I don't think most people think that DB invented shonen, it's popularity just created a popular shift in the direction that the industry went in after it's creation.
I em pretty sure most of them are at least aware of Astro Boy, even tho that series was not the first one either that sad, Astro Boy was the first anime to ever be released in the USA, just like how Speed Racer was the first anime in color to get a US release
@@CZAR_Vocalsthey did invent metal as we know it, you could argue that Led Zeppelin laid the groundwork though or even that Helter Skelter (a Beatles track) was the first metal song
I don’t think most people genuinely think DB created shonen, just that it was the most influential and it is. It both popularized already existing tropes and introduced *new* tropes.
Great video, well-researched, well-scripted, and well-edited! Plus, as the translator on the fan project to translate Gaki Daisho, I'm always happy to see it be brought up in the discourse, and of all the videos I've seen it in I feel yours did it the most justice. I really feel like the series overall is concerned with what power is, and it comes to several different answers as Mankichi grows and experiences more. It gets more and more political in this theme as the manga goes past what we've made available translated, and especially during the parts that Motomiya was forced to write past his original end to the series (there's an arc in which the villain is an American tycoon who manufactures an oil crisis in Japan to make them dependent on his company), but it generally centers around the idea that people can do far more together than they ever could alone, and I think that definitely laid the groundwork for the themes of friendship as you pointed out. Motomiya's other manga explore those ideas in way different directions than the "Jump lineage" took it; for example, Obora Ichidai has a villain who's a Mankichi-like character that attained power through his charisma and winning people over to his side, only he wants to use that power to make Japan a military dictatorship. I'm genuinely glad more people are being able to get introduced to his work now, and frustrated at the roadblocks in the project beyond my control that are keeping it from being completed. Fun fact: Before becoming a manga artist, Motomiya was in the self-defense force and was buddies there with Buronson (by the way, his pen name's pronounced like "Bronson" with a Japanese accent, because there was an inside joke among his friends that he looked like Charles Bronson) who would go on to write Fist of the North Star. After Motomiya started his career, he gave Buronson a job as his assistant, but since Buronson couldn't draw and never really tried to learn, he ended up being a freeloader in his office. Eventually Motomiya had enough and gently suggested that if Buronson couldn't draw, he could at least try his hand at writing. The rest is history. Motomiya's manga Ore no Sora even has a homage to Buronson in the form of the main character's rival "Buson Yoshiyuki."
Glad to see someone who translated Gaki Daisho! I'm happy you enjoyed how I covered the series and thank you for your enthusiasm regarding the manga. Always love to see translators enjoy what they're working on! Also hearing about what's in store for Gaki Daisho has me really interested. A sneak peak at what's to come is very exciting! I appreciate the information about Motomiya and his other manga. I'm interested in a lot of his work, but a villian like Mankichi sounds especially awesome.
Very cool to see an ambitious project done over a long period of time finally hit fruition. Even having been familiar with a lot of the ideas in the video, seeing it in motion still completely engaged me to the point that the minor hiccups didn't diminish my experience. Very valuable and important stuff to have in video form, well sourced/researched, and also entertaining through the jokes in script and editing. Nice job!
I also think Fist of the North Star is still influential. Not in terms of male character designs but in terms of story beats. I mean Eiichiro Oda from One Piece clearly loves that Jagi Mask that one character reveal is a beat-by-beat homage to Jagi’s reveal.
Fist of the North Star is so criminally underrated to the point sadly no one appreciates its Greatness because of not being well imported to the west as how Dragon ball was,but its still known in japan and considered one of the most important mangas
@@theblackswordsman1998same with kinnikuman. Which is weird because it did come here long before dragonball through the m.u.s.c.l.e men dolls and the nes game but they censored and changed the lore, then ultimate muscle came out but no one knew all three of those things were connected
I'd say Fist of the North Star inspired seinen more than it did shonen, which makes sense considering it has a more mature style than stuff like Kinnikuman or Dragon Ball. But yeah that doesn't mean other shonen weren't inspired by it, I mean Bo-bobo was literally a surreal parody of it
1) DragonBall is a 70s/80s show. It just didn't leave Japan until the 90s. 2) Bold of you to assume the average shounen Andy even knows time existed before 1989.
Thank you for this video. As much as I do greatly enjoy the Dragon Ball series, I'm so beyond bored of every person out there saying it's the father of Shonen or where Shonen started. Can't wait to dive into this, for now take a like!!
Good ass video, really enjoyed learning about the history behind works like Otoko Ippiki Gaki Daisho and Ring ni Kakero, definitely will be checking them out later!
great video chief. love to see more videos by ppl so curious and passionate about the history of manga and anime. also your editing clears mine by a mile i gotta get like you bro
It’s so wild hearing about Ultimate Muscle in 2024. I watched it on Kix when I was a kid. I didn’t even realise it was anime at the time but I definitely remember loving it. Kinda makes me wanna go back and watch it as I’ve forgotten most of what happened
Thanks for mentioning Otoko Ippiki Gaki Daisho, I've been obsessed with this manga lately. Damn thing is an absolute classic and it sucks that it's so overlooked nowadays. Anyways I wanna mention that Rappa/Trumpet was voiced by none other than Masako Nozawa herself in the anime.
that was great. no matter what you might've felt in the end - i still found this to be an important dissemination of information on the subject of the manga medium. the medium of anime in opposition of that was very, very niche by then by comparison. & it still had semblances of that carried through in even the last decade - & i think people need to actively take heed of that. thank you
This is a great video, glad to see more respect put on the Goats Fist of the North star and Kinikuman,they walked so that Dragon Ball, Jojo and the later Shonen inspired by them could run
This case of Dragon Ball reminded me, how Family Guy made joke about they copied The Simpsons, with shows before both of them were the Flintsones and Simpsons copied ideas from it's predecessors as well.
