Please just give the stolen land back if it creates mass starvation it's just fine we didn't have mass starvation be you invaded our continent. Stealing is not acceptable everywhere including where they came from.
That bomb went off many years ago my friend. There are now multiple bombs going off every year. Sooner or later there will be nothing left in the country, except for anarchy. What a mess.
It's one-sided and ignorant as to the origin. Why is Lesotho its own sovereignty, yet the Zulu didn't even get a homestate during Apartheid? Why? Other often overlooked points, the Afrikaner was ALSO colonized, TWICE, nearly genocided by the colonizer and that when the Boer started the Trek and settling they DIDN'T have any governmental backing. Also, how was the land stolen? Diaz's crosses was found in the same spots he planted them in 1486. So, if the land was THAT populated, why are they still there? Maybe a fictional history. Why did the Boer Trek with cattle and not a British army then?
The English also stole Irish land. To this day the Duke of Devonshire "owns" the river bed of the Blackwater River. Lord Mountcharles "owns" thousands of acres that was stolen. The land league reform of the late nineteenth century helped get some of the stolen land back to the Irish. After independence, instead of seizing all the remaining stolen land, De Velera the traitor only took back about 6000 acres. To this day the descendants of the English still occupy vast swathes of our country. In South Africa, I would suggest that Black people with agricultural degrees be given control of commercial farms and the ownership distributed in the form of shares (like shares in a company) to the workers and other black people - perhaps in a lottery. The whites should not be paid.
Which people does the anc represent? ?because hearing from the debate it shows that the land was stolen, why do you want to buy a stolen property? ?just take it.
You are mart just take it. The white farmers are paying banks for the land if it is not payed off like you buy an automobile on credit you pay the banks, if someone takes the automobile before it is paid for who continues to pay for it. Hey a s african polotician said she don't need white farmers to grow food she gets her food from the supermarket is that what you think Kafa
White people should face what happened, they should acknowledge that they benefited from the policies of the apartheid gov and all other forms of colonialist gov that came before apartheid.
Zimbabwe land reform did not fail, it only caused temporary pain. The fact is that South Africa current land distribution did not come by willing seller willing buyer, it came by force. The ANC agreed to redistribute land....if the process adopted is not working then another process must be considered. The primary goal after independence was to undo the injustice of the racist apartheid policies. The goal is independent of the process.
2020 (4 years later) and the children still have no food. www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jan/24/zimbabwe-urged-to-prioritise-children-as-record-poverty-causes-food-shortages reliefweb.int/report/zimbabwe/food-shortages-zimbabwe-facts
@@MrArthurGiles Zimbabwe is actually having population boom problem, if starvation is bringing on increased population then the universe must be working upside down over there.
@@Enoch940 Stop deluding yourself. Unlike South Africa, the people of Zimbabwe have their land. So Mandela can be the darling of the west, but Mugabe remains the true hero even after having been deposed for his senile condition of promoting his power hungry & inexperienced daughter, but was still afforded dignity. They face sanctions like a growing number of countries opposed to racial imperialism of the west. ...and as the centre of world economy shifts east their options will get better.
The question of land needs to be addressed, even if it means it may have food security implications and international implications, the sooner we begin a new country the better, even if it means we start from scratch, the gap between the rich and the poor is too huge and in fact it is not getting narrowed down in this current discourse!
you say "The question of land needs to be addressed, even if it means it may have food security implications ..... even if it means we start from scratch" do you really believe that, you would accept, that SA will become like Zimbabwe, or do you think the West (Europe... USA) will send us help (food and money) ... you can definitely forget that
@@11Messalina dont be too scared to become like Zimbabwe Zimbabwe is making big strides in food security withouth the help of USA and West This way of think is based on the belief that the blacks cant farm for their own
When he says FOOD SECURITY,he's talking for him and all the EUROPEAN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS..The indigenous AFRICAN people can provide enough food for themselves, in their OWN food markets same as the ones you see in other parts of AFRICA as well as in otherplaces like china..they have street markets selling food from ;local farmers..EUROPEANS are concerned about feeding themselves while they're OCCUPYING other;s land and making a profit off exporting the food back to EUROPE..My opinion is that they should just cease and desist...GO BACK to europe CHINA is in AFRICA scooping up land to farm on and send the food back home,but they're doing it in exchange for bulding INFRASTRUCTURE,and not just coming in and taking the land thru violence..
+Lazoris Briggs China is a net food IMPORTER. In every successful country, taxpayers and producers are valued. When you start attacking the people who pay for everything, society collapses. Mandela understood this and worked hard to keep the taxpaying population from emigrating. If South Africa's farms were destroyed like in Zimbabwe, then South Africa would suffer a similar, man-made famine. it is madness to take a large farm paying thousands in taxes, employing dozens in wage-paying work, and exporting to earn foreign exchange, and convert it into subsistence farms that provide none of those benefits and have no surplus to sell into the market to feed the people in the cities (go from exporting food to importing food). Most countries work hard to obtain foreign direct investment. For South Africa to start expropriating businesses would be suicidal. Keep in mind, if the white population "went back to Europe," South Africa would collapse. To this day the country is dependent on white engineers, accountants, operations specialists,... South Africa is unique in the world with its skills shortages. It has a first-world infrastructure and a third world workforce.Emigration has been devastating. If you think it is better to have a black-only failed state over a functioning rainbow state, then you are correct. If you want to prove that Africans can actually govern a modern state (something Chinese investor always joke about), then you must follow Mandela and allow the South African state to continue to function with white-owned businesses such as farms. In general, you need to understand that farming is technologically advanced. Modern farms need to be thousands of acres to achieve the necessary economies of scale. The capital costs are in the millions. No country can have a modern agricultural sector with subsistence farming. Peasants without fertilizer or irrigation playing farmer only results in starvation. Keep in mind that most countries in Africa today have over ten times their population before the Europeans came. If you want to return to traditional farming, then you need to starve out 90% of the population. Which leads to the most obvious point, why don't African countries adopt China's one-child policy? This was instrumental in China's development. This is the key to Africa's modernization.
+Garry Perkins Can I go to any successful country and steal land? MOst successful countries first had land reform. Do the 50,000 white farmers really pay that much tax? I doubt it. Most of the farmers in south africa are black farm workers. There is no real parallel. Zimbabwe land reform had many hiccups, lack of capital and machines, lack of titles making loans hard to get. etc. Your argument about economics or production is irrelvent, its a justice issue. Most foreigners invest and buy, the farmers didn't, they just took land. Not at all, we must not allow things to continue, things to continue will guarantee mugabe land reform in SA. Right now the majority wants to follow Mugabe reforms. The ANC is just biding time. They will either lose to the EFF, reform land. Untrue, most african countries have severly under populated due to slavery and colonialism. You want to tell me that South African, africans cannot farm yet somehow those in far poorer countries per capita like cameroon or nigeria can? Why don't African countries adopt China's land reform policy that threw off all of the rich and white land owners from their land? China is equally developed as South Africa. Additionally, Nigeria shows us with its number 1 total economy population growth is good for economics. SA has had little population growth and its economy is doing bad, the Nigerians are growing fast and their economy has passed ours.
