Nice ! Clear, logical expert advice. Much appreciated! I've worked on a lot of motorcycle engines before but wasn't sure about the fine details of working on a big twin Evo. This makes it very clear, thanks again.
I wanted to take a moment to say thank you. Your videos are just so helpful full of information you've really Advanced my knowledge of my Sportster because your product and your videos thanks bro
Just got a Harley Sportster recently. Trying to get it tuned up and running right. Before this I never heard of Hammer Performance, I just wasn't in to Motorcycles that much. After seeing this VERY INFORMATIVE VIDEO, I must say. That I am a fan of Hammer Performance. Thank you so much!
Once again thanks for the clear info. I have an ultima ignition and indeed the previous owner had it set at curve#1! When I dismantled the engine I found exactly what Dan here describes, scuffed pistons. I am surprised the pistons held up, as they were KB...also know as KABOOM!!! engine is being fully rebuilt with Wiseco and a programing kit for the ultima so I cam set it exactly as described in the video, only.mine will bring total timing to 28 without having to rotate. 👍👍👍
We're you able to still get the USBcable to program the ultima? I'm out of luck here since they fell out of business. Currently running curve 4 and advance the timing to 28 degrees from the 25 degrees it sits on curve 4. Was hoping to get the cable to get the rpm range increased from 3k to 5k.
This video tutorial was spot on for me. It’s the exact procedure as the instructions that came with the Dynatek kit (plus Hammer Dan’s 2 degree ignition retard step). That .030 measurement was a challenge since I couldn’t get my caliber inside the nose cone. But I think I have it pretty darn close. Thanks for the explanations and great video Dan!
I have learned so much from you guys at Hammer Performance on this channel i almost feel obliged to buy something from you:p When i will upgrade my sporty there will be no brainer who ill choose! Awesome job guys
I had the same exact problem, the status light wouldn’t stay on, it would blink once when I clicked on the run switch, had a buddy help put his finger over he front cylinder and it blew is finger off the hole so I new it was on the compression stoke, got the mark on my crank dead center, the light stayed on and got it static timed perfectly like the video, MAKE SURE ITS ON DTC ON THE COMPRESSION STROKE. 👍👍🔥🔥
Awesome video. You kinda fell off subject of adjusting the big twins/sporsters with the module location being up top when you got into retarding/advancing. But the concept is identical, you just rotate a timing plate rather than the module. Great video. Thank you. Cleared some bs up for me immediately!!
Thanks fo posting a very good and informative video. Well done. Near the end of your video you mentioned Ultima. I have an Ultima 127 ci and when I open the trottle up I stop making power and the motor sounds different. I don't know a lot about motorcycles so I can't give you specific parts information. I did not build the bike and the builder lost all the build sheet information. All I can tell you is low end rpm and power is very strong, but when I open it up it all falls apart. Can I replace the Ultima system with another more friendly brand. I did reference your curve chart for the ultima. Any help would be appreciated and thanks for taking the time to read my comment/question
Thank You for great lesson! My question is if I would use Dyno 2000 ignition with W cams on stock 1200 cc engine with domed pistons and 883 heads . How much I should advance? same like you did ? please advise. Appreciate .
Very informative video helped me to understand timing alot better, i have a 94 electra glide with SE (high compression heads) and im swapping out a stock melted goo plate with the same dyna your using ,should i set it up the same as you are? I heard you say how its safe for a cruising mode as well, i want it to be smooth but have the twist if i desire it.... any help is greatly appreciated, i am a newbie but learnimg as im going i should say. Thank you
From what i know when i bought it i was told it has a screaming eagle high compression heads, had a screaming eagle 8000rpm module and coil(dualfire) , i put a single fire coil, a dyna 2000i and 8.8 pkug wires with high comp plugs, havent started it yet , im at thebpoint of getting tdc and the static timing with the dyna light ,but its upside down
Could you make the same instructional video just with the S&s cycles Hi4N ignition curves? SS made one, but your approach is more deep and shown. Best regards
Hi Dan,I have a 96 sporty, converted to 1200.i bought dyna2000p, and did all that you said on this video, on the dials I have dial 1 off as in voes mode, but what about the other four dials?, which one stays on or off, my bike is misfiring and sputtering, please let me know asap thanks.
Thanks Dan, the bike was misfiring cause i installed the new pick up sensor 180 degrees around, its fixed now , switch 1 is off as ait is now and will adjust the others as you said, i only have 5 in all, thanks again.
out of curiosity if im dynamically timing my 01 stage 1 sportster 1200 , would i be looking for the Full Advance mark (single Dot) in the timing window then setting the curve to 3 ? i could not find what mark i should be using to set up the timing dynamically. i would really appreciate the help.
