You literally have no idea about anything. Dragon ball super is the best iteration of dragon ball, FULL STOP. the only way you could possibly like it less is if you have an edging fetish because you watched frieza and goku talk about fighting each other for 4 hours straight over 30 episodes. Wow, how fun. Super is GOAT. Your opinion isn't even bad it's just wrong. I am the most correct person to ever exist, so if you disagree with me, you are wrong and not correct.
Meh at best, boring most of the time. Just answer a simple question: if it's so great why no characters from Moro and Granola's arc even appeared in VG when several of Daima already did ?
You right bra , but people insult super just because they got influenced by the mass of TH-camrs who gave their opinion, but objectively super is different than Z in a modern way
The difference was that Goku just lacked knowledge. When he met Bulma, he didn't know the difference between boys and girls but then was able to understand it enough to have 2 sons, and in areas where he was taught a lot, like fighting, he knew exactly how to use that knowledge to excel.
@@CookieFiend519 BRO WTF ARE YOU SAYING??? You liked DB and DBZ right? They are well made adaptations to anime of Toriyama's manga. Maybe in DBS it's all Toyotaro's fault, he was the kind of guy that made DBAF cursed fanmangas. It's bad and cruel to say something like the creator needs to die for the series get better, even when it probably was other guy fault. Do you like Daima? Because I can definitely tell that have Toriyama style.
@ I don’t think it has much to do with Toriyama’s understanding of Dragon Ball. Yeah, he probably forgot some stuff, but it’s not like he scripted the show’s episodes. For the show, he basically just gave major plot points. How the scenes were scripted and handled were basically just Toei. The manga is better, but even that wasn’t scripted by Toriyama. He was given editorial power, but you can only expect that to go so far.
GT was a fine ending for the dragon ball series imo. Goku being a kid while everyone is older is a throwback to when the series first started showing how Goku evolved but still has the child like personality to him. The weird team of kid Goku, Pan his granddaughter and trunks the son of Vegeta his rival made the chemistry all the more interesting between them. It also brought back adventure to dragon ball and made finding dragon balls challenging again. Also SSJ4 is pure originality and a fine final SSJ transformation honestly. Also the legacy of Goku forever tears me up seeing how everyone passed on 😢 And pan being old with her grandson.
The ending was literally the only good thing about it. Vegeta was trash the whole series, Goku Didn’t even care that Krillin died, SSj 4 and SSJ 4 Fusion were supposedly so powerful but neither was really effective when it really mattered.
What makes Zeno erasing Trunks’ universe worse is that it wasn’t just the people who were alive who got erased, it’s everyone in the afterlife too. So his mentor Future Gohan got erased, his mom who had just died and maybe got reunited with Future Vegeta (unless he got purified and reincarnated) got erased, Future Goku got erased, Future Piccolo, etc. And he just doesn’t care?
Zeno is the absolute worst thing to happen to the franchise. There were lots of bad retcons, but now you have an ultimate tier of gods who don't care about life and casually destroys it, while keeping several universes enslaved under a system where it has invincible enforcers who are tasked with destroying planets for the smallest slight. Freezer ended up being subservient and permitted to do awful things and Goku is friends with everyone.
@@dansmith1661plus, the Goku and Vegeta claim to have literal god tier power, but they can still get beaten by regular people who've trained hard (Jiren, Hit, Moro, etc.). We're expected to believe they can have the power to be Beerus's replacement some day but they're still too weak
@@dansmith1661I mean, Frieza was destroying both while Beerus was alseep and while Shin remained undertrained since Buu killed all the other Kais, including his mentor. Even still, for all his destruction, he spent his time making a profit and running an empire in orderly fashion, compared to Zamasu becoming a threat to the multiverse as a whole. Zeno really has no reason to kill Frieza when he not only isn't a threat to the multiverse and even now only stays focused on his own universe, but also is someone who can be dealt with by the people who have fought and beaten him before.
In Z leading into GT, Goku's primary concern was who would defend Earth after he's gone, and he trained Uub for that reason. In Super, he doesn't seem to care at all about that or anything else at all.
In the original work training Uub to protect the planet was part of his reasoning, but it was ultimately a selfish thing to do because what he REALLY wanted was someone to fight against. Super goku is not THAT different from Z goku.
@@genoremsuper goku forgot what he learned from his training with kami, had to learn again how to control his transformation like with grade 4, couldnt tell it was beerus in a torn apart giant monaka suit, never kissed his wife, is overly joyful compared to how he was in Z especially at the end, doesnt care one bit abt gohan or goten and trunks growing stronger, etc etc He’s very different from his Z counterpart
@@user-gd1no3gf6d Bro what are you talking about? When did he forget anything from Kami? If your talking about the manga version where he realized he needs to apply all of his lessons from his teachers together to achieve Ultra Instinct then that's not forgetting. I sure hope he'd have to learn how to control God ki, which is different from normal ki. yeah, the Monaka thing was dumb filler, never took it seriously, in fact it was hilarious. The kissing thing is a mistranslated joke. Z Goku was CONSTANTLY in situations where he HAD TO take things seriously. Super Goku is not. Super goes a little too far with his aloofness in peace time, but he remains a straight up genius in battles. Goku outright talks about wanting to let Gohan be who he wants to be and how he respects him for it. Chi-chi is clearly putting more effort into Gotens studies. He's in a totally different environment than Z Goku who died, trained a year out of need, resurrected and put in the hospital, healing and training out of need, got his body stolen and beaten up, healed and escaped an exploding planet, took a year to learn Shunkan Ido, returned to Earth to train for 3 years out of need, had a heart attack, healed and trained out of need, died for 7 years, resurrected by Old Kai because he was needed to fight danger. Super Goku is the most relaxed we see Goku outside the original Dragon Ball.
Probably because super is an interquel? Goku didn’t need to worry about the next savior because super is in between buu being washed by a spirit bomb and the 23rd world martial arts tournament, they haven’t even gotten to the point where he needs to start worrying
This video made me realize what makes Future Trunks so unique. He sees himself as a human and nothing more. His Saiyan powers as a tool to help humanity. He doesn't give a s*** about his blood or about fighting and doesn't have the weakness of Goku and Gohan of thinking maniacs that destroy planets for fun can be redeemed. He is everything that Gohan should have been but never was. Someone who only fights because "great power comes with great responsibility" and is wiling to spill blood in the name of peace. He gets things done without getting distracted by pride or selfishness, unlike Vegeta. It's a rare case where having less flaws actually makes a character feel more human.
Ironically one of the arguments I always hear for why GT haters hate GT is that Goku being a kid again felt like a regression of character but those same people like Super where there is an actual regression of character problem. GT for all it's faults at least understood where the characters arc would lead them. Krillin happily married, Vegeta becoming comfortable with earth being his home as well as caring about his family. Vegeta had the biggest respect placed on his character, his lines were great, his character felt like a positive and his respect for Goku showed so clearly, making it undeniable that he really changed after Goku beat Buu. Trunks may not have my favorite fit in GT but it's still grew on me after a bit.
@LyricMammal Ironically they were probably also hating daima before it released. Sometimes I feel like Dragon Ball has one of the most bipolar fanbases ever. Daima does look fun at least, I plan to watch it later when I can binge it.
What I don't like about gt fans is how gt fans tend say super goku regressed as a charter and fighter when everything super goku does where traits shown in z the top and goku making it was actually save the universe because Zeno was going to destroy it because he felt humans didn't care about their universe but let's even ignore that and say goku just did this to fight is this not same goku in the buu saga that risked human lives just so he could see if the next Gen could protect earth they will also say goku is a bad martial artist for using blue but in z and gt he uses ssj3 also they claim vegeta has grown and only cares about earth when he is mad about super 17 asking for goku and sometimes goes back to z vegeta bitter rivalry with goku and gogeta acting like gotenks 2 there are a lot more characters I could name in gt handled poorly or regressed some of the bad things u see in super is by their and arenot in super goku not kissing that fans complain about which is weird is no t present in the super Manga vegeta always being this person who wants to beat goku not present in the Manga in fact now vegeta is finding his own way of power and a transformation that fits his character unlike gt so most character problem u have are not in Manga and they are toei changes
gt is not and will never be better than super if retcon was an anime it would be gt and if u actually watched the series you'd know but no db fans are dyslexic tards
So many points brought up in this video that reminded me of various 4 hour+ discussions Ive had with friends in the past lmao Great video tho I do love the slice of life episodes of Super & a handful of concepts but like GT both had their issues. Tho 1 thing I think was underrated about GT was the fact most of the fighters wore street/casual clothes when fighting. To me personally thats just a dope concept. Having a casual day out but then being ready to box on the spot haha
Thanks man! Yeah I agree with that last part, especially with goten and vegeta. Makes it a bit more realistic and feels like these people are just living their lives in a time of peace
Thank you! I'm tired of people defending Super and shitting on GT, when despite its setbacks, GT actually feels like it's part of the DB universe. Super has legit turned into the Dragon Ball April Fools meme
It also doesn't help that on a pure visual standpoint,..it's more interesting to watch GT due to it being Cell animated,...I can never get over the wonky visuals of Super
GT had a larger amount of good ideas than Super I feel, though I dislike the execution of many of them. Goku training up Uub amounted to nothing, Majuub amounted to nothing, Trunks and Pan mostly hindered Goku or did nothing. The whole Hell thing in the Super 17 arc was silly (why is Android 19 coming out of hell?), lobotomized Nappa grunting for 3 seconds, 18 getting folded by 17 easily (he was stronger but not by that much, no indication that he'd kept training as a park ranger, unlike the Super version). Many of the Shadow Dragons were poorly executed too...To be honest I kind of wish super had been a remake of GT, something that took place past End of Z instead of in the middle, I always disliked that part about it.
No one mentions this: in Super, why does Vegeta wear his armor? He discarded the armor in Z. He discarded the blue tights at the end of Z and in GT. Also, why is Super Vegeta obsessed with surpassing Goku? Don't get me started on the Final Atonement 2.0.
in gt am surprise no one mention this:why does vegeta lost his pride and don't care about training anymore?why did they bring back every villain from movie in the series?why did they turn goku in a kid and make him go hunt for the dragonball are they trying to make it like db 2.0?
@@nickalas666 1. Vegeta still trains, he just doesn't obsess over surpassing goku anymore. 2. They attempted to bridge the movies with the series I guess. 3. That is obviously the intention, just badly executed. Not like they did any different in the latest db daima.
Tbh I think Super was inevitable, Toriyama never wanted to make Goku such a serious character, but his editors at the time kept pressuring him to write more serious characters and plots, and on top of that the anime doubled down on this seriousness. So when Toriyama finally was able to write the story the way he wanted, of course it felt different.
that's an urban legend. Toriyama's the one that wanted to age up goku and write stories like the piccolo saga and the 23rd world tournament. Plus dragon ball itself came into existence because toriyama wanted to stop working on dr slump (because he found episodic comedy to be troublesome ironically enough) but SJ wanted toriyama to keep working, since he was basically printing money for them at the time, so him working on another series was more or less the compromise
That's not what happened. Toriyama was the one that fought to age Goku up, and his editor got in the way for villains of the android saga, having to change between 19 and 20 to 17 and 18 to Cell and his designs, but Goku himself wasn't in question in the manga, especially with Toriyama making the choice himself to bring back Goku because he didn't think Gohan could work as the protagonist, his choice. He wrote Goku as serious for like against Frieza and Cell and he was upset and Toei taking that and making him heroic, despite his own work making Goku heroic.
I hate the defense for original creators so much, like with Akira Toriyama and Dragon Ball Super, as well as George Lucas and the Star Wars prequels. The fandoms of these franchises think that if the original creators have complete control, you’re contractually obligated to think they’re good and maybe even better than the original material that were made when they had others to help make a good story, like how George Lucas had others like his ex-wife when making the original trilogy. And I especially hate the automatic hate that a series will get if the original creator isn’t involved in a sequel. The Star Wars sequels deserved the hate, but I definitely feel like most of GT’s hate stems from the fact that Toriyama wasn’t involved with the show, while Toriyama was involved with Super, as well as the defense for “canon”, which apparently makes Super automatically good and better than GT.
@@supersaiyanfox9190 First, the canon argument is nonsense. Nobody understands what canon truly means otherwise they'd know GT and Super are both canon. The existence of Future Trunks makes alternate timelines possible. Second, what Super fans don't understand is that Toriyama was both involved with the conceptualization of GT, AND enjoyed it as a sequel to Dragon Ball. He drew a Super Saiyan 4 Goku for the Dragon Box set for GT and expressed his love for the series. Saying, "it is a grand side story," is a pretty big compliment for a creator.