China's land reform program was a disaster. Millions of people starved to death afterwards. Read a book my brother. IT WAS A DISASTER! No African country is under-populated. They are all OVER populated. Also, check the record on your tax misconceptions. The majority of personal income tax in South Africa is paid by whites, even though they are ten percent of the population (which is a sign that blacks are still WAY too poor, and much needs to be done regarding education). There has never, in human history, been a successful involuntary transfer of farm land. it always ends in starvation. In China, it was a nightmare. If you want to see successful land reform, check out South Korea or Taiwan (the JCRR in Taiwan is what I wrote my thesis on). The system Mandela established would work perfectly, but the government withdrew the funding. That is the correct way (willing buyer, willing seller). Check out the life of Patrick Soon-Shiong. He was born in Taiwan and left for the US. All the high-paying jobs, taxes, technology, it all went to the US instead of SA. Over 20,000 Taiwanese have emigrated from SA. These were entrepreneurs, scientists, engineers,..., all of that human capital lost. Successful countries import successful people, they do not chase them away. Progress comes from adding value (China in the 1980's to now), not redistributing it (China 1949 to 1977).
+Garry Perkins Then all the other countries are overpopulated, South Africa has a small population, africa has a small population,d espite having the most water and food. O well, its not an issue of starvation but justice. If people starve, they starve, but then zim isn't starving and syria is. Willing buyer, willing seller will not work because the price is too high, there is no money to buy it, it is a waste of resources. O well, the long term we must create out own, we cannot care about the outside world. We must become truly independent, remove the settlers and be self funded, and if we starve, we starve.
hernandayolearyallda I think you would really appreciate some economics training. Highly emotional positions often feel good, but the results of their implementation are so horrible that one must overcome the desire to implement them. The way to increase incomes is through economic growth and development (again, study Taiwan's economic development, or Hong Kong or Singapore)., These countries went from being poorer than most countries in Africa to being as rich as Western European countries or Canada, and they did so with NO NATURAL RESOURCES! Right now South Africa's agricultural sector provides both employment, and more importantly, foreign exchange. The way forward is to increase the educational attainment of South Africans (see Matric passing levels of 80% or more for ALL ethnic groups), While working towards this (and firing any teachers who fail to show up to work), South Africa should solicit foreign investment in manufacturing to employ the masses, and to avoid implementing any sort of minimum wage that would restrict employment. Welcome in entrepreneurs from China, Japan, Taiwan, planet Mars, wherever, so long as they start a business. Employment comes from jobs, and jobs come from SMALL BUSINESS, not state-owned companies. Of course, the best action to take now is to privatize ALL the state-owned enterprises. These are only owned by the state because of apartheid. The ANC should have privatized them 20 years ago. PLEASE, study economics, the real economics with MATH, calculus and statistics, not men with beards talking about "the means of production." The only reason South Africa is not developing as fast as East Asian tigers did is because the government has CHOSEN corruption over national development.
I'm so sick of this threat on food security when other forms of food security route; like aquaponics/aquaculture/hydroponic systems and also promoting urban agriculture/ roof top gardens; this is doable.
I've heard hydroponics is that since it's in water, not soil, there's an issue of food not having enough minerals a opposed to if grown on soil. How true is that. I wouldn't want 5o eat tomato eggs that he no nutrients. Please explain
+TheAndreasHaltstop Its rude to call liberation fighters communist terrorists. Those people were true heroes who stood for what was theirs. African countries are just trying to address the socio economic disparity caused by colonisation and the apartheid. Such language is what those who benefited from such savage systems, use to protect their blood stained wealth and land.
+TheAndreasHaltstop The success of Rhodesia was due to generations of acquired wealth due to free black labour and little costs, zimbabwean black farmer have just started without capital compared to white farmers, although i dont believe in the brutallity of how they were kicked out,
This was a very balanced debate that exposed ignorance on the side of the white half, ignorance on the facts that the Afrikaner regime really did dispossess native South Africans off their land and that Zimbabwe failed because of the heavy economic sanctions imposed upon them by the West. The other side of this, is that the black contingent is unwilling to settle for a compromise that at least tries to guarantee that both races walk away with something in hand while also being able to continue to work together to move the country forward. Whites aren't willing to give the land back and blacks aren't willing to take back just enough to allow everyone to live peacefully.
People are clueless about agriculture in South Africa... The return on investment for a crop farmer is around 3-4% and thats for a large-scale commercial operation(1000+ hectares) with proper infrastructure and large investments(Millions of rands). If you plan on giving farming land to people that are not equipped to produce Maize at commercially competitive prices at around 5+Tons a hectare then these new farmers will be outcompeted and they will go bankrupt! thus leading to escelating food prices and the resulting food insecurity. This idea that farming land will lead economic prosperity is just a pipe dream sprayed out by politicians. Crop agriculture is a very low margin, HIGH risk business venture for anyone in South africa.. especially for someone without vast experience or investment in order to produce food on a large commercial scale. You are setting up our people for failure.. Who or what bank on this planet will invest in a business that doesn't have secure property rights that are defended by the constitution? why would i invest 1 million rands into a maize farm if 5-10 years down the line if someone might liquidate my investment without a return? never mind my principle investment? Also who will carry the 160 Billion rand debt that has been incurred by farmers in this country? The banks wont allow it..
Land reform will accelerate growth in south africa if it is done correctly. We have approximately 30-40 non-white graduates yearly coming from top south african institutions and universitys. We need to tap into this skill and provide them with opportunities to cultivate our beutiful country! These young agricultural graduates have the skill/knowledge but no resources and funding and end up being employed by white companys which have their own interists with very little benefit to the country. If we could encourage these graduates to farm and if we could provide incentives by providing them with support and land, i honestly think south africa will be brighter for our young generations to come in the future! I am a student from the department of agriculture from a south african university and i can confirm that many of my friends from the department have the ability to create jobs,farm, benefit the economy and create small agricultural bussiness if given the support! in this way land can be redistribute to non-whites who have the capacity to succeed in agriculture and by using young graduates they have the drive to ensure that it can be sustainable for their future.
Land reform can be accomplished without theft (or genocide in the case of the Rhodesian farmers). Land reform is a crucial step in developing a nation, when people own their own land/business they learn to rely on themselves, not the government/landowner/slaveowner.
It is with great interest that I have watched the debate. Thank you for this very informative program. I am quite hopeful for the future, programs like this will bring us out of the dark, and to an age of enlightenment, and the knowledge of the truth of our situation in South Africa.
we do not need land reform but we need mental reform,our ancestors were foolish enough to get the land taken from them, so now we have to fight their lost battle?The very farm worked initially agreed to work for that payment under those conditions, why are they fighting(@Andile it is not slavery if you agree) besides the increase of the wages will yield risk to our food security and employment as farms will have to shut down and/or there will be capital intensive production(use machines) and this will yield no income at all for farm-workers.Land reform should not end at the black because the blacks also stole the land from the khoisan people. it does not serve any sense to distribute the land but starve in it.
I am glad their are people like you sir who can address this issue as an adult. These people are arguing about things their ancestors did to one another. The black south african's alive today were never robbed and the whites alive today are not robbers, their ancestors were. They should all now try to move forward and try to learn from the past and instead of trying to reverse injustice, they should be ensure that something like that never happens again.
Declining will only result in a Zim situation, but doing it properly will save it from the Zim situation as it was a political move from the ruling party.
@Nick Gurr Are u drunk? lol...haa haa so in short you are saying the billions you paid/still paying is actually for the resources you take from Africa! please go and ask the people you gave your money to, don't come to my comment section and say nonsense! Eleribu
South Africa you must protect this man he is a revolutionary and will remove the leech's from your country! Do not allow whites to remain in your country, if they are there take everything from them. You are the majority! Love and support from America!
lol why are you South Africans talking about this? Go get your land. Infact I think South Africans should go to the Netherlands and start claiming land.
