I'm an ex-JW of 45 years, excellent presentation. Yes, the roadblock you will hit when presenting this to witnesses is that they will cite Proverbs 4:18 which says that the path of the righteous gets brighter until the day is firmly established. Unless they start questioning things on their own, it's extremely difficult to wake them up. As a side point, they (Rutherford) also predicted Armageddon in 1941 (see WT 1941 9/15 p288).
Hi. I'm not a JW, but I have interest in hearing people's stories of how they left. Could you share a little of how you left? I am guessing that some of your story has to do with what you wrote about "questioning things on their own", yes?
@jamesritter5078 Hi. Sure, I'll share a Cliff's notes version of how I eventually freed myself. I was baptized at 16, not born in, my family began to study when I was 12. I had always believed that God led us to the witnesses, even though I always felt something was off about them. The main thing that bothered me the entire time was that I never observed the love among them that the Bible spoke about, and that really came to the surface when I was disfellowshipped in 2018 after having gone to the elders with sinful conduct that I had stopped doing in order to have a fresh start. Witnesses are told they need to confess to a committee of 3 elders who will then decide if you're repentant. They decided I wasn't so they disfellowshipped me, meaning I was completely isolated from friends and family. It took 3 years for them to reinstate me in spite of me going to every meeting during that time. One of the elders told me 2 years in that I should feel fortunate that this was all that happened to me since if Jesus was here, he may have executed me. Once I was reinstated I began to delve into JW history and doctrinal things that I had always wondered about and realized they were liars and wrong on many things. I've been out almost 2 years. As a side point, for the first time in my life I examined the Bible deeply, how the canon was compiled, that no original manuscripts exist today, how the common people did not have access to it for centuries, scribal and translation errors permitted by God who supposedly was protecting it, many of the stories being very similar to those of other ancient people, and concluded that it was not a book from our Creator. I now have a wonderful closeness with my loving Creator and have deep spiritual connection with the Life of my life. I wish you all the best.
@simplifiedlife8607 I'm glad you left but the bible having no original manuscripts doesn't make a difference if the copies can be demonstrated to be reliable. Scribal errors don't invalidate the gospel message of a man rising from the dead and to which no materialistic explanation satisfies. You can look into the church fathers who clearly taught a risen messiah along with the early church. The evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the Christian message and I can talk more about this if you are open.😊
This is what you discover when you actually study scripture and do research. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see why the Watchtower discourages its members to do this very thing.
Great work Seth. I was a baptised J.W for 50 years. Began to wake up in 2020 and gave myself permission to look into the critiques of the organisation, just as I had listened to and read the vast amounts of criticism the Watchtower has levelled at Christendoms religions for over a century. Any honest hearted, objective individual who looks at the history of this organisation in the light of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 can only come to one conclusion. Any other conclusions involve wilful denial of facts and self deception.
Thank you for sharing that with me! I'm very glad to hear you were brave enough to do the hard research and made it out of the Watchtower. Deuteronomy 18 is such a relevant text when it comes to their prophecies. I'm glad you found my channel! Feel free to check out my other JW-related videos
Thank you for sharing that scripture. This video AND the scripture you shared has changed my trajectory of my worship to God and my real hope and faith in Jesus sacrifice even the more so than I've ever had as being raised as one of JWs. I really feel free now🥲. Now I feel free to worship God in such a way as Jesus describes. Thank you both.❤
@davidegral7152 I don't get this... I understand Deut18, but isn't that referring to someone who claims to have received a prophecy from God? Isn't there a fundamental difference between claiming to receive a prophecy and trying to interpret a prophecy that is already recorded in scripture? I get that they were wrong at times, and overly keen to work out times and seasons "that didn't belong to them", but the "false prophet" claim is a stretch.
Thanks again Seth for laying all this out! I pray all will accept this Savior who we will all meet one day. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. Revelation 1:6-7
I’m a born in JW. I was baptized at 16. I finally decided to do my own research at age 25 and have now been away from the faith for 10 years. My parents still practice faithfully. The watchtower organization severely limits what research tools and information are acceptable. Anything going against what watchtower says is considered “apostate lies” and you can get in serious trouble in the congregation if you get caught looking at it
Excellent video. I was a JW for over 30 years, and I left the organisation in 2022. I also have a YT channel, exposing the false teachings of the WT society. This video is excellent for helping JWs to understand what the Bible REALLY teaches. I’m going to use some of the things you say, in a video I’m going to make to help restore the faith of Some of my viewers, who have lost their faith because they have found out the WT are false prophets themselves. I have subscribed to your channel, and will continue to watch your channel. Thank you so much! Marcie Ex JW
It's a good presentation with solid arguments, but don't expect JWs to actually listen. If you point out these facts to them, and they actually hear you, they will not listen. There is such a thing as cognitive disonance, and that's what you'll see when you present these facts and arguments to them. JWs react when you show them the errors of their beliefs exactly as creationists react when you present to them evidence for evolution.
I understand your vibe in your comment. I would say the following. Out of Christlike pity and compassion maybe don’t call everyone who believes their dogma a fool. What you do not realise is it’s a recognised form of hypnosis in use by the leaders. ““Confusion Technique Another theory of hypnosis is that through confusing or keeping the conscious mind busy, you can bypass the critical thinking of the conscious mind and thereby directly influence the subconscious mind” Excerpt From The Everything Self-Hypnosis So you may have noticed that during Covid many, a million I estimate but definitely over 500k confirmed thru some deeper analysis of reports, saw thru it. The spell was hard to keep over them during the lockdown of the world. I woke up or started to stir around 6 months in to 2020. What a beautiful freedom I enjoy now. True Christian’s freedom! I cry for those still under the spell being kept so busy they cannot free some mental attentions to put some critical thinking into gear :( pray for them. Pray for my family. Always be kind. I was a busy hypnotised elder in the Cong thinking I was happy in true faith. People that are truly awake were kind to me as I awakened and initially feeling like a worthless sucker that had wasted his life. Be kind always. Some stirring JW will read these comments. You are not a fool. We are all rooting for you.
This was very helpful. I have been praying for an entering wedge and as a former Seventh Day Adventist, I think I will endeavour to point out the unbiblical date setting of both the SDA and JW religion. Thank you again for such an informative video!
Delving into the History of William Miller and the subsequent cults that arose from it 'inc JW's and SDA' and the Great Disappointment will be quite eye-opening to many if you go down this road.
I am an ex JW. This ACTUAL Christian teaching about the rapture makes so much more sense than the JW teaching. Unfortunately, I don’t think that you will get to have many productive discussions with them. That is the problem with calling it “The Truth”. That means they believe everything else is the lie.
Argument Against 1914: 1. **Historical Error**: The Watchtower claims the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE, but most historians place it at 587 BCE. Using the correct date, the 2,520 years they count would end in 1934, not 1914. 2. **Changing Predictions**: The Watchtower has repeatedly changed its predictions, first claiming Christ's return in 1874, then 1914, followed by 1918, 1925, and 1975-all of which failed to come to pass. 3. **Biblical Teachings on Christ’s Return**: The Bible describes Christ's return as visible and unmistakable (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7, Acts 1:9-11), contradicting the Watchtower's belief in an invisible, spiritual return in 1914. 4. **Contradictions in "New Light"**: The frequent changes in Watchtower doctrine contradict their claim of "new light" being progressive, as their teachings have shifted dramatically over time. 5. **Warnings Against False Prophets**: The Bible warns of false prophets who mislead others with inaccurate predictions (Matthew 24:23-26, 2 Peter 2:1-3), which aligns with the Watchtower's failed predictions about 1914. These points demonstrate that the Watchtower's claim about 1914 is flawed, unreliable, and contradicts both historical evidence and biblical teachings.
Interesting that they believe that war famine and plague is all that proves Jesus has returned. Then what about the current wars, famines and who could forget, Covid? These people need our prayers.
They are talking about the current wars/food shortages/great earthquakes/ pestilences/ increasing of lawlessness... that's the point, Jesus said we would see "all these things", a composite sign, when he began his rule. It all culminates in a great tribulation that will end in the destruction of Satan's entire system at Armageddon. That's the Gospel of the Kingdom that would be preached globally as part of the sign of his "coming". Matt24. Most mock and do what Jesus said they would in verse37-39.
Great video as always love your channel. As for the 607 date....the Cuniform Tablets historically 100% confirm 587 as the correct date Yet another false teaching...looks like the house of cards has already fallen 😊
Well done Seth 👍 I think its important also to note that this dating of Christ's return in 1874 and that Armageddon would most likely occur in 1914 came from Pyramidology which is related to Freemason theology and the great Pyramid of Giza. When these supposed events didn't occur in 1914 a few years after the top executive editor of the Watchtower Corporation ( J Rutherford ) used 1914 in a different way saying that this was the year of Christ taking to heavenly throne and the generation to follow 1914 forward was "This Generation" spoken about by Jesus . To back 1914 Rutherford created a lie that ancient Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE it is well accepted and documented that this occurred in 586 BCE. What becomes a bit of understanding that the top men of the WTS were endeavoured to attract attention to the literature they published in a dishonest unscrupulous way and to further exalt themselves as Jesus's chosen ones (1919) 😳😳😳
Great video Seth. For those that are unaware, In the King James, the root noun παρουσία or parousia is translated as *coming* in 1 Corinthians 16:17., 2 Corinthians 7:6., Philippians 1:26. and 2 Thessalonians 2:8,9. Their New World Translation allows them to simply further their narrative. The logic of your argument would hold true for the root verb προσκυνέω or proskyneō as well, where I know that you are well aware that they translate *worship* into "obeisance" in every instance that it is applicable to Jesus.
@GreggBuckley Hi Greg. Here is the view of a progressive Trinitarian who still believes in the deity of Christ , Israel P. Warren, from his book The Parousia pgs 22/23: "The view we have thus gained of the nature of the Parousia suggests to us also what is meant by Christ's coming. For though, as already remarked, this noun, iXeuac(;^ (coming) is used but once in the N. T. (Acts 52), and that not in reference to his second coming, yet the verb to come {sp-^oum^ rjxco) is very frequently employed in that signification. But we are to remember that this is the coming of a divine heing^ who already possesses omnipresence, and cannot therefore be said to come and go in the same sense as when applied to finite creatures. It is an instance of that anthropomorphism which is every where used in the Scriptures, and without which it would be impossible to form any conception of God or of his acts. That omnipresence, as a personal attribute, belongs to Christ will not be questioned by any who believe in his deity. Even when dwelling among men in his flesh he could say, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Nay, he directly affirmed that at the same moment when he was visibly present, talking with those about him, he was also in heaven. " No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven." John 3 : 13. Much more, then, may it be affirmed that in his glorified state he possesses this prerogative of deity, and can no more come in the sense of a literal approach than he can depart, leaving some portion of the universe emptyof his divine essence. The only conceivable sense, then, in which Christ, in his divine offices of King, Life-giver, and Judge, can come to men, is that of manifestation. God came down on Mt. Sinai when the phenomena of the cloud, the thunder, and the earthquake appeared there which 5 ; manifested his presence. " In Scripture language," says Stuart, " God comes whenever he proceeds to do or execute any purpose of his will in respect to man. But we are never authorized to suppose an actual and visible coming^ except by symbols. God is always and everywhere present, and cannot come and go in the literal sense." Bib. Sac. IX. p. 340-1. See Gen. 11 : Ex. 3 : 8 ; Numb. 12 : 5 ; 22 : 9 ; Ps. 68 : 18 : 7 ; 21 ; Isa. 64 : 3. So says John, " Christ came by water and blood" (1 John 5:6); that is, he was manifested as a Saviour to men by the water and blood which issued from his heart when pierced by the soldier's spear.*"
As you can see, it is not only Jehova's Witnesses who believe that Parousia should be translated as 'presence' rather than 'coming'. SOME Progressive Trinitarians also believe this. Any thoughts on Israel Warren's position?
many Achilles heal like stay alive till 75 or the year 2000 and now it's been over a hundred and 11 years since 1914 so I think they're running out of excuses
Great information to have on hand Seth. However, the question is NOT, "Will JWs do some personal research to find out that every reference you gave is proof, in black and white, that the WT has failed prophecy after prophecy?". No, the question is much more shallow than that. The question that must be asked before ALL other questions..... When will DC cut and paste his retorts from his basement that don't have anything to do with the video al all?
@FrankLee-gq8yc No, he doesn't have a point. DC is a moron and a troll. I love Ehesians also, but DC, and others, don't seem to get it. Ehesians 4:6 doesn't deny the deity of Christ. the MAN,Christ Jesus, is subordinate to the Father in rank and purpose. He is equal to the Father in nature and essence because Yahweh is a triune being; Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in ONE being. Jesus said the Father is IN Him and He IN the Father. That's what makes the verse work. God over all and IN you all, thru Christ. But the "you" Paul is talking about is only born again Christians. JWs straw man the nature of the Godhead. Do you know what that means? It means they have a false definition of the Godhead, and attack it. It means JWs bring up scriptures they believe supports their case. But it never does because they are arguing against something Christians don't believe.
Really well done video. I’m an ex-JW, born in, and left it 30 years ago. I’m an atheist and don’t have a dog in this race anymore, but am always impressed by a thorough deconstruction of the 1914 doctrine.
Jehovahs witnesses are very sincere and tenacious people - love them Watchtower theology however- is basically the “short bus” of Christian speculation
Outstanding presentation, thoroughly enjoy ur content. For me, the discovery of 1914 being false w/ no archeological proof was the straw that broke the camel’s back. As a faithful Elder, I had already caught the religion in a revisionist history lie in their Oct. 2021 WT on p. 30 (the avg. JW would have no clue about this), but I simply chopped it up to a mistake, & “old light.” However, it did peek my curiosity to examine my faith further b/c it was such a trivial matter that they weren’t being completely honest about it. Due to personal reasons, I was at a low point, & all I did was simply follow The Branch’s direction of feeding myself spiritual food + prayer. I decided to examine the book of Jeremiah, as he’s championed as someone who was persecuted, but by relying upon Jehovah, he endured. I used the Jeremiah Book we once studied as its companion to get a “deeper” understanding. Boy, oh boy; on pg. 56, the publication expounds on archeological evidence proving Babylon destroyed Jerusalem’s 1st temple in 607 BCE by providing evidence from acclaimed Archeologist & Excavator Eilat Mazar (RIP). There was one problem; I was familiar with her work from college, & not once did she ever say this. In fact, PBS did a special with her in 2008 entitled “The Palace of King David”, & throughout, she repeatedly said her team discovered via various articles that it’s confirmed Babylon destroyed the 1st temple between 587/586 BCE. This broke me. But, the nail was doing the math per David Splane’s admonition during the JW broadcast. WT has deceptively changed the reign dates of Nebuchadnezzar, Evil-Merodach (his successor), Jehoiakim, Jehoiachin, & Zedekiah to fit the 607 BCE timeline. However, there’s one king they couldn’t adjust the date for, Nabonidus b/c he was the last ruling king of The Babylonian empire, & that distort their 70 weeks timeline. If u look up Nabonidus in their Insight Book II, it says he ruled from 556 BCE-539 BCE; this is confirmed by archeological findings. If u keep reading, it says he succeeded Labashi-Marduk. The Insight Book doesn’t give details on him, HOWEVER, if u type his name in their online library, wouldn’t u know there’s a helpful WT article 1/1/1965 pp. 28-30 regarding the length of rule of all the Semite Kings from Nebuchadnezzar-Nabonidus! Now, to the org’s credit, they must’ve realized this error, so they tried to clean this up in their 2/1/1969 WT p. 89, but archeological evidence agreed that Labashi-Marduk was succeeded by Nabonidus. So here’s the math per that 1965 WT going from Nabonidus to Nebuchadnezzar: 539-556 BCE (Nabonidus-17 yrs) 556-556 BCE (L. Marduk- 3-9 mos.) 560-556 BCE (Neriglissar- 4 yrs) 562-560 BCE (Evil-Marduk-2 yrs) 605-562 BCE (Nebuchadnezzar-43 yrs) Per 2 Kings 25:8, it was in Nebuchadnezzar’s 19th yr that the house of God was burned & destroyed. (605 BCE - 19 = 586 BCE) U can get from Nabonidus to Nebuchadnezzar, but if u use WT’s dates, u cannot get from Nebuchadnezzar to Nabonidus. It’s a 20 yr gap. The only reason there’s a discrepancy of 587/586 is due to not knowing exactly how long Labashi-Marduk ruled based upon limited findings. It’s confirmed less than a yr, but it’s between 3 mos - 9 mos. Also, it depends on which calendar is used, as well. Apologize for the long post, but this is still a sensitive subject due to all of us putting our faith in a felonious date, dedicating our lives in servitude believing these men were chosen. Lastly, their empirical evidence is WWI for 1914 as “new light.” One problem; WWI started in the Summer of 1914, & Jesus’ presence didn’t begin until Oct. 1914 (per various articles including a 2014 one). Well that means Satan hadn’t been cast down to earth prior to WWI beginning, so even that is false reasoning.