I got the 2000i installed, stock motor with vance & hines straight shots and open air cleaner. What curve would you suggest and what adjustment would you make? 2001 1200c
With the manual stating 20 degrees btdc, 2 dots in inspection window. Will my ignition work with or like the curves you discuss in the video? 01 xl1200c. Right now with timing light the 2 dots are in center of window.
can you tell me if the ignition module leds will blink while cranking? i have a 2002 sportster and i think the module is bad. Bike loses spark after warm up. Everything else has been replaced...When i crank the bike im not getting led pulse on the module
So iv done ALOT of enhancements to my bike but shes not done yet and i wanna get her on the road already for time being. Bouta put in new ignition, so should i wait to put her on dyno until im done with all upgrades and/or is it okay to run on stock ignition
No, not at all. The 2004+ bikes are all crank trigger and there are no mechanical adjustments. You just plug in the module and set the dials. For all of our engine kits, we specify in the kit installation instructions to set the Daytona Twin Tec TC88A tp initial 2, slope 0.
I'll tell you what, if you're running an S&S motor, you should really consult them for tuning advice. They have a vested interest in your success and presumably they know their product better than anyone else.
The timing window is around 10 degrees on a big twin so if the T:F mark is just entering the window the final advance would be advanced 5 degrees if it’s leaving the window the max advance would be retarded by 5 degrees
Hey HD, on my 01 sportster xl1200c stage 1 set up. Timing is set, I'm trying to set my rpm's with my meter but the numbers are unstable so I tested the meter on my truck and compared it to the tach on it and it's spot on. Any idea what's going on??
Your motor's firing interval is 405 degrees (rear cylinder to front) and 315 degrees (front cylinder to rear). On top of that, your stock ignition setup is a dual-fire, meaning that any time one cylinder fires, the other also gets a (wasted) spark. Bottom line is that any instrument, whether it's hooked up to the coil primary or uses an inductive pickup on a plug wire, is seeing both twice as many sparks as it should and they're also coming at odd intervals. Unless the instrument knows how a Harley works, it can't make sense out of what's going on. It's a common issue when using automotive based engine analyzers and dial back timing lights.
Wanting to do this to my 99 1200s. It's got the dual plug heads, and the performance cam from the factory. I'm not sure what aftermarket cam it is similar to. But what's your thoughts on single fire vs dual fire? What's better?
The stock ignition on a 1200S is dual plug, single fire. Generally speaking, single fire does not add power to a typical street bike. There are situations where it adds just a little bit though, specifically when you have an effective overlap event (i.e. strong exhaust augmented intake flow). There's a long explanation about that. The stock cams in your bike are "W" cams. W cams first came out in the 1998 1200S and continued through the end of the 1200S in 2003. But then all XL1200's started coming from the factory with W cams beginning in 2004, and then all XL883's started coming with W cams beginning in 2007. So it's a very very common grind. Although it's better than the "D" cams that all the other bikes got, it's still a really really mild cam grind. It's timing is oriented toward the lower rpm part of the power band. You can see a chart that compares the W cams to the D cams and the N2 cams here: www.hammerperf.com/883conversions.shtml#faq1
@@HAMMERPERFORMANCE awesome! Thanks for the info! Wasn't sure if I'd get a response from an old video. You guys are great! I plan on buying just a 1275 jug kit from you guys down the line when the funds are there. What would be a good drop in cam to go with it? Would be using the stock heads with no head work done.
Well, the Ultima module implements different curves from the Dyna 2000i, that's the difference. All the switch functions are the same, but the curves are different. You can see the ultima's curves here: www.aswracing.com/ultimacurves.jpg and the Dyna's curves here: www.aswracing.com/dyna2000curves.jpg . Curve 4 on the Dyna 2000 is perfect for our kits and makes the most power and the motor runs cool an it's safe for the pistons. The Ultima however doesn't really have a curve that's suitable for our kits and when we have a customer who wants to use the Ultima, we advise him to get the programming kit and program up a custom curve that looks like the Dyna 2000's curve 4.
@@HAMMERPERFORMANCE what would be best for a 79 shovelhead, will a Ultima work best or one of yours? And how much for one of yours with an external module?
@@HAMMERPERFORMANCE i dont run a kit from you sadly. I just have a 883/1200 12:1 bigger valve headwork with around 105 rwhp engine. I've used the Ultima on the engine as a 883/1200 all last year for dragracing without problems.
Can these older evo engines have a lot of timing advance thrown at them without grenading the engine? I know 28 is already pretty aggressive for these engines, but can you add more without disaster?
They’re not advancing the timing, they’re RETARDING it, moving it from 30 degrees BTDC, to 28 degrees BTDC, which means that the plug will fire LATER rather than EARLIER, which will prevent pre-ignition (aka: ping). I know that it LOOKS like this is advancing the timing because 28 comes before 30, but if you think of the degrees BTDC like telling the time on a clock, you will see that 30 minutes to 10, is EARLIER than 28 minutes to 10 and therefore 30 degrees BTDC is EARLIER (advanced) than 28 degrees BTDC (retarded) It takes a bit to thought to work through this stuff, but a slow walk through what is actually happening at the flywheel as the piston rises on the compression stroke will help.
