The thing about stacks of mechanics instead of just moves is so true. When I do play Ult, I basically never play chars from smash 4 or ult because I just want movement and attacks and not spell books and modes and power bars and shit
Amen! That is exactly how I feel. And that makes Ult unplayable for me now, because I was constantly just playing against characters I hate. When I did play against simple characters, it was still very fun for me, but I had to face the facts that the simple characters were the weaker part of the meta and I was gonna keep playing against DLC. I had the same experience when I played Smash 4 back in the day. My friend was a top ROB at my college, and the gyro was just not the video game I wanted to play. Your comment and lots of other comments and moky are totally right. I'm glad this is the state of the discussion.
i actually like when characters have to be altered to fit into smash, rather than just adding so much shit, from 64 to brawl each character felt more grounded
Honestly. I prefer more complicated characters. I prefer the meter management aspect of characters like Robin or Hero. Palutena is my favorite non meter Smash 4 character. Sephiroth is my favorite Ultimate character that isn't a slot machine.
Melee's biggest strength by and far to me is its emergent gameplay. Character's aren't complex because they have tons of implemented mechanics, they're complex because their kit is designed in a way that allows for players to innovate in all dimensions. Take fox shine for example: you have a relatively simple move. It comes out quickly, hits you in a specific direction with a set force, and it can be jump cancelled (it can also deflect projectiles but that's less important). Simply the act of it being jump cancellable already introduces out of shield options, shine turnaround upB, shine into a SH aerial, shine upsmash, etc etc. Add wavedashing, a universal piece of emergent gameplay caused by a very freeform physics engine, and you get waveshines and all of the potential that comes with that. With Falco this all allows for pillar combos, shine bair, shine SH laser, etc. Melee in general is like this; adding DI makes the combo game infinitely more complex than it would've been otherwise. It feels like platform fighters nowadays, in an effort to emulate that natural complexity, are adding things that feel very forced and unintuitive in order to make their game seem deeper. I think the worst part is is that it's unavoidable, modern Melee is a product of its players not its devs, and you can't rely on a game to have 20 years of history to become as complex as Melee. You're either forced to have a simpler game or forced complexity, it's quite a dilemma.
This is totally true. A lot of older games are have natural emergent gameplay to them because they all came out during an experimental, fast moving period of gaming. There was less preplanned stuff, and there was enough room for the game to be 'what it wants to be' so to speak. Not to anthropomorphize games strictly, but older games in general have a sort of romance to them you don't see in anything nowadays because modern games are very self referential in terms of what a game is 'supposed' to be-- From mechanics to their meta. Almost nothing in modern smash games have unique knockback angles, you can't bridge a combo by jumping in deep with a bair that hits sour, but launches forward because you're facing the opponent and drifting into them. That's more of a self conscious response of things not necessarily working in the way players might intend.
I believe that a mix of good fundamentals and also interesting character mechanics are both important (tho fundies are def more important). My counter to mechanics not being important is characters like ice climbers, and Yoshi, beloved and unique characters in melee's roster. Icies dysyncs are not intuitive at all, most people would never learn about these unless told and taught, yet with dysyncs you get a nearly endlessly complex character that requires tons of creativity and brainpower to wield at the highest level in neutral (punish is straight forward with handoffs, yet those are also not intuitive at all and also weird and complex!). Yoshi is basically from a diff game, they have a weird double jump, their up-b doesn't recover, and their shield operates completely differently than anyone in the cast, but BECAUSE of these differences we get double jump cancels, super armor, the weird shield allows for yoshis parry system, and so much more. Just because it's different, doesn't make it easy/bad.
Imo on top of this, a huge part of the problem stems from the fact that the Melee team was just trying to make a dope game, while these new devs are just trying to emulate Smash. Most of the time, instead of coming from a place of genuine excitement and innovation, the very reason these games exist is to emulate Smash’s popular formula (imo even though Melee is my main focus here, I do think it applies to Ultimate as well especially when we see games like Multiversus adopting crazy mechanics for every character). As you said, Melee’s depth is a result of the players, not the devs. Almost nothing that makes Melee the beautiful game that it is was intentional, at least not entirely, so how do devs expect to emulate it? Lol. Melee’s physics engine is a thing of beauty because it is an open sandbox, not a playground with a bunch of pre-built equipment.
