What a breath of fresh air your videos are. So many videos on this subject are by people who keep saying it's complicated but then they don't demonstrate a lot of knowledge of the subject. Good to have it explained reasonably thoroughly.
NH3 >> NO2 >>NO3>> And then, I didn't quite get it ..... I'm remembering high school chemistry class, haha. I have not delved into this for about 20 years, but the slow flow denitrification does work, as you said.... I built a "spiral tube" filter for a marine tank. Surely enough the water coming out was nitrate free, but the flow was so slow (ie, about 2-3 drops per second), it was ineffective on the 300 litre system. I like your ideas, and science. Subscribed, and will be looking more back (past) through your videos. Thanks for the detail! :)
What a fantastic series! I am using a deep sand bed and plants (actually slow growing plants but I plan to add some faster growing stem plants soon) and I can't get any nitrate readings. I do a 25% water change weekly right now. I'm going to see what happens if I just top-off. ...I'll do a water change if my NO3 goes above 10 but I'd like to see how long I can go....
Any updates on your tank? How much sand do you have? What kind of "sand" are you using? How large is your tank? What is the stock? I am very interested in knowing thanks for your time.
Is 10 ppm scary? Or is 50 ppm where it might get scary? People who want to sell test kits....and filtration products will say 10 every time. The ponds and lakes where these fish come from don't have any of that. Top of with distilled or R.O. so parameters remain the same (regardless of testing) Nothing but pure water leaves the tank. The minerals are bound up in the plants which release them back for others use during the decay process. If one has to supplement certain plants with minerals to keep them happy they simply have too many of that kind of plant. Plants compete too and getting their ratios right is another key. Good luck
Jay, I want to thank you!!! You are the first person that I have come across, who explains in English (layman's terms) the complete process. This is what I have been trying to accomplish. I have African cichlids, many tanks. I use sumps, refugiums, even aquaponics, but still have off the chart NO3, without doing water changes. You have answered so many questions for me. I knew in my mind that this was possible, an ecosystem. Just had to many missing links. Asked others questions, got a few answers, but mostly got, that won't work, you have to do water changes, refugiums are for saltwater. I have even built a bridge system in one room that connects 3 aquariums together, 4 inch's in diameter (so the fish can swim from one tank to the other), I did this to increase the volume of water. Larger volume, more stability. I could go on forever. I won't bore you. I just want to thank you, and shout, HA! I knew it could be done!!! Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!! You rock my friend! Eternally grateful, Cindy
Huge bio loads make all kinds of external bs necessary. Keep that in mind. Less fish and you can have no filtration AND no water changes. Just use R.O. or distilled for top offs or you shoot yourself in the foot. Hardness builds up quickly in aquariums.
It would be smart to put undgravel plates (or any type of plenum) under substrate which will create the needed anoxic wo going full anaerobic at the bottom. It will allow the water to fully pass through the entire layer instead of hitting the bottom glass and going nowhere and losing all oxygen. Heterotrophs can live in .25-1 dissolved oxygen. Undergravel is imop the best way as you can retain the uplift tubes and use airstones as very little airflow to help pull water though if you do endup with full anaerobic instead of anoxic, thus allowing you to fine tune the flow. Using any clay based substrate is best as the crystals help attract the molecules due to negative ion charge as well as the iron content helps promote bacterial growth similar to how it does with plant growth.
Seems like having two filters would be a good option. We don't want to neglect the aerobic process which does well with high flow. But if we have second filter with very slow flow that could build up anaerobic filtration it will work for Nitrates. I wouldn't feel good about slowing it down and risking insufficient aerobic filtration.
Great video, thank you. I do have a deep substrate and it does form nitrogen bubbles. When I set it up, I put a matrix of PVC pipes with holes and an outlet in case I want to suck some dead water out from underneath. Now I'm thinking about put a little suction there to cause some flow through the substrate. Any thoughts? Also the clay gravel that you showed is also used by some here in US and I was going to add to my tank or filter, but I wasn't sure if it'll hurt my fish since it's used for gardening. There are biomedia that act the same way but cost a lot more, Seachem Matrix and BioHome being a couple of options. After watching your video, I think if you pack a canister filter, and use a taller canister one, you may reach a higher denitrification.
Hi Jay--thanks for these great lessons. I would like to try the deep substrate method of denitrification for a saltwater aquarium. Do you think it would work?
So when I accidentally overfilled the substrate in our 75g I unwittingly created an ideal situation. Nice. And now I know the bubbles that come from it are nitrogen and not mysterious swamp gas.
Great video! Can you incorporate this dual aerobic and anoxic conditions still in a deep substrate by incorporating an under gravel filter? Same question but having a plenum only instead of UGF? Does this replicate similar to your turtle tank with a deep substrate but adjacent to open water (similar to space below UGF?). Also if you are opposed to either, why? I ask because I would like to add a filter to a deep substrate tank but prefer not to use canister, HOB or sponge filter.
hi good day! your videos wereso good. can you please make a videos regarding to ph levels? what are the factors of increasing and dercreasing ph levels in outdoor or indoor and also what to to do to sustain a ph level. thank you
Wouldn't a canister filter create anoxic zones? Water goes in at the rated speed but the sponge filter pad paired with a fine filter pad would slow it down flow rate. After the filter pads would be the media baskets zones. Would you say that the media zones are in anoxic condition?