I was aware of some of what you talked about, but you still brought a new perspective I wasn't aware of. Knew a little bit about Otoko Ippiki, but your words have interested me in checking it out more. You're the first time I've heard about Astro Kyuudan. It was great to see your thoughts on Kinnikuman, which you had a lot to say on even if you seem to seem to have had issues with. Also great to see your homage to Dragonball at the end. Great video, and I hope you keep making more, MG
I'm really happy to hear you got something new out of the video! I was worried about people who actually know most of what I talk about because I still wanted to entertain that audience as well. So it's nice to have some validation that I did a good job.
*THANK YOU!!!!* . this is the same mangaka that continuously called himself lazy so much that his how to draw and write manga book said in the title by a lazy artist. He's super talented, coupled with his laziness is why his works were so easy to hit a bigger mainstream audience than kinnikuman and western audiences who were new to manga to begin with. Again rip toriyama
Thank you for this for the title alone. Toriyama didn't invent shounen. Anno didn't reinvent mecha. Gundam didn't popularise or significantly mature mecha. There exists more out there beyond what you saw on Toonami, Fox, and Warner broadcast networks between 1994-2010.
@@thorscape3879 I'd love to know what you think people refer to when they say Gundam matured Mecha if not the fact that Gundam created the real robot genre.
@@Peasham I'd say that it was one in a series of shows that brought greater realism to mecha and ultimately synthesized the foundations for what we now know as real robots. What I will never say and what is my original argument that you have no refutation for is that Gundam didn't invent mecha as I have heard many times before. Now engage with my argument if you have a counter to this or don't respond. There is no gotcha here.
@@thorscape3879 Except every real robot show you could cite was specifically inspired by Gundam. You originally argued against Gundam having matured mecha and popularizing it, not against Gundam inventing mecha, and I'm not here to argue that Gundam popularized mecha, but I am specifically talking about the claim you made that Gundam didn't mature mecha, despite it creating a genre of mecha that is by definition more mature than the mecha that came before.
Just really goes to show how much the perception of Animanga history has been warped by what does and doesn't get brought over here. Also nice Astro Kyudan rep here. Always been wanting to read that one forever.
Masami Kurumada should also be recognized for his works (especially Saint Seiya) influencing the battle shonen genre, alongside Toriyama's Dragon Ball.
This is an amazing video, keep going make more videos like this, maybe try making same type of video for every genre, like scifi, mystery and horror, etc. don't be let down by the low count of views, you will blow up and just make a bank of good videos like these so when you blow up people have a lot of your stuff to watch and cement your channel in their memory.
I Didn’t want to watch this at first because i was looking for another video then clicked on this on accident and the title seemed dodgy, but hear I am like 47 minutes in, and left a like and fully engaged😭😭😭
Great video, but I don't know how you went through the Fist of the North Star section without mentioning Toriko. That series was essentially bringing back the style, manliness and extreme violence of Kinnikuman, FotNS and JoJo, but using the modern battle shonen formula of Big 3 era series, a giant world of adventure and scale as crazy as Dragon Ball's but actually visible. It even used the Kinnikuman idea of using reader suggested monsters, plants or food of all sorts, including some really important ones.
that was the most informative video on battle shonem influences i've ever seen, i also couldn't help but notice your takes about OG kinnikuman and that you haven't yet read the revival material, so i'm just gonna say this, i had similar feelings about the OG kinnikuman when it comes to the authors pushing the envelope about how much friendship power can affect the plot, and the amount of contrivances the plot can have sometimes, but that's exactly why i think every reader who went through the OG should read the revival, simply because the Revival BLOWS UP the OG out of the water in pretty much any technical aspect of storytelling, structure, character writing, set ups, world building, it pretty much is a modern take of OG kinnikuman, i would always recomend, if not for the story, at least to see how much the duo evolved in his craft along the years, hope you can read it one day or watch the new anime
I really appreciate the shout out to the work I did for The Ages of Jump, because it was an absurd amount of work and even then I wound up returning to it for two more runs (Ages of Jump Redux in 2018 & Ages of Jump Encore in 2023) just to fill in notable gaps I had from that initial run. There's so much history when it comes to manga, and videos like this are what's needed in order to help share it with others who would otherwise never know about it. I will say, though, that complaining about the Ring ni Kakero 1 anime skipping over the early part by comparing it to Dragon Ball is a bit of a false equivalence, because most of the world DID get into Dragon Ball by skipping over the early part, because they all started with Dragon Ball Z, not the OG Dragon Ball anime. The early parts of RnK are very good, yes, but so little of it actually plays a major role in the grand scheme of things, especially when it comes to introducing the actual major supporting cast, so the RnK1 anime is a good entry point. At least, it was for me roughly 20 years ago.
No problem! It was the least I could do for how much I was helped by your writing. There were topics I almost completely overlooked before having read your blog posts and in my mind your categorization is the most clear of what I've seen.
I deeply recommend you to check Kinnikuman 2011. It fixes all problems you mentioned with the classic series for the sake of a more refined narrative with stronger internal logic.
A lot of western anime fans simply don't want to stop and consider Jumps history as a whole or that the perspective they grew up with isn't the definitive truth
Even if you've never seen the original anime, I'd still recommend at least trying Perfect Origin Arc. It and the arcs afterward actively expand on the ideas laid down by the original series and explore deeper themes than just Good vs. Evil. Heck the original endings' theme of knowing your opponent is heavily explored within it. I actually think you'd like it (however I do wish the original series was more accessible...). Also thanks for reminding me because Suguru ripping off his dad's sideburns made me genuinely laugh out loud when I first read it.
