So…we going to do a follow up video where you compare a “full” 40k army vs full alternate armies? Plus books and everything else needed to play? The alternate games needed WAY more to get even close to 40k prices
It still makes 40k the most expensive game by far because the standard game size is way more than the other games. You also have to keep in mind that games workshop charges a fortune for all the books that you need, so that's another hidden expense. Finally, the last thing to consider is that games workshop is basically the one setting the prices in the industry. They dominate the market and other games only have to be a little less expensive than them.
@@Quin-du6gl while nobody is forcing anyone to play 2k, it's the standard for events at game stores. Youll likely be excluded from a lot of you don't have 2k. And yes, it's not cheap to have a whole miniatures range, but GW's markup is A LOT. They sell enough of them that it becomes hard to excuse a squad of cadians almost quadrupling in price over 15 years (far exceeding inflation). You don't need to defend the multi-billion dollar company that is dominating the market and making it difficult for smaller companies to compete with.
@@Quin-du6gl nah, the standard game is 2K, yes you can have fun with 1K, but 2K double the fun, also you have more room to use several class of units, vehicles or characters, the missions are designed for 2k armies so you need several units to contr objectives, thing that in 1k you can't do it, because at least 200-300 points are gonna be for a couple of characters.
@@11AleZZ Yep, and the game is also actually balanced for 2k play, not 1k play or even combat patrol (though they're trying to fix this with a separate game mode). And you can go much more character-heavy at 1k than 2k, relatively speaking, and characters are often the best way to get as many points as possible at the lowest price possible.
and that's why TT games are not going fully mainstream. All the competitors need to do is have good rules and charge a reasonable price, but greed hampers their own success. They make TT look like a premium hobby and turns most people away
That Legion list seems about 100 points more than you need, considering you likely want points left for upgrades. You could easily drop the Dewback and third Stormtrooper squad and still have 10 activations. Plus you're comparing a full size Legion army to a 40K army size that is half of the usual game size. I'd say a 500pt skirmish list is a bit more fair of a comparison. So I feel like Legion is a better deal than is made out here. Just my 2 cents 😉
On the face, 40K seems more like the price tag than the name of the game. I got into it just this year because my partner used to play it 20+ years ago before we met, I wanted something we could do together away from the computer, and we both like to paint and make dioramas. I'm in about $2,000 at this point and my wish list gets longer rather than shorter. Sticker shock for sure. Although when I really think about it, most of my hobbies have been comparably "expensive". It's a matter of perspective. When I was younger and wearing makeup daily, I would think nothing of spending $65 on an eyeshadow palette, or $100 on a set of brushes. I was hitting Sephora/Ulta every other week to the tune of $200 or so. My biggest year I spent close to $7,000 on "beauty" products - with nothing to show for it. Thinking about all of my other hobbies and their required tools and materials, same thing. Arts and crafts are easy to underestimate because it's a lot of small transactions tucked in among normal household purchases -- 40K costs are fewer but larger and therefore more "obvious". I would say if you want to do this as a hobby you're looking at $500 easy for building/painting supplies, another $500 for starter sets and key pieces, and then you can go from a few hundred more into multiple thousands more depending on how many of the models/game variants pique your interests. I wish it was less expensive. I can say I get enough enjoyment out of the experience to make it an acceptable expense.
Similar conclusion I came to after years of online video game friends buying me Warhammer games or always talking about it, I thought maybe it's time for some new hobbies, a big part of that is because I have been a car enthusiast most of my life and you get older and sometime priorities change and Warhammer is pretty much chump change compared to that! So perspective absolutely is huge for some and i totally get those already deep in the hobby when they see the price increases and see all the other cheaper alternatives is like a huge wtf i also understand some people maybe be on really tight budgets and Warhammer might be the one joy they get in their free time and it's like this constant voice in their head why isn't this cheaper?
I started in around 2005 when the boxes came with more models and cost about £12.50 from Games Workshop, and even then that was seen as quite a hike from their last prices, as I was bitterly disappointed to find out at the time. From then inflation has been 68%, people's pay on average has risen around 38% in that time, warhammer prices have risen 300 percent and you get less models.
You hit the main point I don't see mentioned enough. It's not just about inflation, it's about what people are bringing home. Folks' wages have on average been stagnant for a long long time. If wages kept up with inflation, and GW raised prices according to inflation there wouldn't really be an issue, but that's just not happening. Not even close.
Back in 97 when 3rd dropped I was able to talk friends into playing by saying "$100 will get you playing but you'll need glue and paint. DakkaDakka has store copies of all the books so you only need to buy them if you want to read them at home". Back then a box of 10 Marines was $25. A rhino was $25. Terminators were like $35 for 5. I remember being pissed that plastic dreads were $10 more than the metal ones. I think the 3rd ed starter was $125 and it came with the rule book, dice, whippy sticks, templates, quick reference sheet, terrain, a limited edition captain (not really), 10 Marines, a land speeder, 10 or maybe 20 dark Eldar and some other stuff for them... Honestly they just ended up in bits boxes. I bought the 3rd ed assassin codex for $8. The greatest deal GW ever had was the Black Templar Army Box from 3rd. It came with so much crap for like $200. Emperor's champion, marshal, 10 Marines, 5 assault marines, a rhino, a land raider crusader, and so on and so on.
The only problem with this math is that 40k is at 1,000 points. And everyone plays at 2,000 primarily. Poorhammer did a podcast episode where they were saying “who can get a 2k point army for under $500” and they really only came up with the Custodes and Grey Knight because of liberal combat patrol use. Space marines got close but struggled (granted this was end of 9th so marines were going cheap). These days I bet it’s still those 3 only. Knights surprisingly didn’t make it.
And I honestly can't name another TT wargame much less TT game which 40k is now marketed as where a normal army/everything you need to play standard costs more then $200.
@@GreenBlueWalkthroughexactly! My preferred game is Heavy Gear. A starter set is $65-$80 usd and comes with the equivalent of 2000-4000 points in 40k!! Pdf rules are free online and there is a free army builder. A two player set is ~$100 and has two 1500 (40k equivalent) armies and a printed book. Printed books are $25 for small and $40 for full sized. 40k and GW are not the norm in pricing
@@GreenBlueWalkthroughStar Wars legion probably exceeds $200, especially when you factor in you cannot possibly have the dice ahead of time and need to buy their dice. I want to say even his example exceeds $200. Kings of War probably pushes you over $200 for standard format. The mega army boxes are super good value though and get you most of the way there. I think $300 is a more realistic army budget for games that are not GW.
The thing is though jumping in at the deep end with a 2k army is one of the worst ways to start the hobby for most people, it's a really easy way to get overloaded with information, waste a bunch of money building a terrible list, and want to quit. 1000 points is the best place to start since it gives you the experience of a real game, is less investment, and you get a better idea of how to build up to 2k. Most people will understand if you're new and want to play a smaller game, trying to do a 2k game with someone who doesn't know how to play is not a fun experience for the person who does.
When it comes to rank and flank fantasy games, there's one big budget thing to consider. It's that while some of the games sell their own mini's, some are also miniature agnostic so you can use other minis if you wish. For example, a box of Mantic Elf Tallspears are $37.50 for 20 while a box of Northstar Elf Infantry are about $32.00 for 30 minis, and either one is fine to use in Kings of War. Also, one big advantage that Mantic's Kings of War has is that it's optional unit basing rules (i.e. one big base for the whole unit) also allows you to short the number of minis on the unit base (as model removal isn't a thing). So while an infantry regiment may be 20 guys, you can spread them out a little and get away with 15 on the unit base. So that one box of Northstar mini's mentioned above could make 2 regiments while the Mantic box could only make one regiment with with 5 guys left over. Finally, when you mentioned that for the other games the lists you created was pretty much the standard 'big' game for the system, I wonder what you think of Mantic bringing back their 'big game' rule set Warpath which will now be in a more 'Epic' scale.
As long as GW have the majority of the wargaming market their pricing strategy won't change.😢 The problem with new wargames is the hard to find community if you live in a small town. I'm hoping star war legion and the game came from Paraballum games gains more popularity, makes more of competition with GW. But they still have years to go to build up the community that GW already did over decades😅
Well, let's see... As far as the amount of plastic goes, as you say, that's pretty much the same amount of models. And Gw plastic is by far the best regarding details and overall quality, whereas mantic is the lowest and Warlord is probably between the two depending on the age of the kit. At the same time, you are comparing full size forces (especially for SW Legion) to an incursion army of around 1000 points, and this is likely where it all falls apart for me. When you consider that what you listed for Legion is probably everything it takes to make a full game with a variable list (considering add ons and perks for the squads) and 40k is just like, well, half an army (and the less costly part of it too) the real comparison seems far off in favor of SW Legion.
@@coardlowery322I think you are misunderstanding. Giovanni only praises GW plastic quality, which is pretty good. But they (rightfully) call out EOB for the disingenuous 40k and Star Wars Legion comparison. The 40k army is ~1000 points, which is half of the “standard” game size, while the Legion force is a full game for the same price. So the 40K price should be about double what is listed for an accurate comparison.