Hi. I have a question. If you use a liquid carbon source like excel it will work too? And thanks for the video I think it is the most clear explanation that i have seen so far.
Dude, you're awesome for explaining how is works. But in practice, what size should my low flow anoxic filter be for a 100l tank ? You said something like 20 liter filter that scared the heck out of me in the previous videos.
Hi Jay. Thanks for the interesting series of videos. I watched you videos last year and am re-watching them as I would like to try out the carbon dosing to kick start the denitrification in my anoxic filter which I have set up using baked clay media. 1)What would be the quantity of sugar to add to the filter? 2) Is it necessary to dose daily or can I dose every 2 or 3 days to avoid a bacterial bloom & or ammonia spike? It is an established tank and I have other filters running so ammonia & nitrites are zero at the moment. Nitrates are around 40 to 50ppm. 3) Does carbon dosing require a protein skimmer as done by marine aquarists? 4) Once the heterotrophic facultative anaerobes are established do we still need to continue carbon dosing or will the bacteria manage to get the carbon from the fish poop & waste food?
Hello Jay I just discovered your video upon searching for Anoxic filtration and I would love to try your method for my future aquarium tanks. My only concern is the food carbn food source. Does liquid Carbon works as a food sorce?
But a slow flow means a slow rate to clean out the nitrates so the filter volume would have to be large. How large is needed then? Also with a deep substrate, aren’t there other concerns with poisonous trapped gases that you could release by disturbing the substrate?
Good videos. You should take a look at Kevin Novak’s TH-cam channel and take a look at his iBook call Anoxic Filtration System. He uses the 3rd method you go over in this video with apparently some success. He is using crushed clay (kitty litter) and laterite (iron rich clay) in simple pond baskets in sumps/ bog filter areas. He says no carbon source is needed either. Apparently he has had success with this for many years. I am testing 3 of his baskets in my sump now. If you take a look at his content, let me know what you think. I will post a video if I have any success.
Jay, have you made any videos breaking down anoxic filtration using baskets and plenums? He does a terrible job explain stuff on his channel you are much better at teaching.
Badandy538 yeah, I had zero success with the kitty litter baskets. They are fine for nitrification, but no significant denitrification was detected. Novak’s videos have no scientific backing or merit. All hype. The only thing I’ve found to significantly reduce nitrates is a heap ton of plants.
Badandy538 so I’ve tried seachem matrix, biohome, algae scrubbers, miracle mud, the kitty litter baskets, wood chip beds, and no significant denitrification or nitrate removal for any of those. The algae scrubber was just too small. They work, but you have to have very large surface areas for growth, and it was a pain in the butt to clean every 2 weeks. So if you listen to “the masked aquarist” podcast, he tried aquaripure and it didn’t work. I know one other aquarist that aquaripure didn’t work for them either. deep sand beds did work for the masked aquarist for a several months (when adding sugar as a carbon source) before it drastically crashed. The system I have now works pretty good, but you need a large sump to grow lots of plants . Here is the video instagram.com/tv/B0tKGldnYff/?igshid=2uaofyvsbn88 Or get a drip system if you’re not concerned about your water bill. That is probably the easiest way once you get a sump and connect it to a drain.
How would you setup an eheim canister filter that has the input from the bottom and output is at top? How would you also setup the media inside? I could adjust the flow with the valves supplied. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Rommel R you've bonused if your inlet is at the bottom already you have less oxygen going in I'd have course sponge at the bottom then floss then media of your choice that should make your filter at least 75% anoxic
I just saw that hyuga stones are made from clam shells. What else can you recommend for someone who works with fish who thrive in acidic water conditions? Also, when slowing down water flow and creating conditions where oxygen is depleted in the filter, will the water that goes back into the tank be oxygen poor?
Hi Jay, You have really thrown me here with the carbon food, I have never heard this before. I have read that with standard nitrogen cycle bacteria that you have to keep your carbonate hardness up in the water column by adding baking soda otherwise the bacteria will die. But feeding the anoxic bacteria with vodka, I have never heard before! Is it possible that in my setup, I am using BCB baskets, with cat litter and iron rich plant substrate, that the bacteria are eating something in that? Thanks so much for helping with our understanding of this.
Thanks Jay, I found a scientific research paper tonight saying that non soluble Humin ( organic part of soil) enhanced the denitrification abilities of the Pseudomonas stutzeri. So I am going to see if I can get this and test it against the performance of a standard BCB. I will let you know how it goes
thanks for the gold category education. what if i do this : say there are 4 trays for the bio media. the first two trays i fill with suitable bio media as u use, but keep it loose. Not dense. for the flow / oxygen. the 3rd tray (part of it) I add a Carbon foam (dont know whether this will provide the carbon for the bacteria). the rest of the 3rd tray and and the 4th tray, i fill with full compaction the bio media. shouldnt this provide a good amount of anoxic condition hence facilitating De-nitrification ? Kindly guide and oblige. thanks again
What percentage of a tanks filtration should be aerobic and which should be anaerobic? is there an answer? or do u just keep adding some of each until u have a stable no water change tank system.?
I am searching guide to solve anoxic/anaerobic substrate, because my plant roots is rooting and smells horrible, but found how to do anoxic condition.. I am confuse... 😵😵
The substrate do release bubble, but i cannot smell it that bad. But, plants roots turn black and smelly. Wood hardscape part that burried in substrate blackened and smell like sewer. I do walstad method, using soil and sand to cap it.