OMG YES. Perfect Origin Arc is one of the best arc in Battle manga ever, up there with Hunter x Hunter Ant arc and Jojo part 7, it's just that good. Character development, expanded lore, nuance and complex theme and characters. Kinnikuman author cooked so hard after more than 20 years, he come back and gives us bangers, and every arc after that is just getting better. Well that just my subjective opinions, feel free to proved me wrong.
A very beautiful and focused video. I learned a lot. And this did not feel like it was against Dragon Ball or Toriyama-Sensei in any way. Truly he was a genius to pull on the roots of the series that came before to create and perfect his masterpiece. My he be in out hearts forever.
Kinnikuman is my Number 1 example of media that I really enjoy, but will not recommend to other people. However, now that Brocken Junior has been sanitised (the character wasn't a problem per se, but the design sure as hell was), I'm just happy I can show Kinnikuman to my friends without having to explain that "I swear the literal card-carrying ratzi wearing the pinwheel shirt at the children's festival isn't an amoral monster, Yudetamago just literally did not know about the holocaust"
Awesome video. I’ve heard of those OG series from TrentinArt’s “History of Weekly Jump” videos, but it was nice to get a full, concise breakdown of each series. My favorite aspect of Dragon Ball, and one of its most unique features compared to other Shounen battle manga in my opinion, is how we see all of the characters at several different ages. We see our main character grow old and have children, who also age and have children. I know this was a big worry for Torishima when Toriyama first made the choice. I’m surprised you didn’t mention this at all, any opinion?
I honestly just forgot about that 😅 Dragon ball is 100% the reason Jump is okay with characters growing up and having a design change. Which is pretty major for titles in the 2000s should've mentioned that for sure
@@LiterallyJustMG Word! It was a long, thorough video nonetheless. I was hoping you weren’t going to respond with “Actually he stole that completely from ____” haha
Ashita no joe is older than dragon ball, it influenced ALMOST every manga at that time. And ashita no joe objectively is better written than dragon ball, heck I would say joe yabuki >>> thorfinn,guts and luffy as a mc.
@@dinogt8477 debatable, ashita no joe influenced alot of big stuff and things in Japan at that time,and ashita no joe might have influenced dragon ball as well.
@@dinogt8477 I love how Dragon Ball fans don't understand the difference between popular and important you could erase Dragon Ball from history and we would still have all the same shonen in manga we do today you can't say the same for Ashita No Joe we would be missing a lot without Joe in Dragon Balls popularity is useless anyway since one piece sold way more manga so if you want to be an annoying fanboy you can just say one piece is better than everything else because it's literally the best-selling manga in the entire Earth
I first found out about Otoko Ippiki Gaki Daisho and Astro Kyudan (alongside some other older Shonen Jump titles) thanks to "Famicom Jump: Hero Retsuden" still surprised by how some of those series were apparently popular enough to get featured in a big crossover videogame, yet not popular enough to get an anime or live-action adaptation
Gaki Daisho has an anime, and Astro Kyuudan has a live action. Don't know much about Astro Kyuudan's live action, but Gaki Daisho's anime is pretty different from what I can tell. I do wish that one in particular was still popular enough to get another adaptation that's more faithful to the source material.
Never really thought about it but from what Ive seen of plot descriptions of Ring Ni Kakero. Ryuji could be seen as one of origin points of the Yugi Moto or Midoriya archetypes of weak characters growing into ideal heroes.
That's honestly really interesting! It's easier to see some character archetypes being popularized by Suguru, Ken, and Goku. But I never thought of what Ryuuji may have started in Jump
Didn't watch the whole video. Sorry. But did you mention "Locke, the Superman" (超人ロック, Chōjin Rokku) by any chance? The main character of that Japanese manga (and anime!), sort of, kind of, looks like Goku on his Super Saiyan form. Inspiration? Copy? You decide.
i have never heard someone say dragon ball invented Shonen, people usually say it popularized it which is true its the same thing with superman, he didn't create superheroes but he popularized it.
I personally have never heard nor seen anyone say that Dragon Ball invented Shonen. It is true, however, that Dragon Ball is the father of modern battle Shonen. How do we know this? Because nearly every big Shonen mangaka who's come after has claimed Akria Toriyama and his Dragon Ball series as their biggest inspiration. That being said, this was an excellent video. It's dense with content, well researched, and was quite informative - I myself learned a lot.
Your only mistake is not mentioning what was happening outside the Jump Magazine. Otoko Ippiki for example would only come out several months after Joe was already captivating everyone and they look uncanningly similar in signature, themes and character archetypes
"Can you imagine an adaptation of Dragon Ball not showing Vegeta as an antagonist?" I mean most of us in the west were only exposed to Z without watching the original Dragon Ball, so we essentially never got to see Piccolo as an antagonist which causes his character arc to hit way less hard.
I say yes. I mean it's toriyamas art style combined with his laziness (he said it not me. In fact he said it so much he even made a how to draw manga where he calls himself that) that makes it easy to follow for a mass audience and foreigners. Kinnikuman might be goofier than dragonball but more thought was put into it, for example when Kinnikuman introduced power levels they put lore to it and used mathematical formulation to counter the enemy's bigger power level (this is a shonen landscape a whole decade before hunter x hunter) meanwhile dragonball apes off Kinnikumans use of power levels (among maaaany other things) but their approach is no lore, just A has a bigger power than B but B is hiding true strength so power levels are pointless. Combine that with Toriyamas art and approach to action makes it obvious why it was more noticeable
You're wrong. Dragonball didn't just invent shonen but invented martial arts. No one even knew how to throw a punch until Dragonball came out. Goku was also the first black president.
