We need rishi's jungle jam to become a side event. Although its a perfect ruleset it may be controversial so having it start out as a side event will help it inevitablly become the standard ruleset as it should be
nothing perfect about killing yourr apponent taking the stars waiting out enemyt invincibility and having invincibility advantage to snowball your lead
Well a better idea is : wobbling is enabled if only the player uses a more complex variation of it, that is di dependent. As such you could defend yourself, and the wobbler would need more effort than just chaining a grab and some ez inputs
@@davidbass3178 setting that time limit is tough because the number is arbitrary. Not saying I'm in favour of items, but their advantage is it gives the player being stalled a tool which they actively use rather than invoking an arbitrary number.
... Dammit, I was hoping for a serious video just so I could hear about more drama, but the presentation would make such a good troll I'm just gonna like the video anyway. Won't subscribe though definitely won't comment
I am genuinely confused about Rishi's Jungle Jam because I feel like it is a meme, but I would totally be down if this became a basis for a new ruleset
@@twoloavesofbread I feel thus ruleset is a lot more fun and three sticks is a nice change since it means there's no point to stall if your in the lead. In addition the Starman is so random and jank that it easily breaks stalling as even if you don't just grab ledge you can just spam moves and kick them ofg
Video essays like these are the pride of the Smash community, as it lays out all arguments clearly and concisely without coming off as condescending. Thank you, Rishi. I hope to see Rishi's Jungle Jam become the new Melee standard
I don't know. I think it would make an interesting side event, but my biggest problem is that there is only one stage. Personally, that would make it less fun to watch for long periods of time
@@griffinkimball2454 All tennis matches are played on the same court layout. All basketball games are played on the same court layout. All hockey games, soccer games, baseball... bowling....lacross......cricket.....etc...etc.
@@christheophilus7154 I can't say for sure if it does now, but I think he's referring to the insanely aggressive playstyle early seasons were infamous for
SIY yeah seasons 1 and 2 of sfv were very focused on aggression. however, the game still primarily played on the ground and prioritized grounded fundamentals. if you managed to get your hit, you could definitely carry it all the way to a win off 50/50s but you still needed to get that hit. a lot of the top tiers in sfiv would basically bypass neutral and “footsies” all together. akuma would just jump and throw fireballs and there wasn’t much characters could do, yun would just divekick all game and it was hard to counter because a neutral jump from yun was a mixup. many characters could just say “fuck neutral” and do a risky approach option and not have to worry because they could just fadc if their shit got blocked. i think sfiv is leagues better than sfv but the way people try to frame it as the pinnacle of footsies isn’t 100% true
No joke, this is actually one of the best ruleset ideas I’ve ever. Rishi is a hidden genius and Rishi’s Jungle Jam should be played at Melee Friendlies, maybe even at actual tournaments if it gains enough traction.
Except it isn't. Gettings items only benefits the lucky. In mid combo, a star can literally spawn on your opponent and they kill you because of RNG. This is a joke of a suggestion. Throw away the CRT's. Pop on a modded melee with fixed stages. Ban wobbling. Ledge grab limit. That would literally fix all Major issues with Melee. The one thing people have to do is get used to a delay in movement. (which sucks)
NaJk93 there’s a ton of luck/probability based shit in smash, misfires, mr. game and watch 9s, stitchfaces, the whole lot. The whole point is to literally make that happen as little as possible
@@ernestocuengil1366 imagine you pour your heart and soul into a game and then somebody who doesnt really care about the game comes along and kicks your ass
@@citrusblast4372 then you clearly aren't very good at the game, this is why tournaments are bo3 or even bo5 so worse players can't just "get lucky" and beat a better player
@@citrusblast4372 I don't know, he might have meant exactly what you said, or he might have been making a joke or an exaggeration. Even if he did mean that, I was just arguing against the possibility of it happening.