I was looking for a comment like this. I want to set up a filterless deep substrate tank but I've heard that anaerobic conditions would cause H2S to form and that is toxic and smells bad...
Hello, thanks for the thorough explanation! One question though, since oxygen won΄t be able to reach the anoxic zone (in an >10cm substrate), how will NO3 be able to?
@@hrishar Just in case Jay's reply isn't exactly clear, think of it like a Balloon. When you first breath in (the top of the Substrate) its all O2. When you blow that air into the Balloon it contains a mix of O2 that you didn't use the first time, and CO2. This is as if the water has traveled through the first part of the Substrate. If you keep breathing the air back from the ballloon, and back into the Balloon, the O2 level will drop, and the CO2 level will rise. Eventually it will reach a point where the Balloon only contains CO2. And as Jay said, at this point a human will just die if they keep breathing from the Balloon. This is what's happening in your Substrate. At the top the Bacteria eat NH3 and (then latter NO2), and breath O2, and then breath out NO2, (and then later NO3). But as Bacteria keep doing this, they use up the O2 gas. All that is left as you reach the bottom of the Substrate is the waste product from the original Bacteria. Some Bacteria however can convert consume Carbon and breath NO3, to create N2 and CO2.
@@Peregrine1989 thank you for the clarification! My question had more to do with the molecule sizes and the substrate’s resistance during the movement of O2, NO2, NO3. So, what I understand from your post is that it is not so much about the O2 and NOx reaching the bottom, but about their rate of depletion and replenishment. (English is a foreign language to me, I hope I chose the terms correctly) Ok, two more questions regarding anoxic filtration: a) Sponge filters tend to clog over time, so people will periodically take them out, squeeze a little and put them back in the tank. If we were to let a sponge filter as is, it would have a lower flow, so would it help with denitrification? What size should it be in relation to tank volume? The tank I have in mind is a 10litre with lots of floating Salvinia, some Taiwan moss and a sponge filter. Stocked with neocaridinas that are breeding. b) When choosing to go the deep substrate route, does it matter if we use dirt below the gravel? It would provide nutrients for plants according to D.Walstad and FatherFish, so would that affect the necessary substrate depth? Thanks in advance!
Can a fluidized sand bed have anoxic zones or is the flow too great? In other words, if I build an oversized fluizied bed filter that barely stays fluidized, will it perform both functions?
Questions. With low flow filters like the coil denitrifiers, is it more space efficient than deep substrate filtering? As for the carbon source for the deep substrate filters, like vodka and sugar, can't you use fish food or a layer of topsoil as the food? With the bio media, following the principle of wicking water, would driftwood also cause anoxic conditions within? Oh and lava rocks also wick water more or less depending on pore sizes. What percentage of alcohol does your vodka have?
1. The efficincy will depend on how you build it. In any case coil denitrifiers are terrible in my opinion because they are expensive and complicated. 2. Fish food is why you dont HAVE to dose carbon. Its just that dosing could help. not sure what you mean by top soil 3. drift wood or lavarock could do that. depending on the characteristics and size. 4. I don't dose vodka. or anything. I just mention it to explain how denitrification works.
Hello thank you very much for this information. Can I use lava rocks as biological media is it ok to achieve full cycle? Do they effect water parameters Ph / GH Because I have discus fish and water parameters is important factor. Thanks
I'm considering to use clay pebbles. Besides the pores within that are anoxic zones, are the pebbles going to help with ions? As in the anoxic zone which is -ve charged will attract the +ve charged water which will help to pull in ammonia/nitrite/nitrates faster
use a normal external filter and a 4 in deep sand substrate been doing it for years but i still do water changes at least one a week its the only proper way to reduce nitrates i seen fish breeding in high nitrates up to 400 ppm my nitrates read under 5 ppm. there is no substitute for fresh water changes been keeping fish for 45+ years nitrates have never been a problem in all them years
thank you for great explanation but i have question about the coil denitrator i make my research of how they make it and there are a lot who diy it but i can not understand the needs of spiral tube ? that go spiral inside large diameter tube . they say it is for slow down the water flow !!! but what if i add straight direct tube and valve and i can make the water flow run very slow what is the needs of that spiral tube ? in your video you say the bacteria will colonies inside that small diameter tube ! how we can sure that there is a bacteria there and not in the output or in the tank i mean the bacteria colonies in rough surface not in water . is that spiral tube is special tube designed so the bacteria can colonies there ? and dose that mean who make it as diy and they use a normal small diameter tube will not work with them ?
ngc charle I'll answer your question it's like with electricity a coil is used so a certain amount of power can go through it but it's reduced by time it gets to the end with the spiral the water is a constant stream so on there's more volume going through And two there's more surface area for the bacteria for denitrifying to do there job the longer the tube the better but as said stupidly unnecessary if you had a small tube and a valve it would be pointless
bacteria can colonize any surface. They are not free floating, they stick to the inner surface of the airline tubing. That is the concept of the coil denitrifier. The tubing is coiled because you need several meteres of tubing for it to work and it would be messy otherwise
Hi Jay, if there any benefit if my substrate is like 36" thick in a 200liter drum vs 4" to 6" substrate? can it remove 5x to 9x more than the 4" to 6" substrate?
another question please usually when we make water cycle we do it 4-6 times per hour for the whole tank now if i want to use the denitrification filter what is the water flow rate will be i have 450 liter tank about 120 gallon with water flow 2500 liter per hour ?
its Zdan The 20 liter is used as an example. You need to find a filter that is small RELATIVE to your tank. So, if you have a 20 gallon tank, use a filter that is meant for a 10 gallon tank.