Good post, my friend. You said you were familiar with the work of Eilat Mazar. Did you study archaeology in college? Are you familiar with Babylonian Tablets BM38462 and VAT4956? BM38462 (=LBAT1420) reports lunar eclipses for the first 29 years of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign. 14 were observed and the others were based on their calculations. Comparing the list of lunar eclipses with NASA’s list, they do NOT match the JW claim that Nebuchadnezzar’s reigned began in 625 BC. However, they match perfectly with Christian and Historian's claim that Nebuchadnezzar's ascension was in 605/4 BC. Nebuchadnezzar arrived at Jerusalem in the 19th year of his reign and then destroyed Jerusalem and the temple (Jer 52:12-13). BM38462 lists 2 eclipses for Nebuchadnezzar’s 17th year, one in the fourth month (our June/July) and one in the tenth month (our December/January). For this tablet to match JW chronology, we must find an eclipse in July 609 BC and January 608 BC. When we look at NASA’s list, they aren’t there. HOWEVER, if Nebuchadnezzar’s 17th year was 589/8 BC as Christians and Historians say, then it does match! This is just one tablet that disproves JW chronology and supports the destruction of Jerusalem in 586/7 BC. See Hermann Hunger, ed., Astronomical Diaries and Related Texts from Babylonia, vol. V: Lunar and Planetary Texts (Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences, 2001), 26-30; 396.
July 28, 1914 Austria-Hungary declares war on Serbia August 1-28, 1914 Germany declares war on Russia, France, and Belgium. Britain declares war on Germany. Austria declares war on Russia. Montenegro declares war on Austria. France declares war on Austria. Britain declares war on Austria. Montenegro declares war on Germany. Japan declares war on Germany. Austria declares war on Belgium. November 5, 1914 Britain and France declare war on the Ottoman Empire. April 6, 1917 The United States declares war on Germany. This is the signs of Jesus' presence. What are the chances the end of the Gentile Times in Daniel's prophecy converge on the same year as Jesus' prophecy? 2,520 years after the crown was removed from king Zedekiah just as the bible indicated. We don't know what month the war in heaven began and how long it lasted. We do know God's kingdom was born in 1914.
Joseph, the Seven Years War was called "the first world war" by Winston Churchill. There were many wars before 1914, so explain a couple things to me: 1. How do you get 2,520 years? 2. King Zedekiah was the king when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 586/7 BC. So if you're counting 2,520 years from Zedekiah then how do you get 1914? 3. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Make sure that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is still to come. For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these things are the beginning of birth pains. (Matt. 24:6-8 NET) If wars are just the beginning of birth pains, then the event (the birth) has not yet happened but still in the future. So explain to me how the war that began in 1914 meant Jesus had come. 4. Why did JWs claim that Jesus presence began in 1874 for years after 1914? If 1914 was so evident, why did your group not recognize it?
@@BasicBiblicalTruth You should know the answers if your claim of being a Jehovah's Witness was true. I have already posted the details on this if you want to look. The bible says it was a 70 year exile not a 50 year exile. The calculation is similar to the prophecy of 70 weeks where a day is a year. The prophecy of 70 weeks points to the year the Messiah appeared the first time. King David said: “Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me.” (Psalm 51:5) David was brought forth with error, and his mother experienced birth pains because of inherited sinfulness. The birth pains in Matt. 24:6-8 is not the birth of God's kingdom. The bad things that happen on the earth is due to Satan being angry knowing he has a short period of time. In Revelation chapter 6 Jesus is the first one riding the white horse and all the problems earth experiences follow him. What do you think is meant by Satan knowing he has a short period of time left? This short period of time is called the “time of the end” in Daniel. (Daniel 12:4) “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book UNTIL THE TIME OF THE END. Many will rove about, and the TRUE KNOWLEDGE WILL BECOME ABUNDANT.” Evidently during Satan's short period of time true knowledge will become abundant. But for who? What religious group has changed their doctrine over more than a century since 1914?
Hold on, Joseph. 1. The 70 year exile began with the first deportation, not when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed. 2. If one day is a year, then 70 years of exile was actually 25,000 years, which means Israel hasn’t returned from their exile in Babylon. (You can’t randomly pick and choose which numbers you want to play with.) 3. You didn’t deal with the fact that Zedekiah wasn’t deposed until 586/7 BC, not 607. Both bygeorgehemayberite and I dealt with the dating issue of the destruction of Jerusalem. 4. You also didn’t deal with the fact that JWs claimed Jesus’ presence began in 1874 long after 1914. 5. Have you never observed a child’s birth, or are you unfamiliar with childbirth? Birth pains proceed the birth. Once the birth happens, the birth pains are over. If wars are the _beginning_ of birth pains, then the main event (the birth) hasn’t happened. My goodness, the depth of JW ignorance is astounding.
One thing I bring up with The Watchtower in Daniel 4 is the seven Years. Who does it refer to? Nebuchadnezzar judgment. From Reading Daniel 4 his evident that applied only to nebuchadnezzar. They lift the number out of contacts, Believing it applies to Israel then they come up with their calculations what puts it in 1914. The long and short of it all the seven years apply only can Nebuchadnezzar's judgment that's all it means
Interesting video! In 1974 I discovered 2 scriptures, helping me not to believe the JV-teaching that all evil people would be removed from the earth. Hosea 6:2 can only be understood correct after reading 2 Peter 3:8 - That Jesus will return after 2000 years = within 2030 - 2033.
My experience of talking with JWs (at their carts) is that they switch off when I'm speaking, that is, they are taught to tune out the ramblings of worldly people who they believe are sent to deceive them and destroy their faith.
So don't approach with the attitude to "disprove" just talk. Natural Conversion is the best way to get to know the true person and get a foot into the door when it comes to tryin to explain and or ask questions.
@@JamesHolmez I'm not trying to "convert" anyone. The organisation has a massive issue worldwide with the handling of child sexual abuse (most JWs have never heard of the Australian Royal Commission) plus an increasing problem with the shunning of children as the recent decision of the Norwegian Government illustrates in removing their status and ending state financial support. I'm sure most JWs I approach are sincere, but are deeply indoctrinated into the practices of the cult. They're happy to talk about the weather or such, but are actually hoping to draw in the vulnerable and the ignorant. They will lie to your face when asked about the shunning policy, for instance. There is an element of deceit which they call "theocratic warfare". It's justifiable to deceive in order to further the interests of the organisation.
I've applied this to JWs, and some of it to other religions as well. To which, I found out that religions have some mixture of inconsistencies, assumptions, misdirections, lies, and some kind of presentation without evidence. If there is one true religion, i have, after studying the Bible, the Quran, the Torah, Buddhism, & a few others, i have not found it.
To get a full picture of how this 1914 doctrine started in the JW religion, you have to go all the way back to the year 1869 when Charles Taze Russell was only 17 years old. In that year, he came across a very strange booklet titled "The Even Tide" which was written in 1823 by a Bible prophecy speculator named John Aquila Brown. In this bizarre book, Brown attempts to convice his small group of followers that Daniel Chapter 4 had TWO (2) prophetic fulfillments. The first fulfillment in Nebuchadnezzar's time, and the second in the early 20th century. Charles Taze Russell plagiarized most of John Aquila Brown's strange mathematical calculations (regarding the length of the Gentile times) to predict that Jesus would arrive in the first week of October 1914. When he didn't arrive, Russell was forced to make modifications, including the claim that Jesus DID arrive, but that he did so "invisibly". And the rest is JW history.
John Aquila Brown's 1823 work, The Even-Tide, introduced the interpretation that the "seven times" mentioned in Daniel 4 symbolized a period of 2,520 years, commencing in 604 B.C.E. and concluding in 1917 C.E. AD1914 This concept influenced subsequent eschatological thinkers, including Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Watch Tower Society. Russell adopted and adjusted this interpretation, calculating the "times of the Gentiles" as a 2,520-year period starting in 606 B.C.E. and ending in 1914 C.E. WIKIPEDIA This framework became central to Russell's teachings on biblical chronology and prophecy.
You mean he recycled the same arguments Adventists had already come up with after the great disappointment of 1844.... It's almost like that time period was a trial run for JW theology.
@theologywithseth I was a JW elder of 20 years until 6 months ago. There is very high pressure from the Governing Body not to research outside WT publications, almost a paranoia about it. I felt guilt and that I was disloyal when I first dared to look at alternative sources. But so glad I did! I really appreciate this channel by the way, detailed and accurate, and with a respectful tone. I feel I can leave Watchtower without losing my faith, and that is a huge deal. I started praying again, and more earnestly.
@Miles_Carditis That makes me very happy to hear. So many people who leave these high-control type groups like the Watchtower often abandon faith in God Himself and part of my goal with these videos is to help people realize that you don't have to do that. God never handcuffed Himself to the Watchtower so you can certainly have one without the other!
Amazing. I love light over dark ministry's channel but his retoric is better for people who already want to leave. While yours are more likely to help jw's to realise the watchtower lies. I'm a former JW baptised as roman catholic last easter. Please pray that my family do the same ❤
I love Light Over Dark! I've learned a lot from him as well. You're right about the rhetoric though lol. So glad you made it out of the Watchtower! I'll be praying for your family
Hi there! I have a couple more videos to make related to JW's, but Lord willing, I should be ready to dive into the LDS world first thing next year! I hope you'll stick around
@@theologywithsethThat is so exciting, looking forward to it so much. I am a former Mormon, so this is a topic I am very excited about. You have done such a great job with the JW videos, covering so many topics with a great approach. There is just so much more with Mormonism. I will be praying for you as you are making those videos.
Excellent video on the JW prophecy about Watchtower false authority! Also they teach Jesus is Michael the Archangel which is absolutely false. Get out of her my people!
Can I give one suggestion? JW often say when Jesus in Matthew 6:9 said: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name" They often say here that Jesus said by "your name" as Jehovah. They say look Christians we consider name Jehovah as holy while we "bad Christians" never use holy name Jehovah or Yahveh. Can you please make a video related to this topic?
The jws have Jesus coming and going so many times it's dizzying. Lol. He came invisibly in 1874, then came as king in 1878 (?), came in 1914, which was meant to be as executioner, at which time worldy rule was supposed to end (It did not) came as the messenger of the covenant in 1918, then he comes again at a future great tribulation. The jws have changed their language on this though. They say that Jesus did not return in 1914 but only that he "turned his attention to the Earth". I read that in the 1993 publication, "JWs. Proclaimers of God's Kingdom". From memory.
Also expect the JW to change Jesus presence to “begin at the start of Armageddon , not in 1914 as we first thought, what a wonderful new light Jehovah has provided for us at this difficult times” Trust me it’s coming , sooner then later
Rutherford still bought a house for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to live in which was supposed to take place in 1935! When the patriarchs did not ressurect to life according to watchtower schedule, Rutherford lived in the very same mansion for the next 15 years 😂😂😂😂
@bryn6000 a living monument to false prophecy, but the watchtower and it's adherents just sweep it under their theological carpet of prophetic failures as if it doesn't exist!
Appreciate the analysis, Seth. Concerns over the timing of Jesus’ return has served as a strength and weakness for Christianity since the start. The JWs are one of many groups to save face by post-hoc repackaging a predicted physical apocalypse as an unfalsifiable event in an undetectable -higher- spiritual plane. 2nd Peter’s 3:8 also explained why Jesus did not return within the lifetime of his followers in the 1st Century as predicted in Matthew 24:34, 10:23, 16:28, 23:35; Luke 21:32; Mark 13:30; 1 John 2:18; etc.
I'm not a Christian, but yes, these are good arguments against JW propaganda. However, they seem to not hear you point out th se facts to them. It's quite frustrating.
It was quite beautiful, art nouveau. My father collected old literature when he joined. When he died in 1988 I burned his collection like so many others. We had no idea about the internet back then. She I first started watching TH-cam Mikey and Kimmy talk about a site that had an amazing collection of the old stuff they don't want you to see. Last I heard they were trying to shut them down. And back then they had pics of satanic looking stuff at bethel
Date changes and what some call “disappointments” will lead to reinterpretations. I’m not a dispensationalist but believe that “Jesus will come again in glory at the end of the age.” Beyond that it is understandable that there is confusion on the subject of the Second Coming. It is complex enough a subject that it is useful to false teachers.
The great day of Jehovah is near.....(Zeph. 1:14) 1914 Generation........ Don't know anything about the over lapping of the generations, but the prophecy of Jesus said that this generation would NOT perish until All the thing Jesus was prophesying about happened. So my question would be, "how long is a generation. To me that would mean how long CAN that generation last. Now let us go back before the flood and read in Genesis 6:3: After that Jehovah said: "My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his (Mans) days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years." Now if the generation that Jesus was speaking of started in 1914 then add 120 years you get 2034. Now we have to believe that Jehovah CAN keep one person (or more) from that generation alive for the 120 years. Moses was allowed to live 120 years, and his brother Aaron lived to be 123. Just a couple of months ago (present time), a woman died that was 119. Now do some thinking......
According to JW teachings, the remnant would have been alive in 1914, even if this were true and they were newborns, they would be 110+ years old! Their teachings also state that they are the last generation, so this means that when the last person who is of the remnant dies, then that is the end times. There is a book that is made available during the large assemblies, but not to everyone - only the governing body and elders can access it, this book has a list of the remnant (supposedly)- if this were true, they would be able to pinpoint the last days - but no one knows this, not angels, not Jesus, only God, the Father.
Thank you. But I think Watchtower teaches that Christ became king in heaven in 1914, meaning for them his unvisible presence. He will return later, fighting the battle of Armageddon after judgring the sheep and the goats. I have never heard any teachings from that Christ has returned on earth. Greetings from Germany.
They do now..... at the time 1914 meant all sorts of things, at one point the date was actually said to be 1915, and then they realised there was no year zero. Russell predicted it would be the coming of armageddon..... the resurrection of the 144,000... the start of the great tribulation etc etc. when none of those things happened, they settled on oh it must have been an invisible presence. Funnily enough, the same thing was said by the Adventists almost 50 years before, after the great disappointment of 1844 when trying to cling to William Millers predictions. Russell had almost zero original ideas but was rather good at recycling old ideas, with modified dates.
I have a question- Why would there be a need for a “sign” of the son of man if all where to see him? In fact what would the point of Matthew 24 be (presented in signs) if this chap is going to be perfectly visible?
If you carefully read Matt 24, the signs, earthquakes, famine, war etc are presented so that people would NOT look to them as a sign of Jesus' 2nd coming . V6 "see to it that you are not alarmed".
Brilliant. And here I was doing all kinds of complicated things and this bloke just nails it with an off the cuff bullseye. What a simply brilliant observation.
@ I do not believe that 1914 marked the sign of the prescience, however the apostles asked a very straightforward question “what will be the “sign” of your prescience? Interesting where you relate the verses in Acts, none of Christ’s opposers were there to witness his ascension and it’s my belief “in the same manner. . I.c only to his followers 👍
Some questions if you are interested in furthering this line of thought. Do you believe that all eyes will not see Jesus because he PHYSICALLY CANNOT be seen? Do you see Jesus retuning as a SRIRITUAL BEING? [ Some may counter that Elijah saw the whole army of heaven when god opened his eyes] Finally, how do you harmonize the expression 'all eyes will see him'? Is this anthropomorphism? Or something else?
@stephenletsnot6195 I also do not belive 1914 means anything. Is is simply a made up date, a continuation of the 7th day Adventist Great Disappointment type of speculative reasoning. Your response "in the same manner" is vague. Firstly, are you willing to comment on whether Christ returns in a physical or spiritual form? And why?