The fact that GT pays more respect to DBZ, has more accurate with Z's lore, and actually keeps the spirit of adventure original Dragon Ball had deems it NOT a bad sequel. I'm not sure why people are dead set on calling GT "bad" when it doesn't show any signs of being bad (EPSECIALLY) when being compared to Super and it's faults on how it gets so much wrong about DB. Yeah GT doesn't have any flashy squiggly aura lines or have over the top action scenes like modern DB does but that doesn't make it "bad".
Akira didn't write the story for gt , he only gave them concept art to work off of and told em to run with it... Akira last work was motaro eater of worlds arc , even tho I don't like super either... it is the true continuation cuz Akira wrote it , Akira is DBZ rip the goat 🙏
Oh boy, where have I heard that before? Goku has always been a retard monkey bitch with the mental capacity of a rock. Now the question remains, is Goku the stupid one or is it you for wasting time with Toriyama’s garbage?
The reason to why I like Super more is that the themes of each arc are very Toriyama-like, even if GT captures the feel better. And I also like how Super expanded on the idea of the whole hierarchy of gods in general, the transition feels quite smooth (Even with the massive amount of retcons that come with Beerus alone). GT tries to expand upon the slightly abandoned heritage theme of the Saiyan and Freeza Arcs, which is also pretty cool, but I kind of prefer Super's approach to expanding previous unexplored ideas. And even if I prefer SSJ4 over almost every form in Super in terms of design in terms of concept and idea, I think I prefer something like the Ultra Instinct, where it retroactively expands on the lessons of Goku's previous teachers (mainly in the manga).
I'm sorry, what themes does Super have? What were the themes of Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, U6 Tournament, Goku Black, Tournament of Power, Broly, or Super Hero? Not even gonna try and mention the manga arcs. Also, what is your definition of "Toriyama-like?" Is the Golden Great Ape shown during Vegeta's telling of the Super Saiyan Legend not creative enough? What about the expanded Tuffle lore and Tuffle villain? What about the idea of having negative side effects of the Dragon Balls? What did Super do? "oooohhh it's Goku but EEEEEEEVIIIIILLLLLL" Don't even try and tell me that Ultra Instinct is some amazing and new concept, the lesson that Ultra Instinct was supposed to teach Goku was already done in the manga. In the OG Dragon Ball. BEFORE THE 23RD WORLD TOURNAMENT. And Ultra Instinct's whole thing is about becoming "autonomous." He is not autonomous, in fact he doesn't even win in the same fight he was introduced in. His back gets blown out. WOOWWW, what a COOL and TOTALLY POWERFUL transformation.
The idea of making 12 universes is a good idea, I just think most of these new characters are bland outside of Hit who is a favorite or i guess… a hit lol. Jiren is decent but alot of these new aliens aren't that interesting.
7:55 "Super Buu's back, guys, we have to- what? That's supposed to be the fat version of Buu? But he's not fat. He trained so he's buff now? Oh, I bet if he trained some more, he'd become a kid with black air forces."
Literally my stance that got me crucified when i was in the anime sector back in 2018. I always thought GT was better than Super for every reason stated in this video, and i also agree that GT was not very good either. Also, the one thing i did not expect GT to do better was offer a better explanation on how Super 17 was so strong. I will take 2 17s merging over 17 poaching on an island and being able to throw hands with Blue Goku who trained with a literal angel. Looks like Goku could have literally just moved to an island and poached animals and probably would have stopped Beerus when he showed up in SSJ3 lol
@@KumoBear12 its def not as bad in Z and og they just kind a retconed picollo to be an alien but they fixed that now in diama and some dragon ball wishes but some might be not considered a retcon just outplaying the rules
If you look closely to dragonball and read the manga toriyama retcon shit since DB. Remember when the dead body needs to be preserved so they can get resurrected by shenlog? Now in Z schautzu returned even though he blowed himself up@@KumoBear12
@@DrJ19999 I wouldn't say that's a retcon when you take in the context of the different situations. Chiaotzu blew himself up yes, but he was also granted a new body upon death to go train with King Kai. Thus already having a pre-existing body to be revived in. People forget receiving bodies is a privilege and not the norm. It's likely the likes of those who died before the events of Z never received their bodies and were among the countless floating souls you see in the otherworld line, aside from the likes of Grandpa Gohan who became under the employ of Baba. It's why Goku didn't need to be revived from being a corpse when he died in the Raditz encounter. If anything they took his pre-existing body and gave it to his spirit form due to Kami. Then when he was revived all that was needed was his Halo to fade any whatever other factors that decide life to kick in. Sometimes not everything is a retcon, when the context of a situation opens up different paths, if it's not changing an established one.
While Super is has its moments, GT just feels like a better written series and actually feels more real, where as Super feels more like someone took Dragon Ball elements and put them in a blender and the result was Super. I find myself going back to rewatch GT more than Super.
0:30 Doesn't ruin characters?! Retcon plot details?! Bruh the show couldnt have started because in canon Kami was dead and Piccolo kept his body outright denying the nameless namekians existence, and was not a magic type but a warrior type, which made him incapable of creating Dragon balls. Meaning the Black Star Dragon Balls can't exist.
You don't necessarily die in Namekian fusion. So if they wanted to do a retcon Black Star Dragon Balls, Nameless Namekian could be a way to go about it. Also Piccolo is a hybrid of Demon, Dragon, and Warrior Namekians.
@@spaceunicorn9170 I know its not necessarily death, he just no longer exists as the same person. The Nameless Namekian is of the dragon clan, but Piccolo himself noted he was a warrior without Kami's form of magic. still it is a plot hole among others.
So here’s how I understand it: The Nameless Namek, wanting to be like his homeworld, made a set of dragon balls, the Black Star Dragon Balls. But, they almost blew up the world, so he realized something was wrong with him. He went to the Kami of his time, trained, split himself into two, and became Kami and Piccolo, the black star dragon balls turn to stone. Kami makes the Red Star Dragon Balls, and chills till the Android Saga, where he fuses back with Piccolo. Since they became the Nameless Namek once again, kinda like how red star dragon balls came back with Kami, the black star dragon balls came back. However, no one knew about them, and they didn’t know about them till after Dende made his set of Dragon Balls. Where are Dende’s dragon balls in GT? If the Dragon Radar could find Namekian and Kami’s dragon balls, why didn’t it find the Black Star dragon balls? Find out, next time on Dragon Ball Z!!!
@@genorem It's definitely a curiosity. The original Namekian was of the dragon clan and had the ability to make powerful dragonballs, tied to his lifeforce much like the normal ones are to Kami's. When he became tainted with evil, he expelled it into the evil Piccolo, and the good Kami, with the former becoming a warrior namekian without magic, and the latter having kept his dragon clan powers. Because the original creator was now gone, those dragonballs became inert. Why they both didn't stay dragon-clan is... bizarre, BUT it's not like Toriyama had thought of that in dragonball at the time. BUT because they fused once more, the dragonalls tied to his lifeforce were once more active, even if he couldn't create new ones, as he was still recognized as the nameless namekian. Hell, it's basically how he introduces himself to goku after merging with Kami and the former wakes up from his heart virus: "I've forgotten my name, but just keep calling me Piccolo." Why didn't he become a dragon clan member instead of warrior when they refused? Because Piccolo was the base, not Kami. Why can't he make them given Kami clearly still knew how? I guess because his abilities were now too warrior-centric? I guess DB was an JRPG-Manga all along??? Does it make sense? Not... really. How did no one notice 7 new balls on earth all together? Still not the worse creative choice ever made though.
Agreed. GT isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But good lord is Super just an awful fanfictiony blatant cashgrab. It's like a reboot made by people who barely even remember Z. Can't believe I am saying this, but GT actually respects the source material, at least better than Super does. The execution was poor mostly, and I can't say they respected the all the characters in GT, but the history was there. (Admittedly the disrespect for many characters started in Z). But Super feels like a fan from the 90s finally got a hold of the canon creative process, and nobody stopped them. Like some fans wanted to insert their versions of Super Saiyan 5,6, and 7, which are just lazy recolors.
@@SussySuzuki i mean i can agree on concepts but concepts don't really matter when you don't use them right. also dbs had some good concepts,just poorly used like gt.
False; GT is largely terrible and no amount of nostalgia or rose tinted glasses syndrome is going to ever change that. Super ain’t perfect far from it in fact; but it’s far more enjoyable to sit through than GT which is torture outside of the Baby arc & last half of the Shadow Dragons saga.
Thank you so much! I've been saying damn near all of this for years now, finally some one gets it and can explain it all properly. (I may not agree with some of your GT criticism but...) You seriously said it best.
We are different. I hate GT, i think its stupid executed what ruins it for me but as a Dragonball fan i want that you can enjoy all of dragonball as much as possible. So please enjoy it, i will never hate a fellow dragonball fan just because he likes one of the series what are not for me :)
My biggest issue with Super was its tone. Aside from the Goku Black arc, nothing ever really felt at stake. There was no emotional tension or weight to the events of the plot, because not even the characters themselves gave a shit about what was happening (esp during the Tournament of Power where the side-characters just kinda chill at the bleachers). Even if GT was 80% filler, those emotional peaks resonated 10x's higher than anything from Super.
I don't know what would change if he talked about the super movies, 2 of them are retold in the anime and super hero only exists to try to give importance to Gohan, which doesn't do it in a good way, the only really good super movie is Broly's
Lol we hating on the god form, but it was meant to look like base form lol. Blue form is meant to be the super saiyan form of ssg, hence why it looks like super saiyan, but blue. If you wanna talk bad about forms, rage and berserker are examples you shouldve focused on Goku not being able to beat buu is wrong because Goku even says he couldve beaten Buu, but he didnt to give the next generation a chance Pan and GT Trunks are abyssmal throughout the entire series and their involvement throughout the series is hilariously pathetic Super at least lets a lot of the characters get a chance to fight and even get big plays against some big bads in the series, whereas the characters in GT do little to nothing throughout the series where them trying to defend the earth feels hollow because we know Goku would just do all the heavy lifting like he did in every saga in that series Uub, Goku's newest pupil, does little to nothing outside of the couple moments he gets in the Baby arc and becomes fodder through the rest of the series
God I was looking for this comment. Why are we hating on these forms acting like those transformations weren't cool AF. Calling both these shows bad is just plain dumb. And I absolutely loved the character arcs in Super. The focus being on Goku and Vegeta isn't the end of the world. I find myself disagreeing with almost all his points. Calling Gohan useless in the Tournament makes me think he didn't actually watch it. I just can't with this vid.
The whole Super saiyan god is incredibly stupid. All it takes is 5 good hearted saiyan and one can attain unimaginable power with that simple process is absurd. Even that inspiration was taken from GT when everyone had to transfer power to Goku
@ftu2021 It's not the same as fpssj4. That was Goku asking for more power to beat Baby, which is already insane since this is already in the big new form he just unlocked How different the requirement for the transformation was impacted the story and Goku throughout his fight with beerus. He hated the way he earned it even tho it put him at a level to interest Beerus Finding 5 kind hearted saiyans is a nice touch to show the growth of Vegeta and adds to the reasoning why the last super saiyan god was thousands of years ago and is a legend, because most saiyans in universe 7 were cold blooded killers with no care for life, hence why it took someone like Goku to get the transformation to no longer be a legend The form plays bigger factors like in the Manga with Goku vs Hit, Vegeta vs Goku Black, Goku vs Kale and Caulifla, and even in Broly and the Granolah arc where it's used to demonstrate a distinct fighting style, benefits of less ki consumption, and use with other techniques/transformation allowing for the upper hand in some moments
Finally, someone who gets it. I don’t feel GT is that bad, maybe mid/almost good. But Super is worse than bad. I feel like if they ever re-do Dragon Ball from de OG to GT, with a artsytle similar to the 90's but for newer generation to actually see DB OG and Z, and change a bit some things in GT we would get Dragon Ball definitive edition.
Thank you so much. I hate Super like you wouldn't beleive. It's written like a shitty fan fiction. GT wasnt nearly as good as Z but it had some iconic moments and it was fucking ORIGINAL rather than Super's formula which is "something from Z returns! But with a slight twist!"
Idk if you like gt or not, personally i never watched it, but super is a fucking disgrace to the entirety of z and og dragonball, goku's character gets turned into a demented kid, gohan regresses ONCE AGAIN to slacking off, the buu saga itself should have made him realize he needed to train again since even when ssj3 goku was around he was no doubt the strongest z fighter, but nooooooo lets forget every couple years arrives a world ending threath, i'd rather STUDY BUGS. Makes no sense, you can't even say his mother forced him because the instant comeback is "ok, but when another buu arrives you deal with it mom, good luck 🖐 ". Really, even thinking about it makes me so mad.