@@wildcard126 I also think this freedom allowed them to do things like make joke characters. In Ultimate and newer plat fighters it feels like they tried really hard to make every character viable, every character is a high tier, they all have an archetype and a gameplan to win. In melee they just said "fuck it make pichu shitty Pikachu. Make him hurt himself. Game and watch? Fuck it just kinda copy Mario and change a little". Idk I think it's part of what makes this game more interesting, giving people slightly shittier characters forces them to innovate and maybe figure out some less obvious strengths. It sounds stupid but unbalanced rosters are fun
@@chickenswallowyeah that's a kind of bane of modern characters in fighting games. I've been playing a lot of 2d fighters lately, and I fell in love with Vampire Savior (Dakrstalkers 3, give it a shot its crack) in this nearly 30 year old game, some characters suck more than others like Anakaris, while some just have everything like Talbain (Gallon or Wolf). Every character is these old games feels so polarizing, where as in these new games they feel like different flavors of the same smoothie. Games like Rivals do a good job of making each character unique, at the cost of each characters playstyle being rather homogeneous. In melee, you can see the differences between IBDWs and Moky's and anyone else's foxes. In Rivals, a top level Kragg is doing the same thing your ranked nemesis is doing just a but better and more consistent. There isn't as much individuality in these games due to the paint by numbers sort of feel these characters have rather than the empty silhouette melee gives you for each chatacter
I don’t know why some people think Melee players need to play other platform fighters, I think it’d be nice and cool but it will never happen. Melee players play Melee because it is Melee, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I think trying to truly chase after that hyper specific audience is a fool’s errand, because they will go back to playing Melee as their main game anyhow. Especially since certain unique aspects of Melee that players like (no input buffer as an example) would be very risky to implement. While I do agree with some of his points, especially with how they handle speed (pls stop adding wavedash macros, it’ll be fine with input buffering!!) I think platform fighters are better off chasing after different audiences rather than Melee/FGC people if they want to grow.
The best games are simple - tennis, football, basketball. What makes them cool is that you can slice the ball, do a rainbow flick, or do a crossover ankle break.
Rivals of Aether already is the exception to that. Has a lot of deep mechanics and many similar mechanics to Melee, but they are just easier to do and don't have to break your hands to do them.
@@DerpsGW Fornace has absolutely shown he's a Melee fan. So it's not surprising that it has mechanics and tech that are a modern rendition of Melee stuff.
he's just right. idk. I like trackmania for the same reason. the ceiling is so high that when you watch the top top top level players you realize even your imagination isn't quite on their level because you're too slow to even try for their strats and its the same for melee imo (though I haven't played in years, i just watch now) its like the goal of the game is to make you improve in different directions, melee asks you to get faster as well as more accurate and a lot of these other ones only ask you to get more accurate? (again, similarly to moky, talking in generalities, not 100% of all comparisons)
The attractive thing about melee is that it’s so layered, but that’s also a huge deterrent for some people who just want to spam f-smash and do stupid shit. I think games like MVS are more so aiming at the ladder group, which is why they end up so heavily criticized by Melee players. I think Rivals 2 has a chance to be a really good intersection between the two camps and that makes me really excited
(Almost) No input buffering, simple but deep mechanics, and difficult recoveries (such as punishing jumping too early out of hitstun) are things that no other plat fighter has and keep me hooked on melee
genuinely asking, how does having NO input buffer have appeal? there’s definitely a point where there’s too much like in ult but I feel like it’s kind of an arbitrary thing that makes the pretentious melee-heads pride themselves on.
@@the0therethan It feels like you are the character instead of piloting a character is the best way to describe it. AS someone who has played a lot of different fighting games. Also, execution is just simply really hype and creates amazing moments. The feeling of finally putting stuff together and realizing "you can do that?" hits so much better.
I will say, league at least simplified building a bit in a sense of if you're a tank you have items that give AD or AP then health then armor or MR. But, you can't spend time reading items in the game without falling behind a lot very quickly.