Hahah nice one man. We should just go and claim that we rightfully own the land in Netherlands and take their natural resource. This is obsurd, enough with the stupid talks. We will take our land back. #EFF
Roses Of Time when was South Africa "first world country " for Indians,Chinese,Blacks,coloureds ect? , you guys are delusional... SA didn't even participate in world evens (sports,Olympics,G8 countries etc SA had a plane crashes, but since 1994 there was never any SA had the most violent criminals under apartheid (state of emergency,bombings SA was most corrupt under Apartheid (no media transparency, SA had the highest gini-coeffient (huge gap in inequality)
Bandit Anansi Did you the land of Siberia in Russia is largely unpopulated. So does that mean I can just go claim it? When your ancestors arrived in the cape did they have a passport? I think not. Who did they pay for that land?
That dude from 24:46 trying to explain what food security is is telling a blatant lie. Food security has nothing to do with making a profit. He needs to readjust his mindset of thinking as a business man talking about competitive advantage and all that nonsense. Food security is by definition the state of having reliable access to a sufficient quantity of affordable, nutritious food. Now this in other words means AVAILABILITY OF GOOD NUTRITIOUS FOOD TO ALL including the poorest. On the other hand our dear minister is a mere passenger to this debate.
My advice, just give them their land. That's what they want. What happens after is their business. There are so many things whites in South Africa can do to feed themselves and their families. Also, farms and land are always for sale around South Africa. Love from Botswana.
I know what your saying. But it's not about that, it's about individuals being told that your land is gone , your life's hard work is gone , your skills irrelevant, all becAuse of the colour of their skin. White farmers can't just give in to these African racist bullies
That is what i say give it to them who will give it to china. If after they get the land and cannot make it work and are hungry don' t bother others starve eat grass, trees whatever or they will eat each other like it was at one time and still happening. China will be the new white crooks
The land can provide only a small income for the poor, other sectors must give financial support. South Africa must stay poor, till a better economic model is discovered and implemented if that is even possible. For the immediate future under black leadership, prospects are bleak.
A question, why do you give the thieves/murderers the chance to fight for what they clearly stole? Would any western country allow any Black individuals or groups to fight to keep what they stole or would they just, throw the individual or group of people in jail?
You don't know anything about South Africa or the history of humanity for that matter. Every inch of land on this earth is "stolen land." Everybody on this earth are descendants of murderers/thieves.
th-cam.com/video/fiKv9MjN9PI/w-d-xo.html By now the number is estimated in excess of R2 Trillion Rand lost due to corruption. That was tax collected by the government.
It was never easy for Cecil John Rhodes to cheat Lobengula and grab the land belonging to the people north across the Limpopo. So why do people think it should be easy to get that land back? Zimbabwe is the only country that has done the best, whether you view it negatively or positively, THE LAND IS BACK TO ITS RIGHTFUL OWNERS.
John M Even when Rhodes invaded the land, John M, several of the 500 plus pioneer settlers died in the process. But that did not defeat the colonial master's objective of stealing the land. In any revolution there is bound to be a victim. Britain managed to create the new (Rhodesia) economy over 90 years and Zimbabwe has only gone through 35 years, and all is promising according to what is on the ground...former security guards and rural folks contributing directly to the economy, producing world-class tobacco. Lives are changing positively - for the previously disadvantaged. From a Zim and global perspective we are on course.
Happiness Chikwanha; That is exactly the problem. Tobacco as the primary crop? The richest nations are pushing to end smoking in their societies while others over produce their own tobacco. According to the U.S. Agency of International Development (USAID) the U.S. provided Zimbabwe $36.3 MILLION (USD) in emergency food aid in 2017 That doesn't sound like a positive atmosphere to me. Maybe once Zimbabwe no longer needs 'emergency food' I'll change my mind, but not until then. That amount also does NOT include the $150 MILLION (USD) aid that goes to the country...So, I ask again is this your definition of doing well?
Thieves? Dutch settlers were here at the time when most Black South Africans (Bantu) immigrated down here. Living a nomadic lifestyle that the African people did, they had no idea of land ownership. They're fighting Europeans about a European ideological concept
you talk as if someone sailing and boom he saw land, empty land and decided to own it. in Africa we had our own ways of doing things, there is nothing wrong with being nomads, that was our way of living you hijacked the process and now everything has to be according to European standards. the reason we cant develop and grow is because we struggle with identity crisis we want to be Africans and act western...
Zimbabweans go to other countries for work cos of zim economic problem but they have their own lands there in Zim even they look beggy in South Africa..... some black zimbabweeans own expensive properties there and they are free. Freedom matters
For the first time I have heard someone also share the same views I have always had about Zimbabwe: that the Western world attacked Zimbabwe and slapped it with sanctions as soon as Mugabe was daring enough to redistribute land. However flawed he was, he earned my respect regardless. It's easy to just quote Zimbabwe as a failure but to delibrately leave out the fact that the West attacked that country and made sure it collapsed, would be essentially to lie.
Matt..black people having been in Britain since about the 15th century..UK I believe only has two black farmers..one a Zimbabwean renting a few fields and the other is actually called The black farmer. But in Africa you must have whites owning 87% of African land..in Namibia they own 90%..in the case of Zimbabwe and Namibia whites are 1% or less of the population..how crazy is that..could black people own land in Europe on that ratio..stolen land must be taken back without payment..
The Cosmos is moving toward equilibrium. Extremes are being tempered, excess is beginning to shift toward the empty. You can use these moderating influences to strike a balance in the world around you. Remember, though, that this Leveling will not come about through an arrogant confiscation of excess, but through subtler persuasions. Modesty and moderation are the keys.
Nelson Mandela hasn't changed much because black South Africans have to create prosperity for themselves.Getting a little is better than getting nothing.
It is only the #EFF with capacity and Policies that speaks into the heart felt issues of today. Unless we wake up to this bleeding nation, and address its wounds, the time bomb we are, is but only a stone throw away...
Garry Perkins That is really not an American accent, its just an English home language "accent". South African english(British English) is actually very different to american english.
The Debate was rigged from the beginning. The Black South Africans will do & say anything to get hold of what they want in their country, in any situation. Then they destroy it, because they all want their portion, your portion & more. They have shown a genuine propensity for family, working & honesty under the guidance of any leadership. Left alone, they have always self destructed. That is due in part to a lack of education & morality (not a necessity in an African's life). Now they are gathering under a biased bunch of hooligans & preparing to physically take the land. Death & starvation for all South Africans will be the order of the day. ,
This debate was completed at 37:02 for me! You cannot argue what was said there, and actually no one did. Radical maybe, but also the only thing that was honestly put. The associate professor played her bit as well, she highlighted very critical issues on redress vs economic growth. And I think there lies a solution to this debate, forget Zim, what is it that we are trying to achieve with land reform. If we want both, then all parties need to unequivocally deal in ernest, white people should give back the land where natives were displaced into slavery and government should support those new black farmers. Where legitimate title holders farm, government, unions and commercial farmers should pay farm workers adequately, and share schemes should be championed. For both scenarios to work all stakeholders must act strategically, compassionately and cohesively, otherwise we can then start talking about a Zim type expropriation and food security propaganda
black people were forced to move from their lands now what we are advocating for is that black people shouldn't buy back what was theirs but we seek to say that they should be given what belongs to them if really we are correcting the imbalances and what was done unlawfully n wrong during apartheid era...if not then there the unrest will always be there hence these people want back their lands👌
I come from Zimbabwe and I tell you that it is a hell hole out there I actually ran away from that country and I beg south Africans to not go the same root due to anger.