Honestly, I think GT is vastly superior to Super and seeing people FINALLY give GT love after so much unwanted hatred towards it after Super's run is so nice. I will admit that I enjoyed GT as a kid and while, yes, I think it IS worse than Z, I don't think it's god awful like so many claim. You can tell the people behind GT DID watch OG DB and DBZ, but with Super, it feels like they didn't watch it at all. Every single character in the show feels like a bootleg of the original characters, all their worse qualities from Z/OG are amplified with Goku being the one affected the most by it. It's so damn depressing. I want to pretend like Super doesn't exist like how people pretended that GT didn't exist.
This was a great video analysis bro! I never got into super to begin with, however once I was seeing that it was just the goku/vegeta show, I knew the creativity was out the window 🤣. Plus GT has one of the best endings I’ve ever seen which still makes me cry to this day 😭
Both series have ups and downs and objectively Super is far more better. In my opinion, i watched gt the Black Star Arc is a mess, the Baby arc probably one of the better ideas. Super 17 is eh, Shadow dragons are cool but it took too long to there there, most of the arcs didnt lead to each other aside from the baby and shadow dragons. Super atleast try to connect there story arcs, Some of the lines in super are questionable but i have to say its really good. I get that the argument here is that Toriyama doesn't under what dragon ball fans are but i think its the other way around.
Why does everyone think he trains for a day. He clearly doesn't, he trains with piccolo offscreen. I'm pretty sure piccolo shook off his rust and what we saw was a snippit of their training that was unlocking his potential.
the reason being that we go from Gohan literally tapping himself out by going Super Saiyan against Frieza (btw, a Gohan who had mastered Super Saiyan and could sustain it effortlessly) then he trained with piccolo on and off for roughly a year after the incident so he can atleast sustain Super Saiyan again, but he is still somehow weaker than Piccolo? (also, that he lost access to his ultimate form, which was said to be automatic after it being unlocked by the Elder Kai, it was never implied that he needed a certain "mastery" or "fitness" to access it, because, let's not forget that Gohan trained LESS after Cell than after Buu, but somehow Gohan could still go SS2 against Kibito effortlessly, while he couldn't even sustain SS1 against Frieza, Gohan didn't train at all during the 7 year time skip, which btw, would've been the most important years to train due to him growing up and needing to develop his muscles, while against Frieza was ... 4, maybe 4.5 years) but after the exhibition match, he trains 1 more day with Piccolo and ... unlocks Ultimate Gohan again, also that his entire personality went from Gohan to basically DBZ Trunks. Gohan has a gentle heart, he doesn't like to fight as much as Goku/Vegeta, yet when he trained with Piccolo he instantly becomes as cold as a terminator.
I agree with the ending with trunks. What i think they should have done if they didn't want him in the show anymore was have whis tell him about the Supreme Kai of time and that she was looking for someone to help her protect time and this would have been a good way to explain how trunks got there and formed the time patrol
GT: Goku chose to stay dead to avoid threats coming to earth, yet Buu shows they will still appear AND Earth’s current fighting force wasn’t enough. He chooses to stay alive, and to find an option to succeed him. Gohan is studying but willing to train once new threats arrive, and Goten and Trunks aren’t focused on fighting, so he trains Uub, then spends time with his granddaughter who WANTS to fight. He won’t be around forever, and if threats continue to arise someone needs to succeed him Super: Fuck that Goku and Vegeta are the only ones that matter until the newest movie
Litterally every arc in dbz has been "lets wait for goku" dragon ball being mainly focused on goku and vegeta has always been the case please tell me when GT came out with a whole movie and or arc specifically only focused on piccolo and gohan
One of the boldest takes on Dragon Ball. I personally do enjoy GT, but more than a lot of parts of super. I'm glad others are starting to discuss this as well.
GT Vegeta is more Mature than the baster version of (Super) Vegeta. Super pulls the most ass pulls in power ups. Why does GT have the most serious characters and Villains than super ever has, Goku Black was serious up to the point you find out who he really is than its Thunder just dies real fast in the next episode.
I wasn't a huge fan of super since the start, back in 2018 when I watched it. I think a big factor of this was Vegeta and his obsession with surpassing Goku. In Z we get a Vegeta who sacrifices himself to protect the life he's built on Earth. In GT we have a Vegeta who's truly embraced the human life style, but still keeps some of that Saiyan pride within him. In super, well, he could get annoying with his comments on surpassing Goku, I swear they felt repetitive. I'm happy I'm not the only one who thought Goku was plain stupid at times in Dragon Ball Super. Adult Goku has always been an incent soul, but not stupid. Having Goku forget such serious things in such drastic, life and death situations (like the mafuba seal) pissed me off (that ain't my Goku). It's not like Goku hasn't been lovey dovely with Chichi before (man has 2 kids. come on yall), so him acting surprised by Trunks giving Mai the sensu bean always felt goofy to me (maybe if it was a kid goku from db it would make more sense). I'm not In any way saying Super is a stupid anime/manga, and GT is better. GT has it's own faults and straight up '' Tf am I looking at'' moments, (also let's not forget the horrible rap the dub gave it (that has to be a crime against anime itself). That being said, something I've always stated GT got right, were it's characters (or at least for the most part).
So we used to hate GT because it's worse than Z in some ways, but Super was worse in the league of its own. We then started to consider that GT was actually good.
The main advantage GT has is that it moves the story forward (not always in a good way) so it feels like there is payoff. Super on the other hand is set in an intermediate period between the the time skip of the Buu saga, and so far shows little interest in going past the end of the original story. This puts DBS in a timeless vacuum where nothing feels like a regular timeline, and instead gices the feel of something like DC and Marvel comics.
I love videos like this because even though I think you're wrong it's very interesting to me to see how other people consume the stories that I also love. And I think it's a good thing to be forced to think about stuff in a new way and maybe get a new understanding or emotion from the story so thanks for making the video Even though I don't agree with you I think it's a great video
To be clear I don't think you're all the way wrong I actually agree with you on a few points especially about Buu but overall I think you and I just feel different things about this series and I think that's pretty cool
Dragon Ball GT is an evolution of the franchise that many people didn't like. Dragon Ball super is basically Dragon Ball as is percieved in stereotypes: Endless meaningless transformations - It also constantly has Goku being a moron (especially the Monaka costume Beerus fight) - It constantly has characters acting like their characatures. It destroyed Chichi's development and made her focus on education despite changing significantly in the Buu Saga and training Goten. In fact in GT chichi although she wasn't the best she literally said Goten should go into space with Goku. She also was even happy when Gohan was initially going to go on the trip. Not only that but in the Super 17 Saga videl and her flew over to fight the bad guys (They never actually go there in time) In the Shadow Dragon Saga she showed up to the battle with Syn/Omega Shenron to support her family.
BRO I'VE ALWAYS SAID THIS!! I HATE THAT THEY RUINED DB! Vegeta and even Shenron get soft ASF! Not to mention removing all blood and gore... They really ruined everything that made it so 🔥 to me.. Even made my favorite bro piccolo wack 😭
its called character development dumbass vegeta didnt get soft he just grew up fucking idiot also removing blood is cuz a of japan shit if you'd actually do research instead of being a useless shit to society.
I loved how Goku became more and more of a real parental elder for Pan. He ironically grew up so much after being turned into a kid. Grandparents are the best.
12:35 im so glad you mentioned this. they made his dialogue with zamasu sound so generic and cliche. hearing trunks unironically say mortals was so cringe and childish. like it straight up sounded like the type of shit youd hear on nicktoons.
@@andyplays9493 its something about the way he says it and also the fact that he just says it way too fucking much. it was alright maybe the first couple times but after that it just got annoying and stupid. “MORTALS CAN CARVE THEIR OWN PATH.” “ONLY MORTALS CAN DECIDE DESTINY.” “TASTE THE POWER OF MORTALS!” “MORTALS CAN DO ANYTHING.” like at a certain point this sounds less like trunks and more like a generic shounen protagonist. this is the type of shit youd hear on sword art online, not fucking trunks every five seconds.
@@andyplays9493 imagine if in the android saga trunks just went on a pretentious tirade about how humans can shape their own destiny every five seconds. like ofc trunks hated the androids and it showed, but his dialogue was way more natural and had variety. it wasnt just some philosophical quotes trying to sound mature with no substance. it was mature because it actually was pretty mature at the time. even the funimation dub had more engaging dialogue and voice acting, which is kind of sad.
@@ZeroCloudsZeroSkies The whole plot of the arc was mortals vs gods so of course its gonna be mentioned allot(and honestly it wasnt even said as much as you say it was)trunks vs goku black was a battle of ideology zamasu thought they were a threat that needed to be erased for life to evolve and move forward trunks believed mortals are what push that life forward instead and defeating zamasu is how he proves that how many times did vegeta mention "elite warrior" or "low class" in his fight with goku?
@@andyplays9493 the problem is that trunks was not saying anything remotely compelling, and it got really repetitive. like i said he pretty much refutes any criticism from zamasu with the same trite “mortals can forge their own path” nonsense over and over. the android/cell saga was all about the androids but as i said before the dialogue from him had way more variety and creativity. as for vegeta, he was established as a prideful character from the get go, so it makes way more sense for him to cling onto labels that make him feel important. and the dub gives him fun dialogue that keeps it fresh. same with zamasu. trunks in super just sounds like they ripped his characteristics from a bunch of goody two shoes shounen protagonists and called it a day.
I prefer GT! The soundtrack, the sarcasm, the villains, and the focus on SSJ, it's incredibly beautiful. Now, in Super, EVERYONE became a kid! I ain't seeing anyone against Daima. Yeah, I know it's the last work of Toryama, but damn, are we gonna assume that ain't the same as GT? C'mon boys, let's not joke about this.
"the villains" and theyre nothing unique just copy and pasted from z stfu dumb bitch also daima isnt super fucking idiot if you actually read since most dragon ball fans dont and u fall under that category you'd know daima is before fucking super dumbass
Well, wearing armour makes sense because DBSuper introduced new enemies and threats. In Buu Saga, Vegeta didn't prepare for anything bigger than a friendly sparring match, but he was rushed into a battlefield.
He shows up to bulma's birthday party on a yacth wearing the armor... that is what he wears troughout the whole thing damn near, fighting or not. Im sure he could have worn something else fit for battle that isn't that armor
In GT Gohan never stopped training, obviously he prioritized family and career but he also didn't neglect training because he knew that at some point he would have to fight again. In Super he doesn't train and realizes that he has become useless, he goes back to training so he doesn't do shit and ends up without training again.
Hey, a random two-man content creator team from the Central-East European country of Poland here! We just wanted to drop in and say this is a GREAT video. It always feels nice to see people from other parts of the world independently reach similar conclusions to you. Really makes you think you might be onto something... The take on GT presented in this video seems just right. It sure has many flaws, but so does Super... to even greater extent and at the same time it is way too idealized in our community. It must have been due to recency bias of some kind, since with the passage of time more and more critical voices arise. Anyways, one thing's certain - Super really helped us appreciate what came before it a little bit more!
Liked and subscribed based on the title alone Looking back, Super almost seems like something someone did to try and sabotage the Dragonball franchise, I’m not even exaggerating. They made an unwatchable version of dragonball and it’s hard to mess up dragonball. To their surprise I bet, the masses ate it up. I have NEVER been able to accept Super, it was void of soul. Tournament of Power was a grade above early Super but the damage was done. I was DONE lol Kumo I appreciate your analysis on this topic because I swear I thought I was alone in this thinking initially. Always cool to find like minded people out here
This is a really great video, and addressed a lot of the the frustrations I've had with the debate between both series. I personally always thought both series, while fundamentally different, were at least equal in quality. Which some have talen as GT glazing or Super hating. I watch, enjoy, and criticize both as I just love Dragon Ball, just as I would with Z.
Whenever i think of Peak Trunks, I think of not just Z, but also the Z movies. He might not have had the most dubs in the Z movies, but he was so much cooler, no? Especially compared to DBS F. Trunks, who comes back, act nothings like how he was written, and gets at least 2 ass pulls ((somehow knowing the Spirit Bomb and Ssj Rage)) and also gets the worst possible ending that essentially takes away EVERYTHING he was fighting for. #justiceforZtrunks
16:13 Speaking of Old Kai and retcons - in Z he's said that he's been sealed in the Z-sword by someone WEAK, but in Super it's stated that Beerus has sealed him (for some reason).