@theologywithseth Seth, respectfully, there is not one Jehovah's Witness anywhere that denies Jesus divinity. He is the image of the invisible God. He is in the form of God. We absolutely know and believe this... But we also know and believe what he said: The Father, Jehovah YHWH is the one True God, the Almighty, the ONLY one we worship. Just as Jesus exclusively worships his Father, so do we. It's not a case of rejecting Christ's divinity, it's simply we obey what he said and worship the one who "made him Lord and Christ". Act2:36 As I said when I spoke to you before my other account was deleted, (frankly) I think you are coming from a good place but would do well to actually sit down and talk with a JW before making these videos.
@@JonnyDoe-k1k When Christians say that JWs deny the divinity of Jesus, we are saying that they deny that he is Jehovah/YHWH. The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is YHWH, the second person of the triune God, who became human to die for sinners. JWs fail to grasp (or refuse to accept) that Jesus has two natures-God and human-and so they use passages that speak about his human nature to claim he isn't YHWH, such as you have done with Acts 2:36. JWs deny the biblical witness about Jesus.
You missed a very important scripture. But how it relates to the subject at hand is not very obvious so it's understandable. It's 2 Peter 3:4, 9. In verse 4 doubters are asking where is this promised presence of Jesus. In verse 9, Peter's response includes the important and very relevant point that the promised presence hasn't come yet because God is patient and desires all to attain to repentance and not be destroyed. Do you see the implication of this statement? When the promised presence begins, there will be no time or opportunity to repent. It will then be too late. In other words, the presence will not start invisibly with life continuing on as normal (relatively speaking). On the contrary, the start of the presence is here being linked with the start of direct divine intervention to destroy the wicked with no further opportunity to repent. Peter's understanding of the presence is very much at odds with JWs understanding which involves the presence starting more than a century ago, affording sinners that much time to still repent. That makes no sense in the context of what 2 Peter 3:9 is clearly implying. There is something else very interesting about 2 Peter 3:4. Peter explicitly mentions in vs 3 that these doubters will be living in "the last days" while asking where is the presence. JWs believe the start of the presence coincides with the start of the last days! If JWs are correct about the start of the presence coinciding with the start of the last days, that would mean these doubters are living _during the presence_ while asking where is the presence! If JWs are correct, what would Peter's best response to these doubters be? It seems rather pertinent and obvious for him to mention that these doubters don't realize the presence has already begun invisibly and these doubters don't have the spiritual insight to realize it. Because per JW doctrine these doubters are living during the presence! But Peter says nothing along these lines! As far as Peter is concerned, these doubters living _during the last days_ are correct in their insinuation that the presence hasn't begun yet! They are only wrong in their insinuation that it will not come. So 2 Peter chapter 3 is completely at odds with JWs' understanding of Christ's presence. Who is wrong here? Is it the inspired writer Peter; or is it the JWs? It has been said before and I think it's worth repeating: everything good and truthful about the JW religion, is not unique to JWs. And everything that is unique to JWs is not truthful and/or good.
That's not what we believe that he already returned in 1914 he started the cleansing of the heavens in that year and and battled with Satan and hurled him to the Earth
Jesus said that only the Father knows the date and hour. Furthermore, when Jesus ascended, the angel said that just as He left, the same way He shall return...not using the Bible as a basis is disobeying the Word of God.
Hi Sèth. JWs now relish that they correctly prophesised Elon Musk, something to do with the statue and the clay feet ... would like to hear an explanation please
Thank you. Jehovah W and Christians are around 0.1% and 30% of the World's population, respectfully. How about the rest of the World who wasn't introduced to Christ? I believe God is a loving God. All moral and caring people are getting to heaven.
What does it mean in Hebrews 9 when it says " seen by those earnestly looking for him" .....JWs will say "you see he will be in the minds of those and only those who earnestly believe in him" ....
Hey Acts 1:6-8 says only Father knows the days and times...plus Jesus's said in Matthew 24:36...only the Father knows.not angels..not the Son( Jesus) And I've reading Bibles...cover to cover...So...Simple. Enjoy your work.(CORINTHIANS 15...1 Thessalonians...2nd Thessalonians). If Christ was ruling now,why is Christianity such a mess now.?) What about the well for cleansing of sin and an abhorrent thing..etc etc
Lots of little errors in this video. That's par for the course, but I'd nonetheless like you to tell us the answer to Jesus' question (Mt 24:45): who is the faithful and discreet slave?
The faithful and discreet slave is a character in a parable Jesus tells, and it refers to any Christian who is properly preparing for Christ's Second Coming. It's not a prophecy of Charles Taze Russell, or the Governing Body of the Watchtower. If you'd like to argue otherwise, you'll need to demonstrate that from the context of Matthew 24.
The jws have believed or been taught various things about this over the last 100+years and they've oscillated between these understandings. It was Jesus, it was Jesus and the consecrated, it was a man (Russel), it was all the anointed remnant. For decades, up until 2012, the faithful and discreet slave was all the anointed remnant. The Insight on the Scriptures volume gave convincing evidence for this conclusion. But, in 2012 this was changed, and the faithful and discreet slave became synonymous with the governing body, a small group of men. The entry in the Insight Volume was removed and replaced with the "new light". It's kind of weird that the faithful and discreet slave, who was allegedly approved and appointed by Jesus in 1918 to provide the right spiritual food, didn't even know who they were. Lol!
@@theologywithseth Thanks for the reply, Seth. The burden of proof is not on me. I asked you a question. Your answer just raises other questions. 1) If the F&DS is "any Christian who...", who are "his household"? 2) If the F&DS is "any Christian who...", in what way can this apply to said Christian: "his lord hath made ruler"? 3) What is the "meat in due season"? I see you got a like for the answer. A bit premature, I suggest. I mean that it's too easy to give a peremptory answer to one of Jesus' greatest riddles and get an instant like. I therefore admit we may BOTH be a little bit wrong. Jesus is smarter than us. The evidence for the Governing Body is a website with FREE access to Bible literature in 1,097 languages ("meat in due season") served by 9 million trained "domestics" uninterruptedly for over 100 years, which is unparalleled in history. To my mind - personally - the faithful bit is that we don't kill people (not like other "Christians" who have killed millions in wars, etc.). You constantly suggest that JWs are not free to express themselves without the Watchtower. Really? Do you think I need the Watchtower to express myself? By the way, can you check your info around timestamp 25'30 in "Jehovah's Witnesses: How Their Beliefs Clash With Christianity" where you claim that "the Watchtower is God's prophetic organization"? That expression, according to my admittedly fallible research, is used only once in JW literature and describes the organization of the "FALSE prophet". The Watchtower is NOT prophetic, although it has done a pretty good job for a group of fallible amateurs (do you want an example?). Let me repeat: JWs are not expert apologists or exegetes. They preach ONLY the immanence - and imminence - of the Kingdom of God. I think about the identity of the F&DS a lot, but somebody saved me from despair and gave me a REAL reason to live and to give by pointing to our Lord and Savior, Jesus, while Jesus ("his lord" in Mt 24:45) points to his Father, Jehovah. I had never liked JWs before then, but that's life... Thanks again.
Hi again @Mk-xw1yj , I think you would benefit tremendously from my video on the Watchtower and prophecies. In that video I document exactly where and how the Watchtower claims to be a prophetic organization on par with the prophet Ezekiel from the Bible. I also show how their prophecies routinely fail to come to pass and how the Biblical test of a prophet in Deuteronomy 18 demonstrates that they are not a true prophet and should therefore not be trusted. On that basis alone, I can confidently tell you they are most certainly *not* the Faithful and Discreet Slave, regardless of how you interpret that parable. I'll leave a link below and would strongly encourage you to watch it. As far as the free website, the longstanding ministry, and even the pacifism, these are all things you can find in various denominations of mainstream Christianity too. They're not unique to the Watchtower, and of course you can't forget, for the first 1800 years of Church History, the Watchtower wasn't doing any ministry whatsoever. I find it hard to believe God would leave Himself without faithful ministers for the better part of two millennia. Anyway, I'll link my prophecy video below and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it! th-cam.com/video/qlGEaOYArsQ/w-d-xo.html
@@theologywithseth Thanks again, Seth. 1) You write: "the Watchtower claims to be a prophetic organization on par with the prophet Ezekiel from the Bible". That's not true. I previously responded to your "prophetic organization" claim (see above). 2) I'll watch the video, but I suspect it's about 18..., 1925, 1975... Yes, I watched it (for the second time). True, it's embarrassing in places. I could respond to your choice of evidence (1971, 1972, 1914 (the very ancient Studies in the Scriptures), 1920, WT 1922 and 1923...). OK, the WT sticks its neck out. What organization do you belong to, Seth? What does it says about that? What have Protestants been doing and saying since 1870? I don't forget the tens of millions who died in wars fought by Protestants of all stripes, including Calvinists (I am very familiar with their history and intolerant mentality - on the whole; not speaking personally). The WT never makes prophecies like the prophets or apostles. (JW definition: "Prophets acted as spokesmen for God, conveying not only predictions but also Jehovah’s teachings, commands, and judgments"). Any JW will tell you that prophecy as a gift ended almost 2000 years ago. Also, remember that Elijah made a gross miscalculation, Nathan erroneously gave David the green light to build the temple, and the apostles naively asked: "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" Big mistakes... The editors of the WT will be judged like everyone else... 3) As for pacifists, we're not, but we don't participate in military action or do guns. Please name one of those "various denominations of mainstream Christianity" that is "pacifist", with a wee bit of evidence if possible. 4) Yes, God and Jesus DID indeed exercise patience "for the first 1800 years of Church History". See Psalm 110:3 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool" and Mt 13:39 "the harvest is the end of the world". Sorry if this is long. If so, just choose any topic. I don't expect you to spend a long time on this. Also, it's your site...
@@BasicBiblicalTruth You don't know? Why are you on this channel? I know where I'm going! How about you? Have you chosen your final destination? Let me know! Maybe Fire and Brimstone would be a good choice for you. It's got to be better than Eternal Punishment. Let me know which option you choose! READ BELOW ↓ Most Christian congregations claim that Jesus is God and will not even acknowledge Jehovah God's name. As a matter of fact, they hate God's name, and they are not going access to Jesus or receive everlasting life. Also, most Christian congregations refuse to comply with Jesus' New Commandments and The Model Prayer. The most important scriptures of all and they are not going to be saved!! Get a Bible that has God's name restored - instead of a false religion Bible that has removed Jehovah God's name 6,828 places. The correct English translation for the word JHWH is Jehovah. All English Bibles say God's name is Jehovah (not Jesus). So the correct English translation for the name JHWH or Yahweh is Jehovah. READ BELOW ↓ Below is a list of options for the wicked. A - Abyss B - Aionios C - Eternal Damnation D - Eternal Punishment E - Fiery Lake of Burning Sulfur F - Fire and Brimstone G - Gehenna H - Grave I - Hades J - Hell K - Inferno L - Limbo M - Lower World N - Pandemonium O - Pit P - Pyr Q - Shoel R - Tararus Their options are wide open, so they should choose carefully. Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Have a nice day!
@@BasicBiblicalTruth Two things you can't get around are taxes and scriptures! Contact Bethel, I don't go to Kingdom halls but very seldom! I know where I'm going! How about you? Have you chosen your final destination? Let me know! Maybe Fire and Brimstone would be a good choice for you. It's got to be better than Eternal Punishment. Let me know which option you choose! READ BELOW ↓ Most Christian congregations claim that Jesus is God and will not even acknowledge Jehovah God's name. As a matter of fact, they hate God's name, and they are not going access to Jesus or receive everlasting life. Also, most Christian congregations refuse to comply with Jesus' New Commandments and The Model Prayer. The most important scriptures of all and they are not going to be saved!! Get a Bible that has God's name restored - instead of a pagan false religion Bible that has removed Jehovah God's name 6,828 places. All English Bibles say God's name is Jehovah (not Jesus). So, the correct English translation for the name JHWH or Yahweh is Jehovah. READ BELOW ↓ Below is a list of options for the wicked. A - Abyss B - Aionios C - Eternal Damnation D - Eternal Punishment E - Fiery Lake of Burning Sulfur F - Fire and Brimstone G - Gehenna H - Grave I - Hades J - Hell K - Inferno L - Limbo M - Lower World N - Pandemonium O - Pit P - Pyr Q - Shoel R - Tararus Their options are wide open, so they should choose carefully. Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Have a nice day!
The idea of a visible return of Jesus seems to me to be thoroughly Negated by Mathew ch. 25 and psalms 2:6 ,where it shows Jesus Instalment as king goes unnoticed.!!
How do any of those verses challenge a visible return of Jesus? And perhaps most importantly, how would you refute all the arguments presented in the video?
The scriptures you quoted about seeing christ at his second coming is all about seeing christ in his glorified state just as the angels spoke to John James and Peter , you will see him in the same manner as he ascended into heaven . So how do we see him coming in the clouds because this cloud is vield . This is why James in James 5 : 8 says to prepare our hearts. It is only at our death do we see our Lord just like Stephen did when he was being stoned by the pharisees. Acts chapter 7 . 1 John is meant to be applied in the same manner . We are first to .eet the Lord in the air / wind as in Matthew chapter 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2 before we enter heaven . Good video but Jesus will not appear physically to the world . Judgment was on Babylon the great/ the Jewish religious system Matthew chapter 12 : 41 , 42 and 45 Matthew 23 . It was for there generation in which all things were accomplished in 70 AD
Your interpretation that Christ’s second coming is solely spiritual and will only be “seen” upon each believer’s death lacks comprehensive scriptural support. The Bible repeatedly describes Christ’s return as a visible, powerful event witnessed by all. For instance, Acts 1:11 states that He will return "in the same way" He ascended, which implies a physical and visible return, rather than a purely spiritual one. The cloud imagery in passages like Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 symbolizes divine majesty, not concealment, and suggests that "coming on the clouds" is a clear, public event. Stephen’s vision in Acts 7, where he sees Christ at God’s right hand, was unique to his martyrdom and does not imply that believers only encounter Christ upon death. Furthermore, the gathering of believers "in the air" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is broadly interpreted as a unifying event at Christ’s return rather than an individual experience at death. Lastly, while Matthew 23 and 24 address judgment on Jerusalem, “Babylon the Great” in Revelation represents a broader corrupt system rather than just the Jewish religious order. These passages, read together, point toward a return of Christ that is visible, powerful, and universally recognized rather than a hidden or solely spiritual event.
@BasicBiblicalTruth The JWs don't believe Jesus has already returned as stated in this video. Rather they believe Jesus officially sat down on kings throne in heaven and began ruling as king from heaven beginning in 1914 after the symbolic band around the tree stump was lifted in Daniels prophecy and the end of the gentle times. (The band on appointing a new king will be lifted at the end of the gentle times). Daniel 4:15. 9:24-27. Luke 21:24. Starting from the destruction of the temple in 607 BCE (the last king Zedekiah sat on the throne) + the seven times=2,520, brings us to 1914. 2,520-1913=607. 607 1/4+1913 3/4 = 1914. -------------- It was Charles Taze Russell and the bible students sometime around the year 1890 who calculated the year of the destruction of the temple and the seven times, and the removal of the symbolic band around the stump would indicate that Jesus would officially be crowned as king in heaven in 1914, and he will come with the angels and destroy this wicked world, at the end of the gentle times which ended in 1914. They thought Jesus was coming and chaos will engulf the earth. Apparently Jesus didn't come instead he only arrived in his glory (as king) in heaven according to Matthew 25:31. But the first world war did break out in 1914 and chaos soon engulf the earth. -------------- Modern day JWs believe that when Jesus sat down on the throne or was appointed king in heaven war soon broke out in heaven between Michael and his angels & Satan and and his demons, and the first world war broke out on the earth as well in 1914. -------------- This belief of 1914 doesn't rest on the whole belief system of the JWs. The JWs don't teach that you must accept this in order to be saved. Just because the guy in the video doesn't understand the end of the gentile times in regards to bible chronology doesn't mean the JWs are wrong. This is one of the main reasons I do not post videos calling someone else's doctrine wrong, especially if I don't understand it.