If I slow down the flow on my ehiem 4+ 250 to the lowest setting and N2 starts to be created, would the N2 be dissolved in water and evaporate outside the filter or build up as a gas in the filter, eventually causing the filter to run dry if enough gas is in there?
Anoxic type filter here. Iam trying for months to achieve denitrification to no avail. I have few questions to you and id be glad if you could help me out. You say that the flow has to be low, but how low? Do I need to add a carbon source necessarily? Isnt there any carbon source from the leftovers (food, poop) etc.? Thank you in advence
no simple answer to how slow is slow enough. depends on shape of filter, filter media, filter configuration and initial oxygenation level of water going in. supplemental carbon is not necessary, but can help
BettaJanggut 75 the oxygen will go down in deep substrate filtering because the water cannot flow very well down there. So, whatever oxygen will be used by the bacteria, until it is depleted. Towards the lowest part of the substrate, the water is stagnant. There will be no gas exchange, and therefore no added oxygen.
@@Jaysaquarium so what is the difference on your anoxic filtration using sand/gravel compared to Dr. Kevin Novak anoxic filtration using cat litter and laterite?
The media Biohome allows both nitrifying (aerobic) and denitrifying (anaerobic) bacteria to grow on and through its unique structure allegedly just Like your Korean clay
Hola. En México se esta haciendo esta cama profunda desde el sump. Te comparto el enlace. Muchas gracias por tus excelentes videos. ¿Tendrás videos donde lo que aquí explicas se vea de forma ya aplicada? Saludos desde Guadalajara, Jalisco, México. Un abrazo fraterno. th-cam.com/video/LXuehEwcAAY/w-d-xo.html
Jay, I recently discovered your work on TH-cam concerning nitrate removal and management. I thank you for such great explanation.
What a breath of fresh air your videos are. So many videos on this subject are by people who keep saying it's complicated but then they don't demonstrate a lot of knowledge of the subject. Good to have it explained reasonably thoroughly.
NH3 >> NO2 >>NO3>> And then, I didn't quite get it ..... I'm remembering high school chemistry class, haha.
I have not delved into this for about 20 years, but the slow flow denitrification does work, as you said.... I built a "spiral tube" filter for a marine tank. Surely enough the water coming out was nitrate free, but the flow was so slow (ie, about 2-3 drops per second), it was ineffective on the 300 litre system.
I like your ideas, and science.
Subscribed, and will be looking more back (past) through your videos.
Thanks for the detail! :)
What a fantastic series! I am using a deep sand bed and plants (actually slow growing plants but I plan to add some faster growing stem plants soon) and I can't get any nitrate readings. I do a 25% water change weekly right now. I'm going to see what happens if I just top-off. ...I'll do a water change if my NO3 goes above 10 but I'd like to see how long I can go....
Any updates on your tank? How much sand do you have? What kind of "sand" are you using? How large is your tank? What is the stock? I am very interested in knowing thanks for your time.
Is 10 ppm scary? Or is 50 ppm where it might get scary? People who want to sell test kits....and filtration products will say 10 every time. The ponds and lakes where these fish come from don't have any of that. Top of with distilled or R.O. so parameters remain the same (regardless of testing) Nothing but pure water leaves the tank. The minerals are bound up in the plants which release them back for others use during the decay process. If one has to supplement certain plants with minerals to keep them happy they simply have too many of that kind of plant. Plants compete too and getting their ratios right is another key. Good luck
Jay, you are missed. At least I do. Come on, do another video, you're gold man.
Jay, I want to thank you!!!
You are the first person that I have come across, who explains in English (layman's terms) the complete process. This is what I have been trying to accomplish. I have African cichlids, many tanks. I use sumps, refugiums, even aquaponics, but still have off the chart NO3, without doing water changes. You have answered so many questions for me. I knew in my mind that this was possible, an ecosystem. Just had to many missing links. Asked others questions, got a few answers, but mostly got, that won't work, you have to do water changes, refugiums are for saltwater. I have even built a bridge system in one room that connects 3 aquariums together, 4 inch's in diameter (so the fish can swim from one tank to the other), I did this to increase the volume of water. Larger volume, more stability.
I could go on forever.
I won't bore you.
I just want to thank you, and shout, HA! I knew it could be done!!!
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!
You rock my friend!
Eternally grateful,
Cindy
Congratulations
But Cindy - you do know that high nitrate levels are fine - they are not even toxic at 1000 ppm. Plus this old video was fake news.
Do you live in Maryland? Someone is selling a custom tank like that near my house haha
Huge bio loads make all kinds of external bs necessary. Keep that in mind. Less fish and you can have no filtration AND no water changes. Just use R.O. or distilled for top offs or you shoot yourself in the foot. Hardness builds up quickly in aquariums.
how did this go in the end?
It would be smart to put undgravel plates (or any type of plenum) under substrate which will create the needed anoxic wo going full anaerobic at the bottom. It will allow the water to fully pass through the entire layer instead of hitting the bottom glass and going nowhere and losing all oxygen. Heterotrophs can live in .25-1 dissolved oxygen. Undergravel is imop the best way as you can retain the uplift tubes and use airstones as very little airflow to help pull water though if you do endup with full anaerobic instead of anoxic, thus allowing you to fine tune the flow. Using any clay based substrate is best as the crystals help attract the molecules due to negative ion charge as well as the iron content helps promote bacterial growth similar to how it does with plant growth.
