As a witness for 40 of my 46 years before waking up. These videos are absolutely amazing! Just found the channel and have been listening to them back to back! It took years of study with different Bibles to convince myself of these truths. The watchtower can truly captivate your mind! I thank God for my wife, who was ahead of me in this regard!
@@brothersinarms5524 You we’re a witness for that long and yet still fall for these crafty lies? If you knew Jehovah, you knew the truth and will never be misled no matter what.
@@theologywithseth “this series blesses you.” Is that how God will bless anyone? You cannot even tell God’s name don’t you? Because you don’t really know Who he is or you knew Him but won’t admit it at all.
There is another often overlooked aspect of Daniel 10 in relation to Michael. Read Daniel 10:5-6 "I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz! His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude." Notice anything familiar with this description? If you said Revelation 1:13-15, you'd be correct. It says, "and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters". Now both of these descriptions are of Jesus, the first in a vision of his preincarnate state, the second in his risen. But the key to showing that Jesus is not Michael the Archangel. Further on in Daniel 10:13-14 when the One like the Son of Man says, "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come.” So, if Michael is the one that came to assist the One like the Son of Man, Michael can't be Jesus.
Seth, you stud. You champ. You unit. I’ve watched all your JW videos and they’ve already had unmentionable impact my interactions with Jehovah’s Witnesses and my own walk with Christ. Don’t ever stop, you glorious man of God, you. Whenever we meet up in heaven I’m gonna headbutt you, you absolute chad. Stay frosty.
I think this is probably the best comment I've ever received! Haha, thanks brother, I'm glad the series has been helpful! Looking forward to the headbutt in heaven lol
I was a JW for many years. I walked away about 20 years ago. I have been unable to bring myself to have fellowship with any other group/body of Christians, due to the depth of watchtower indoctrination (so basically, I have been isolated from worship with other Christians for over 20 years). The deity of Christ has been a very big block to me; along with the worship of Jesus. Over the last few years, I have prayed a lot about understanding the relationship between God and Jesus. Not too long after, during my regular Bible reading, in the book of Revelation, I came across a verse, and that verse was a lightbulb moment - Revelation 21:23: "The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp." Do you see how this has helped? I realised, God is the 'source' and Jesus the vessel; Jesus the physical means by which God interacted with humans. Then I started to recall many other verses, such as how no one can see God and yet live, etc etc. I then realised, by means of Jesus, God CAN have a presence with His creation. Jesus is the means by which God can deal with us. Would anyone like to say if my reasoning is correct on this point from Revelation 21:23? Ive had no such input really on these topics, for many years. I am on the verge of grasping this; but still, struggle to let go of what I have learned with watchtower; and thats 20 years after walking away. I also prayed, in receent years to find a group of believers to associate with; and I found a little church of only about 20-30 Christians. They have a caring group of elders; they appear to be very active in helping others and in sharing the gospel. So I decided to make a visit. First time ever I have done such a thing since leaving Watchtower land. I have really enjoyed visiting their services; all Bible based, with a joyful spirit; people I want to be with more often. BUT, after having attended their meetings for a couple of months, Ive now been absent for a couple of months. I said to one of the young men, that I am processing things mentally. But now I think its also because watchtower indoctrination is rearing its head; and the worshiping of Jesus situation has caught up with me. I know this must all sound very confusing; but I have started to realise, just how much the indoctrination of watchtower has really affected me. I want to get past this block and get back to this lovely little group. I want this niggle to disappear. Thank you to anyone who read through my expression here. Ps, a fine point you make, Seth, using Matthew 4:10, Hebrews 1:6 and Revelation 19:10 and proskuneo. Thing is, my heart has desired for so many years, to give to Jesus the full amount of what he deserves and not just the minimum as put forth by watchtower.
You need to watch the James White vs Stafford Greg debate. Fortunately, it is still right here on youtube. Stafford Greg is no longer a JW and is in the same position as you. In that debate Stafford demonstrated how the term proskeneo can still rightly apply to Jesus even with Jehovah being the "light source and Jesus the vessel". Put simply Jesus has been given the name above every other name; every knee in heaven and earth must bow and acknowledge him . Watchtower was doing OK until they set themselves up as THE faithful and discrete slave and started dictating laws to their adherents. The original Bible students were doing well in fellowship with seventh day Adventists until Russel came along and dubbed himself the faithful slave. Just find a prayer group that follow the lifestyle of the original Bible students. There are many
I feel the same after 35 years in i walked away 1.5 years ago and its so hard to get my head around things. Your comment has actually helped a lot. I too have no idea of where to go for fellowship.thankyou for your comment.
@@Brosk1111 Thanks for expressing your own experience. It really is a challenging journey to say the least. I often think about how Elijah was reassured during his running from Jezebel and Ahab. He felt very alone; yet, God revealed how there were still those 7000 who had not bent the knee to Ba'al. To me, it seems you have a similar desire. That takes courage. The Lord knows who are his own, even when we are in these periods of isolation. This is what helped me to realise, that a faithful follower of Christ can actually be found in any part of that world-wide field, holding their own, their faith, faithfully to God, through Jesus (Just like the 7000) The 7000, kept their faith despite the whole nation of Israel turning apostate. Similarly, I have come to believe, current faithful members of the body of Jesus, are to be found throughout Christianity, in its apostate condition. Revelation chapters 2 and 3 helped me with this thought, a lot. It helped me to consider my options in finding another group to share fellowship. So, when you consider how watchtower promotes its whiter than white outward appearance, a kind of bragging right that they have the truth, its actually not the description Jesus gives, regarding his congregation (as described in Revelation 2 and 3) I hope this makes some sense.
Also, another scripture that trips people up is when it says Jesus shall sit on the right hand of God. The right hand represents works or what God does. So God being a spirit uses Jesus to have fellowship with us his creation. When we see Jesus we see the Father. You and I also are spirits and the way we have fellowship with each other is with our bodies. So Jesus is God in human form. TC
It is absolutely clear in Scripture that Jesus is divine, the Holy Son of God. I don't understand how brainwashed these people can be. That said, Adventist believe the divine Holy Son of God is also Michael, the "leader of the angels" because of the Hebrew and Greek. Adventist just see it as another title Christ has. The JW denying Christ as God is disturbing.
I think it is just reasoning just like when we are first interested in God we reason that the biggest and oldest church must be the true church so many try the catholic church. They also reason that the KJB must be the best and only bible to read as it is the oldest and was the only bible available for a long time and God seemed to honour or approve of it, in it being so. This then relates to why many reason Christ can not be God because if He was it would be more obvious. I mean He would have not kept quite about it and not told others not to tell others that He was. I personally came to God but soon after I was faced with the question of who then was Christ? The more I read the more I saw the confusion of Christ as God. I fearfully came to that conclusion and was blessed above all as I had not been told or taught this by men but God Himself. I was and still am a little annoyed that this is never preached in any church I have attended.
@@americanswanYou can keep going with your own belief. Do not be disturbed by Jehovah’s Witnesses’ not calling Jesus Christ their God but rather take him as the son of God. Their God is Jehovah, the God and Father of Jesus. According to Christ himself:”His Father is also our Father and his God is also our God.”
@@theologywithseth It is most likely though that you are the ones suffering from your so-called spiritual blindness. It is very very clear that Jesus is the son of God. He has a God and Father. He further said that “my Father is also your Father and my God is also your God.”
Thanks for the beautiful reminder that our great one true living God loves us so much that he came himself...Immanuel, God with us. "But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough." - 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 May we stop putting man-made gods before the Lord our God!
I like your point where God is the one who personally comes to save us, rather than send some patsy to do the deed for him. I've used the same point myself, showing that any father would be the one taking action for his children. Another point I show in Jude is that in verse 4 Jesus is named our ONLY master and Lord. Then in verse 5 it's the Lord (our only Lord) who saved a people out of the land of Egypt. (Jesus) And then in verse 9 when Michael say's "the Lord rebuke you" he is obviously speaking of our ONLY Lord Jesus Christ. You can clearly see the distinction here between Michael and Jesus. Case closed.
Unfortunately, in verses 5 and 9 of the NWT (JW Bible) they change the word Lord to 'Jehovah' to make it seem like it's not talking about Jesus. Their interlinear says Lord but they will still have a hard time believing it is talking about Jesus because of their actual translation saying Jehovah. As someone who was a born-in JW, we really believed our translation was the most accurate. 🤦♀️ After God started waking me up, and after much prayer and being willing to consider that I might be wrong, it was the passages in Hebrews 1 and 2 and the passage in Daniel 10 when compared to the passage describing Jesus in Revelation that convinced me Jesus was not Michael/an angel. As a believing JW I had no idea the Bible said He wasn't an angel. And it was seeing the oldest pictograph form of the divine name YHWH in Hebrew, along with learning that each Hebrew letter is actually a word, that convinced me Jesus was God. (Because when you look at it in Hebrew, the divine name they love so much is undoubtedly about Jesus.)
@@alishaba- I was a "born in" JW for 60 years. Now I'm a "born again" Christian who loves my Lord Jesus Christ. I 'm so happy to hear that when you left, you didn't lose your faith in God, like so many do. God Bless
The god of the watchtower is a coward , he created an angel to do the dirty work. So in watchtower theology God sacrificed nothing of himself, Michael didn’t lose anything but gained . Neither one sacrificed anything.
Consider how ridiculous the JW claim about Michael is. JWs claim: 1. Jehovah created Michael the archangel, a demigod who creates everything on behalf of Jehovah (contrary to Isa 44:24 & 45:12). 2. Jehovah annihilated Michael. 3. Jehovah created the human Jesus (who has no correspondence with Michael. There was no incarnation of Michael, rather, at some point Michael ceased to exist and Jesus was created. So why did Michael have to be annihilated? I do not know, do you? This belief also contradicts the Gospel’s account that Jesus “came down from heaven”). 4. Jesus lived, died, and ceased to exist. 5. Jesus 2.0 is created (which JWs call resurrection, but is not the same as the Jewish/Christian concept of resurrection). 6. Jesus 2.0 (another human Jesus) hung out with the disciples for 40 days and then … what? JWs aren’t really sure on this point. 7. Jesus 2.0 ceased to exist somehow and Jesus 3.0 (a spirit creature) began, who is also called Michael (even though the Bible never makes that connection, and actually shows Michael and Jesus are separate entities; cf. Jude). 8. Heb 2:5 says that God did not put the world to come under the control of angels, rather, the writer says, God has placed the control of the world to come in the hands of Jesus, a human (and God). Yet, this must be a different Jesus than Jesus/Michael 3.0 since Jesus/Michael 3.0 is an angel, according to JW theology. So JWs must believe that Jesus/Michael 3.0 will cease to exist at some point and Jesus 4.0 will be created. So when does that happen? This is just one more teaching of JWs that they accept without any semblance of critical thinking and they do so because men in NY tell them to believe it, in the same way they have been told they must believe that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BC (instead of 586/7 BC as ALL scholars affirm) and that they must believe that Jesus died on a "torture stake" and not a cross (even though ALL the evidence is on the side of cross).
Those are some excellent observations! I do find it interesting that JW's will endlessly ridicule the doctrine of the Trinity and Incarnation, but it seems like they never really stop to consider how bizarre their own theology sounds to non-JW's. I think they'd be surprised by how differently the Bible reads if they'd just read it on its own without all the Watchtower magazines. As always, thanks for your detailed comments!
@@theologywithseth Thanks, Seth. I agree with you. If JWs would read the Bible without JW commentary, they would come to a very different conclusion about who Jesus is than what the GB tell them.
1. if Jesus was the first angel created in heaven, he may have seen everything god created and may have seen every step of creation, through him every thing was created. 2+3. going from one entity to another whom says you need to destroy Michael the angel for this? if Jesus was god, did god have to destroy him self? It can be he lost his memory when he was Jesus. 4. Jesus was in a sleep if he was dead. That is what he said about people that where dead. 7. if Jesus is not god then for him to be the first angel to be created gives answers to alot of bible text about him, it fits. 8. Jesus is one angel if he is Michael who has control?, but Hebr 2:5 can talk about the fallen angels. but who says Jesus does not listen to god, who is above an Angel?
@@Cas-s2y 1. Let me get this straight, you do not think that Jesus is the agent of creation, correct? 2-3. Christians believe in the incarnation. This means we believe that Jesus added to himself a human nature, called (in theology) the hypostatic union. Do you believe Jesus was both angel and human, either fully, in the way Christians believe Jesus is fully God and fully human, or partially, in the way that Herculies was part human and part god? 4. Sleep is a euphemism for death but that doesn’t mean they are not conscous (cf. Luke 19; Rev 6:9). 7. You didn’t address my point. 8. You didn’t address my point. Heb 2 says the world to come has been placed in the control of a human (Jesus). JWs claim that Jesus is not currently a human, which means they either have to ignore this text or say that Jesus will be made human again in the future.
@@BasicBiblicalTruth Your reasoning about why Jesus can not be an angel is causing some problems for your self. Because you should apply te same logic to Jesus if he was god and he was created and died etc.
There is complete scriptural evidence that Jesus is not Michael, and I find it very exciting because its as though God knew people would get weird with him. If you look at Revelation 1:12-18 (And I'll even use the NWT) I turned to see who was speaking with me, and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man clothed in a garment that reached down to the feet and wearing a golden sash around his chest. 14 Moreover, his head and his hair were white as white wool, as snow, and his eyes were like a fiery flame 15 and his feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars and out of his mouth a sharp, long, two-edged sword was protruding, and his countenance* was like the sun when it shines at its brightest 17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, l 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave. We know this is Jesus because He says he became dead and then in Daniel 10:4-13, it is a mirrored replica. Daniel Sees Jesus Daniel 5-6 I looked up and saw a man clothed in linen,e and around his waist was a belt of gold from Uʹphaz. 6 His body was like chrysʹo·lite,f his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like fiery torches, his arms and his feet looked like burnished copper and the sound of his words was like the sound of a multitude And then continued in Daniel 10:13 the man is speaking and says: But the prince of the royal realm of Persia stood in opposition to me for 21 days. But then Michael, one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I remained there beside the kings of Persia. So Michael helped Jesus fight off the prince of Persia.
Mark 14:62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.❤🙏✝️
0:13 My comment the term archangel is never used in the Old testament. I would answer Jehovah witness. Where did Paul and Jude get to term archangel from? not from the Old testament , but from second temple Material. which in it there is seven archangels not one. That's where they got the term archangel from. Jw's believe there's only one archangel
@vill7777 Thank you for sharing that! Even in the Bible Michael is just "one among many" (Daniel 10:13) so that's not surprising at all. God bless you!
Whenever Jehovahs Witnesses use 1 Thessalonisns 4 to prove Jesus is an Angel I take them Revelation chapter 1 verse 15 where John describes Jesus voice as the voice of many waters. I then take them to Ezekiel chapter 43 verse 2 where it describes Jehovah the God of Israel voice as the voice of Many waters. I then ask the question if Jesus has the audible voice of the Archangel in 1 Thessalonisns 4 and John said that voice sounds like many waters please explain why does Your Archangel Michael/Jesus have the same Audible voice as the God of Israel,?? in Ezekiel 43.. When I ask them that question they stare at me like a deer in headlights..And they don't have the answer and say can I get back with you
Talking to the Pharasees Jesus said before Abraham was "I AM". The tetragramaton YHWH the unpronouncable name of God. For this reason Caiaphas rent his robe calling Jesus a blasphemer because He called Himself God. Titus 2: 13 ...our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Thomas when seeing the resurrected Jesus called Him "My Lord and My God".