@@KumoBear12 Yeah it's weird how Trunks says Android 17's ki is similar Android 18's, which he shouldn’t sense neither. But it also brings up the question of how Gero and Myuu made a near identical clone of 17 in hell to start, especially since 17 is a cyborg, not just an android they can build.
Why would he want to live with a clone of himself? Why would he think that "clone" would be okay with it? And they are not strangers lmao. He has spent a bunch of time with these people. Let’s also not forget that trunks went back to the past after he beat cell in his timeline to tell them the news
@@xAznSkyxx I don’t understand what you mean? The alternate universe didn’t have complete strangers, it had the exact same people as the timeline that got erased by xeno.
@KumoBear12 but it's another timeline. It's like when Trunks went back in time for the first time. They are the same people but they aren't. The ones he knew are still dead
The only thing new about ULTRA INSTINCT is its name & its color palette, since it already existed since og DB, in fact, it was MR. POPO who taught GOKU to predict his opponents' attacks, in order to avoid them beforehand.
You reaching with the Trunks part, he's the one who beat the main villain so the writers clearly still care about him. But yea they did his timeline dirty
My point is more so that him being able to beat zamasu (even though zamasu doesn't even die) is not because of his own motivation or want to get stronger, it's just given to him
@KumoBear12 And I understand you but my point at least Something is given to Trunks. Cant say that about a lot of other characters besides goku and vegeta
Not to mention stupid power creeps of all older characters keeping up to Super Sayian GOD power level.... Super Sayian GOD should be a form that beats every other sayian forms without problems and also no one like Krillan should be even close to super sayian GOD, not to mention Super Sayian BLUE. Dragon Ball Super is just too broken now to be fixed. Or is it? The only explanation could be that everyone that is a close to a Super Sayian GOD get's insane power increase. The more close they are to the GOD the stronger they become, it's like shared strength. So that could explain why GOKU and VEGETA could get Super Sayian BLUE so quickly, and that's why VEGETA got SUPER SAYIAN GOD, because he is very close to GOKU as being a friend and a rival and also the blood of sayians. Others Like Krillan and Mr.Roshi are also friends and master roshi was his master. Gohan getting Super Sayian Beast so quickly because he is a son of a GOD, which is GOKU. Cabba, Kefla and others started to being a friends when they started to teach them how to transform into Super Sayian etc, so that's why they unlock more transformations so quickly. That could explain almost every power up for everyone, but I think they won't do it, until more and more people will spread and talk about that idea. So maybe one day it become official in the manga and anime. But anyway yeah the Super transfomrations are boring. It just color change nothing more. Super Sayian GOD, it looks like Kaioken. Super Sayian Blue, looks like Super sayian but just blue hair. Super Sayian Rose, looks like super sayian but pink hair. Super Sayian RAGE, just looks like Super Sayian but with blue aura inside of super sayian. Golden freeza, yeah a joke it's just gold freeze. Black freeza, why are we just changing the colors here? A new form just being black color, comeon.... Cooler had 5th form.... Super Sayiang BLUE evolved, looks like Super Sayian Vegeta 2nd grade when he fought against 2nd Cell form and later perfect cell. Goku UI - Looks almost like normal Goku. Goku UI mastered - just silver hair. Super Sayina Beast, looks like super sayian 2 but with white hair and actually and change that is longer spiked hair but I thnk that;s too little, they could bring back tail to that form. Maybe later Gohan will transfomr into FULL BEAST form, where he looks like Super Sayian 4 but white. And later SUPER BEAST form that looks like Super Sayian 5 with long white hair. But anyway SUPER should be done again. Like for example Vegitto form should be permanent, and they could say to BUU that can he suck them up to split their form and then spit them out. That would be way better, reminding of what happen in DB Z when they were sucked into Super Buu.
Dragon Ball Super made Gods a frickin joke. The last thing I want to see is Vegeta to become a God of Destruction and Goku to become an Angel. At best, they do absolutely nothing, and at worst, they completely ruin the tension of the franchise. When characters from like Naruto become super strong and wield power from the Gods, like Pain/Nagato, Naruto, Sasuke, Obito, and Madara, it was a big deal, but God power in Dragon Ball Super is pretty pointless and useless, especially when non-God beings like Broly can surpass them.
@@genorem Don’t make me laugh, Z’s tension from the Saiyan Saga to the Android/Cell Saga was every bit as serious as Naruto. Power-ups and transformations were taken more seriously as well, like despite Frieza not being a God, his presence and powers during the Namek Saga felt more God-like than the actual characters with God powers. Being a God sucks in the Dragon Ball franchise. SSJ4, with its design, presence, and treatment, is what a God form should be. In Naruto, obtaining God powers makes characters super strong and powerful, like how Gods should be, but in Dragon Ball, obtaining God powers makes characters lame. Oh that makes perfect sense.
@@supersaiyanfox9190 right, because Goku was heavily contemplating the pointlessness of war and how to break its cycle and hold on the Earth, all while chasing down his friend Vegeta(ble) to convince him to come back home to Earth and not fall in the evil clutches of Freezer and his milk product force in search of ultimate power.🤣🤣
@@genorem I don’t want Dragon Ball to be Naruto, but if you’re going to make Gods, actually have them be Gods: almighty, powerful, almost unstoppable, be taken seriously, and be fearful. Don’t make them do nothing, be lame, be tension destroyers, and constantly lose battles to non-God beings. Beerus and Whis started out to be cool in Battle of Gods, but afterwards, they became the worst kinds of characters for an action anime. And the God forms always lose battles against characters who don’t have God Ki, so what is even the point of them?! If you don’t want me to compare to Naruto, then how about Death Note? It’s an anime that also demonstrates how threatening and powerful Gods are, which are the Shinigami, along with wielding God powers, which are the Death Notes. This is just common sense for how to write Gods and beings with God powers.
The thing about dbz is that every transformation felt impactful and powerful. In the saiyan arc, it was about the power of the kaiyoken. In the frieza arc it was about the super saiyan. In the cell arc it was about super saiyan 2. The buu arc wasn’t quite as consistent with that but bear in mind that Toriyama did NOT want to make it. He wanted to end dbz with Cell but was ultimately pressured into making the buu arc. That could explain why the buu arc is not as well received because Toriyama did not put his heart and soul into it. Regardless, it still followed its principle and when super saiyan 3 was revealed, although it wasn’t as effective as the previous transformations, it was still a pretty big deal. Gt followed this principle, making it all about the super saiyan 4, although it still makes no sense that Vegeta was able to achieve it considering he never even achieved super saiyan 2 without Babidi’s majin boost, but I digress. Super on the other hand, completely throws this out the window and throws in new transformations like it’s candy. So when a new transformation is achieved in super it just doesn’t feel as impactful.
We shouldn't presume Buu's sleep cycle based on one scene. He slept for millions of years in his cacoon, so he possibly didn't require longer rest afterwards. Later his biology adapted to human cycles. The sore in the eye is that they used Buu's sleep as an excuse to bring Frieza back AGAIN. Frieza should have stayed dead.
I think it's fair to presume imo. But the point is more that out of every excuse they could have give, that is probably the worst one out of all of them
![How Every Saiyan Unlocked Super Saiyan [Full Story]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/A7Tc3rGLOzE/mqdefault.jpg)
You literally have no idea about anything. Dragon ball super is the best iteration of dragon ball, FULL STOP. the only way you could possibly like it less is if you have an edging fetish because you watched frieza and goku talk about fighting each other for 4 hours straight over 30 episodes. Wow, how fun. Super is GOAT. Your opinion isn't even bad it's just wrong. I am the most correct person to ever exist, so if you disagree with me, you are wrong and not correct.
2/10 rage bait, do better
Meh at best, boring most of the time. Just answer a simple question: if it's so great why no characters from Moro and Granola's arc even appeared in VG when several of Daima already did ?
You right bra , but people insult super just because they got influenced by the mass of TH-camrs who gave their opinion, but objectively super is different than Z in a modern way
Bro doesn't understand the meaning of an opinion.
@@BAT19992010 this is 3.5/10 subpar ragebait, atleast try to sound right
Goku in the original series was never stupid. He was naive and goofy at times, but he matured to being a full adult who was just occasionally wrong.
The difference was that Goku just lacked knowledge. When he met Bulma, he didn't know the difference between boys and girls but then was able to understand it enough to have 2 sons, and in areas where he was taught a lot, like fighting, he knew exactly how to use that knowledge to excel.
Well maybe Toriyama just didn’t know his own creation, maybe his death is what the series needs.
@@CookieFiend519 BRO WTF ARE YOU SAYING??? You liked DB and DBZ right? They are well made adaptations to anime of Toriyama's manga. Maybe in DBS it's all Toyotaro's fault, he was the kind of guy that made DBAF cursed fanmangas. It's bad and cruel to say something like the creator needs to die for the series get better, even when it probably was other guy fault. Do you like Daima? Because I can definitely tell that have Toriyama style.
@@CookieFiend519 *TOYOTAROU* made Super, *DIPSHIT!* This reply just *MAKES YOU LOOK* like a *CLOWN.* 🤡 Go back to the *FUCKING CIRCUS, CLOWN* 🤡🤡🤡🎪
@ I don’t think it has much to do with Toriyama’s understanding of Dragon Ball. Yeah, he probably forgot some stuff, but it’s not like he scripted the show’s episodes. For the show, he basically just gave major plot points. How the scenes were scripted and handled were basically just Toei. The manga is better, but even that wasn’t scripted by Toriyama. He was given editorial power, but you can only expect that to go so far.
GT was a fine ending for the dragon ball series imo. Goku being a kid while everyone is older is a throwback to when the series first started showing how Goku evolved but still has the child like personality to him. The weird team of kid Goku, Pan his granddaughter and trunks the son of Vegeta his rival made the chemistry all the more interesting between them. It also brought back adventure to dragon ball and made finding dragon balls challenging again. Also SSJ4 is pure originality and a fine final SSJ transformation honestly. Also the legacy of Goku forever tears me up seeing how everyone passed on 😢 And pan being old with her grandson.
Damn... yeah, the end of GT was some tragic stuff, the old cast is gone, but I agree that the end hit hard
The ending was literally the only good thing about it. Vegeta was trash the whole series, Goku
Didn’t even care that Krillin died, SSj 4 and SSJ 4 Fusion were supposedly so powerful but neither was really effective when it really mattered.
What makes Zeno erasing Trunks’ universe worse is that it wasn’t just the people who were alive who got erased, it’s everyone in the afterlife too. So his mentor Future Gohan got erased, his mom who had just died and maybe got reunited with Future Vegeta (unless he got purified and reincarnated) got erased, Future Goku got erased, Future Piccolo, etc. And he just doesn’t care?
Zeno is the absolute worst thing to happen to the franchise. There were lots of bad retcons, but now you have an ultimate tier of gods who don't care about life and casually destroys it, while keeping several universes enslaved under a system where it has invincible enforcers who are tasked with destroying planets for the smallest slight. Freezer ended up being subservient and permitted to do awful things and Goku is friends with everyone.
@@dansmith1661What do you want him to do? Fight zeno?
They weren't coming back anyway
@@dansmith1661plus, the Goku and Vegeta claim to have literal god tier power, but they can still get beaten by regular people who've trained hard (Jiren, Hit, Moro, etc.). We're expected to believe they can have the power to be Beerus's replacement some day but they're still too weak
@@dansmith1661I mean, Frieza was destroying both while Beerus was alseep and while Shin remained undertrained since Buu killed all the other Kais, including his mentor. Even still, for all his destruction, he spent his time making a profit and running an empire in orderly fashion, compared to Zamasu becoming a threat to the multiverse as a whole. Zeno really has no reason to kill Frieza when he not only isn't a threat to the multiverse and even now only stays focused on his own universe, but also is someone who can be dealt with by the people who have fought and beaten him before.
In Z leading into GT, Goku's primary concern was who would defend Earth after he's gone, and he trained Uub for that reason. In Super, he doesn't seem to care at all about that or anything else at all.
In the original work training Uub to protect the planet was part of his reasoning, but it was ultimately a selfish thing to do because what he REALLY wanted was someone to fight against.
Super goku is not THAT different from Z goku.
@@genoremsuper goku forgot what he learned from his training with kami, had to learn again how to control his transformation like with grade 4, couldnt tell it was beerus in a torn apart giant monaka suit, never kissed his wife, is overly joyful compared to how he was in Z especially at the end, doesnt care one bit abt gohan or goten and trunks growing stronger, etc etc
He’s very different from his Z counterpart
@@user-gd1no3gf6d Bro what are you talking about?