The ideal time to light the fire is a function of the speed of the burn. These kits have a very fast burn and therefore make max power with a soft curve to match. A more aggressive curve makes less power, makes the motor run hotter, and puts the pistons at risk of damage. See this sheet for a typical example of what happens when you advance the curve: www.aswracing.com/dyna2000results.gif . Curve 1 on that sheet is the most aggressive curve and curve 4 is the softest.
I've noting but trouble with this ignition to time . I've had on TDC its a 99 big dog with SS on it . I can't red light to come now so I'm not sure what the heck is going on. TDC has marks t ... f on flywheel but I've a hell of a time. Also on my coil do I need to ground Vos wire even tho I don't have that on my bike .
Leave your VOES line open if you're not using a switch. Most of the time, when someone reports this symptom to us, it's because that although they have the key on, they forgot that the run/stop switch (on the handlebar) also has to be on for the module to have power. But another possibility is that you're on the wrong TDC. A 4-stroke motor requires two full revolutions to go through all 4 strokes. That means it passes through TDC twice. One of those TDC's is between the exhaust and intake stroke, what we call "overlap TDC". You don't want that one. You want the one between the compression stroke and the power stroke, i.e. "compression TDC". So if you're sure your module has power and the red light is not coming on, turn the motor over one full revolution to get onto the other TDC and try again.
I have a screamin eagle module on my 00 sportster, according to its manual, you have to turn the baseplate until red light came on. You turned it until it goes out, than back, so it just came on in your engine too. So is my bike at 28 degrees now? Bike starts easy and runs strong. See Figure 3. Slowly rotate module plate until red LED illuminates, then tighten module plate screws to 15-30 in-lbs (1.7-3.4 Nm). How can I make sure its perfect? I am running 10.5 to 1 compresson 1200 dished pistons with 883 heads and W cams. I dont want to destroy my engine with cranking pressure.
All the static timing procedure does for you is sets the baseline for the curves implemented by the module. In other words, after following the static timing procedure, your available curves will match the diagram shown in the module's instructions. Yes, the static timing procedure varies from one module to another. We're only showing the procedure for the Dyna 2000 series modules in this video - although several other modules use the same procedure, but not all. There have been a number of different SE modules sold over the years. Unfortunately, most did not include curve data in their instructions. So you really don't know what you're getting. Aftermarket modules always include curve data so you know what you've got after properly static timing. Curve number 4 on a Dyna 2000/2000i module, after properly setting the static timing, is what we specify for our kits, because it produces maximum power and is safe for the pistons. This video is all about showing our customers how to set the module to achieve that. Incorrect setting of the ignition timing is the number one cause of scuffed pistons and we simply can't afford to have our customers making that mistake. So we want to show them exactly what to do. Unfortunately, all too many people are under the mistaken impression that more spark advance equates to more power so long as it's not pinging. We've dyno tested these bikes to death and nothing could be further from the truth. Running the timing up, with more aggressive curves and/or more final advance than we specify, makes the motor lose power, run hotter, and puts the pistons at risk.
Hi , On a 1995 Softail evolution stock engine with a kick starter only should I do that (retarding the way you did ) for easier kickstart? Thank very good video 👍🙏
What am I doing wrong? I've lined the mark up on the front cylinder but no red light. When I do get a red light there are 2 dots in the crank window. I thought I was 180 out ? Should I time off the rear cylinder or have I got the wrong timing cup?(2 cut outs)
How did you go about determining which TDC (overlap or compression) you're on? If you choose randomly, you've got a 50-50 chance of being on the wrong one.
Turned the module clockwise as far as it will go. The red light stays on., I can't turn it any farther. Thinking of drilling out the slots to give me more room to turn, Or should I change the dip settings to a different curve. Stock 89 Harley EVO, no mods. Note the previous dual fire module was turned all the way when I removed it. The bike runs good set like this. Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
I took the module out and drilled the slots to give me more room to turn. That didn't help. The module hits the set screws and can't be turned any farther. If I take the screws out I can see that I am only a couple of thousands away from it being in time . The light does go out without the screws. Note, I had this engine completely rebuilt by the Harley Stealership about 10 years ago. I do have a timing light and an old tach, I may hook the tach up and see if that gives me any different results. Like I said the bike runs good, no more backfiring, shifts much smoother and overall runs much much better. I should have done this years ago. Anyway, the old saying goes. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" Thanks for the reply and interest.
@@RobtJude And you're sure you're on Compression TDC, not overlap TDC, right? Every guy who's ever asked me about this particular issue, that's what it's turned out to be, not understanding how to get on the correct TDC.