Genius Noble your the reason why Africa is not developing, your fellow are struggling their after they achieve you will return your big mouth wanting an inheritance
Zimbabwe or African leaders did not understanding what to do for themselves they like or African's like to be in slave in their own country.its like to gave your wife to an other man to be pregnant
@@philpottkentucky4802 not like you think this is the whites who come with the bible in this the whites who did not hear what the blacks asked to not take their land.
The Art of being objective. The white man makes a lot of sense. You can see in his eyes that he wants to remain in SA. But you can tell by the same eyes that he’s hurt by the fact that he is in a war where in order to survive, someone must die. And he doesn’t want to die. He wishes white people never did what they did, but hopes that the black man will not mirror that history. As sad as the situation is, it’s emotionally artistic in the brush of race relations. We do not need to murder white people. We need to talk, admit, agree, apologize, amend, and forgive.
Victor O. Udora: I am an elderly black America. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Too, my concern with the taking and redistributing the farmland, that it "will" be as the white African stated... "The West and other European countries will side with white Africans staging economic shut down creating hardship for all South Africans. It is one thing to speak of "enduring hardship" when you are fed and strong, but when you must go without food due to lack of equiptment and other resources to cultivate and maintain the land and crops, as was being explained by the country's representative, "new landowners will need government assistance," that strength will dwindle as even more will experience poverty. The youth it seems are pushing for immediate action, and the elders are supporting the irrational desire for immediate action out of fear of their youths, rather than help them to use foresight when leaping without looking. Although, the youth have a point as this decision has lingered far too long, appearing no real consideration or political action being taken to resolve the issue. My prayers be for South African for a resolve satisfactory to all its ppl.
Tell Mugabe that we Italians are going to learn from him and start pushing out blacks, so get ready to pull out the race card and accuse us Italians of being racists, but it won't work
@@trailduster6bt More fire pon ian smith. More fire pon botha. More fire pon Cecil rhodes. I and I a trample apathied. Apartheid huh weh...nuh matter where sen run sen can't hide. Well get them all one day. Long live selassie i. Long live mugabe. Long live Michel manley. Long live fidel. Long live Hugo chavez.
This brotha on point and he speaking facts y'all better listen to that brotha im african American and telling african people to take what he say seriously he speak the truth
These people have no idea what they are saying or talking about. It’s all emotion and even though it will make these things much worse they don’t care because they are angry and isn’t know any better. These people don’t even understand basic economics. The only way you can’t compete with competitors and sell your products is if you can compete with the price. When all these other country’s in Africa have cheaper labor and can produce and sell their product at cheaper rates that means South Africa can’t compete or sell their product for the price they need to keep the business alive. You can’t just double to triple your cost of doing business and think everything will be ok. The biggest expense in any business is payroll/ staff.
It seems to me that the problem is resolved by putting a minimum wage to labour and pay people, who can't find a job, a decent amount of money to survive. Taking land away and give that to people who do not have a clue is the best way to destroy what is still left.
"I freed a thousand slaves. I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves"! # Harriet Tubman
Islam and christianity are the true slave masters of our people
Who sold them the land? Let's see. You come to my house, sat on my table eating my food, then turn around ask me to pay you so you can leave.
The big debate team is a amazing. It takes balls to have this kind of debate in South Africa.
Except it wasn't really a debate. All one-sided, but still interesting to hear what the views of the audience were.
@@robkading5274racist scumbag
@@robkading5274Was it a multiple-sided debate when the land was stolen during apartheid❓❓😅
@@OStarBlog101Tech I don’t know - I wasn’t there.
Please just give the stolen land back if it creates mass starvation it's just fine we didn't have mass starvation be you invaded our continent. Stealing is not acceptable everywhere including where they came from.
9 years gone and still nothing from the corrupt ANC
Zim experiement didnt work...SA was involved so that is why
Bottom line: the ANC has been a let down. This land issue won't go away. It NEEDS to be addressed!
No land shall go into the hands of the original owner as long as ANC is government of this country
SA sitting on a time bomb
That bomb went off many years ago my friend. There are now multiple bombs going off every year. Sooner or later there will be nothing left in the country, except for anarchy. What a mess.
Andile understands the depth of the africans hurt over the past centuries. I agree with his points. Thank you Andile!
It's one-sided and ignorant as to the origin. Why is Lesotho its own sovereignty, yet the Zulu didn't even get a homestate during Apartheid? Why? Other often overlooked points, the Afrikaner was ALSO colonized, TWICE, nearly genocided by the colonizer and that when the Boer started the Trek and settling they DIDN'T have any governmental backing.
Also, how was the land stolen? Diaz's crosses was found in the same spots he planted them in 1486. So, if the land was THAT populated, why are they still there?
Maybe a fictional history. Why did the Boer Trek with cattle and not a British army then?
The English also stole Irish land. To this day the Duke of Devonshire "owns" the river bed of the Blackwater River. Lord Mountcharles "owns" thousands of acres that was stolen. The land league reform of the late nineteenth century helped get some of the stolen land back to the Irish. After independence, instead of seizing all the remaining stolen land, De Velera the traitor only took back about 6000 acres. To this day the descendants of the English still occupy vast swathes of our country. In South Africa, I would suggest that Black people with agricultural degrees be given control of commercial farms and the ownership distributed in the form of shares (like shares in a company) to the workers and other black people - perhaps in a lottery. The whites should not be paid.
+Paul OSullivan the whites can, at best, work on the farm as regular employees as they have experience in farming
Which people does the anc represent? ?because hearing from the debate it shows that the land was stolen, why do you want to buy a stolen property? ?just take it.
+Amos Ngoma
preventing the Zim way? fearing the West dis-investment,wars etc
You are mart just take it. The white farmers are paying banks for the land if it is not payed off like you buy an automobile on credit you pay the banks, if someone takes the automobile before it is paid for who continues to pay for it. Hey a s african polotician said she don't need white farmers to grow food she gets her food from the supermarket is that what you think Kafa
White people should face what happened, they should acknowledge that they benefited from the policies of the apartheid gov and all other forms of colonialist gov that came before apartheid.
You can never have a LAND DEBATE without inviting Andile Mngxi on the panel.
This was very interesting, and at the same time very educational. Only time will tell which route South Africa takes.
Andile you are the man and you're making points
Zimbabwe land reform did not fail, it only caused temporary pain. The fact is that South Africa current land distribution did not come by willing seller willing buyer, it came by force. The ANC agreed to redistribute land....if the process adopted is not working then another process must be considered. The primary goal after independence was to undo the injustice of the racist apartheid policies. The goal is independent of the process.
Waryaa Moxamad do you really think that twenty years of starvation is only a temporary pain?
2020 (4 years later) and the children still have no food. www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jan/24/zimbabwe-urged-to-prioritise-children-as-record-poverty-causes-food-shortages
reliefweb.int/report/zimbabwe/food-shortages-zimbabwe-facts
@@MrArthurGiles Zimbabwe is actually having population boom problem, if starvation is bringing on increased population then the universe must be working upside down over there.
6 years later Waryaa, Zimbabweans suffering still today . You still have to much air between your ears.
@@Enoch940 Stop deluding yourself. Unlike South Africa, the people of Zimbabwe have their land. So Mandela can be the darling of the west, but Mugabe remains the true hero even after having been deposed for his senile condition of promoting his power hungry & inexperienced daughter, but was still afforded dignity.
They face sanctions like a growing number of countries opposed to racial imperialism of the west. ...and as the centre of world economy shifts east their options will get better.