He’s absolutely right about the first point. First and foremost why fighting games in general are fun for people and why they stick with them is the feeling of improvement. But I think that is at odds with his other point of keeping the games simple. I get what he means, less character gimmicks more mechanical game depth, but if the gimmicks add depth to a character then learning about those gimmicks is part of that feeling of improvement, it’s just not the most fun part of improvement. It’s always going to be more fun to practice mechanical skills, then exercise rote memorization for character knowledge, but the payoff is the same. Even Melee has this. Learning to beat Falco’s lame ass laser spam is a great example. This concept is a consistent road block for beginners until they actually put in the time to learn the spacing and timing to punish it and it might be boring to practice it, it feels good to finally kill a stupid bird for lasering. Anyway what I mean is fuck Falco
another factor its also people have invested so much time in this game, what they dont wanna loose their progress and switch game. Its like every other long term game.
I think you lost the plot a little bit around 6:00. You start talking about like how the complexity hurts the ability to just “sit around smoke weed and play video games”. I was just a little confused because this seemed like a discussion about the more competitive side of gaming. I think there’s a huge difference between casual melee players and yourself moky. I also think the vast majority of melee players today are casuals and many of them think they are competitive. I’m just saying your argument just got muddy and i still agree that more mechanics doesn’t always equal more fun. In league of legends a lot of the joy is slowly but surely chipping away and building knowledge so each game you get a little bit better. Specifically, these are mechanics that are developed and changed month by month so it has a very different content cycle. The joy of melee is trying to push the speed limit of the game as far as you can, almost the opposite of league. In melee the development is completely removed while in league the development is a living breathing part of the game.
Melee honestly just did it so right from the defense, the offense, the pace, the counter play, the simplicity, the variety of characters which more goes towards movement and aerial speed and ground speed which dictates how you interact differently to all different characters rather than a whole different sets of move and the same aerial speed which is what all other fighters feel like to me, p+ actually also did it very good even though it doesn’t feel as smooth as melee to me so it’s definitely one of the best
I feel like wanting every character to be simple makes a game less appealing to a majority of people. It's nice to have those simple characters of course, but some people like those more complicated mechanic characters. Obviously, it's a person to person thing and it's fine if you don't like those weird complicated chars though.
The characters in melee with what I would describe as complicated/weird mechanics, with the exception of Yoshi and peach, are all pretty bad. They can still kind of win it's just a lot harder, but they also have the abnormality of their tools as a slight competitive advantage
This outlines a lot of problems i had with Rivals 1. You look at Zeebee and (no shade hes really good) you kinda just see him doing what a typical kragg would do on ranked just with more consistency and success. Its not like watching a high level falco vs a mid to low level falco in melee, where the difference in not only their speed, but move choice and neutral interactions are immediately discernable. Not only that, but other platformers lack the defensive responsibility that melee has. No good CC, No slide offs, no vectoring, nothing but DI and nerfed SDI. getting hit in rivals sucks, its almost always death with little to no counterplay. Hoping Rivals 2 allowas for more defensive responsibility while being more pubishing of those who dont put the time into thoss skills
Biggest difference is long hit stun. In melee someone gets a hit and if they're good theh can combo to death. Other games are just 1 or 2 hits and reset because they will reversal you
The average platform fighter now is about one neutral win = death. They tend to give you more options in disadvantage but do not remove the ability to make people explode off one hit.
Rivals of Aether is my personal favorite of the platform fighters, with Melee/Project + being an extremely close second. I feel like Rivals does everything that Melee does right, but makes basic movement (not even taking into account movement tech, just MOVING) feels far smoother compared to Melee. I went back to play Melee, and oh my Lord, the lack of input buffer makes that game MISERABLE to pick up and play without continuous practice just to understand how to walk around and attack. It's like trying to ride a motorcycle without knowing how to ride a bike. I feel like Rivals does enough by making basic character attacking and movement less "sticky". I don't ever think I'm fighting the controls. All of this rings true for Project M/+ as well. I do sort of miss the ledge and shielding in Rivals, but the crisp, fluid, responsive movement more than makes up for it (personally).