I do have a compression tester. Time permitting this weekend I will try one more time. By using the compression tester, I will be able to discern that I am on the compression stroke 1st cylinder at TDC. I expect that I will need to use the starter to turn the engine. Once it starts compressing I will pull the tester from the spark plug hole and continue rotating manually. I hope you are right. If not I am still very happy with the way it is running. Update to follow. Thanks again for the help.
Why not measure the inside circumstance of the timing and cam cover inspection hole in milimeters and convert to degrees, eg, 360mm / 360° , then felt pen or scribe mark the cover and module, and then move by the millimeter. 2mm = 2°
We don't have any millimeters around here, in fact I'm not sure they let them into the country. Pretty sure Customs confiscates them all at the border. But we have inches and they're better anyway. The plate is 3 inches in diameter, which is a 9.425 inch circumference. One rotation of the timing cup is 720 crankshaft degrees - remember, the cams run at half the crankshaft speed. So each degree is 9.425 inches divided by 720 = .013 inches per degree at the perimeter of the plate.
@@HAMMERPERFORMANCE Oh ok thats even tighter, lamo, your lucky, we're like a giant pudding bowl with a bit of everything thrown in lol. I was looking for greater moor course movement at the front 'of' to make it easier to see, and mark off exact degrees ect. thanx so much for your time, your the man lol..
I dont have any ping issues, I do also have higher compression with the +300dome pistons, running 93 no issues check the plugs regularly heat range and timing all look good, I also do dynamic tyming with it running.
thanks. I seen a sorta inconclusive vid showing it towards the rear, and it DID start first kick, but I always kept mine in the center, was just curious as to if it made any better performance or starting gains. Never can have TOO much knowledge
2004+ Sportsters have crank triggered ignitions. There are no mechanical adjustments for the timing at all. This video only applies to Sportsters through 2003.
None of the Ultima's built in curves are very good for our 1250 & 1275 kits. When an Ultima owner wants to use one of our kits, we suggest he get the programming kit so that he can build a curve similar to the Dyna 2000 curve 4.
@@HAMMERPERFORMANCE so im guessing a ultima module is best fit for a stage 1 or two 1200 ? Anymore more than 1200 a 200i is better cause of the curves ?
@@Horrented The Ultima's curves are too aggressive for a motor with a fast burn (high compression and/or a turbulent chamber). It's not a function of motor size, it's a function of compression and chamber turbulence.
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Thank you for your informative videos. Many mechanics probly mad at you for making it look so easy. But I really appreciate you
Nice ! Clear, logical expert advice. Much appreciated! I've worked on a lot of motorcycle engines before but wasn't sure about the fine details of working on a big twin Evo. This makes it very clear, thanks again.
I wanted to take a moment to say thank you. Your videos are just so helpful full of information you've really Advanced my knowledge of my Sportster because your product and your videos thanks bro
Just got a Harley Sportster recently. Trying to get it tuned up and running right. Before this I never heard of Hammer Performance, I just wasn't in to Motorcycles that much. After seeing this VERY INFORMATIVE VIDEO, I must say. That I am a fan of Hammer Performance. Thank you so much!
Once again thanks for the clear info. I have an ultima ignition and indeed the previous owner had it set at curve#1! When I dismantled the engine I found exactly what Dan here describes, scuffed pistons. I am surprised the pistons held up, as they were KB...also know as KABOOM!!! engine is being fully rebuilt with Wiseco and a programing kit for the ultima so I cam set it exactly as described in the video, only.mine will bring total timing to 28 without having to rotate. 👍👍👍
We're you able to still get the USBcable to program the ultima? I'm out of luck here since they fell out of business. Currently running curve 4 and advance the timing to 28 degrees from the 25 degrees it sits on curve 4. Was hoping to get the cable to get the rpm range increased from 3k to 5k.
Just cured my buell ping with this! Thank you so much. Nowhere could I find that you use the slot timing mark. Awesome
This video tutorial was spot on for me. It’s the exact procedure as the instructions that came with the Dynatek kit (plus Hammer Dan’s 2 degree ignition retard step). That .030 measurement was a challenge since I couldn’t get my caliber inside the nose cone. But I think I have it pretty darn close. Thanks for the explanations and great video Dan!
Your channel and the sportster how to’s have really saved me and my 1200c from both pulling our hair out.
Best video on utube on static timing so far I have the 2000! On my bike ty
I have learned so much from you guys at Hammer Performance on this channel i almost feel obliged to buy something from you:p When i will upgrade my sporty there will be no brainer who ill choose! Awesome job guys
Another great lesson. Look forward to the next one.
I had the same exact problem, the status light wouldn’t stay on, it would blink once when I clicked on the run switch, had a buddy help put his finger over he front cylinder and it blew is finger off the hole so I new it was on the compression stoke, got the mark on my crank dead center, the light stayed on and got it static timed perfectly like the video, MAKE SURE ITS ON DTC ON THE COMPRESSION STROKE. 👍👍🔥🔥
Great video and details! Thank you!