The question of land needs to be addressed, even if it means it may have food security implications and international implications, the sooner we begin a new country the better, even if it means we start from scratch, the gap between the rich and the poor is too huge and in fact it is not getting narrowed down in this current discourse!
you say "The question of land needs to be addressed, even if it means it may have food security implications ..... even if it means we start from scratch"
do you really believe that, you would accept, that SA will become like Zimbabwe, or do you think the West (Europe... USA) will send us help (food and money) ... you can definitely forget that
You need to train people in farming or form co-operatives to do community farming before redistribution. Else you gonna go down the Zimbabwe route
@@11Messalina dont be too scared to become like Zimbabwe Zimbabwe is making big strides in food security withouth the help of USA and West
This way of think is based on the belief that the blacks cant farm for their own
@@JayShona28 hello, I'm happy about that and yes, I also think that the West / USA shouldn't interfere everywhere, basically
@@tylerdavidson2400community farming doesn’t work it was tried in China and failed.
Love how the brother in the light blue shirt spoke.. He has that revolutionary mind
Andile Mngxitama leader of BLF party
He is very violent and ignorant, and saying bullshit like farming is bad for the environment, he doesn’t know what starvation can do.
No one will ever do the Big debate like this lady..
Wrong 😂😂😂
@pgmbodybuilding323 lol who then
When he says FOOD SECURITY,he's talking for him and all the EUROPEAN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS..The indigenous AFRICAN people can provide enough food for themselves, in their OWN food markets same as the ones you see in other parts of AFRICA as well as in otherplaces like china..they have street markets selling food from ;local farmers..EUROPEANS are concerned about feeding themselves while they're OCCUPYING other;s land and making a profit off exporting the food back to EUROPE..My opinion is that they should just cease and desist...GO BACK to europe
CHINA is in AFRICA scooping up land to farm on and send the food back home,but they're doing it in exchange for bulding INFRASTRUCTURE,and not just coming in and taking the land thru violence..
+Lazoris Briggs China is a net food IMPORTER. In every successful country, taxpayers and producers are valued. When you start attacking the people who pay for everything, society collapses. Mandela understood this and worked hard to keep the taxpaying population from emigrating. If South Africa's farms were destroyed like in Zimbabwe, then South Africa would suffer a similar, man-made famine.
it is madness to take a large farm paying thousands in taxes, employing dozens in wage-paying work, and exporting to earn foreign exchange, and convert it into subsistence farms that provide none of those benefits and have no surplus to sell into the market to feed the people in the cities (go from exporting food to importing food).
Most countries work hard to obtain foreign direct investment. For South Africa to start expropriating businesses would be suicidal. Keep in mind, if the white population "went back to Europe," South Africa would collapse. To this day the country is dependent on white engineers, accountants, operations specialists,...
South Africa is unique in the world with its skills shortages. It has a first-world infrastructure and a third world workforce.Emigration has been devastating. If you think it is better to have a black-only failed state over a functioning rainbow state, then you are correct. If you want to prove that Africans can actually govern a modern state (something Chinese investor always joke about), then you must follow Mandela and allow the South African state to continue to function with white-owned businesses such as farms.
In general, you need to understand that farming is technologically advanced. Modern farms need to be thousands of acres to achieve the necessary economies of scale. The capital costs are in the millions. No country can have a modern agricultural sector with subsistence farming. Peasants without fertilizer or irrigation playing farmer only results in starvation. Keep in mind that most countries in Africa today have over ten times their population before the Europeans came. If you want to return to traditional farming, then you need to starve out 90% of the population.
Which leads to the most obvious point, why don't African countries adopt China's one-child policy? This was instrumental in China's development. This is the key to Africa's modernization.
+Garry Perkins
Can I go to any successful country and steal land? MOst successful countries first had land reform. Do the 50,000 white farmers really pay that much tax? I doubt it. Most of the farmers in south africa are black farm workers. There is no real parallel. Zimbabwe land reform had many hiccups, lack of capital and machines, lack of titles making loans hard to get. etc. Your argument about economics or production is irrelvent, its a justice issue. Most foreigners invest and buy, the farmers didn't, they just took land. Not at all, we must not allow things to continue, things to continue will guarantee mugabe land reform in SA. Right now the majority wants to follow Mugabe reforms.
The ANC is just biding time. They will either lose to the EFF, reform land. Untrue, most african countries have severly under populated due to slavery and colonialism. You want to tell me that South African, africans cannot farm yet somehow those in far poorer countries per capita like cameroon or nigeria can? Why don't African countries adopt China's land reform policy that threw off all of the rich and white land owners from their land? China is equally developed as South Africa. Additionally, Nigeria shows us with its number 1 total economy population growth is good for economics. SA has had little population growth and its economy is doing bad, the Nigerians are growing fast and their economy has passed ours.
China's land reform program was a disaster. Millions of people starved to death afterwards. Read a book my brother. IT WAS A DISASTER!
No African country is under-populated. They are all OVER populated. Also, check the record on your tax misconceptions. The majority of personal income tax in South Africa is paid by whites, even though they are ten percent of the population (which is a sign that blacks are still WAY too poor, and much needs to be done regarding education).
There has never, in human history, been a successful involuntary transfer of farm land. it always ends in starvation. In China, it was a nightmare.
If you want to see successful land reform, check out South Korea or Taiwan (the JCRR in Taiwan is what I wrote my thesis on).
The system Mandela established would work perfectly, but the government withdrew the funding. That is the correct way (willing buyer, willing seller).
Check out the life of Patrick Soon-Shiong. He was born in Taiwan and left for the US. All the high-paying jobs, taxes, technology, it all went to the US instead of SA. Over 20,000 Taiwanese have emigrated from SA. These were entrepreneurs, scientists, engineers,..., all of that human capital lost. Successful countries import successful people, they do not chase them away. Progress comes from adding value (China in the 1980's to now), not redistributing it (China 1949 to 1977).
+Garry Perkins Then all the other countries are overpopulated, South Africa has a small population, africa has a small population,d espite having the most water and food.
O well, its not an issue of starvation but justice. If people starve, they starve, but then zim isn't starving and syria is. Willing buyer, willing seller will not work because the price is too high, there is no money to buy it, it is a waste of resources.
O well, the long term we must create out own, we cannot care about the outside world. We must become truly independent, remove the settlers and be self funded, and if we starve, we starve.
hernandayolearyallda I think you would really appreciate some economics training. Highly emotional positions often feel good, but the results of their implementation are so horrible that one must overcome the desire to implement them.
The way to increase incomes is through economic growth and development (again, study Taiwan's economic development, or Hong Kong or Singapore)., These countries went from being poorer than most countries in Africa to being as rich as Western European countries or Canada, and they did so with NO NATURAL RESOURCES!
Right now South Africa's agricultural sector provides both employment, and more importantly, foreign exchange. The way forward is to increase the educational attainment of South Africans (see Matric passing levels of 80% or more for ALL ethnic groups), While working towards this (and firing any teachers who fail to show up to work), South Africa should solicit foreign investment in manufacturing to employ the masses, and to avoid implementing any sort of minimum wage that would restrict employment. Welcome in entrepreneurs from China, Japan, Taiwan, planet Mars, wherever, so long as they start a business.
Employment comes from jobs, and jobs come from SMALL BUSINESS, not state-owned companies. Of course, the best action to take now is to privatize ALL the state-owned enterprises. These are only owned by the state because of apartheid. The ANC should have privatized them 20 years ago.