Melee still has a barrier to entry, it’s just a physical one instead of a learning one. Either way you can’t really tell if you like the game till you invest quite a bit of time in it because until you do, you quite literally aren’t playing the same game. Some people are learners, some are doers. If you’re a doer, you’ll probably like how melee does things better. Neither is necessarily better, just different and up to preference.
Another issue with other games is that a lot of devs are worried about balance over gameplay. I'm really not a fan of Ultimate because there's too much problem solving in characters now. Fox has a good recovery because it was bad before. Pikachu has a spike now because he didnt have a spike. Every character has broken OoS options because no one wants to be stuck in shield. Fighting for ledge isn't fun so we just buffed waiting at ledge instead. No one wants to position or be precise with their moves so hitboxes and endlag are nonexistant on most characters because well its more fun when the game is aggro, right? I dont like how a lot of fighting games just wanna make every character feel viable. And instead of being viable they just retool the game so that its easier and easier to play. A bad character in Ultimate is still gonna be a bad character, even moreso if the stuff you buff benefits everyone else. This is why I respect Street Fighter 6. It has bad characters, but they're bad because they aren't strong, not just because "oh every character has the same strenghts and weaknesses because its more balanced that way."
the main thing for me is that every new platform fighter that comes out is directly competing with melee, and none of them have been able to hold a candle to melee, so I find no point in getting into them
Most modern games are designed to have you jump in and feel like a god. Melee is more like learning to skateboard. You suck ass at first but watch others at the skate park do sick shit and get motivated. Most games don’t allow this kind of learning curve and most players won’t have the patience for it. It’s like gunz the duel or starcraft 2. Every other “fast” platform fighter I’ve played skips the learning phase.
Ngl the points on like Monado arts or zetterburn’s burn state are incredibly dumb. If you don’t play the game for more than a day I don’t expect you to know what everything does but most mechanics in these games are not complicated at all to understand. You just have to play the game for like a week and then you probably know every single mechanic in the game. I have an issue with ults roster size making this difficult at a high level but like every other platform fighter is extremely manageable.
Play sheik, gnw, or puff then. Or even like Samus where you don't need to aerial much. The problem isnt l cancelling, it's that you don't like melee and that's fine tbh
I like most of ur points and agree with them, however I didnt like and don't agree with your opinion that you "want everyone to play the same characters". Character diversity breathes life into a game, yes if melee didn't have fox or Falco, it'd have prolly died a long time ago, BUT if every single game was fox dittos/fox and falco were the only two characters, it would have died even quicker than that. The fact that In the same game as fox dittos, you can have peach vs puff, ice climbers vs Yoshi, is incredible. Sure some characters can be "wack" like finn in multiverse, but that's the learning curve. If no weird character like ice climbers ever existed, then suddenly they did in a new game, youd say the same stuff.
I misspoke on that, i meant to say i want everyone to play the same versions of characters, like no different move sets or perks to change what a characters moves do
The thing about stacks of mechanics instead of just moves is so true. When I do play Ult, I basically never play chars from smash 4 or ult because I just want movement and attacks and not spell books and modes and power bars and shit
Amen! That is exactly how I feel. And that makes Ult unplayable for me now, because I was constantly just playing against characters I hate. When I did play against simple characters, it was still very fun for me, but I had to face the facts that the simple characters were the weaker part of the meta and I was gonna keep playing against DLC. I had the same experience when I played Smash 4 back in the day. My friend was a top ROB at my college, and the gyro was just not the video game I wanted to play.
Your comment and lots of other comments and moky are totally right. I'm glad this is the state of the discussion.
As a competitive TF2 player, this is exactly how I feel about games like overwatch and other heroslop games.
i actually like when characters have to be altered to fit into smash, rather than just adding so much shit, from 64 to brawl each character felt more grounded
Honestly. I prefer more complicated characters. I prefer the meter management aspect of characters like Robin or Hero. Palutena is my favorite non meter Smash 4 character. Sephiroth is my favorite Ultimate character that isn't a slot machine.