Great video Seth, Russell and the early Watchtower didn't believe Jesus was Michael the Archangel. Also they believed Jesus was worshipped At one time the Watchtower also believed Michael the Archangel was the Pope of Rome. “‘Let all the angels of God worship him’ [that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God].” WT 11/1879, p. 48” “Michael in Revelation 12:7 is the pope of Rome.STUDIES, Vol. 7, p. 188”
Thank you @RowanTasmanian! That's a great point. It's amazing how often The Watchtower changes their official doctrine throughout their relatively short history. Thank you for sharing!
@@theologywithseth G'day Seth, you are doing a fantastic Job and your apologetics are first rate. Your ministry is so important to these people and if there is any help you require ie Research of WT articles, please let me know. I have been in this ministry for over 40 years and am from the Walter Martin era of Apologetics to the cults. I've never been in a cult, but was raised as a Baptist in rural Tasmania. Anyway God bless you and your ministry.
Michael is an angel. Jesus is God. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, He has always existed. Michael and all angels were created by God. Jesus is the only one we worship 🙏 Not Michael. Jesus is God, Jesus said "I and the Father are one." Michael is NOT God, not Jesus. Jesus is NOT an angel. Jesus is God who rules over ALL angels.
Also in regard to 1 Thessalonians 4:16. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" If a JW believes that this verse is substantial evidence that Jesus is the Archangel Michael because He will come with an Archangels voice, then by using the same logic, then *Jesus is God, because He will come with God's trumpet*/shofar
JESUS is not the true God, but he is the only begotten Son of JEHOVAH GOD his Father and God.JESUS in his prehuman life was the first created angel in heavens known as Michael the Archangel and this is the angel that JEHOVAH GOD sent on this Earth to become JESUS CHRIST and to die for all mankind as a ransom sacrifice for our sins.The flesh and blood JESUS CHRIST as we know him here on this Earth did not exist in heavens, he was only living for 33years on this Earth.And now that he is back in heavens, he is back to what he was before coming to this Earth a spirit person, an angel known as Michael the Archangel sitting next to his Father and God JEHOVAH.
@@nikolapejcinovski5990 Sorry dude I'm not going to bite and start a dialogue about this with you here. You must be mentally challenged, because you apparently are incapable of understanding the content of this video.
@@nikolapejcinovski5990 if Jesus is not The true God , then that makes Him one of the false gods . And what you JW most know is that through out the OT JEHOVAH our GOD in many passages says that He is the only God they must not worship other gods than Him . Knowing that the Jews are stricly monotheist the Idea of another God is totally unacceptable .
It’s difficult to compare the two, a trumpet often symbolically proclaims Gods judgments or other events of divine origin. Trumpets were used for various reasons. In the case of “the archangels voice” it’s always singular in the 2 times it’s mentioned in Jude and 1 Thes 4:16. Michael is the only one called archangel with the power to resurrect the dead which shows authority. What lesser angel has the authority to resurrect the dead? (John 5:25)
Hello my brother, thank you for sharing, I have examined concerning worshipping Jesus, I collect all scriptures , I found out that those who worship Jesus they worship Him as Lord (Master) and also King, his God is the only one worshipped as God and creator. Collect the scripture you will see, may God bless
Not according to the apostle Paul at 1 Corinthians 6: 8, who changed my mind as a former trinitarian. Paul eliminates any idea of a muti- personal God, when he teaches us clearly: " Actually to us there is one God the Father..." 1 Corinthians 8: 6. Isaiah 42: 1 teaches me that the holy spirit belongs to Almighty God. Jesus was God's chosen servant, who received it from his own source of life....his one true God .....the only true God, whom Jesus said:" I live because of the father. " Praised be the God and Father of our lord Jesus Christ -2 Corinthians 1: 3. Yes, this Jesus, God made both lord and Christ. - Acts 2: 36.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. By your logic since Jesus is the only Lord, then the Father is not Lord ! Yet the Father is also Lord ! This means that the Father being God doesn't exclude Jesus from being God, since Jesus being the one Lord doesn't exclude the Father from being also Lord. He and the Father are one by nature ! They and the Holy Spirit are all together the one true God and the only Lord. That verse perfectly fits in the doctrine of the Trinity.
God created us in His image….His similitude (Gen 1:26 ; James 3:9) We are spirit , soul and body….just as God (1 Thess 5:23 ; Isa 42:1) The Word is capable of separating His parts (Heb 4:12) How’d he have two wills or talk to himself…. We do the same just as Paul did. We want to do good but we fight against our flesh and spirit everyday in this life. (Rom 7:14-25) Once you see it then you’ll see it everywhere…. My soul delighteth …it pleases my soul
Psa 47:5 God has ascended with a shout, The LORD [Jehovah] , with the sound of a trumpet. 1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.
Fun video. I'm not a JW but I still wonder about one of the claims you made. It's about authority. You pointed out Michael did not have authority, but Jesus did. Except Jesus said that he was given authority.. That seems to imply he did not always have authority. If he was given authority, that means that at some point in time he existed without authority.
Maybe because Jesus had emptied himself when he took the form of a human? "No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human." Philippians 2:7 (NWT)
Jesus Christ did not exist eternally as a human body but indeed did exist eternally as the Son of God through whom all things were made and without Him nothing was made that has been made. How could Jesus create the entire universe (from every single atom to every single star/galaxy) and then be born as a human that had to learn to talk and walk and develop like all of us? The Son of God humbled himself into human existence, and be glad for it because He did it to forgive us for our sins❤️ Him being born a Jew (a human having a God) and having been given authority does not in any way make him any less very God.
That verse got a much deeper meaning... M a tthew 28:17-19 N A S B1995 [17] When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. [18] And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [19] Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, They worshipped Him, to those who didn't He said ALL POWER in heaven and on earth was given to Him, that means He doesn't share His power. This is why Jesus said the Father judge no one, all judgement is given to Him that we honor (value) Him just as we honor (value) the Father. Same Yehovah.
Question: What does "...if you receive a different spirit from the one you received" even mean? This sentence (fragment) doesn't make sense, even with the surrounding context.
Hey! JW here, again. 1Thess 4:16 The counterargument in the video is not good. It takes a logically incoherent notion (Jesus comes with a Trumpet so he is a Trumpet) and pretends it has bearing on a logically possible one (Jesus is Archangel Michael). So that is just a non-sequiter. It doesn't follow that if he can't be a trumpet therefore he also can't be Michael. I hope Trinitarians can see this is a silly argument and stop using it. (I've heard Mike Winger and others use it to, so don't feel bad. Just stop) And 1 Thess 4 should be used in combination with John 5 and Daniel 12:1-3. All three talk about end times, judgment and resurrection of the dead. Christ doubles down on _voice_ saying it will be his own that is heard. (John 5:25, 28) Paul says the voice is an Archangels! (The greek of the text can be read epexegetically so that the three clauses "shout" "Archangels voice" and "Trumpet of God" are three ways of describing the same audible attributed to "the Lord himself". Reading Paul any other way has him contradicting or ignoring the emphasis that Christ puts on his own voice being heard. Finally Daniel 12 has Michael "stand up" which would've been understood grammtically and contextually as not only a military defense but as advocate in a judicial setting. (See Zech 3:1-3 and Psalm 82) As an _advocate_ he would use his voice. So John 5, Christ claims to be Michael of Dan 12 and Paul confirms this interpretation.
JW leadership do not appeal to John 5 and Daniel 12 because they recognize the problems with doing so. Daniel 12 is fulfilled in Rev 12:7. Michael stands up to fight on behalf of God's people. The text says nothing about Michael being involved in the resurrection. John 5 says that the dead will hear the voice of the Son of Man and will live. This begins with salvation and finds its culmination in the resurrection of the Body. There is no conflict with Paul's statement that Jehovah Jesus' coming will be heralded by an archangel and with the blast of a trumpet because Paul doesn't give us a full account of the events that will take place (i.e., he doesn't mention the angels [Mat 24:31] or the saints [i.e., the righteous dead; 1Thes 3:13] that will accompany Jesus). Paul focuses on the fact that Jehovah Jesus will come himself and not a representative, his coming will be announced with the blowing of a trumpet and the shout (voice) of a high-ranking angel. The Greek of the text in 1Thes 4:16 presents the possibility of two options: 1) there are three sounds (i.e., a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet of God), or 2) there are two sounds (i.e., a shout that is expressed by the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God). Paul is alluding Psalm 47 where Jehovah God (Jesus) ascends to sit on his throne as King of kings and Lord of lords. The scene is that of an emperor coming to a city. He is preceded by the cry of a high-ranking official and the blast of a trumpet-imagery the Thessalonians would have immediately understood. (It's also possible that Paul is alluding to the Apocalypse of Moses where Moses. In this story, the archangel Michael proceeds the Lord with a shout and blowing of the trumpet, announcing the coming of the Lord to earth (where he was going to judge Adam and Eve). _AFTER_ being preceded by the archangel Michael, who blows the trumpet and shouts his announcement, _THEN_ the Lord calls to Adam.) However, I think Paul is primarily alluding to the imagery from Psalm 47 and says that when Jehovah Jesus descends to earth, he will be preceded by the shout of an archangel (possibly Michael) and the blast of a trumpet (cf. 1Co 15:52). The shout of the archangel is a command for people to respond. The command (κελεύσματι) is in apposition to ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι Θεοῦ (the voice of an archangel and God’s trumpet). In other words, this command is expressed in the shout of an archangel and the blowing of a trumpet. The loyal subjects of the King (Jehovah Jesus) come out of the city to receive their King (“meet the Lord in the air”), and they respond to the initiation of the high official (archangel) with their own shouts as they receive their King (cf. Psalm 47). Nowhere in this verse is Jesus identified as an archangel, let alone the archangel Michael (ps. there is more than one archangel-Dan 10:13). The archangel acts like the Sergeant at Arms walking into the House of Representatives and loudly proclaiming, "MR. SPEAKER, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES." The Sergeant at Arms announces the coming of the President, just as the archangel announces the coming of someone monumentally greater than the President of the United States-the King of kings, and Lord of lords. This imagery would be readily understood by 1st-century ears since this is how visiting dignitaries were introduced to cities. Jesus said, “Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” (Matt. 24:30-31 ESV). Angels will be present with Jesus. 1Thes 4:16 only mentions one particular angel among the many, the archangel who announces the coming King-Jehovah Jesus.
@BasicBiblicalTruth 1)Dan 12 & Rev 12:7 Your idea here doesn't erase the connections of John 5, 1 Thess 4, 5 and Dan 7, 12. So deal with these texts, don't use Revelation as a redherring 2) John 5 The King clearly doubles down that it's his own voice (5:25, 28). For Paul to interject a _different_ voice obviously contradicts OR as I said elsewhere, _ignores_ the king's emphasis. Also, Paul does mention angels: the trumpet is associated with angels (Matt 24:30; Apoc. Mo. 22:1-3) and an Archangel commands and leads angels! So you're just ignoring what an ancient Jewish audience would not ignore. (And the "saints" of 1 Thess 3:13 is "holy ones" which is another term for angels) 3) Third Possibility I explained elsewhere, and you've dishonestly left it out. The Greek could be an epexegesis, three ways to refer to one sound. The "shout", the "Archangels voice," and the "Trumpet of God" all refer to the same audible which Paul attributes to "the Lord himself". (Follows John 5 in only one voice is heard and Rev 1:10 where John says Christ voice is as a Trumpet 4) Ps 47 I acknowledged elsewhere that Ps 47 maybe another background for Paul. Even if true, it doesn't erase the connections of Daniel 7, 12 and John 5. After looking at Psalm 47 closer it's less plausible. It describes a different period altogether! This isn't the war of the eschaton, it looks like a celebration after the war. Your "emperor coming to city" analogy fails because you have pomp and pageantry but John 5, Dan 12 and 1 Thess 4,5 have hard times and peril! I completely refuted this comparison by explaining that in these "King Returns for war" texts only the leader is individualized. A lone hero is single out in the forefront and his army pluralized in the background. Your analogy is for Ed McMahon introducing Johnny Carson not the biblical context. (I gave Matt 13:41, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31 and etc. You ignored the biblical pattern and repeated your old refuted points) Stop ✋️ ⏹️
Dan 12 doesn't advance your argument. Linking it with Rev 12 is consistent with what your leaders see in the text. John 5 doesn't mention angels being present with him. Does that mean he contradicts himself in Mat 24? No, he simply isn't giving all the details. Paul doesn't give all the details either. He mentions 3 elements: the personal descent of Jehovah Jesus, the trumpet blast, and the call of the archangel. ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ. Now, you don't know Greek. You've acknowledged this. In this verse, if και had come after ἐν κελεύσματι, then the command, trumpet, and voice of the archangel could be the same thing. However, the way the verse is written presents two ways of viewing this verse, which I have already stated in a previous post. You must confess that Jesus is Michael because that's the "new light" your leaders claim to have gotten and you must believe what they tell you. Thus, you are forced to make a connection that isn't there.
@@BasicBiblicalTruth 1)Dan 12 Yes, it _is_ the argument. The links are there. Paul and Jesus are both borrowing from Dan 7, 12 2) "John 5 doesn't mention angel" Again, playing obtuse. My point is: At John 5 the King explicitly highlights his own voice making it an IMPERATIVE part of the event!! Repeat, the King, in a short span doubles down on his own voice using "Son of man" language from Dan 7. An absence of angel's in John 5 vs Matthew 24 is nothing like ignoring a doubtlet and REPLACING IT with a different voice!! (See God's own emphasis on the Angels voice at Ex 23:21,22. Imagine Joshua saying Moses hearkened to a Prophet in a recounting of that same event??) 3) I don't have to know Greek. I gave an argument from those who do. The kai joins the second and third clauses which lends itself to an epexegesis. "Shout" has no qualifying genitive so the two joined clauses could be read as elaborations on that same audible! That's the argument. You, giving an alternative, doesn't dismiss it. Not at all
@@BasicBiblicalTruth ..why are you so dogmatically insistent on reading Paul as diverging from Christ?? You have no basis in the Greek! You dishonestly left it out as a possibility even though Leon Morris puts it in a footnote as a _possible_ reading?
1 Thess 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first Here it links Arch Angel to Christ!
@@theologywithseth you cant deny that scripture. It says the Lord will call like an archangels voice. Jesus can take on many roles just as he is the destroyer in revelation. You have no idea who Jesus is lol you may need to re educate urself.