Exactly, when I talk about Gw plastic is only a matter of material itself (and the layout and level of detail). It's undeniable that their plastic is almost model kit quality without sharing the fragility or the difficult assembly of, for instance, a Tamiya kit. And it has a level of detail extremely higher than Mantic and Warlord. For SW Legion just the last kits in the bunch have reach almost the same quality (as for B1 Battle Droids and few others), whereas the monopose rubbery old models are for sure more detailed than mantic, but seem more to come from a boardgame. As for prices, well... Let's say it this way: they can sell you the same stuff for less than half the price and still gain a lot (as for the Imperium series of booklets). Could they sell the same stuff for half the price? Of course. And that is the reason why I almost never buy new stuff, and when I do it's from a local shop rather than Mail Order.
As you say, to scratch a different itch. I think that is an important phrase here. From a painters point of view, Mantics models often lack both the quality of sculpt and materials that I enjoy working with. However, if I'll you want is plastic on the battlefield why not print? Far cheaper than any of these options per gram, a ever growing library of options, and quite often beautiful sculpts to boot.
If a typical Legion game is 800 points, and a typical 40k game is 2000 points, then sloppy math says that a 40k Black Templars army comes out to North of $700 while a Legions Imperial Army would be South of $300. Not so close now... Anyway, I still enjoyed the video, and think this is a very interesting topic. I also understand that it is difficult to find a metric to compare an contrast various wargames fairly, and I appreciate your attempt. I've recently returned W40k, and before I knew it I was a bit over budget thanks to poor planning and FOMO. I'm going to have some fun turning my new pile of shame into a battle ready force over the next few months, but I wish I had of gone about things differently. Perhaps even gone with a different game made by someone not GW.
Minor issue with the video which is simply that you chose companies/games which mimic 40K and their business model (intentionally, Warlord employs numerous ex-GW employees). Warlord is known for being pretty pricey, and Star Wars Legion is likewise known for being obscenely expensive for what you get. Did you consider miniature lines such as Oathmark, where I can get a box of 30 goblins/orcs/humans/elves/dwarves for around $28? Victrix where I can get a bag of Dacian infantry (60 models split between archers, berserkes, light infantry and heavy infantry) for around $42, etc. You can spend $42 on a single GW "hero" model. Victrix sells you a set of 3x plastic chariots for around $34...and this includes 12 additional infantry figures, six heroes (two of each type), and an alternate side-cladding for each chariot. So, yeah if you stick to 40K-adjacent products which are trying to compete with them, the prices are always similar...but look into any other genre of wargaming, the price differential sky-rockets. At the end of the day, it's all pastic models.
Lol, he made a 1k point gw list and then said they all cost the same. 40K im the norm is played at 2k points, so double the cost of the gw list, while every other game he listed was a full point army, so no they arent anywhere near the same price.
@@richardbradley2335 if you talk about gameplay of course not, but there are factors which are quite reasonably comparable since different games are like different branches of the same tree. So if I want to play a regular size wargame with a friend, and we choose to go for a new army that can be used even against other people, how much do we spend? Answer is standard 40k is (unfortunately) 2000 points, and depending on the army it can go from 200 USD (Custodes) to well over 600 USD (Tyranids), with an average of at least 400 USD. Legion is around 250 USD for each faction, Konflict is around 200 USD depending on who you go for and if you go for pure Bolt Action it can probably be around 150 USD.
For SWL, that sounds like a full sized army rather than half an army, plus you get all the weapon options so you don't have to make a tactical decision during army building.
The Legion equivalent was a little weirdly done in general: SWL games are played at 800 points, so a comparative number to a 1k WH40K army would be around 400 points of minis. At that, you could pick from any of the battle force boxes at $150 and just grab a combat essentials box for $30. In a vacuum, the minis work out at around the same price, but the way SWL is played makes it far cheaper to build an army in the long run.
I got to throw in Battletech, $20 to $30 USD is all you need to play with a 5 unit force and you get the quick Alpha Strike or the simulator hex system. But super interesting to see the price comparison. I think it jumps a ton when you go up to 2k.
Battletech isn’t a mass battle game though. That’s a bit of an unfair comparison. Battletech would be better served being compared to x-wing or similar games. Even in an Alpha Strike game, using the recommended points in the book you’re never going to really go above 8-10 mechs. And that’s pushing the envelope a bit. I really enjoy Battletech, don’t misunderstand me, but it’s not an appropriate competitor to this style of game in terms of scale.
Thought you make an excellent point in the differing nature of the games - B-Tech is a skirmish game with a lot of granular rules, whilst 40K is a massed army game - the fact you can get into B-Tech for a ridiculously cheap price compared to 40K is still a fair point to make. Even if you keep it at around the 500 points Combat Patrol level, you can pick up the B-Tech Alpha Strike boxset for the same money and get it onto the tabletop without needing to add anything else to the mix. The £500 value of your average 40K 2,000 point army? That's practically one of every B-Tech lance/star box, every box set, and a few of the extra rulebooks and map packs thrown in for good measure.
they reel you in with cheap plastic crack but sooner or later you'll be dropping $100 at IronWindMetals for some Battle Armor and VTOLs. It's a great wargame replacement, even though it's more comparable to something like Kill Team imo
@@ScreamingTcI understand the massive price discrepancy. I just think it’s also an unfair comparison because of the vast difference in amount of plastic on the table. Battletech is a lot cheaper, and 40k is very expensive for its class, but I feel the point of “Warhammer is expensive” is better made by comparing the other offerings that compete closer to it - Firefight, Kings of War, Legion etc (although imo legion loses a lot of the argument with lower quality models and prices approaching GW in some areas). Battletech vs Kill Team is a better comparison, and battletech blows KT out of the water in the dollar to value ratio. I wish I could get more battletech games in. Maybe I can teach the kids AS someday.
Yeah I have to agree. I don't think this is fair a full game of 40k is 2000 points. You are kind of comparing half a 40k game to full battleforces. Great video though
I can see why GW is always up in arms over 3D printing. I went from spending probably 2k a year on models (I like larger things, so the price adds up quickly) to maybe 150 USD or so after getting a good printer. That awesome Lord of Contagion model that you can't get anymore and only see on the aftermarket for 40+? Yeah, printed out an exact copy for about 12 cents. Oof.
Bolt action which k47 is based off would crush pretty much all of these it’s between 140-180 for a starter that has usually 2-3 vehicles 3 artillery pieces and 30-40 infantry
at least with what i have seen 40k has a higher variability between factions e.g. custodes would easily be one of the cheapests but mechanicum would be 2x again
DAMMIT JAY! Great video but now thanks to this I started down the Mantic Games Firefight path, only you could put up a video about cost efficiency in wargaming and it end up costing me more money! Actually I love alternative games to 40k and have been meaning to check out Firefight and this just gave me that kick in the rear to preorder one of the new starter boxes (due out on 8/28). Awesome video as always and I always enjoy when you give the smaller games some attention on the channel.
Regarding Konflict'47 starting to play Bolt Action (almost same basic rules and all the ww2 minis are the same) is cheaper than that. You can get a 1000pts army in a box for about 110€ / 130€ Warlord price.
Similar I got a small french force 500 points equivalent to 1k on 40k for literally 100€ And they get one free artillery piece and dont have any starter set. And even then if i would remove the free artillery it would had been 72.50€ to have a small army Thats literally the cost of a command and infantry squads for the ig Wich are 130 points......
Hell, you can get a 1,000 points force out of a single infantry box depending on how you build things. 30 guys is a _lot_ to work with, especially with newer kits like the updated British infantry
It’s not really that hard unless you live somewhere pretty remote. I’ve found gaming groups for infinity, bolt action, and x-wing all in less then 30 minutes of my house They aren’t such random games, some are pretty popular
@@groundbeef6156 not entirely true. I live on a big brazilian metropolis and I can safely say that games such as Inifinty, SW Legion and Marvel Crisis Protocol couldn't make it, as they all silently vanished from local game stores and wargaming groups after a while. I mean, other wargames and skrimish games come and go but Warhammer 40k and Kill Team somehow manage to remain strong here in Brazil. Also, Kill Team has been an entry point to encorage players to try more expensive stuff such as Combat Patrol, Boarding Patrol and even full-fledged Warhammer 40k. Everyone can hate on GW business model but man those guys know their game pretty well, and that's why they keep dominating the market.
I guess it is all about your social scene. I am lucky enough to have been member of a regular (group? circle?) of players for about 30 years. Over that time we have collected forces for most war-games, so 40k, Epic, Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, Dystopian Wars (Spartan version), Mantic's Warpath, Infinity, X-Wing, Firestorm Armada, Dopzone Commander, and various others have all been played in the last 3 or 4 years. I guess I am lucky as I live in South Birmingham (can't often say that) as there is plenty of gamers around here.
Your legion breakdown is poorly done. The Blizzardforce Battleforce box comes with enough to run 800pts (a standard game) for 150msrp, $119 from any store. And the tools and dice to play will be about $25. So an army in a box for effectively $150.
I do appreciate your attempt at doing this however, money spent should be based on the type of game you’re playing to play. So, in the case of Legion, everything you listed is over 800 points, which is what the standard game is. For GW, you only listed 1000 points in all honesty the majority the games are played at 2000 points. So realistically it’ll cost over $700 for a GW army which you did point out.
This video is horribly put together. That forge father strike force can be had for $70 as I type this, and a two faction starter is only $100 direct from Mantic. I have to assume those other products are also regularly purchased for much less than their retail MSRP, unlike GW product.