JWs originally claimed that Jerusalem was destroyed in 606 BC, it wasn't till long after 1914 that they changed the date to 607 BC. They taught long after 1914 that Jesus' "presence" began in 1874, that he was crowned king in 1878, and that 1914 would be the physical return of Jesus. JWs taught 1874 for years after 1914. In 1922, they said, “WE HAVE no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925.”[1] Hmmm. As for Daniel, go read the context. Who is the verse speaking about in 4:15? Nebuchadnezzar. Dan 9:27-27 is speaking about the Messiah's coming and death (i.e., when Jesus died in 30 AD). So, where do they get 2520 years? [1] Watchtower 1922 May 15 p.147
@BasicBiblicalTruth 606 or 607 is close enough in my opinion because he's trying to find tune his discovery, archeologists believe the temple was destroyed in 586 or 587, I don't see you criticizing those two different years for the temple destruction although that's only 50 yrs not 70. As far 1874, 1925, 1918, those were considered important years as Mr. Russell puts it. He believed certain events would take place before, during and after the primary date of 1914. You're making a video about Russell's beliefs and you don't know what you're talking about. Hummmm. Maybe you should not believe everything you read on Google. Again, you're wrong, the JWs do not believe Jesus came as your video suggest. I'm a critical biblical scholar, I make it a point to research religious beliefs instead of making assumptions like you did in this video. As far as Russell coming up with 1914 is interesting to me because no one during that time understood nor figured out how to calculate the end of the gentile times using Rev 12: 6, 14 and how to apply the 'Seven times'. Whatever God gave Russell to understand is beyond your comprehension, that's why you criticize what you don't understand, that's typical. Me on the other hand understand how he came up with 1914, and it looks sound on paper to me so far.
@BasicBiblicalTruth 606 or 607 is no more different than archeologists believing the temple was destroyed in 586 or 587. However, that's only 50 yrs not 70 yrs. I don't see you criticizing them for two different years. 😂. ------ "They taught long before 1914 that Jesus 'presence' begin in 1878, that he was crowned king in 1878 and then in 1914 the physical return."........... 1. Russell and Barbour (not the JWs organization) issued a book called 'Three worlds, and the harvest of this world'. They claimed Christ will invisibly return in 1874 and resurrect the Saints in 1875, and the end of the harvest and the rapture of the saints by 1878, and the final end will be 1914. Totally different than what you said. ------------- 1914 is what I'm primarily focused on, the rest to me is theology just like the concept of the Trinity. Whether you like it or not he got 1914 partially correct, and the JWs organization today has fine tuned 1914, and I can agree with that because the numbers add up. 1.Naboplassar (Nebuchadnezzar's father) ruled from 626 BC - 605 BC 2. Nebuchadnezzar ruled from 605 - 562 BC. 3. In the 19th year of both kings we get: 626 - 19 = 607 BC 605 - 19 = 586/587 BC 4. 607 BC is in the secession of Babylonian kings timeline, it's obvious to me that the Babylonian Chronicles is not without error. ----------- Although Russell was not perfect in his initial theology, he was close enough to figure that 1914 is accurate according Bible chronology.
You are right to criticise the Watchtower for their doctrine regarding the year 1914. Their constant attempts to explain this obviously false teaching has now reached ridiculous proportions. However, in saying that the second coming of Christ will be in a physical sense, you are mistaken. Nowhere in scripture do we find evidence for this, quite the opposite in fact. In 2 Thessalonians 1:7, the apostle Paul writes: “And to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels.” If Jesus is to return to earth in the flesh, why would the scripture say that he will be accompanied by his mighty angels? Also consider what was seen in vision and recorded by the apostle John in Revelation 19:11-16, it says there: 11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords Please don't exchange one false doctrine with another
@knockeyecubley3700 I am also curious about your reasoning here. I don't see how Christ's coming with angels says anything about whether or not he's visible. If anything, I would think the language in 2 Thessalonians 1:7 of Christ being "revealed" would suggest the exact opposite- he was hidden at first, and now he's being revealed, i.e. *seen visibly* . Tell me what I'm missing, friend!
The argument contains several logical errors: 1. **Non Sequitur**: The presence of angels doesn’t logically exclude a physical return of Jesus. 2. **Selective Interpretation**: Ignoring verses like Acts 1:11, which implies a physical return, creates a biased view. 3. **Symbolic Language Misinterpretation**: Using Revelation’s symbolism to deny a physical return conflates metaphor with literal impossibility. 4. **Argument from Silence**: Assuming that a lack of explicit mention means something won’t happen is flawed reasoning. 5. **False Dichotomy**: Assuming only two options-Watchtower doctrine or a non-physical return-ignores other perspectives. 6. **Overgeneralization**: Basing conclusions on selective verses without considering the full scriptural context leads to an incomplete view.
I’m the book of Zechariah 14, verse 3-5 talks about The Lord coming down on the mount of Olives. The same place where he ascend. It mention’s that the Lord will come with all his Holy ones. Where else do we read that? Jude 1:14 The Lord coming with countless Holy ones, also Revelation 19:14 which you stated already. But I think the point is that Jesus has a body that he appeared to his disciples on and off before his ascension to heaven. Don’t you think he will return with the same Glorified Body?
God is going to destroy all of mainstream Christianity. For teaching lies and for false worship. Only Jehovah's witnesses teach the truth that God's purpose is for those who come out of the great tribulation are those who inherit the earth. Jesus christ says; The meek will inherit the earth. And Jesus taught his followers to pray saying let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Only 144000 who are Jesus's spirit anointed brothers are those who rule with him in heaven. We are his spirit begotten brothers and we are co-heirs with Jesus Christ and as Jehovah gave Jesus life in himself which is immortality Jehovah also gives we who are Jesus's co-heirs Jehovah also gives us immortality which means we have life in ourselves. We are indestructible and immortal. No other Christian religion teaches these basic truths. Jehovah's witnesses know the truth about paradise earth. And the condition of the dead. The dead are awaiting the ressurection to the earth. Only we who have the firstfruits of the Spirit are part of the first ressurection. Jehovahs witnesses teach the truth about pagan holiday's and that Jesus is not God that he is God's only begotten son. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. John calls him the only begotten God meaning he is the only one who Jehovah God created directly with his own hands everything after Jesus was created through Jesus and for Jesus.
I normally limit myself to one or two threads on any one video. However, I have come across a line of reasoning that may interest those who believe that Christ will return "in the same manner " that he departed the earth. Israel P. Warren reasons: "As he went up " a cloud received him," and that was all. But is that the way he is to come again? -that the fulfillment of the sublime language in which his return is elsewhere set forth, " in the glory of his Father," " with his mighty angels," the " flaming fire," " the voice of the archangel and the trump of God? " Insist upon it that exact " identity of form and manner " is meant, and you place this text in irreconcilable contradiction with every other which describes the ineffable majesty of his appearing." From The Parousia pg.65
Jehovah knows, but I suggest to read, what is stated of Jesus Christ in Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 19) “But again, those who assert that He was simply a mere man, begotten by Joseph, remaining in the bondage of the old disobedience, are in a state of death having been not as yet joined to the Word of God the Father, nor receiving liberty through the Son, as He does Himself declare: "If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." John 8:36 But, being ignorant of Him who from the Virgin is Emmanuel, they are deprived of His gift, which is eternal life; Romans 6:23 and not receiving the incorruptible Word, they remain in mortal flesh, and are debtors to death, not obtaining the antidote of life. To whom the Word says, mentioning His own gift of grace: "I said, You are all the sons of the Highest, and gods; but you shall die like men." He speaks undoubtedly these words to those who have not received the gift of adoption, but who despise the incarnation of the pure generation of the Word of God, defraud human nature of promotion into God, and prove themselves ungrateful to the Word of God, who became flesh for them.”
1914 was the year that Jehovah throw Satan an his followers to the earth. And had know way back to the heavens because Jehovah took there wings away. And Jehovah gave Satan the earth to rule . Tell him gather up as meany soul you can because you a short period of time left.
Sorry, but that isn't found in the Bible. 1914 is a failed prophecy by your founder and first pope, CT Russell. Show me from the Bible where you got this and we can look at the context of the verses you use. Context is a killer for JW.
Seth asserts at the 19:30 timestamp that Christ's return will be a visible , bodily one. Over a 100 years ago this notion was already being rejected . Israel P. Warren writes : "The expression [in like manner /gr. hon tropon] occurs elsewhere in the New Testament four times, viz. Matt. 23 : 37; Luke 13 : 34 ; Acts T : 28 ; 2 Tim. 3 : 8. The first two instances may be regarded as identical. " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, -how often would I have gathered thy children together even as -hon tropon - a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, but ye would not ! " Now I submit to my readers whether our Saviour meant to say that he had longed to gather the wayward people of Jerusalem under his sheltering care, in an " identity of mode or manner " with that in which a hen broods over her chickens. Surely not. Undoubtedly more is meant than the simple certainty of the act ; it implies equal tenderness and faithfulness, but it does not imply an exact resemblance in the form of it. The next passage occurs in Stephen's rehearsal of the scene between Mosesand the Egyptianin the desert. " Wilt thou kill me as -hon tropon -thou didst the Egyptian yesterday?" Here again I ask, was the mind of the inquirer fixed on the mode of the apprehended killing, or on its certainty as a fact ? Was he solicitous to know whether it was to be done with staff or dagger,and the body buried in the sand, or simply whether it was to be done, without reference to manner ? The latter, most certainly. The force of the comparison rests in the anticipated repetition of the act, not its identity of form." From The Parousia pgs. 62/63
I think we should trust God's angels before trusting Israel P. Warren and they told us Jesus would return "in the same way" as we "saw him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11). A visible departure = a visible return.
This bloke Israel P Warren, wrote things before the Motor Vehicle was being made. Can you get some scholarship that is more recent. Quoting a man who used a Horse and Buggy for his mode of transport who had never dreamed of owning a Motor Vehicle is a sign of desperation. Christianity has many many scholars of recent times who have the latest up to date research on these matters. My mode of transport doesn't defecate in front of me as I travel along the road. Seriously. Get some modern scholarship. Not his Horse and Buggy style research.
@theologywithseth Respectfully, it is better that you did not say anything than embarrass yourself like this. Israel Warren quoted FOUR instances where the expression "in like manner" [ greek hon tropon] is used where it DOES NOT DESCRIBE the manner or way something was done as to be repeated. Words do not function exactly in all languages. You are just dogmatically applying a fundamentalist interpretation with no regard for how hon tropon is used idiomatically in greek. Refusing to engage even ONE example that Israel Warren cited and analysed in depth. This is disappointing. I am sure that the Christian community expects a higher level of engagement and analysis than this.
@@universalman5861 I, as a member of the Christian Community agree with Seth. You have quoted 1 man who's no A T Robertson. If you're honest, why don't you quote the hundreds and hundreds of Greek Scholars (who have an up to date knowledge of Koine Greek) instead you quote 1 single man out of hundreds of Koine Greek Scholars who got his education in the Horse and Buggy days. This is not current scholarship. Please list 10 Greek Scholars (who are current living scholars of Koine Greek) who agree with you. Picking the Lone Ranger or Robinson Crusoe is showing your Dogmatism, Seth is drawing from 2000 years of Christian Scholars and relies on up to date scholarship for his views. BTW please verify this Lone Ranger of yours from the Horse and Buggy era even is peer reviewed as a Koine Greek Scholar. BTW again, this chap looks like he was a Trinitarian. Do you adhere to ALL of his other beliefs or are you just Cherry picking ?????
@@universalman5861 I've done some more digging. This bloke Israel Warren is not a Greek Scholar. He was a DD in the USA, that's a Honorary Degree, not a real degree. This is your expert ?????????? He was qualified as a Pastor, not a Koine Greek Scholar Here is an extract showing how he was unaware of current Koine Greek Research Regarding the word Parousia "The point is that, according to Deissmann, the technical sense embodies both an arrival and a subsequent presence, with emphasis on "arrival." This is in contrast with what Israel Warren wrote in 1879. Of course, the discoveries that Deissmann wrote about had not been made in 1879, SO IT IS CLEAR THAT WARREN'S COMMENTS ARE BASED ON INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE OF KOINE GREEK. AFTER ALL, IN 1879 THE PREVAILING WISDOM WAS THAT THE NT WAS WRITTEN IN AN IMAGINARY, SPECIAL "BIBLICAL GREEK." Alan M Feuerbacher 31 Aug 1995 Please try harder and quote current scholarship. A Doctor of Divinity A Honorary Degree, not a real degree.
I believe in God the Father and Christ through whom God made all things. Holy Spirit is God and Christ in action Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. Everyone has their feelings about GOD. I try to keep mine in line with the Bible. When you have God and Christ together, I feel there are Two Holy Spirits together. Christ said My Father is greater than I and He said the Father and I are One. I feel this is they are in agreement between Father and Son. God is outside of this world. If you make an apple pie you're not in the pie; unless you cut your finger off. Can you show me a trinity in John 1:1 John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
You want to see the Trinity in John 1:1? Read it the same way Jesus read Psalm 110:1. The Holy Spirit is a distinct person from the Father and the Son. This is clear from John 14 & 16.
I'm an ex-JW of 45 years, excellent presentation. Yes, the roadblock you will hit when presenting this to witnesses is that they will cite Proverbs 4:18 which says that the path of the righteous gets brighter until the day is firmly established. Unless they start questioning things on their own, it's extremely difficult to wake them up.
As a side point, they (Rutherford) also predicted Armageddon in 1941 (see WT 1941 9/15 p288).
Hi. I'm not a JW, but I have interest in hearing people's stories of how they left. Could you share a little of how you left? I am guessing that some of your story has to do with what you wrote about "questioning things on their own", yes?
@jamesritter5078 Hi. Sure, I'll share a Cliff's notes version of how I eventually freed myself. I was baptized at 16, not born in, my family began to study when I was 12. I had always believed that God led us to the witnesses, even though I always felt something was off about them. The main thing that bothered me the entire time was that I never observed the love among them that the Bible spoke about, and that really came to the surface when I was disfellowshipped in 2018 after having gone to the elders with sinful conduct that I had stopped doing in order to have a fresh start. Witnesses are told they need to confess to a committee of 3 elders who will then decide if you're repentant. They decided I wasn't so they disfellowshipped me, meaning I was completely isolated from friends and family. It took 3 years for them to reinstate me in spite of me going to every meeting during that time. One of the elders told me 2 years in that I should feel fortunate that this was all that happened to me since if Jesus was here, he may have executed me.
Once I was reinstated I began to delve into JW history and doctrinal things that I had always wondered about and realized they were liars and wrong on many things. I've been out almost 2 years. As a side point, for the first time in my life I examined the Bible deeply, how the canon was compiled, that no original manuscripts exist today, how the common people did not have access to it for centuries, scribal and translation errors permitted by God who supposedly was protecting it, many of the stories being very similar to those of other ancient people, and concluded that it was not a book from our Creator. I now have a wonderful closeness with my loving Creator and have deep spiritual connection with the Life of my life. I wish you all the best.
@simplifiedlife8607 I'm glad you left but the bible having no original manuscripts doesn't make a difference if the copies can be demonstrated to be reliable. Scribal errors don't invalidate the gospel message of a man rising from the dead and to which no materialistic explanation satisfies. You can look into the church fathers who clearly taught a risen messiah along with the early church. The evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the Christian message and I can talk more about this if you are open.😊
This was so well done I cant wait to share it with my PIMI family.
So many good points and explanations. Thank you for your hard work.
Thank you for watching! I'll be praying for you and your family
Be careful man, they will cut you off as an apostate
@LTearsmith PIMO (I take it that's what you mean by PIMI?) is the most bizarre of concepts to me.
I couldn't be bothered.
This is what you discover when you actually study scripture and do research. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see why the Watchtower discourages its members to do this very thing.
Indeed, the Watchtower actively discourages independent Bible study and critical thinking. They certainly need our prayers!
Great work Seth. I was a baptised J.W for 50 years. Began to wake up in 2020 and gave myself permission to look into the critiques of the organisation, just as I had listened to and read the vast amounts of criticism the Watchtower has levelled at Christendoms religions for over a century. Any honest hearted, objective individual who looks at the history of this organisation in the light of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 can only come to one conclusion. Any other conclusions involve wilful denial of facts and self deception.