Melee's biggest strength by and far to me is its emergent gameplay. Character's aren't complex because they have tons of implemented mechanics, they're complex because their kit is designed in a way that allows for players to innovate in all dimensions. Take fox shine for example: you have a relatively simple move. It comes out quickly, hits you in a specific direction with a set force, and it can be jump cancelled (it can also deflect projectiles but that's less important). Simply the act of it being jump cancellable already introduces out of shield options, shine turnaround upB, shine into a SH aerial, shine upsmash, etc etc. Add wavedashing, a universal piece of emergent gameplay caused by a very freeform physics engine, and you get waveshines and all of the potential that comes with that. With Falco this all allows for pillar combos, shine bair, shine SH laser, etc. Melee in general is like this; adding DI makes the combo game infinitely more complex than it would've been otherwise. It feels like platform fighters nowadays, in an effort to emulate that natural complexity, are adding things that feel very forced and unintuitive in order to make their game seem deeper. I think the worst part is is that it's unavoidable, modern Melee is a product of its players not its devs, and you can't rely on a game to have 20 years of history to become as complex as Melee. You're either forced to have a simpler game or forced complexity, it's quite a dilemma.
This is totally true. A lot of older games are have natural emergent gameplay to them because they all came out during an experimental, fast moving period of gaming. There was less preplanned stuff, and there was enough room for the game to be 'what it wants to be' so to speak. Not to anthropomorphize games strictly, but older games in general have a sort of romance to them you don't see in anything nowadays because modern games are very self referential in terms of what a game is 'supposed' to be-- From mechanics to their meta. Almost nothing in modern smash games have unique knockback angles, you can't bridge a combo by jumping in deep with a bair that hits sour, but launches forward because you're facing the opponent and drifting into them. That's more of a self conscious response of things not necessarily working in the way players might intend.
I believe that a mix of good fundamentals and also interesting character mechanics are both important (tho fundies are def more important). My counter to mechanics not being important is characters like ice climbers, and Yoshi, beloved and unique characters in melee's roster. Icies dysyncs are not intuitive at all, most people would never learn about these unless told and taught, yet with dysyncs you get a nearly endlessly complex character that requires tons of creativity and brainpower to wield at the highest level in neutral (punish is straight forward with handoffs, yet those are also not intuitive at all and also weird and complex!). Yoshi is basically from a diff game, they have a weird double jump, their up-b doesn't recover, and their shield operates completely differently than anyone in the cast, but BECAUSE of these differences we get double jump cancels, super armor, the weird shield allows for yoshis parry system, and so much more. Just because it's different, doesn't make it easy/bad.
Imo on top of this, a huge part of the problem stems from the fact that the Melee team was just trying to make a dope game, while these new devs are just trying to emulate Smash. Most of the time, instead of coming from a place of genuine excitement and innovation, the very reason these games exist is to emulate Smash’s popular formula (imo even though Melee is my main focus here, I do think it applies to Ultimate as well especially when we see games like Multiversus adopting crazy mechanics for every character). As you said, Melee’s depth is a result of the players, not the devs. Almost nothing that makes Melee the beautiful game that it is was intentional, at least not entirely, so how do devs expect to emulate it? Lol. Melee’s physics engine is a thing of beauty because it is an open sandbox, not a playground with a bunch of pre-built equipment.
@@wildcard126 I also think this freedom allowed them to do things like make joke characters. In Ultimate and newer plat fighters it feels like they tried really hard to make every character viable, every character is a high tier, they all have an archetype and a gameplan to win. In melee they just said "fuck it make pichu shitty Pikachu. Make him hurt himself. Game and watch? Fuck it just kinda copy Mario and change a little". Idk I think it's part of what makes this game more interesting, giving people slightly shittier characters forces them to innovate and maybe figure out some less obvious strengths. It sounds stupid but unbalanced rosters are fun
@@chickenswallowyeah that's a kind of bane of modern characters in fighting games. I've been playing a lot of 2d fighters lately, and I fell in love with Vampire Savior (Dakrstalkers 3, give it a shot its crack) in this nearly 30 year old game, some characters suck more than others like Anakaris, while some just have everything like Talbain (Gallon or Wolf). Every character is these old games feels so polarizing, where as in these new games they feel like different flavors of the same smoothie.
