I was around during the 5 gods era and as a player and fan it was just like moky described. Really exciting seeing who could possible scalp one of them. Armada + Mang was the best rivalry to live through. Opposite characters, playstyles, hell lifestyles, but both incredibly fucking sick and pushing the boundaries of what is possible in the game. Then hearing Moky get all hype about the current storylines, explaining them gave me shivers. Man Moky, I know you're a top player rn but damn maybe you should hop on commentary every now and then and share your excitement over the current stories of Aklo, you, Jmook etc. You've convinced me and gotten me invested just with the infectious enthusiasm and personal view of each player's situation.
Zain and cody playing all the time feels like they are robbing us from their rivalry. When mang0 or armada was playing hbox when they were peak, it felt like we were witnessing their rivalry right before our eyes. Now it feels like we get to see small instances of their rivalry.
I think that’s the part that online ruined. Online has pushed players like Cody and Zain farther than ever and makes the game 100x more accessible, but it somewhat ruins the rivalry I think you can see its effect with Leffen, a lot of people get hype when Leffen plays friendlies in NA because it’s less accessible for him
On the flip side, as someone who doesn’t watch them play on stream all the time, seeing how insanely high level their play has become when they play in tournament is awesome. Personally I hope they keep pushing each other. When I watch them play it feels like a showcase of what the best players can do, and it’s super hype.
You know what the solution to this is? Close Twitch and stop watching their streams all day. I literally do not ever open Twitch except when a tournament is happening and every time I see Zain vs. Cody, it is consistently the best and most entertaining Melee that exists.
I think it’s tough when the biggest “characters” in melee are all kinda taking the year off. Mango, Leffen, Hbox, and Plup are some of the most well known people in the game and they all seemed to give less than their all for one reason or another. It’d be like a year in the NBA where Lebron, Curry, Giannis, and Westbrook all decided to phone it in. It would take announcers and spectators a while to find their footing and latch onto some new storylines. I think a lot of melee fans primarily care about 2 or 3 players that they’re all in on. And unless one of your 2 or 3 was Cody or Zain it was probably a year where you had to find some new players to root for. That’s great for building hype in 2024 and beyond but 2033 will be the growing pains.
New players will always come to take their place. Jmook and slug came out of nowhere as exciting new players. We'll also get new story lines from the old guard fighting the new guard from guys like S2J taking the title of "King of New York" from Aklo.
This is what irritated me the most. Mango did everything he could to devalue every tournament all year and then has the gall to release a video wondering what happened.
I was really stoked about the Mango rivalry with Zain because Mango is my favorite player and I really was amazed by the meta they were pushing with their respective characters. I like watching Cody and Zaine play a lot too for similar reasons, but i'm definitely biased as I just get hyped about Mango's involvement. However, I do think the scene would probably benefit from them not showing their playing so much, it just takes a little bit of the uncertainty and excitement from it compared to times when star rivals weren't playing as much unless it was in a GF for a big tournament. There are pros to it though, getting see super high level develop all the time. Maybe it will lead to advancements in the meta around fox and marth happening more quickly, which is undeniably rad for those of us really invested in that aspect of competitive melee. Also, I think it would be super hype if Cody picked up Falco as a fulltime secondary.
Maher being a Young Sheldon fan is the funniest thing I've ever heard. I used to get smacked around by that guy when we both still lived in New Brunswick.
We NEED WWE style promos pre-set and pre-top 8 at tourneys. There is plenty of down time while waiting for top 8 and sets to begin (like handwarmers). During that time, that is the perfect time to recap the current story at hand and set up the importance of the match about to play out. Setting the story out for someone who hasn't been keeping up can make even someone who's never watched melee invested in match at hand.