Didn't invented it but defined and influenced most of the shonen that came after. The value of DB is not to be the first, but the one who most influenced the rest. Like The Lord of the Rings in medieval fantasy, Edgar Alan Poe with the horror genre or the original Star Wars trilogy with space fantasy.
Exactly. Dragon Ball is like that one really successful cousin you have in terms of Shonen. It wasn't the first of them all, but it was definitely the one that popularized certain 'tropes' the most. Transformations mid-battle that characters can willingly toggle and tournament arcs come to mind.
@@dandy5175 Not all of them since fullmetal alchemist brotherhood and AOT stray away of those trope and even vinland saga. It didn't defined it per say since most of those already existed before especially fist of the north star which dbz borrowed alot of the trope from there with few addition.
Honestly I wanted to throw shade at how most people started at Z and still think its perfectly fine to do so (even though its no longer out of their hands), but I decided against it 😭
I mean fist of the northtars style had existed in the 70s prior. A series called violence jack was pretty much the same thing even down to the post apocalyotic aesthetic albiet so erroneously gruesome it makes berserk look like a shonen, despitejack being a shonen itself. In fact it was so horrifying it made me stop trying to self delete myself
I use a lot of different tracks so I'm not sure which one you mean 😅 But here's the document with both the sources and music, so you can hopefully figure out which one was ringing the bell docs.google.com/document/d/1HODpmyeaK0VftRzEQgt_Yg2QhDY_Ny8_S-WWsESx9eI/edit?usp=sharing
I don't think most people think that DB invented shonen, it's popularity just created a popular shift in the direction that the industry went in after it's creation.
Yeah I’ve never heard someone say DB invented shonen maybe you could say modern shonen
12 to 13 year old american boys often do
@@johnjohn2570 I actually did hear it quite often during the 2000s and early 2010s
You're lucky to not even heard it once.
Agreed. Dragon ball didn’t invent the battle shonen genre but influenced it in a very different direction than it would have otherwise
People saying Dragon Ball invented shonen are like those boomers that think Speed Racer was the first anime ever created.
Or those boomers that say Metallica invited metal and therefore we gotta respect them lol
I em pretty sure most of them are at least aware of Astro Boy, even tho that series was not the first one either
that sad, Astro Boy was the first anime to ever be released in the USA, just like how Speed Racer was the first anime in color to get a US release
@@Dr.Mlieko Astro Boy was the first anime, even if it wasn't the first animated Japanese show or movie
@@CZAR_Vocalsthey did invent metal as we know it, you could argue that Led Zeppelin laid the groundwork though or even that Helter Skelter (a Beatles track) was the first metal song
@@Trotoloko Technically the Minna no Uta shorts and Instant History predate Astro Boy
I love how this basically became a Kinnikuman retrospective(for the most part)
I'm glad it was, I love Kinikuman and Ultimate Muscle.
@@justinarzola4584he's a better father than goku
Goku ain't anywhere near as bad as Mayumi though.@@pheunithpsychic-watertype9881
I don’t think most people genuinely think DB created shonen, just that it was the most influential and it is. It both popularized already existing tropes and introduced *new* tropes.
Exactly
Facts. #ThankYouToriyama
i have seen plenty of people online that 100% believe it did
@@Mardanzo And they are without a doubt a vocal minority.
@@thelettucebarrel7784 they aren't
Great video, well-researched, well-scripted, and well-edited! Plus, as the translator on the fan project to translate Gaki Daisho, I'm always happy to see it be brought up in the discourse, and of all the videos I've seen it in I feel yours did it the most justice. I really feel like the series overall is concerned with what power is, and it comes to several different answers as Mankichi grows and experiences more. It gets more and more political in this theme as the manga goes past what we've made available translated, and especially during the parts that Motomiya was forced to write past his original end to the series (there's an arc in which the villain is an American tycoon who manufactures an oil crisis in Japan to make them dependent on his company), but it generally centers around the idea that people can do far more together than they ever could alone, and I think that definitely laid the groundwork for the themes of friendship as you pointed out. Motomiya's other manga explore those ideas in way different directions than the "Jump lineage" took it; for example, Obora Ichidai has a villain who's a Mankichi-like character that attained power through his charisma and winning people over to his side, only he wants to use that power to make Japan a military dictatorship. I'm genuinely glad more people are being able to get introduced to his work now, and frustrated at the roadblocks in the project beyond my control that are keeping it from being completed.
Fun fact: Before becoming a manga artist, Motomiya was in the self-defense force and was buddies there with Buronson (by the way, his pen name's pronounced like "Bronson" with a Japanese accent, because there was an inside joke among his friends that he looked like Charles Bronson) who would go on to write Fist of the North Star. After Motomiya started his career, he gave Buronson a job as his assistant, but since Buronson couldn't draw and never really tried to learn, he ended up being a freeloader in his office. Eventually Motomiya had enough and gently suggested that if Buronson couldn't draw, he could at least try his hand at writing. The rest is history. Motomiya's manga Ore no Sora even has a homage to Buronson in the form of the main character's rival "Buson Yoshiyuki."
Glad to see someone who translated Gaki Daisho! I'm happy you enjoyed how I covered the series and thank you for your enthusiasm regarding the manga. Always love to see translators enjoy what they're working on! Also hearing about what's in store for Gaki Daisho has me really interested. A sneak peak at what's to come is very exciting! I appreciate the information about Motomiya and his other manga. I'm interested in a lot of his work, but a villian like Mankichi sounds especially awesome.