"For us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist." 1Cor 8:5 Jesus prayed to his FATHER, "Not MY will but YOUR will." Lk 22:42 Jesus learned OBEDIENCE TO HIS FATHER. Heb 5:8 Jesus is not Almighty God, his Father is. All things, including the other sons of God were created thru Jesus. This is how Jesus is God's only begotten Son, the Firstborn of all creation. Jesus is not the created archangel Michael who was created through Jesus. Almighty God, the Father said: This is my SON...Mt. 3
In 1Cor 8:6, Paul takes the Shema from the LXX (the same that Jesus quoted from in Mark 12:29) and applies it to BOTH the Father and the Son. The Shema, from Deuteronomy 6:4 LXX is, Ἄκουε, Ισραηλ· κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν κύριος εἷς ἐστιν· ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord (κύριος) our God (θεός), the Lord (κύριος) is one.’ In 1Corinthians 8:6, Paul Christianizes the Jewish Shema by glossing the title “God” (θεός) to the Father and Lord (κύριος) to the Son. As David Garland says, “The creedal statement καὶ ὅτι οὐδεὶς θεὸς εἰ μὴ εἷς (kai hoti oudeis theos ei mē heis, that no God [exists] except one) echoes the basic Jewish confession in the Shema (Deut. 6:4; 4:35, 39; Isa. 44:8; 45:5).... The dismissive phrase ‘the so-called gods’ (λεγόμενοι θεοί, legomenoi theoi; cf. 2 Thess. 2:4) defers to popular parlance that identifies them as gods, but it insinuates that it is wrong…. Paul creatively christianizes the foundational Jewish monotheistic confession: ‘The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). He glosses the reference to Lord and God in that confession so that ‘God’ refers to the Father and ‘the Lord’ refers to Christ.”[1] And as Gordon Fee says, “Although Paul does not here call Christ God, the formula is so constructed that only the most obdurate would deny its Trinitarian implications. In the same breath that he can assert that there is only one God, he equally asserts that the designation ‘Lord,’ which in the Greek OT was used to replace the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) and thus belongs singularly to the one God, is the proper designation of the divine Son.” JWs make several errors: 1) they ignore the context, 2) they ignore the fact that Paul is citing the Shema and Christianizing it, 3) they ignore the fact that Kurios is used for the tetragrammaton, and 4) they are inconsistent. If Jesus can’t be God because Paul says that the Father is the Christian God, then the Father can’t be Kurios because Paul says Jesus is the Christian Kurios. Which would mean that the Father is a different God than the OT God. When read in context, this passage is a powerful proclamation that Jesus is Jehovah, the second person of the triune God. [1] David E. Garland, 1 Corinthians (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 2003), ePub, 8:4-6. [2] Gordon D. Fee, The First Epistle to the Corinthians, Revised (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2014), ePub, 8:6
@@universalman5861 Thanks for proving my point. PS. The OT use of "sovereign Lord" is in relation to the one being of God, not in regard to one of the persons of the Godhead.
The persons of the Godhead are not identified until the NT. Actually, they are identified between the OT and NT in the incarnation of the Son and the sending of the Spirit, but we are only made aware of it in the NT. The NT identifies Jesus as Jehovah, the second person of the triune God, by taking OT Jehovah passages and applying them to Jesus: Mar 1:2-3 (citing Isa 40:3 & Mal 3:1), Rom 10:13 (citing Joel 2:32), Phi 2:10-11 (citing Isa 45:23), 2Thes 1:9 (citing Isa 2:10), Heb 1:10-12 (citing Psa 102:25-27), 1Pe 2:3 (Psa 34:8), 3:14-15 (Isa 8:12-13).
@@BasicBiblicalTruth High Priest Joshua is Melchizedek, Michael, High Priest of Heaven. There was a high priest called Joshua though. That part is Jesus
Zechariah 3 is a courtroom scene among the divine counsel. Satan and Joshua stand before the judge-the angel of YHWH, who is identified as YHWH in v. 2. Satan acts as the prosecuting attorney (cf. Job 1:6), and is poised to accuse Joshua for his filthy clothes which symbolize guilt and sin. Just as Satan stood before YHWH in the presence of the divine counsel to accuse Job (Job 2:1), so now he stands before YHWH to accuse Joshua. YHWH then appeals to YHWH to rebuke Satan because Joshua and Jerusalem have been chosen by YHWH, showing a distinction of persons within YHWH. The angel of YHWH (who is YHWH) then commands his attending angels who are standing by to remove the Joshua’s filthy clothes. These attending angels who stand before YHWH are common in these types of visions (cf. 1Ki 22:19). Then the angel says something that only YHWH can say in v. 4, “I have freely forgiven your iniquity” (NET). This oscillation between this figure being called the angel of YHWH and YHWH, and appealing to YHWH to rebuke and then forgiving sins himself, shows this figure is both YHWH and distinct from YHWH, which the NT reveals to be the plurality of persons in the one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Michael is not mentioned in this text nor is he identified as Jesus anywhere in the Bible. [1] _The New English Translation with Strong’s (NET),_ Second (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 2019), Zechariah 3:2n3.
Keep it simple. PART 1. GOD, THE MEDIATOR, AND MEN If the Bible is the Word of God, He can speak for Himself. Let the Bible speak for the Bible. I TIMOTHY 2:5 '''FOR THERE IS ONE GOD, AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, A MAN, JESUS CHRIST.''' GALATIANS 3:20. ''' NOW, THERE IS NO MEDIATOR WHEN JUST ONE PERSON IS INVOLVED, BUT GOD IS ONLY ONE.''' Impossible for Jesus to be God if he is the only mediator. PART 2. MICHAEL the ARK ANGEL Only God and angels live in Heaven. Nobody else. Nothing Else. If Jesus is not God according to the two Scriptures on the mediator above, and Jesus is in heaven, he can only be an Angel. Angels have names. So would Jesus have a name. Jehovah always changes names for different roles. Like Abram's name Jehovah changed to Abraham; Sarai's name He changed to Sarah; And Jacob's name He changed to Israel. etc etc This time their names come chosen directly from Jehovah, for some reason. So Jehovah also changed Michael the Ark Angel's name in heaven, to the name "Jesus" on earth. Why? The name "Jesus" is the English translation of his original Hebrew name "Yeshua,' which means ''Saviour." Jesus does not have to be called "saviour" in heaven, only a saviour on earth. So in heaven Jesus name is Michael, meaning "who is like God." With Jehovah, everything falls in place. PART 3. RESURRECTION Only God and angels live in heaven. Jesus was the first who was resurrected from the dead to go to heaven. REVELATION 1:5 There are 9 accounts of the resurrection, including Jesus. Only Jesus ascended to heaven. The rest were resurrected from death,on earth, and died again. They never ascended to heaven like Jesus did or we would have heard of it. No resurrected ones are in heaven (yet). No good people who died has resurrected to heaven (yet) Jesus said the grand resurrection will only happen in the last days. JOHN 6:40, 44, 54; JOHN 11:24 JOHN 5:28-29 King David lived and died 1,000 years before Jesus was born. David was a special man to Jehovah. Jehovah loved him. Many times Jesus was even called the "Son of David." MATTHEW 1:1, MATTHEW 9:27; 12:23; 15:22; 20:30; 21:9; 21:15 But according to ACTS 2:34 David is not in heaven. If all good people go to heaven when they die, and there is nothing better to be than be in heaven, why did Jesus resurrect good people who died back to earth, when they could have been in heaven already?
Christ isn't an angel. He is certainly not Michael, as JWs teach. NO angel would ever make the self-declaration that Christ makes for Himself in John 12:45 NO angel would ever tell people to believe in it the same as they do in God. But Christ does just that in John 14:1. NO angel would ever make the self-declaration Christ makes for Himself in John 14:7-9. Michael would DEFINITELY NOT ever make these declarations. His name means "Who Is Like God?" Obvious answer: NO ONE. If Michael had made those declarations, he would be going against the meaning of his own name and committing blasphemy. NO angel would ever receive for itself the declaration of Thomas in John 20:28. NO angel has the same nature as God, as Paul states Christ does in Philippians 2:6. In NO angel does all the fullness of God reside, as Paul states in Colossians 2:9. As for "Mediator" - JWs teach that Christ is Mediator ONLY for the 144,000. Here is the proof: "So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians." Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31 "Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members." Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" (1986) pp.10-11
I just have a question - why is God called "father" and Jesus "son". Without a father first, there is no son. This is not going into my head. Maybe I am just too stupid.
The Father/Son language is anthropomorphic language that is used to communicate how the Godhead interacts with itself. In the ANE, brother gods were rivals (cf. Egyptian gods Osiris and Set), so how could one send the other? Male/female or husband/wife gods always involved a sexual aspect to the relationship (cf. Egyptian gods Geb and Nut). Not to mention they were often dualistic. A Father/Son relationship tells us that they are equal as to nature, there is a functional hierarchical aspect to the relationship, it is a loving but non-sexual relationship, and honouring one is to honour the other. A son in the ANE had the same authority as the Father (Joh 5:18), could rule as co-regent (David-Solomon), and was owner of everything that was the fathers (Luk 15:31). A Father/Son relationship is the perfect way to communicate the relationship between the two persons of the Godhead. But don't push the anthropomorphic language beyond the bounds of what the text intends it to communicate. A father sires a son through coitus, and this is certainly not the case with the Christian God. Likewise, this language is not intended to infer that there was a time when the Son was not. There was never a time when the Father was not "Father" because there was never a time when he was without the Son. Hope this helps.
How about instead of trying to prove who is right just move on . Quit finger pointing . Christians say trinity trinity all the time and it’s never mentioned in the Bible . JW get a bad rap . And tons of no. Truth about they print their own Bible (not ) they publish new English standard study Bible . So how about move on and stop pointing fingers
The angel in Revelation1 and Daniel 10 is same. Its gabriel. Because gematria of angel gabriel is same as “the many waters” So complex,, but everything is easy when you think the Christianity is a lie
At the 4:30 timestamp, Seth asserts that Jesus having an archangels voice is an ACCOMPANYING element and not an IDENTIFYING element. It is similar to Jesus coming with God's trumpet. Unfortunately for Seth, I can CARRY a trumpet. Can I carry someone else's voice? Jesus said that his sheep knows his VOICE. Does this not mean that Jesus is IDENTIFEIED by his voice. John 5:28 says that the hour is coming when all in the Grave shall hear Jesus' voice. If Jesus is not IDENTIFIED by his voice then the dead will not be able to respond to it. Secondly, at the 7:30 timestamp, Seth claims that we can be looking at two different commanders leading two separate battalions. The notion of different commanders leading the heavenly forces is belied by Revelation 19:14"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." There is only ONE commanders of the heavenly army...Micheal the Archangel. I AM NOT A JEHOVAH'S WITNESS. However, Seth his misrepresented their position. The MAIN reason why JW's believe that Jesus is Michael is simply because Micheal is responsible for casting Satan out of heaven. No ordinary celestial being can accomplish this feat. That Micheal can do this means that Michael is even STRONGER that Satan. Finally lets reflect on Jesus' nature and WHEN this verse is fulfilled. Lets say Jesus is not Micheal the archangel. He is Yahweh, since "he and the father is one". He is God Almighty since Jesus is simply "Yahweh of the old testament" . If all this is correct then that trumpet in 1Thessalonians is actually JESUS' trumpet since he is God. Why didnt the verse simply state that Jesus would come with HIS trumpet?? Why does Paul write this verse making a distinction between Jesus and God, when Jesus 'is' God? Why the consistent distinction between 'the Lord' and 'God' when they are the same person? ( And why is the Holy Spirit always left out and never takes a personal name... after all how personal is the name 'Holy Spirit'?) Above all else, why would the 'omniscient' Almighty, who is incomparable to any of his creations, inspire his servant to write a verse that not simply COMPARES his voice to that of a created being (an archangel), but actually says that the Almighty Sovereign of the universe speaks with the voice of a vastly inferior being. Additionally, in the Old Testament, when Yahweh speaks vis voice back then was like thunder, so much so that the Isrealites begged Moses to act as Yahweh's spokesman since they were so scared of his voice. Could a mere archangel's voice be compared to Yahweh's voice at Exodus???
"Could a mere archangel's voice be compared to Yahweh's voice at Exodus???" How about the three angels being representative of Yahweh at Mamre? Genesis 18
@bourbon_sketcher In case you didn't realise, I do not need to have anything in common to represent someone. A lawyer can represent an injured woman before a judge; does that mean that he has any characteristics of a woman?
JW's did not invent this teaching. Referring to the Geneva Bible of 1500, all notes in Daniel, Jude, and Rev refer to Michael the Archangel, who is identified as Jesus. In Matthew Henery's complete commentary, he also called Michael the pre-incarnate Jesus.
JWs are seed pickers. Their entire religion is pieces picked from multiple groups. For instance, their teaching that people cease to exist at death comes from the Sadducees. Now, the question isn't, Where did they obtain this particular teaching, but, Is this teaching right? The answer is, No. Tell me, who is the only person explicitly identified (multiple times) as Kurios in Jude?
True, but their beliefs were very different than the JW doctrine. They were all Trinitarians who believed in the full Deity of Christ, so when they said Jesus was Michael, they simply saw Michael as another name for Jesus- the eternal, uncreated, Second Person of the Trinity. If they were alive today, they'd repudiate the Watchtower doctrine just as strongly as anyone else, so there's really no point in quoting them in this particular debate.
Jesus is the I AM. If He is not God ,then your sins are not forgiven. Jesus will be given a New name at the end of the chapter. Only God can forgive sins!
If you read the bible it can appear like Jesus is god. But the word trinity is not in the bible.. In the bible it says Jesus is the word and the word was god.. you can also translate to the word was a god. the problem is that in old Greek is does not have the word 'a' in their language. Also Jesus is called mighty god but it is also listed with other titles (atleast if this bible text talks about jesus, but looks like it is about the messiah), if he was the first born of creation it can be normal he gets titles that are close to god, he has a relationship with god, like all people have on earth, every one has a father. That can be a reason he is called the son of god. Not only the son. The problem with Jesus being God is, that you have to reason that Jesus and god are different and the same. Jesus was praying to god to not send him to die. he said i do your will to god. If he is the same, it has no purpose? Also a voice came from heaven when he got baptised. And many bible text say he sits on the right side of god in heaven.
in Romans 10:13. Paul is citing Joel 2:32, a passage about Jehovah, and he directly applies it to Christ - thus calling Christ GOD. Anyone can look this up on their own very easily. Honest readers understand that that is precisely what Paul is declaring there. In verses 9, 12, and 13, "Lord" is a translation of the Greek word kyrios, and verse 9 clearly associates "Lord" with Jesus. The same association continues in verses 12 and 13. However - Verse 13 is a quote of Joel 2:32, where the Hebrew text clearly shows Yahweh. This means that Jesus is the "Lord" in verse 12 who is called upon, and in verse 13 Paul connects this "Lord" (Jesus) with Joel 2:32's Yahweh. This indicates that Jesus is truly the God of the Old Testament (Yahweh). Verse 14 reinforces this point and makes it stronger. As for the word "firstborn" - The word "firstborn" as used in Col. 1:15 has to do with supremacy. The contextual theme of Colossians 1:15-19 is that of the Supremacy of Christ. "Firstborn" is a Hebrew word having to do with rank, primacy, and supremacy. Vs. 15 is saying that Christ is the Supreme One over all Creation. That makes Him God. There is a different word for "first created", and that is the word Paul would have used if he wanted to convey the idea that Christ is a creation. He DOESN'T. And here is something BIG: *Even the JW masters admit that "firstborn" has to do with supremacy.* “David, who was the youngest son of Jesses [sic], was called by Jehovah the “firstborn,” due to Jehovah’s elevation of David to the preeminent position in God’s chosen nation” (Aid to Bible Understanding, 1971, 584; emphasis added). Israel is called God's “Firstborn” in Exodus 4:22, but everyone knows that Israel was not the first nation created. ADDED to this, in Revelation 1:5, Jesus is called “the firstborn of the dead,” even though He was not the first person to be resurrected chronologically. Of all ever raised, He is the preeminent One. Romans 8:29 refers to Him as the firstborn in relation to the church. In all the above cases, firstborn clearly means highest in rank, not first created.
@@jamesritter5078 The bible says Jesus and god are one, you could compare this to when you are married and you say you and your wife are one.. bible texts that may give similar talk about Jesus and God does not have to proof they are the same and part of a trinity. also because they resemble each other, they are one in that perspective you could say. The position for Jesus after god can be the highest if he was the first of creation. The bible says Jesus sits at the right side of god multible times in the bible? How can this be if Jesus and God are the same?
@@jamesritter5078 i explain to you about why some words can be the same said for god and Jesus. you talk about the first born i explain to you the view that Jesus can be in this position. So, did Jesus sit at the right side of god?
@@Cas-s2y Your post above does nothing but totally run away from my post about what Romans 10:13 says and shows and from what I wrote concerning the term "firstborn".