Commentators like Scar, toph, HMW, vish etc are so iconic because they used to be top players. If we had current top players with commentary skills that would be sick. That’s another reason why commentary at invitationals are so awesome and funny because they’re commentated by current top players. (Listen to the commentary at holiday bash if you want to see what I’m talking about. That was the funniest commentary)
I think losing Scar as a consistent commentator is really hurting in this area. He definitely was a big driver to the 5 gods era's storyline. The commentators do discuss storylines, but none of them package them or hype them up as much he did. It really felt like you were watching history when you would hear him.
moky spitting as usual. I really, really liked his point about people framing things within the year and never "living in the moment" as a result, so to speak. Stories do thrive on context (the past) and uncertainty moving forward (the future), but I still agree with him. Something I gained from listening to this is that IMO the stories in Melee rn are more so told and re-told than developed like a typical story. Sure, commentators talk about Jmook "coming out of nowhere" but it's been that for a long time now. Gotta move the story forward; he was there, now he's here. Where's here? Great ramble, really enjoyed listening.
When mango and Zain were having their #1 and #2 rivalry they were chummy playing friendlies all the time too. Mango just disinterested in what he’s not involved in
Moky was speaking absolute facts here. Jmooks run at Genesis 8 was straight up one of the best ever hypest runs in melee to watch ever. And at the time most were saying it as a fluke. Then Jmook proceeded to literally not miss a single top 8 and beat zain multiple times for all of 2022. Then 2023 he won a super major and then won collision after making a losers run which cody and zain both hadn't done yet he was the first new player to prove they could win from losers. Then he went into his big slump that he's still in now. And with aklo he just has always been good as well since he started attending majors after covid and he had a little slump first half of 2024 but now the last few tourneys he really looks like he's competing with moky for that second best fox spot where he can beat everyone except Zain Mango and Cody is also tough. Even the cody and zain storyline is interesting with amsa and mango disrupting things to where they have only played twice this year like idk all it is to this day is the players and commentators need to realize that there are more interesting storylines than ever and they gotta convey that. Bro before Moky and Cody broke out it was literally just like Leffen was the only good fox main than significant gap and then SFAT. Dfox crush and ice all had good runs here and there but they all stopped playing by 2018.
From an EU perspective on Armada-Hbox matchup. You are staying up on a Sunday untill 2-3am. You manage to get through the winners finals of Armada-Hbox, and if anyone of them lose and get back to the finals. You might be in for 2 set bo5 with stalling at 3am having work the next day.
Melee would 10000% be so much more hype if top players secluded themselves to practice in their own circles, and then came together for the Big Game. Who's gonna win? What have they been cooking? Cody got beat pretty bad last time, will his counterplay pay off? There would be so much more speculation, conversations to be had between majors. Now it's just, "well will cody or zain be better today? Idk."
I don't think there's necessarily a problem with mang0 playing doc lee at tournaments. If mang0 went Doc in grands and threw, that might be a problem. But watching his Marth against S2J is better than watching him beat S2J for the 40th time with his mains. Random secondaries can add to storylines and legacies, and just make for cool content in general. Casual fans love character variety. If mang0 feels the year is a wash, it's better for him to show up and make content, than it is for him to sit at home and complain on twitter. It seems like a better way of handling it for him and for the game.
@@elshaddollworld3941 yeah i get that, i just think that there are enough amazing storylines to engage casual spectators they just arent being communicated well enough for anyone whos not aware of every little thing to care
The biggest short coming of modern melee was that the second doc told the story of the 5 gods again instead of telling the transitionary story of everyone else. Could have been a sick training arc with the stories not told. Mango says its the commentator's fault but truthfully its a whole community problem
People are scared to express themselves because they might end up indefinitely banned for "inciting harassment" towards an individual who may or may not have ALSO DELIBERATELY INCITED HARASSMENT MULTIPLE TIMES IN THE PAST.