I think the saddest part about this video is that it took a legitimized player (with tournament performance) for this video to be paid attention to. Many older players, especially those of us from the SmashBoards 2004 days, have felt this way for a long time, even putting it into words on occasion, but no one listened because for some reason, theorycrafters aren't "legit" unless they attend tournaments and place high. Finally, Rishi addressed this and put the work into making this video. Most of this needed to be said (and was said) 10 years ago.
funny that you mention it. My brother was in competitive Smash back in 09' and he got mega shamed for suggesting practicing against cpus to work on comboes - i.e. punish game. Now pretty much everyone does it. Even before 20XX came around people were practicing punish game on CPUs. But not that long ago. My brother hasn't touched any Smash since 2010 now that I think about it smh
@Gianluca Tartaro Why? This isn't a troll. It's a legitimate ruleset. And it sounds super fun, balanced and spectacular. I would come back to competitive Melee if this were the ruleset.
Tbh the best way is to create a side event e.g. vanilla compatible jungle jam or even an agreed upon modded version. and see if and how it's integrated into the main game as it gains popularity
@@sptflcrw8583 no, you are wrong, no one here is a troll, especially not the guy you're replying to. Everyone here is completely serious, both rishi and the commenters.
When you started the Rishi's Jungle Jam part I laughed at the initial listing of elements, thinking it was a joke. But then it all made so much sense, and it should be the standard for sure.
@@StreamWatcher-kj7cb the starman is a solution to camping, but still mixes like what, 8 seconds of invincibility randomly into a game. Imagine your playing work no degeneracy and the enemy gets the starman. Now your forced to run away. Cool, but not cool.
lmao su much people saying it should be standard smh.. those plats would be so much worse for combos and good edguards, etc, come on how easy is to convince you people
Imagine this. If a player is being wobbled the game sensed this and spawns a star directly on top of the player in question, breaking them free and giving them what is basically free damage
What if instead of a “star man” we put something to recover health on either low or Very low? My issue with Starman (which you did address) is that it can still randomly become an intrusion in the game. -Mess up a combo -benefit one player over another if both players are near center stage etc. Clearly there’s also a risk-reward involved with going for the star man, but the reward is REALLY HIGH, since there’s no where to run away to thanks to how great the stage is for isolation. If the purpose of Star Man is to mitigate camping, then allowing the player being camped to recover health during that time from the stage, could be a better solution. That way, it’s less of a reward for players who are engaging, but may have better means to get to the item from center stage ie. higher movement speed like fox/falcon, moves with more hit stun or higher jumps like Falco). -- I do theorize that having one stage in a platform based fighter will become a very polarizing trait for the cast. However, the fact that we’ve eliminated so many other random elements with this ruleset might actually make up for that. lol
I think healing field in ultimate may work really well since it requires you to stay within the field to gain health, forcing the opponent to approach to try to push you out of the field.
@@mitrimind1027 that's a good idea. I don't think this ruleset works for Ultimate though. We would have to mod in that item for Melee. Ultimate doesn't have an issue with ledge stalling due to the mechanics.
It's an element that for sure would work best in a catastrophically high-risk high reward scenario, tho the game doesn't allow us to tweak the ruleset in that manner sadly. But I'm so happy to see an item legalized at all that I'm down for it tbh.
@@brafy2981 yep. You are right. However, only a few characters can stall with invulnerability, so the logs and clap traps actually help to stop some of that camping. Technically, characters could ledge camp right now lol but it's not a huge part of the meta except for Puff, so I still think that just minimalizing the reward for camping is ok, as opposed to eliminating the threat. But of course, I'm open to any other suggestions. I just think that a starman presents other potential issues.