Since GW charges for their rules, I think you really need to add in the cost of the rulebooks and the codices in order to show the true cost of the 1,000 point GW army.
Being fair, with 10th you don't 'need' a codex or rulebook in order to get started. The points, datasheets, core rules, and index are all downloadable. Even when the codex drops, just play the index if you're starting out.
This seems a bit dishonest if I'm being truthful, comparing a medium/small army of 40k to large armies of the other games (by your own admission) and then saying that the cost is almost equal. But in reality, for big game, 40k is almost twice as expensive.
I find buying secondhand models and stripping the paint of them is pretty cost effective usually you can get a mode at like half the price. Rarely do I pay full price unless it’s a model I want set up just so or I want the extra bits. 40k refers to the quantity of money you will eventually pay for your models
Yes I made a CSMs army basically with second hands purchases around 2020-22, old Termies and chosen for like 65 bucks for 22 models, a couple of rhinos for 25 bucks the piece, shadowspear legionnaires for 30 bucks, 4 obliterators for 50 bucks, a LR for 35 bucks, a cypher for 20 bucks, and it's a meta army right now
I think if you are trying to compare prices you really have to price out an army at the most commonly played level. Which is one of the reasons 40K is so expensive, as your 375 total is half of what you need for a "standard" game, while legion's 800 point standard is MUCH more affordable.
The problem with comparing 40k to legion in points is that units have a lot of leeway in points for legion, for instance, if you take the base starter set, for the CIS you could play it as a sub 300 point list, but if you counts as and ignore cards, you can play it up to 500 points, the republic you get in the same box, goes for 300, to again over 500 points, however if you take the battleforce boxes as your start collecting, which you can find for as little as 120 bucks, you can range from 433 to 960 points, while you will need some equipment, the dice can be gotten for cheap by buying regular dice and making use of there sides, or you buy a starter set, for 100 bucks off Amazon and for 200 bucks you can get up to 1,500 points for any of the armies, as well as 500 for another, and that includes the rules in them, for 40k you have to either pirate the rules or spend another bundle once GW power creeps the free rules
For Malifaux, it depends on the crew/keyword. Some crew will run you around or even below 100 bucks to collect, while others (especially summoner crews) will climb up in price. It's reccomended to pick up two crews in a faction (a schemy crew and a kill-y crew), so around 200-250 for Malifaux
Yeah it's a sad reality that GW knows they dominate the Wargaming community with an iron fist, so people are more willing to put up with their prices because it's almost like a "Guarantee to actually find opponents" tax.
The difference is that Malifaux is not a mass battle game, it is more akin to Kill Team/Necromunda in scale. A comparison of these games possibly brings Kill Team in as cheaper than Malifaux ifyou are lucky enough to get a Starter box or Season box but if you have to buy all the bits separately which seems to be GW's marketing strategy then for Into the Dark, for example you are more than doubling the cost.
@@anthonywaggett9317 Not really, a single unit box is all you'd need, provided you have a place to play and no qualms about looking up the rules online. I do not know a single person who would want to buy every KT release in a season, its simply delusional
@@HealingGourd I don't know but most of the players in my FLGS plays other games, just a couple are "just GW" most play Conquest, Infinity, Warmachine, Legion, ASOIAF, etc
@@wulfezzz6284Why are you facepalming? 3d resin printing gives you fully assembled models at a 50-60% discount (in my experience). You spend 200 dollars on a printer (buy it on sale). 40 on resin, and you can either spend 60-70 on STLs or find some free ones. I soent 40 on my 2k point Drukhari list. Spent like $320 on the entire army. Anything I printed after that would increase the discount. Ive printed around 12k points of a couple armies, and spent like 200 dollars on those. I would have spent like 2-5k dollars on those armies had I not printed.
Getting into 40K tabletop is a struggle, specially in regions like Latin America. Depending on where you live the prices can go up 20 times (Mexico) or even 500 TIMES HIGUER (Argentina), and that is without taxes nor shipping fees!
That final analysis about the "full sized" nature of the non-40k lists while the 40k list was really only a half game is the real reason why 40k is so expensive. Some miniature games are designed for big, epic battles with lots of miniatures, but tend to have cheaper, less detailed individual models. Some games are designed for smaller, tighter skirmishes of a few squads, so tend to have more elaborate, but more expensive models. 40k is really the only game that is played with big, epic battles of elaborate, expensive models.
I feel like this video is extremely misrepresentative of the cost of Legion. I don't think it's anywhere near as expensive as 40k, the army you presented as "equivalent" doesn't really meet that criteria. What you have proposed Core Set (Vader, squads of Storm Troopers, Speeder Bikes), another box of Storm troopers, Bossk, Scout Troopers, Shore Troopers, AT-ST and Dewback Riders, is over 800 points *before upgrades* which is the 40k 2k-point equivalent for Legion. That is, the points value at which most tournament games are played and supposedly the amount that the game is primarily balanced around. Like other people have pointed out, you can just buy the blizzard force box, the essentials kit and some extra dice to have a much more focused purchasing experience for cheaper.
I like that he used 1000 pts for 40K but here I am, not even building an army but collecting the cool looking space marines (captains, Tor Garadon, Lazarus etc)... and wow I got up to $ 450 + Canadian. Welp, I guess its cheaper to build a "table ready army" than a collector cool looking mini but as everyone says, collect the mini that you want. Thanks for this video and analysis!
As much as that org works visually for SW: Legion, the points just don't connect at all. Vader, 3 stormtroopers, a bikes unit, dewback rider, AT-ST, scout troopers, shoretroopers, and Bossk are 822 points, bumped to 862 if you count the mortar trooper that come with the shoretroopers A standard battle for Legion is 800 points, and you tend to add at least some upgrade cards to your units, which also adds points. This is a cool list with a nice 10-11 activations, but it's too many points before you even add upgrades, which can make or break a unit
Resume: yes it's pretty expensive, 350 bucks for barely 1k (and you need 2k), for the other games for 300-200 bucks you have a complete 2k equivalent army, and even for less
When I started in high-school I thought it was expensive at $35 a box... now it's priced me out. Not like gas, groceries, and taxes don't all cost double. Then these guys (GW) have to fuck us even harder...
Legion is surprisingly expensive considering the poor quality of the minis. The soft plastic minis which make of the core of the rebel and imperial armies are garbage. The are the the same sculpts used by Ral Partha for WEG SW mini game and much worse quality.
Anyone who doesn’t understand that these hobbies are expensive are crazy. The global economy is taking a shit and they are raising prices these games should only be bought by people who have already invested in the economy, saved for their home, and have an emergency fun. That being said play Star Wars legion it’s cheaper. Barely.
I got my first ever 40k box set and all the paints and accessories that are genuinely needed (black templars combat patrol) with that and all the paint and shit needed i ended up spending like 5-6 hundred (AUD) lol
No Warmachine...? Crazy. Konflict 47 and The Mantic game are so much more obscure. A 50pt starter box for mk4, which is roughly 1k pts in 40k, is $200. That comes with 1 leader character model, 18 to 21 infantry models (4 squads and 1 officer solo), and 2 customizable warjacks/Warbeast. Pushing it up to 75pts(about 1500pts) or 100pts ( about 2k in 40k) can be done by purchasing additional models at $30 to $45 for additional warjacks (depending on size), an expansion box of 13 to 15 infantry models comprising an alternate leader model, 3 squads, and 2 Solos for $130, and or an additional leader model and several mercenary models for $12 to $18 each, per faction All new Mk4 armies are 3D printed, and many customizable models come designed to be magnetized to allow different load outs by design.
Battletech: A Game of Armored Combat box only costs $45 and comes with everything you need for a game of Classic Battletech(dice, hex maps, 8 mechs, rules, and cardstock standees. Two beginners boxes(Beginner's and Essentials box) come with a good starting point that is still playable at $20 each. The Clan Invasion expansion is $50 and includes 5 more mechs, standees, maps, rules, and more. The Alpha Strike box is $80 and has 13 minis terrain and everything else you need to play the game. Each box is an incredible value.
one thing worth noting space marines are notoriously one of the cheaper 40k armies 2000pts of admech or guard for instance will EASILY set you back 500-600 even with a starter set or 2 even more for some units, ironstrider balistari are literally over a doller per point, if you like that model then a 2000pt army running a lot of them will easily set you back 1000 bucks
Yeah Warlord games stuff is way cheaper then GW and they constantly give you bonus models and stuff just for buying from them direct. Or you can buy from a third party like your LGS and get stuff dirt cheap.
His math is way off. Please see my comment. Bolt action will cost you one quarter the price or much less than a 2K 40K army. Especially if you source the infantry from other companies. The main cost of Conflict '47 are the large Resin walker models and upgrade turrets. So, find some cheap WW2 infantry on amazon or from other manufacturers and just buy a couple walkers, upgrade turrets and a heavy armor infantry unit from Warlord.
Konflict 47 is mostly piggy backing on the bolt action line. Most of the model are actually conversion kit for their WW2 line. Their basic infantry box are generally in the 30 to 40€ range, but you get generally 30 to 40 figures inside of it instead of the 5 to 10 you get from GW for the same price. Also, yeah, they're very customer friendly, giving free stuff and bonus model. They have a very extensive range, lot of kit bashing friendly plastic model and they can make a good basis for the IG in 40k. Their fig are slightly smaller and thinner than the heroic scale IG model, but it's quite ideal if you want better contrast with space marine or if you want a better demarcation between female and male guard.