I was hoping for a Mango win over Moky everytime in 2023, but he had some good points in this. Still hoping for Mango > Moky but he's spitting some facts here
"easy money" and U-tilting oranges on stage was not _nearly_ as corny as: Hbox making salt circles, chugging mango juice, eating fake pills and pulling out a party popper all in one set vs Cody ...and that was actual beef too, Hbox is just corny AF irl
I swear the reason this is a topic and the reason other top players felt last year was “a wash” was because mang0 was saying it was boring for MONTHS and it rubbed off. Could be wrong but he like willed it to be that way. Love mang and hope hungry mng is back like he says he is
It takes one whack ranked set with a teleporting fox who taunts after every unreactable running upsmash for anyone to decrepit online completely. If not purely to spite those players
I think the biggest issue in melee rn is the commentary. No offense to the current suite of popular commentators, but they just don't build the hype like they did in the five gods era. like moky said--there are so many great storylines and new players coming up to compete at the top level, but the commentators hardly ever explain that for new fans who might be watching for the first time. I think we need to let some new people on the mic to mix it up.
I feel like most people are growing up and are losing interest in the melee community. We could see something along the brawl days in the next 5 years.
cuz barwl died the minute smash4 came out... I'm really not seeing anything in common between where Melee is now and where barwl was then ...gonna venture a guess here but, you weren't active competitively during these "brawl days" that you talk about ...were you?
We have jmook docs already and this video is going to be used as a clip in another doc too. I think you are just missing the amount of time it takes for these stories to be told. Your doc will come too moky. For it too be told the right way it needs time. Not just a rise to the top and then that’s the doc
Commentary is lacking tbh.. Saw a set one time of Jmook vs Khryke, a really good Marth/Mewtwo player and game 1 was close but Khryke dropped the edgeguard and barely lost. After that, HMW was being a complete doomer and saying "I've seen this somany times" ans just started railing off topic and taking the life outta that set rather than living in the moment of it. We just simply don't have great commentary nowadays. Get some Falcon mains behind the mic lol they have a natural passion for stories xD
I think it's the percieved phoniness of being nice. If you're a genuinely nice person it's fine, but seeing ppl like leffen being nice to people just feels so wrong. Just be you, ppl need to start showing their personality more
"People keep saying the community needs me, you don't need me." Mang0, that's you. Only you have been saying that for a decade. Nobody else actually believes it besides you.
Lmao did you not see the tank in viewership when he didn’t go to tournaments? Do you know how many mouths he feeds with his opinions, including Moky in this exact video? Melee is never going to die as a game but they still really need Mango if they want to make any money, instead of making their own content or having their own rivalries
@@robertgray7344 Regardless of whether or not that's true, it doesn't excuse the obvious hypocrisy. Mang0 can't go a month without saying/tweeting grandiose shit about how hopeless the game is without him, then in this video he's acting like it's a silly narrative and he doesn't know where it came from. It's an unimpressive political tactic.
I was around during the 5 gods era and as a player and fan it was just like moky described. Really exciting seeing who could possible scalp one of them. Armada + Mang was the best rivalry to live through. Opposite characters, playstyles, hell lifestyles, but both incredibly fucking sick and pushing the boundaries of what is possible in the game.
Then hearing Moky get all hype about the current storylines, explaining them gave me shivers.
Man Moky, I know you're a top player rn but damn maybe you should hop on commentary every now and then and share your excitement over the current stories of Aklo, you, Jmook etc. You've convinced me and gotten me invested just with the infectious enthusiasm and personal view of each player's situation.
Nah the 5 gods era was trash
What was so bad about Armada’s lifestyle? Wasn’t around back then
oh my god i love moky (clips)
im in love wit mokey
Zain and cody playing all the time feels like they are robbing us from their rivalry.
When mang0 or armada was playing hbox when they were peak, it felt like we were witnessing their rivalry right before our eyes.
Now it feels like we get to see small instances of their rivalry.
It also might be that it was a little harder to get practice with other good players back then
I think that’s the part that online ruined. Online has pushed players like Cody and Zain farther than ever and makes the game 100x more accessible, but it somewhat ruins the rivalry
I think you can see its effect with Leffen, a lot of people get hype when Leffen plays friendlies in NA because it’s less accessible for him
you dont have to watch their streams all day lol
On the flip side, as someone who doesn’t watch them play on stream all the time, seeing how insanely high level their play has become when they play in tournament is awesome. Personally I hope they keep pushing each other. When I watch them play it feels like a showcase of what the best players can do, and it’s super hype.