I think the skill we value the most in Smash is: someone's ability to quickly adapt and problem solve on the fly given their accumulated game / match up knowledge at that point in the metagame.
why quickly / on the fly? If Leffen comes in against Hbox and has a stronger gameplan and wins 3 games but Hbox was adapting and making each game closer, by this metric, Hbox has demonstrated superiority by the metric you suggest
@@rishi360 I said based on accumulated game and match up knowledge. Leffen was clearly adapting to Hbox's spacing even if his gameplan stayed the same and what I said doesn't discount his gameplan
@@GimR my point is you can win a set without making any adaptations. We aren't measuring amount of adaptation per game, so I don't think you could say it's the most valued skill. What you're getting at, I think, is the "game/MU knowledge" part that we're measuring.
Rishi Your referencing adaptation during a set rather than general adaptation over the life of the game, which seems to be GimR’s idea of adaptation. Base skills: Taking less damage than your opponent, Giving more damage than your opponent, maintaining control of the stage and other methods of limiting your opponent’s options, reacting to a situation in time to either avoid damage, give damage, take a stock, or grab more stage control to continue limiting your opponent’s options- okay see this is where my problem is, this list could probably go on forever. When you play smash for a while, you can see what is or isn’t degenerate gameplay intuitively, but defining what that means overall is another story, and the list of skills that can make someone a strong player is also quite extensive and grows every tournament as the meta is always changing at these early stages.
30 chosen by TO stages with players on all random with hazards and items off, test the players on how much they know the whole game and counterplay. *true test of skill*
You bring up some incredibly great points! Your comedic ruleset is quite hilariously good at getting them across as well. We need more solidly defined skill values as a community.
The problem with that, and why there is always such controversy on proposed bans, is that it's very unlikely for everyone to unanimously agree on what skills are valued and what aren't
@@corronchilejano you'd struggle to hit any balls flying at your body if the racket handle was 10ft long. the pro strat at that point would be for your opponent to hit all their balls toward your body.
@@Officialencode I mean sure, but have you handled a tennis racket for any sort of time? A 10 foot one would weigh, being optimistic, about 8 times as much as a normal one, for a woopin' 25 kilos.
Players have been creating their own ways to plays Smash since before I started playing Melee around 2005. One of the things that got me into Melee was an article in Nintendo Power talking about how they had started playing their own modified rules. One of them was called King of the Hill set in Jungle Japes, last person on the rock when the timer ran out won.
So basically your solution is to just increase the max timer, and add Kongo Jungle to the list of legal stages? Thats pretty simple, but it also makes sense. The one thing I dislike is the Star because it has a chance to spawn near or on the rock too and then give the campers an even better advantage. They could also just only focus on ways to get the star and then start camping which makes it easier for them.
I've always felt that competitive Smash should place greater value in the skills of managing and mitigating chaos. It's the only fighting game that really even enables the concept to be explored. Also, those rules sound pretty dope.
I know it's just the normal Kongo Jungle soundtrack, but there's something beautiful about the fact it starts to sound bassboosted when Rishi talks about enabling starman at 13:44.
I hate these videos because they have just enough irony that people who take everything serious at face value will conclude that absolutely nothing in this video is real or a valid argument, damn you rishi
@@AlexRoseGames so what's the message of the video? Changing the rules at this point is completely silly, and we just need to deal with any shit ones? Because that's what i got from it.
What to take away from this video: No: Rishi’s Jungle Jan is the absolute perfect rule set and nothing else can be better. Yes: Think of some new rulesets yourself, be creative, and experiment.
One problem I see is that people might not like the fact that only 1 stage is available. Being stuck to only 1 stage can kinda feel bad and could also be boring for spectators as well
Wow. That was extremely concise and well thought out. I absolutely love your idea for a rishi jungle jam. What other stages could be made into interesting "competitive" formats?! This is the type of revival that melee needs it would be hilarious to see this at tournaments. Also, lots of games have *some* randomness. Look at dota 2, filled with randomness. It's about how that randomness is used in the format. Great video
Hands down the best part of this is the soul shattering confusion due to the closing 4 minutes of the video. I don't think I will ever know peace again until I know whether it's a meme or not, and getting that answer seems about as likely as god coming down from the heavens to compete in a melee tournament with the Rishi's Jungle Jam Ruleset.