PLEASE, study economics, the real economics with MATH, calculus and statistics, not men with beards talking about "the means of production." The only reason South Africa is not developing as fast as East Asian tigers did is because the government has CHOSEN corruption over national development.
I'm so sick of this threat on food security when other forms of food security route; like aquaponics/aquaculture/hydroponic systems and also promoting urban agriculture/ roof top gardens; this is doable.
I've heard hydroponics is that since it's in water, not soil, there's an issue of food not having enough minerals a opposed to if grown on soil. How true is that. I wouldn't want 5o eat tomato eggs that he no nutrients. Please explain
Is it practical for large scale ?
Not on an industrial scale and to meet the demands of a modern city.
How do you buy your own land? Just compensate development
Zimbabwe inflation was due to sanctions and sabotage, not due to land redistribution.
Waryaa Moxamad There were even more severe sanctions imposed on Zimbabwe when it was Rhodesia in the 1970s and the economy was still doing fine
+TheAndreasHaltstop Its rude to call liberation fighters communist terrorists. Those people were true heroes who stood for what was theirs. African countries are just trying to address the socio economic disparity caused by colonisation and the apartheid. Such language is what those who benefited from such savage systems, use to protect their blood stained wealth and land.
+TheAndreasHaltstop The success of Rhodesia was due to generations of acquired wealth due to free black labour and little costs, zimbabwean black farmer have just started without capital compared to white farmers, although i dont believe in the brutallity of how they were kicked out,
This was a very balanced debate that exposed ignorance on the side of the white half, ignorance on the facts that the Afrikaner regime really did dispossess native South Africans off their land and that Zimbabwe failed because of the heavy economic sanctions imposed upon them by the West. The other side of this, is that the black contingent is unwilling to settle for a compromise that at least tries to guarantee that both races walk away with something in hand while also being able to continue to work together to move the country forward. Whites aren't willing to give the land back and blacks aren't willing to take back just enough to allow everyone to live peacefully.
People are clueless about agriculture in South Africa... The return on investment for a crop farmer is around 3-4% and thats for a large-scale commercial operation(1000+ hectares) with proper infrastructure and large investments(Millions of rands). If you plan on giving farming land to people that are not equipped to produce Maize at commercially competitive prices at around 5+Tons a hectare then these new farmers will be outcompeted and they will go bankrupt! thus leading to escelating food prices and the resulting food insecurity. This idea that farming land will lead economic prosperity is just a pipe dream sprayed out by politicians. Crop agriculture is a very low margin, HIGH risk business venture for anyone in South africa.. especially for someone without vast experience or investment in order to produce food on a large commercial scale. You are setting up our people for failure..
Who or what bank on this planet will invest in a business that doesn't have secure property rights that are defended by the constitution? why would i invest 1 million rands into a maize farm if 5-10 years down the line if someone might liquidate my investment without a return? never mind my principle investment?
Also who will carry the 160 Billion rand debt that has been incurred by farmers in this country? The banks wont allow it..
Well siad Mr Price!
Land reform will accelerate growth in south africa if it is done correctly.
We have approximately 30-40 non-white graduates yearly coming from top south african institutions and universitys. We need to tap into this skill and provide them with opportunities to cultivate our beutiful country! These young agricultural graduates have the skill/knowledge but no resources and funding and end up being employed by white companys which have their own interists with very little benefit to the country. If we could encourage these graduates to farm and if we could provide incentives by providing them with support and land, i honestly think south africa will be brighter for our young generations to come in the future! I am a student from the department of agriculture from a south african university and i can confirm that many of my friends from the department have the ability to create jobs,farm, benefit the economy and create small agricultural bussiness if given the support! in this way land can be redistribute to non-whites who have the capacity to succeed in agriculture and by using young graduates they have the drive to ensure that it can be sustainable for their future.
Land reform can be accomplished without theft (or genocide in the case of the Rhodesian farmers). Land reform is a crucial step in developing a nation, when people own their own land/business they learn to rely on themselves, not the government/landowner/slaveowner.
It’s not that easy to farm you need years of knowledge and business sense to keep it profitable university doesn’t teach that.
Profound words by Prof Ben Cousins. thank Prof
Best host ever!!!!!! I love you for your patience!
Deputy minister is useless😂😂he doesn't know what is talking about
How do you bring Tsenoli to such an important engagement mara? The man is clueless in every way. I love the lady in red's perspective of things
It is with great interest that I have watched the debate. Thank you for this very informative program. I am quite hopeful for the future, programs like this will bring us out of the dark, and to an age of enlightenment, and the knowledge of the truth of our situation in South Africa.
When I look at that minister, I understand what nepotism and corruption means
😂😂
GO MALEMA GO.
we do not need land reform but we need mental reform,our ancestors were foolish enough to get the land taken from them, so now we have to fight their lost battle?The very farm worked initially agreed to work for that payment under those conditions, why are they fighting(@Andile it is not slavery if you agree) besides the increase of the wages will yield risk to our food security and employment as farms will have to shut down and/or there will be capital intensive production(use machines) and this will yield no income at all for farm-workers.Land reform should not end at the black because the blacks also stole the land from the khoisan people. it does not serve any sense to distribute the land but starve in it.
I am glad their are people like you sir who can address this issue as an adult. These people are arguing about things their ancestors did to one another. The black south african's alive today were never robbed and the whites alive today are not robbers, their ancestors were. They should all now try to move forward and try to learn from the past and instead of trying to reverse injustice, they should be ensure that something like that never happens again.
You are an afrikkaner, troll.
I am no Afrikaner, I merely am a man of good economic sense. Much like Fistos Mohlatlole here.
trailduster6bt You are very funny. The sins of the father shall be visited by the child. So your rhetoric is irrelevant.
I thought South Africa had a secular constitution, your Christian rhetoric (The sins of the father shall be visited by the child) is irrelevant
Andile You are on-Point!
Thank you Andile,you're a great speaker.
They should have brought a more articulate speaker on behalf of Government...
Declining will only result in a Zim situation, but doing it properly will save it from the Zim situation as it was a political move from the ruling party.
most people want to buy their food in a supermarket, not grow it them selves.
That is a honest man. He is suitable for the program.
sanction hurt Zimbabwe economy.
But very liberated... In our plots and farms...
people starve but they blame the climate. They want the farmers back.
then why did a major amount of their land become unfarmable within years of reform?
Powerful knowledge full black brother speak the truth
why can't Africa be left alone?
why are ''you'' obsessed with Africa, its lands and resources?
leave Africa alone!
@Nick Gurr Are u drunk? lol...haa haa so in short you are saying the billions you paid/still paying is actually for the resources you take from Africa! please go and ask the people you gave your money to, don't come to my comment section and say nonsense! Eleribu
@Onion Ninja a black men invented the toilet, you didnt invent everything😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@ayobampilo5762
Inventor of flush toilet: Joseph Bramah, Josh Harrington, and Ismail Al-Jazari
@Mike White most of the RICHIES of Europe comes from Africa, the payout is due to guilt.
@Mike White we already know the truth, the only race that brought pain to all humans, killed and all evil you can Name
South Africa you must protect this man he is a revolutionary and will remove the leech's from your country! Do not allow whites to remain in your country, if they are there take everything from them. You are the majority! Love and support from America!
South Africa be smart in what you are doing , are else it could become desasterous
Look at what happened in zimbabwe the same thing has begun in SA 2020. People will starve no food produced from stolen farms.
lol why are you South Africans talking about this? Go get your land. Infact I think South Africans should go to the Netherlands and start claiming land.