Very cool to see an ambitious project done over a long period of time finally hit fruition. Even having been familiar with a lot of the ideas in the video, seeing it in motion still completely engaged me to the point that the minor hiccups didn't diminish my experience. Very valuable and important stuff to have in video form, well sourced/researched, and also entertaining through the jokes in script and editing. Nice job!
I also think Fist of the North Star is still influential. Not in terms of male character designs but in terms of story beats.
I mean Eiichiro Oda from One Piece clearly loves that Jagi Mask that one character reveal is a beat-by-beat homage to Jagi’s reveal.
Fist of the North Star is so criminally underrated to the point sadly no one appreciates its Greatness because of not being well imported to the west as how Dragon ball was,but its still known in japan and considered one of the most important mangas
Also lets consider the fact that when Kenshiro and Raohs final battle took place,goku was still a kid fighting the red ribbon army,isnt that crazy?
@@theblackswordsman1998 I mean Musou Tensei is practically what Ultra Instinct is if you think about it
@@theblackswordsman1998same with kinnikuman. Which is weird because it did come here long before dragonball through the m.u.s.c.l.e men dolls and the nes game but they censored and changed the lore, then ultimate muscle came out but no one knew all three of those things were connected
I'd say Fist of the North Star inspired seinen more than it did shonen, which makes sense considering it has a more mature style than stuff like Kinnikuman or Dragon Ball. But yeah that doesn't mean other shonen weren't inspired by it, I mean Bo-bobo was literally a surreal parody of it
Kinnikuman really deserves its flowers in the west, all people know over here is ultimate muscle but its so much more.
It sucks that it's chance was denied at first because they censored and changed the lore of both the kinkeshis and the tag team game for the nes
Ashita no Joe is such a GOATed manga.
It's number 1 for me
praying for kinnikuman to spike in popularity like Baki so we can get people on the streets wearing Benkiman shirts.
Well I don't have benkiman shirts but I do have kinnikuman shirts a cap and figures. And next I want the shoes
I thought this was Obvious.
Like anyone who watches anime past the 90s, such as 70s/80s you'll find a lot of Shounens that predate dragon ball
1) DragonBall is a 70s/80s show. It just didn't leave Japan until the 90s.
2) Bold of you to assume the average shounen Andy even knows time existed before 1989.
@@thorscape3879not 70s
@@Schizo_Ty You're right. For some reason I thought it started in '78.
@@thorscape3879 yeah it was 84
Kinnikuman is the grandfather of shonen, and I’m happy to be a fan of such a unique series.
This is a very well put together video. Thank you so much for actually doing research! Looking forward to your future projects.
Thank you for this video. As much as I do greatly enjoy the Dragon Ball series, I'm so beyond bored of every person out there saying it's the father of Shonen or where Shonen started. Can't wait to dive into this, for now take a like!!
Good ass video, really enjoyed learning about the history behind works like Otoko Ippiki Gaki Daisho and Ring ni Kakero, definitely will be checking them out later!
I’m that fan who always yells “what about Kinnikuman?”
great video chief. love to see more videos by ppl so curious and passionate about the history of manga and anime. also your editing clears mine by a mile i gotta get like you bro
It’s so wild hearing about Ultimate Muscle in 2024. I watched it on Kix when I was a kid. I didn’t even realise it was anime at the time but I definitely remember loving it. Kinda makes me wanna go back and watch it as I’ve forgotten most of what happened
Man I completely forgot about Kix! Talk about a blast from the past haha
We also need to put respect on Tezuka and Ishinomori's names
Thanks for mentioning Otoko Ippiki Gaki Daisho, I've been obsessed with this manga lately. Damn thing is an absolute classic and it sucks that it's so overlooked nowadays.
Anyways I wanna mention that Rappa/Trumpet was voiced by none other than Masako Nozawa herself in the anime.
Kinnikuman deserves that title.
that was great. no matter what you might've felt in the end - i still found this to be an important dissemination of information on the subject of the manga medium. the medium of anime in opposition of that was very, very niche by then by comparison. & it still had semblances of that carried through in even the last decade - & i think people need to actively take heed of that. thank you
I didn’t know Masami Kuromada made a classic before Saint Seiya and B’t X!
This was a great documentary!
Exact same vibe as people who think Pokemon invented the Monster Collection genre.
Love all of your picks for background music, gosh it's so nostalgic to listen to the hitman reborn soundtrack again.
This is a great video, glad to see more respect put on the Goats Fist of the North star and Kinikuman,they walked so that Dragon Ball, Jojo and the later Shonen inspired by them could run
Implying Shonen Jump wasn't a thing before DB.
This case of Dragon Ball reminded me, how Family Guy made joke about they copied The Simpsons, with shows before both of them were the Flintsones and Simpsons copied ideas from it's predecessors as well.
It crazy that Masami Kurumada was able to create two shounen classics. I didn't know his other works that aren't saint seyia were successful.
3, Fuuma no Kojiro as well
Tiger Mask has the first appearance of most modern shonen tropes.
I thought this video had like a million views given the quality, great compilation and recommendation of older manga
Deja Vu, I have been in this place before.
*kansei dorifuto intensifies*
I was aware of some of what you talked about, but you still brought a new perspective I wasn't aware of.
Knew a little bit about Otoko Ippiki, but your words have interested me in checking it out more.
You're the first time I've heard about Astro Kyuudan.