I pulled off around $500 minus paints for a 2,000 pt necron army. That was all unassembled and took quite a few months of hunting eBay, local stores, and not being crazy picky just looking for a solid base. 1 Indomitus half-$150, 1 Combat patrol-$100, and a World Scour legion at $250. Not cheap, but you can be cheap-ish if you invest some time scouting deals.
battletech can be pretty cheap, the starter box is a good sample, but the armored combat game, with just 20 dollars more, is like, 8 miniatures, which is a almost a full company.
@@joshgrillo2482 not only them but even model for 40k made by fans are some of the best out there. Someone made the new tyranids models with super high details in less than 2 weeks after they were announced. They were so good literally GW had to take them down with DMCA's
While looking for OPR inspiration, I have to admit that Warhammer doesn't have the most expensive models. Infinity and Malifaux ask a premium for what is basically a skirmish game made of only hero models. But when it comes to a full army, you are usually well served with Just the starter box and one or two extras. ASOIAF gives you a lot of stuff in their starter boxes and you need no assembly, ready to play Out of the box. Oh, the rules are free, but you will need to print some updated cards and profiles. So when you are looking for an affordable full army experience, I can only recommend ASOIAF (Not sponsored, Just enjoying it so much).
PLEASE READ: You neglected the main competitor to 40K, Bolt Action. A Bolt action starter army box for most factions is 1000 pts. (Waffen SS 1500 pts.) and costs an average of $170 USD retail and $120 on Amazon. Much, much cheaper than Konfict '47 that includes large resin models and add ons (tank turrets, etc.) specific to that game. And LESS THAN HALF of what your 40K army cost. Keep in mind, Bolt action games are usually played at 1000 - 1250 pts. And 40K is played at 2000 pts.!!! This means Bolt action is one quarter the cost of 40K. Additionally, it is miniature agnostic. You can find cheaper models than what warlord sells from about a dozen other manufacturers and the 3D print market is on fire. Since there is no intellectual property for WW2 tanks, you can find an STL for next to nothing ($6-$8 average) and print as many tanks and other vehicles as you need. Jay, I think your video shows a lot of bias towards Warhammer and it does not do right by the community. Games Workshop is a nothing short of a rip off and those of us that play other games are very much aware.
I think the initial printer and resin and washing cost turns people off, but printers are getting cheaper and cheaper, GW is getting more and more expensive, and after the initial expensive price, 3d printing dramatically reduces in price
Speaking of Konflikt 47, me and my brother are slowly getting into Bolt action since he is a big WW2 history nerd. And we are currently at 750 points, working towards a 1000 points army over a few months and over a few games, starting from the Band of brothers starter set. And I am currently completely set up to reach 1000 points with just the American half of the starter set and single box of US Airborne. Kit bashing a few things like a light mortar team, a bazooka team, a sniper team and a field medic. Assuming you only take the models into account, I've spend roughly ~110 dollars, but my local games store charges a lot more than what I could find online. Bringing the price down to ~80 $ or even as low as ~65 $ for the Airborne starter army set if you were to shop around a bit. To be completely transparent, any veteran army like the Airborne is probbly the cheapest army to start off with. But even so, most starter army boxes float around 150 $, even for the Soviets which is largely a horde army. And you can add 30 dollars or so for a tank of your choice from Bolt action or any 1/72 model tank.
I think the biggest issue is that prices feel random. In legion 7 man squads are always around 30-45$. Meanwhile 10 Intercessors is 60$ but only 3 Eradicators is also 60$. An iron strider is 60$ and like 55 points while a Tyrannofex is 250ish points for 60$ and is a much larger model.
All are still very expensive. North Star / Crusader miniatures 32 (1 platoon) _metal_ WWII figures 71 USD Matilda II Tank 22 USD vs Warlord (Konflict 47) 38.50 USD Perry Miniatures - various plastics ranges - 40 figures 23 USD Or in a different context, for two and a half Leviathan boxes, I can put completely new disc brakes on my classic car.
Let's be honest... Once you hit the second hand market, Mantic & WARLORD stuff is around 2/3 that cost again... I've personally built a 1500 (in game points) Warlord Games Bolt Action German army (made mainly from a mix of their fantastic multi pose Sprue range) for less than £100 ($125 US) Thats given me: 50 troops Full command HQ Specials Supports Tank Transports Sure GW make the most wonderful looking models... but you're paying for them to look good rather than playing a good game
GW and SW - most expensive games... GW is GW and SW is hight licence costs... Mantic Firefight is a good GW W40k alternative. 2-player starter cost 120 Euro. Two 1000 point armies, approx. 50 models, 2 tanks, 2 bike models, dice and rulebook. Game out of a box. All in hard plastics. GW IS very expensive. The FF set has also 20+ dice and all the paper You need. I really like Your approach to hobby is more than GW. Thanks for that.
There's something to be said about amortisation of costs. Even if I may have spent 30.000€ on my Miniatures in total - that sounds like a lot - ; but over a 25 year time window it breaks down to just over 100 bucks per month - or rather, in todays Money, having three Restaurant Visits for Lunch. It's honestly not alot, and it won't spoil or go bad - many miniatures are perfectly useable even 25 years later. Breaking it down to cost-per-hour-of-diversion, this hobby even when only assuming a third of an hour every day, will be less than 10 bucks per hour of Freetime-Diversion, maybe even just 5 bucks per hour in costs for the actual hobby time. As Hobbies goes - thats peanuts.
There is a problem to the Forge Father list: You don't want to put on 60 to 80 little dwarf shoulder pads. Those are separate pieces and are a pain in the butt to put on. Also, this isn't too helpful because I like Naval Wargames. Gimme Dem Boats. Kings of War Armada is pretty expensive, about 60 bucks per box, with 45 buck XL ships and 25 buck Flyer packs. It's 190 for a full navy, but you have options. Dystopian Wars, it's ~75 for a starter box of a faction, plus ~100 for a big box Mass 4 Carrier most often, but that'll get you to standard game sizes and maybe beyond depending on your options.
![[TH] FS vs BME - VCT Ascension Pacific - Lower Bracket Final](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wnygqsR2Fig/mqdefault.jpg)
Babe wake up Eons of Battle just posted
But, but, Pete the Warganer just dropped a cool conversion.
We’re so alone. Yet so connected.
@@teamkeogh you get the pop corn, I'll get the gaming table.
Im up
This is the LAST video my girlfriend needs to see regarding the topic 😂
So…we going to do a follow up video where you compare a “full” 40k army vs full alternate armies? Plus books and everything else needed to play? The alternate games needed WAY more to get even close to 40k prices
It still makes 40k the most expensive game by far because the standard game size is way more than the other games. You also have to keep in mind that games workshop charges a fortune for all the books that you need, so that's another hidden expense.
Finally, the last thing to consider is that games workshop is basically the one setting the prices in the industry. They dominate the market and other games only have to be a little less expensive than them.
@@Quin-du6gl while nobody is forcing anyone to play 2k, it's the standard for events at game stores. Youll likely be excluded from a lot of you don't have 2k.
And yes, it's not cheap to have a whole miniatures range, but GW's markup is A LOT. They sell enough of them that it becomes hard to excuse a squad of cadians almost quadrupling in price over 15 years (far exceeding inflation).
You don't need to defend the multi-billion dollar company that is dominating the market and making it difficult for smaller companies to compete with.
@@Quin-du6gl nah, the standard game is 2K, yes you can have fun with 1K, but 2K double the fun, also you have more room to use several class of units, vehicles or characters, the missions are designed for 2k armies so you need several units to contr objectives, thing that in 1k you can't do it, because at least 200-300 points are gonna be for a couple of characters.
@@11AleZZ Yep, and the game is also actually balanced for 2k play, not 1k play or even combat patrol (though they're trying to fix this with a separate game mode). And you can go much more character-heavy at 1k than 2k, relatively speaking, and characters are often the best way to get as many points as possible at the lowest price possible.
Ok
and that's why TT games are not going fully mainstream. All the competitors need to do is have good rules and charge a reasonable price, but greed hampers their own success. They make TT look like a premium hobby and turns most people away
That Legion list seems about 100 points more than you need, considering you likely want points left for upgrades. You could easily drop the Dewback and third Stormtrooper squad and still have 10 activations. Plus you're comparing a full size Legion army to a 40K army size that is half of the usual game size. I'd say a 500pt skirmish list is a bit more fair of a comparison. So I feel like Legion is a better deal than is made out here. Just my 2 cents 😉
When it was under FFG, maybe. I despise AMG with a passion and I’ll never play a game that is run by those devs.
On the face, 40K seems more like the price tag than the name of the game. I got into it just this year because my partner used to play it 20+ years ago before we met, I wanted something we could do together away from the computer, and we both like to paint and make dioramas. I'm in about $2,000 at this point and my wish list gets longer rather than shorter. Sticker shock for sure. Although when I really think about it, most of my hobbies have been comparably "expensive". It's a matter of perspective. When I was younger and wearing makeup daily, I would think nothing of spending $65 on an eyeshadow palette, or $100 on a set of brushes. I was hitting Sephora/Ulta every other week to the tune of $200 or so. My biggest year I spent close to $7,000 on "beauty" products - with nothing to show for it. Thinking about all of my other hobbies and their required tools and materials, same thing. Arts and crafts are easy to underestimate because it's a lot of small transactions tucked in among normal household purchases -- 40K costs are fewer but larger and therefore more "obvious". I would say if you want to do this as a hobby you're looking at $500 easy for building/painting supplies, another $500 for starter sets and key pieces, and then you can go from a few hundred more into multiple thousands more depending on how many of the models/game variants pique your interests. I wish it was less expensive. I can say I get enough enjoyment out of the experience to make it an acceptable expense.