You know what the solution to this is? Close Twitch and stop watching their streams all day. I literally do not ever open Twitch except when a tournament is happening and every time I see Zain vs. Cody, it is consistently the best and most entertaining Melee that exists.
I miss 2015 melee so much man I want villain leffen back
I think it’s tough when the biggest “characters” in melee are all kinda taking the year off. Mango, Leffen, Hbox, and Plup are some of the most well known people in the game and they all seemed to give less than their all for one reason or another.
It’d be like a year in the NBA where Lebron, Curry, Giannis, and Westbrook all decided to phone it in. It would take announcers and spectators a while to find their footing and latch onto some new storylines.
I think a lot of melee fans primarily care about 2 or 3 players that they’re all in on. And unless one of your 2 or 3 was Cody or Zain it was probably a year where you had to find some new players to root for. That’s great for building hype in 2024 and beyond but 2033 will be the growing pains.
New players will always come to take their place. Jmook and slug came out of nowhere as exciting new players. We'll also get new story lines from the old guard fighting the new guard from guys like S2J taking the title of "King of New York" from Aklo.
This is what irritated me the most.
Mango did everything he could to devalue every tournament all year and then has the gall to release a video wondering what happened.
I was really stoked about the Mango rivalry with Zain because Mango is my favorite player and I really was amazed by the meta they were pushing with their respective characters. I like watching Cody and Zaine play a lot too for similar reasons, but i'm definitely biased as I just get hyped about Mango's involvement. However, I do think the scene would probably benefit from them not showing their playing so much, it just takes a little bit of the uncertainty and excitement from it compared to times when star rivals weren't playing as much unless it was in a GF for a big tournament. There are pros to it though, getting see super high level develop all the time. Maybe it will lead to advancements in the meta around fox and marth happening more quickly, which is undeniably rad for those of us really invested in that aspect of competitive melee. Also, I think it would be super hype if Cody picked up Falco as a fulltime secondary.
Old melee was like DBZ
new melee is like a reality dating show
Maher being a Young Sheldon fan is the funniest thing I've ever heard. I used to get smacked around by that guy when we both still lived in New Brunswick.
27:34 this made me a lifetime moky fan. I'm a fan of like 3 ppl on earth
wash your bedsheets boys
We NEED WWE style promos pre-set and pre-top 8 at tourneys. There is plenty of down time while waiting for top 8 and sets to begin (like handwarmers). During that time, that is the perfect time to recap the current story at hand and set up the importance of the match about to play out. Setting the story out for someone who hasn't been keeping up can make even someone who's never watched melee invested in match at hand.
I really like this video. Good takes with lots of passion.
Commentators like Scar, toph, HMW, vish etc are so iconic because they used to be top players. If we had current top players with commentary skills that would be sick.
That’s another reason why commentary at invitationals are so awesome and funny because they’re commentated by current top players.
(Listen to the commentary at holiday bash if you want to see what I’m talking about. That was the funniest commentary)
I think losing Scar as a consistent commentator is really hurting in this area. He definitely was a big driver to the 5 gods era's storyline. The commentators do discuss storylines, but none of them package them or hype them up as much he did. It really felt like you were watching history when you would hear him.
Agree. People don’t talk about that enough. Scar was such an incredible commentator, and nobody has filled his shoes since he left
moky spitting as usual. I really, really liked his point about people framing things within the year and never "living in the moment" as a result, so to speak. Stories do thrive on context (the past) and uncertainty moving forward (the future), but I still agree with him. Something I gained from listening to this is that IMO the stories in Melee rn are more so told and re-told than developed like a typical story. Sure, commentators talk about Jmook "coming out of nowhere" but it's been that for a long time now. Gotta move the story forward; he was there, now he's here. Where's here?