It was great to see your thoughts on Kinnikuman, which you had a lot to say on even if you seem to seem to have had issues with.
Also great to see your homage to Dragonball at the end.
Great video, and I hope you keep making more, MG
I'm really happy to hear you got something new out of the video! I was worried about people who actually know most of what I talk about because I still wanted to entertain that audience as well. So it's nice to have some validation that I did a good job.
*THANK YOU!!!!* . this is the same mangaka that continuously called himself lazy so much that his how to draw and write manga book said in the title by a lazy artist. He's super talented, coupled with his laziness is why his works were so easy to hit a bigger mainstream audience than kinnikuman and western audiences who were new to manga to begin with. Again rip toriyama
the second I saw sugurus face in the thumbnail I knew the video was gonna be good
Thank you for this for the title alone.
Toriyama didn't invent shounen.
Anno didn't reinvent mecha.
Gundam didn't popularise or significantly mature mecha.
There exists more out there beyond what you saw on Toonami, Fox, and Warner broadcast networks between 1994-2010.
.. nah, Gundam actually did straight up invent the real robot genre, sorry lol.
@@Peasham I never said "real robot". I said "mecha". Learn to read.
@@thorscape3879 I'd love to know what you think people refer to when they say Gundam matured Mecha if not the fact that Gundam created the real robot genre.
@@Peasham I'd say that it was one in a series of shows that brought greater realism to mecha and ultimately synthesized the foundations for what we now know as real robots.
What I will never say and what is my original argument that you have no refutation for is that Gundam didn't invent mecha as I have heard many times before.
Now engage with my argument if you have a counter to this or don't respond. There is no gotcha here.
@@thorscape3879 Except every real robot show you could cite was specifically inspired by Gundam. You originally argued against Gundam having matured mecha and popularizing it, not against Gundam inventing mecha, and I'm not here to argue that Gundam popularized mecha, but I am specifically talking about the claim you made that Gundam didn't mature mecha, despite it creating a genre of mecha that is by definition more mature than the mecha that came before.
Just really goes to show how much the perception of Animanga history has been warped by what does and doesn't get brought over here.
Also nice Astro Kyudan rep here. Always been wanting to read that one forever.
You wouldnt believe how many Dragon Ball fans Ive argued with about this
Don't even bother
How did you talk about Kinnikuman that long and not mention it starting Power Levels?
43:14
Masami Kurumada should also be recognized for his works (especially Saint Seiya) influencing the battle shonen genre, alongside Toriyama's Dragon Ball.
THIS VIDEO IS GREAT AF, ALGORITHM WTF ARE YOU DOING?? BOOST IT MORE
This is an amazing video, keep going make more videos like this, maybe try making same type of video for every genre, like scifi, mystery and horror, etc. don't be let down by the low count of views, you will blow up and just make a bank of good videos like these so when you blow up people have a lot of your stuff to watch and cement your channel in their memory.
Thank you. Kinnikuman gets no recognition I swear.
Some of y'all mfs never heard of Kinnikuman, and it shows.
I Didn’t want to watch this at first because i was looking for another video then clicked on this on accident and the title seemed dodgy, but hear I am like 47 minutes in, and left a like and fully engaged😭😭😭
This was a great video. I'll probably give some of them a read eventually like Otoko Ippiki Gaki Daisho. Also, what is the song at 57:36?
"Senjougahara Tore" from Bakemonogatari
Great video, but I don't know how you went through the Fist of the North Star section without mentioning Toriko.
That series was essentially bringing back the style, manliness and extreme violence of Kinnikuman, FotNS and JoJo, but using the modern battle shonen formula of Big 3 era series, a giant world of adventure and scale as crazy as Dragon Ball's but actually visible.
It even used the Kinnikuman idea of using reader suggested monsters, plants or food of all sorts, including some really important ones.
that was the most informative video on battle shonem influences i've ever seen, i also couldn't help but notice your takes about OG kinnikuman and that you haven't yet read the revival material, so i'm just gonna say this, i had similar feelings about the OG kinnikuman when it comes to the authors pushing the envelope about how much friendship power can affect the plot, and the amount of contrivances the plot can have sometimes, but that's exactly why i think every reader who went through the OG should read the revival, simply because the Revival BLOWS UP the OG out of the water in pretty much any technical aspect of storytelling, structure, character writing, set ups, world building, it pretty much is a modern take of OG kinnikuman, i would always recomend, if not for the story, at least to see how much the duo evolved in his craft along the years, hope you can read it one day or watch the new anime
Dragonball to manga is what Nirvana was like to Rock music back then. It popularized and spearheaded so many things coming from both properties.
I really appreciate the shout out to the work I did for The Ages of Jump, because it was an absurd amount of work and even then I wound up returning to it for two more runs (Ages of Jump Redux in 2018 & Ages of Jump Encore in 2023) just to fill in notable gaps I had from that initial run. There's so much history when it comes to manga, and videos like this are what's needed in order to help share it with others who would otherwise never know about it.
I will say, though, that complaining about the Ring ni Kakero 1 anime skipping over the early part by comparing it to Dragon Ball is a bit of a false equivalence, because most of the world DID get into Dragon Ball by skipping over the early part, because they all started with Dragon Ball Z, not the OG Dragon Ball anime. The early parts of RnK are very good, yes, but so little of it actually plays a major role in the grand scheme of things, especially when it comes to introducing the actual major supporting cast, so the RnK1 anime is a good entry point. At least, it was for me roughly 20 years ago.
No problem! It was the least I could do for how much I was helped by your writing. There were topics I almost completely overlooked before having read your blog posts and in my mind your categorization is the most clear of what I've seen.