I'm probably the only person to disagree with Rishi's Jungle Jam, regarding the comments at least. First, I'd like to mention on how you didn't mention the viability of characters, and why counterpicks are a thing in the first place. The reason we have counterpicks is so one character or person gets punished for losing by playing on an unfavorable stage. This could also lead to things like banning stages where their character preform well, etc. Now, why I don't like it. Kongo Jungle has an uneven stage layout, which you can get used to, but some characters don't preform well on this stage at all. The reason why even stages are because every character can do something, they have potential on every stage. Now, back to counterpicks, some characters have better stages than others. But, Kongo Jungle can make characters better, which obviously is a good thing, which is one of the reasons why I don't hate this ruleset, just don't prefer it. Now, onto something a little controversial, which is the look of a game. People watch Melee because it looks fast and impressive, and it takes a lot of time and skill to make it seem that way. But, this ruleset doesn't look all that entertaining to a viewer stand point. "hm yes i can't wait for this samus to camp the middle platform and wait for a starman" Does that sound entertaining to you? Overall, I don't hate this ruleset at all, I might even play it one time and maybe my opinion will change, but as it stands, it's an eh.
This is a lot like how the Starcraft esports community (especially in the old BW days when there weren't any patches coming anymore) would carefully craft the game's competitive maps for faction balance. If the developers were willing, there's a lot they could do. As is, I don't know how good the custom map features are, but maybe something similar could be worked out for Ultimate.
Great video! I like how it's not only an analysis of smash, but competitive games in general. I'd love to see this format in competition, and also would love to see more of these alternative formats!
For ultimate, I've found that going hazards off Green Greens with the killer eye on low is a good solution to camping. It causes players to want to prioritize stage control and placing the eye in the trajectory of where the opponent is forces them to move, but one eye cant cover the whole stage, just an option. And you'll only get more than one eye if your opponent doesn't to stop camping.
It leaves the person trying to get a lead off of the camper too open to be worth it though. Lucas can PK Freeze someone to death from most of the stage positions easily if that were the case, not to mention shadowball, charge shot, Frizz, sun salutation, Nakita, key, canonball, Farrore's wind, Celestial flame, Flare blitz and Quickdraw all can punish it on reaction from a camping position. Those and you can accidentally pick it up instead of attacking if one falls in front of you right before you start an attack unlike crates and capsules in Melee you do a pickup animation and don't attack in Ultimate.
@@yellowlemonPenguin so what do you want, the ability to cancel the animation? because that would be broken as fuck. it'd just completely force people to approach. remember smash 4 cloud and how he could just force you to approach with limit? it'd be like that but even worse.
Hero shouldn't be banned. Sure top decking a funny move is possible but unlike Luigi's missfire or Game and Watch's 9, or Peach's bomb, Hero runs the risk of instantly losing his stock with EVERY top deck. Using the right spell requires spacing, reaction time, reading it off the menu, and often aim.
Definitely gonna try this with some friends, but I honestly can't tell if this is a meme video or not because you make more good points than bad. Pretty sure this is in between serious and not serious.
it may be to take what the melee community seems to value and propose something that they inherently may not like, but there is no logical argument against
This is a horrible idea, the close blast zones prevent off stage stalling, but just put a ledge stall limit, don’t include invincibility. This is like banning wobbling and then adding wobbling, there is no counter play once someone gets it, hell I could beat Mango with it. Also, in the shine 2019 jungle jam tourney, Plup stayed off stage and was able to consistently steal the star out of other’s boxes or barrels. This means that the players are able to turn stalling into an even more strong strategy.
I just watched a 15 minute video of someone trying to sell me on using Kongo Jungle as the only legal stage in Melee. ...And yet, I'm less opposed to the idea than I expected. Don't know how you managed that.