Nicely done, very clear and to the point!
Love the videos, thank you 👍
Looking forward to being a customer 😎
You guys should make a tool that lines that timing notch up perfectly.
Awesome video. You kinda fell off subject of adjusting the big twins/sporsters with the module location being up top when you got into retarding/advancing. But the concept is identical, you just rotate a timing plate rather than the module. Great video. Thank you. Cleared some bs up for me immediately!!
Great video, keep up the excellent work!
Thank you Guys for making these videos! 👍
Great vid 👍 very well done. Thanks for the info
Nice-better go back out side and look for that machined mark on my 2000 sportster 883 hugger-thanks!
Thanks fo posting a very good and informative video. Well done. Near the end of your video you mentioned Ultima. I have an Ultima 127 ci and when I open the trottle up I stop making power and the motor sounds different. I don't know a lot about motorcycles so I can't give you specific parts information. I did not build the bike and the builder lost all the build sheet information. All I can tell you is low end rpm and power is very strong, but when I open it up it all falls apart. Can I replace the Ultima system with another more friendly brand. I did reference your curve chart for the ultima. Any help would be appreciated and thanks for taking the time to read my comment/question
Thank You for great lesson! My question is if I would use Dyno 2000 ignition with W cams on stock 1200 cc engine with domed pistons and 883 heads . How much I should advance? same like you did ? please advise. Appreciate .
Very informative video helped me to understand timing alot better, i have a 94 electra glide with SE (high compression heads) and im swapping out a stock melted goo plate with the same dyna your using ,should i set it up the same as you are? I heard you say how its safe for a cruising mode as well, i want it to be smooth but have the twist if i desire it.... any help is greatly appreciated, i am a newbie but learnimg as im going i should say.
Thank you
what all mods have been done to the bike? That will kinda determine where to setup the ignition module.
From what i know when i bought it i was told it has a screaming eagle high compression heads, had a screaming eagle 8000rpm module and coil(dualfire) , i put a single fire coil, a dyna 2000i and 8.8 pkug wires with high comp plugs, havent started it yet , im at thebpoint of getting tdc and the static timing with the dyna light ,but its upside down
Great video. Are the switch settings different for the Twin Tech ignition?
Thanks Dan and Ross!!
Do you have a video on how to install the dynatek 2000i ? By the way, love your products and channel!! Thank you!
It’s the same product, with a different label.
Yeah very good video I might be doing that real soon very informative thank you
Amazing info. Thanks so much!
My '89 Sportster had the timing inspection plug on the other side of the bike. Setting the timing was a two man job.
Could you make the same instructional video just with the S&s cycles Hi4N ignition curves? SS made one, but your approach is more deep and shown. Best regards
Hi can you make a video about the VOES. Can you ditch it or not. Can you disconnect it from the petcock and attach it directly to the carb? and so on.
If you're turning the module ccw so the light comes on earlier are you not advancing the base timing?
Very helpful video.thanks
Hi Dan,I have a 96 sporty, converted to 1200.i bought dyna2000p, and did all that you said on this video, on the dials I have dial 1 off as in voes mode, but what about the other four dials?, which one stays on or off, my bike is misfiring and sputtering, please let me know asap thanks.
Switch 1 is Off, switch 2 & 3 are ON, Switch 4 is Off, switch 5 is ON, switch 6 is off hope this helps
Thanks Dan, the bike was misfiring cause i installed the new pick up sensor 180 degrees around, its fixed now , switch 1 is off as ait is now and will adjust the others as you said, i only have 5 in all, thanks again.
Awesome man that is really good service right there AAA+++
out of curiosity if im dynamically timing my 01 stage 1 sportster 1200 , would i be looking for the Full Advance mark (single Dot) in the timing window then setting the curve to 3 ? i could not find what mark i should be using to set up the timing dynamically. i would really appreciate the help.
Did you leave voes hooked up, and what do you think about adjusting the voes?
I got the 2000i installed, stock motor with vance & hines straight shots and open air cleaner. What curve would you suggest and what adjustment would you make? 2001 1200c
Good info 👍
With the manual stating 20 degrees btdc, 2 dots in inspection window. Will my ignition work with or like the curves you discuss in the video? 01 xl1200c. Right now with timing light the 2 dots are in center of window.
can you tell me if the ignition module leds will blink while cranking? i have a 2002 sportster and i think the module is bad. Bike loses spark after warm up. Everything else has been replaced...When i crank the bike im not getting led pulse on the module
To get timing mark, forward the tire only not the other way.
Question
Is my top dead center the vertical line or the circle? On my own..