When did he forget anything from Kami? If your talking about the manga version where he realized he needs to apply all of his lessons from his teachers together to achieve Ultra Instinct then that's not forgetting.
I sure hope he'd have to learn how to control God ki, which is different from normal ki.
yeah, the Monaka thing was dumb filler, never took it seriously, in fact it was hilarious.
The kissing thing is a mistranslated joke.
Z Goku was CONSTANTLY in situations where he HAD TO take things seriously. Super Goku is not. Super goes a little too far with his aloofness in peace time, but he remains a straight up genius in battles.
Goku outright talks about wanting to let Gohan be who he wants to be and how he respects him for it. Chi-chi is clearly putting more effort into Gotens studies.
He's in a totally different environment than Z Goku who died, trained a year out of need, resurrected and put in the hospital, healing and training out of need, got his body stolen and beaten up, healed and escaped an exploding planet, took a year to learn Shunkan Ido, returned to Earth to train for 3 years out of need, had a heart attack, healed and trained out of need, died for 7 years, resurrected by Old Kai because he was needed to fight danger.
Super Goku is the most relaxed we see Goku outside the original Dragon Ball.
@@genoremafter rereading z Goku genuinely is an almost completely different character personality wise to super it's kind of insane
Probably because super is an interquel? Goku didn’t need to worry about the next savior because super is in between buu being washed by a spirit bomb and the 23rd world martial arts tournament, they haven’t even gotten to the point where he needs to start worrying
This video made me realize what makes Future Trunks so unique. He sees himself as a human and nothing more. His Saiyan powers as a tool to help humanity. He doesn't give a s*** about his blood or about fighting and doesn't have the weakness of Goku and Gohan of thinking maniacs that destroy planets for fun can be redeemed.
He is everything that Gohan should have been but never was. Someone who only fights because "great power comes with great responsibility" and is wiling to spill blood in the name of peace. He gets things done without getting distracted by pride or selfishness, unlike Vegeta.
It's a rare case where having less flaws actually makes a character feel more human.
Ironically one of the arguments I always hear for why GT haters hate GT is that Goku being a kid again felt like a regression of character but those same people like Super where there is an actual regression of character problem. GT for all it's faults at least understood where the characters arc would lead them. Krillin happily married, Vegeta becoming comfortable with earth being his home as well as caring about his family. Vegeta had the biggest respect placed on his character, his lines were great, his character felt like a positive and his respect for Goku showed so clearly, making it undeniable that he really changed after Goku beat Buu. Trunks may not have my favorite fit in GT but it's still grew on me after a bit.
Those same GT haters are also glazing Daima rn
@LyricMammal Ironically they were probably also hating daima before it released. Sometimes I feel like Dragon Ball has one of the most bipolar fanbases ever. Daima does look fun at least, I plan to watch it later when I can binge it.
so goku regression is not being serious all the time?
How can u say that super has a character regression when gt does that with every character but goku
What I don't like about gt fans is how gt fans tend say super goku regressed as a charter and fighter when everything super goku does where traits shown in z the top and goku making it was actually save the universe because Zeno was going to destroy it because he felt humans didn't care about their universe but let's even ignore that and say goku just did this to fight is this not same goku in the buu saga that risked human lives just so he could see if the next Gen could protect earth they will also say goku is a bad martial artist for using blue but in z and gt he uses ssj3 also they claim vegeta has grown and only cares about earth when he is mad about super 17 asking for goku and sometimes goes back to z vegeta bitter rivalry with goku and gogeta acting like gotenks 2 there are a lot more characters I could name in gt handled poorly or regressed some of the bad things u see in super is by their and arenot in super goku not kissing that fans complain about which is weird is no t present in the super Manga vegeta always being this person who wants to beat goku not present in the Manga in fact now vegeta is finding his own way of power and a transformation that fits his character unlike gt so most character problem u have are not in Manga and they are toei changes
Future trunks in super ain't the drink, he's the powder💀
buddy's the hydrogen
he’s the fart
@@fuf9359a wet fart
Sybau bro🤦🏽
@@fuf9359lol he's the drunk
Finally!!! A safe space where I can say that GT is better than Super.
gt is not and will never be better than super if retcon was an anime it would be gt and if u actually watched the series you'd know but no db fans are dyslexic tards
So many points brought up in this video that reminded me of various 4 hour+ discussions Ive had with friends in the past lmao
Great video tho I do love the slice of life episodes of Super & a handful of concepts but like GT both had their issues.
Tho 1 thing I think was underrated about GT was the fact most of the fighters wore street/casual clothes when fighting.
To me personally thats just a dope concept. Having a casual day out but then being ready to box on the spot haha
Thanks man! Yeah I agree with that last part, especially with goten and vegeta. Makes it a bit more realistic and feels like these people are just living their lives in a time of peace
yooo JaxBlade
The GOAT has spoken. 🔥🔥
Thank you! I'm tired of people defending Super and shitting on GT, when despite its setbacks, GT actually feels like it's part of the DB universe. Super has legit turned into the Dragon Ball April Fools meme
Right right, Toei's crashgrab feels more part of Toriyama's universe than Toriyama's own continuation of the series
gt is trash way trash aint no way ur defending a show that has people sensing androids ki android btw
@@JasonAkuain’t know way your defending that trash dbs show that brought trunks back for fan service then erased his whole timeline for shock value
It also doesn't help that on a pure visual standpoint,..it's more interesting to watch GT due to it being Cell animated,...I can never get over the wonky visuals of Super
@@freshypool6385let’s talk about all those scene of pan getting violated tho, at least super ain’t on no predator nonsense.
Trunks in z: your daughter calls me daddy
Trunks in super:I’ll have your daughter home by 7
😂
When i re-watch super im constantly thinking "why did they do this". For GT all i can think is that if it had better execution it would be pretty good
Pretty much lol
so u your just stupid
GT had a larger amount of good ideas than Super I feel, though I dislike the execution of many of them. Goku training up Uub amounted to nothing, Majuub amounted to nothing, Trunks and Pan mostly hindered Goku or did nothing. The whole Hell thing in the Super 17 arc was silly (why is Android 19 coming out of hell?), lobotomized Nappa grunting for 3 seconds, 18 getting folded by 17 easily (he was stronger but not by that much, no indication that he'd kept training as a park ranger, unlike the Super version). Many of the Shadow Dragons were poorly executed too...To be honest I kind of wish super had been a remake of GT, something that took place past End of Z instead of in the middle, I always disliked that part about it.
@@Lithiumize Honestly I wish they would just scrap super and start again, but have it take place closer to gt’s time
@@KumoBear12 why are fucking braindead if you want gt just watch gt,guy list so many problem with gt and you look and say good idea
No one mentions this: in Super, why does Vegeta wear his armor? He discarded the armor in Z. He discarded the blue tights at the end of Z and in GT. Also, why is Super Vegeta obsessed with surpassing Goku? Don't get me started on the Final Atonement 2.0.
in gt am surprise no one mention this:why does vegeta lost his pride and don't care about training anymore?why did they bring back every villain from movie in the series?why did they turn goku in a kid and make him go hunt for the dragonball are they trying to make it like db 2.0?
@@nickalas666 facts 😂 imagine making a big deal out of what Vegeta decides to wear
@@MajinUltraEgo gt fans are lunatics🤣🤣
@@nickalas666 1. Vegeta still trains, he just doesn't obsess over surpassing goku anymore. 2. They attempted to bridge the movies with the series I guess. 3. That is obviously the intention, just badly executed. Not like they did any different in the latest db daima.
@@nickalas666 They probably hate Daima as well even though that captures Toriyama's vision of the series.
Tbh I think Super was inevitable, Toriyama never wanted to make Goku such a serious character, but his editors at the time kept pressuring him to write more serious characters and plots, and on top of that the anime doubled down on this seriousness. So when Toriyama finally was able to write the story the way he wanted, of course it felt different.
that's an urban legend. Toriyama's the one that wanted to age up goku and write stories like the piccolo saga and the 23rd world tournament. Plus dragon ball itself came into existence because toriyama wanted to stop working on dr slump (because he found episodic comedy to be troublesome ironically enough) but SJ wanted toriyama to keep working, since he was basically printing money for them at the time, so him working on another series was more or less the compromise
goku is a saiyan a warrior race not a hero that’s why he likes fighting a lot
That's not what happened. Toriyama was the one that fought to age Goku up, and his editor got in the way for villains of the android saga, having to change between 19 and 20 to 17 and 18 to Cell and his designs, but Goku himself wasn't in question in the manga, especially with Toriyama making the choice himself to bring back Goku because he didn't think Gohan could work as the protagonist, his choice.
He wrote Goku as serious for like against Frieza and Cell and he was upset and Toei taking that and making him heroic, despite his own work making Goku heroic.
I hate the defense for original creators so much, like with Akira Toriyama and Dragon Ball Super, as well as George Lucas and the Star Wars prequels. The fandoms of these franchises think that if the original creators have complete control, you’re contractually obligated to think they’re good and maybe even better than the original material that were made when they had others to help make a good story, like how George Lucas had others like his ex-wife when making the original trilogy. And I especially hate the automatic hate that a series will get if the original creator isn’t involved in a sequel. The Star Wars sequels deserved the hate, but I definitely feel like most of GT’s hate stems from the fact that Toriyama wasn’t involved with the show, while Toriyama was involved with Super, as well as the defense for “canon”, which apparently makes Super automatically good and better than GT.
@@supersaiyanfox9190 First, the canon argument is nonsense. Nobody understands what canon truly means otherwise they'd know GT and Super are both canon. The existence of Future Trunks makes alternate timelines possible.
Second, what Super fans don't understand is that Toriyama was both involved with the conceptualization of GT, AND enjoyed it as a sequel to Dragon Ball. He drew a Super Saiyan 4 Goku for the Dragon Box set for GT and expressed his love for the series. Saying, "it is a grand side story," is a pretty big compliment for a creator.
The fact that GT pays more respect to DBZ, has more accurate with Z's lore, and actually keeps the spirit of adventure original Dragon Ball had deems it NOT a bad sequel. I'm not sure why people are dead set on calling GT "bad" when it doesn't show any signs of being bad (EPSECIALLY) when being compared to Super and it's faults on how it gets so much wrong about DB. Yeah GT doesn't have any flashy squiggly aura lines or have over the top action scenes like modern DB does but that doesn't make it "bad".
the WORST part about dbgt is big bang kamekamekameha
@@linonion659 reaching
It starts with a plothole
"accurate with z's lore" LOL THATS SO FUCKING FUNNY THATS SO FUNNY
Akira didn't write the story for gt , he only gave them concept art to work off of and told em to run with it... Akira last work was motaro eater of worlds arc , even tho I don't like super either... it is the true continuation cuz Akira wrote it , Akira is DBZ rip the goat 🙏
Super Goku reminds of a slightly grown up TFS Goku.
Oh boy, where have I heard that before? Goku has always been a retard monkey bitch with the mental capacity of a rock. Now the question remains, is Goku the stupid one or is it you for wasting time with Toriyama’s garbage?
frfr
but not funny
This is exactly how I've been expressing GT vs Super. Neither is really good, but GT deserves props for at least giving change and originality a shot.
originality?are you braindead?
I think both are good with their flaws & all.
The reason to why I like Super more is that the themes of each arc are very Toriyama-like, even if GT captures the feel better.
And I also like how Super expanded on the idea of the whole hierarchy of gods in general, the transition feels quite smooth (Even with the massive amount of retcons that come with Beerus alone). GT tries to expand upon the slightly abandoned heritage theme of the Saiyan and Freeza Arcs, which is also pretty cool, but I kind of prefer Super's approach to expanding previous unexplored ideas.
And even if I prefer SSJ4 over almost every form in Super in terms of design in terms of concept and idea, I think I prefer something like the Ultra Instinct, where it retroactively expands on the lessons of Goku's previous teachers (mainly in the manga).
Agreed
agreed
I'm sorry, what themes does Super have? What were the themes of Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, U6 Tournament, Goku Black, Tournament of Power, Broly, or Super Hero? Not even gonna try and mention the manga arcs. Also, what is your definition of "Toriyama-like?"
Is the Golden Great Ape shown during Vegeta's telling of the Super Saiyan Legend not creative enough? What about the expanded Tuffle lore and Tuffle villain? What about the idea of having negative side effects of the Dragon Balls? What did Super do? "oooohhh it's Goku but EEEEEEEVIIIIILLLLLL"
Don't even try and tell me that Ultra Instinct is some amazing and new concept, the lesson that Ultra Instinct was supposed to teach Goku was already done in the manga. In the OG Dragon Ball. BEFORE THE 23RD WORLD TOURNAMENT. And Ultra Instinct's whole thing is about becoming "autonomous." He is not autonomous, in fact he doesn't even win in the same fight he was introduced in. His back gets blown out. WOOWWW, what a COOL and TOTALLY POWERFUL transformation.