I actually completely agree with running Melee with Rishi's Jungle Jam ruleset. We could start by running local tournaments with both the standard and Rishi's Jungle Jam rulesets, then we could move up to having Rishi's Jungle Jam as a side event at larger tournaments, before eventually phasing Rishi's Jungle Jam in as the main form of Melee at tournaments that don't run Melee as a main stage event, before finally phasing it in as the main form of Melee in all tournaments.
Great video! Saw the 15 min timestamp on a video about rules, and expected to be bored, but this is really well done! Kinda wished you had proposed a serious ruleset at the end though.
During high school I ran an alternate game mode in the Looser's/Underdog bracket called "Actually having fun." You had 50 stock, Super Sudden Death Melee, and every single bomb item plus heart container was enabled at VERY HIGH. Oh my god it was the dumbest shit but seriously, it was actually fun in a competitive setting. It's also called Bomberman mode because you can't directly attack a player unless you are attacking a bomb specifically to catch an opponent off guard.
I've always been frustrated with this game's competitive rulesets, and I never knew why. Until this video. Turns out, my valued skills have always been at odds with the valued skills of the competitive community. My biggest complaint is how competitive players value a glitch, aka wavedashing. (I have other complaints but they're irrelevant) Now I'm able to understand and articulate exactly why: I value mechanics being intuitive more than I value them allowing movement options, which is the opposite of most competitive players. I also learned what the difference between constructive and deconstructive rulesets are, and after a bit of introspection, I've realized why I despise deconstructive rulesets: I've always viewed game developers as legitimate authorities, but gaming communities as merely "arbitrary scrublords" who ban things only if it doesn't help them win. This video helped me realize...the game developers are *just as arbitrary as the players*, and probably the main reason I never noticed that is because I never played against a developer! Tl;dr: Rishi helps longtime casul understand how rules work, and to better understand some of his own mental hang-ups
I thought the starman thing was insane at first, but now I feel convinced that it's a clever, natural solution to the problems this video's trying to address.
Something to note, is that fighting games like Street Fighter, basically play on Default rules bc it's a "Tournament Fighter" Smash is a Party Brawler with a TON of 'wacky' insane things like Items, Crazy stages with hazards, hell half of the glitches are a product of it being a platform fighter. This is part of why it's so hard to just make a Rule Set. But we've basically leveled it down and removed as much RNG as we can which increases the chances of independent skill dictating the wins. But as you mentioned, plenty of the rules and things we do are up to interpretation which can cause a lot of problems.
DM Wanderer I wrote out a paragraph replying but deleted it as I felt I came off wrong. Not only do I think he’s serious I also think it’s a solid idea.
Barrels almost always roll on that stage, creating spontaneous hitboxes. They also randomly explode when broken. Crates give Donkey Kong a certain advantage as he moves fastest while carrying heavy objects and is the only one who can jump while holding them. They also randomly explode when broken.
Meme or not this brings up a discussion and evolution that will surely continue as esports progresses: Do valued skills matter most? These are video games, and they already have a wide diversity of things in them, almost always much more wide than sports. This means they are more likely to have diverse win conditions and skills. So should we just choose the win conditions and valued skills we care most about right away, or leave it as a matter of measuring who is best at the game on the current patch, as is? I think for video games, reactivity is going to be the standard. Patches are a main stay now and in a way they are reactive themselves. In general, the people are going to decide the way they want the game to be played, and not many esports tournaments are going to intentionally reward finding cheese/off-meta playstyles.
This actually reflects something I read some time ago about like, a game dev talking about nerfs and buffs and how creative buffs feel waaaay better than a plain nerf and keep the game from getting stale
Lol this will never happen. The real way to make melee great again is to fix the ledge so that it cant be abused, and ban puff. Also u ever try to ledgedash on that stage? It moves and could easily kill a match Oh and freeze stadium
I am intruigued about watching a tournament with your proposed ruleset. Thanks for your orderly presentation of rational arguments. Great work overall!