So iv done ALOT of enhancements to my bike but shes not done yet and i wanna get her on the road already for time being. Bouta put in new ignition, so should i wait to put her on dyno until im done with all upgrades and/or is it okay to run on stock ignition
When did Harley put the timing hole there ?
Major question for you , my pickup needs to be upside down to register and light up on a 94 electra glide, is that normal?
So the TDC is on the front cylinder?
So i have 2006 sportster, would adjusting Daytona twintec be similar procedure?
No, not at all. The 2004+ bikes are all crank trigger and there are no mechanical adjustments. You just plug in the module and set the dials. For all of our engine kits, we specify in the kit installation instructions to set the Daytona Twin Tec TC88A tp initial 2, slope 0.
@@HAMMERPERFORMANCE Awsome that bit easier. Thanks
Hi Guy's thank a lot for the lessons, can you give me your advice for a v96 evo s&s engine with this ignition ? 🙏
I'll tell you what, if you're running an S&S motor, you should really consult them for tuning advice. They have a vested interest in your success and presumably they know their product better than anyone else.
@@HAMMERPERFORMANCE thanks a lot
The timing window is around 10 degrees on a big twin so if the T:F mark is just entering the window the final advance would be advanced 5 degrees if it’s leaving the window the max advance would be retarded by 5 degrees
I believe that set up has rev limits set at 500 intervals. Did you drop to 6500 or increase to 7k?
Hi Mike
I set it as high as it would go without going in and reprogramming it. I set it to 7500 RPM
Can i use this setup on my 81 shovelhead stock 1340?
Been running 2000i on my shovel for 25 years now.
Hey HD, on my 01 sportster xl1200c stage 1 set up. Timing is set, I'm trying to set my rpm's with my meter but the numbers are unstable so I tested the meter on my truck and compared it to the tach on it and it's spot on. Any idea what's going on??
Your motor's firing interval is 405 degrees (rear cylinder to front) and 315 degrees (front cylinder to rear). On top of that, your stock ignition setup is a dual-fire, meaning that any time one cylinder fires, the other also gets a (wasted) spark. Bottom line is that any instrument, whether it's hooked up to the coil primary or uses an inductive pickup on a plug wire, is seeing both twice as many sparks as it should and they're also coming at odd intervals. Unless the instrument knows how a Harley works, it can't make sense out of what's going on. It's a common issue when using automotive based engine analyzers and dial back timing lights.
Wanting to do this to my 99 1200s. It's got the dual plug heads, and the performance cam from the factory. I'm not sure what aftermarket cam it is similar to. But what's your thoughts on single fire vs dual fire? What's better?
The stock ignition on a 1200S is dual plug, single fire. Generally speaking, single fire does not add power to a typical street bike. There are situations where it adds just a little bit though, specifically when you have an effective overlap event (i.e. strong exhaust augmented intake flow). There's a long explanation about that. The stock cams in your bike are "W" cams. W cams first came out in the 1998 1200S and continued through the end of the 1200S in 2003. But then all XL1200's started coming from the factory with W cams beginning in 2004, and then all XL883's started coming with W cams beginning in 2007. So it's a very very common grind. Although it's better than the "D" cams that all the other bikes got, it's still a really really mild cam grind. It's timing is oriented toward the lower rpm part of the power band. You can see a chart that compares the W cams to the D cams and the N2 cams here: www.hammerperf.com/883conversions.shtml#faq1
@@HAMMERPERFORMANCE awesome! Thanks for the info! Wasn't sure if I'd get a response from an old video. You guys are great! I plan on buying just a 1275 jug kit from you guys down the line when the funds are there. What would be a good drop in cam to go with it? Would be using the stock heads with no head work done.
Did you still have the voes installed?
i got the ultima on my dragbike.. thats ok right? since i kinda dont need the crusin part hehe
Well, the Ultima module implements different curves from the Dyna 2000i, that's the difference. All the switch functions are the same, but the curves are different. You can see the ultima's curves here: www.aswracing.com/ultimacurves.jpg and the Dyna's curves here: www.aswracing.com/dyna2000curves.jpg . Curve 4 on the Dyna 2000 is perfect for our kits and makes the most power and the motor runs cool an it's safe for the pistons. The Ultima however doesn't really have a curve that's suitable for our kits and when we have a customer who wants to use the Ultima, we advise him to get the programming kit and program up a custom curve that looks like the Dyna 2000's curve 4.
@@HAMMERPERFORMANCE what would be best for a 79 shovelhead, will a Ultima work best or one of yours? And how much for one of yours with an external module?
@@HAMMERPERFORMANCE I don't run voes on the dragbike since it's a all our race bike so the curve dosent really matter right ?
@@nikolaiownz Absolutely it matters. The kit will be damaged if the curve is not correct. See our kit installation instructions.