Upon watching the whole video, a lot of the rebuttals are circumstantial for both parties. At the end of the day no one can factually say the Bible is truth beyond hope and faith. It’s a good book, enjoy it
Of coarse yeshua is not GOD Almighty,Revelation 1:1this is the Revelation YHWH gave to Yeshua,if Yeshua (Jesus) is God Almighty what was he giving himself a Revelation this makes no sense at all,who leads all the angels into battle against satan and his followers its Yeshua(Jesus) and who else leads the battle against satan and his followers its Michael the arc angel,so go figure there is only one person leading the war against the evil forces
My friend, I have been at Jehovah’s Witness for more than 33 years now… well studied in the Hebrew and Greek… and respectfully would like to say to you that you were absolutely incorrect in this video by saying Jesus is not Michael the archangel… first me must identify what it is. We’re talking about….. many people, including you in this video think that an archangel or an angel is a type of being…. It absolutely is not an archangel or an angel is an office/position…. Not being…. That’s the first thing we have to acknowledge…. So let’s first look up these meanings for these words….. please look up Archangel in(Strongs: 734) meaning: ruler of the angels… also let’s look up Angel(Strongs: 72) meaning: messenger from God…. so we can see the two words here are not different kinds of beings. They are just different offices that these beings hold….. all of them are spirits… That’s their nature that’s their being including God.. please reference… John4:24; it says God is spirit…1 Corinthians15:45; it says Jesus is spirit… Hebrews1:13,14.. it says Angels are spirits.. so we see that all of these heavenly ones are all spirits/that’s their nature that’s their being… So we see that all of these heavenly ones are all spirits/that’s their nature that’s their being so we see that Being an archangel/Angel is just simply an office that one occupies…. Now that I hope we have a better understanding of what we’re talking about….. now the question is why do we as Jehovah’s Witnesses say that Jesus is Michael the archangel One of the things you pointed out in your video was Daniel10:13 where it says Michael was one of the four most princes… and you would be correct…. but a lot of people don’t understand a lot of things have changed once Jesus came to earth and died for our sins and was resurrected and became the Michael the archangel… which is a position that he did not occupy in the Old Testament… because he was simply one of the foremost princes… but now he’s Michael the archangel…. which is a position/office…. which means as we examined earlier… archangel… MEANS RULER OF THE ANGELS.. and that’s precisely Jesus position…1 Peter3:22… which reads(NIV)… Who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand WITH ANGELS AUTHORITIES AND POWERS IN SUBMISSION TO HIM…. That is the very definition of an archangel. (remember Archangel ruler of the Angels)… also read Hebrews1:4… and it says he has become better than the angels… NOT BECAUSE HIS NATURE IS BETTER But because he has received a better name than theirs… the word for submission in 1 Peter3:22(strong 5293) definition: to place under to subject to.. TO OBEY… that’s why Jesus said after his resurrection at Matthew 28:18.. all authority had been given to him in heaven… he’s now the ruler of the Angels… which makes him an archangel… now in this video you pointed out Hebrews 1:5.. it reads: for example to which of the angels did God ever say you are my son today I become your father… and you said that Jesus could not be an angel because of the statement in this scripture… my friend this statement in this scripture was made to the HUMAN JESUS ON EARTH… When he was made lower then the Angels… Hebrews 2:7… and it reads: you made him a little lower than the angels you crowned him with glory and honor and appointed him over the works of your hands… so to achieve a clear understanding of this, just simply requires a little research… for example Matthew3:17; Mark1:11; Luke9:35; Luke3:22…. and learn that these are all the times in the Bible that God says these things that we read in Hebrews…. which of the angels/spirit, did he ever say this to? He didn’t say it to an angel/spirit he said it to the … HUMAN… JESUS… That’s why we read what we read at 2 Peter1:17… For he received from God, the father, honor and glory WHEN WORDS, SUCH AS THESE WERE CONVEYED TO HIM BY THE MAGNIFICENT GLORY, THIS IS MY SON, MY BELOVED, WHOM I MYSELF HAVE APPROVED….. You also spoke on 1 Thessalonians 4:16… that reads: because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with the commanding call with an archangels voice, and with God’s trumpet… you said that this does not make him an archangel. Do you not notice that it says with the commanding call with an archangels voice and with God trumpet…. That’s the authority of an archangel 1 Peter3:22… that’s the point… and this idea you said in the video that if he’s that.. then he must be an inanimate Object like a trumpet…. Authority is something that a person possesses….. an inanimate object like a trumpet is just an inanimate object. It’s not something that is of the person or something they possess…. But A commanding call or the authority that a person possesses is… a trumpet is a musical instrument a tool that a person uses. It’s not something a person possesses like authority…. I also want to give you an example of not Jesus just acting as and Angel but also as an archangel, we get two examples here and one scripture and that is revelations1:1 we see in scripture that Jesus is receiving a revelation from God… what does the word revelation mean?…. Greek.(strong.602) meaning: An uncovering a revealing… we see in revelations1:1 Jesus is receiving divine knowledge from God that he didn’t already have…. Jesus revealed it to an angel..z remember earlier definition biblically of an angel… it means one who delivers messages from God… (What do we see happening in this very scripture).. then Jesus revealed this divine knowledge to to an angel…. making him once again an archangel… Angel revealed it to John and John wrote it down in the Bible… Jesus here is acting as an archangel because he revealed this divine knowledge to an angel… Angel is acting like an angel because he revealed it to John…. It’s just that simple….. the problem I think you’re having in many others who look into this matter… think that an angel/archangel is a type of being… and it most definitely is not. It’s an office that a type of being Occupies…. Jesus is delivering a message from God…. That automatically makes him an angel….. more importantly he’s delivering this divine knowledge to another angel… that makes him an archangel…. the Angel delivers this divine knowledge to John making him and Angel… they are all spirit beings, occupying different offices
There are several issues with your post. 1. While the word αρχαγγελος does not appear in the LXX, Michael is called "one of chief rulers" (εἷς τῶν ἀρχόντων τῶν πρώτων), ie Michael is one of the ruling angels or αρχαγγελοι. This is exactly what Michael is called in the intertestimental period-one of 7 archangels (1Enoch 20:2-8). 2. Archangel simply means that he is a ruling angel and does not mean he is _the_ "ruler of the angels," as you have claimed. For instance, there were many αρχιερεις (chief priests) and Lysians is called "THE military commander" (Λυσίας ὁ χιλίαρχος). No doubt, as someone who claims to know Greek that, you recognize the "arch" in both these titles, and you don't think that Lysians was the _only_ or even the _top_ military commander in the Roman army, do you? 3. I'm glad you know Greek because this will facilitate our conversation. Who is the only person identified (multiple times) as Kurios in Jude?
@@BasicBiblicalTruth my friend what exactly do you think a chief Angel is/archangel … chief is a person of greatest influence or importance… Chief of the Angels… ruler of the Angels, same difference both of those terms… are talking about a position of authority over the angels quite simple
Mark, did you not read my post? Lysians is called "THE military commander" (Λυσίας ὁ χιλίαρχος). Do you think he is the only one called χιλίαρχος? Do you know what the word literally means? Herod is called "THE tetrarch" (Ἡρῴδης ὁ τετραάρχης). Do you think that because he is called "THE tetrarch" there weren't others who were called "tetrarch"? Do you know what the word means? Archangel simply means chief angel or ruling angel and calling Michael _"the_ archangel," doesn't mean he was the only one, as I've shown from the two examples above. Now, stop avoiding my question because I'm going to show you that Jesus and Michael are not the same person: Who is the only person identified (multiple times) as Kurios in Jude?
@@BasicBiblicalTruth my friend, I understood everything that you wrote… I’m not sure you understand my point… when you read Daniel10:13 it says there are many four most princes/chiefs… I clearly understand that, but do you understand what Daniel 10:21 (NLT)and it reads… but first I will tell you what is written in the book of truth NO ONE HELPS ME AGAINST THESE SPIRIT PRINCES/CHIEFS EXCEPT MICHAEL, YOUR SPIRIT, PRINCE/CHIEF… notice, even though it’s telling us that there are other spirit chiefs…. That none of them was like Michael, the spirit chief… Michael possessed strength in a way that the other Chiefs did not…. now that being said in the New Testament Michael is spoken of as being the CHIEF OF ALL THE OTHER SPIRITS/ANGELS… in the Old Testament. They were called Chiefs…. That’s totally different than someone being called THE CHIEF OF EVEN THOSE ONES… thus MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL…. He’s not just a chief…. he’s the chief of the other chiefs. That’s the difference, my friend…. and even in the old testament like at Daniel 10:21… Michael is still being spoken of as having strength, but none of the other chiefs have… WHAT DOES IT SAY? NO ONE BUT MICHAEL YOUR PRINCE…. And now he’s the chief of those other princes/Chiefs…. So it doesn’t matter if others are called that….. He’s the chief of those ones.
Again, there are many bad arguments in this video, almost every single one. Amazing. Didn’t even cover all of the pro-arguments for why Michael and Jesus are the same, and never even mentioned how many trinitarian Bible scholars also conclude that Jesus and Michael are the same.
Hi there! I think I gave a fair representation of the JW position. For reference, see this article from JW.org here: www.jw.org/en/library/books/bible-teach/who-is-michael-the-archangel-jesus/ Was there a stronger argument that the Watchtower failed to provide? Let me know and I'll be happy to consider it!
I'm letting you know right now your theories on what Jehovah Witnesses believe is so far off!! My father who is an elder in this religion never once said that Jesus is just an angel. He was the son of God. Oh and by the way what is God's name psalms 83:18. I'm not even a witness and almost every Bible I've read says his name is Jehovah! So why not give praise to his name? No religion does but Jehovahs Witnesses. Check your indexes to see why his name was taken out! And another thing why would anyone want a symbol of the son of God dying on a cross. Would you want a crashed car around your neck to remind you of a loved one who was murdered by a drunk driver? No! Early catholics adopted some pagan symbols so it would be easier for pagans to change to Christianity! Which in the Bible is the biggest No No! Dude stop spreading your blasphemy!
Jay, the JWs DO believe that Christ is the angel/archangel Michael. You can go to the official JW place online and verify this for yourself. By the way - That JW belief is falsehood. You should also research this: The JW "leaders" have claimed for themselves without ANY biblical support whatsoever the following: They are the only, ONLY ones who... - were appointed and anointed by God and have His approval and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on. - are the only, ONLY communicators of God's truth and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on. - are the only, ONLY ones who can interpret the Bible correctly and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on. - are the only, ONLY ones who have the genuine message of salvation and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on. And they have also declared that a person absolutely MUST become a JW in order to have the possibility of maybe gaining salvation one day. Now - The above listing are some core essential beliefs of JWs. And to be a JW means that a person is absolutely 100% REQUIRED to believe the listing above - without question - for the possibility of MAYBE gaining salvation one day.. The problem is - NONE of these core JW beliefs or requirements listed above are biblical. And here is what the JW masters have stated about themselves: They have openly declared that your attitude toward and treatment of them - NOT Christ, THEM - will be the determining factor as to whether you will have the possibility of maybe gaining salvation one day or not: Watchtower 81/8/1 26 Harvesting in the "Time of the End" “Your attitude toward the wheatlike anointed “brothers” of Christ and the treatment you accord them will be the determining factor as to whether you go into “everlasting cutting-off” or receive “everlasting life." Jay - Before you try to tell others to engage in research, I suggest you do your own.
@@jamesritter5078 The Angel, possibly Gabriel, who come to support Daniel in Daniel 10, said there is NONE that SUPPORTED him in those things, but Michael - *Dan. **10:21* Which means this angel who come to support Daniel would not have a support of Jesus Christ? How would that be possible? You may say that only Michael was supporting this angel here on his mission to Daniel well, it may or may not be true. But why would he say that it would be recorded here in the Scripture of truth for all? What benefit would it bring? To brag or to complain? I guess certainly not. Now if we look at *Joshua **5:15**,* there is the same Hebrew word śar, which could mean commander, captain, chief, ruler or prince, of the LORD's army, the same word is used in *Daniel 10:20* to mean prince of Persia and of Greece. Or in *Daniel 10:21* in the form of śar-ḵem which means "your prince". And we know that Jesus Christ is śar- šā-lō-wm or "prince of Peace" of *Isaiah 9:6.* And that aside, there is *Galatians 4:14:* "And though my physical condition was a trial for you, you did not treat me with contempt or disgust; but you received me like an angel of God, like Christ Jesus."
@@christistheway7107 ?? Your post doesn't really engage with what I wrote about the central core beliefs of the JWs having NOTHING in the way of biblical support.
As a witness for 40 of my 46 years before waking up. These videos are absolutely amazing! Just found the channel and have been listening to them back to back!
It took years of study with different Bibles to convince myself of these truths.
The watchtower can truly captivate your mind!
I thank God for my wife, who was ahead of me in this regard!
That's amazing! I'm so glad you and your wife managed to escape the Watchtower. Thank you for watching and I hope this series blesses you!
@@brothersinarms5524 You we’re a witness for that long and yet still fall for these crafty lies?
If you knew Jehovah, you knew the truth and will never be misled no matter what.
@@theologywithseth “this series blesses you.” Is that how God will bless anyone? You cannot even tell God’s name don’t you? Because you don’t really know Who he is or you knew Him but won’t admit it at all.
@@Hallel-o-jahyou are so mislead and I pray you find Christ one day. God bless
@@Hallel-o-jah your taze russel recieved new light that was false hahah 1919 1935 1979
There is another often overlooked aspect of Daniel 10 in relation to Michael. Read Daniel 10:5-6 "I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz! His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude."
Notice anything familiar with this description? If you said Revelation 1:13-15, you'd be correct. It says, "and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters".
Now both of these descriptions are of Jesus, the first in a vision of his preincarnate state, the second in his risen. But the key to showing that Jesus is not Michael the Archangel. Further on in Daniel 10:13-14 when the One like the Son of Man says, "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come.”
So, if Michael is the one that came to assist the One like the Son of Man, Michael can't be Jesus.
Seth, you stud. You champ. You unit. I’ve watched all your JW videos and they’ve already had unmentionable impact my interactions with Jehovah’s Witnesses and my own walk with Christ. Don’t ever stop, you glorious man of God, you. Whenever we meet up in heaven I’m gonna headbutt you, you absolute chad. Stay frosty.
I think this is probably the best comment I've ever received! Haha, thanks brother, I'm glad the series has been helpful! Looking forward to the headbutt in heaven lol
A masterpiece, as always! Stay Blessed, namesake - Seth!
Much appreciated, thank you!!
I was a JW for many years. I walked away about 20 years ago. I have been unable to bring myself to have fellowship with any other group/body of Christians, due to the depth of watchtower indoctrination (so basically, I have been isolated from worship with other Christians for over 20 years). The deity of Christ has been a very big block to me; along with the worship of Jesus.
Over the last few years, I have prayed a lot about understanding the relationship between God and Jesus. Not too long after, during my regular Bible reading, in the book of Revelation, I came across a verse, and that verse was a lightbulb moment - Revelation 21:23:
"The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp."
Do you see how this has helped?
I realised, God is the 'source' and Jesus the vessel; Jesus the physical means by which God interacted with humans. Then I started to recall many other verses, such as how no one can see God and yet live, etc etc. I then realised, by means of Jesus, God CAN have a presence with His creation. Jesus is the means by which God can deal with us.
Would anyone like to say if my reasoning is correct on this point from Revelation 21:23? Ive had no such input really on these topics, for many years.
I am on the verge of grasping this; but still, struggle to let go of what I have learned with watchtower; and thats 20 years after walking away.