Games like Rivals do a good job of making each character unique, at the cost of each characters playstyle being rather homogeneous. In melee, you can see the differences between IBDWs and Moky's and anyone else's foxes. In Rivals, a top level Kragg is doing the same thing your ranked nemesis is doing just a but better and more consistent. There isn't as much individuality in these games due to the paint by numbers sort of feel these characters have rather than the empty silhouette melee gives you for each chatacter
moky on gooning when?
0:38 he picks his nose
good catch
picks the side of his nose
LMAOO
appreciate the good work
Thanks
I don’t know why some people think Melee players need to play other platform fighters, I think it’d be nice and cool but it will never happen. Melee players play Melee because it is Melee, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I think trying to truly chase after that hyper specific audience is a fool’s errand, because they will go back to playing Melee as their main game anyhow. Especially since certain unique aspects of Melee that players like (no input buffer as an example) would be very risky to implement. While I do agree with some of his points, especially with how they handle speed (pls stop adding wavedash macros, it’ll be fine with input buffering!!) I think platform fighters are better off chasing after different audiences rather than Melee/FGC people if they want to grow.
The best games are simple - tennis, football, basketball. What makes them cool is that you can slice the ball, do a rainbow flick, or do a crossover ankle break.
You mean association football correct?
I think he makes fair points, but I think, and I hope, Rivals is going to be the exception
No that shit sucks
Rivals 2 feels REAL good to play to me
Rivals of Aether already is the exception to that. Has a lot of deep mechanics and many similar mechanics to Melee, but they are just easier to do and don't have to break your hands to do them.
@@DerpsGW Fornace has absolutely shown he's a Melee fan. So it's not surprising that it has mechanics and tech that are a modern rendition of Melee stuff.
Looks fun but I'm not a furry.
he's just right. idk. I like trackmania for the same reason.
the ceiling is so high that when you watch the top top top level players you realize even your imagination isn't quite on their level because you're too slow to even try for their strats and its the same for melee imo (though I haven't played in years, i just watch now)
its like the goal of the game is to make you improve in different directions, melee asks you to get faster as well as more accurate and a lot of these other ones only ask you to get more accurate? (again, similarly to moky, talking in generalities, not 100% of all comparisons)
2:50 other games put you in an F1 car, but in melee you’re Fred Flinstone and you gotta put in the work to move that fucker 🦶💨🚘
The attractive thing about melee is that it’s so layered, but that’s also a huge deterrent for some people who just want to spam f-smash and do stupid shit. I think games like MVS are more so aiming at the ladder group, which is why they end up so heavily criticized by Melee players. I think Rivals 2 has a chance to be a really good intersection between the two camps and that makes me really excited
(Almost) No input buffering, simple but deep mechanics, and difficult recoveries (such as punishing jumping too early out of hitstun) are things that no other plat fighter has and keep me hooked on melee
genuinely asking, how does having NO input buffer have appeal? there’s definitely a point where there’s too much like in ult but I feel like it’s kind of an arbitrary thing that makes the pretentious melee-heads pride themselves on.
@@the0therethan It feels like you are the character instead of piloting a character is the best way to describe it. AS someone who has played a lot of different fighting games. Also, execution is just simply really hype and creates amazing moments. The feeling of finally putting stuff together and realizing "you can do that?" hits so much better.
@@the0therethanbecause even 1 frame of buffer means input delay and less precision
@@ssbVanilla buffer and input delay are independent from each other
"I want this to be fast and we should all play the same character"
Fox only -FD- no items is real
I have to agree, and I even like other platform fighters, but there isn't the same hype factor with improvement in others
2v2s are sick asf ik he a hater but it’s my preferred mode over 1s tbh. I just have more fun with it
I like these longer clips of him expressing his opinion
I will say, league at least simplified building a bit in a sense of if you're a tank you have items that give AD or AP then health then armor or MR. But, you can't spend time reading items in the game without falling behind a lot very quickly.