Thank you for sharing that with me! I'm very glad to hear you were brave enough to do the hard research and made it out of the Watchtower. Deuteronomy 18 is such a relevant text when it comes to their prophecies. I'm glad you found my channel! Feel free to check out my other JW-related videos
@@theologywithsethI will, and thanks again
I think COVID help many witnesses to wake up
Thank you for sharing that scripture. This video AND the scripture you shared has changed my trajectory of my worship to God and my real hope and faith in Jesus sacrifice even the more so than I've ever had as being raised as one of JWs. I really feel free now🥲.
Now I feel free to worship God in such a way as Jesus describes. Thank you both.❤
@davidegral7152 I don't get this... I understand Deut18, but isn't that referring to someone who claims to have received a prophecy from God?
Isn't there a fundamental difference between claiming to receive a prophecy and trying to interpret a prophecy that is already recorded in scripture?
I get that they were wrong at times, and overly keen to work out times and seasons "that didn't belong to them", but the "false prophet" claim is a stretch.
Thanks again Seth for laying all this out! I pray all will accept this Savior who we will all meet one day.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. Revelation 1:6-7
Thank you for watching and commenting!
I’m a born in JW. I was baptized at 16. I finally decided to do my own research at age 25 and have now been away from the faith for 10 years. My parents still practice faithfully. The watchtower organization severely limits what research tools and information are acceptable. Anything going against what watchtower says is considered “apostate lies” and you can get in serious trouble in the congregation if you get caught looking at it
I also was in a cult, what did you learn that started you to doubt the watchtower?
Excellent video.
I was a JW for over 30 years, and I left the organisation in 2022.
I also have a YT channel, exposing the false teachings of the WT society.
This video is excellent for helping JWs to understand what the Bible REALLY teaches.
I’m going to use some of the things you say, in a video I’m going to make to help restore the faith of Some of my viewers, who have lost their faith because they have found out the WT are false prophets themselves.
I have subscribed to your channel, and will continue to watch your channel.
Thank you so much!
Marcie Ex JW
Thank you for watching! I'm very glad it was helpful
My guy you broke it down like a fraction. Just subscribed.
It's a good presentation with solid arguments, but don't expect JWs to actually listen. If you point out these facts to them, and they actually hear you, they will not listen. There is such a thing as cognitive disonance, and that's what you'll see when you present these facts and arguments to them.
JWs react when you show them the errors of their beliefs exactly as creationists react when you present to them evidence for evolution.
@jtopdawg6 I'm so glad you enjoyed it! I appreciate the sub!
Very well laid out and referenced! Only a fool would believe the teaching of the Watchtower.
Agreed! Thank you for watching
I understand your vibe in your comment. I would say the following. Out of Christlike pity and compassion maybe don’t call everyone who believes their dogma a fool. What you do not realise is it’s a recognised form of hypnosis in use by the leaders. ““Confusion Technique
Another theory of hypnosis is that through confusing or keeping the conscious mind busy, you can bypass the critical thinking of the conscious mind and thereby directly influence the subconscious mind”
Excerpt From
The Everything Self-Hypnosis
So you may have noticed that during Covid many, a million I estimate but definitely over 500k confirmed thru some deeper analysis of reports, saw thru it. The spell was hard to keep over them during the lockdown of the world. I woke up or started to stir around 6 months in to 2020. What a beautiful freedom I enjoy now. True Christian’s freedom! I cry for those still under the spell being kept so busy they cannot free some mental attentions to put some critical thinking into gear :( pray for them. Pray for my family. Always be kind. I was a busy hypnotised elder in the Cong thinking I was happy in true faith. People that are truly awake were kind to me as I awakened and initially feeling like a worthless sucker that had wasted his life. Be kind always. Some stirring JW will read these comments. You are not a fool. We are all rooting for you.
Excellent breakdown. Very useful for my current discussions with JW. Praise the LORD
I'm so glad it was helpful! I'll be praying for you to have some great conversations with JW's
I love your channel! Thanks for all your hard work, my brother in Christ!
I truly appreciate that, brother! So glad you're enjoying the content. Cheers!
Thanks for sharing Seth, another great video! God bless you❤
Thanks Jennifer! God bless you as well
This was very helpful. I have been praying for an entering wedge and as a former Seventh Day Adventist, I think I will endeavour to point out the unbiblical date setting of both the SDA and JW religion. Thank you again for such an informative video!
I'm so glad you enjoyed it! Thank you for watching and commenting
Delving into the History of William Miller and the subsequent cults that arose from it 'inc JW's and SDA' and the Great Disappointment will be quite eye-opening to many if you go down this road.
I am an ex JW. This ACTUAL Christian teaching about the rapture makes so much more sense than the JW teaching. Unfortunately, I don’t think that you will get to have many productive discussions with them. That is the problem with calling it “The Truth”. That means they believe everything else is the lie.
Argument Against 1914:
1. **Historical Error**: The Watchtower claims the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 BCE, but most historians place it at 587 BCE. Using the correct date, the 2,520 years they count would end in 1934, not 1914.
2. **Changing Predictions**: The Watchtower has repeatedly changed its predictions, first claiming Christ's return in 1874, then 1914, followed by 1918, 1925, and 1975-all of which failed to come to pass.
3. **Biblical Teachings on Christ’s Return**: The Bible describes Christ's return as visible and unmistakable (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7, Acts 1:9-11), contradicting the Watchtower's belief in an invisible, spiritual return in 1914.
4. **Contradictions in "New Light"**: The frequent changes in Watchtower doctrine contradict their claim of "new light" being progressive, as their teachings have shifted dramatically over time.
5. **Warnings Against False Prophets**: The Bible warns of false prophets who mislead others with inaccurate predictions (Matthew 24:23-26, 2 Peter 2:1-3), which aligns with the Watchtower's failed predictions about 1914.
These points demonstrate that the Watchtower's claim about 1914 is flawed, unreliable, and contradicts both historical evidence and biblical teachings.
Interesting that they believe that war famine and plague is all that proves Jesus has returned. Then what about the current wars, famines and who could forget, Covid? These people need our prayers.
They are talking about the current wars/food shortages/great earthquakes/ pestilences/ increasing of lawlessness... that's the point, Jesus said we would see "all these things", a composite sign, when he began his rule.
It all culminates in a great tribulation that will end in the destruction of Satan's entire system at Armageddon.
That's the Gospel of the Kingdom that would be preached globally as part of the sign of his "coming".
Matt24.
Most mock and do what Jesus said they would in verse37-39.
Great video as always love your channel.
As for the 607 date....the Cuniform Tablets historically 100% confirm 587 as the correct date
Yet another false teaching...looks like the house of cards has already fallen 😊
Thank you for sharing that! The house has fallen indeed
Well done Seth 👍 I think its important also to note that this dating of Christ's return in 1874 and that Armageddon would most likely occur in 1914 came from Pyramidology which is related to Freemason theology and the great Pyramid of Giza.
When these supposed events didn't occur in 1914 a few years after the top executive editor of the Watchtower Corporation ( J Rutherford ) used 1914 in a different way saying that this was the year of Christ taking to heavenly throne and the generation to follow 1914 forward was "This Generation" spoken about by Jesus . To back 1914 Rutherford created a lie that ancient Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE it is well accepted and documented that this occurred in 586 BCE. What becomes a bit of understanding that the top men of the WTS were endeavoured to attract attention to the literature they published in a dishonest unscrupulous way and to further exalt themselves as Jesus's chosen ones (1919) 😳😳😳
I've read that! It's some wild stuff for sure. Thank you for watching!
Great video Seth.
For those that are unaware, In the King James, the root noun παρουσία or parousia is translated as *coming* in 1 Corinthians 16:17., 2 Corinthians 7:6., Philippians 1:26. and 2 Thessalonians 2:8,9.
Their New World Translation allows them to simply further their narrative.
The logic of your argument would hold true for the root verb προσκυνέω or proskyneō as well, where I know that you are well aware that they translate *worship* into "obeisance" in every instance that it is applicable to Jesus.
That's a great point! Thank you for sharing and watching!
@GreggBuckley Hi Greg. Here is the view of a progressive Trinitarian who still believes in the deity of Christ , Israel P. Warren, from his book The Parousia pgs 22/23:
"The view we have thus gained of the nature of the Parousia suggests to us also what is meant by Christ's coming. For though, as already remarked, this noun, iXeuac(;^ (coming) is used but once in the N. T. (Acts 52), and that not in reference to his second coming, yet the verb to come {sp-^oum^ rjxco) is very frequently employed in that signification. But we are to remember that this is the coming of a divine heing^ who already possesses omnipresence, and cannot therefore be said to come and go in the same sense as when applied to finite creatures. It is an instance of that anthropomorphism which is every where used in the Scriptures, and without which it would be impossible to form any conception of God or of his acts. That omnipresence, as a personal attribute, belongs to Christ will not be questioned by any who believe in his deity. Even when dwelling among men in his flesh he could say, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Nay, he directly affirmed that at the same moment when he was visibly present, talking with those about him, he was also in heaven. " No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven." John 3 : 13. Much more, then, may it be affirmed that in his glorified state he possesses this prerogative of deity, and can no more come in the sense of a literal approach than he can depart, leaving some portion of the universe emptyof his divine essence.
The only conceivable sense, then, in which Christ, in his divine offices of King, Life-giver, and Judge, can come to men, is that of manifestation. God came down on Mt. Sinai when the phenomena of the cloud, the thunder, and the earthquake appeared there which 5 ; manifested his presence. " In Scripture language," says Stuart, " God comes whenever he proceeds to do or execute any purpose of his will in respect to man. But we are never authorized to suppose an actual and visible coming^ except by symbols. God is always and everywhere present, and cannot come and go in the literal sense." Bib. Sac. IX. p. 340-1. See Gen. 11 : Ex. 3 : 8 ; Numb. 12 : 5 ; 22 : 9 ; Ps. 68 : 18 : 7 ; 21 ; Isa. 64 : 3. So says John, " Christ came by water and blood" (1 John 5:6); that is, he was manifested as a Saviour to men by the water and blood which issued from his heart when pierced by the soldier's spear.*"
As you can see, it is not only Jehova's Witnesses who believe that Parousia should be translated as 'presence' rather than 'coming'. SOME Progressive Trinitarians also believe this. Any thoughts on Israel Warren's position?
@@universalman5861 But Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is not present on earth
@@Scott-b6s-y4j Did you read anything of what Israel Warren's wrote?
Wow your explanation of these is so good!
Thank you! I'm very glad it was helpful
Thanks!
Thank YOU! Glad you enjoyed the video
many Achilles heal like stay alive till 75 or the year 2000 and now it's been over a hundred and 11 years since 1914 so I think they're running out of excuses
They sure are! To be honest, I'm amazed they still have members despite the obvious false prophecies that many of them personally lived through
Great information to have on hand Seth.
However, the question is NOT, "Will JWs do some personal research to find out that every reference you gave is proof, in black and white, that the WT has failed prophecy after prophecy?".
No, the question is much more shallow than that.
The question that must be asked before ALL other questions.....
When will DC cut and paste his retorts from his basement that don't have anything to do with the video al all?
Aah, the infamous DC.
Hilarious.
@FrankLee-gq8yc No, he doesn't have a point. DC is a moron and a troll.
I love Ehesians also, but DC, and others, don't seem to get it. Ehesians 4:6 doesn't deny the deity of Christ. the MAN,Christ Jesus, is subordinate to the Father in rank and purpose. He is equal to the Father in nature and essence because Yahweh is a triune being; Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in ONE being. Jesus said the Father is IN Him and He IN the Father. That's what makes the verse work. God over all and IN you all, thru Christ. But the "you" Paul is talking about is only born again Christians.
JWs straw man the nature of the Godhead. Do you know what that means? It means they have a false definition of the Godhead, and attack it. It means JWs bring up scriptures they believe supports their case. But it never does because they are arguing against something Christians don't believe.
@richbaker7187 I'm sure he'll be showing up any day now lol. Thanks as always for watching!
@@Scott-b6s-y4j How so Scott? Do you even know what a straw man argument is?
Really well done video. I’m an ex-JW, born in, and left it 30 years ago. I’m an atheist and don’t have a dog in this race anymore, but am always impressed by a thorough deconstruction of the 1914 doctrine.
Jehovahs witnesses are very sincere and tenacious people - love them
Watchtower theology however- is basically the “short bus” of Christian speculation
I love your videos❤
Thank you so much!
great content!
Outstanding presentation, thoroughly enjoy ur content.
For me, the discovery of 1914 being false w/ no archeological proof was the straw that broke the camel’s back. As a faithful Elder, I had already caught the religion in a revisionist history lie in their Oct. 2021 WT on p. 30 (the avg. JW would have no clue about this), but I simply chopped it up to a mistake, & “old light.”
However, it did peek my curiosity to examine my faith further b/c it was such a trivial matter that they weren’t being completely honest about it. Due to personal reasons, I was at a low point, & all I did was simply follow The Branch’s direction of feeding myself spiritual food + prayer. I decided to examine the book of Jeremiah, as he’s championed as someone who was persecuted, but by relying upon Jehovah, he endured. I used the Jeremiah Book we once studied as its companion to get a “deeper” understanding. Boy, oh boy; on pg. 56, the publication expounds on archeological evidence proving Babylon destroyed Jerusalem’s 1st temple in 607 BCE by providing evidence from acclaimed Archeologist & Excavator Eilat Mazar (RIP). There was one problem; I was familiar with her work from college, & not once did she ever say this. In fact, PBS did a special with her in 2008 entitled “The Palace of King David”, & throughout, she repeatedly said her team discovered via various articles that it’s confirmed Babylon destroyed the 1st temple between 587/586 BCE. This broke me.
But, the nail was doing the math per David Splane’s admonition during the JW broadcast. WT has deceptively changed the reign dates of Nebuchadnezzar, Evil-Merodach (his successor), Jehoiakim, Jehoiachin, & Zedekiah to fit the 607 BCE timeline. However, there’s one king they couldn’t adjust the date for, Nabonidus b/c he was the last ruling king of The Babylonian empire, & that distort their 70 weeks timeline.
If u look up Nabonidus in their Insight Book II, it says he ruled from 556 BCE-539 BCE; this is confirmed by archeological findings. If u keep reading, it says he succeeded Labashi-Marduk. The Insight Book doesn’t give details on him, HOWEVER, if u type his name in their online library, wouldn’t u know there’s a helpful WT article 1/1/1965 pp. 28-30 regarding the length of rule of all the Semite Kings from Nebuchadnezzar-Nabonidus! Now, to the org’s credit, they must’ve realized this error, so they tried to clean this up in their 2/1/1969 WT p. 89, but archeological evidence agreed that Labashi-Marduk was succeeded by Nabonidus.
So here’s the math per that 1965 WT going from Nabonidus to Nebuchadnezzar:
539-556 BCE (Nabonidus-17 yrs)
556-556 BCE (L. Marduk- 3-9 mos.)
560-556 BCE (Neriglissar- 4 yrs)
562-560 BCE (Evil-Marduk-2 yrs)
605-562 BCE (Nebuchadnezzar-43 yrs)
Per 2 Kings 25:8, it was in Nebuchadnezzar’s 19th yr that the house of God was burned & destroyed. (605 BCE - 19 = 586 BCE)
U can get from Nabonidus to Nebuchadnezzar, but if u use WT’s dates, u cannot get from Nebuchadnezzar to Nabonidus. It’s a 20 yr gap. The only reason there’s a discrepancy of 587/586 is due to not knowing exactly how long Labashi-Marduk ruled based upon limited findings. It’s confirmed less than a yr, but it’s between 3 mos - 9 mos. Also, it depends on which calendar is used, as well.
Apologize for the long post, but this is still a sensitive subject due to all of us putting our faith in a felonious date, dedicating our lives in servitude believing these men were chosen. Lastly, their empirical evidence is WWI for 1914 as “new light.” One problem; WWI started in the Summer of 1914, & Jesus’ presence didn’t begin until Oct. 1914 (per various articles including a 2014 one). Well that means Satan hadn’t been cast down to earth prior to WWI beginning, so even that is false reasoning.
Good post, my friend.
You said you were familiar with the work of Eilat Mazar. Did you study archaeology in college? Are you familiar with Babylonian Tablets BM38462 and VAT4956?
