Watts Link pt 2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 มิ.ย. 2020
- After taking an evening to relax and reset, Justin went back in the next day with a schedule and plan to finish the Watts Link on time without any major snags. Was it a good decision?
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1. On a watts link on a bagged truck the center crank needs to be clocked at 1and 7. That allows for longer bars and more travel.
I used to make and sell watts links about 15 years ago.
13:55 “I like good welds. When I do, I hit my own like button.” Do NOT hit your own like button! You’ll go blind!!
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Great job, great to watch!
I'm one of the weirdos that gets down and looks. I like to see the ingenuity and creativity that goes into these cars and trucks. I've seen some amazing things under the rattles ratmobiles. Always a pleasure watching your projects unfold.
I literally just sat down with a 5:30 coffe and cig break and sat here wondering how long I would have to wait for part 2, 20 seconds later my question was answered! Now to sit back and enjoy! Love the work bud keep up the perfection!
Can’t believe the amount of high quality information on this channel, for free. Taking us to school every time
I love how much I learn from your channel. Thank you, for all that you do for us. I know that this is time consuming, and I really do appreciate it.
I remember talking to you about doing this years ago. Happy to see you are finally getting around to it!👍
This is a great series. I can't wait to see how this turns out.
Great 2 part series! I have been into handling since Addco swaybars intro to me back in 1970. I then learned about the Watts Link and sway bars. This video helps me with on my next handling improvements in my 2001 S10 2wd truck. A watts link. I started with adding a 2nd front swaybar to the front like what GM did for the newer 1500 trucks. Mount the bar behind the front wheels. I did this and left the stock front bar in place. Tested it! What a big difference! I then did this in the rear. My S10 Xtreme has a rear mounted rear swaybar installed stock. I then installed a forward mounted rear bar and left the stock rear bar in its place! What a Big difference! I have done many improvements to the frame and suspension for handling. Lowering, bracing front steering brace, middle cross-member brace, and rear K brace. Remounting the battery under the bed behind the right rear wheel, adding 100 pounds of lead weight under my stock rear bumper, a K brace for my shackels like the Toytoa X runner pickup, body bushings,shocks, springs, steering shock, and more. The truck handles SO good now! Very balanced when I pitch it around and it still rides smooth on smooth roads! Tires which are 2007 Corvette C7 wheels 18s and 19s, are nice looking polished, but tires only last me 3-6 months when drive hard in the turns, and expensive to replace. I did buy a watts linkage kit a couple of years ago but it looks like a you compared to yours! Great Channel! Subscribed!
I’m excited for the gussets. I appreciate the work you’re doing, thank you.
Loving the series, Justin!
Best tutorial on TH-cam. Thank you for sharing your expertise.
Super helpful to see this go together and really be able to see how it works. Going to be doing something similar on my build. Thank you 👍
got my order from your shop. SS coupons and SS welding rod, I am completely happy with the order and quick service.
Love your work man, keep it up.
Plus me and my daughter is loving your series on this
This stuff always caught my interest. Used to work in a welding shop. That’s a crazy suspension design
Really enjoying this series, keep em coming!
Mumford link! :) Love to see you do that one.
enjoy all your videos
I really enjoy your videos
Can't wait to see this truck on the road in the turns!!!
Thanks for actually lifting it up so we could see how it works. I'm looking forward to see the bracing added
That bender is rad.
Oh and a shout out too the late jessi combs, her record attempt was put into the Guinness world record as the fastest women on earth at 522.783 mph rip jessi 😢
I didn't know she died until I read that.
Clever. I had never seen such a set up.
Arrrrgggghhh, I wished I had you as a teacher in Fab and welding class!
Nice! I always prefered Watts link to Panhard rod functionally and the Watts link looks better, too! 👍💪
Awesome content and deeply appreciate sharing the creative process and development of this project. Thank you. Is that flatstock really vertical at half travel?