Dr.Novak, right? Makes sense but downside is you can’t use plenums with deep sand beds or dirt.
@@Badandy538 You're incorrect. Check out Kevin Novaks latest videos.
@@Badandy538 I have an UGF with sand. It works fine. I just put a filter pad on top of the filter plates.
Hi, Dr Kovak does not mention feeding the bacteria with Carbon ???
@@Badandy538 You can!
Excellently explained 👌
Great explanation Jay. Thank you so much.
Love this info for some of us simpletons, but would like it if the questions were answered.
I now understand why Juwel Bioflow has such design with "2 flows" and why it is quite good at its job.
NH3 >>NO2>>NO3>>N2....... Excellent
....Go ahead,,,,,,👍👏👏👏
Great work. From now on I'm gonna link this series to anyone that will ask me about filtration and/or nitrogen cycle.
Thanks Jay, truly enlightening
Seems like having two filters would be a good option. We don't want to neglect the aerobic process which does well with high flow. But if we have second filter with very slow flow that could build up anaerobic filtration it will work for Nitrates. I wouldn't feel good about slowing it down and risking insufficient aerobic filtration.
Great video, thank you. I do have a deep substrate and it does form nitrogen bubbles. When I set it up, I put a matrix of PVC pipes with holes and an outlet in case I want to suck some dead water out from underneath. Now I'm thinking about put a little suction there to cause some flow through the substrate. Any thoughts? Also the clay gravel that you showed is also used by some here in US and I was going to add to my tank or filter, but I wasn't sure if it'll hurt my fish since it's used for gardening. There are biomedia that act the same way but cost a lot more, Seachem Matrix and BioHome being a couple of options. After watching your video, I think if you pack a canister filter, and use a taller canister one, you may reach a higher denitrification.
Awesome explanations.
I think this is fantastic. Thank you-
Hi Jay--thanks for these great lessons. I would like to try the deep substrate method of denitrification for a saltwater aquarium. Do you think it would work?
yes
Water change, sure is strange.
Dont be phobic, when it comes to anaerobic.
Wow that's some great information👍👍
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed!
Thanks a ton jay. Can you make video on substrate quality and size like kind of stones we can use . Many thanks in advance
Great video, Thanks :)
If i use sugar for Carbon dosing, How much sugar should I add and how often ?
Very interesting
So when I accidentally overfilled the substrate in our 75g I unwittingly created an ideal situation. Nice. And now I know the bubbles that come from it are nitrogen and not mysterious swamp gas.
Great video! Can you incorporate this dual aerobic and anoxic conditions still in a deep substrate by incorporating an under gravel filter? Same question but having a plenum only instead of UGF? Does this replicate similar to your turtle tank with a deep substrate but adjacent to open water (similar to space below UGF?). Also if you are opposed to either, why? I ask because I would like to add a filter to a deep substrate tank but prefer not to use canister, HOB or sponge filter.
hi good day! your videos wereso good. can you please make a videos regarding to ph levels? what are the factors of increasing and dercreasing ph levels in outdoor or indoor and also what to to do to sustain a ph level. thank you
Great video! Would you say that normal pumice could also work instead of hyuga stone?
Fantastic idea. Do you have any recommend about the design of an Anoxic filter? Thank you.
What are the stones called?
Wouldn't a canister filter create anoxic zones? Water goes in at the rated speed but the sponge filter pad paired with a fine filter pad would slow it down flow rate. After the filter pads would be the media baskets zones. Would you say that the media zones are in anoxic condition?
Hi. I have a question. If you use a liquid carbon source like excel it will work too? And thanks for the video I think it is the most clear explanation that i have seen so far.
Nope. Has to be something bacteria can eat.
very interesting video, would zeolite work as well instead of baked clay?
anything that provides a surface for bacteria to colonize should work in theory. I'm not familiar with zeolite so can't say for certain.
Whoop can't wait to watch this!
Thanks I'll upload some more tomorrow!
Or a passive stand alone large pond basket in the aquarium with porous media. Most of the internal media will be anoxic
Dude, you're awesome for explaining how is works. But in practice, what size should my low flow anoxic filter be for a 100l tank ? You said something like 20 liter filter that scared the heck out of me in the previous videos.
Can we use zeolites or very small lava rocks play a similar role as the orchid growing media ?
You mention that you don't dose carbon, what exactly do you do for the carbon source?
Yes
Hi Jay. Thanks for the interesting series of videos. I watched you videos last year and am re-watching them as I would like to try out the carbon dosing to kick start the denitrification in my anoxic filter which I have set up using baked clay media.
1)What would be the quantity of sugar to add to the filter?
2) Is it necessary to dose daily or can I dose every 2 or 3 days to avoid a bacterial bloom & or ammonia spike? It is an established tank and I have other filters running so ammonia & nitrites are zero at the moment. Nitrates are around 40 to 50ppm.
3) Does carbon dosing require a protein skimmer as done by marine aquarists?
4) Once the heterotrophic facultative anaerobes are established do we still need to continue carbon dosing or will the bacteria manage to get the carbon from the fish poop & waste food?