I deeply recommend you to check Kinnikuman 2011. It fixes all problems you mentioned with the classic series for the sake of a more refined narrative with stronger internal logic.
A lot of western anime fans simply don't want to stop and consider Jumps history as a whole or that the perspective they grew up with isn't the definitive truth
Even if you've never seen the original anime, I'd still recommend at least trying Perfect Origin Arc. It and the arcs afterward actively expand on the ideas laid down by the original series and explore deeper themes than just Good vs. Evil. Heck the original endings' theme of knowing your opponent is heavily explored within it. I actually think you'd like it (however I do wish the original series was more accessible...).
Also thanks for reminding me because Suguru ripping off his dad's sideburns made me genuinely laugh out loud when I first read it.
OMG YES. Perfect Origin Arc is one of the best arc in Battle manga ever, up there with Hunter x Hunter Ant arc and Jojo part 7, it's just that good. Character development, expanded lore, nuance and complex theme and characters.
Kinnikuman author cooked so hard after more than 20 years, he come back and gives us bangers, and every arc after that is just getting better.
Well that just my subjective opinions, feel free to proved me wrong.
I just wish the original anime was more manga accurate tbh
I liked that you used sonic ost in your video since it's the series that was heavily influenced by dragon ball
I think if you wanted to be less disrespectful the title should be “The Contemporary Influences on Dragon Ball” or something like that.
I don’t think the title is disrespectful
1) Who said it's disrespectful?
2) Assuming it is disrespectful, who said that wasn't the intent?
It is not a disrecpectful to correct some wrong information regarding who really invented shonen.
Good essay.
Nice editing, and good reasoning.
Finally someone said it
Who are you? This is so good for being your first video. You're going to blow up, liked and subscribed!
Excellent video, hopefully the algorithm does it justice!
great video! i'd love to see more about other anime/manga genres and tropes!
Shouen & TLOU2 videos, instant sub, i dont even need to finish the video
A very beautiful and focused video. I learned a lot. And this did not feel like it was against Dragon Ball or Toriyama-Sensei in any way. Truly he was a genius to pull on the roots of the series that came before to create and perfect his masterpiece. My he be in out hearts forever.
Very disappointed in the exclusion of the gutsy frog. Is it being saved for a future 2 hour long video?
Kinnikuman is my Number 1 example of media that I really enjoy, but will not recommend to other people. However, now that Brocken Junior has been sanitised (the character wasn't a problem per se, but the design sure as hell was), I'm just happy I can show Kinnikuman to my friends without having to explain that "I swear the literal card-carrying ratzi wearing the pinwheel shirt at the children's festival isn't an amoral monster, Yudetamago just literally did not know about the holocaust"
Awesome video. I’ve heard of those OG series from TrentinArt’s “History of Weekly Jump” videos, but it was nice to get a full, concise breakdown of each series.
My favorite aspect of Dragon Ball, and one of its most unique features compared to other Shounen battle manga in my opinion, is how we see all of the characters at several different ages. We see our main character grow old and have children, who also age and have children. I know this was a big worry for Torishima when Toriyama first made the choice. I’m surprised you didn’t mention this at all, any opinion?
I honestly just forgot about that 😅 Dragon ball is 100% the reason Jump is okay with characters growing up and having a design change. Which is pretty major for titles in the 2000s should've mentioned that for sure
@@LiterallyJustMG Word! It was a long, thorough video nonetheless. I was hoping you weren’t going to respond with “Actually he stole that completely from ____” haha
Ashita no joe is older than dragon ball, it influenced ALMOST every manga at that time.
And ashita no joe objectively is better written than dragon ball, heck I would say joe yabuki >>> thorfinn,guts and luffy as a mc.
and yet dragon ball is still more important
@@dinogt8477 debatable, ashita no joe influenced alot of big stuff and things in Japan at that time,and ashita no joe might have influenced dragon ball as well.
@@dinogt8477nah, ashita no joe is better written.
@@dinogt8477 I love how Dragon Ball fans don't understand the difference between popular and important you could erase Dragon Ball from history and we would still have all the same shonen in manga we do today you can't say the same for Ashita No Joe we would be missing a lot without Joe in Dragon Balls popularity is useless anyway since one piece sold way more manga so if you want to be an annoying fanboy you can just say one piece is better than everything else because it's literally the best-selling manga in the entire Earth
@@siouxsiexymox6594 lie again
Man everyone knows ultimate muscle, mossier cheeks and all that. Mf even got a Netflix reboot
I first found out about Otoko Ippiki Gaki Daisho and Astro Kyudan (alongside some other older Shonen Jump titles) thanks to "Famicom Jump: Hero Retsuden"
still surprised by how some of those series were apparently popular enough to get featured in a big crossover videogame, yet not popular enough to get an anime or live-action adaptation
Gaki Daisho has an anime, and Astro Kyuudan has a live action. Don't know much about Astro Kyuudan's live action, but Gaki Daisho's anime is pretty different from what I can tell. I do wish that one in particular was still popular enough to get another adaptation that's more faithful to the source material.
@@LiterallyJustMG did not know about the Astro Kyudan live action series
Saw the first few Otoko Ippiki Gaki Daisho episodes
why you keep changing the title lmao
Never really thought about it but from what Ive seen of plot descriptions of Ring Ni Kakero. Ryuji could be seen as one of origin points of the Yugi Moto or Midoriya archetypes of weak characters growing into ideal heroes.
That's honestly really interesting! It's easier to see some character archetypes being popularized by Suguru, Ken, and Goku. But I never thought of what Ryuuji may have started in Jump
Great video man
We are so back
didn’t invent is but definitely perfected it!