BM38462 (=LBAT1420) reports lunar eclipses for the first 29 years of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign. 14 were observed and the others were based on their calculations. Comparing the list of lunar eclipses with NASA’s list, they do NOT match the JW claim that Nebuchadnezzar’s reigned began in 625 BC. However, they match perfectly with Christian and Historian's claim that Nebuchadnezzar's ascension was in 605/4 BC.
Nebuchadnezzar arrived at Jerusalem in the 19th year of his reign and then destroyed Jerusalem and the temple (Jer 52:12-13). BM38462 lists 2 eclipses for Nebuchadnezzar’s 17th year, one in the fourth month (our June/July) and one in the tenth month (our December/January). For this tablet to match JW chronology, we must find an eclipse in July 609 BC and January 608 BC. When we look at NASA’s list, they aren’t there. HOWEVER, if Nebuchadnezzar’s 17th year was 589/8 BC as Christians and Historians say, then it does match!
This is just one tablet that disproves JW chronology and supports the destruction of Jerusalem in 586/7 BC.
See Hermann Hunger, ed., Astronomical Diaries and Related Texts from Babylonia, vol. V: Lunar and Planetary Texts (Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences, 2001), 26-30; 396.
July 28, 1914 Austria-Hungary declares war on Serbia
August 1-28, 1914 Germany declares war on Russia, France, and Belgium. Britain declares war on Germany. Austria declares war on Russia. Montenegro declares war on Austria. France declares war on Austria. Britain declares war on Austria. Montenegro declares war on Germany. Japan declares war on Germany. Austria declares war on Belgium.
November 5, 1914 Britain and France declare war on the Ottoman Empire.
April 6, 1917 The United States declares war on Germany.
This is the signs of Jesus' presence. What are the chances the end of the Gentile Times in Daniel's prophecy converge on the same year as Jesus' prophecy?
2,520 years after the crown was removed from king Zedekiah just as the bible indicated.
We don't know what month the war in heaven began and how long it lasted. We do know God's kingdom was born in 1914.
Joseph, the Seven Years War was called "the first world war" by Winston Churchill. There were many wars before 1914, so explain a couple things to me:
1. How do you get 2,520 years?
2. King Zedekiah was the king when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in 586/7 BC. So if you're counting 2,520 years from Zedekiah then how do you get 1914?
3. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Make sure that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is still to come. For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these things are the beginning of birth pains.
(Matt. 24:6-8 NET) If wars are just the beginning of birth pains, then the event (the birth) has not yet happened but still in the future. So explain to me how the war that began in 1914 meant Jesus had come.
4. Why did JWs claim that Jesus presence began in 1874 for years after 1914? If 1914 was so evident, why did your group not recognize it?
@@BasicBiblicalTruth
You should know the answers if your claim of being a Jehovah's Witness was true.
I have already posted the details on this if you want to look.
The bible says it was a 70 year exile not a 50 year exile. The calculation is similar to the prophecy of 70 weeks where a day is a year. The prophecy of 70 weeks points to the year the Messiah appeared the first time.
King David said: “Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me.” (Psalm 51:5) David was brought forth with error, and his mother experienced birth pains because of inherited sinfulness.
The birth pains in Matt. 24:6-8 is not the birth of God's kingdom.
The bad things that happen on the earth is due to Satan being angry knowing he has a short period of time.
In Revelation chapter 6 Jesus is the first one riding the white horse and all the problems earth experiences follow him.
What do you think is meant by Satan knowing he has a short period of time left?
This short period of time is called the “time of the end” in Daniel.
(Daniel 12:4) “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book UNTIL THE TIME OF THE END. Many will rove about, and the TRUE KNOWLEDGE WILL BECOME ABUNDANT.”
Evidently during Satan's short period of time true knowledge will become abundant. But for who?
What religious group has changed their doctrine over more than a century since 1914?
Hold on, Joseph.
1. The 70 year exile began with the first deportation, not when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed.
2. If one day is a year, then 70 years of exile was actually 25,000 years, which means Israel hasn’t returned from their exile in Babylon. (You can’t randomly pick and choose which numbers you want to play with.)
3. You didn’t deal with the fact that Zedekiah wasn’t deposed until 586/7 BC, not 607. Both bygeorgehemayberite and I dealt with the dating issue of the destruction of Jerusalem.
4. You also didn’t deal with the fact that JWs claimed Jesus’ presence began in 1874 long after 1914.
5. Have you never observed a child’s birth, or are you unfamiliar with childbirth? Birth pains proceed the birth. Once the birth happens, the birth pains are over. If wars are the _beginning_ of birth pains, then the main event (the birth) hasn’t happened. My goodness, the depth of JW ignorance is astounding.
One thing I bring up with The Watchtower in Daniel 4 is the seven Years. Who does it refer to? Nebuchadnezzar judgment. From Reading Daniel 4 his evident that applied only to nebuchadnezzar. They lift the number out of contacts, Believing it applies to Israel then they come up with their calculations what puts it in 1914. The long and short of it all the seven years apply only can Nebuchadnezzar's judgment that's all it means
Interesting video! In 1974 I discovered 2 scriptures, helping me not to believe the JV-teaching that all evil people would be removed from the earth. Hosea 6:2 can only be understood correct after reading 2 Peter 3:8 - That Jesus will return after 2000 years = within 2030 - 2033.
My experience of talking with JWs (at their carts) is that they switch off when I'm speaking, that is, they are taught to tune out the ramblings of worldly people who they believe are sent to deceive them and destroy their faith.
So don't approach with the attitude to "disprove" just talk.
Natural Conversion is the best way to get to know the true person and get a foot into the door when it comes to tryin to explain and or ask questions.
@@JamesHolmez I'm not trying to "convert" anyone. The organisation has a massive issue worldwide with the handling of child sexual abuse (most JWs have never heard of the Australian Royal Commission) plus an increasing problem with the shunning of children as the recent decision of the Norwegian Government illustrates in removing their status and ending state financial support. I'm sure most JWs I approach are sincere, but are deeply indoctrinated into the practices of the cult. They're happy to talk about the weather or such, but are actually hoping to draw in the vulnerable and the ignorant. They will lie to your face when asked about the shunning policy, for instance. There is an element of deceit which they call "theocratic warfare". It's justifiable to deceive in order to further the interests of the organisation.
I've applied this to JWs, and some of it to other religions as well. To which, I found out that religions have some mixture of inconsistencies, assumptions, misdirections, lies, and some kind of presentation without evidence. If there is one true religion, i have, after studying the Bible, the Quran, the Torah, Buddhism, & a few others, i have not found it.
Very well put . Watchtower are
a false prophet , preaching a false gospel from a false bible
has they worship their false god Jehovah. Amen
To get a full picture of how this 1914 doctrine started in the JW religion, you have to go all the way back to the year 1869 when Charles Taze Russell was only 17 years old. In that year, he came across a very strange booklet titled "The Even Tide" which was written in 1823 by a Bible prophecy speculator named John Aquila Brown. In this bizarre book, Brown attempts to convice his small group of followers that Daniel Chapter 4 had TWO (2) prophetic fulfillments. The first fulfillment in Nebuchadnezzar's time, and the second in the early 20th century.
Charles Taze Russell plagiarized most of John Aquila Brown's strange mathematical calculations (regarding the length of the Gentile times) to predict that Jesus would arrive in the first week of October 1914. When he didn't arrive, Russell was forced to make modifications, including the claim that Jesus DID arrive, but that he did so "invisibly". And the rest is JW history.
John Aquila Brown's 1823 work, The Even-Tide, introduced the interpretation that the "seven times" mentioned in Daniel 4 symbolized a period of 2,520 years, commencing in 604 B.C.E. and concluding in 1917 C.E.
AD1914
This concept influenced subsequent eschatological thinkers, including Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Watch Tower Society. Russell adopted and adjusted this interpretation, calculating the "times of the Gentiles" as a 2,520-year period starting in 606 B.C.E. and ending in 1914 C.E.
WIKIPEDIA
This framework became central to Russell's teachings on biblical chronology and prophecy.
You mean he recycled the same arguments Adventists had already come up with after the great disappointment of 1844.... It's almost like that time period was a trial run for JW theology.
That's their first mistake believing Jesus would judge churches instead of individual ls that belonged to different denominations then 1914
I asked Chat GPT if anyone at all supports 607 BCE other than Watchtower. The answer was no. No one. So Watchtower is a complete outlier on that date.
Interesting! I'm super curious to see how AI affects the cults in the near future. Thanks for sharing!
@theologywithseth I was a JW elder of 20 years until 6 months ago. There is very high pressure from the Governing Body not to research outside WT publications, almost a paranoia about it. I felt guilt and that I was disloyal when I first dared to look at alternative sources. But so glad I did!
I really appreciate this channel by the way, detailed and accurate, and with a respectful tone. I feel I can leave Watchtower without losing my faith, and that is a huge deal. I started praying again, and more earnestly.
@Miles_Carditis That makes me very happy to hear. So many people who leave these high-control type groups like the Watchtower often abandon faith in God Himself and part of my goal with these videos is to help people realize that you don't have to do that. God never handcuffed Himself to the Watchtower so you can certainly have one without the other!
Amazing. I love light over dark ministry's channel but his retoric is better for people who already want to leave. While yours are more likely to help jw's to realise the watchtower lies. I'm a former JW baptised as roman catholic last easter. Please pray that my family do the same ❤
I love Light Over Dark! I've learned a lot from him as well. You're right about the rhetoric though lol. So glad you made it out of the Watchtower! I'll be praying for your family
when do you plan on starting your series on mormonism?
Hi there! I have a couple more videos to make related to JW's, but Lord willing, I should be ready to dive into the LDS world first thing next year! I hope you'll stick around
@@theologywithsethThat is so exciting, looking forward to it so much. I am a former Mormon, so this is a topic I am very excited about. You have done such a great job with the JW videos, covering so many topics with a great approach. There is just so much more with Mormonism. I will be praying for you as you are making those videos.
Excellent video on the JW prophecy about Watchtower false authority! Also they teach Jesus is Michael the Archangel which is absolutely false. Get out of her my people!
Amen!
It is not false if you accept Jesus is the angel of the Lord
@@Scott-b6s-y4jAngel=messenger so that isn’t false. But Michael didn’t die for our sins nor does he sit at the right hand of God Himself on a throne.
@truth-seekerb770 Michael as a man died
@@Scott-b6s-y4jwho are you even talking about? We were talking about Michael the Archangel…you’re a brainwashed JW apparently. So sorry for you
i remember back in 1967 i read a book that predicted the end of the world in 1975. this was by the jehovas witnesses .
Can I give one suggestion? JW often say when Jesus in Matthew 6:9 said: "Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name" They often say here that Jesus said by "your name" as Jehovah. They say look Christians we consider name Jehovah as holy while we "bad Christians" never use holy name Jehovah or Yahveh. Can you please make a video related to this topic?
Planning on releasing a video about the Divine Name very soon!
Excellent video!
Thank you so much!
Right now is a space between “old light” and “new light”
When I was studying with jes. We didn't get to 1914 yet but it was mentioned and they laughed about it
I see so many parallels with the Shincheonji cult.
The jws have Jesus coming and going so many times it's dizzying. Lol. He came invisibly in 1874, then came as king in 1878 (?), came in 1914, which was meant to be as executioner, at which time worldy rule was supposed to end (It did not) came as the messenger of the covenant in 1918, then he comes again at a future great tribulation. The jws have changed their language on this though. They say that Jesus did not return in 1914 but only that he "turned his attention to the Earth". I read that in the 1993 publication, "JWs. Proclaimers of God's Kingdom". From memory.
You won’t Brother I was on. They are hypnotised.
Also expect the JW to change Jesus presence to “begin at the start of Armageddon , not in 1914 as we first thought, what a wonderful new light Jehovah has provided for us at this difficult times”
Trust me it’s coming , sooner then later
Rutherford still bought a house for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to live in which was supposed to take place in 1935! When the patriarchs did not ressurect to life according to watchtower schedule, Rutherford lived in the very same mansion for the next 15 years 😂😂😂😂
Beth Sarim, San Diego. See it on Google street view
@bryn6000 a living monument to false prophecy, but the watchtower and it's adherents just sweep it under their theological carpet of prophetic failures as if it doesn't exist!
It was great fun in the old days here when Rutherford's mistress's great nephew used to do videos!
4440 Braeburn Rd in Kensington Park, San Diego, CA
Love it!
Thank you!
Appreciate the analysis, Seth.
Concerns over the timing of Jesus’ return has served as a strength and weakness for Christianity since the start. The JWs are one of many groups to save face by post-hoc repackaging a predicted physical apocalypse as an unfalsifiable event in an undetectable -higher- spiritual plane.
2nd Peter’s 3:8 also explained why Jesus did not return within the lifetime of his followers in the 1st Century as predicted in Matthew 24:34, 10:23, 16:28, 23:35; Luke 21:32; Mark 13:30; 1 John 2:18; etc.
The governing body are and have always been false prophets.
Thank you Seth for posting and God bless you.
Gilly wife of Mark
Amen. Thank you for watching!
I'm not a Christian, but yes, these are good arguments against JW propaganda. However, they seem to not hear you point out th se facts to them. It's quite frustrating.
I thought that the Gov Body members claim that an angel appeared to them told them that they are anointed and selected to the Gov Body??
Something most JWs don't know is Rutherford's book that said his inspiration came from fallen angels who had split from Satan. And he trusted them.
Can you tell me what book? Thx
It was quite beautiful, art nouveau. My father collected old literature when he joined. When he died in 1988 I burned his collection like so many others. We had no idea about the internet back then.
She I first started watching TH-cam Mikey and Kimmy talk about a site that had an amazing collection of the old stuff they don't want you to see.
Last I heard they were trying to shut them down. And back then they had pics of satanic looking stuff at bethel
WatchTower was the one trying to shut down the sight.
1799 ? I thought it all started with Russell 1848 ? How could 1799 be in this conversation?
Date changes and what some call “disappointments” will lead to reinterpretations.
I’m not a dispensationalist but believe that “Jesus will come again in glory at the end of the age.” Beyond that it is understandable that there is confusion on the subject of the Second Coming. It is complex enough a subject that it is useful to false teachers.
Their teachings are adulterated with lies, hypocrisy and ignorance.
The great day of Jehovah is near.....(Zeph. 1:14)
1914 Generation........
Don't know anything about the over lapping of the generations, but the prophecy of Jesus said that this generation would NOT perish until All the thing Jesus was prophesying about happened. So my question would be, "how long is a generation. To me that would mean how long CAN that generation last. Now let us go back before the flood and read in Genesis 6:3: After that Jehovah said: "My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his (Mans) days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years."
Now if the generation that Jesus was speaking of started in 1914 then add 120 years you get 2034. Now we have to believe that Jehovah CAN keep one person (or more) from that generation alive for the 120 years. Moses was allowed to live 120 years, and his brother Aaron lived to be 123. Just a couple of months ago (present time), a woman died that was 119. Now do some thinking......
That's why they're changing it soon
According to JW teachings, the remnant would have been alive in 1914, even if this were true and they were newborns, they would be 110+ years old! Their teachings also state that they are the last generation, so this means that when the last person who is of the remnant dies, then that is the end times. There is a book that is made available during the large assemblies, but not to everyone - only the governing body and elders can access it, this book has a list of the remnant (supposedly)- if this were true, they would be able to pinpoint the last days - but no one knows this, not angels, not Jesus, only God, the Father.
Thank you. But I think Watchtower teaches that Christ became king in heaven in 1914, meaning for them his unvisible presence. He will return later, fighting the battle of Armageddon after judgring the sheep and the goats. I have never heard any teachings from that Christ has returned on earth. Greetings from Germany.
They do now..... at the time 1914 meant all sorts of things, at one point the date was actually said to be 1915, and then they realised there was no year zero. Russell predicted it would be the coming of armageddon..... the resurrection of the 144,000... the start of the great tribulation etc etc. when none of those things happened, they settled on oh it must have been an invisible presence. Funnily enough, the same thing was said by the Adventists almost 50 years before, after the great disappointment of 1844 when trying to cling to William Millers predictions. Russell had almost zero original ideas but was rather good at recycling old ideas, with modified dates.
I have a question-
Why would there be a need for a “sign” of the son of man if all where to see him?
In fact what would the point of Matthew 24 be (presented in signs) if this chap is going to be perfectly visible?
If you carefully read Matt 24, the signs, earthquakes, famine, war etc are presented so that people would NOT look to them as a sign of Jesus' 2nd coming . V6 "see to it that you are not alarmed".