Similar conclusion I came to after years of online video game friends buying me Warhammer games or always talking about it, I thought maybe it's time for some new hobbies, a big part of that is because I have been a car enthusiast most of my life and you get older and sometime priorities change and Warhammer is pretty much chump change compared to that!
So perspective absolutely is huge for some and i totally get those already deep in the hobby when they see the price increases and see all the other cheaper alternatives is like a huge wtf i also understand some people maybe be on really tight budgets and Warhammer might be the one joy they get in their free time and it's like this constant voice in their head why isn't this cheaper?
I started in around 2005 when the boxes came with more models and cost about £12.50 from Games Workshop, and even then that was seen as quite a hike from their last prices, as I was bitterly disappointed to find out at the time. From then inflation has been 68%, people's pay on average has risen around 38% in that time, warhammer prices have risen 300 percent and you get less models.
You hit the main point I don't see mentioned enough. It's not just about inflation, it's about what people are bringing home. Folks' wages have on average been stagnant for a long long time. If wages kept up with inflation, and GW raised prices according to inflation there wouldn't really be an issue, but that's just not happening. Not even close.
Back in 97 when 3rd dropped I was able to talk friends into playing by saying "$100 will get you playing but you'll need glue and paint. DakkaDakka has store copies of all the books so you only need to buy them if you want to read them at home".
Back then a box of 10 Marines was $25. A rhino was $25. Terminators were like $35 for 5. I remember being pissed that plastic dreads were $10 more than the metal ones.
I think the 3rd ed starter was $125 and it came with the rule book, dice, whippy sticks, templates, quick reference sheet, terrain, a limited edition captain (not really), 10 Marines, a land speeder, 10 or maybe 20 dark Eldar and some other stuff for them... Honestly they just ended up in bits boxes.
I bought the 3rd ed assassin codex for $8.
The greatest deal GW ever had was the Black Templar Army Box from 3rd.
It came with so much crap for like $200.
Emperor's champion, marshal, 10 Marines, 5 assault marines, a rhino, a land raider crusader, and so on and so on.
The only problem with this math is that 40k is at 1,000 points. And everyone plays at 2,000 primarily.
Poorhammer did a podcast episode where they were saying “who can get a 2k point army for under $500” and they really only came up with the Custodes and Grey Knight because of liberal combat patrol use. Space marines got close but struggled (granted this was end of 9th so marines were going cheap).
These days I bet it’s still those 3 only. Knights surprisingly didn’t make it.
And I honestly can't name another TT wargame much less TT game which 40k is now marketed as where a normal army/everything you need to play standard costs more then $200.
Oh my god yes I love those guys podcast. Always listening to those guys. That was one of my favorite episodes
@@GreenBlueWalkthroughexactly! My preferred game is Heavy Gear. A starter set is $65-$80 usd and comes with the equivalent of 2000-4000 points in 40k!! Pdf rules are free online and there is a free army builder. A two player set is ~$100 and has two 1500 (40k equivalent) armies and a printed book. Printed books are $25 for small and $40 for full sized.
40k and GW are not the norm in pricing
@@GreenBlueWalkthroughStar Wars legion probably exceeds $200, especially when you factor in you cannot possibly have the dice ahead of time and need to buy their dice. I want to say even his example exceeds $200.
Kings of War probably pushes you over $200 for standard format. The mega army boxes are super good value though and get you most of the way there.
I think $300 is a more realistic army budget for games that are not GW.
The thing is though jumping in at the deep end with a 2k army is one of the worst ways to start the hobby for most people, it's a really easy way to get overloaded with information, waste a bunch of money building a terrible list, and want to quit. 1000 points is the best place to start since it gives you the experience of a real game, is less investment, and you get a better idea of how to build up to 2k. Most people will understand if you're new and want to play a smaller game, trying to do a 2k game with someone who doesn't know how to play is not a fun experience for the person who does.
When it comes to rank and flank fantasy games, there's one big budget thing to consider. It's that while some of the games sell their own mini's, some are also miniature agnostic so you can use other minis if you wish. For example, a box of Mantic Elf Tallspears are $37.50 for 20 while a box of Northstar Elf Infantry are about $32.00 for 30 minis, and either one is fine to use in Kings of War.
Also, one big advantage that Mantic's Kings of War has is that it's optional unit basing rules (i.e. one big base for the whole unit) also allows you to short the number of minis on the unit base (as model removal isn't a thing). So while an infantry regiment may be 20 guys, you can spread them out a little and get away with 15 on the unit base. So that one box of Northstar mini's mentioned above could make 2 regiments while the Mantic box could only make one regiment with with 5 guys left over.
Finally, when you mentioned that for the other games the lists you created was pretty much the standard 'big' game for the system, I wonder what you think of Mantic bringing back their 'big game' rule set Warpath which will now be in a more 'Epic' scale.
I got into Flames of War because 40K is too expensive. You can buy a full starter force for about $110 and start playing.
As long as GW have the majority of the wargaming market their pricing strategy won't change.😢 The problem with new wargames is the hard to find community if you live in a small town. I'm hoping star war legion and the game came from Paraballum games gains more popularity, makes more of competition with GW. But they still have years to go to build up the community that GW already did over decades😅
Well, let's see...
As far as the amount of plastic goes, as you say, that's pretty much the same amount of models. And Gw plastic is by far the best regarding details and overall quality, whereas mantic is the lowest and Warlord is probably between the two depending on the age of the kit.
At the same time, you are comparing full size forces (especially for SW Legion) to an incursion army of around 1000 points, and this is likely where it all falls apart for me. When you consider that what you listed for Legion is probably everything it takes to make a full game with a variable list (considering add ons and perks for the squads) and 40k is just like, well, half an army (and the less costly part of it too) the real comparison seems far off in favor of SW Legion.
Boot leather tasting good this morning?
@@coardlowery322I think you are misunderstanding. Giovanni only praises GW plastic quality, which is pretty good. But they (rightfully) call out EOB for the disingenuous 40k and Star Wars Legion comparison. The 40k army is ~1000 points, which is half of the “standard” game size, while the Legion force is a full game for the same price. So the 40K price should be about double what is listed for an accurate comparison.
@03dashk64 if that was their intend, then I will rescind my comment.
Exactly, when I talk about Gw plastic is only a matter of material itself (and the layout and level of detail). It's undeniable that their plastic is almost model kit quality without sharing the fragility or the difficult assembly of, for instance, a Tamiya kit. And it has a level of detail extremely higher than Mantic and Warlord.
For SW Legion just the last kits in the bunch have reach almost the same quality (as for B1 Battle Droids and few others), whereas the monopose rubbery old models are for sure more detailed than mantic, but seem more to come from a boardgame.
As for prices, well... Let's say it this way: they can sell you the same stuff for less than half the price and still gain a lot (as for the Imperium series of booklets).
Could they sell the same stuff for half the price? Of course.
And that is the reason why I almost never buy new stuff, and when I do it's from a local shop rather than Mail Order.
As you say, to scratch a different itch. I think that is an important phrase here. From a painters point of view, Mantics models often lack both the quality of sculpt and materials that I enjoy working with. However, if I'll you want is plastic on the battlefield why not print? Far cheaper than any of these options per gram, a ever growing library of options, and quite often beautiful sculpts to boot.
If a typical Legion game is 800 points, and a typical 40k game is 2000 points, then sloppy math says that a 40k Black Templars army comes out to North of $700 while a Legions Imperial Army would be South of $300. Not so close now...
Anyway, I still enjoyed the video, and think this is a very interesting topic. I also understand that it is difficult to find a metric to compare an contrast various wargames fairly, and I appreciate your attempt.
I've recently returned W40k, and before I knew it I was a bit over budget thanks to poor planning and FOMO. I'm going to have some fun turning my new pile of shame into a battle ready force over the next few months, but I wish I had of gone about things differently. Perhaps even gone with a different game made by someone not GW.
Minor issue with the video which is simply that you chose companies/games which mimic 40K and their business model (intentionally, Warlord employs numerous ex-GW employees). Warlord is known for being pretty pricey, and Star Wars Legion is likewise known for being obscenely expensive for what you get.
Did you consider miniature lines such as Oathmark, where I can get a box of 30 goblins/orcs/humans/elves/dwarves for around $28? Victrix where I can get a bag of Dacian infantry (60 models split between archers, berserkes, light infantry and heavy infantry) for around $42, etc. You can spend $42 on a single GW "hero" model. Victrix sells you a set of 3x plastic chariots for around $34...and this includes 12 additional infantry figures, six heroes (two of each type), and an alternate side-cladding for each chariot.
So, yeah if you stick to 40K-adjacent products which are trying to compete with them, the prices are always similar...but look into any other genre of wargaming, the price differential sky-rockets. At the end of the day, it's all pastic models.