I also prayed, in receent years to find a group of believers to associate with; and I found a little church of only about 20-30 Christians. They have a caring group of elders; they appear to be very active in helping others and in sharing the gospel. So I decided to make a visit. First time ever I have done such a thing since leaving Watchtower land. I have really enjoyed visiting their services; all Bible based, with a joyful spirit; people I want to be with more often. BUT, after having attended their meetings for a couple of months, Ive now been absent for a couple of months. I said to one of the young men, that I am processing things mentally. But now I think its also because watchtower indoctrination is rearing its head; and the worshiping of Jesus situation has caught up with me.
I know this must all sound very confusing; but I have started to realise, just how much the indoctrination of watchtower has really affected me. I want to get past this block and get back to this lovely little group. I want this niggle to disappear.
Thank you to anyone who read through my expression here.
Ps, a fine point you make, Seth, using Matthew 4:10, Hebrews 1:6 and Revelation 19:10 and proskuneo.
Thing is, my heart has desired for so many years, to give to Jesus the full amount of what he deserves and not just the minimum as put forth by watchtower.
You need to watch the James White vs Stafford Greg debate. Fortunately, it is still right here on youtube. Stafford Greg is no longer a JW and is in the same position as you. In that debate Stafford demonstrated how the term proskeneo can still rightly apply to Jesus even with Jehovah being the "light source and Jesus the vessel". Put simply Jesus has been given the name above every other name; every knee in heaven and earth must bow and acknowledge him . Watchtower was doing OK until they set themselves up as THE faithful and discrete slave and started dictating laws to their adherents. The original Bible students were doing well in fellowship with seventh day Adventists until Russel came along and dubbed himself the faithful slave. Just find a prayer group that follow the lifestyle of the original Bible students. There are many
I feel the same after 35 years in i walked away 1.5 years ago and its so hard to get my head around things. Your comment has actually helped a lot. I too have no idea of where to go for fellowship.thankyou for your comment.
@@universalman5861 I have watched those videos, White vs Stafford, but it was a long time back; I may give them another go.
@@Brosk1111 Thanks for expressing your own experience. It really is a challenging journey to say the least.
I often think about how Elijah was reassured during his running from Jezebel and Ahab. He felt very alone; yet, God revealed how there were still those 7000 who had not bent the knee to Ba'al.
To me, it seems you have a similar desire. That takes courage. The Lord knows who are his own, even when we are in these periods of isolation.
This is what helped me to realise, that a faithful follower of Christ can actually be found in any part of that world-wide field, holding their own, their faith, faithfully to God, through Jesus (Just like the 7000) The 7000, kept their faith despite the whole nation of Israel turning apostate.
Similarly, I have come to believe, current faithful members of the body of Jesus, are to be found throughout Christianity, in its apostate condition. Revelation chapters 2 and 3 helped me with this thought, a lot. It helped me to consider my options in finding another group to share fellowship.
So, when you consider how watchtower promotes its whiter than white outward appearance, a kind of bragging right that they have the truth, its actually not the description Jesus gives, regarding his congregation (as described in Revelation 2 and 3)
I hope this makes some sense.
Also, another scripture that trips people up is when it says Jesus shall sit on the right hand of God. The right hand represents works or what God does. So God being a spirit uses Jesus to have fellowship with us his creation. When we see Jesus we see the Father. You and I also are spirits and the way we have fellowship with each other is with our bodies. So Jesus is God in human form. TC
It's clear as day that Jesus is God. I don't understand why some people aren't seeing it. Great work!
Agreed! It's just spiritual blindness at work, I'm afraid. But let's be praying that God would open people's eyes to the truth!
It is absolutely clear in Scripture that Jesus is divine, the Holy Son of God. I don't understand how brainwashed these people can be.
That said, Adventist believe the divine Holy Son of God is also Michael, the "leader of the angels" because of the Hebrew and Greek. Adventist just see it as another title Christ has.
The JW denying Christ as God is disturbing.
I think it is just reasoning just like when we are first interested in God we reason that the biggest and oldest church must be the true church so many try the catholic church. They also reason that the KJB must be the best and only bible to read as it is the oldest and was the only bible available for a long time and God seemed to honour or approve of it, in it being so. This then relates to why many reason Christ can not be God because if He was it would be more obvious. I mean He would have not kept quite about it and not told others not to tell others that He was. I personally came to God but soon after I was faced with the question of who then was Christ? The more I read the more I saw the confusion of Christ as God. I fearfully came to that conclusion and was blessed above all as I had not been told or taught this by men but God Himself. I was and still am a little annoyed that this is never preached in any church I have attended.
@@americanswanYou can keep going with your own belief. Do not be disturbed by Jehovah’s Witnesses’ not calling Jesus Christ their God but rather take him as the son of God.
Their God is Jehovah, the God and Father of Jesus.
According to Christ himself:”His Father is also our Father and his God is also our God.”
@@theologywithseth It is most likely though that you are the ones suffering from your so-called spiritual blindness.
It is very very clear that Jesus is the son of God.
He has a God and Father. He further said that “my Father is also your Father and my God is also your God.”
I’m so thankful for your beautifully done channel and how you explain this !!! many blessings to you
I truly appreciate that! I hope the content continues to bless you
Thanks for the beautiful reminder that our great one true living God loves us so much that he came himself...Immanuel, God with us.
"But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough."
- 2 Corinthians 11:3-4
May we stop putting man-made gods before the Lord our God!
Thank you for watching!
@@phaedragalloway4544 Read 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
Love your work, fantastic.
Thank you so much!
I like your point where God is the one who personally comes to save us, rather than send some patsy to do the deed for him.
I've used the same point myself, showing that any father would be the one taking action for his children.
Another point I show in Jude is that in verse 4 Jesus is named our ONLY master and Lord. Then in verse 5 it's the Lord (our only Lord) who saved a people
out of the land of Egypt. (Jesus)
And then in verse 9 when Michael say's "the Lord rebuke you" he is obviously speaking of our ONLY Lord Jesus Christ.
You can clearly see the distinction here between Michael and Jesus.
Case closed.
That's a great observation! Thank you for commenting
Unfortunately, in verses 5 and 9 of the NWT (JW Bible) they change the word Lord to 'Jehovah' to make it seem like it's not talking about Jesus.
Their interlinear says Lord but they will still have a hard time believing it is talking about Jesus because of their actual translation saying Jehovah.
As someone who was a born-in JW, we really believed our translation was the most accurate. 🤦♀️
After God started waking me up, and after much prayer and being willing to consider that I might be wrong, it was the passages in Hebrews 1 and 2 and the passage in Daniel 10 when compared to the passage describing Jesus in Revelation that convinced me Jesus was not Michael/an angel.
As a believing JW I had no idea the Bible said He wasn't an angel.
And it was seeing the oldest pictograph form of the divine name YHWH in Hebrew, along with learning that each Hebrew letter is actually a word, that convinced me Jesus was God. (Because when you look at it in Hebrew, the divine name they love so much is undoubtedly about Jesus.)
@@alishaba- I was a "born in" JW for 60 years.
Now I'm a "born again" Christian who loves my Lord Jesus Christ.
I 'm so happy to hear that when you left, you didn't lose your faith in God, like so many do.
God Bless
The god of the watchtower is a coward , he created an angel to do the dirty work. So in watchtower theology God sacrificed nothing of himself, Michael didn’t lose anything but gained . Neither one sacrificed anything.
Another great video! Thanks Seth!👍❤️✝️
Thank you for your encouragement! I'm very glad you enjoyed it
Wow, great video. You have a natural talent for this, nice!!
Thank you so much! I'm very glad you enjoyed it!
Consider how ridiculous the JW claim about Michael is. JWs claim:
1. Jehovah created Michael the archangel, a demigod who creates everything on behalf of Jehovah (contrary to Isa 44:24 & 45:12).
2. Jehovah annihilated Michael.
3. Jehovah created the human Jesus (who has no correspondence with Michael. There was no incarnation of Michael, rather, at some point Michael ceased to exist and Jesus was created. So why did Michael have to be annihilated? I do not know, do you? This belief also contradicts the Gospel’s account that Jesus “came down from heaven”).
4. Jesus lived, died, and ceased to exist.
5. Jesus 2.0 is created (which JWs call resurrection, but is not the same as the Jewish/Christian concept of resurrection).
6. Jesus 2.0 (another human Jesus) hung out with the disciples for 40 days and then … what? JWs aren’t really sure on this point.
7. Jesus 2.0 ceased to exist somehow and Jesus 3.0 (a spirit creature) began, who is also called Michael (even though the Bible never makes that connection, and actually shows Michael and Jesus are separate entities; cf. Jude).
8. Heb 2:5 says that God did not put the world to come under the control of angels, rather, the writer says, God has placed the control of the world to come in the hands of Jesus, a human (and God). Yet, this must be a different Jesus than Jesus/Michael 3.0 since Jesus/Michael 3.0 is an angel, according to JW theology. So JWs must believe that Jesus/Michael 3.0 will cease to exist at some point and Jesus 4.0 will be created. So when does that happen?
This is just one more teaching of JWs that they accept without any semblance of critical thinking and they do so because men in NY tell them to believe it, in the same way they have been told they must believe that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BC (instead of 586/7 BC as ALL scholars affirm) and that they must believe that Jesus died on a "torture stake" and not a cross (even though ALL the evidence is on the side of cross).
Those are some excellent observations! I do find it interesting that JW's will endlessly ridicule the doctrine of the Trinity and Incarnation, but it seems like they never really stop to consider how bizarre their own theology sounds to non-JW's. I think they'd be surprised by how differently the Bible reads if they'd just read it on its own without all the Watchtower magazines. As always, thanks for your detailed comments!
@@theologywithseth Thanks, Seth. I agree with you. If JWs would read the Bible without JW commentary, they would come to a very different conclusion about who Jesus is than what the GB tell them.
1. if Jesus was the first angel created in heaven, he may have seen everything god created and may have seen every step of creation, through him every thing was created.
2+3. going from one entity to another whom says you need to destroy Michael the angel for this? if Jesus was god, did god have to destroy him self? It can be he lost his memory when he was Jesus.
4. Jesus was in a sleep if he was dead. That is what he said about people that where dead.
7. if Jesus is not god then for him to be the first angel to be created gives answers to alot of bible text about him, it fits.
8. Jesus is one angel if he is Michael who has control?, but Hebr 2:5 can talk about the fallen angels. but who says Jesus does not listen to god, who is above an Angel?
@@Cas-s2y 1. Let me get this straight, you do not think that Jesus is the agent of creation, correct?
2-3. Christians believe in the incarnation. This means we believe that Jesus added to himself a human nature, called (in theology) the hypostatic union. Do you believe Jesus was both angel and human, either fully, in the way Christians believe Jesus is fully God and fully human, or partially, in the way that Herculies was part human and part god?
4. Sleep is a euphemism for death but that doesn’t mean they are not conscous (cf. Luke 19; Rev 6:9).
7. You didn’t address my point.
8. You didn’t address my point. Heb 2 says the world to come has been placed in the control of a human (Jesus). JWs claim that Jesus is not currently a human, which means they either have to ignore this text or say that Jesus will be made human again in the future.
@@BasicBiblicalTruth Your reasoning about why Jesus can not be an angel is causing some problems for your self. Because you should apply te same logic to Jesus if he was god and he was created and died etc.
❤ I loved and agreed your explanations about our Lord Jesus. Thanks
And I get out from this false religion Jehovah Witnesses organizations.
Thank you for commenting! I'm glad you enjoyed the video
There is complete scriptural evidence that Jesus is not Michael, and I find it very exciting because its as though God knew people would get weird with him. If you look at Revelation 1:12-18 (And I'll even use the NWT)
I turned to see who was speaking with me, and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man clothed in a garment that reached down to the feet and wearing a golden sash around his chest. 14 Moreover, his head and his hair were white as white wool, as snow, and his eyes were like a fiery flame 15 and his feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars and out of his mouth a sharp, long, two-edged sword was protruding, and his countenance* was like the sun when it shines at its brightest 17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.
And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, l 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.
We know this is Jesus because He says he became dead
and then in Daniel 10:4-13, it is a mirrored replica. Daniel Sees Jesus
Daniel 5-6
I looked up and saw a man clothed in linen,e and around his waist was a belt of gold from Uʹphaz. 6 His body was like chrysʹo·lite,f his face had the appearance of lightning, his eyes were like fiery torches, his arms and his feet looked like burnished copper and the sound of his words was like the sound of a multitude
And then continued in Daniel 10:13 the man is speaking and says:
But the prince of the royal realm of Persia stood in opposition to me for 21 days. But then Michael, one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I remained there beside the kings of Persia.
So Michael helped Jesus fight off the prince of Persia.
Wow! Very nice ending ❤
Thank you! I hope it blessed you
Great work, brother!
Thanks brother! I'm glad you enjoyed it
Mark 14:62
“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.❤🙏✝️
0:13 My comment the term archangel is never used in the Old testament. I would answer Jehovah witness. Where did Paul and Jude get to term archangel from? not from the Old testament , but from second temple Material. which in it there is seven archangels not one. That's where they got the term archangel from. Jw's believe there's only one archangel
That’s a really good point! Never considered that
Yes, Michael is one of the chief princes.
In the Kingdom of God, Christ the LORD is King.
Where are 7 „archangels“ mentioned in the second temple material? I know of 7 named angels, but not „archangels“ in that material.
@vill7777 Thank you for sharing that! Even in the Bible Michael is just "one among many" (Daniel 10:13) so that's not surprising at all. God bless you!
@@theologywithseth
Yes, Michael is "one of," Christ is the only begotten of the Father.
Whenever Jehovahs Witnesses use 1 Thessalonisns 4 to prove Jesus is an Angel I take them Revelation chapter 1 verse 15 where John describes Jesus voice as the voice of many waters.
I then take them to Ezekiel chapter 43 verse 2 where it describes Jehovah the God of Israel voice as the voice of Many waters.
I then ask the question if Jesus has the audible voice of the Archangel in 1 Thessalonisns 4 and John said that voice sounds like many waters please explain why does Your Archangel Michael/Jesus have the same Audible voice as the God of Israel,?? in Ezekiel 43..
When I ask them that question they stare at me like a deer in headlights..And they don't have the answer and say can I get back with you
Talking to the Pharasees Jesus said before Abraham was "I AM". The tetragramaton YHWH the unpronouncable name of God. For this reason Caiaphas rent his robe calling Jesus a blasphemer because He called Himself God.
Titus 2: 13 ...our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Thomas when seeing the resurrected Jesus called Him "My Lord and My God".
You're spot-on! It's amazing to see the lengths people will go through to avoid the obvious teaching of those verses. Thank you for sharing!
@@moisesbeyond???
Great video Seth, Russell and the early Watchtower didn't believe Jesus was Michael the Archangel.
Also they believed Jesus was worshipped
At one time the Watchtower also believed Michael the Archangel was the Pope of Rome.
“‘Let all the angels of God worship him’ [that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God].”
WT 11/1879, p. 48”
“Michael in Revelation 12:7 is the pope of Rome.STUDIES, Vol. 7, p. 188”
Hello friend, blessings from Arizona.
Thank you @RowanTasmanian! That's a great point. It's amazing how often The Watchtower changes their official doctrine throughout their relatively short history. Thank you for sharing!
@@mattmurdock2868 G'day Matt, always lovely to hear from you. God Bless and I hope all is well with you and your family.
@@theologywithseth G'day Seth, you are doing a fantastic Job and your apologetics are first rate.
Your ministry is so important to these people and if there is any help you require ie Research of WT articles, please let me know.
I have been in this ministry for over 40 years and am from the Walter Martin era of Apologetics to the cults.
I've never been in a cult, but was raised as a Baptist in rural Tasmania.
Anyway God bless you and your ministry.