Brilliant. And here I was doing all kinds of complicated things and this bloke just nails it with an off the cuff bullseye. What a simply brilliant observation.
@ I do not believe that 1914 marked the sign of the prescience, however the apostles asked a very straightforward question
“what will be the “sign” of your prescience?
Interesting where you relate the verses in Acts, none of Christ’s opposers were there to witness his ascension and it’s my belief “in the same manner. . I.c only to his followers 👍
Some questions if you are interested in furthering this line of thought. Do you believe that all eyes will not see Jesus because he PHYSICALLY CANNOT be seen? Do you see Jesus retuning as a SRIRITUAL BEING? [ Some may counter that Elijah saw the whole army of heaven when god opened his eyes] Finally, how do you harmonize the expression 'all eyes will see him'? Is this anthropomorphism? Or something else?
@stephenletsnot6195 I also do not belive 1914 means anything. Is is simply a made up date, a continuation of the 7th day Adventist Great Disappointment type of speculative reasoning. Your response "in the same manner" is vague. Firstly, are you willing to comment on whether Christ returns in a physical or spiritual form? And why?
They're not even Christians, of course, as they reject His divinity.
Agreed. The Divinity of Christ is one of the most fundamental teachings of the Bible
@theologywithseth Seth, respectfully, there is not one Jehovah's Witness anywhere that denies Jesus divinity. He is the image of the invisible God. He is in the form of God.
We absolutely know and believe this...
But we also know and believe what he said:
The Father, Jehovah YHWH is the one True God, the Almighty, the ONLY one we worship.
Just as Jesus exclusively worships his Father, so do we.
It's not a case of rejecting Christ's divinity, it's simply we obey what he said and worship the one who "made him Lord and Christ". Act2:36
As I said when I spoke to you before my other account was deleted, (frankly) I think you are coming from a good place but would do well to actually sit down and talk with a JW before making these videos.
@@JonnyDoe-k1k When Christians say that JWs deny the divinity of Jesus, we are saying that they deny that he is Jehovah/YHWH.
The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is YHWH, the second person of the triune God, who became human to die for sinners. JWs fail to grasp (or refuse to accept) that Jesus has two natures-God and human-and so they use passages that speak about his human nature to claim he isn't YHWH, such as you have done with Acts 2:36.
JWs deny the biblical witness about Jesus.
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
No, the Cyrus Cylinder 1879 is the Achilles Heel for ALL religions and isms.
Interesting
You would think Jews and Romans would see skeletons walking by.
You missed a very important scripture. But how it relates to the subject at hand is not very obvious so it's understandable. It's 2 Peter 3:4, 9.
In verse 4 doubters are asking where is this promised presence of Jesus. In verse 9, Peter's response includes the important and very relevant point that the promised presence hasn't come yet because God is patient and desires all to attain to repentance and not be destroyed. Do you see the implication of this statement? When the promised presence begins, there will be no time or opportunity to repent. It will then be too late. In other words, the presence will not start invisibly with life continuing on as normal (relatively speaking). On the contrary, the start of the presence is here being linked with the start of direct divine intervention to destroy the wicked with no further opportunity to repent. Peter's understanding of the presence is very much at odds with JWs understanding which involves the presence starting more than a century ago, affording sinners that much time to still repent. That makes no sense in the context of what 2 Peter 3:9 is clearly implying.
There is something else very interesting about 2 Peter 3:4. Peter explicitly mentions in vs 3 that these doubters will be living in "the last days" while asking where is the presence. JWs believe the start of the presence coincides with the start of the last days! If JWs are correct about the start of the presence coinciding with the start of the last days, that would mean these doubters are living _during the presence_ while asking where is the presence! If JWs are correct, what would Peter's best response to these doubters be? It seems rather pertinent and obvious for him to mention that these doubters don't realize the presence has already begun invisibly and these doubters don't have the spiritual insight to realize it. Because per JW doctrine these doubters are living during the presence! But Peter says nothing along these lines! As far as Peter is concerned, these doubters living _during the last days_ are correct in their insinuation that the presence hasn't begun yet! They are only wrong in their insinuation that it will not come.
So 2 Peter chapter 3 is completely at odds with JWs' understanding of Christ's presence. Who is wrong here? Is it the inspired writer Peter; or is it the JWs? It has been said before and I think it's worth repeating: everything good and truthful about the JW religion, is not unique to JWs. And everything that is unique to JWs is not truthful and/or good.
That's not what we believe that he already returned in 1914 he started the cleansing of the heavens in that year and and battled with Satan and hurled him to the Earth
Jesus said that only the Father knows the date and hour. Furthermore, when Jesus ascended, the angel said that just as He left, the same way He shall return...not using the Bible as a basis is disobeying the Word of God.
Ok he is invisible... but, still, where?
Hi Sèth. JWs now relish that they correctly prophesised Elon Musk, something to do with the statue and the clay feet ... would like to hear an explanation please
They will not stop the cult if they drop 1914.
Oh my apostates and they do not know. How simple the true gospel is
Thank you.
Jehovah W and Christians are around 0.1% and 30% of the World's population, respectfully.
How about the rest of the World who wasn't introduced to Christ?
I believe God is a loving God. All moral and caring people are getting to heaven.
What does it mean in Hebrews 9 when it says " seen by those earnestly looking for him" .....JWs will say "you see he will be in the minds of those and only those who earnestly believe in him" ....
verse
@Scott-b6s ...wrong book, Revelation 1:7
@@RG-qn2qm it does not say what you said but it does say there will be a sign
@Scott-b6s Christ is speaking in Matthew 24 up to verse 34 about the now, after verse 34 he's speaking about future events which is in our day.
A sign is a physical manifestation that the magic is real. Now, take away the impossible magic, and what is left???
Why don't Italians like Jehoes? Because they don't like any witnesses.
Hey Acts 1:6-8 says only Father knows the days and times...plus Jesus's said in Matthew 24:36...only the Father knows.not angels..not the Son( Jesus)
And I've reading Bibles...cover to cover...So...Simple.
Enjoy your work.(CORINTHIANS 15...1 Thessalonians...2nd Thessalonians).
If Christ was ruling now,why is Christianity such a mess now.?)
What about the well for cleansing of sin and an abhorrent thing..etc etc
Lots of little errors in this video. That's par for the course, but I'd nonetheless like you to tell us the answer to Jesus' question (Mt 24:45): who is the faithful and discreet slave?
The faithful and discreet slave is a character in a parable Jesus tells, and it refers to any Christian who is properly preparing for Christ's Second Coming. It's not a prophecy of Charles Taze Russell, or the Governing Body of the Watchtower. If you'd like to argue otherwise, you'll need to demonstrate that from the context of Matthew 24.
The jws have believed or been taught various things about this over the last 100+years and they've oscillated between these understandings. It was Jesus, it was Jesus and the consecrated, it was a man (Russel), it was all the anointed remnant. For decades, up until 2012, the faithful and discreet slave was all the anointed remnant. The Insight on the Scriptures volume gave convincing evidence for this conclusion. But, in 2012 this was changed, and the faithful and discreet slave became synonymous with the governing body, a small group of men. The entry in the Insight Volume was removed and replaced with the "new light". It's kind of weird that the faithful and discreet slave, who was allegedly approved and appointed by Jesus in 1918 to provide the right spiritual food, didn't even know who they were. Lol!
@@theologywithseth Thanks for the reply, Seth. The burden of proof is not on me. I asked you a question. Your answer just raises other questions. 1) If the F&DS is "any Christian who...", who are "his household"? 2) If the F&DS is "any Christian who...", in what way can this apply to said Christian: "his lord hath made ruler"? 3) What is the "meat in due season"?
I see you got a like for the answer. A bit premature, I suggest. I mean that it's too easy to give a peremptory answer to one of Jesus' greatest riddles and get an instant like. I therefore admit we may BOTH be a little bit wrong. Jesus is smarter than us.
The evidence for the Governing Body is a website with FREE access to Bible literature in 1,097 languages ("meat in due season") served by 9 million trained "domestics" uninterruptedly for over 100 years, which is unparalleled in history. To my mind - personally - the faithful bit is that we don't kill people (not like other "Christians" who have killed millions in wars, etc.).
You constantly suggest that JWs are not free to express themselves without the Watchtower. Really? Do you think I need the Watchtower to express myself? By the way, can you check your info around timestamp 25'30 in "Jehovah's Witnesses: How Their Beliefs Clash With Christianity" where you claim that "the Watchtower is God's prophetic organization"? That expression, according to my admittedly fallible research, is used only once in JW literature and describes the organization of the "FALSE prophet". The Watchtower is NOT prophetic, although it has done a pretty good job for a group of fallible amateurs (do you want an example?).
Let me repeat: JWs are not expert apologists or exegetes. They preach ONLY the immanence - and imminence - of the Kingdom of God. I think about the identity of the F&DS a lot, but somebody saved me from despair and gave me a REAL reason to live and to give by pointing to our Lord and Savior, Jesus, while Jesus ("his lord" in Mt 24:45) points to his Father, Jehovah. I had never liked JWs before then, but that's life... Thanks again.
Hi again @Mk-xw1yj , I think you would benefit tremendously from my video on the Watchtower and prophecies. In that video I document exactly where and how the Watchtower claims to be a prophetic organization on par with the prophet Ezekiel from the Bible. I also show how their prophecies routinely fail to come to pass and how the Biblical test of a prophet in Deuteronomy 18 demonstrates that they are not a true prophet and should therefore not be trusted. On that basis alone, I can confidently tell you they are most certainly *not* the Faithful and Discreet Slave, regardless of how you interpret that parable. I'll leave a link below and would strongly encourage you to watch it.
As far as the free website, the longstanding ministry, and even the pacifism, these are all things you can find in various denominations of mainstream Christianity too. They're not unique to the Watchtower, and of course you can't forget, for the first 1800 years of Church History, the Watchtower wasn't doing any ministry whatsoever. I find it hard to believe God would leave Himself without faithful ministers for the better part of two millennia. Anyway, I'll link my prophecy video below and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it!
th-cam.com/video/qlGEaOYArsQ/w-d-xo.html
@@theologywithseth Thanks again, Seth. 1) You write: "the Watchtower claims to be a prophetic organization on par with the prophet Ezekiel from the Bible". That's not true. I previously responded to your "prophetic organization" claim (see above).
2) I'll watch the video, but I suspect it's about 18..., 1925, 1975... Yes, I watched it (for the second time). True, it's embarrassing in places. I could respond to your choice of evidence (1971, 1972, 1914 (the very ancient Studies in the Scriptures), 1920, WT 1922 and 1923...). OK, the WT sticks its neck out. What organization do you belong to, Seth? What does it says about that? What have Protestants been doing and saying since 1870? I don't forget the tens of millions who died in wars fought by Protestants of all stripes, including Calvinists (I am very familiar with their history and intolerant mentality - on the whole; not speaking personally). The WT never makes prophecies like the prophets or apostles. (JW definition: "Prophets acted as spokesmen for God, conveying not only predictions but also Jehovah’s teachings, commands, and judgments"). Any JW will tell you that prophecy as a gift ended almost 2000 years ago. Also, remember that Elijah made a gross miscalculation, Nathan erroneously gave David the green light to build the temple, and the apostles naively asked: "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" Big mistakes... The editors of the WT will be judged like everyone else...
3) As for pacifists, we're not, but we don't participate in military action or do guns. Please name one of those "various denominations of mainstream Christianity" that is "pacifist", with a wee bit of evidence if possible.
4) Yes, God and Jesus DID indeed exercise patience "for the first 1800 years of Church History". See Psalm 110:3 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool" and Mt 13:39 "the harvest is the end of the world". Sorry if this is long. If so, just choose any topic. I don't expect you to spend a long time on this. Also, it's your site...
Seth please consult a Jehovah's witness before assuming and posting these assumptions
1914 was the beginning
Beginning of what?
And how do you know?
@@BasicBiblicalTruth You don't know? Why are you on this channel?
I know where I'm going! How about you?
Have you chosen your final destination? Let me know!
Maybe Fire and Brimstone would be a good choice for you. It's got to be better than Eternal Punishment.
Let me know which option you choose!
READ BELOW ↓
Most Christian congregations claim that Jesus is God and will not even acknowledge Jehovah God's name. As a matter of fact, they hate God's name, and they are not going access to Jesus or receive everlasting life.
Also, most Christian congregations refuse to comply with Jesus' New Commandments and The Model Prayer. The most important scriptures of all and they are not going to be saved!!
Get a Bible that has God's name restored - instead of a false religion Bible that has removed Jehovah God's name 6,828 places. The correct English translation for the word JHWH is Jehovah.
All English Bibles say God's name is Jehovah (not Jesus). So the correct English translation for the name JHWH or Yahweh is Jehovah.
READ BELOW ↓
Below is a list of options for the wicked.
A - Abyss
B - Aionios
C - Eternal Damnation
D - Eternal Punishment
E - Fiery Lake of Burning Sulfur
F - Fire and Brimstone
G - Gehenna
H - Grave
I - Hades
J - Hell
K - Inferno
L - Limbo
M - Lower World
N - Pandemonium
O - Pit
P - Pyr
Q - Shoel
R - Tararus
Their options are wide open, so they should choose carefully.
Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Have a nice day!
You didn't answer my question.
@@BasicBiblicalTruth Two things you can't get around are taxes and scriptures!
Contact Bethel, I don't go to Kingdom halls but very seldom!
I know where I'm going! How about you?
Have you chosen your final destination? Let me know!
Maybe Fire and Brimstone would be a good choice for you. It's got to be better than Eternal Punishment.
Let me know which option you choose!
READ BELOW ↓
Most Christian congregations claim that Jesus is God and will not even acknowledge Jehovah God's name. As a matter of fact, they hate God's name, and they are not going access to Jesus or receive everlasting life.
Also, most Christian congregations refuse to comply with Jesus' New Commandments and The Model Prayer. The most important scriptures of all and they are not going to be saved!!
Get a Bible that has God's name restored - instead of a pagan false religion Bible that has removed Jehovah God's name 6,828 places.
All English Bibles say God's name is Jehovah (not Jesus). So, the correct English translation for the name JHWH or Yahweh is Jehovah.
READ BELOW ↓
Below is a list of options for the wicked.
A - Abyss
B - Aionios
C - Eternal Damnation
D - Eternal Punishment
E - Fiery Lake of Burning Sulfur
F - Fire and Brimstone
G - Gehenna
H - Grave
I - Hades
J - Hell
K - Inferno
L - Limbo
M - Lower World
N - Pandemonium
O - Pit
P - Pyr
Q - Shoel
R - Tararus
Their options are wide open, so they should choose carefully.
Matthew 7:14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Have a nice day!
The idea of a visible return of Jesus seems to me to be thoroughly
Negated by Mathew ch. 25 and psalms 2:6 ,where it shows Jesus
Instalment as king goes unnoticed.!!
How do any of those verses challenge a visible return of Jesus? And perhaps most importantly, how would you refute all the arguments presented in the video?
The scriptures you quoted about seeing christ at his second coming is all about seeing christ in his glorified state just as the angels spoke to John James and Peter , you will see him in the same manner as he ascended into heaven . So how do we see him coming in the clouds because this cloud is vield . This is why James in James 5 : 8 says to prepare our hearts. It is only at our death do we see our Lord just like Stephen did when he was being stoned by the pharisees. Acts chapter 7 . 1 John is meant to be applied in the same manner . We are first to .eet the Lord in the air / wind as in Matthew chapter 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2 before we enter heaven . Good video but Jesus will not appear physically to the world . Judgment was on Babylon the great/ the Jewish religious system Matthew chapter 12 : 41 , 42 and 45 Matthew 23 . It was for there generation in which all things were accomplished in 70 AD
Your interpretation that Christ’s second coming is solely spiritual and will only be “seen” upon each believer’s death lacks comprehensive scriptural support. The Bible repeatedly describes Christ’s return as a visible, powerful event witnessed by all. For instance, Acts 1:11 states that He will return "in the same way" He ascended, which implies a physical and visible return, rather than a purely spiritual one. The cloud imagery in passages like Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 symbolizes divine majesty, not concealment, and suggests that "coming on the clouds" is a clear, public event. Stephen’s vision in Acts 7, where he sees Christ at God’s right hand, was unique to his martyrdom and does not imply that believers only encounter Christ upon death. Furthermore, the gathering of believers "in the air" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is broadly interpreted as a unifying event at Christ’s return rather than an individual experience at death. Lastly, while Matthew 23 and 24 address judgment on Jerusalem, “Babylon the Great” in Revelation represents a broader corrupt system rather than just the Jewish religious order. These passages, read together, point toward a return of Christ that is visible, powerful, and universally recognized rather than a hidden or solely spiritual event.