Lol, he made a 1k point gw list and then said they all cost the same. 40K im the norm is played at 2k points, so double the cost of the gw list, while every other game he listed was a full point army, so no they arent anywhere near the same price.
Now compare a 2k point 40k army to an average game size in other systems. And add in the codex and rulebook and supplements needed to stay up to date.
So much expensive paper to buy for 40k, it's almost ludicrous. And we have like 10 days until the army builder goes behind a paywall.
Nice.
Different games cant be compared to each other though.
@@richardbradley2335 if you talk about gameplay of course not, but there are factors which are quite reasonably comparable since different games are like different branches of the same tree.
So if I want to play a regular size wargame with a friend, and we choose to go for a new army that can be used even against other people, how much do we spend?
Answer is standard 40k is (unfortunately) 2000 points, and depending on the army it can go from 200 USD (Custodes) to well over 600 USD (Tyranids), with an average of at least 400 USD.
Legion is around 250 USD for each faction, Konflict is around 200 USD depending on who you go for and if you go for pure Bolt Action it can probably be around 150 USD.
@@richardbradley2335 they most certainly can.
i played Challenger 2000...modern tank combat..games were 30,000 i think...4 abrahms would be 600 points...GW is its own horrible little world.
For SWL, that sounds like a full sized army rather than half an army, plus you get all the weapon options so you don't have to make a tactical decision during army building.
The Legion equivalent was a little weirdly done in general: SWL games are played at 800 points, so a comparative number to a 1k WH40K army would be around 400 points of minis. At that, you could pick from any of the battle force boxes at $150 and just grab a combat essentials box for $30. In a vacuum, the minis work out at around the same price, but the way SWL is played makes it far cheaper to build an army in the long run.
Also you could just purchase something like the 501st or Echo Base for 120-150 bucks and have a nice 800 point list.
This so much, the legion comparison was badly done
I got to throw in Battletech, $20 to $30 USD is all you need to play with a 5 unit force and you get the quick Alpha Strike or the simulator hex system.
But super interesting to see the price comparison. I think it jumps a ton when you go up to 2k.
Battletech isn’t a mass battle game though. That’s a bit of an unfair comparison. Battletech would be better served being compared to x-wing or similar games.
Even in an Alpha Strike game, using the recommended points in the book you’re never going to really go above 8-10 mechs. And that’s pushing the envelope a bit.
I really enjoy Battletech, don’t misunderstand me, but it’s not an appropriate competitor to this style of game in terms of scale.
Thought you make an excellent point in the differing nature of the games - B-Tech is a skirmish game with a lot of granular rules, whilst 40K is a massed army game - the fact you can get into B-Tech for a ridiculously cheap price compared to 40K is still a fair point to make. Even if you keep it at around the 500 points Combat Patrol level, you can pick up the B-Tech Alpha Strike boxset for the same money and get it onto the tabletop without needing to add anything else to the mix. The £500 value of your average 40K 2,000 point army? That's practically one of every B-Tech lance/star box, every box set, and a few of the extra rulebooks and map packs thrown in for good measure.
they reel you in with cheap plastic crack but sooner or later you'll be dropping $100 at IronWindMetals for some Battle Armor and VTOLs. It's a great wargame replacement, even though it's more comparable to something like Kill Team imo
@@ScreamingTcI understand the massive price discrepancy. I just think it’s also an unfair comparison because of the vast difference in amount of plastic on the table. Battletech is a lot cheaper, and 40k is very expensive for its class, but I feel the point of “Warhammer is expensive” is better made by comparing the other offerings that compete closer to it - Firefight, Kings of War, Legion etc (although imo legion loses a lot of the argument with lower quality models and prices approaching GW in some areas).
Battletech vs Kill Team is a better comparison, and battletech blows KT out of the water in the dollar to value ratio.
I wish I could get more battletech games in. Maybe I can teach the kids AS someday.
Yeah I have to agree. I don't think this is fair a full game of 40k is 2000 points. You are kind of comparing half a 40k game to full battleforces. Great video though
I can see why GW is always up in arms over 3D printing. I went from spending probably 2k a year on models (I like larger things, so the price adds up quickly) to maybe 150 USD or so after getting a good printer. That awesome Lord of Contagion model that you can't get anymore and only see on the aftermarket for 40+? Yeah, printed out an exact copy for about 12 cents. Oof.
I did the math for a nice 2,000 pts necrons army and it ended up at 1 500$ for the model, no paint, dice, model carrier, or other good stuff
Bolt action which k47 is based off would crush pretty much all of these it’s between 140-180 for a starter that has usually 2-3 vehicles 3 artillery pieces and 30-40 infantry
I said the same thing. Check out my comment.
at least with what i have seen 40k has a higher variability between factions e.g. custodes would easily be one of the cheapests but mechanicum would be 2x again
GSC like 4x
@11AleZZ GSC is just buy combat patrol 3x then few units to get to 2k
DAMMIT JAY! Great video but now thanks to this I started down the Mantic Games Firefight path, only you could put up a video about cost efficiency in wargaming and it end up costing me more money!
Actually I love alternative games to 40k and have been meaning to check out Firefight and this just gave me that kick in the rear to preorder one of the new starter boxes (due out on 8/28).
Awesome video as always and I always enjoy when you give the smaller games some attention on the channel.
Regarding Konflict'47 starting to play Bolt Action (almost same basic rules and all the ww2 minis are the same) is cheaper than that. You can get a 1000pts army in a box for about 110€ / 130€ Warlord price.
Similar
I got a small french force 500 points equivalent to 1k on 40k for literally 100€
And they get one free artillery piece and dont have any starter set.
And even then if i would remove the free artillery it would had been 72.50€ to have a small army
Thats literally the cost of a command and infantry squads for the ig
Wich are 130 points......
He is biased towards GW and his video isn inaccurate. Check out my comment.
Hell, you can get a 1,000 points force out of a single infantry box depending on how you build things. 30 guys is a _lot_ to work with, especially with newer kits like the updated British infantry
K47 os great fun
The real problem is that it's difficult to find anyone else who plays those random games... It's easier to find a 40k player
It’s not really that hard unless you live somewhere pretty remote. I’ve found gaming groups for infinity, bolt action, and x-wing all in less then 30 minutes of my house
They aren’t such random games, some are pretty popular
@@groundbeef6156 not entirely true. I live on a big brazilian metropolis and I can safely say that games such as Inifinty, SW Legion and Marvel Crisis Protocol couldn't make it, as they all silently vanished from local game stores and wargaming groups after a while. I mean, other wargames and skrimish games come and go but Warhammer 40k and Kill Team somehow manage to remain strong here in Brazil. Also, Kill Team has been an entry point to encorage players to try more expensive stuff such as Combat Patrol, Boarding Patrol and even full-fledged Warhammer 40k. Everyone can hate on GW business model but man those guys know their game pretty well, and that's why they keep dominating the market.
I guess it is all about your social scene. I am lucky enough to have been member of a regular (group? circle?) of players for about 30 years. Over that time we have collected forces for most war-games, so 40k, Epic, Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, Dystopian Wars (Spartan version), Mantic's Warpath, Infinity, X-Wing, Firestorm Armada, Dopzone Commander, and various others have all been played in the last 3 or 4 years. I guess I am lucky as I live in South Birmingham (can't often say that) as there is plenty of gamers around here.
Your legion breakdown is poorly done. The Blizzardforce Battleforce box comes with enough to run 800pts (a standard game) for 150msrp, $119 from any store. And the tools and dice to play will be about $25. So an army in a box for effectively $150.
I do appreciate your attempt at doing this however, money spent should be based on the type of game you’re playing to play. So, in the case of Legion, everything you listed is over 800 points, which is what the standard game is. For GW, you only listed 1000 points in all honesty the majority the games are played at 2000 points. So realistically it’ll cost over $700 for a GW army which you did point out.
This video is horribly put together. That forge father strike force can be had for $70 as I type this, and a two faction starter is only $100 direct from Mantic. I have to assume those other products are also regularly purchased for much less than their retail MSRP, unlike GW product.
Since GW charges for their rules, I think you really need to add in the cost of the rulebooks and the codices in order to show the true cost of the 1,000 point GW army.
Except in this edition they haven't charged for the rules so far, and then there is Wahapedia where you basically access those rules for free.
Being fair, with 10th you don't 'need' a codex or rulebook in order to get started. The points, datasheets, core rules, and index are all downloadable. Even when the codex drops, just play the index if you're starting out.
This seems a bit dishonest if I'm being truthful, comparing a medium/small army of 40k to large armies of the other games (by your own admission) and then saying that the cost is almost equal. But in reality, for big game, 40k is almost twice as expensive.
That is my major issue, he knows he isn't being honest with himself or his viewers.
I think it’s a little misleading to price out a 1000 point 40K army. 2000 is the size that the vast majority of people play.
I find buying secondhand models and stripping the paint of them is pretty cost effective usually you can get a mode at like half the price. Rarely do I pay full price unless it’s a model I want set up just so or I want the extra bits. 40k refers to the quantity of money you will eventually pay for your models
It might be a matter then of the cost of supplies to strip them and then repaint (and sometimes repair) the models?