@RowanTasmanian That means a lot! Walter Martin is one of my heroes. Thank you for watching!
Thank you for this one
You're very welcome! Glad you enjoyed it
Michael is an angel. Jesus is God. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, He has always existed. Michael and all angels were created by God. Jesus is the only one we worship 🙏 Not Michael. Jesus is God, Jesus said "I and the Father are one." Michael is NOT God, not Jesus.
Jesus is NOT an angel. Jesus is God who rules over ALL angels.
Such an informative video Seth....many thanks and GOD bless you.
Sub'd.
Gilly wife of Mark
Thank you so much! I'm glad it was helpful
Thanks for sharing 🙏🏿
Prayers going out for those who subscribe to the JW doctrine 🕊️
His grace and mercy be upon you and your loved ones 🕊️🥛🍯
Also in regard to 1 Thessalonians 4:16. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
If a JW believes that this verse is substantial evidence that Jesus is the Archangel Michael because He will come with an Archangels voice, then by using the same logic, then *Jesus is God, because He will come with God's trumpet*/shofar
JESUS is not the true God, but he is the only begotten Son of JEHOVAH GOD his Father and God.JESUS in his prehuman life was the first created angel in heavens known as Michael the Archangel and this is the angel that JEHOVAH GOD sent on this Earth to become JESUS CHRIST and to die for all mankind as a ransom sacrifice for our sins.The flesh and blood JESUS CHRIST as we know him here on this Earth did not exist in heavens, he was only living for 33years on this Earth.And now that he is back in heavens, he is back to what he was before coming to this Earth a spirit person, an angel known as Michael the Archangel sitting next to his Father and God JEHOVAH.
@@nikolapejcinovski5990 Sorry dude I'm not going to bite and start a dialogue about this with you here. You must be mentally challenged, because you apparently are incapable of understanding the content of this video.
@@nikolapejcinovski5990 Sorry, but I'm not starting a dialogue about this with you here. Simply watch the video that Seth has provided.
@@nikolapejcinovski5990 if Jesus is not The true God , then that makes Him one of the false gods . And what you JW most know is that through out the OT JEHOVAH our GOD in many passages says that He is the only God they must not worship other gods than Him . Knowing that the Jews are stricly monotheist the Idea of another God is totally unacceptable .
It’s difficult to compare the two, a trumpet often symbolically proclaims Gods judgments or other events of divine origin. Trumpets were used for various reasons. In the case of “the archangels voice” it’s always singular in the 2 times it’s mentioned in Jude and 1 Thes 4:16. Michael is the only one called archangel with the power to resurrect the dead which shows authority. What lesser angel has the authority to resurrect the dead? (John 5:25)
Hello my brother, thank you for sharing, I have examined concerning worshipping Jesus, I collect all scriptures , I found out that those who worship Jesus they worship Him as Lord (Master) and also King, his God is the only one worshipped as God and creator. Collect the scripture you will see, may God bless
If all things are possible with God , isn’t it possible that God is multi-personal while still being the only God ?
That's a very good question! We need to be careful not to apply human limitations to God. If He exists in three Persons, who are we to stay His hand?
Not according to the apostle Paul at 1 Corinthians 6: 8, who changed my mind as a former trinitarian.
Paul eliminates any idea of a muti- personal God, when he teaches us clearly: " Actually to us there is one God the Father..." 1 Corinthians 8: 6.
Isaiah 42: 1 teaches me that the holy spirit belongs to Almighty God. Jesus was God's chosen servant, who received it from his own source of life....his one true God .....the only true God, whom Jesus said:" I live because of the father. "
Praised be the God and Father of our lord Jesus Christ -2 Corinthians 1: 3.
Yes, this Jesus, God made both lord and Christ. - Acts 2: 36.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
By your logic since Jesus is the only Lord, then the Father is not Lord ! Yet the Father is also Lord ! This means that the Father being God doesn't exclude Jesus from being God, since Jesus being the one Lord doesn't exclude the Father from being also Lord. He and the Father are one by nature ! They and the Holy Spirit are all together the one true God and the only Lord. That verse perfectly fits in the doctrine of the Trinity.
I am unconvinced that It is IMPOSSIBLE for God to be
multi-personal.
God created us in His image….His similitude
(Gen 1:26 ; James 3:9)
We are spirit , soul and body….just as God
(1 Thess 5:23 ; Isa 42:1)
The Word is capable of separating His parts
(Heb 4:12)
How’d he have two wills or talk to himself…. We do the same just as Paul did. We want to do good but we fight against our flesh and spirit everyday in this life. (Rom 7:14-25)
Once you see it then you’ll see it everywhere…. My soul delighteth …it pleases my soul
Being an archangel is like a demotion for the savior - lol - makes no sense
Agreed! Making Jesus anything less than God in the flesh is a demotion for him
This question itself is crazy and so inappropriate, how can GOD be likened to an angel.
Agreed!
And what angel gives life?
Psa 47:5
God has ascended with a shout, The LORD [Jehovah] , with the sound of a trumpet.
1 Thess 4:16
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.
Fun video. I'm not a JW but I still wonder about one of the claims you made. It's about authority. You pointed out Michael did not have authority, but Jesus did. Except Jesus said that he was given authority.. That seems to imply he did not always have authority. If he was given authority, that means that at some point in time he existed without authority.
Either way, it's still a difference! Thanks for watching
Maybe because Jesus had emptied himself when he took the form of a human?
"No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human." Philippians 2:7 (NWT)
Jesus Christ did not exist eternally as a human body but indeed did exist eternally as the Son of God through whom all things were made and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
How could Jesus create the entire universe (from every single atom to every single star/galaxy) and then be born as a human that had to learn to talk and walk and develop like all of us?
The Son of God humbled himself into human existence, and be glad for it because He did it to forgive us for our sins❤️
Him being born a Jew (a human having a God) and having been given authority does not in any way make him any less very God.
@@Gonefishing185 I was just nitpicking and pointing out a tidbit. Please don't get carried away.
That verse got a much deeper meaning...
M a tthew 28:17-19 N A S B1995
[17] When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. [18] And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [19] Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
They worshipped Him, to those who didn't He said ALL POWER in heaven and on earth was given to Him, that means He doesn't share His power.
This is why Jesus said the Father judge no one, all judgement is given to Him that we honor (value) Him just as we honor (value) the Father.
Same Yehovah.
They’re also false prophets
What about The Angel of The LORD? He is worshipped as God.
Question: What does "...if you receive a different spirit from the one you received" even mean? This sentence (fragment) doesn't make sense, even with the surrounding context.
Satan is a lying spirit. And we are also told to test the spirits
Hi
Firstly the sound of a trumpet and the voice of an arc angel is the Rapture of the Church, not the second coming.
JW is not a religion, there's nothing theological to discuss
Hey! JW here, again.
1Thess 4:16
The counterargument in the video is not good. It takes a logically incoherent notion (Jesus comes with a Trumpet so he is a Trumpet) and pretends it has bearing on a logically possible one (Jesus is Archangel Michael).
So that is just a non-sequiter. It doesn't follow that if he can't be a trumpet therefore he also can't be Michael. I hope Trinitarians can see this is a silly argument and stop using it. (I've heard Mike Winger and others use it to, so don't feel bad. Just stop)
And 1 Thess 4 should be used in combination with John 5 and Daniel 12:1-3. All three talk about end times, judgment and resurrection of the dead. Christ doubles down on _voice_ saying it will be his own that is heard. (John 5:25, 28) Paul says the voice is an Archangels! (The greek of the text can be read epexegetically so that the three clauses "shout" "Archangels voice" and "Trumpet of God" are three ways of describing the same audible attributed to "the Lord himself".
Reading Paul any other way has him contradicting or ignoring the emphasis that Christ puts on his own voice being heard. Finally Daniel 12 has Michael "stand up" which would've been understood grammtically and contextually as not only a military defense but as advocate in a judicial setting. (See Zech 3:1-3 and Psalm 82) As an _advocate_ he would use his voice. So John 5, Christ claims to be Michael of Dan 12 and Paul confirms this interpretation.
JW leadership do not appeal to John 5 and Daniel 12 because they recognize the problems with doing so.
Daniel 12 is fulfilled in Rev 12:7. Michael stands up to fight on behalf of God's people. The text says nothing about Michael being involved in the resurrection.
John 5 says that the dead will hear the voice of the Son of Man and will live. This begins with salvation and finds its culmination in the resurrection of the Body. There is no conflict with Paul's statement that Jehovah Jesus' coming will be heralded by an archangel and with the blast of a trumpet because Paul doesn't give us a full account of the events that will take place (i.e., he doesn't mention the angels [Mat 24:31] or the saints [i.e., the righteous dead; 1Thes 3:13] that will accompany Jesus). Paul focuses on the fact that Jehovah Jesus will come himself and not a representative, his coming will be announced with the blowing of a trumpet and the shout (voice) of a high-ranking angel.
The Greek of the text in 1Thes 4:16 presents the possibility of two options: 1) there are three sounds (i.e., a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet of God), or 2) there are two sounds (i.e., a shout that is expressed by the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God).
Paul is alluding Psalm 47 where Jehovah God (Jesus) ascends to sit on his throne as King of kings and Lord of lords. The scene is that of an emperor coming to a city. He is preceded by the cry of a high-ranking official and the blast of a trumpet-imagery the Thessalonians would have immediately understood. (It's also possible that Paul is alluding to the Apocalypse of Moses where Moses. In this story, the archangel Michael proceeds the Lord with a shout and blowing of the trumpet, announcing the coming of the Lord to earth (where he was going to judge Adam and Eve). _AFTER_ being preceded by the archangel Michael, who blows the trumpet and shouts his announcement, _THEN_ the Lord calls to Adam.)
However, I think Paul is primarily alluding to the imagery from Psalm 47 and says that when Jehovah Jesus descends to earth, he will be preceded by the shout of an archangel (possibly Michael) and the blast of a trumpet (cf. 1Co 15:52). The shout of the archangel is a command for people to respond. The command (κελεύσματι) is in apposition to ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι Θεοῦ (the voice of an archangel and God’s trumpet). In other words, this command is expressed in the shout of an archangel and the blowing of a trumpet. The loyal subjects of the King (Jehovah Jesus) come out of the city to receive their King (“meet the Lord in the air”), and they respond to the initiation of the high official (archangel) with their own shouts as they receive their King (cf. Psalm 47). Nowhere in this verse is Jesus identified as an archangel, let alone the archangel Michael (ps. there is more than one archangel-Dan 10:13).
The archangel acts like the Sergeant at Arms walking into the House of Representatives and loudly proclaiming, "MR. SPEAKER, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES."
The Sergeant at Arms announces the coming of the President, just as the archangel announces the coming of someone monumentally greater than the President of the United States-the King of kings, and Lord of lords. This imagery would be readily understood by 1st-century ears since this is how visiting dignitaries were introduced to cities.
Jesus said, “Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” (Matt. 24:30-31 ESV). Angels will be present with Jesus. 1Thes 4:16 only mentions one particular angel among the many, the archangel who announces the coming King-Jehovah Jesus.
@BasicBiblicalTruth
1)Dan 12 & Rev 12:7
Your idea here doesn't erase the connections of John 5, 1 Thess 4, 5 and Dan 7, 12. So deal with these texts, don't use Revelation as a redherring
2) John 5
The King clearly doubles down that it's his own voice (5:25, 28). For Paul to interject a _different_ voice obviously contradicts OR as I said elsewhere, _ignores_ the king's emphasis.
Also, Paul does mention angels: the trumpet is associated with angels (Matt 24:30; Apoc. Mo. 22:1-3) and an Archangel commands and leads angels! So you're just ignoring what an ancient Jewish audience would not ignore. (And the "saints" of 1 Thess 3:13 is "holy ones" which is another term for angels)
3) Third Possibility
I explained elsewhere, and you've dishonestly left it out. The Greek could be an epexegesis, three ways to refer to one sound. The "shout", the "Archangels voice," and the "Trumpet of God" all refer to the same audible which Paul attributes to "the Lord himself". (Follows John 5 in only one voice is heard and Rev 1:10 where John says Christ voice is as a Trumpet
4) Ps 47
I acknowledged elsewhere that Ps 47 maybe another background for Paul. Even if true, it doesn't erase the connections of Daniel 7, 12 and John 5.
After looking at Psalm 47 closer it's less plausible. It describes a different period altogether! This isn't the war of the eschaton, it looks like a celebration after the war.
Your "emperor coming to city" analogy fails because you have pomp and pageantry but John 5, Dan 12 and 1 Thess 4,5 have hard times and peril! I completely refuted this comparison by explaining that in these "King Returns for war" texts only the leader is individualized. A lone hero is single out in the forefront and his army pluralized in the background. Your analogy is for Ed McMahon introducing Johnny Carson not the biblical context. (I gave Matt 13:41, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31 and etc. You ignored the biblical pattern and repeated your old refuted points)
Stop ✋️ ⏹️
Dan 12 doesn't advance your argument. Linking it with Rev 12 is consistent with what your leaders see in the text.
John 5 doesn't mention angels being present with him. Does that mean he contradicts himself in Mat 24? No, he simply isn't giving all the details.
Paul doesn't give all the details either. He mentions 3 elements: the personal descent of Jehovah Jesus, the trumpet blast, and the call of the archangel.
ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ.
Now, you don't know Greek. You've acknowledged this. In this verse, if και had come after ἐν κελεύσματι, then the command, trumpet, and voice of the archangel could be the same thing. However, the way the verse is written presents two ways of viewing this verse, which I have already stated in a previous post.
You must confess that Jesus is Michael because that's the "new light" your leaders claim to have gotten and you must believe what they tell you. Thus, you are forced to make a connection that isn't there.
@@BasicBiblicalTruth
1)Dan 12
Yes, it _is_ the argument. The links are there. Paul and Jesus are both borrowing from Dan 7, 12
2) "John 5 doesn't mention angel"
Again, playing obtuse. My point is:
At John 5 the King explicitly highlights his own voice making it an IMPERATIVE part of the event!! Repeat, the King, in a short span doubles down on his own voice using "Son of man" language from Dan 7. An absence of angel's in John 5 vs Matthew 24 is nothing like ignoring a doubtlet and REPLACING IT with a different voice!! (See God's own emphasis on the Angels voice at Ex 23:21,22. Imagine Joshua saying Moses hearkened to a Prophet in a recounting of that same event??)
3) I don't have to know Greek. I gave an argument from those who do. The kai joins the second and third clauses which lends itself to an epexegesis. "Shout" has no qualifying genitive so the two joined clauses could be read as elaborations on that same audible! That's the argument. You, giving an alternative, doesn't dismiss it. Not at all
@@BasicBiblicalTruth
..why are you so dogmatically insistent on reading Paul as diverging from Christ?? You have no basis in the Greek! You dishonestly left it out as a possibility even though Leon Morris puts it in a footnote as a _possible_ reading?
1 Thess 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first
Here it links Arch Angel to Christ!
That's the first claim I address in the video. Always watch before commenting!
It says with an arc angel, and does not say that it’s Michael, there is more than one arc angel.
@@Terrylb285 How do you know?
@@theologywithseth you cant deny that scripture. It says the Lord will call like an archangels voice. Jesus can take on many roles just as he is the destroyer in revelation. You have no idea who Jesus is lol you may need to re educate urself.
Jws don't know who he is....a man ...a angel....a god little g
Trumpet means yelling!
It will be interesting if you cross-reference Rev 19:13-16 with 1 Tim 6: 13-16, check it out.
YAHO SHEMO! YESHUA SHEM BENO!
AND Seventh-Day Adventists!