I've spoken to the JWs about 1914 and this video is incorrect.
From your understanding, then explain the JW 1914 teaching.
@BasicBiblicalTruth The JWs don't believe Jesus has already returned as stated in this video. Rather they believe Jesus officially sat down on kings throne in heaven and began ruling as king from heaven beginning in 1914 after the symbolic band around the tree stump was lifted in Daniels prophecy and the end of the gentle times. (The band on appointing a new king will be lifted at the end of the gentle times). Daniel 4:15. 9:24-27. Luke 21:24. Starting from the destruction of the temple in 607 BCE (the last king Zedekiah sat on the throne) + the seven times=2,520, brings us to 1914.
2,520-1913=607. 607 1/4+1913 3/4 = 1914.
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It was Charles Taze Russell and the bible students sometime around the year 1890 who calculated the year of the destruction of the temple and the seven times, and the removal of the symbolic band around the stump would indicate that Jesus would officially be crowned as king in heaven in 1914, and he will come with the angels and destroy this wicked world, at the end of the gentle times which ended in 1914. They thought Jesus was coming and chaos will engulf the earth. Apparently Jesus didn't come instead he only arrived in his glory (as king) in heaven according to Matthew 25:31. But the first world war did break out in 1914 and chaos soon engulf the earth.
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Modern day JWs believe that when Jesus sat down on the throne or was appointed king in heaven war soon broke out in heaven between Michael and his angels & Satan and and his demons, and the first world war broke out on the earth as well in 1914.
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This belief of 1914 doesn't rest on the whole belief system of the JWs. The JWs don't teach that you must accept this in order to be saved. Just because the guy in the video doesn't understand the end of the gentile times in regards to bible chronology doesn't mean the JWs are wrong. This is one of the main reasons I do not post videos calling someone else's doctrine wrong, especially if I don't understand it.
JWs originally claimed that Jerusalem was destroyed in 606 BC, it wasn't till long after 1914 that they changed the date to 607 BC.
They taught long after 1914 that Jesus' "presence" began in 1874, that he was crowned king in 1878, and that 1914 would be the physical return of Jesus.
JWs taught 1874 for years after 1914.
In 1922, they said, “WE HAVE no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925.”[1] Hmmm.
As for Daniel, go read the context. Who is the verse speaking about in 4:15? Nebuchadnezzar.
Dan 9:27-27 is speaking about the Messiah's coming and death (i.e., when Jesus died in 30 AD).
So, where do they get 2520 years?
[1] Watchtower 1922 May 15 p.147
@BasicBiblicalTruth 606 or 607 is close enough in my opinion because he's trying to find tune his discovery, archeologists believe the temple was destroyed in 586 or 587, I don't see you criticizing those two different years for the temple destruction although that's only 50 yrs not 70.
As far 1874, 1925, 1918, those were considered important years as Mr. Russell puts it. He believed certain events would take place before, during and after the primary date of 1914. You're making a video about Russell's beliefs and you don't know what you're talking about. Hummmm. Maybe you should not believe everything you read on Google.
Again, you're wrong, the JWs do not believe Jesus came as your video suggest. I'm a critical biblical scholar, I make it a point to research religious beliefs instead of making assumptions like you did in this video. As far as Russell coming up with 1914 is interesting to me because no one during that time understood nor figured out how to calculate the end of the gentile times using Rev 12: 6, 14 and how to apply the 'Seven times'. Whatever God gave Russell to understand is beyond your comprehension, that's why you criticize what you don't understand, that's typical. Me on the other hand understand how he came up with 1914, and it looks sound on paper to me so far.
@BasicBiblicalTruth 606 or 607 is no more different than archeologists believing the temple was destroyed in 586 or 587. However, that's only 50 yrs not 70 yrs. I don't see you criticizing them for two different years. 😂.
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"They taught long before 1914 that Jesus 'presence' begin in 1878, that he was crowned king in 1878 and then in 1914 the physical return."...........
1. Russell and Barbour (not the JWs organization) issued a book called 'Three worlds, and the harvest of this world'. They claimed Christ will invisibly return in 1874 and resurrect the Saints in 1875, and the end of the harvest and the rapture of the saints by 1878, and the final end will be 1914. Totally different than what you said.
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1914 is what I'm primarily focused on, the rest to me is theology just like the concept of the Trinity.
Whether you like it or not he got 1914 partially correct, and the JWs organization today has fine tuned 1914, and I can agree with that because the numbers add up.
1.Naboplassar (Nebuchadnezzar's father) ruled from 626 BC - 605 BC
2. Nebuchadnezzar ruled from 605 - 562 BC.
3. In the 19th year of both kings we get:
626 - 19 = 607 BC
605 - 19 = 586/587 BC
4. 607 BC is in the secession of Babylonian kings timeline, it's obvious to me that the Babylonian Chronicles is not without error.
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Although Russell was not perfect in his initial theology, he was close enough to figure that 1914 is accurate according Bible chronology.
Revelation 1 JWs will say this is a metaphor because how can those who pierced him see him when they have been dead for 2000yrs.
Jesus second coming AD70
@Scott-b6s ???????
@@RG-qn2qm Christ came back AD70
@Scott-b6s ...No, his judgment came in 70AD, he didn't come back in any form but his judgment was fulfilled by using the Romans.
@RG-qn2qm Derich Jester
The world end 1757
Only the holy spirit will help people jesus die for the whole world sin.
You are right to criticise the Watchtower for their doctrine regarding the year 1914. Their constant attempts to explain this obviously false teaching has now reached ridiculous proportions. However, in saying that the second coming of Christ will be in a physical sense, you are mistaken. Nowhere in scripture do we find evidence for this, quite the opposite in fact. In 2 Thessalonians 1:7, the apostle Paul writes: “And to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels.”
If Jesus is to return to earth in the flesh, why would the scripture say that he will be accompanied by his mighty angels?
Also consider what was seen in vision and recorded by the apostle John in
Revelation 19:11-16, it says there:
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords
Please don't exchange one false doctrine with another
Why do you think Jesus returning with angels means he must be invisible?
@knockeyecubley3700 I am also curious about your reasoning here. I don't see how Christ's coming with angels says anything about whether or not he's visible. If anything, I would think the language in 2 Thessalonians 1:7 of Christ being "revealed" would suggest the exact opposite- he was hidden at first, and now he's being revealed, i.e. *seen visibly* . Tell me what I'm missing, friend!
The argument contains several logical errors:
1. **Non Sequitur**: The presence of angels doesn’t logically exclude a physical return of Jesus.
2. **Selective Interpretation**: Ignoring verses like Acts 1:11, which implies a physical return, creates a biased view.
3. **Symbolic Language Misinterpretation**: Using Revelation’s symbolism to deny a physical return conflates metaphor with literal impossibility.
4. **Argument from Silence**: Assuming that a lack of explicit mention means something won’t happen is flawed reasoning.
5. **False Dichotomy**: Assuming only two options-Watchtower doctrine or a non-physical return-ignores other perspectives.
6. **Overgeneralization**: Basing conclusions on selective verses without considering the full scriptural context leads to an incomplete view.
I’m the book of Zechariah 14, verse 3-5 talks about The Lord coming down on the mount of Olives. The same place where he ascend. It mention’s that the Lord will come with all his Holy ones.
Where else do we read that? Jude 1:14 The Lord coming with countless Holy ones, also Revelation 19:14 which you stated already. But I think the point is that Jesus has a body that he appeared to his disciples on and off before his ascension to heaven. Don’t you think he will return with the same Glorified Body?
@@MichaelSmith-lm5slI love your use of Logic. Well done.
God is going to destroy all of mainstream Christianity. For teaching lies and for false worship. Only Jehovah's witnesses teach the truth that God's purpose is for those who come out of the great tribulation are those who inherit the earth. Jesus christ says;
The meek will inherit the earth. And Jesus taught his followers to pray saying let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Only 144000 who are Jesus's spirit anointed brothers are those who rule with him in heaven. We are his spirit begotten brothers and we are co-heirs with Jesus Christ and as Jehovah gave Jesus life in himself which is immortality Jehovah also gives we who are Jesus's co-heirs Jehovah also gives us immortality which means we have life in ourselves. We are indestructible and immortal. No other Christian religion teaches these basic truths. Jehovah's witnesses know the truth about paradise earth. And the condition of the dead. The dead are awaiting the ressurection to the earth. Only we who have the firstfruits of the Spirit are part of the first ressurection. Jehovahs witnesses teach the truth about pagan holiday's and that Jesus is not God that he is God's only begotten son. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. John calls him the only begotten God meaning he is the only one who Jehovah God created directly with his own hands everything after Jesus was created through Jesus and for Jesus.
I normally limit myself to one or two threads on any one video. However, I have come across a line of reasoning that may interest those who believe that Christ will return "in the same manner " that he departed the earth. Israel P. Warren reasons: "As he went up " a cloud received him," and that was all. But is that the way he is to come again? -that the fulfillment of the sublime language in which his return is elsewhere set forth, " in the glory of his Father," " with his mighty angels," the " flaming fire," " the voice of the archangel and the trump of God? " Insist upon it that exact " identity of form and manner " is meant, and you place this text in irreconcilable contradiction with every other which describes the ineffable majesty of his appearing."
From The Parousia pg.65
Jehovah knows, but I suggest to read, what is stated of Jesus Christ in
Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 19)
“But again, those who assert that He was simply a mere man, begotten by Joseph, remaining in the bondage of the old disobedience, are in a state of death having been not as yet joined to the Word of God the Father, nor receiving liberty through the Son, as He does Himself declare: "If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." John 8:36 But, being ignorant of Him who from the Virgin is Emmanuel, they are deprived of His gift, which is eternal life; Romans 6:23 and not receiving the incorruptible Word, they remain in mortal flesh, and are debtors to death, not obtaining the antidote of life. To whom the Word says, mentioning His own gift of grace: "I said, You are all the sons of the Highest, and gods; but you shall die like men." He speaks undoubtedly these words to those who have not received the gift of adoption, but who despise the incarnation of the pure generation of the Word of God, defraud human nature of promotion into God, and prove themselves ungrateful to the Word of God, who became flesh for them.”
1914 was the year that Jehovah throw Satan an his followers to the earth. And had know way back to the heavens because Jehovah took there wings away. And Jehovah gave Satan the earth to rule . Tell him gather up as meany soul you can because you a short period of time left.
Sorry, but that isn't found in the Bible. 1914 is a failed prophecy by your founder and first pope, CT Russell. Show me from the Bible where you got this and we can look at the context of the verses you use. Context is a killer for JW.
Seth asserts at the 19:30 timestamp that Christ's return will be a visible , bodily one. Over a 100 years ago this notion was already being rejected . Israel P. Warren writes : "The expression [in like manner /gr. hon tropon] occurs elsewhere in the New Testament four times, viz. Matt. 23 : 37; Luke 13 : 34 ; Acts T : 28 ; 2 Tim. 3 : 8. The first two instances may be regarded as identical. " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, -how often would I have gathered thy children together even as -hon tropon - a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, but ye would not ! " Now I submit to my readers whether our Saviour meant to say that he had longed to gather the wayward people of Jerusalem under his sheltering care, in an " identity of mode or manner " with that in which a hen broods over her chickens. Surely not. Undoubtedly more is meant than the simple certainty of the act ; it implies equal tenderness and faithfulness, but it does not imply an exact resemblance in the form of it. The next passage occurs in Stephen's rehearsal of the scene between Mosesand the Egyptianin the desert. " Wilt thou kill me as -hon tropon -thou didst the Egyptian yesterday?" Here again I ask, was the mind of the inquirer fixed on the mode of the apprehended killing, or on its certainty as a fact ? Was he solicitous to know whether it was to be done with staff or dagger,and the body buried in the sand, or simply whether it was to be done, without reference to manner ? The latter, most certainly. The force of the comparison rests in the anticipated repetition of the act, not its identity of form."
From The Parousia pgs. 62/63
I think we should trust God's angels before trusting Israel P. Warren and they told us Jesus would return "in the same way" as we "saw him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11). A visible departure = a visible return.
This bloke Israel P Warren, wrote things before the Motor Vehicle was being made.
Can you get some scholarship that is more recent.
Quoting a man who used a Horse and Buggy for his mode of transport who had never dreamed of owning a Motor Vehicle is a sign of desperation.
Christianity has many many scholars of recent times who have the latest up to date research on these matters.
My mode of transport doesn't defecate in front of me as I travel along the road.
Seriously. Get some modern scholarship. Not his Horse and Buggy style research.
@theologywithseth Respectfully, it is better that you did not say anything than embarrass yourself like this. Israel Warren quoted FOUR instances where the expression "in like manner" [ greek hon tropon] is used where it DOES NOT DESCRIBE the manner or way something was done as to be repeated. Words do not function exactly in all languages. You are just dogmatically applying a fundamentalist interpretation with no regard for how hon tropon is used idiomatically in greek. Refusing to engage even ONE example that Israel Warren cited and analysed in depth. This is disappointing. I am sure that the Christian community expects a higher level of engagement and analysis than this.
@@universalman5861 I, as a member of the Christian Community agree with Seth.
You have quoted 1 man who's no A T Robertson.
If you're honest, why don't you quote the hundreds and hundreds of Greek Scholars (who have an up to date knowledge of Koine Greek) instead you quote 1 single man out of hundreds of Koine Greek Scholars who got his education in the Horse and Buggy days.
This is not current scholarship.
Please list 10 Greek Scholars (who are current living scholars of Koine Greek) who agree with you.
Picking the Lone Ranger or Robinson Crusoe is showing your Dogmatism, Seth is drawing from 2000 years of Christian Scholars and relies on up to date scholarship for his views.
BTW please verify this Lone Ranger of yours from the Horse and Buggy era even is peer reviewed as a Koine Greek Scholar.
BTW again, this chap looks like he was a Trinitarian. Do you adhere to ALL of his other beliefs or are you just Cherry picking ?????
@@universalman5861 I've done some more digging. This bloke Israel Warren is not a Greek Scholar. He was a DD in the USA, that's a Honorary Degree, not a real degree.
This is your expert ??????????
He was qualified as a Pastor, not a Koine Greek Scholar
Here is an extract showing how he was unaware of current Koine Greek Research
Regarding the word Parousia
"The point is that, according to Deissmann, the technical sense embodies
both an arrival and a subsequent presence, with emphasis on "arrival."
This is in contrast with what Israel Warren wrote in 1879. Of course, the
discoveries that Deissmann wrote about had not been made in 1879, SO IT IS
CLEAR THAT WARREN'S COMMENTS ARE BASED ON INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE OF KOINE GREEK. AFTER ALL, IN 1879 THE PREVAILING WISDOM WAS THAT THE NT WAS WRITTEN IN AN IMAGINARY, SPECIAL "BIBLICAL GREEK."
Alan M Feuerbacher 31 Aug 1995
Please try harder and quote current scholarship. A Doctor of Divinity A Honorary Degree, not a real degree.
I believe in God the Father and Christ through whom God made all things. Holy Spirit is God and Christ in action
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Everyone has their feelings about GOD. I try to keep mine in line with the Bible. When you have God and Christ together, I feel there are Two Holy Spirits together.
Christ said My Father is greater than I and He said the Father and I are One. I feel this is they are in agreement between Father and Son. God is outside of this world. If you make an apple pie you're not in the pie; unless you cut your finger off.
Can you show me a trinity in John 1:1
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
You want to see the Trinity in John 1:1? Read it the same way Jesus read Psalm 110:1.
The Holy Spirit is a distinct person from the Father and the Son. This is clear from John 14 & 16.
Everything is wonderful until you start with man-made false doctrine of 'trinity'. God is not a person. He is ONE. Jesus IS God.
Are you a oneness, Jesus only, modalist, Sabellian... how do you define yourself?