Great ramble, really enjoyed listening.
When mango and Zain were having their #1 and #2 rivalry they were chummy playing friendlies all the time too. Mango just disinterested in what he’s not involved in
Moky was speaking absolute facts here. Jmooks run at Genesis 8 was straight up one of the best ever hypest runs in melee to watch ever. And at the time most were saying it as a fluke. Then Jmook proceeded to literally not miss a single top 8 and beat zain multiple times for all of 2022. Then 2023 he won a super major and then won collision after making a losers run which cody and zain both hadn't done yet he was the first new player to prove they could win from losers. Then he went into his big slump that he's still in now. And with aklo he just has always been good as well since he started attending majors after covid and he had a little slump first half of 2024 but now the last few tourneys he really looks like he's competing with moky for that second best fox spot where he can beat everyone except Zain Mango and Cody is also tough. Even the cody and zain storyline is interesting with amsa and mango disrupting things to where they have only played twice this year like idk all it is to this day is the players and commentators need to realize that there are more interesting storylines than ever and they gotta convey that. Bro before Moky and Cody broke out it was literally just like Leffen was the only good fox main than significant gap and then SFAT. Dfox crush and ice all had good runs here and there but they all stopped playing by 2018.
From an EU perspective on Armada-Hbox matchup. You are staying up on a Sunday untill 2-3am. You manage to get through the winners finals of Armada-Hbox, and if anyone of them lose and get back to the finals. You might be in for 2 set bo5 with stalling at 3am having work the next day.
I thought Moky already killed the guy who ran this channel
Melee would 10000% be so much more hype if top players secluded themselves to practice in their own circles, and then came together for the Big Game.
Who's gonna win? What have they been cooking? Cody got beat pretty bad last time, will his counterplay pay off? There would be so much more speculation, conversations to be had between majors.
Now it's just, "well will cody or zain be better today? Idk."
Moky's point about viewing Melee "within a year" is legit as fuck
42:20
Stopped watching the second he said he doesn't wash his bedsheets
I need toxic leffen to come back sadge
I don't think there's necessarily a problem with mang0 playing doc lee at tournaments. If mang0 went Doc in grands and threw, that might be a problem. But watching his Marth against S2J is better than watching him beat S2J for the 40th time with his mains. Random secondaries can add to storylines and legacies, and just make for cool content in general. Casual fans love character variety.
If mang0 feels the year is a wash, it's better for him to show up and make content, than it is for him to sit at home and complain on twitter. It seems like a better way of handling it for him and for the game.
Moky never washes his hat LOL
1:58 you should wash your ball caps but like be careful cuz some washers/dryers can fuck up your hats.
Oops! Moky is now officially my favorite player.
MOKY CLIPS YEAHHHH
Melee needs an Attitude Era
17:11
I think Moky doesn't know what the words masses means lol
Not washing your hats is one thing, BEDSHEETS?????
I completley agree with moky here, ive been very in touch with the community and see storys everywhere, they just arent being conveyed properly.
mang0 is talking about the non hardcore fans and he is right for them unless the storyline is good and wel communicated they dont care
@@elshaddollworld3941 yeah i get that, i just think that there are enough amazing storylines to engage casual spectators they just arent being communicated well enough for anyone whos not aware of every little thing to care
they are alright
Melee just has a marketing problem
4:51 i only care about plup :)
I agree with moky. Genesis 2 grands was siiiick. Armada and mang0 were so much better than everyone else.
Please post more long vids like this on this channel!
The biggest short coming of modern melee was that the second doc told the story of the 5 gods again instead of telling the transitionary story of everyone else. Could have been a sick training arc with the stories not told. Mango says its the commentator's fault but truthfully its a whole community problem
Doc publisher is basically same role as commentator. If you're on the mic, you have a responsibility to use that power for good
Biggest short coming of melee is that I have to pay for the 2nd doc so I never saw it and I was a 2013 doc kid.