He’s absolutely right about the first point. First and foremost why fighting games in general are fun for people and why they stick with them is the feeling of improvement. But I think that is at odds with his other point of keeping the games simple. I get what he means, less character gimmicks more mechanical game depth, but if the gimmicks add depth to a character then learning about those gimmicks is part of that feeling of improvement, it’s just not the most fun part of improvement. It’s always going to be more fun to practice mechanical skills, then exercise rote memorization for character knowledge, but the payoff is the same. Even Melee has this. Learning to beat Falco’s lame ass laser spam is a great example. This concept is a consistent road block for beginners until they actually put in the time to learn the spacing and timing to punish it and it might be boring to practice it, it feels good to finally kill a stupid bird for lasering. Anyway what I mean is fuck Falco
Welcome back moky clips my beloved
another factor its also people have invested so much time in this game, what they dont wanna loose their progress and switch game. Its like every other long term game.
I think you lost the plot a little bit around 6:00. You start talking about like how the complexity hurts the ability to just “sit around smoke weed and play video games”. I was just a little confused because this seemed like a discussion about the more competitive side of gaming. I think there’s a huge difference between casual melee players and yourself moky. I also think the vast majority of melee players today are casuals and many of them think they are competitive.
I’m just saying your argument just got muddy and i still agree that more mechanics doesn’t always equal more fun. In league of legends a lot of the joy is slowly but surely chipping away and building knowledge so each game you get a little bit better. Specifically, these are mechanics that are developed and changed month by month so it has a very different content cycle. The joy of melee is trying to push the speed limit of the game as far as you can, almost the opposite of league. In melee the development is completely removed while in league the development is a living breathing part of the game.
mogy
Melee honestly just did it so right from the defense, the offense, the pace, the counter play, the simplicity, the variety of characters which more goes towards movement and aerial speed and ground speed which dictates how you interact differently to all different characters rather than a whole different sets of move and the same aerial speed which is what all other fighters feel like to me, p+ actually also did it very good even though it doesn’t feel as smooth as melee to me so it’s definitely one of the best
I feel like wanting every character to be simple makes a game less appealing to a majority of people. It's nice to have those simple characters of course, but some people like those more complicated mechanic characters. Obviously, it's a person to person thing and it's fine if you don't like those weird complicated chars though.
It's just annoying when those complicated characters are all op, melee top tiers with the exception of Falco and puff are pretty easy to understand
The characters in melee with what I would describe as complicated/weird mechanics, with the exception of Yoshi and peach, are all pretty bad. They can still kind of win it's just a lot harder, but they also have the abnormality of their tools as a slight competitive advantage
Agree, Good game is low barrier to entry and high bar for mastery
Looks like Moky is fasting a fast while going fast
2v2s are unexplored in many comp games especially fighters, If counter strike can be 5v5 surely thats manageable.
what about rivals 2?
This outlines a lot of problems i had with Rivals 1. You look at Zeebee and (no shade hes really good) you kinda just see him doing what a typical kragg would do on ranked just with more consistency and success. Its not like watching a high level falco vs a mid to low level falco in melee, where the difference in not only their speed, but move choice and neutral interactions are immediately discernable.
Not only that, but other platformers lack the defensive responsibility that melee has. No good CC, No slide offs, no vectoring, nothing but DI and nerfed SDI. getting hit in rivals sucks, its almost always death with little to no counterplay.
Hoping Rivals 2 allowas for more defensive responsibility while being more pubishing of those who dont put the time into thoss skills
Doubles is my favorite way to play
4:51 hard agree about multiversus. I wanna learn it and know it. I like rivals, slap city, and nicktoons but they havent stuck the same way as smash
Rivals 2 is lookin goated
Biggest difference is long hit stun. In melee someone gets a hit and if they're good theh can combo to death. Other games are just 1 or 2 hits and reset because they will reversal you
The average platform fighter now is about one neutral win = death. They tend to give you more options in disadvantage but do not remove the ability to make people explode off one hit.