The idea of making 12 universes is a good idea, I just think most of these new characters are bland outside of Hit who is a favorite or i guess… a hit lol.
Jiren is decent but alot of these new aliens aren't that interesting.
@@DADRB0B55 fr
7:55 "Super Buu's back, guys, we have to- what? That's supposed to be the fat version of Buu? But he's not fat. He trained so he's buff now? Oh, I bet if he trained some more, he'd become a kid with black air forces."
"GT doesn't ruin characters or retcon certain plot details" The first 5 mins of GT start with DENDE using a MEDKIT to heal Goku
Not really a retcon
lol even I first saw it and took off my glasses in astonishment
That was dub only, the GT dub changed lines from the start
@@Quart321 So i went to go watch the sub and its even worse HE ASKS MR POPO to see to his inuries. this is insane
@ seeing someone’s injuries doesn’t equal to healing them directly
Even tending to them isn’t so much “healing them”
Literally my stance that got me crucified when i was in the anime sector back in 2018. I always thought GT was better than Super for every reason stated in this video, and i also agree that GT was not very good either.
Also, the one thing i did not expect GT to do better was offer a better explanation on how Super 17 was so strong. I will take 2 17s merging over 17 poaching on an island and being able to throw hands with Blue Goku who trained with a literal angel. Looks like Goku could have literally just moved to an island and poached animals and probably would have stopped Beerus when he showed up in SSJ3 lol
DragonBall has so many retcons, it’s hard to keep track
Soo this guy saying toi knows DBz better then the writer
It’s not even that bad in z and og I feel like
@@KumoBear12 its def not as bad in Z and og they just kind a retconed picollo to be an alien but they fixed that now in diama and some dragon ball wishes but some might be not considered a retcon just outplaying the rules
If you look closely to dragonball and read the manga toriyama retcon shit since DB. Remember when the dead body needs to be preserved so they can get resurrected by shenlog? Now in Z schautzu returned even though he blowed himself up@@KumoBear12
@@DrJ19999 I wouldn't say that's a retcon when you take in the context of the different situations. Chiaotzu blew himself up yes, but he was also granted a new body upon death to go train with King Kai. Thus already having a pre-existing body to be revived in.
People forget receiving bodies is a privilege and not the norm. It's likely the likes of those who died before the events of Z never received their bodies and were among the countless floating souls you see in the otherworld line, aside from the likes of Grandpa Gohan who became under the employ of Baba.
It's why Goku didn't need to be revived from being a corpse when he died in the Raditz encounter. If anything they took his pre-existing body and gave it to his spirit form due to Kami. Then when he was revived all that was needed was his Halo to fade any whatever other factors that decide life to kick in.
Sometimes not everything is a retcon, when the context of a situation opens up different paths, if it's not changing an established one.
While Super is has its moments, GT just feels like a better written series and actually feels more real, where as Super feels more like someone took Dragon Ball elements and put them in a blender and the result was Super.
I find myself going back to rewatch GT more than Super.
u mean gt
0:30
Doesn't ruin characters?! Retcon plot details?!
Bruh the show couldnt have started because in canon Kami was dead and Piccolo kept his body outright denying the nameless namekians existence, and was not a magic type but a warrior type, which made him incapable of creating Dragon balls. Meaning the Black Star Dragon Balls can't exist.
You don't necessarily die in Namekian fusion. So if they wanted to do a retcon Black Star Dragon Balls, Nameless Namekian could be a way to go about it. Also Piccolo is a hybrid of Demon, Dragon, and Warrior Namekians.
@@spaceunicorn9170 I know its not necessarily death, he just no longer exists as the same person.
The Nameless Namekian is of the dragon clan, but Piccolo himself noted he was a warrior without Kami's form of magic.
still it is a plot hole among others.
someone only watched DBZA.
So here’s how I understand it: The Nameless Namek, wanting to be like his homeworld, made a set of dragon balls, the Black Star Dragon Balls. But, they almost blew up the world, so he realized something was wrong with him. He went to the Kami of his time, trained, split himself into two, and became Kami and Piccolo, the black star dragon balls turn to stone.
Kami makes the Red Star Dragon Balls, and chills till the Android Saga, where he fuses back with Piccolo. Since they became the Nameless Namek once again, kinda like how red star dragon balls came back with Kami, the black star dragon balls came back.
However, no one knew about them, and they didn’t know about them till after Dende made his set of Dragon Balls.
Where are Dende’s dragon balls in GT? If the Dragon Radar could find Namekian and Kami’s dragon balls, why didn’t it find the Black Star dragon balls? Find out, next time on Dragon Ball Z!!!
@@genorem It's definitely a curiosity.
The original Namekian was of the dragon clan and had the ability to make powerful dragonballs, tied to his lifeforce much like the normal ones are to Kami's.
When he became tainted with evil, he expelled it into the evil Piccolo, and the good Kami, with the former becoming a warrior namekian without magic, and the latter having kept his dragon clan powers. Because the original creator was now gone, those dragonballs became inert.
Why they both didn't stay dragon-clan is... bizarre, BUT it's not like Toriyama had thought of that in dragonball at the time. BUT because they fused once more, the dragonalls tied to his lifeforce were once more active, even if he couldn't create new ones, as he was still recognized as the nameless namekian. Hell, it's basically how he introduces himself to goku after merging with Kami and the former wakes up from his heart virus: "I've forgotten my name, but just keep calling me Piccolo."
Why didn't he become a dragon clan member instead of warrior when they refused? Because Piccolo was the base, not Kami. Why can't he make them given Kami clearly still knew how? I guess because his abilities were now too warrior-centric? I guess DB was an JRPG-Manga all along???
Does it make sense? Not... really. How did no one notice 7 new balls on earth all together?
Still not the worse creative choice ever made though.
Agreed. GT isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But good lord is Super just an awful fanfictiony blatant cashgrab. It's like a reboot made by people who barely even remember Z. Can't believe I am saying this, but GT actually respects the source material, at least better than Super does. The execution was poor mostly, and I can't say they respected the all the characters in GT, but the history was there. (Admittedly the disrespect for many characters started in Z). But Super feels like a fan from the 90s finally got a hold of the canon creative process, and nobody stopped them. Like some fans wanted to insert their versions of Super Saiyan 5,6, and 7, which are just lazy recolors.
nah,they are both equally bad.
@ihat0094
Gt isn't good but it isn't bad and is better than super in terms of concept instead of throwing random shit for arcs
@@SussySuzuki i mean i can agree on concepts but concepts don't really matter when you don't use them right. also dbs had some good concepts,just poorly used like gt.
False; GT is largely terrible and no amount of nostalgia or rose tinted glasses syndrome is going to ever change that. Super ain’t perfect far from it in fact; but it’s far more enjoyable to sit through than GT which is torture outside of the Baby arc & last half of the Shadow Dragons saga.
@@ihat0094 Name the Concept and if you say Goku Black he just Baby or Hakai that just Baby Deathball
Thank you so much! I've been saying damn near all of this for years now, finally some one gets it and can explain it all properly. (I may not agree with some of your GT criticism but...)
You seriously said it best.
Personally like Super better but I did like the Baby arc with the mention of the Tuffles in GT
GT was good i don't care what you haters say. Definitely not my favorite but still good
We are different. I hate GT, i think its stupid executed what ruins it for me but as a Dragonball fan i want that you can enjoy all of dragonball as much as possible. So please enjoy it, i will never hate a fellow dragonball fan just because he likes one of the series what are not for me :)
My biggest issue with Super was its tone. Aside from the Goku Black arc, nothing ever really felt at stake. There was no emotional tension or weight to the events of the plot, because not even the characters themselves gave a shit about what was happening (esp during the Tournament of Power where the side-characters just kinda chill at the bleachers). Even if GT was 80% filler, those emotional peaks resonated 10x's higher than anything from Super.
“I don’t want to mention the movies because then my point that I just made wouldn’t make sense”😂😂😂
I don't know what would change if he talked about the super movies, 2 of them are retold in the anime and super hero only exists to try to give importance to Gohan, which doesn't do it in a good way, the only really good super movie is Broly's
Lol we hating on the god form, but it was meant to look like base form lol. Blue form is meant to be the super saiyan form of ssg, hence why it looks like super saiyan, but blue. If you wanna talk bad about forms, rage and berserker are examples you shouldve focused on
Goku not being able to beat buu is wrong because Goku even says he couldve beaten Buu, but he didnt to give the next generation a chance
Pan and GT Trunks are abyssmal throughout the entire series and their involvement throughout the series is hilariously pathetic
Super at least lets a lot of the characters get a chance to fight and even get big plays against some big bads in the series, whereas the characters in GT do little to nothing throughout the series where them trying to defend the earth feels hollow because we know Goku would just do all the heavy lifting like he did in every saga in that series
Uub, Goku's newest pupil, does little to nothing outside of the couple moments he gets in the Baby arc and becomes fodder through the rest of the series
FINNALY someone who doesn’t glaze GT
God I was looking for this comment. Why are we hating on these forms acting like those transformations weren't cool AF. Calling both these shows bad is just plain dumb. And I absolutely loved the character arcs in Super. The focus being on Goku and Vegeta isn't the end of the world. I find myself disagreeing with almost all his points. Calling Gohan useless in the Tournament makes me think he didn't actually watch it. I just can't with this vid.
@@MichaelWhitworth_DxD the manga is WAY better
The whole Super saiyan god is incredibly stupid. All it takes is 5 good hearted saiyan and one can attain unimaginable power with that simple process is absurd. Even that inspiration was taken from GT when everyone had to transfer power to Goku
@ftu2021 It's not the same as fpssj4. That was Goku asking for more power to beat Baby, which is already insane since this is already in the big new form he just unlocked
How different the requirement for the transformation was impacted the story and Goku throughout his fight with beerus. He hated the way he earned it even tho it put him at a level to interest Beerus
Finding 5 kind hearted saiyans is a nice touch to show the growth of Vegeta and adds to the reasoning why the last super saiyan god was thousands of years ago and is a legend, because most saiyans in universe 7 were cold blooded killers with no care for life, hence why it took someone like Goku to get the transformation to no longer be a legend
The form plays bigger factors like in the Manga with Goku vs Hit, Vegeta vs Goku Black, Goku vs Kale and Caulifla, and even in Broly and the Granolah arc where it's used to demonstrate a distinct fighting style, benefits of less ki consumption, and use with other techniques/transformation allowing for the upper hand in some moments
Finally, someone who gets it. I don’t feel GT is that bad, maybe mid/almost good. But Super is worse than bad.
I feel like if they ever re-do Dragon Ball from de OG to GT, with a artsytle similar to the 90's but for newer generation to actually see DB OG and Z, and change a bit some things in GT we would get Dragon Ball definitive edition.
Thank you so much. I hate Super like you wouldn't beleive. It's written like a shitty fan fiction. GT wasnt nearly as good as Z but it had some iconic moments and it was fucking ORIGINAL rather than Super's formula which is "something from Z returns! But with a slight twist!"
Actually (not to defend Super Gohan) Gohan didn't train for a day but he trained for a year with piccolo
@@Kusichi749 Really? Maybe I missed something, when was that stated?
@@KumoBear12 At the end of Ressurrection F.
@@Kelps.mp4 Ohhh yeah your right my bad. Not that a year of training with piccolo should have been enough anyway, but yeah I forgot that
No, that training he did for a year only brought him to below SSJ Goku Level.
Gohan went from Below SSJ Goku Level to SSJB Goku level in a day.
@@Limitless94829 Man how did that happen again? My memory on this is foggier than I thought lol
I would have loved if somehow skinny Buu looked just like his evil small version somehow, but not evil, still with Buu's funny personality.
11:04 What the author meant:
The Drink lost his liquidity
Omg I was actually going to put a drink meme in the video how did I forget lmao
THEY CALL HIM THE WHAT!?
Man your video nailed it , it was so on point to what i felt of super that this has become my go to video for super fans and their arguments
Honestly I cried after GT
Super is just filling in the cravings of transformations
Idk if you like gt or not, personally i never watched it, but super is a fucking disgrace to the entirety of z and og dragonball, goku's character gets turned into a demented kid, gohan regresses ONCE AGAIN to slacking off, the buu saga itself should have made him realize he needed to train again since even when ssj3 goku was around he was no doubt the strongest z fighter, but nooooooo lets forget every couple years arrives a world ending threath, i'd rather STUDY BUGS. Makes no sense, you can't even say his mother forced him because the instant comeback is "ok, but when another buu arrives you deal with it mom, good luck 🖐 ".