Of course people wash their hats bajaha some people are active
Ultimate is doing a good job of telling storylines with Tweek Talks and Lights Out. Melee needs that
All this discussion is so tedious. Trying to optimize the perfect lukewarm take
Zain needs to put out more skits and content, Aklo too they gotta put in the content
People are scared to express themselves because they might end up indefinitely banned for "inciting harassment" towards an individual who may or may not have ALSO DELIBERATELY INCITED HARASSMENT MULTIPLE TIMES IN THE PAST.
I was hoping for a Mango win over Moky everytime in 2023, but he had some good points in this. Still hoping for Mango > Moky but he's spitting some facts here
Bizzaro Flame did pretty well with faked beef, but I think it was because it was so on the nose cringe that it worked
"easy money" and U-tilting oranges on stage was not _nearly_ as corny as:
Hbox making salt circles, chugging mango juice, eating fake pills and pulling out a party popper all in one set vs Cody ...and that was actual beef too, Hbox is just corny AF irl
Moky (clips) my beloved ❤
I swear the reason this is a topic and the reason other top players felt last year was “a wash” was because mang0 was saying it was boring for MONTHS and it rubbed off. Could be wrong but he like willed it to be that way. Love mang and hope hungry mng is back like he says he is
It takes one whack ranked set with a teleporting fox who taunts after every unreactable running upsmash for anyone to decrepit online completely. If not purely to spite those players
I think the biggest issue in melee rn is the commentary. No offense to the current suite of popular commentators, but they just don't build the hype like they did in the five gods era. like moky said--there are so many great storylines and new players coming up to compete at the top level, but the commentators hardly ever explain that for new fans who might be watching for the first time. I think we need to let some new people on the mic to mix it up.
I feel like most people are growing up and are losing interest in the melee community. We could see something along the brawl days in the next 5 years.
"We could see something along the brawl days in the next 5 years." I'm not sure what you mean by that
cuz barwl died the minute smash4 came out... I'm really not seeing anything in common between where Melee is now and where barwl was then
...gonna venture a guess here but, you weren't active competitively during these "brawl days" that you talk about ...were you?
We have jmook docs already and this video is going to be used as a clip in another doc too. I think you are just missing the amount of time it takes for these stories to be told. Your doc will come too moky. For it too be told the right way it needs time. Not just a rise to the top and then that’s the doc
we need the Mango/moky perspectives honestly 🔥
Moky is moving like destiny ew
Commentary is lacking tbh.. Saw a set one time of Jmook vs Khryke, a really good Marth/Mewtwo player and game 1 was close but Khryke dropped the edgeguard and barely lost. After that, HMW was being a complete doomer and saying "I've seen this somany times" ans just started railing off topic and taking the life outta that set rather than living in the moment of it. We just simply don't have great commentary nowadays. Get some Falcon mains behind the mic lol they have a natural passion for stories xD
I think it's the percieved phoniness of being nice. If you're a genuinely nice person it's fine, but seeing ppl like leffen being nice to people just feels so wrong. Just be you, ppl need to start showing their personality more
"People keep saying the community needs me, you don't need me."
Mang0, that's you. Only you have been saying that for a decade. Nobody else actually believes it besides you.
Lmao did you not see the tank in viewership when he didn’t go to tournaments? Do you know how many mouths he feeds with his opinions, including Moky in this exact video?
Melee is never going to die as a game but they still really need Mango if they want to make any money, instead of making their own content or having their own rivalries
@@robertgray7344 Regardless of whether or not that's true, it doesn't excuse the obvious hypocrisy. Mang0 can't go a month without saying/tweeting grandiose shit about how hopeless the game is without him, then in this video he's acting like it's a silly narrative and he doesn't know where it came from. It's an unimpressive political tactic.
oh my god i love moky (clips)
oh my god i love moky (clips)
oh my god i love moky (clips)
oh my god i love moky (clips)
oh my god i love moky (clips)