Enjoying this series. I'm still wondering what made you want to go with a reverse 4 link setup. Wouldn't you want the arc of your rearend to follow that of your driveline? Not to mention other negative handling characteristics associated with reversed 4 link? However, with that being said, I don't know it all and I'm looking forward to seeing more of the build! Thanks for sharing!
Should have lined up the pivot on the same linear line as the pinion. And weld the Watts link directly to the axle housing. Simpler, cleaner, etc. Plus it eliminates the flex of the tabs/mounting hardware holding the Watts link. Any deflection will be minimized and therefore the angles will be more accurate. Have a good day, Justin.
Paul Stuart Wilson
There is zero reason to align the Watts-Link Pivot with the Pinion centerline, but welding to the housing is definitely the only way to go .
This setup, with welding to the Axle Tubes, and especially using Poly Bushings, is just asking for problems .
.
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Watts links used on Crown vic p71 police cruisers
I understand about the thread length its a feng shui thing !!!!!!!!
Great work
Wholly geometry Fabman 🤙🏽 so there you have it boys and girls, pay attention in school.
9:15 I have the exact same drill press in my shop!! 🤘🏻
Nice... Try going full independent rear end... The handling n ride quality will be amazing..
15:44 the axle doesn't move because wheels are sitting on the floor. Hard to show what's happening that the frame doesn't move side-side, but it looks great!
Very interesting design.
I would double nut that pivot point on the center watts link bracket, then you can loosen that boot up a half turn so that there isn't too much pressure on that bushing to create friction or bind, and it won't want to walk that bolt loose during the travel, you don't want it too tight, I put all zero fittings on my joints when I built my suspension so I could grease them
Could you have bent the watts link bars so they looked the opposite of your centre support bars and mounted them almost directly to the frame?
OH man that watch is too nice to be working with lol
Good stuff
To anyone with experience...I currently run a pan hard bar on a bagged truck but my wheels and bed make a bit of contact. Question is will I lose my ability to play side to side with a watts link?leaving me with only FB and pancake.
Whats with the plug weld in the tube at 11:18? When did that become necessary?
I write on every part or it is on left or the right side and a arow pointing to the frond of the car or boat or bike. Than you can mix al the parts up and find always the write way back.
Always though that the watts link crank is supposed to be a bit angle at mid travel (to allow it to arc(rotate) both way of the vertical axis during it's full travel.
how much side force do you think it will have?
hi could you unbolte the watt link and rock it. so that we could see the difference. nice work
What I'm getting out of it is. The wax link would be used for air bagging or four wheel drive vehicles due to the travel. Drag racing not as important. Is this correct?
The monster step is what made the watts link difficult...it was overkill for a minitruck frame. A less aggressive amount of chop between the frame rails would have been the better idea like maybe 12 inches instead of what looks 18 + inches. And yes I do this regularly and have a half ton stepside Chevy in my shop as I type this and I'm not cutting this much out of the frame. Yes its bagged I finished the front including a z in the front frame and stock floor body drop. Calculations I have I should be tucking 24 and rocker before frame will bottom. I am using a watts link because triangulating would require more floor removal and be easier to back half the truck instead. Trying to keep the truck looking like a simple static truck until I lay it out. Oh I'm not running 24 inch wheels Its gonna be on drag radials so havent decided my wheel and tire combo yet.
What is the name of that layout die marker and where can a guy buy one?
I don't understand watts link / 4-link (in general) because what triggers me is that a diff is usually a super thin material - that one welds these forces to for mounting??? How does this work for everyone?
awesome!
Great work as always but can’t help but think that you should have just made a couple of shims on a lathe to go either side of the rosejoints(heims). Would have avoided putting 2 bends into each of those pieces of flat bar.
My thoughts exactly. No need to get all "arts and crafts" with it. Just stuff some shims in there, and move on.
thanks panhard .
Its seems to be pretty long, are you building a Salt flat car?
The centre link needs to be setup vertical at full and bottom bump for the link to work optimally, not at mid level where the bars are checked for parallel.
i want a watts links installed on my stang ,i just dont know if anyone near me with experience that has done it
Type of bender is that?