Rivals of Aether is my personal favorite of the platform fighters, with Melee/Project + being an extremely close second. I feel like Rivals does everything that Melee does right, but makes basic movement (not even taking into account movement tech, just MOVING) feels far smoother compared to Melee. I went back to play Melee, and oh my Lord, the lack of input buffer makes that game MISERABLE to pick up and play without continuous practice just to understand how to walk around and attack. It's like trying to ride a motorcycle without knowing how to ride a bike. I feel like Rivals does enough by making basic character attacking and movement less "sticky". I don't ever think I'm fighting the controls. All of this rings true for Project M/+ as well. I do sort of miss the ledge and shielding in Rivals, but the crisp, fluid, responsive movement more than makes up for it (personally).
Melee still has a barrier to entry, it’s just a physical one instead of a learning one. Either way you can’t really tell if you like the game till you invest quite a bit of time in it because until you do, you quite literally aren’t playing the same game. Some people are learners, some are doers. If you’re a doer, you’ll probably like how melee does things better. Neither is necessarily better, just different and up to preference.
Another issue with other games is that a lot of devs are worried about balance over gameplay.
I'm really not a fan of Ultimate because there's too much problem solving in characters now. Fox has a good recovery because it was bad before. Pikachu has a spike now because he didnt have a spike. Every character has broken OoS options because no one wants to be stuck in shield. Fighting for ledge isn't fun so we just buffed waiting at ledge instead. No one wants to position or be precise with their moves so hitboxes and endlag are nonexistant on most characters because well its more fun when the game is aggro, right?
I dont like how a lot of fighting games just wanna make every character feel viable. And instead of being viable they just retool the game so that its easier and easier to play. A bad character in Ultimate is still gonna be a bad character, even moreso if the stuff you buff benefits everyone else.
This is why I respect Street Fighter 6. It has bad characters, but they're bad because they aren't strong, not just because "oh every character has the same strenghts and weaknesses because its more balanced that way."
Almost every game that tries to pander to casuals while trying to make it competitive, it almost always falls short for the competitive scene
the main thing for me is that every new platform fighter that comes out is directly competing with melee, and none of them have been able to hold a candle to melee, so I find no point in getting into them
Based
Most modern games are designed to have you jump in and feel like a god. Melee is more like learning to skateboard. You suck ass at first but watch others at the skate park do sick shit and get motivated. Most games don’t allow this kind of learning curve and most players won’t have the patience for it. It’s like gunz the duel or starcraft 2.
Every other “fast” platform fighter I’ve played skips the learning phase.
Ngl the points on like Monado arts or zetterburn’s burn state are incredibly dumb. If you don’t play the game for more than a day I don’t expect you to know what everything does but most mechanics in these games are not complicated at all to understand. You just have to play the game for like a week and then you probably know every single mechanic in the game. I have an issue with ults roster size making this difficult at a high level but like every other platform fighter is extremely manageable.
super mario!
I would play more melee if i didnt have to L cancel. What a chore
Play sheik, gnw, or puff then. Or even like Samus where you don't need to aerial much. The problem isnt l cancelling, it's that you don't like melee and that's fine tbh
@@morganlak4337 I actually really enjoy Smash 2, just hurts my hands unfortunately
@@cheesycheese7100 go vegan
@@StudioSkiesAndWater hilarious AND original!
@@cheesycheese7100 u have to much cheese in ur veins
Used to be someone who wished tech skill was easier. After grinding more tech and hitting my first 0 to deaths from l-cancels i finally get it
I feel like melee is the Jazz of platform fighters. There’s no limit to the ways you can express yourself through your play in the game unlike others
I like most of ur points and agree with them, however I didnt like and don't agree with your opinion that you "want everyone to play the same characters". Character diversity breathes life into a game, yes if melee didn't have fox or Falco, it'd have prolly died a long time ago, BUT if every single game was fox dittos/fox and falco were the only two characters, it would have died even quicker than that. The fact that In the same game as fox dittos, you can have peach vs puff, ice climbers vs Yoshi, is incredible. Sure some characters can be "wack" like finn in multiverse, but that's the learning curve. If no weird character like ice climbers ever existed, then suddenly they did in a new game, youd say the same stuff.
I misspoke on that, i meant to say i want everyone to play the same versions of characters, like no different move sets or perks to change what a characters moves do
If you think doubles isnt as fun as singles youre objectively wrong.
he looks like mac demarco