Ain’t nobody got time for that
Yes I made a CSMs army basically with second hands purchases around 2020-22, old Termies and chosen for like 65 bucks for 22 models, a couple of rhinos for 25 bucks the piece, shadowspear legionnaires for 30 bucks, 4 obliterators for 50 bucks, a LR for 35 bucks, a cypher for 20 bucks, and it's a meta army right now
@@Gakusangi a bottle of rubbing alcohol, a cheap brush and super glue, just ten bucks
I think if you are trying to compare prices you really have to price out an army at the most commonly played level. Which is one of the reasons 40K is so expensive, as your 375 total is half of what you need for a "standard" game, while legion's 800 point standard is MUCH more affordable.
This is an intentional move by GW to squeeze more money out of people.
Army size going up killed WHFB.
The problem with comparing 40k to legion in points is that units have a lot of leeway in points for legion, for instance, if you take the base starter set, for the CIS you could play it as a sub 300 point list, but if you counts as and ignore cards, you can play it up to 500 points, the republic you get in the same box, goes for 300, to again over 500 points, however if you take the battleforce boxes as your start collecting, which you can find for as little as 120 bucks, you can range from 433 to 960 points, while you will need some equipment, the dice can be gotten for cheap by buying regular dice and making use of there sides, or you buy a starter set, for 100 bucks off Amazon and for 200 bucks you can get up to 1,500 points for any of the armies, as well as 500 for another, and that includes the rules in them, for 40k you have to either pirate the rules or spend another bundle once GW power creeps the free rules
These sound dope but I don't think anyone at my game shop plays them.
That said, I dread to think how much an equivalent Malifaux army would cost.
For Malifaux, it depends on the crew/keyword.
Some crew will run you around or even below 100 bucks to collect, while others (especially summoner crews) will climb up in price.
It's reccomended to pick up two crews in a faction (a schemy crew and a kill-y crew), so around 200-250 for Malifaux
Yeah it's a sad reality that GW knows they dominate the Wargaming community with an iron fist, so people are more willing to put up with their prices because it's almost like a "Guarantee to actually find opponents" tax.
The difference is that Malifaux is not a mass battle game, it is more akin to Kill Team/Necromunda in scale. A comparison of these games possibly brings Kill Team in as cheaper than Malifaux ifyou are lucky enough to get a Starter box or Season box but if you have to buy all the bits separately which seems to be GW's marketing strategy then for Into the Dark, for example you are more than doubling the cost.
@@anthonywaggett9317 Not really, a single unit box is all you'd need, provided you have a place to play and no qualms about looking up the rules online.
I do not know a single person who would want to buy every KT release in a season, its simply delusional
@@HealingGourd I don't know but most of the players in my FLGS plays other games, just a couple are "just GW" most play Conquest, Infinity, Warmachine, Legion, ASOIAF, etc
Bro this aint fair. 40ks "normal" size is 2k so the 600$ figure would be more fair
Bro I made an army with 2 bottles of resin 3d printing. That's less than a box of 5 marines
The answer is too expensive in the current state of the world I’ve had to give up the hobby
I have quit warhammer and moved on to gunpla simply because I can no longer afford 40k anymore. A box of marines in my country is at least 98 dollars
just 3d print them.
ong bro @@rpamungkas13
@@rpamungkas13🤦🏼
@@wulfezzz6284Why are you facepalming? 3d resin printing gives you fully assembled models at a 50-60% discount (in my experience). You spend 200 dollars on a printer (buy it on sale). 40 on resin, and you can either spend 60-70 on STLs or find some free ones. I soent 40 on my 2k point Drukhari list. Spent like $320 on the entire army. Anything I printed after that would increase the discount. Ive printed around 12k points of a couple armies, and spent like 200 dollars on those. I would have spent like 2-5k dollars on those armies had I not printed.
@@noobyoverlord could still be too expensive tbh, I understand your paint but the really good 3d printers and stuff are also pretty expensive
Getting into 40K tabletop is a struggle, specially in regions like Latin America. Depending on where you live the prices can go up 20 times (Mexico) or even 500 TIMES HIGUER (Argentina), and that is without taxes nor shipping fees!
That final analysis about the "full sized" nature of the non-40k lists while the 40k list was really only a half game is the real reason why 40k is so expensive.
Some miniature games are designed for big, epic battles with lots of miniatures, but tend to have cheaper, less detailed individual models. Some games are designed for smaller, tighter skirmishes of a few squads, so tend to have more elaborate, but more expensive models. 40k is really the only game that is played with big, epic battles of elaborate, expensive models.
I feel like this video is extremely misrepresentative of the cost of Legion. I don't think it's anywhere near as expensive as 40k, the army you presented as "equivalent" doesn't really meet that criteria. What you have proposed Core Set (Vader, squads of Storm Troopers, Speeder Bikes), another box of Storm troopers, Bossk, Scout Troopers, Shore Troopers, AT-ST and Dewback Riders, is over 800 points *before upgrades* which is the 40k 2k-point equivalent for Legion. That is, the points value at which most tournament games are played and supposedly the amount that the game is primarily balanced around. Like other people have pointed out, you can just buy the blizzard force box, the essentials kit and some extra dice to have a much more focused purchasing experience for cheaper.
I like that he used 1000 pts for 40K but here I am, not even building an army but collecting the cool looking space marines (captains, Tor Garadon, Lazarus etc)... and wow I got up to $ 450 + Canadian. Welp, I guess its cheaper to build a "table ready army" than a collector cool looking mini but as everyone says, collect the mini that you want. Thanks for this video and analysis!
As much as that org works visually for SW: Legion, the points just don't connect at all.
Vader, 3 stormtroopers, a bikes unit, dewback rider, AT-ST, scout troopers, shoretroopers, and Bossk are 822 points, bumped to 862 if you count the mortar trooper that come with the shoretroopers
A standard battle for Legion is 800 points, and you tend to add at least some upgrade cards to your units, which also adds points. This is a cool list with a nice 10-11 activations, but it's too many points before you even add upgrades, which can make or break a unit
I come from a land down under, prices be whack.
Resume: yes it's pretty expensive, 350 bucks for barely 1k (and you need 2k), for the other games for 300-200 bucks you have a complete 2k equivalent army, and even for less
When I started in high-school I thought it was expensive at $35 a box... now it's priced me out.
Not like gas, groceries, and taxes don't all cost double. Then these guys (GW) have to fuck us even harder...
Thumbnail is the biggest flex
Is it though?
Legion is surprisingly expensive considering the poor quality of the minis. The soft plastic minis which make of the core of the rebel and imperial armies are garbage. The are the the same sculpts used by Ral Partha for WEG SW mini game and much worse quality.
Anyone who doesn’t understand that these hobbies are expensive are crazy. The global economy is taking a shit and they are raising prices these games should only be bought by people who have already invested in the economy, saved for their home, and have an emergency fun. That being said play Star Wars legion it’s cheaper. Barely.
Someday a historical game just might peak your interest and you'll see how cheap wargaming can be.
Yup. Every once in a while I look at 40k prices to remind myself how reasonable my fleet of resin tanks are.
I got my first ever 40k box set and all the paints and accessories that are genuinely needed (black templars combat patrol) with that and all the paint and shit needed i ended up spending like 5-6 hundred (AUD) lol
If you go with one of the legion battleforces it would be much cheaper.
No Warmachine...? Crazy. Konflict 47 and The Mantic game are so much more obscure. A 50pt starter box for mk4, which is roughly 1k pts in 40k, is $200. That comes with 1 leader character model, 18 to 21 infantry models (4 squads and 1 officer solo), and 2 customizable warjacks/Warbeast. Pushing it up to 75pts(about 1500pts) or 100pts ( about 2k in 40k) can be done by purchasing additional models at $30 to $45 for additional warjacks (depending on size), an expansion box of 13 to 15 infantry models comprising an alternate leader model, 3 squads, and 2 Solos for $130, and or an additional leader model and several mercenary models for $12 to $18 each, per faction
All new Mk4 armies are 3D printed, and many customizable models come designed to be magnetized to allow different load outs by design.
Battletech: A Game of Armored Combat box only costs $45 and comes with everything you need for a game of Classic Battletech(dice, hex maps, 8 mechs, rules, and cardstock standees. Two beginners boxes(Beginner's and Essentials box) come with a good starting point that is still playable at $20 each.
The Clan Invasion expansion is $50 and includes 5 more mechs, standees, maps, rules, and more.
The Alpha Strike box is $80 and has 13 minis terrain and everything else you need to play the game.
Each box is an incredible value.
If you like the models and collecting them slowly it doesnt matter. It will sit somewhere in your display cabinet most of the time.
As a *checks notes* 17 y/o without a job I make paper proxies. I only play at my LGS so everyone’s chill with it 😅
I'd rather use usual gamelength then point values, as it correlates strongly but isn't used to push sales like point values
I would have done a skirmish army for legion to compare it to a 1k army for 40k. 800 pts feels comparable to a 2k army in 40k
Every single year this video will age worse and worse. Fuck GW and yearly price increases.
Difference is you only need 800 points for a SWL army, and can play 500 point skirmish with what comes in the starter box.
I have to disagree with this one eon... 1000 points is half of a normal warhammer game.... i can't agree with this video, lmao
one thing worth noting
space marines are notoriously one of the cheaper 40k armies
2000pts of admech or guard for instance will EASILY set you back 500-600 even with a starter set or 2
even more for some units, ironstrider balistari are literally over a doller per point, if you like that model then a 2000pt army running a lot of them will easily set you back 1000 bucks
You can get an army box for Star Wars Legion, that will give you a whole army, for 150$
It's a lot less expensive if you focus on one army, but good luck with that.