What rear axle is that?
yes
tip: use triangles in your frame designs as it is much stronger than square angles. cough cough. cheers.
I suspect this frame will give them problems if heavily loaded. 90 degree angles or over 90 degree angles are never a good idea in a frame due to the abrupt directional changes in the stress flow.
Thks
I'm curious on that watch link will it bind up if you do any kind of flex on it where one will goes down one wheel goes up or vice-versa let me know
No, both links will move and stay parallel with the axle
What made you go with the watts link and that arrangement of radius arms over a triangulated 4 link?
My wager is he is building this frame for a car build.
A forward link setup would eat into floor/seat pan. And he went parallel for a rear mount fuel cell.
And radius arms should be avoided at all cost.
This may be a stupid question, or I might just be an inquisitive idiot, but could the Watts Link work if you placed it on its side on top of the axle? Like if you took the axle as it sits and rotated the pinion down to the ground, that orientation. Just curious. If it would work in that orientation, you'd be able to connect both links to the upper part of the frame. Loving the series. The new format is a little to get used to but it looks like you guys are getting it dialed in. I like it, keep up the good work.
Put the center pivot at the top of diff housing, will kick both arms up, the top arm will be level with rail and bottom arm will sit 6 inch higher
Or, crank the bottom arm so it come up further for mounting point, yes you will have to rework geometry but will give good end result IF you work out peroperly
My Rover sd1 had that,in the early 80s
Reliant scimitar gte's had it in the late 60's I think
1 question about the reverse 4 link. Say you wanna drag race or just have higher horsepower. How does this setup apply power to the frame. With a regular 4 link you can set the instant center above or below center of front tire and it will make the tire bite more or less. Curious to what the instant center will be at ride height on this truck
I just hope he does NOT get hurt driving that backwards 4 link....
I don’t think this is a drag setup.
I think the worst that would happen is a whole lot of wheel hop. But if he has the frame mounts at or below the axle, it should still hook up. The setup you would want would be the opposite of a standard 4 link.
This design has an infinite instant center. There is no rotation of the axle as it bumps and droops.
For anti-squat, which I what I think you are talking about when you are referencing "bite", it depends solely on the angle of the lower links links compared to the angle of the 100% anti squat line. The 100% line is found by drawing a line from the ground under the center of the rear axle to the height of the center of gravity at the center of the front axle. If the rear lower links are at this same angle then the anti-squat is 100%. If the rear links are flatter than the 100% line then the anti-squat is less that 100%. If the links are steeper, then anti-squat is greater than 100%.
In this setup (rear mounted parallel four link) the anti-squat will be positive when the links are higher at the axle than the frame, and negative when the arms are lower at the axle than the frame. I am assuming anti-squat will end up being positive at ride height, but we will see.
Peter Bingham zero wheel hop with this setup
did you see how ford did their watts link on the grand marque?
You mean, the RIGHT way? No, obviously he didn't.
Noob question: why would it be wrong to put the tab in the same place on the left side (wheel arch) and bend the lower link up to meet it?
That would instantly bind.
The pivot location is the critical part. It makes no difference what the bars do. The ends of the link don't know if the bar they are attached to are straight or crooked, and they don't care, they follow the same arc either way.
Why did you box the rear... you could have easily angled it
"Easy" is a point of view based on the person doing the job vs. the person not doing the job. Theres always a reason. Just wait...
How does this system behave when only one side is raised and lowered like hitting a pothole or speed bump?
It won't be effected. That center pivot bushing will stay right where it is and the tire effected will move up or down and the axle will stay aligned just fine. This system is actually better for axle alignment than compared to a panhard bar since it keeps the axle moving straight up and down instead of in an arc and the 4 link is better than leafs since it will severely reduce axle wrap or hop. This should be a very solid set up when it's all burned in and complete
patrick ezuma axle wrap could be controlled by similar mechanisms on the axle where the original perchs were
I'm curious, Why is the differential in front of the 4 link? I've never seen it done like that before. What is the advantage?