@@HAMMERPERFORMANCE i dont run a kit from you sadly. I just have a 883/1200 12:1 bigger valve headwork with around 105 rwhp engine. I've used the Ultima on the engine as a 883/1200 all last year for dragracing without problems.
Can these older evo engines have a lot of timing advance thrown at them without grenading the engine? I know 28 is already pretty aggressive for these engines, but can you add more without disaster?
They’re not advancing the timing, they’re RETARDING it, moving it from 30 degrees BTDC, to 28 degrees BTDC, which means that the plug will fire LATER rather than EARLIER, which will prevent pre-ignition (aka: ping). I know that it LOOKS like this is advancing the timing because 28 comes before 30, but if you think of the degrees BTDC like telling the time on a clock, you will see that 30 minutes to 10, is EARLIER than 28 minutes to 10 and therefore 30 degrees BTDC is EARLIER (advanced) than 28 degrees BTDC (retarded)
It takes a bit to thought to work through this stuff, but a slow walk through what is actually happening at the flywheel as the piston rises on the compression stroke will help.
For full race application wouldent u want the timing to come in fast
The ideal time to light the fire is a function of the speed of the burn. These kits have a very fast burn and therefore make max power with a soft curve to match. A more aggressive curve makes less power, makes the motor run hotter, and puts the pistons at risk of damage. See this sheet for a typical example of what happens when you advance the curve: www.aswracing.com/dyna2000results.gif . Curve 1 on that sheet is the most aggressive curve and curve 4 is the softest.
I've noting but trouble with this ignition to time . I've had on TDC its a 99 big dog with SS on it . I can't red light to come now so I'm not sure what the heck is going on. TDC has marks t ... f on flywheel but I've a hell of a time. Also on my coil do I need to ground Vos wire even tho I don't have that on my bike .
Leave your VOES line open if you're not using a switch.
Most of the time, when someone reports this symptom to us, it's because that although they have the key on, they forgot that the run/stop switch (on the handlebar) also has to be on for the module to have power.
But another possibility is that you're on the wrong TDC. A 4-stroke motor requires two full revolutions to go through all 4 strokes. That means it passes through TDC twice. One of those TDC's is between the exhaust and intake stroke, what we call "overlap TDC". You don't want that one. You want the one between the compression stroke and the power stroke, i.e. "compression TDC". So if you're sure your module has power and the red light is not coming on, turn the motor over one full revolution to get onto the other TDC and try again.
I have a screamin eagle module on my 00 sportster, according to its manual, you have to turn the baseplate until red light came on. You turned it until it goes out, than back, so it just came on in your engine too.
So is my bike at 28 degrees now? Bike starts easy and runs strong.
See Figure 3. Slowly rotate module plate until red LED illuminates, then tighten module plate screws to 15-30 in-lbs (1.7-3.4 Nm).
How can I make sure its perfect? I am running 10.5 to 1 compresson 1200 dished pistons with 883 heads and W cams.
I dont want to destroy my engine with cranking pressure.
All the static timing procedure does for you is sets the baseline for the curves implemented by the module. In other words, after following the static timing procedure, your available curves will match the diagram shown in the module's instructions. Yes, the static timing procedure varies from one module to another. We're only showing the procedure for the Dyna 2000 series modules in this video - although several other modules use the same procedure, but not all.
There have been a number of different SE modules sold over the years. Unfortunately, most did not include curve data in their instructions. So you really don't know what you're getting. Aftermarket modules always include curve data so you know what you've got after properly static timing.
Curve number 4 on a Dyna 2000/2000i module, after properly setting the static timing, is what we specify for our kits, because it produces maximum power and is safe for the pistons. This video is all about showing our customers how to set the module to achieve that. Incorrect setting of the ignition timing is the number one cause of scuffed pistons and we simply can't afford to have our customers making that mistake. So we want to show them exactly what to do.
Unfortunately, all too many people are under the mistaken impression that more spark advance equates to more power so long as it's not pinging. We've dyno tested these bikes to death and nothing could be further from the truth. Running the timing up, with more aggressive curves and/or more final advance than we specify, makes the motor lose power, run hotter, and puts the pistons at risk.
I tried that. The LED don't come on at all anymore. It came on at first but only in full advance(clockwise)
Why is my red light in flashing mode key on killer switch on run and cant get it off when rotating module.and it won't start either.
Hi ,
On a 1995 Softail evolution stock engine with a kick starter only should I do that (retarding the way you did ) for easier kickstart?
Thank very good video 👍🙏
What am I doing wrong? I've lined the mark up on the front cylinder but no red light. When I do get a red light there are 2 dots in the crank window. I thought I was 180 out ? Should I time off the rear cylinder or have I got the wrong timing cup?(2 cut outs)
How did you go about determining which TDC (overlap or compression) you're on? If you choose randomly, you've got a 50-50 chance of being on the wrong one.
@@HAMMERPERFORMANCE shall I test every tdc? Which is what I thought I'd done.