I'm almost intrigued enough in Konflikt 47 to buy into it, and now you've shown me how much I need to spend.
Tempting.
Yeah Warlord games stuff is way cheaper then GW and they constantly give you bonus models and stuff just for buying from them direct. Or you can buy from a third party like your LGS and get stuff dirt cheap.
His math is way off. Please see my comment. Bolt action will cost you one quarter the price or much less than a 2K 40K army. Especially if you source the infantry from other companies. The main cost of Conflict '47 are the large Resin walker models and upgrade turrets. So, find some cheap WW2 infantry on amazon or from other manufacturers and just buy a couple walkers, upgrade turrets and a heavy armor infantry unit from Warlord.
Konflict 47 is mostly piggy backing on the bolt action line. Most of the model are actually conversion kit for their WW2 line. Their basic infantry box are generally in the 30 to 40€ range, but you get generally 30 to 40 figures inside of it instead of the 5 to 10 you get from GW for the same price.
Also, yeah, they're very customer friendly, giving free stuff and bonus model. They have a very extensive range, lot of kit bashing friendly plastic model and they can make a good basis for the IG in 40k. Their fig are slightly smaller and thinner than the heroic scale IG model, but it's quite ideal if you want better contrast with space marine or if you want a better demarcation between female and male guard.
K47 is great fun
I pulled off around $500 minus paints for a 2,000 pt necron army. That was all unassembled and took quite a few months of hunting eBay, local stores, and not being crazy picky just looking for a solid base. 1 Indomitus half-$150, 1 Combat patrol-$100, and a World Scour legion at $250. Not cheap, but you can be cheap-ish if you invest some time scouting deals.
how about you do some Team Yankee and Flames of War and Bolt Action xD ?
How expensive is Total War Warhammer III really? Now, even more!
Play 5.500 points warhammer and bring just a warlord titan.
For $100 you can have a battletech company that 3 people can play and any faction.
Don't underestimate what I can get for free when I sell my body.
3d printer goes BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Hey does anyone know if the Forge Fathers would be a good substitute for Leagues of Votann
If y’all r interested you should paint some battletech for a video
2k points is the norm in fact the game is designed around that point cost.
battletech can be pretty cheap, the starter box is a good sample, but the armored combat game, with just 20 dollars more, is like, 8 miniatures, which is a almost a full company.
My point is tho, that I really wanna see Jay paint up some battletech minis.
To start with the question "how expensive is 40k really" and then pretend that the answer lies in the price of 1000 army is extremely dishonest.
expensive? let me introduce u to 3D printer jesus.
It’s expensive, don’t kid yourself lol
your videos are perfect at 1.25 speed!
Whatever happened to Warmachine/Hordes?
Me 1 second into the video:
Too damn expensive.
For a proper comparison, create a normal army for that game! Or use an agnostic system and compare costs that way.
Man. 3D printing looks really nice competed to this.....
OnePageRules! Models and rulesets.
@@joshgrillo2482 not only them but even model for 40k made by fans are some of the best out there. Someone made the new tyranids models with super high details in less than 2 weeks after they were announced. They were so good literally GW had to take them down with DMCA's
Until you actually put a 3d printed model next to a gw model lol
@@Meako92 for your massed models that are usually the worst value no really no
@@Meako92wrong again idiot.
U mentioned Konflic 47. I would also try Bolt Action and it's Korean war counterpart.
I wish the Korean War side had more support
@@03dashk64 same. I have a late ww2 brits army for bolt action. And now that u bring that up I might get some early cold war tanks for them.
While looking for OPR inspiration, I have to admit that Warhammer doesn't have the most expensive models. Infinity and Malifaux ask a premium for what is basically a skirmish game made of only hero models. But when it comes to a full army, you are usually well served with Just the starter box and one or two extras. ASOIAF gives you a lot of stuff in their starter boxes and you need no assembly, ready to play Out of the box. Oh, the rules are free, but you will need to print some updated cards and profiles. So when you are looking for an affordable full army experience, I can only recommend ASOIAF (Not sponsored, Just enjoying it so much).
Mantic Firefight plastic is rough. Theres alot of fun ideas there, but ive had problems puting them together.
EOB! Please paint battletech!
PLEASE READ: You neglected the main competitor to 40K, Bolt Action. A Bolt action starter army box for most factions is 1000 pts. (Waffen SS 1500 pts.) and costs an average of $170 USD retail and $120 on Amazon. Much, much cheaper than Konfict '47 that includes large resin models and add ons (tank turrets, etc.) specific to that game. And LESS THAN HALF of what your 40K army cost. Keep in mind, Bolt action games are usually played at 1000 - 1250 pts. And 40K is played at 2000 pts.!!! This means Bolt action is one quarter the cost of 40K. Additionally, it is miniature agnostic. You can find cheaper models than what warlord sells from about a dozen other manufacturers and the 3D print market is on fire. Since there is no intellectual property for WW2 tanks, you can find an STL for next to nothing ($6-$8 average) and print as many tanks and other vehicles as you need. Jay, I think your video shows a lot of bias towards Warhammer and it does not do right by the community. Games Workshop is a nothing short of a rip off and those of us that play other games are very much aware.
Ask a New Zealander about GW 😢
1 army or a used Honda civic?
Man morning coffee and eons of battle is the best before work
Just 3d print, 3 dollars for the entire army
I think the initial printer and resin and washing cost turns people off, but printers are getting cheaper and cheaper, GW is getting more and more expensive, and after the initial expensive price, 3d printing dramatically reduces in price
Speaking of Konflikt 47, me and my brother are slowly getting into Bolt action since he is a big WW2 history nerd. And we are currently at 750 points, working towards a 1000 points army over a few months and over a few games, starting from the Band of brothers starter set. And I am currently completely set up to reach 1000 points with just the American half of the starter set and single box of US Airborne. Kit bashing a few things like a light mortar team, a bazooka team, a sniper team and a field medic. Assuming you only take the models into account, I've spend roughly ~110 dollars, but my local games store charges a lot more than what I could find online. Bringing the price down to ~80 $ or even as low as ~65 $ for the Airborne starter army set if you were to shop around a bit.
To be completely transparent, any veteran army like the Airborne is probbly the cheapest army to start off with. But even so, most starter army boxes float around 150 $, even for the Soviets which is largely a horde army. And you can add 30 dollars or so for a tank of your choice from Bolt action or any 1/72 model tank.
I think the biggest issue is that prices feel random. In legion 7 man squads are always around 30-45$. Meanwhile 10 Intercessors is 60$ but only 3 Eradicators is also 60$. An iron strider is 60$ and like 55 points while a Tyrannofex is 250ish points for 60$ and is a much larger model.
All are still very expensive.
North Star / Crusader miniatures 32 (1 platoon) _metal_ WWII figures 71 USD
Matilda II Tank 22 USD vs Warlord (Konflict 47) 38.50 USD
Perry Miniatures - various plastics ranges - 40 figures 23 USD
Or in a different context, for two and a half Leviathan boxes, I can put completely new disc brakes on my classic car.
Let's be honest...
Once you hit the second hand market, Mantic & WARLORD stuff is around 2/3 that cost again...
I've personally built a 1500 (in game points) Warlord Games Bolt Action German army (made mainly from a mix of their fantastic multi pose Sprue range) for less than £100 ($125 US)
Thats given me:
50 troops
Full command HQ
Specials
Supports
Tank
Transports
Sure GW make the most wonderful looking models... but you're paying for them to look good rather than playing a good game
GW and SW - most expensive games... GW is GW and SW is hight licence costs... Mantic Firefight is a good GW W40k alternative. 2-player starter cost 120 Euro. Two 1000 point armies, approx. 50 models, 2 tanks, 2 bike models, dice and rulebook. Game out of a box. All in hard plastics. GW IS very expensive. The FF set has also 20+ dice and all the paper You need.
I really like Your approach to hobby is more than GW. Thanks for that.
There's something to be said about amortisation of costs. Even if I may have spent 30.000€ on my Miniatures in total - that sounds like a lot - ; but over a 25 year time window it breaks down to just over 100 bucks per month - or rather, in todays Money, having three Restaurant Visits for Lunch. It's honestly not alot, and it won't spoil or go bad - many miniatures are perfectly useable even 25 years later. Breaking it down to cost-per-hour-of-diversion, this hobby even when only assuming a third of an hour every day, will be less than 10 bucks per hour of Freetime-Diversion, maybe even just 5 bucks per hour in costs for the actual hobby time. As Hobbies goes - thats peanuts.
There is a problem to the Forge Father list: You don't want to put on 60 to 80 little dwarf shoulder pads. Those are separate pieces and are a pain in the butt to put on.
Also, this isn't too helpful because I like Naval Wargames. Gimme Dem Boats. Kings of War Armada is pretty expensive, about 60 bucks per box, with 45 buck XL ships and 25 buck Flyer packs. It's 190 for a full navy, but you have options. Dystopian Wars, it's ~75 for a starter box of a faction, plus ~100 for a big box Mass 4 Carrier most often, but that'll get you to standard game sizes and maybe beyond depending on your options.