"For us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist." 1Cor 8:5 Jesus prayed to his FATHER, "Not MY will but YOUR will." Lk 22:42
Jesus learned OBEDIENCE TO HIS FATHER. Heb 5:8 Jesus is not Almighty God, his Father is.
All things, including the other sons of God were created thru Jesus.
This is how Jesus is God's only begotten Son, the Firstborn of all creation.
Jesus is not the created archangel Michael who was created through Jesus.
Almighty God, the Father said: This is my SON...Mt. 3
In 1Cor 8:6, Paul takes the Shema from the LXX (the same that Jesus quoted from in Mark 12:29) and applies it to BOTH the Father and the Son.
The Shema, from Deuteronomy 6:4 LXX is, Ἄκουε, Ισραηλ· κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν κύριος εἷς ἐστιν· ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord (κύριος) our God (θεός), the Lord (κύριος) is one.’
In 1Corinthians 8:6, Paul Christianizes the Jewish Shema by glossing the title “God” (θεός) to the Father and Lord (κύριος) to the Son.
As David Garland says,
“The creedal statement καὶ ὅτι οὐδεὶς θεὸς εἰ μὴ εἷς (kai hoti oudeis theos ei mē heis, that no God [exists] except one) echoes the basic Jewish confession in the Shema (Deut. 6:4; 4:35, 39; Isa. 44:8; 45:5).... The dismissive phrase ‘the so-called gods’ (λεγόμενοι θεοί, legomenoi theoi; cf. 2 Thess. 2:4) defers to popular parlance that identifies them as gods, but it insinuates that it is wrong…. Paul creatively christianizes the foundational Jewish monotheistic confession: ‘The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). He glosses the reference to Lord and God in that confession so that ‘God’ refers to the Father and ‘the Lord’ refers to Christ.”[1]
And as Gordon Fee says,
“Although Paul does not here call Christ God, the formula is so constructed that only the most obdurate would deny its Trinitarian implications. In the same breath that he can assert that there is only one God, he equally asserts that the designation ‘Lord,’ which in the Greek OT was used to replace the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) and thus belongs singularly to the one God, is the proper designation of the divine Son.”
JWs make several errors: 1) they ignore the context, 2) they ignore the fact that Paul is citing the Shema and Christianizing it, 3) they ignore the fact that Kurios is used for the tetragrammaton, and 4) they are inconsistent. If Jesus can’t be God because Paul says that the Father is the Christian God, then the Father can’t be Kurios because Paul says Jesus is the Christian Kurios. Which would mean that the Father is a different God than the OT God.
When read in context, this passage is a powerful proclamation that Jesus is Jehovah, the second person of the triune God.
[1] David E. Garland, 1 Corinthians (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 2003), ePub, 8:4-6.
[2] Gordon D. Fee, The First Epistle to the Corinthians, Revised (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2014), ePub, 8:6
@BasicBiblicalTruth The father can't be lord? Really? So all the time the OT uses 'Sovereign Lord' it was talking about the son and not the father?
@@universalman5861 Thanks for proving my point.
PS. The OT use of "sovereign Lord" is in relation to the one being of God, not in regard to one of the persons of the Godhead.
@@BasicBiblicalTruth On what basis do you make such a distinction?
The persons of the Godhead are not identified until the NT. Actually, they are identified between the OT and NT in the incarnation of the Son and the sending of the Spirit, but we are only made aware of it in the NT.
The NT identifies Jesus as Jehovah, the second person of the triune God, by taking OT Jehovah passages and applying them to Jesus: Mar 1:2-3 (citing Isa 40:3 & Mal 3:1), Rom 10:13 (citing Joel 2:32), Phi 2:10-11 (citing Isa 45:23), 2Thes 1:9 (citing Isa 2:10), Heb 1:10-12 (citing Psa 102:25-27), 1Pe 2:3 (Psa 34:8), 3:14-15 (Isa 8:12-13).
“When Archangel Michael argued with Satan about his body (Joshua)”
Then Zechariah 3
Sorry. Where does Michael argue with Satan about Joshua's body?
@@BasicBiblicalTruth If you consider "About Moses' body" to be a lie, you'll pass.
So is the scene in Zech 3 the same as the scene in Jude or are they two very different scenes?
@@BasicBiblicalTruth High Priest Joshua is Melchizedek, Michael, High Priest of Heaven.
There was a high priest called Joshua though.
That part is Jesus
Zechariah 3 is a courtroom scene among the divine counsel. Satan and Joshua stand before the judge-the angel of YHWH, who is identified as YHWH in v. 2. Satan acts as the prosecuting attorney (cf. Job 1:6), and is poised to accuse Joshua for his filthy clothes which symbolize guilt and sin. Just as Satan stood before YHWH in the presence of the divine counsel to accuse Job (Job 2:1), so now he stands before YHWH to accuse Joshua. YHWH then appeals to YHWH to rebuke Satan because Joshua and Jerusalem have been chosen by YHWH, showing a distinction of persons within YHWH. The angel of YHWH (who is YHWH) then commands his attending angels who are standing by to remove the Joshua’s filthy clothes. These attending angels who stand before YHWH are common in these types of visions (cf. 1Ki 22:19). Then the angel says something that only YHWH can say in v. 4, “I have freely forgiven your iniquity” (NET). This oscillation between this figure being called the angel of YHWH and YHWH, and appealing to YHWH to rebuke and then forgiving sins himself, shows this figure is both YHWH and distinct from YHWH, which the NT reveals to be the plurality of persons in the one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Michael is not mentioned in this text nor is he identified as Jesus anywhere in the Bible.
[1] _The New English Translation with Strong’s (NET),_ Second (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 2019), Zechariah 3:2n3.
Keep it simple.
PART 1. GOD, THE MEDIATOR, AND MEN
If the Bible is the Word of God, He can speak for Himself. Let the Bible speak for the Bible.
I TIMOTHY 2:5 '''FOR THERE IS ONE GOD, AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, A MAN, JESUS CHRIST.'''
GALATIANS 3:20. ''' NOW, THERE IS NO MEDIATOR WHEN JUST ONE PERSON IS INVOLVED, BUT GOD IS ONLY ONE.'''
Impossible for Jesus to be God if he is the only mediator.
PART 2. MICHAEL the ARK ANGEL
Only God and angels live in Heaven. Nobody else. Nothing Else.
If Jesus is not God according to the two Scriptures on the mediator above, and Jesus is in heaven, he can only be an Angel.
Angels have names. So would Jesus have a name.
Jehovah always changes names for different roles.
Like Abram's name Jehovah changed to Abraham; Sarai's name He changed to Sarah; And Jacob's name He changed to Israel. etc etc
This time their names come chosen directly from Jehovah, for some reason.
So Jehovah also changed Michael the Ark Angel's name in heaven, to the name "Jesus" on earth. Why?
The name "Jesus" is the English translation of his original Hebrew name "Yeshua,' which means ''Saviour."
Jesus does not have to be called "saviour" in heaven, only a saviour on earth.
So in heaven Jesus name is Michael, meaning "who is like God."
With Jehovah, everything falls in place.
PART 3. RESURRECTION
Only God and angels live in heaven.
Jesus was the first who was resurrected from the dead to go to heaven. REVELATION 1:5
There are 9 accounts of the resurrection, including Jesus. Only Jesus ascended to heaven.
The rest were resurrected from death,on earth, and died again.
They never ascended to heaven like Jesus did or we would have heard of it.
No resurrected ones are in heaven (yet).
No good people who died has resurrected to heaven (yet)
Jesus said the grand resurrection will only happen in the last days.
JOHN 6:40, 44, 54; JOHN 11:24 JOHN 5:28-29
King David lived and died 1,000 years before Jesus was born.
David was a special man to Jehovah. Jehovah loved him. Many times Jesus was even called the "Son of David."
MATTHEW 1:1, MATTHEW 9:27; 12:23; 15:22; 20:30; 21:9; 21:15
But according to ACTS 2:34 David is not in heaven.
If all good people go to heaven when they die, and there is nothing better to be than be in heaven,
why did Jesus resurrect good people who died back to earth, when they could have been in heaven already?
Christ isn't an angel. He is certainly not Michael, as JWs teach.
NO angel would ever make the self-declaration that Christ makes for Himself in John 12:45
NO angel would ever tell people to believe in it the same as they do in God. But Christ does just that in John 14:1.
NO angel would ever make the self-declaration Christ makes for Himself in John 14:7-9. Michael would DEFINITELY NOT ever make these declarations. His name means "Who Is Like God?" Obvious answer: NO ONE. If Michael had made those declarations, he would be going against the meaning of his own name and committing blasphemy.
NO angel would ever receive for itself the declaration of Thomas in John 20:28.
NO angel has the same nature as God, as Paul states Christ does in Philippians 2:6.
In NO angel does all the fullness of God reside, as Paul states in Colossians 2:9.
As for "Mediator" - JWs teach that Christ is Mediator ONLY for the 144,000. Here is the proof:
"So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians." Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31
"Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members." Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" (1986) pp.10-11
I just have a question - why is God called "father" and Jesus "son". Without a father first, there is no son. This is not going into my head. Maybe I am just too stupid.
The Father/Son language is anthropomorphic language that is used to communicate how the Godhead interacts with itself. In the ANE, brother gods were rivals (cf. Egyptian gods Osiris and Set), so how could one send the other? Male/female or husband/wife gods always involved a sexual aspect to the relationship (cf. Egyptian gods Geb and Nut). Not to mention they were often dualistic. A Father/Son relationship tells us that they are equal as to nature, there is a functional hierarchical aspect to the relationship, it is a loving but non-sexual relationship, and honouring one is to honour the other. A son in the ANE had the same authority as the Father (Joh 5:18), could rule as co-regent (David-Solomon), and was owner of everything that was the fathers (Luk 15:31). A Father/Son relationship is the perfect way to communicate the relationship between the two persons of the Godhead. But don't push the anthropomorphic language beyond the bounds of what the text intends it to communicate. A father sires a son through coitus, and this is certainly not the case with the Christian God. Likewise, this language is not intended to infer that there was a time when the Son was not. There was never a time when the Father was not "Father" because there was never a time when he was without the Son.
Hope this helps.
How about instead of trying to prove who is right just move on . Quit finger pointing . Christians say trinity trinity all the time and it’s never mentioned in the Bible .
JW get a bad rap . And tons of no. Truth about they print their own Bible (not ) they publish new English standard study Bible . So how about move on and stop pointing fingers
"Governing Body" isn't in the Bible so you'll agree that it is false, right?!
No
The angel in Revelation1 and Daniel 10 is same.
Its gabriel.
Because gematria of angel gabriel is same as “the many waters”
So complex,, but everything is easy when you think the Christianity is a lie
At the 4:30 timestamp, Seth asserts that Jesus having an archangels voice is an ACCOMPANYING element and not an IDENTIFYING element. It is similar to Jesus coming with God's trumpet. Unfortunately for Seth, I can CARRY a trumpet. Can I carry someone else's voice? Jesus said that his sheep knows his VOICE. Does this not mean that Jesus is IDENTIFEIED by his voice. John 5:28 says that the hour is coming when all in the Grave shall hear Jesus' voice. If Jesus is not IDENTIFIED by his voice then the dead will not be able to respond to it.
Secondly, at the 7:30 timestamp, Seth claims that we can be looking at two different commanders leading two separate battalions. The notion of different commanders leading the heavenly forces is belied by Revelation 19:14"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." There is only ONE commanders of the heavenly army...Micheal the Archangel.
I AM NOT A JEHOVAH'S WITNESS. However, Seth his misrepresented their position. The MAIN reason why JW's believe that Jesus is Michael is simply because Micheal is responsible for casting Satan out of heaven. No ordinary celestial being can accomplish this feat. That Micheal can do this means that Michael is even STRONGER that Satan.
Finally lets reflect on Jesus' nature and WHEN this verse is fulfilled. Lets say Jesus is not Micheal the archangel. He is Yahweh, since "he and the father is one". He is God Almighty since Jesus is simply "Yahweh of the old testament" . If all this is correct then that trumpet in 1Thessalonians is actually JESUS' trumpet since he is God. Why didnt the verse simply state that Jesus would come with HIS trumpet?? Why does Paul write this verse making a distinction between Jesus and God, when Jesus 'is' God? Why the consistent distinction between 'the Lord' and 'God' when they are the same person? ( And why is the Holy Spirit always left out and never takes a personal name... after all how personal is the name 'Holy Spirit'?) Above all else, why would the 'omniscient' Almighty, who is incomparable to any of his creations, inspire his servant to write a verse that not simply COMPARES his voice to that of a created being (an archangel), but actually says that the Almighty Sovereign of the universe speaks with the voice of a vastly inferior being. Additionally, in the Old Testament, when Yahweh speaks vis voice back then was like thunder, so much so that the Isrealites begged Moses to act as Yahweh's spokesman since they were so scared of his voice. Could a mere archangel's voice be compared to Yahweh's voice at Exodus???
"Could a mere archangel's voice be compared to Yahweh's voice at Exodus???"
How about the three angels being representative of Yahweh at Mamre? Genesis 18
The leader of the angelic army is Christ, the "LORD of hosts."
In the Kingdom of God, Michael is a prince, Christ the LORD is King.
@bourbon_sketcher In case you didn't realise, I do not need to have anything in common to represent someone. A lawyer can represent an injured woman before a judge; does that mean that he has any characteristics of a woman?
@@universalman5861 Your confusion is confusing me.
John 17.3
Amen! That's one of my favorite verses!
@@Bojojoans John 17:3
[3] And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
JW's did not invent this teaching. Referring to the Geneva Bible of 1500, all notes in Daniel, Jude, and Rev refer to Michael the Archangel, who is identified as Jesus. In Matthew Henery's complete commentary, he also called Michael the pre-incarnate Jesus.
JWs are seed pickers. Their entire religion is pieces picked from multiple groups. For instance, their teaching that people cease to exist at death comes from the Sadducees.
Now, the question isn't, Where did they obtain this particular teaching, but, Is this teaching right? The answer is, No.
Tell me, who is the only person explicitly identified (multiple times) as Kurios in Jude?
True, but their beliefs were very different than the JW doctrine. They were all Trinitarians who believed in the full Deity of Christ, so when they said Jesus was Michael, they simply saw Michael as another name for Jesus- the eternal, uncreated, Second Person of the Trinity. If they were alive today, they'd repudiate the Watchtower doctrine just as strongly as anyone else, so there's really no point in quoting them in this particular debate.
What can you say then of melchizedek in the book of hebrew?
@@TeresaMalinao-d1n I don’t understand your question
Read the melchizedek scroll of the dead sea scroll.
Melchizedek is messiah
If Jesus is god, why was his name different in the Hebrew Scriptures? There was no acknowledgement of a Jesus, Yesuah or the like.
Jesus is the I AM. If He is not God ,then your sins are not forgiven. Jesus will be given a New name at the end of the chapter. Only God can forgive sins!
If you read the bible it can appear like Jesus is god. But the word trinity is not in the bible.. In the bible it says Jesus is the word and the word was god.. you can also translate to the word was a god. the problem is that in old Greek is does not have the word 'a' in their language. Also Jesus is called mighty god but it is also listed with other titles (atleast if this bible text talks about jesus, but looks like it is about the messiah), if he was the first born of creation it can be normal he gets titles that are close to god, he has a relationship with god, like all people have on earth, every one has a father. That can be a reason he is called the son of god. Not only the son. The problem with Jesus being God is, that you have to reason that Jesus and god are different and the same. Jesus was praying to god to not send him to die. he said i do your will to god. If he is the same, it has no purpose? Also a voice came from heaven when he got baptised. And many bible text say he sits on the right side of god in heaven.
in Romans 10:13. Paul is citing Joel 2:32, a passage about Jehovah, and he directly applies it to Christ - thus calling Christ GOD. Anyone can look this up on their own very easily. Honest readers understand that that is precisely what Paul is declaring there. In verses 9, 12, and 13, "Lord" is a translation of the Greek word kyrios, and verse 9 clearly associates "Lord" with Jesus. The same association continues in verses 12 and 13.