People usually do rear mount 4 links because there isn't room up front. Link on a car, that is where the seat or floor pan would be. So you can do a reverse mount because there is usually nothing behind the wheel.
@@zososldier Interesting. Thanks
@@onebadsavage26 yeah, I personally think he is gonna put this frame under a car.
How far back is the delay? Just wondering i thought u already did this from your Instagram pics
Weeks. We already have the body structure built and im working on the front suspension now.
@@TheFabricatorSeries oh dam lol
I was wondering all the tig welders you have used. Do u have like a top 10 ? Or something like that?
👍
I like watching some of your stuff, but you don't seem like you would be very fun to work with
why didn't you just short the axle arch to make the down pieces of the arch line up with the watts link, you have plenty of room for the bags on the front of the axle?
Lack of planning and clear vision. (I'll see myself out)
I keep looking at the rear trailing arms that are mounted behind the rear axle. It looks like the rear pinion angle is going to be at an increasingly BAD angle as the rear suspension moves through its travel. The further the rear end extends downward....the worse the pinion angle is. You may have to limit your travel with limiting straps or by some other means. I am a car fanatic and I have NEVER seen a rear suspension setup like this. Thanks for always including the math and geometry associated with building the parts.
Yeah pinion angle is gonna be a disaster on this thing. I keep hearing about "carefully calculated" design here. . .but I'm not seeing it.
Pinion angle will be locked in place if it's an equal length parallel 4 link.
@@zososldier yes, but IS IT?
@@Rileymanification it looks like an equal length equal separation parallel 4 link.
If it is, the pinion angle might change by 1 degree at most if set up correctly
@@zososldier Correct, though for handling purposes, I am not at all sure what the deal with the trailing/backwards links is all about. Slightly unequal 4 links are quite common, giving anti squat and/or positive weight transfer under acceleration and braking. I guess it's just the fact that this whole thing looks kludgy and underplanned to me.
How many have to like before watching.. otherwise you forget?
Lol
With your voice, you should take over from Johnny Cash.
This is an interesting setup. When you say the suspension is "at half-travel" do you mean the suspension is at nominal ride height?
Rik Burt It could be, but not necessary. The important thing is half way of possible movement/travel.
To expand on Jasper Walls explanation, he chose half travel on his suspension because the watts link has "travel" too. So you want your watts link bars and 4 link bars both parallel to the ground at half travel so both systems have the same "swing" with full compression and extension.
Now his "normal" ride hight could be any where in it's travel but typically if you are building your own chassic and suspension from the ground up you pick half travel as your ride hight. Not always depending on application.
@Rik Burt by building it at “half travel”, or essentially ride height, you can put all the joints in a neutral position, so as travel changes and the joints move, they’re less likely to bind before they run out of travel. On road builds are a bit different than off road, as the travel is only a few inches vs 12-30” for the off road world.
Either way, it’s a good practice, because it helps to avoid cutting things back apart later on.
I'd have gone with using spacers .... far less messing about.
Who is Watts?
What's the advantage of reversing the four link,
Space...
No advantages at all. Forward would have been way better
It really depends on the chassis.
On some vehicles, a forward parallel 4 link can run into body clearance issues (resulting in having to cut floor panels and not everyone wants to give up foot/seat space) or some frames are super wide and will narrow after the axle.
I personally think he is working on this frame to go under an old car body due to the fact he cut the standard upswept "truck frame" rails and added a flatter "car style" back half. But we will have to wait and see because it's a secret.
@@dragsbody209 depends on the build.
@@zososldier
Thanks for responding...
A Panhard bar would have worked fine I believe. This setup does have a cool factor though.
Panhard bar is much simpler, but creates assymetric travel due to the swing of the bar creating an arc path on only 1 side. Watts linkage is more complex, but provides true centered vertical travel.
Ronald Smith funny. It works fine. Been doing it for decades.
Fancy-Dancy and time consuming plus the added weight. Still up in the air on this.
Terry Hudspeth too heavy, too many moving parts for wear or failure, too heavy. But still cool and the correct application in some cases.