Im the 100th subscriber hell yeah
No mention of Joe smh
Like Ring Ni Kakero was inspired by it
we should all thank sensei kurumada he's not one the goats for nothing ring ni kakero saint seiya kojiro etc
Didn't watch the whole video. Sorry. But did you mention "Locke, the Superman" (超人ロック, Chōjin Rokku) by any chance? The main character of that Japanese manga (and anime!), sort of, kind of, looks like Goku on his Super Saiyan form.
Inspiration?
Copy?
You decide.
1:33:55 the most notable one being super sonic
i have never heard someone say dragon ball invented Shonen, people usually say it popularized it which is true
its the same thing with superman, he didn't create superheroes but he popularized it.
That's not the concensus. The consensus is that it widely popularised tropes, and heavily influenced many of the battle shonen stories that came after
It may not have but it definitely made it what it was today
Why are these kinnikuman type retrospectives like over an hour it's like the 5th 1 I've seen so far
thats crazy u put sanda of all things for 'ongoing.' it ended a week before this video dropped, lol.
I personally have never heard nor seen anyone say that Dragon Ball invented Shonen. It is true, however, that Dragon Ball is the father of modern battle Shonen. How do we know this? Because nearly every big Shonen mangaka who's come after has claimed Akria Toriyama and his Dragon Ball series as their biggest inspiration.
That being said, this was an excellent video. It's dense with content, well researched, and was quite informative - I myself learned a lot.
Oh I have over the years
1:22:17 this isn't an anime but this remind of how sonic the hedgehog was created by the collaboration of 3 people
Did it invent shonen? Absolutely not, I doubt people even think so. Is it the most important shonen series of all time? Yes.
I believe, but not so sure, but was it Hokuto No Ken that introduced timeskips? Something Dragon Ball would later do a lot, and also a lot o series.
Your only mistake is not mentioning what was happening outside the Jump Magazine. Otoko Ippiki for example would only come out several months after Joe was already captivating everyone and they look uncanningly similar in signature, themes and character archetypes
Kinnikuman is MY shit
"Can you imagine an adaptation of Dragon Ball not showing Vegeta as an antagonist?"
I mean most of us in the west were only exposed to Z without watching the original Dragon Ball, so we essentially never got to see Piccolo as an antagonist which causes his character arc to hit way less hard.
I thought it just made it the genre more popular, no?
I say yes. I mean it's toriyamas art style combined with his laziness (he said it not me. In fact he said it so much he even made a how to draw manga where he calls himself that) that makes it easy to follow for a mass audience and foreigners. Kinnikuman might be goofier than dragonball but more thought was put into it, for example when Kinnikuman introduced power levels they put lore to it and used mathematical formulation to counter the enemy's bigger power level (this is a shonen landscape a whole decade before hunter x hunter) meanwhile dragonball apes off Kinnikumans use of power levels (among maaaany other things) but their approach is no lore, just A has a bigger power than B but B is hiding true strength so power levels are pointless. Combine that with Toriyamas art and approach to action makes it obvious why it was more noticeable
whats the manga too the right at 4:25? The one with the other student saying the dude is tall.
Taisho Otome Otogibanashi! Never finished the manga, but the anime was fairly underrated in the season it aired
You're wrong.
Dragonball didn't just invent shonen but invented martial arts. No one even knew how to throw a punch until Dragonball came out.
Goku was also the first black president.
what.....?
What the heck you talking about???
Goku was also the first ever black person to vote
@@60zn I remember being taught that in school. Easy to forget.
Bro did all that yapping just so he can NOT BRING UP ASTRO BOY. The inspiration for all Anime.
Didn't invented it but defined and influenced most of the shonen that came after. The value of DB is not to be the first, but the one who most influenced the rest. Like The Lord of the Rings in medieval fantasy, Edgar Alan Poe with the horror genre or the original Star Wars trilogy with space fantasy.
Exactly. Dragon Ball is like that one really successful cousin you have in terms of Shonen. It wasn't the first of them all, but it was definitely the one that popularized certain 'tropes' the most. Transformations mid-battle that characters can willingly toggle and tournament arcs come to mind.
@@dandy5175 Not all of them since fullmetal alchemist brotherhood and AOT stray away of those trope and even vinland saga. It didn't defined it per say since most of those already existed before especially fist of the north star which dbz borrowed alot of the trope from there with few addition.
Was not the first anime to be popularize in western society either since astro boy is too well known that even boomer know who he is.
I only need gyudon for the next 300 years man
36:57 Imagine Dragon Ball starting with Piccolo being friends with Goku and helping him to rescue his son instead of being his rival…oh, wait…
Honestly I wanted to throw shade at how most people started at Z and still think its perfectly fine to do so (even though its no longer out of their hands), but I decided against it 😭
@@LiterallyJustMG fair enough, hahaha
I mean fist of the northtars style had existed in the 70s prior. A series called violence jack was pretty much the same thing even down to the post apocalyotic aesthetic albiet so erroneously gruesome it makes berserk look like a shonen, despitejack being a shonen itself. In fact it was so horrifying it made me stop trying to self delete myself
Offtopic but what's the background music you used in the video?It sounds very familiar.
I use a lot of different tracks so I'm not sure which one you mean 😅 But here's the document with both the sources and music, so you can hopefully figure out which one was ringing the bell docs.google.com/document/d/1HODpmyeaK0VftRzEQgt_Yg2QhDY_Ny8_S-WWsESx9eI/edit?usp=sharing
What's the anime at 48:12?
Mashle