I havent found carbon dosing to be necessary. It helps but is redundant in most cases.
Hello Jay I just discovered your video upon searching for Anoxic filtration and I would love to try your method for my future aquarium tanks. My only concern is the food carbn food source. Does liquid Carbon works as a food sorce?
Thanks
Thank you Jay for your videos. If you are using deep substrate, What about cyanobacteria? it coul be a problema with that deep substrate
would lava rock work?
But a slow flow means a slow rate to clean out the nitrates so the filter volume would have to be large. How large is needed then? Also with a deep substrate, aren’t there other concerns with poisonous trapped gases that you could release by disturbing the substrate?
Is lava rock an good media for get rid of nitrate. Thanks for good explanations
Yes
Good videos. You should take a look at Kevin Novak’s TH-cam channel and take a look at his iBook call Anoxic Filtration System. He uses the 3rd method you go over in this video with apparently some success. He is using crushed clay (kitty litter) and laterite (iron rich clay) in simple pond baskets in sumps/ bog filter areas. He says no carbon source is needed either. Apparently he has had success with this for many years. I am testing 3 of his baskets in my sump now. If you take a look at his content, let me know what you think. I will post a video if I have any success.
Jay, have you made any videos breaking down anoxic filtration using baskets and plenums? He does a terrible job explain stuff on his channel you are much better at teaching.
Badandy538 yeah, I had zero success with the kitty litter baskets. They are fine for nitrification, but no significant denitrification was detected. Novak’s videos have no scientific backing or merit. All hype. The only thing I’ve found to significantly reduce nitrates is a heap ton of plants.
Eric K So no luck with deep sand beds either?
Badandy538 so I’ve tried seachem matrix, biohome, algae scrubbers, miracle mud, the kitty litter baskets, wood chip beds, and no significant denitrification or nitrate removal for any of those. The algae scrubber was just too small. They work, but you have to have very large surface areas for growth, and it was a pain in the butt to clean every 2 weeks. So if you listen to “the masked aquarist” podcast, he tried aquaripure and it didn’t work. I know one other aquarist that aquaripure didn’t work for them either. deep sand beds did work for the masked aquarist for a several months (when adding sugar as a carbon source) before it drastically crashed. The system I have now works pretty good, but you need a large sump to grow lots of plants . Here is the video instagram.com/tv/B0tKGldnYff/?igshid=2uaofyvsbn88
Or get a drip system if you’re not concerned about your water bill. That is probably the easiest way once you get a sump and connect it to a drain.
Eric K thank you so much for sharing.
Is there a need to clean the substrate for anoxic filter setup?
How would you setup an eheim canister filter that has the input from the bottom and output is at top? How would you also setup the media inside? I could adjust the flow with the valves supplied. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Rommel R you've bonused if your inlet is at the bottom already you have less oxygen going in I'd have course sponge at the bottom then floss then media of your choice that should make your filter at least 75% anoxic
So how do the fish breath if there is very little oxygen going back into the tank.
U must increase earation in the fish tank or use oxygen generator
So you're saying that sumps are not anoxic due to flow rate and the open top?
Depends on how you make it
I just saw that hyuga stones are made from clam shells. What else can you recommend for someone who works with fish who thrive in acidic water conditions? Also, when slowing down water flow and creating conditions where oxygen is depleted in the filter, will the water that goes back into the tank be oxygen poor?
Hi Jay,
You have really thrown me here with the carbon food, I have never heard this before.
I have read that with standard nitrogen cycle bacteria that you have to keep your carbonate hardness up in the water column by adding baking soda otherwise the bacteria will die. But feeding the anoxic bacteria with vodka, I have never heard before!
Is it possible that in my setup, I am using BCB baskets, with cat litter and iron rich plant substrate, that the bacteria are eating something in that?
Thanks so much for helping with our understanding of this.
The fish food you add can also feed the bacteria. Vodka or sugar dosing is just adding extra food amd can help in certain situations
Thanks Jay,
I found a scientific research paper tonight saying that non soluble Humin ( organic part of soil) enhanced the denitrification abilities of the Pseudomonas stutzeri. So I am going to see if I can get this and test it against the performance of a standard BCB.
I will let you know how it goes
you can benefit from anoxic as well by doin BCB baskets/bags with high flow around them ... not inside them
thanks for the gold category education. what if i do this : say there are 4 trays for the bio media. the first two trays i fill with suitable bio media as u use, but keep it loose. Not dense. for the flow / oxygen. the 3rd tray (part of it) I add a Carbon foam (dont know whether this will provide the carbon for the bacteria). the rest of the 3rd tray and and the 4th tray, i fill with full compaction the bio media. shouldnt this provide a good amount of anoxic condition hence facilitating De-nitrification ? Kindly guide and oblige. thanks again
probably yes. carbon form will not provide carbon source. the fish food will
What percentage of a tanks filtration should be aerobic and which should be anaerobic? is there an answer? or do u just keep adding some of each until u have a stable no water change tank system.?
There is no clear answer for that.
Question ⁉️⁉️⁉️⁉️
For the denitrification part ....can i add as a source of carbon ...inorganic carbon like grafite or charcoal?
The step 1 he's saying to create low flow with large filter , but HOW? why cant he show us with example...someone pls help?