@@sidgar1 quick-change rear end friendly?
The factory frame is curved and the you have this cube in the back . No imagination. I expected more from a fully equipped fab shop
Wouldn’t that be called a z link?
Watts link or a pan bar what’s the difference
Watts link keeps it dead-centre and travel is vertical, a Panhard rod lets it move in an arc; admittedly a very shallow arc but an arc nonetheless.
Lanyard is easier to make adjustable roll center, multiple or slotted hole on the chassis mount
Iv been watching your videos for a log time and I'm not a dumb person but you make me feel like one lol I think your a fantastic welder and fabricator but soon as you start talking witch is fast by the way lol but it's good it's just I don't care dumb and dumber you make me feel I could watch your videos all day I was going to try and do my own channel just to make stuff out of things that ppl don't want wood metal anything really but I I really can not get my head around editing I'm just not one for PC or laptop Iv got about 20 videos but stumped on the editing so never mind one day maybe lol the thing is to I say I can and I can not weld iv taken a lot that you talk about then you come out with new stuff all I can say is top man all the best and keep safe mate
That's gotta be the ugliest back half, so boxy.
Agreed he has that plasma table and could of cut nice profiles boxed them he is after all the fabrication channel
Built the watts like backwards too. The links pivot should be on the frame, NOT the axle.
@@Rileymanification its not backwards. This is a normal layout.
When all you do is complain and drive a Corolla
I want to do this with my Silverado. I already have everything for the 4 link bars. I just need material for a panhard bar and brackets. You should show a small how to with a panhard bar and how to set it up properly for those who do a panhard bar over a watts link.
Watts link is so much better but panhard bar is easier to make.
Buy pedantic publishings book.
i had time to waste and i recreated this suspension in a game named dream car builder hehehe
are you interested in a video ? (slow mo over bump ?)
only bad thing about the game is the amount of overlaping tube needed for it to work :S
Edit1: i can see why the math is important since i cannot pre-rotate the center piece on the axle hehe
Edit2: i made it more clear and now i own it hehehe i cheated by adjusting the shock strengh to make the link paralelle when resting . give good result :D
Hi great video as always! Just been reading some of the comments and apparently your doing it all wrong!!! apparently just to pre warm you, the four link and watts bar is prone to failure on the track or when raced, And also apparently you shouldn’t weld to an axle!!!! Unsure how the original furniture is attached to them? Bubble gum?? But
I must have missed something somewhere as I thought the build was a low ass bagged truck with all original dirty Diesel engined chug along! kinda thing you take for a drive down the strip with the bumper lower than the lambos just because you can! Loving the progress and cannot wait to see how she turns out! Keep up the great work, we all appreciate getting to watch it!
Oh my. You're doing a reverse 4 link?? That's the absolute worst one to go with. Oh no.
You're missing the muffler bearing
Dude, a properly designed watts link should ALWAYS have the pivot on the frame. It's much simpler to do it properly, then all you have to do is attached the ends of the links to the axle. Read some books on suspension design please, I prefer Carrol Smith's literature.
You are a great fabricator and welder, Justin, possible the best on YT and certainly the best teacher/tutor, but I think you skipped the suspension design classes, or at least the explaining part 😉
With lateral forces they are applied equally through the Watt's linkage - one link is compressive and one is tensile - each half the force applied force between the differential and chassis. On that, the lower chassis link is going to have negligible fore-aft loading, and really needed to be braced for lateral loads, but that looks like it 'shouldn't' bend unless the axle gets a really substantial whack, and then you'll have more than that to worry about.
With longitudinal leaf (AKA semi-eliptical) springs, the axle moves in an approximate arc around the fixed eye (AKA shackle), with the other end designed to be free to move forward and backwards while relatively restricted laterally, so the parallel arms should have been trailing.
Still looking forward to the final result, as there are some good reasons for your setup.
Your set up is not correct. At mid travel the watts link pivot arm should not be vertical, it should be at one extreme of travel. The geometry in this video is not correct.
Its great to see you are human - nice work too