@@brittenv1000 If it was me, I'd just put it on compression TDC. HAMMER Dan shows how to find compression TDC in the video.
What's the hose coming from the push rod tube at 8:54
Idle adjustment to the carb.
Turned the module clockwise as far as it will go. The red light stays on., I can't turn it any farther. Thinking of drilling out the slots to give me more room to turn, Or should I change the dip settings to a different curve. Stock 89 Harley EVO, no mods. Note the previous dual fire module was turned all the way when I removed it. The bike runs good set like this. Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Which TDC are you on?
I took the module out and drilled the slots to give me more room to turn. That didn't help. The module hits the set screws and can't be turned any farther. If I take the screws out I can see that I am only a couple of thousands away from it being in time . The light does go out without the screws. Note, I had this engine completely rebuilt by the Harley Stealership about 10 years ago. I do have a timing light and an old tach, I may hook the tach up and see if that gives me any different results. Like I said the bike runs good, no more backfiring, shifts much smoother and overall runs much much better. I should have done this years ago. Anyway, the old saying goes. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" Thanks for the reply and interest.
@@RobtJude And you're sure you're on Compression TDC, not overlap TDC, right? Every guy who's ever asked me about this particular issue, that's what it's turned out to be, not understanding how to get on the correct TDC.
I do have a compression tester. Time permitting this weekend I will try one more time. By using the compression tester, I will be able to discern that I am on the compression stroke 1st cylinder at TDC. I expect that I will need to use the starter to turn the engine. Once it starts compressing I will pull the tester from the spark plug hole and continue rotating manually. I hope you are right. If not I am still very happy with the way it is running. Update to follow. Thanks again for the help.
@@RobtJude A compression tester sounds like an awfully difficult and error prone way to do it. What's wrong with the way that's shown in the video?
Would I be able to static time 2001 xl1200c with the big ignition module in nose cone? The machine mark is TDC but I do have the 2 dots also?
Yes, your HD service manual describes the procedure.
It actually doesn't mention anything about static timing
Just about the 2 dots and timing light. 20 degrees btdc, I have an adjustable timing light do I set to 20 degrees or leave it at 0
Why not measure the inside circumstance of the timing and cam cover inspection hole in milimeters and convert to degrees, eg, 360mm / 360° , then felt pen or scribe mark the cover and module, and then move by the millimeter. 2mm = 2°
We don't have any millimeters around here, in fact I'm not sure they let them into the country. Pretty sure Customs confiscates them all at the border. But we have inches and they're better anyway. The plate is 3 inches in diameter, which is a 9.425 inch circumference. One rotation of the timing cup is 720 crankshaft degrees - remember, the cams run at half the crankshaft speed. So each degree is 9.425 inches divided by 720 = .013 inches per degree at the perimeter of the plate.
@@HAMMERPERFORMANCE
Oh ok thats even tighter, lamo, your lucky, we're like a giant pudding bowl with a bit of everything thrown in lol.
I was looking for greater moor course movement at the front 'of' to make it easier to see, and mark off exact degrees ect.
thanx so much for your time, your the man lol..
I definitely run curve one 🤷
I dont have any ping issues, I do also have higher compression with the +300dome pistons, running 93 no issues check the plugs regularly heat range and timing all look good, I also do dynamic tyming with it running.
What about the switches?
This thing is a hundred times easier to tune than a Mallory . Mallory instructions are bad too !
always in the center? never just a little towards the rear of the window?
Only if you want to reduce power and risk damaging the pistons.
thanks. I seen a sorta inconclusive vid showing it towards the rear, and it DID start first kick, but I always kept mine in the center, was just curious as to if it made any better performance or starting gains. Never can have TOO much knowledge
So maybe my bike is special but my 04 883 doesn’t have the inspection hole to see the mark.
2004+ Sportsters have crank triggered ignitions. There are no mechanical adjustments for the timing at all. This video only applies to Sportsters through 2003.
@@HAMMERPERFORMANCE awesome thank y’all for the information.
30 thousanths is also about the thickness of a credit card.
that's Awesome! Good to know!
Or welding wire on a small household flux wire welder
sound is broken
So are the utima no good I just bought a kit ....every one say they good....183 for a kit
None of the Ultima's built in curves are very good for our 1250 & 1275 kits. When an Ultima owner wants to use one of our kits, we suggest he get the programming kit so that he can build a curve similar to the Dyna 2000 curve 4.
@@HAMMERPERFORMANCE so im guessing a ultima module is best fit for a stage 1 or two 1200 ? Anymore more than 1200 a 200i is better cause of the curves ?
@@Horrented The Ultima's curves are too aggressive for a motor with a fast burn (high compression and/or a turbulent chamber). It's not a function of motor size, it's a function of compression and chamber turbulence.
What if the light doesn't come on?