I am searching guide to solve anoxic/anaerobic substrate, because my plant roots is rooting and smells horrible, but found how to do anoxic condition.. I am confuse... 😵😵
If you dig up deep substrate on purpose it will smell bad even if it is set up properly. can you be more specific?
The substrate do release bubble, but i cannot smell it that bad. But, plants roots turn black and smelly. Wood hardscape part that burried in substrate blackened and smell like sewer. I do walstad method, using soil and sand to cap it.
I was looking for a comment like this. I want to set up a filterless deep substrate tank but I've heard that anaerobic conditions would cause H2S to form and that is toxic and smells bad...
Hello, thanks for the thorough explanation! One question though, since oxygen won΄t be able to reach the anoxic zone (in an >10cm substrate), how will NO3 be able to?
Oxygen is used up no3 is not
@@Jaysaquarium ok, so if NO3 is not reaching the anoxic zone how does the substrate help turn NO3 in N2?
No3 reaches substrate
@@hrishar Just in case Jay's reply isn't exactly clear, think of it like a Balloon. When you first breath in (the top of the Substrate) its all O2. When you blow that air into the Balloon it contains a mix of O2 that you didn't use the first time, and CO2. This is as if the water has traveled through the first part of the Substrate. If you keep breathing the air back from the ballloon, and back into the Balloon, the O2 level will drop, and the CO2 level will rise. Eventually it will reach a point where the Balloon only contains CO2. And as Jay said, at this point a human will just die if they keep breathing from the Balloon.
This is what's happening in your Substrate. At the top the Bacteria eat NH3 and (then latter NO2), and breath O2, and then breath out NO2, (and then later NO3). But as Bacteria keep doing this, they use up the O2 gas. All that is left as you reach the bottom of the Substrate is the waste product from the original Bacteria. Some Bacteria however can convert consume Carbon and breath NO3, to create N2 and CO2.
@@Peregrine1989 thank you for the clarification! My question had more to do with the molecule sizes and the substrate’s resistance during the movement of O2, NO2, NO3. So, what I understand from your post is that it is not so much about the O2 and NOx reaching the bottom, but about their rate of depletion and replenishment. (English is a foreign language to me, I hope I chose the terms correctly)
Ok, two more questions regarding anoxic filtration:
a) Sponge filters tend to clog over time, so people will periodically take them out, squeeze a little and put them back in the tank. If we were to let a sponge filter as is, it would have a lower flow, so would it help with denitrification? What size should it be in relation to tank volume? The tank I have in mind is a 10litre with lots of floating Salvinia, some Taiwan moss and a sponge filter. Stocked with neocaridinas that are breeding.
b) When choosing to go the deep substrate route, does it matter if we use dirt below the gravel? It would provide nutrients for plants according to D.Walstad and FatherFish, so would that affect the necessary substrate depth?
Thanks in advance!
How long did your deep substrate/sand tank to cycle?
Some ppl say that the gas build under substrate and kills shrimp and fish, is that posible?
What is the name of the baked clay graunles? Hyuga stones?
So what are those stones called? And are the similar to kitty litter or Akadama?
Can a fluidized sand bed have anoxic zones or is the flow too great? In other words, if I build an oversized fluizied bed filter that barely stays fluidized, will it perform both functions?
Questions.
With low flow filters like the coil denitrifiers, is it more space efficient than deep substrate filtering?
As for the carbon source for the deep substrate filters, like vodka and sugar, can't you use fish food or a layer of topsoil as the food?
With the bio media, following the principle of wicking water, would driftwood also cause anoxic conditions within? Oh and lava rocks also wick water more or less depending on pore sizes.
What percentage of alcohol does your vodka have?
1. The efficincy will depend on how you build it. In any case coil denitrifiers are terrible in my opinion because they are expensive and complicated.
2. Fish food is why you dont HAVE to dose carbon. Its just that dosing could help. not sure what you mean by top soil
3. drift wood or lavarock could do that. depending on the characteristics and size.
4. I don't dose vodka. or anything. I just mention it to explain how denitrification works.
Hello thank you very much for this information.
Can I use lava rocks as biological media is it ok to achieve full cycle?
Do they effect water parameters Ph / GH
Because I have discus fish and water parameters is important factor.
Thanks
I'm considering to use clay pebbles. Besides the pores within that are anoxic zones, are the pebbles going to help with ions? As in the anoxic zone which is -ve charged will attract the +ve charged water which will help to pull in ammonia/nitrite/nitrates faster
Texhnically yes but it wont last. Eventually any charged surface will become saturated.
same idea here. am trying to see if i can create this zone within materials in the substrate? Hard clay is what I will try.
use a normal external filter and a 4 in deep sand substrate been doing it for years but i still do water changes at least one a week its the only proper way to reduce nitrates i seen fish breeding in high nitrates up to 400 ppm
my nitrates read under 5 ppm. there is no substitute for fresh water changes been keeping fish for 45+ years nitrates have never been a problem in all them years
Andy & amandas art dogs & V logs there totally is a substitute for waterchanges. Watch my other videos.
plz tell me how i use carbon dose
Can carbon dioxide be used for carbon dosing?
What about if i have a undergravel filter in my tank?