Really, even thinking about it makes me so mad.
Toriyama wrote Super himself, and he butchered it. GT was written by true fans of the franchise and it shows why it makes more sense.
Toei made both GT and Super, Toriyama was only really involved with the manga and movies.
Mate, GT was written by a team on a cruch time frame and had to change the direction of the show at the last second
The only oneto blame was db evolution,wich forced the franchise to continue out of shame of that trash being the last thing of the franchise
Didn't it come out that Toriyama contributed very little to super.... Or was that just a rumor?
This isn’t true. He wrote the movies in super and gave vague ideas for the series. It was mostly written by toei
A really important video.
Dragon Ball Super: Ned Flanders
Dragon Ball GT: Pseudo-Evolved
Honestly, I think GT is vastly superior to Super and seeing people FINALLY give GT love after so much unwanted hatred towards it after Super's run is so nice. I will admit that I enjoyed GT as a kid and while, yes, I think it IS worse than Z, I don't think it's god awful like so many claim. You can tell the people behind GT DID watch OG DB and DBZ, but with Super, it feels like they didn't watch it at all. Every single character in the show feels like a bootleg of the original characters, all their worse qualities from Z/OG are amplified with Goku being the one affected the most by it. It's so damn depressing. I want to pretend like Super doesn't exist like how people pretended that GT didn't exist.
28:08 Akira Toriyama really loved wearing tracksuits, so apparently he decided all his characters did too.
Yes thats the real reason.
Yeah I know, the difference is though, that Toriyama looked like an absolute chad wearing tracksuits. Gohan looks like an absolute dork
This was a great video analysis bro! I never got into super to begin with, however once I was seeing that it was just the goku/vegeta show, I knew the creativity was out the window 🤣. Plus GT has one of the best endings I’ve ever seen which still makes me cry to this day 😭
But thats the ony thing i can say for GT, it felt like an absolute ending what is great, but they way to reach it was just not good
It's insane how I've had every one of these thoughts myself.
Great video
Glad you enjoyed it!
Both series have ups and downs and objectively Super is far more better. In my opinion, i watched gt the Black Star Arc is a mess, the Baby arc probably one of the better ideas. Super 17 is eh, Shadow dragons are cool but it took too long to there there, most of the arcs didnt lead to each other aside from the baby and shadow dragons. Super atleast try to connect there story arcs, Some of the lines in super are questionable but i have to say its really good. I get that the argument here is that Toriyama doesn't under what dragon ball fans are but i think its the other way around.
i really miss the fun adventures of gt and original dragon ball :(
I don’t that crap was torture to sit through.
you hate fun
No, YOU hate fun. Bro saw Tournament of Power and went "nah I rather watch child Goku rn"
Bro what are these comments?
what fun adventure gts adventure was shit.
Why does everyone think he trains for a day. He clearly doesn't, he trains with piccolo offscreen. I'm pretty sure piccolo shook off his rust and what we saw was a snippit of their training that was unlocking his potential.
the reason being that we go from Gohan literally tapping himself out by going Super Saiyan against Frieza (btw, a Gohan who had mastered Super Saiyan and could sustain it effortlessly)
then he trained with piccolo on and off for roughly a year after the incident so he can atleast sustain Super Saiyan again, but he is still somehow weaker than Piccolo? (also, that he lost access to his ultimate form, which was said to be automatic after it being unlocked by the Elder Kai, it was never implied that he needed a certain "mastery" or "fitness" to access it, because, let's not forget that Gohan trained LESS after Cell than after Buu, but somehow Gohan could still go SS2 against Kibito effortlessly, while he couldn't even sustain SS1 against Frieza, Gohan didn't train at all during the 7 year time skip, which btw, would've been the most important years to train due to him growing up and needing to develop his muscles, while against Frieza was ... 4, maybe 4.5 years)
but after the exhibition match, he trains 1 more day with Piccolo and ... unlocks Ultimate Gohan again, also that his entire personality went from Gohan to basically DBZ Trunks.
Gohan has a gentle heart, he doesn't like to fight as much as Goku/Vegeta, yet when he trained with Piccolo he instantly becomes as cold as a terminator.
Mfs be forgetting how gohan surpassed gokus power level as a 4 year old by getting a little mad in the saiyan saga
@@andyplays9493 he loose all that power later so doesn't really matter. He truly surpass Goku one he actually train with Piccolo
I agree with the ending with trunks. What i think they should have done if they didn't want him in the show anymore was have whis tell him about the Supreme Kai of time and that she was looking for someone to help her protect time and this would have been a good way to explain how trunks got there and formed the time patrol
GT: Goku chose to stay dead to avoid threats coming to earth, yet Buu shows they will still appear AND Earth’s current fighting force wasn’t enough. He chooses to stay alive, and to find an option to succeed him. Gohan is studying but willing to train once new threats arrive, and Goten and Trunks aren’t focused on fighting, so he trains Uub, then spends time with his granddaughter who WANTS to fight. He won’t be around forever, and if threats continue to arise someone needs to succeed him
Super: Fuck that Goku and Vegeta are the only ones that matter until the newest movie
Litterally every arc in dbz has been "lets wait for goku" dragon ball being mainly focused on goku and vegeta has always been the case please tell me when GT came out with a whole movie and or arc specifically only focused on piccolo and gohan
@andyplays9493 ong, this GTards and this content creator are so stupid
One of the boldest takes on Dragon Ball. I personally do enjoy GT, but more than a lot of parts of super. I'm glad others are starting to discuss this as well.
GT Vegeta is more Mature than the baster version of (Super) Vegeta. Super pulls the most ass pulls in power ups.
Why does GT have the most serious characters and Villains than super ever has, Goku Black was serious up to the point you find out who he really is than its Thunder just dies real fast in the next episode.
I wasn't a huge fan of super since the start, back in 2018 when I watched it. I think a big factor of this was Vegeta and his obsession with surpassing Goku. In Z we get a Vegeta who sacrifices himself to protect the life he's built on Earth. In GT we have a Vegeta who's truly embraced the human life style, but still keeps some of that Saiyan pride within him. In super, well, he could get annoying with his comments on surpassing Goku, I swear they felt repetitive. I'm happy I'm not the only one who thought Goku was plain stupid at times in Dragon Ball Super. Adult Goku has always been an incent soul, but not stupid. Having Goku forget such serious things in such drastic, life and death situations (like the mafuba seal) pissed me off (that ain't my Goku). It's not like Goku hasn't been lovey dovely with Chichi before (man has 2 kids. come on yall), so him acting surprised by Trunks giving Mai the sensu bean always felt goofy to me (maybe if it was a kid goku from db it would make more sense). I'm not In any way saying Super is a stupid anime/manga, and GT is better. GT has it's own faults and straight up '' Tf am I looking at'' moments, (also let's not forget the horrible rap the dub gave it (that has to be a crime against anime itself). That being said, something I've always stated GT got right, were it's characters (or at least for the most part).
You should most definitely rewatch super or at least read it.
Yes, GT definitely undersstood dragonball with those Pan scenes 💀
Im joking chat dont kill me
The potara retcon was so stupid that Toriyama retconned it in Daima. But damage is already done in the Super Manga i guess.
Ah, yes
NOW we're all saying that GT was always better than Super
Kept trying to figure out where the background music is from. Nice use of music from Streets of Rage 2. One of my favorite all time games!
Yessirrrr
He forgot that kibito kai said he unfused with buus help
Ngl ive always liked GT more than Super and think its better as a sequel
So we used to hate GT because it's worse than Z in some ways, but Super was worse in the league of its own. We then started to consider that GT was actually good.
The main advantage GT has is that it moves the story forward (not always in a good way) so it feels like there is payoff. Super on the other hand is set in an intermediate period between the the time skip of the Buu saga, and so far shows little interest in going past the end of the original story. This puts DBS in a timeless vacuum where nothing feels like a regular timeline, and instead gices the feel of something like DC and Marvel comics.
You are 100% on point
I love videos like this because even though I think you're wrong it's very interesting to me to see how other people consume the stories that I also love. And I think it's a good thing to be forced to think about stuff in a new way and maybe get a new understanding or emotion from the story so thanks for making the video Even though I don't agree with you I think it's a great video
To be clear I don't think you're all the way wrong I actually agree with you on a few points especially about Buu but overall I think you and I just feel different things about this series and I think that's pretty cool
Agreed, this is the right outlook to have, unlike some people in the comments lol. Glad you enjoyed!
I think you should do a manga vs anime comparison (DBS)
Dragon Ball GT is an evolution of the franchise that many people didn't like.
Dragon Ball super is basically Dragon Ball as is percieved in stereotypes: Endless meaningless transformations
- It also constantly has Goku being a moron (especially the Monaka costume Beerus fight)
- It constantly has characters acting like their characatures. It destroyed Chichi's development and made her focus on education despite changing significantly in the Buu Saga and training Goten.
In fact in GT chichi although she wasn't the best she literally said Goten should go into space with Goku. She also was even happy when Gohan was initially going to go on the trip.
Not only that but in the Super 17 Saga videl and her flew over to fight the bad guys (They never actually go there in time)
In the Shadow Dragon Saga she showed up to the battle with Syn/Omega Shenron to support her family.
It took Super for people to finally give GT its flowers. Super is such mad trash and GT had a ton of sick moments
You clearly hadn't watched gt in decades, try again if you can stomach the 1st and 3rd arc.
@@genoremstill less episodes than super though
BRO I'VE ALWAYS SAID THIS!! I HATE THAT THEY RUINED DB! Vegeta and even Shenron get soft ASF! Not to mention removing all blood and gore... They really ruined everything that made it so 🔥 to me.. Even made my favorite bro piccolo wack 😭
its called character development dumbass vegeta didnt get soft he just grew up fucking idiot also removing blood is cuz a of japan shit if you'd actually do research instead of being a useless shit to society.
If you think it understands Dragon Ball then why you calling it ass
Like be serious😭
I loved how Goku became more and more of a real parental elder for Pan. He ironically grew up so much after being turned into a kid. Grandparents are the best.
12:35 im so glad you mentioned this. they made his dialogue with zamasu sound so generic and cliche. hearing trunks unironically say mortals was so cringe and childish. like it straight up sounded like the type of shit youd hear on nicktoons.
Why would he not say mortal?Hes not human neither is goku or vegeta so saying something other then mortal is dumb
@@andyplays9493 its something about the way he says it and also the fact that he just says it way too fucking much. it was alright maybe the first couple times but after that it just got annoying and stupid. “MORTALS CAN CARVE THEIR OWN PATH.” “ONLY MORTALS CAN DECIDE DESTINY.” “TASTE THE POWER OF MORTALS!” “MORTALS CAN DO ANYTHING.” like at a certain point this sounds less like trunks and more like a generic shounen protagonist. this is the type of shit youd hear on sword art online, not fucking trunks every five seconds.
@@andyplays9493 imagine if in the android saga trunks just went on a pretentious tirade about how humans can shape their own destiny every five seconds. like ofc trunks hated the androids and it showed, but his dialogue was way more natural and had variety. it wasnt just some philosophical quotes trying to sound mature with no substance. it was mature because it actually was pretty mature at the time. even the funimation dub had more engaging dialogue and voice acting, which is kind of sad.
@@ZeroCloudsZeroSkies The whole plot of the arc was mortals vs gods so of course its gonna be mentioned allot(and honestly it wasnt even said as much as you say it was)trunks vs goku black was a battle of ideology zamasu thought they were a threat that needed to be erased for life to evolve and move forward trunks believed mortals are what push that life forward instead and defeating zamasu is how he proves that how many times did vegeta mention "elite warrior" or "low class" in his fight with goku?
@@andyplays9493 the problem is that trunks was not saying anything remotely compelling, and it got really repetitive. like i said he pretty much refutes any criticism from zamasu with the same trite “mortals can forge their own path” nonsense over and over. the android/cell saga was all about the androids but as i said before the dialogue from him had way more variety and creativity. as for vegeta, he was established as a prideful character from the get go, so it makes way more sense for him to cling onto labels that make him feel important. and the dub gives him fun dialogue that keeps it fresh. same with zamasu. trunks in super just sounds like they ripped his characteristics from a bunch of goody two shoes shounen protagonists and called it a day.