Hahah nice one man. We should just go and claim that we rightfully own the land in Netherlands and take their natural resource. This is obsurd, enough with the stupid talks. We will take our land back. #EFF
Roses Of Time Bull shit Whites only colonized the cape. Then they began expanded it into other territory already inhabited by natives.
Roses Of Time when was South Africa "first world country " for Indians,Chinese,Blacks,coloureds ect? , you guys are delusional...
SA didn't even participate in world evens (sports,Olympics,G8 countries etc
SA had a plane crashes, but since 1994 there was never any
SA had the most violent criminals under apartheid (state of emergency,bombings
SA was most corrupt under Apartheid (no media transparency,
SA had the highest gini-coeffient (huge gap in inequality)
Bandit Anansi Did you the land of Siberia in Russia is largely unpopulated. So does that mean I can just go claim it? When your ancestors arrived in the cape did they have a passport? I think not. Who did they pay for that land?
The panel was very diverse & well informed... Land qn v/s land restitution
The minister's expression at 14:21 almost killed me. 😂😂😂 That is how I look at 'white' people 😡😡😡
😂😂😂😂
That dude from 24:46 trying to explain what food security is is telling a blatant lie. Food security has nothing to do with making a profit. He needs to readjust his mindset of thinking as a business man talking about competitive advantage and all that nonsense. Food security is by definition the state of having reliable access to a sufficient quantity of affordable, nutritious food. Now this in other words means AVAILABILITY OF GOOD NUTRITIOUS FOOD TO ALL including the poorest. On the other hand our dear minister is a mere passenger to this debate.
My advice, just give them their land. That's what they want. What happens after is their business. There are so many things whites in South Africa can do to feed themselves and their families. Also, farms and land are always for sale around South Africa. Love from Botswana.
I know what your saying. But it's not about that, it's about individuals being told that your land is gone , your life's hard work is gone , your skills irrelevant, all becAuse of the colour of their skin. White farmers can't just give in to these African racist bullies
That is what i say give it to them who will give it to china. If after they get the land and cannot make it work and are hungry don' t bother others starve eat grass, trees whatever or they will eat each other like it was at one time and still happening. China will be the new white crooks
Nobody is going to buy land in South Africa now. You can kiss foreign investment goodbye.
The land can provide only a small income for the poor, other sectors must give financial support. South Africa must stay poor, till a better economic model is discovered and implemented if that is even possible. For the immediate future under black leadership, prospects are bleak.
A question, why do you give the thieves/murderers the chance to fight for what they clearly stole?
Would any western country allow any Black individuals or groups to fight to keep what they stole or would they just, throw the individual or group of people in jail?
You don't know anything about South Africa or the history of humanity for that matter. Every inch of land on this earth is "stolen land." Everybody on this earth are descendants of murderers/thieves.
Negotiate with the thieves who stole your land to get it back. I have never heard anything so rediulous
th-cam.com/video/fiKv9MjN9PI/w-d-xo.html
By now the number is estimated in excess of R2 Trillion Rand lost due to corruption. That was tax collected by the government.
It was never easy for Cecil John Rhodes to cheat Lobengula and grab the land belonging to the people north across the Limpopo. So why do people think it should be easy to get that land back? Zimbabwe is the only country that has done the best, whether you view it negatively or positively, THE LAND IS BACK TO ITS RIGHTFUL OWNERS.
why dont you go live there then :)
wesley hammond I actually stay in Harare bro.
John M Even when Rhodes invaded the land, John M, several of the 500 plus pioneer settlers died in the process. But that did not defeat the colonial master's objective of stealing the land. In any revolution there is bound to be a victim. Britain managed to create the new (Rhodesia) economy over 90 years and Zimbabwe has only gone through 35 years, and all is promising according to what is on the ground...former security guards and rural folks contributing directly to the economy, producing world-class tobacco. Lives are changing positively - for the previously disadvantaged. From a Zim and global perspective we are on course.
and they are all dying...wowee.
Happiness Chikwanha; That is exactly the problem. Tobacco as the primary crop? The richest nations are pushing to end smoking in their societies while others over produce their own tobacco. According to the U.S. Agency of International Development (USAID) the U.S. provided Zimbabwe $36.3 MILLION (USD) in emergency food aid in 2017 That doesn't sound like a positive atmosphere to me. Maybe once Zimbabwe no longer needs 'emergency food' I'll change my mind, but not until then. That amount also does NOT include the $150 MILLION (USD) aid that goes to the country...So, I ask again is this your definition of doing well?
What's more important: individual property rights or correcting social injustices?
Thieves? Dutch settlers were here at the time when most Black South Africans (Bantu) immigrated down here. Living a nomadic lifestyle that the African people did, they had no idea of land ownership.
They're fighting Europeans about a European ideological concept
just because you go out there and put a stake on the ground, it doesn't mean that land is yours.
you talk as if someone sailing and boom he saw land, empty land and decided to own it. in Africa we had our own ways of doing things, there is nothing wrong with being nomads, that was our way of living you hijacked the process and now everything has to be according to European standards. the reason we cant develop and grow is because we struggle with identity crisis we want to be Africans and act western...
Tarquin Ogilvie
Wrong! It's black land
@@wanderaemmanuel3415 period
Zimbabweans go to other countries for work cos of zim economic problem but they have their own lands there in Zim even they look beggy in South Africa..... some black zimbabweeans own expensive properties there and they are free. Freedom matters
Atleast Zimbabwe solved this issue, long back. Atleast our current war is now with my fellow brother
Idama iroro
Cool. Enjoy your poverty.
For the first time I have heard someone also share the same views I have always had about Zimbabwe: that the Western world attacked Zimbabwe and slapped it with sanctions as soon as Mugabe was daring enough to redistribute land. However flawed he was, he earned my respect regardless. It's easy to just quote Zimbabwe as a failure but to delibrately leave out the fact that the West attacked that country and made sure it collapsed, would be essentially to lie.
Nope they were free to trade with other countries plus last time I checked the western world didn’t cause crops to fail.
That guy knows what he was talking!!! I support his views 1000%
I bet the next African war lord is in this room at this moment.
The Minister's word of the day. "CRITICAL"
Matt..black people having been in Britain since about the 15th century..UK I believe only has two black farmers..one a Zimbabwean renting a few fields and the other is actually called The black farmer. But in Africa you must have whites owning 87% of African land..in Namibia they own 90%..in the case of Zimbabwe and Namibia whites are 1% or less of the population..how crazy is that..could black people own land in Europe on that ratio..stolen land must be taken back without payment..
It was their land In the first place. Take your land back and share it with the people of that country
Zimbabwe style is the best..sanctions worsened the situation..if Zimbabwe wasn't sanctioned they would be far by now..now Zimbabwe is rising
South Africa during Apartheid was sanctioned incessantly. The whites did alright.
The Cosmos is moving toward equilibrium.
Extremes are being tempered, excess is beginning to shift toward the empty.
You can use these moderating influences to strike a balance in the world around you.
Remember, though, that this Leveling will not come about through an arrogant confiscation of excess, but through subtler persuasions.
Modesty and moderation are the keys.
Sine when did invaders follow due process?
Nelson Mandela hasn't changed much because black South Africans have to create prosperity for themselves.Getting a little is better than getting nothing.
Non of them look like they haven’t eaten!!
A part worker owned farm is obviously the best solution.
zimbabwean style!
It is only the #EFF with capacity and Policies that speaks into the heart felt issues of today. Unless we wake up to this bleeding nation, and address its wounds, the time bomb we are, is but only a stone throw away...