So if you have a reactor you should be good right?
thank you for great explanation but i have question about the coil denitrator i make my research of how they make it and there are a lot who diy it but i can not understand the needs of spiral tube ? that go spiral inside large diameter tube . they say it is for slow down the water flow !!! but what if i add straight direct tube and valve and i can make the water flow run very slow what is the needs of that spiral tube ? in your video you say the bacteria will colonies inside that small diameter tube ! how we can sure that there is a bacteria there and not in the output or in the tank i mean the bacteria colonies in rough surface not in water . is that spiral tube is special tube designed so the bacteria can colonies there ? and dose that mean who make it as diy and they use a normal small diameter tube will not work with them ?
ngc charle I'll answer your question it's like with electricity a coil is used so a certain amount of power can go through it but it's reduced by time it gets to the end with the spiral the water is a constant stream so on there's more volume going through And two there's more surface area for the bacteria for denitrifying to do there job the longer the tube the better but as said stupidly unnecessary if you had a small tube and a valve it would be pointless
bacteria can colonize any surface. They are not free floating, they stick to the inner surface of the airline tubing. That is the concept of the coil denitrifier. The tubing is coiled because you need several meteres of tubing for it to work and it would be messy otherwise
Or add a lot of plants
Hey Jay I stopped at 11:21 I was thinking of crushed terra cotta pots? What do you thing?
yes should work fine
Can we use ceramic rings as anoxic media? And even burying them in the garvel for this purpose?
yes
What would be the ideal size of a grain of sand? 1-2mm or 2-3mm?
Would need to experiment, but I believe the difference would be insignificant in a hobbyist setting.
Hi Jay, if there any benefit if my substrate is like 36" thick in a 200liter drum vs 4" to 6" substrate? can it remove 5x to 9x more than the 4" to 6" substrate?
I bet it's better by far.
another question please usually when we make water cycle we do it 4-6 times per hour for the whole tank now if i want to use the denitrification filter what is the water flow rate will be i have 450 liter tank about 120 gallon with water flow 2500 liter per hour ?
Its not about the tank. Its about your filter compartment. Slow flow in a large filter compartment will ensure anoxic conditions
I do the coil I get a pump into my refugiumthen I pumping back into the tank with a pump that has a 12 foot cord spun into a spirial
hi, i cant find any filter with 20 liter capacity, what is the minimum capacity to make this work?
its Zdan The 20 liter is used as an example. You need to find a filter that is small RELATIVE to your tank. So, if you have a 20 gallon tank, use a filter that is meant for a 10 gallon tank.
Question for #2 deep substrate. If I make use of under gravel filter does it means that I wont get anoxic zone?
Oxygen will kill the anaerobic bacteria
the type of filter
deep substrate
Is it compulsory to have 10cm thick substrate in planted tank to create anoxic condition?
5cm apears to be the absolute minimum.
@@Jaysaquarium thx, my tank is small, so it has only 6cm substrate.
If I slow down the flow on my ehiem 4+ 250 to the lowest setting and N2 starts to be created, would the N2 be dissolved in water and evaporate outside the filter or build up as a gas in the filter, eventually causing the filter to run dry if enough gas is in there?
Not sure never tried it with a canister filter.
@@Jaysaquarium which would be the best filters to try this on in your opinion then?
Anoxic type filter here. Iam trying for months to achieve denitrification to no avail.
I have few questions to you and id be glad if you could help me out.
You say that the flow has to be low, but how low?
Do I need to add a carbon source necessarily? Isnt there any carbon source from the leftovers (food, poop) etc.?
Thank you in advence
Carbon, as in dose vodka into the filter with a dripper. 2 drips an hour will work.
no simple answer to how slow is slow enough. depends on shape of filter, filter media, filter configuration and initial oxygenation level of water going in. supplemental carbon is not necessary, but can help
Is Clay brick bake clay?
Why the oxygen go down in the 2nd method?
BettaJanggut 75 the oxygen will go down in deep substrate filtering because the water cannot flow very well down there. So, whatever oxygen will be used by the bacteria, until it is depleted.
Towards the lowest part of the substrate, the water is stagnant. There will be no gas exchange, and therefore no added oxygen.
In area where I live guys have been using broken clay bricks as a media for as long as I can remember
Hi,
The deeper the substrate the better? Is 20 inches deep substrate good?
4inches is sufficient. I assume you would get diminishing returns the deeper you get
@@Jaysaquarium so what is the difference on your anoxic filtration using sand/gravel compared to Dr. Kevin Novak anoxic filtration using cat litter and laterite?
Marvin Gwapo the difference is that this is for fish ma’am
How to do water change with gravel area with method 2
Will denitrifying bacteria die from poking the gravel
Will injecting CO2 provide "carbon food?"
no
Novak explains this too
The media Biohome allows both nitrifying (aerobic) and denitrifying (anaerobic) bacteria to grow on and through its unique structure allegedly just Like your Korean clay
what about nitrite ?????
nitirite is eliminated by nitrification.
th-cam.com/video/ByyxSw1wEwA/w-d-xo.html
can i have a slow flow filter and my standed filter together
Also, isn't the nitrogen gas poisonous?
the air you breathe is 79% nitrogen..... you'll be fine....-__-
no
Hola. En México se esta haciendo esta cama profunda desde el sump. Te comparto el enlace. Muchas gracias por tus excelentes videos. ¿Tendrás videos donde lo que aquí explicas se vea de forma ya aplicada? Saludos desde Guadalajara, Jalisco, México. Un abrazo fraterno. th-cam.com/video/LXuehEwcAAY/w-d-xo.html
wtf this is how pizza dough is proofed......it all coNNECTS MANNN