I prefer GT! The soundtrack, the sarcasm, the villains, and the focus on SSJ, it's incredibly beautiful. Now, in Super, EVERYONE became a kid! I ain't seeing anyone against Daima. Yeah, I know it's the last work of Toryama, but damn, are we gonna assume that ain't the same as GT? C'mon boys, let's not joke about this.
"the villains" and theyre nothing unique just copy and pasted from z stfu dumb bitch also daima isnt super fucking idiot if you actually read since most dragon ball fans dont and u fall under that category you'd know daima is before fucking super dumbass
it aint the same as gt theyre literally not even close to fucking gt if YOU ACTUALLY WATCHED IT
Well, wearing armour makes sense because DBSuper introduced new enemies and threats. In Buu Saga, Vegeta didn't prepare for anything bigger than a friendly sparring match, but he was rushed into a battlefield.
He shows up to bulma's birthday party on a yacth wearing the armor... that is what he wears troughout the whole thing damn near, fighting or not. Im sure he could have worn something else fit for battle that isn't that armor
Wearing armor in dbs doesn't make sense considering at eoz he's actually wearing non armor and it's still a type of fighting clothes
@@SussySuzuki True, there were two tournaments he participated in in z, and in none of them he had armor
In GT Gohan never stopped training, obviously he prioritized family and career but he also didn't neglect training because he knew that at some point he would have to fight again. In Super he doesn't train and realizes that he has become useless, he goes back to training so he doesn't do shit and ends up without training again.
1:12 SSJ 100 the 🐐
Trueee
I can still hear the amv's
super was buns we can all just agree on that, ive seen fan series follow up from z so much better
Hey, a random two-man content creator team from the Central-East European country of Poland here! We just wanted to drop in and say this is a GREAT video. It always feels nice to see people from other parts of the world independently reach similar conclusions to you. Really makes you think you might be onto something...
The take on GT presented in this video seems just right. It sure has many flaws, but so does Super... to even greater extent and at the same time it is way too idealized in our community. It must have been due to recency bias of some kind, since with the passage of time more and more critical voices arise. Anyways, one thing's certain - Super really helped us appreciate what came before it a little bit more!
or people with brain who see gt is trash
Thank you!
@@nickalas666 Nobody is denying GT was bad, but I guess the idea Super might be even worse is still to much for many to take.
GT is peak Dragonball
Super is the Goku Show. Nothing happens until Goku does something and it will be dumb.
so your willing to lie to yourself
@@nickalas666how is he lying🤨 Goku literally almost got all universes destroyed cause he wanted to fight
@@smananderson09 another mfer who didn't watch the show
@@smananderson09so we're just forgetting that zeno was gonna do it anyways until Goku showed up
@@cookedflores9444 yea because of Goku wouldn't keep his mouth shut that's why all the universes was mad at him
why is every character sleeping when we need them smh😭
I will wait for new one piece videos love the work ❤️ i did think they did do super kinda badly aswell they had so much potential...
Thanks! I do have at least one one piece video in mind
Liked and subscribed based on the title alone
Looking back, Super almost seems like something someone did to try and sabotage the Dragonball franchise, I’m not even exaggerating.
They made an unwatchable version of dragonball and it’s hard to mess up dragonball.
To their surprise I bet, the masses ate it up.
I have NEVER been able to accept Super, it was void of soul.
Tournament of Power was a grade above early Super but the damage was done. I was DONE lol
Kumo I appreciate your analysis on this topic because I swear I thought I was alone in this thinking initially.
Always cool to find like minded people out here
This is a really great video, and addressed a lot of the the frustrations I've had with the debate between both series.
I personally always thought both series, while fundamentally different, were at least equal in quality. Which some have talen as GT glazing or Super hating. I watch, enjoy, and criticize both as I just love Dragon Ball, just as I would with Z.
Whenever i think of Peak Trunks, I think of not just Z, but also the Z movies.
He might not have had the most dubs in the Z movies, but he was so much cooler, no?
Especially compared to DBS F. Trunks, who comes back, act nothings like how he was written, and gets at least 2 ass pulls ((somehow knowing the Spirit Bomb and Ssj Rage)) and also gets the worst possible ending that essentially takes away EVERYTHING he was fighting for.
#justiceforZtrunks
The accumulated brain damage is catching up to goku in super XD
16:13 Speaking of Old Kai and retcons - in Z he's said that he's been sealed in the Z-sword by someone WEAK, but in Super it's stated that Beerus has sealed him (for some reason).
Idk man, in GT they say that androids have ki, that is a masive contradiction to the cell saga.
Yeah that’s what I said in the video
@@KumoBear12 Yeah it's weird how Trunks says Android 17's ki is similar Android 18's, which he shouldn’t sense neither. But it also brings up the question of how Gero and Myuu made a near identical clone of 17 in hell to start, especially since 17 is a cyborg, not just an android they can build.
I wish there was a way to take the good pieces from these series and work out the story into a compelling continuation for the brand.
Really good video!
Thank you!
I thought I was the only person who felt this was and noticed these things. Video was sooo spot on
Why would Trunks want to live with complete strangers as opposed to people he actually know?
Why would he want to live with a clone of himself? Why would he think that "clone" would be okay with it? And they are not strangers lmao. He has spent a bunch of time with these people. Let’s also not forget that trunks went back to the past after he beat cell in his timeline to tell them the news
@KumoBear12 I meant the alternate universe only had complete strangers. He literally never met them
That is existence.
@@xAznSkyxx I don’t understand what you mean? The alternate universe didn’t have complete strangers, it had the exact same people as the timeline that got erased by xeno.
@KumoBear12 but it's another timeline. It's like when Trunks went back in time for the first time. They are the same people but they aren't. The ones he knew are still dead
The only thing new about ULTRA INSTINCT is its name & its color palette, since it already existed since og DB, in fact, it was MR. POPO who taught GOKU to predict his opponents' attacks, in order to avoid them beforehand.
You reaching with the Trunks part, he's the one who beat the main villain so the writers clearly still care about him. But yea they did his timeline dirty
My point is more so that him being able to beat zamasu (even though zamasu doesn't even die) is not because of his own motivation or want to get stronger, it's just given to him
@KumoBear12 And I understand you but my point at least Something is given to Trunks. Cant say that about a lot of other characters besides goku and vegeta
@@Flipitmixitbeast gohan and cell max
@@maorfahima7315 That was after the dbs anime
@@Flipitmixit it’s apart of dbs it doesn’t matter the anime is not the only continuation of the dbs story (there is the manga and the movies)
Not to mention stupid power creeps of all older characters keeping up to Super Sayian GOD power level....
Super Sayian GOD should be a form that beats every other sayian forms without problems and also no one like Krillan should be even close to super sayian GOD, not to mention Super Sayian BLUE.
Dragon Ball Super is just too broken now to be fixed. Or is it?
The only explanation could be that everyone that is a close to a Super Sayian GOD get's insane power increase. The more close they are to the GOD the stronger they become, it's like shared strength.
So that could explain why GOKU and VEGETA could get Super Sayian BLUE so quickly, and that's why VEGETA got SUPER SAYIAN GOD, because he is very close to GOKU as being a friend and a rival and also the blood of sayians. Others Like Krillan and Mr.Roshi are also friends and master roshi was his master. Gohan getting Super Sayian Beast so quickly because he is a son of a GOD, which is GOKU. Cabba, Kefla and others started to being a friends when they started to teach them how to transform into Super Sayian etc, so that's why they unlock more transformations so quickly.
That could explain almost every power up for everyone, but I think they won't do it, until more and more people will spread and talk about that idea. So maybe one day it become official in the manga and anime.
But anyway yeah the Super transfomrations are boring. It just color change nothing more.
Super Sayian GOD, it looks like Kaioken.
Super Sayian Blue, looks like Super sayian but just blue hair.
Super Sayian Rose, looks like super sayian but pink hair.
Super Sayian RAGE, just looks like Super Sayian but with blue aura inside of super sayian.
Golden freeza, yeah a joke it's just gold freeze.
Black freeza, why are we just changing the colors here? A new form just being black color, comeon.... Cooler had 5th form....
Super Sayiang BLUE evolved, looks like Super Sayian Vegeta 2nd grade when he fought against 2nd Cell form and later perfect cell.
Goku UI - Looks almost like normal Goku.
Goku UI mastered - just silver hair.
Super Sayina Beast, looks like super sayian 2 but with white hair and actually and change that is longer spiked hair but I thnk that;s too little, they could bring back tail to that form. Maybe later Gohan will transfomr into FULL BEAST form, where he looks like Super Sayian 4 but white. And later SUPER BEAST form that looks like Super Sayian 5 with long white hair.
But anyway SUPER should be done again. Like for example Vegitto form should be permanent, and they could say to BUU that can he suck them up to split their form and then spit them out. That would be way better, reminding of what happen in DB Z when they were sucked into Super Buu.
Dragon Ball Super made Gods a frickin joke. The last thing I want to see is Vegeta to become a God of Destruction and Goku to become an Angel. At best, they do absolutely nothing, and at worst, they completely ruin the tension of the franchise. When characters from like Naruto become super strong and wield power from the Gods, like Pain/Nagato, Naruto, Sasuke, Obito, and Madara, it was a big deal, but God power in Dragon Ball Super is pretty pointless and useless, especially when non-God beings like Broly can surpass them.
They literally still can't beat Beerus.
Naruto takes itself more seriously than all of dragon ball, bad comparison. Goku is a carrot for goodness sake
@@genorem Don’t make me laugh, Z’s tension from the Saiyan Saga to the Android/Cell Saga was every bit as serious as Naruto. Power-ups and transformations were taken more seriously as well, like despite Frieza not being a God, his presence and powers during the Namek Saga felt more God-like than the actual characters with God powers. Being a God sucks in the Dragon Ball franchise. SSJ4, with its design, presence, and treatment, is what a God form should be. In Naruto, obtaining God powers makes characters super strong and powerful, like how Gods should be, but in Dragon Ball, obtaining God powers makes characters lame. Oh that makes perfect sense.
@@supersaiyanfox9190 right, because Goku was heavily contemplating the pointlessness of war and how to break its cycle and hold on the Earth, all while chasing down his friend Vegeta(ble) to convince him to come back home to Earth and not fall in the evil clutches of Freezer and his milk product force in search of ultimate power.🤣🤣
@@genorem I don’t want Dragon Ball to be Naruto, but if you’re going to make Gods, actually have them be Gods: almighty, powerful, almost unstoppable, be taken seriously, and be fearful. Don’t make them do nothing, be lame, be tension destroyers, and constantly lose battles to non-God beings. Beerus and Whis started out to be cool in Battle of Gods, but afterwards, they became the worst kinds of characters for an action anime. And the God forms always lose battles against characters who don’t have God Ki, so what is even the point of them?! If you don’t want me to compare to Naruto, then how about Death Note? It’s an anime that also demonstrates how threatening and powerful Gods are, which are the Shinigami, along with wielding God powers, which are the Death Notes. This is just common sense for how to write Gods and beings with God powers.
The thing about dbz is that every transformation felt impactful and powerful. In the saiyan arc, it was about the power of the kaiyoken. In the frieza arc it was about the super saiyan. In the cell arc it was about super saiyan 2. The buu arc wasn’t quite as consistent with that but bear in mind that Toriyama did NOT want to make it. He wanted to end dbz with Cell but was ultimately pressured into making the buu arc. That could explain why the buu arc is not as well received because Toriyama did not put his heart and soul into it. Regardless, it still followed its principle and when super saiyan 3 was revealed, although it wasn’t as effective as the previous transformations, it was still a pretty big deal. Gt followed this principle, making it all about the super saiyan 4, although it still makes no sense that Vegeta was able to achieve it considering he never even achieved super saiyan 2 without Babidi’s majin boost, but I digress. Super on the other hand, completely throws this out the window and throws in new transformations like it’s candy. So when a new transformation is achieved in super it just doesn’t feel as impactful.
We shouldn't presume Buu's sleep cycle based on one scene. He slept for millions of years in his cacoon, so he possibly didn't require longer rest afterwards. Later his biology adapted to human cycles. The sore in the eye is that they used Buu's sleep as an excuse to bring Frieza back AGAIN. Frieza should have stayed dead.
I think it's fair to presume imo. But the point is more that out of every excuse they could have give, that is probably the worst one out of all of them
@@KumoBear12 They dared to tease the audience with Buu singing in and then they made a fool of us.
@@KumoBear12 Idt buu is even allowed since technically he contains the grand supreme kai
GT morons when they find out what a reacurring villian is:😱
toriyama didn’t tell the animators or writers or something about the writing and just wanted to see what they wanted to di
I like watching these videos to see how wrong peoples opinions are when they try to defend GT.