However - Verse 13 is a quote of Joel 2:32, where the Hebrew text clearly shows Yahweh. This means that Jesus is the "Lord" in verse 12 who is called upon, and in verse 13 Paul connects this "Lord" (Jesus) with Joel 2:32's Yahweh. This indicates that Jesus is truly the God of the Old Testament (Yahweh).
Verse 14 reinforces this point and makes it stronger.
As for the word "firstborn" - The word "firstborn" as used in Col. 1:15 has to do with supremacy. The contextual theme of Colossians 1:15-19 is that of the Supremacy of Christ. "Firstborn" is a Hebrew word having to do with rank, primacy, and supremacy. Vs. 15 is saying that Christ is the Supreme One over all Creation. That makes Him God. There is a different word for "first created", and that is the word Paul would have used if he wanted to convey the idea that Christ is a creation. He DOESN'T.
And here is something BIG: *Even the JW masters admit that "firstborn" has to do with supremacy.*
“David, who was the youngest son of Jesses [sic], was called by Jehovah the “firstborn,” due to Jehovah’s elevation of David to the preeminent position in God’s chosen nation” (Aid to Bible Understanding, 1971, 584; emphasis added).
Israel is called God's “Firstborn” in Exodus 4:22, but everyone knows that Israel was not the first nation created.
ADDED to this, in Revelation 1:5, Jesus is called “the firstborn of the dead,” even though He was not the first person to be resurrected chronologically. Of all ever raised, He is the preeminent One.
Romans 8:29 refers to Him as the firstborn in relation to the church.
In all the above cases, firstborn clearly means highest in rank, not first created.
@@jamesritter5078 The bible says Jesus and god are one, you could compare this to when you are married and you say you and your wife are one.. bible texts that may give similar talk about Jesus and God does not have to proof they are the same and part of a trinity. also because they resemble each other, they are one in that perspective you could say. The position for Jesus after god can be the highest if he was the first of creation. The bible says Jesus sits at the right side of god multible times in the bible? How can this be if Jesus and God are the same?
@@Cas-s2y Your post above does nothing but totally run away from my post above.
@@jamesritter5078 i explain to you about why some words can be the same said for god and Jesus. you talk about the first born i explain to you the view that Jesus can be in this position. So, did Jesus sit at the right side of god?
@@Cas-s2y Your post above does nothing but totally run away from my post about what Romans 10:13 says and shows and from what I wrote concerning the term "firstborn".
Upon watching the whole video, a lot of the rebuttals are circumstantial for both parties. At the end of the day no one can factually say the Bible is truth beyond hope and faith. It’s a good book, enjoy it
archeology proves the bible is true. try to dig some!
Of coarse yeshua is not GOD Almighty,Revelation 1:1this is the Revelation YHWH gave to Yeshua,if Yeshua (Jesus) is God Almighty what was he giving himself a Revelation this makes no sense at all,who leads all the angels into battle against satan and his followers its Yeshua(Jesus) and who else leads the battle against satan and his followers its Michael the arc angel,so go figure there is only one person leading the war against the evil forces
Try to read the book of Zechariah and Jehova is reffered as the mightie God.
Michael is messiah in daniel12
My friend, I have been at Jehovah’s Witness for more than 33 years now… well studied in the Hebrew and Greek… and respectfully would like to say to you that you were absolutely incorrect in this video by saying Jesus is not Michael the archangel… first me must identify what it is. We’re talking about….. many people, including you in this video think that an archangel or an angel is a type of being…. It absolutely is not an archangel or an angel is an office/position…. Not being…. That’s the first thing we have to acknowledge…. So let’s first look up these meanings for these words….. please look up Archangel in(Strongs: 734) meaning: ruler of the angels… also let’s look up Angel(Strongs: 72) meaning: messenger from God…. so we can see the two words here are not different kinds of beings. They are just different offices that these beings hold….. all of them are spirits… That’s their nature that’s their being including God.. please reference… John4:24; it says God is spirit…1 Corinthians15:45; it says Jesus is spirit… Hebrews1:13,14.. it says Angels are spirits.. so we see that all of these heavenly ones are all spirits/that’s their nature that’s their being… So we see that all of these heavenly ones are all spirits/that’s their nature that’s their being so we see that Being an archangel/Angel is just simply an office that one occupies…. Now that I hope we have a better understanding of what we’re talking about….. now the question is why do we as Jehovah’s Witnesses say that Jesus is Michael the archangel One of the things you pointed out in your video was Daniel10:13 where it says Michael was one of the four most princes… and you would be correct…. but a lot of people don’t understand a lot of things have changed once Jesus came to earth and died for our sins and was resurrected and became the Michael the archangel… which is a position that he did not occupy in the Old Testament… because he was simply one of the foremost princes… but now he’s Michael the archangel…. which is a position/office…. which means as we examined earlier… archangel… MEANS RULER OF THE ANGELS.. and that’s precisely Jesus position…1 Peter3:22… which reads(NIV)… Who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand WITH ANGELS AUTHORITIES AND POWERS IN SUBMISSION TO HIM…. That is the very definition of an archangel. (remember Archangel ruler of the Angels)… also read Hebrews1:4… and it says he has become better than the angels… NOT BECAUSE HIS NATURE IS BETTER But because he has received a better name than theirs… the word for submission in 1 Peter3:22(strong 5293) definition: to place under to subject to.. TO OBEY… that’s why Jesus said after his resurrection at Matthew 28:18.. all authority had been given to him in heaven… he’s now the ruler of the Angels… which makes him an archangel… now in this video you pointed out Hebrews 1:5.. it reads: for example to which of the angels did God ever say you are my son today I become your father… and you said that Jesus could not be an angel because of the statement in this scripture… my friend this statement in this scripture was made to the HUMAN JESUS ON EARTH… When he was made lower then the Angels… Hebrews 2:7… and it reads: you made him a little lower than the angels you crowned him with glory and honor and appointed him over the works of your hands… so to achieve a clear understanding of this, just simply requires a little research… for example Matthew3:17; Mark1:11; Luke9:35; Luke3:22…. and learn that these are all the times in the Bible that God says these things that we read in Hebrews…. which of the angels/spirit, did he ever say this to? He didn’t say it to an angel/spirit he said it to the … HUMAN… JESUS… That’s why we read what we read at 2 Peter1:17… For he received from God, the father, honor and glory WHEN WORDS, SUCH AS THESE WERE CONVEYED TO HIM BY THE MAGNIFICENT GLORY, THIS IS MY SON, MY BELOVED, WHOM I MYSELF HAVE APPROVED….. You also spoke on 1 Thessalonians 4:16… that reads: because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with the commanding call with an archangels voice, and with God’s trumpet… you said that this does not make him an archangel. Do you not notice that it says with the commanding call with an archangels voice and with God trumpet…. That’s the authority of an archangel 1 Peter3:22… that’s the point… and this idea you said in the video that if he’s that.. then he must be an inanimate Object like a trumpet…. Authority is something that a person possesses….. an inanimate object like a trumpet is just an inanimate object. It’s not something that is of the person or something they possess…. But A commanding call or the authority that a person possesses is… a trumpet is a musical instrument a tool that a person uses. It’s not something a person possesses like authority…. I also want to give you an example of not Jesus just acting as and Angel but also as an archangel, we get two examples here and one scripture and that is revelations1:1 we see in scripture that Jesus is receiving a revelation from God… what does the word revelation mean?…. Greek.(strong.602) meaning: An uncovering a revealing… we see in revelations1:1 Jesus is receiving divine knowledge from God that he didn’t already have…. Jesus revealed it to an angel..z remember earlier definition biblically of an angel… it means one who delivers messages from God… (What do we see happening in this very scripture).. then Jesus revealed this divine knowledge to to an angel…. making him once again an archangel… Angel revealed it to John and John wrote it down in the Bible… Jesus here is acting as an archangel because he revealed this divine knowledge to an angel… Angel is acting like an angel because he revealed it to John…. It’s just that simple….. the problem I think you’re having in many others who look into this matter… think that an angel/archangel is a type of being… and it most definitely is not. It’s an office that a type of being Occupies…. Jesus is delivering a message from God…. That automatically makes him an angel….. more importantly he’s delivering this divine knowledge to another angel… that makes him an archangel…. the Angel delivers this divine knowledge to John making him and Angel… they are all spirit beings, occupying different offices
There are several issues with your post.
1. While the word αρχαγγελος does not appear in the LXX, Michael is called "one of chief rulers" (εἷς τῶν ἀρχόντων τῶν πρώτων), ie Michael is one of the ruling angels or αρχαγγελοι. This is exactly what Michael is called in the intertestimental period-one of 7 archangels (1Enoch 20:2-8).
2. Archangel simply means that he is a ruling angel and does not mean he is _the_ "ruler of the angels," as you have claimed. For instance, there were many αρχιερεις (chief priests) and Lysians is called "THE military commander" (Λυσίας ὁ χιλίαρχος). No doubt, as someone who claims to know Greek that, you recognize the "arch" in both these titles, and you don't think that Lysians was the _only_ or even the _top_ military commander in the Roman army, do you?
3. I'm glad you know Greek because this will facilitate our conversation. Who is the only person identified (multiple times) as Kurios in Jude?
@@BasicBiblicalTruth my friend what exactly do you think a chief Angel is/archangel … chief is a person of greatest influence or importance… Chief of the Angels… ruler of the Angels, same difference both of those terms… are talking about a position of authority over the angels quite simple
@@BasicBiblicalTruth also wanted to point out that archangel grammatically is in the singular…. And Spoken of as. (THE.)Archangel.
Mark, did you not read my post?
Lysians is called "THE military commander" (Λυσίας ὁ χιλίαρχος). Do you think he is the only one called χιλίαρχος? Do you know what the word literally means?
Herod is called "THE tetrarch" (Ἡρῴδης ὁ τετραάρχης). Do you think that because he is called "THE tetrarch" there weren't others who were called "tetrarch"? Do you know what the word means?
Archangel simply means chief angel or ruling angel and calling Michael _"the_ archangel," doesn't mean he was the only one, as I've shown from the two examples above.
Now, stop avoiding my question because I'm going to show you that Jesus and Michael are not the same person: Who is the only person identified (multiple times) as Kurios in Jude?
@@BasicBiblicalTruth my friend, I understood everything that you wrote… I’m not sure you understand my point… when you read Daniel10:13 it says there are many four most princes/chiefs… I clearly understand that, but do you understand what Daniel 10:21 (NLT)and it reads… but first I will tell you what is written in the book of truth NO ONE HELPS ME AGAINST THESE SPIRIT PRINCES/CHIEFS EXCEPT MICHAEL, YOUR SPIRIT, PRINCE/CHIEF… notice, even though it’s telling us that there are other spirit chiefs…. That none of them was like Michael, the spirit chief… Michael possessed strength in a way that the other Chiefs did not…. now that being said in the New Testament Michael is spoken of as being the CHIEF OF ALL THE OTHER SPIRITS/ANGELS… in the Old Testament. They were called Chiefs…. That’s totally different than someone being called THE CHIEF OF EVEN THOSE ONES… thus MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL…. He’s not just a chief…. he’s the chief of the other chiefs. That’s the difference, my friend…. and even in the old testament like at Daniel 10:21… Michael is still being spoken of as having strength, but none of the other chiefs have… WHAT DOES IT SAY? NO ONE BUT MICHAEL YOUR PRINCE…. And now he’s the chief of those other princes/Chiefs…. So it doesn’t matter if others are called that….. He’s the chief of those ones.
Again, there are many bad arguments in this video, almost every single one. Amazing. Didn’t even cover all of the pro-arguments for why Michael and Jesus are the same, and never even mentioned how many trinitarian Bible scholars also conclude that Jesus and Michael are the same.
Hi there! I think I gave a fair representation of the JW position. For reference, see this article from JW.org here: www.jw.org/en/library/books/bible-teach/who-is-michael-the-archangel-jesus/
Was there a stronger argument that the Watchtower failed to provide? Let me know and I'll be happy to consider it!
I'm letting you know right now your theories on what Jehovah Witnesses believe is so far off!! My father who is an elder in this religion never once said that Jesus is just an angel. He was the son of God. Oh and by the way what is God's name psalms 83:18. I'm not even a witness and almost every Bible I've read says his name is Jehovah! So why not give praise to his name? No religion does but Jehovahs Witnesses. Check your indexes to see why his name was taken out! And another thing why would anyone want a symbol of the son of God dying on a cross. Would you want a crashed car around your neck to remind you of a loved one who was murdered by a drunk driver? No! Early catholics adopted some pagan symbols so it would be easier for pagans to change to Christianity! Which in the Bible is the biggest No No! Dude stop spreading your blasphemy!
Jay, the JWs DO believe that Christ is the angel/archangel Michael. You can go to the official JW place online and verify this for yourself.
By the way - That JW belief is falsehood.
You should also research this: The JW "leaders" have claimed for themselves without ANY biblical support whatsoever the following: They are the only, ONLY ones who...
- were appointed and anointed by God and have His approval and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.
- are the only, ONLY communicators of God's truth and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.
- are the only, ONLY ones who can interpret the Bible correctly and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.
- are the only, ONLY ones who have the genuine message of salvation and ALL others are false, wrong, apostate, of Satan and so on.
And they have also declared that a person absolutely MUST become a JW in order to have the possibility of maybe gaining salvation one day.
Now - The above listing are some core essential beliefs of JWs. And to be a JW means that a person is absolutely 100% REQUIRED to believe the listing above - without question - for the possibility of MAYBE gaining salvation one day..
The problem is - NONE of these core JW beliefs or requirements listed above are biblical.
And here is what the JW masters have stated about themselves: They have openly declared that your attitude toward and treatment of them - NOT Christ, THEM - will be the determining factor as to whether you will have the possibility of maybe gaining salvation one day or not:
Watchtower 81/8/1 26 Harvesting in the "Time of the End" “Your attitude toward the wheatlike anointed “brothers” of Christ and the treatment you accord them will be the determining factor as to whether you go into “everlasting cutting-off” or receive “everlasting life."
Jay - Before you try to tell others to engage in research, I suggest you do your own.
@@jamesritter5078 The Angel, possibly Gabriel, who come to support Daniel in Daniel 10, said there is NONE that SUPPORTED him in those things, but Michael - *Dan. **10:21*
Which means this angel who come to support Daniel would not have a support of Jesus Christ? How would that be possible?
You may say that only Michael was supporting this angel here on his mission to Daniel well, it may or may not be true.
But why would he say that it would be recorded here in the Scripture of truth for all? What benefit would it bring? To brag or to complain? I guess certainly not.
Now if we look at *Joshua **5:15**,* there is the same Hebrew word śar, which could mean commander, captain, chief, ruler or prince, of the LORD's army, the same word is used in *Daniel 10:20* to mean prince of Persia and of Greece. Or in *Daniel 10:21* in the form of śar-ḵem which means "your prince". And we know that Jesus Christ is śar- šā-lō-wm or "prince of Peace" of *Isaiah 9:6.*
And that aside, there is *Galatians 4:14:*
"And though my physical condition was a trial for you, you did not treat me with contempt or disgust;
but you received me like an angel of God, like Christ Jesus."
@@christistheway7107 ?? Your post doesn't really engage with what I wrote about the central core beliefs of the JWs having NOTHING in the way of biblical support.