Quote "Government operates by Law", i nearly died from laughing so hard! Hahahaha.....
Which law? 🤷♂️The law created by the thief, to protect himself. That’s hilarious 🤦♂️😡
Everything begins in the land.
The lady in red is the most intelligent in the room.
+Waryaa Moxamad
correct shes having a Masters...plus she a humble nice lady
but who is making sense in this debate, for a way forward?
+Kiss Mlungu Why does she have an American accent?
Garry Perkins
well it might happened that she studied/ grow up in America but she a SAn....I like her
Garry Perkins That is really not an American accent, its just an English home language "accent". South African english(British English) is actually very different to american english.
We don’t need land reform. We need higher wages for farm workers, better working conditions and unions.
nah we need land reform
I agree, building the ecomy, protecting agriculture, making us more competitive in the world ecomy is important.
The Debate was rigged from the beginning. The Black South Africans will do & say anything to get hold of what they want in their country, in any situation. Then they destroy it, because they all want their portion, your portion & more. They have shown a genuine propensity for family, working & honesty under the guidance of any leadership. Left alone, they have always self destructed. That is due in part to a lack of education & morality (not a necessity in an African's life). Now they are gathering under a biased bunch of hooligans & preparing to physically take the land. Death & starvation for all South Africans will be the order of the day. ,
This debate was completed at 37:02 for me!
You cannot argue what was said there, and actually no one did. Radical maybe, but also the only thing that was honestly put.
The associate professor played her bit as well, she highlighted very critical issues on redress vs economic growth. And I think there lies a solution to this debate, forget Zim, what is it that we are trying to achieve with land reform. If we want both, then all parties need to unequivocally deal in ernest, white people should give back the land where natives were displaced into slavery and government should support those new black farmers. Where legitimate title holders farm, government, unions and commercial farmers should pay farm workers adequately, and share schemes should be championed. For both scenarios to work all stakeholders must act strategically, compassionately and cohesively, otherwise we can then start talking about a Zim type expropriation and food security propaganda
Mlungisi Khanyile ...Legitimate land holders???
Why is these people are not being honest the land was stolen give it back.
The Zimbabwe style land reform programme was heavily undermined by the U.S. and the Western Sanctions not that it was an ultimate fiasco on its own.
black people were forced to move from their lands now what we are advocating for is that black people shouldn't buy back what was theirs but we seek to say that they should be given what belongs to them if really we are correcting the imbalances and what was done unlawfully n wrong during apartheid era...if not then there the unrest will always be there hence these people want back their lands👌
I come from Zimbabwe and I tell you that it is a hell hole out there I actually ran away from that country and I beg south Africans to not go the same root due to anger.
so you racist blacks kick out the productive white people, then spread your failures and laziness around to the surrounding countries
Genius Noble You lier you not from there you trying to play black
Genius Noble your the reason why Africa is not developing, your fellow are struggling their after they achieve you will return your big mouth wanting an inheritance
Zimbabwe or African leaders did not understanding what to do for themselves they like or African's like to be in slave in their own country.its like to gave your wife to an other man to be pregnant
@@philpottkentucky4802 not like you think this is the whites who come with the bible in this the whites who did not hear what the blacks asked to not take their land.
Well said Andile
Am in USA. GIVE THEM BACK THEIR LAND.... "Full stop"
Thank you ❤
Do you also think America should be returned to the natives? When are you emigrating?
Why did this show end?
They are trying to go full Zimbabwe.... Never go full Zimbabwe
TinTin Smythe if this is what must be ,so be it.
TinTin Smythe
Nothing wrong with Zim. They did the right thing, we know who brought down Zim.
TinTin Smythe ... white pple stole the land from the black . Now what’s wrong about getting our land back
Lady in red is a true African with golden heart.
The Art of being objective. The white man makes a lot of sense. You can see in his eyes that he wants to remain in SA. But you can tell by the same eyes that he’s hurt by the fact that he is in a war where in order to survive, someone must die. And he doesn’t want to die. He wishes white people never did what they did, but hopes that the black man will not mirror that history. As sad as the situation is, it’s emotionally artistic in the brush of race relations. We do not need to murder white people. We need to talk, admit, agree, apologize, amend, and forgive.
Victor O. Udora: I am an elderly black America. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Too, my concern with the taking and redistributing the farmland, that it "will" be as the white African stated... "The West and other European countries will side with white Africans staging economic shut down creating hardship for all South Africans. It is one thing to speak of "enduring hardship" when you are fed and strong, but when you must go without food due to lack of equiptment and other resources to cultivate and maintain the land and crops, as was being explained by the country's representative, "new landowners will need government assistance," that strength will dwindle as even more will experience poverty.
The youth it seems are pushing for immediate action, and the elders are supporting the irrational desire for immediate action out of fear of their youths, rather than help them to use foresight when leaping without looking. Although, the youth have a point as this decision has lingered far too long, appearing no real consideration or political action being taken to resolve the issue.
My prayers be for South African for a resolve satisfactory to all its ppl.
Hey, 5 year on (21/03/18) Hows it going?
long live mugabe
Brian, you are a jackass. LONG LIVE THE RIGHT HONOURABLE IAN DOUGLAS SMITH!
trailduster6bt where is that shit ian d smith . now. huh huh where the fuck is he. DEAD. where ? IN SOUTH AFRICA. so go fucck urself
Tell Mugabe that we Italians are going to learn from him and start pushing out blacks, so get ready to pull out the race card and accuse us Italians of being racists, but it won't work
Brian Ted long live...
@@trailduster6bt
More fire pon ian smith. More fire pon botha. More fire pon Cecil rhodes. I and I a trample apathied. Apartheid huh weh...nuh matter where sen run sen can't hide. Well get them all one day. Long live selassie i. Long live mugabe. Long live Michel manley. Long live fidel. Long live Hugo chavez.
Land should be taken by force no freedom without land
If you dont have agricultural experience in farming...then why should you get a farm?
+jozilife the land goes back to its owner and the experienced white farmer can work as an employee for the black land owner, very easy.
The blacks was owned the land before Jan come into cape from Holland
This brotha on point and he speaking facts y'all better listen to that brotha im african American and telling african people to take what he say seriously he speak the truth
These people have no idea what they are saying or talking about. It’s all emotion and even though it will make these things much worse they don’t care because they are angry and isn’t know any better. These people don’t even understand basic economics. The only way you can’t compete with competitors and sell your products is if you can compete with the price. When all these other country’s in Africa have cheaper labor and can produce and sell their product at cheaper rates that means South Africa can’t compete or sell their product for the price they need to keep the business alive. You can’t just double to triple your cost of doing business and think everything will be ok. The biggest expense in any business is payroll/ staff.
Kevin Odom
There you go talking about facts. Liberals only care about feelings, common sense is not that common among South Africans.
Kevin Odom actually you don't understand economics, labour and land comes first
Kahuma Solomon
No, freedom comes first, everything else is a distant second.
Slavery ad infinitum Nada.
It seems to me that the problem is resolved by putting a minimum wage to labour and pay people, who can't find a job, a decent amount of money to survive. Taking land away and give that to people who do not have a clue is the best way to destroy what is still left.
the presenter sounds very intelligent. more goose to your elbow
21.50 he knows what is taking about 'the decline of the Zimbabwean economy didn't came land reform programme'
Amandla Andile I salute you,you are great leader
it was sanctions that caused poverty in zimbabwe!
Mugabe's Dictatorship did. The Soviet Union propped up Zimbabwe. Communism doesn't work.