I am thinking what would be better would be Franklin Badge/Mr. Saturn/Metal Box/Flipper/Food at Medium rate. Franklin Badge and Food would discourage too much projectile camping. Mr. Saturn would destroy shields. Flipper would discourage edgegrab exploitation. And as for Metal Box? Temporary knockback reduction to disrupt combos.
We need rishi's jungle jam to become a side event. Although its a perfect ruleset it may be controversial so having it start out as a side event will help it inevitablly become the standard ruleset as it should be
I would love to see more experimental side events like this, especially in Ultimate.
nothing perfect about killing yourr apponent taking the stars waiting out enemyt invincibility and having invincibility advantage to snowball your lead
The perfect was probably a joke, but the star snowballing your lead is part of the game. You should be fighting for stage control
Theres so many possibilities for side events in this game. Jet packs off the start with spirits would be funny.
A Stale Meme A side event at both shine and SPC, it’s growing
If Rishi's Jungle Jam was the standard, I'd play Melee again
I'd love to see it at the next summit in some fashion
thank you very cool
Pin this comment!! 😆
*Nair loops has been added to melee*
Esam approves fellas, let's make it happen
"... Also, wobbling is banned. Thanks for watching!" looool
Well a better idea is : wobbling is enabled if only the player uses a more complex variation of it, that is di dependent.
As such you could defend yourself, and the wobbler would need more effort than just chaining a grab and some ez inputs
@@akasakasvault7597 there is no complex variation of wobbling. it's just wobbling. handoffs and other grab-based icies combos arent wobbling.
@@lillieofthevlly thats why I call it variation : different, but following the same idea of an infinite
@@akasakasvault7597 You can do grab combos with ice climbers other than wobbling, those arent banned
@@lorenzomcbo7229 gran?
Rishi's jungle jam needs to be a side event at next summit
exactly what I was thinking
Make it so popular that it becomes a normal thing
Its a side event for Kongo Saga
I'd watch it
Kekela Faster!
I remember when m2k suggested pokeballs on very low as a solution to camping
Lol thats wack
There should just be a time limit for not interacting with the other player before you have to auto stock yourself.
I think minimal items is actually a great idea
@@davidbass3178 setting that time limit is tough because the number is arbitrary. Not saying I'm in favour of items, but their advantage is it gives the player being stalled a tool which they actively use rather than invoking an arbitrary number.
Jason's logic tends to be silly.
Your exponentially increasing love affair with DK will either kill Melee or transcend it into the next dimension.
EvilApple567 dk only all items ice climber’s iceberg/mountain stage
Smash 28XX: DK and only DK is the sole character allowed, and fully charged punch is the only move allowed
Kongunism has risen, and will stop for no man
This aged well ❤ dk is everywhere now
They had us in the first half I'm not gonna lie
I'm not gonna lie
@@SheeshFr ;)
@@bustystussy3687 ;0
... Dammit, I was hoping for a serious video just so I could hear about more drama, but the presentation would make such a good troll I'm just gonna like the video anyway. Won't subscribe though definitely won't comment
Wait... He's trolling? Rishi's jungle jam legitimately looks like a solid idea lol
I am genuinely confused about Rishi's Jungle Jam because I feel like it is a meme, but I would totally be down if this became a basis for a new ruleset
Adam Skvorak it's only seemingly a meme because of how different this ruleset is in comparison to the meta
It feels like a meme because it's Donkey Kong. You're down anyway because it's a better ruleset than any current Smash ones.
@@twoloavesofbread I feel thus ruleset is a lot more fun and three sticks is a nice change since it means there's no point to stall if your in the lead. In addition the Starman is so random and jank that it easily breaks stalling as even if you don't just grab ledge you can just spam moves and kick them ofg
Video essays like these are the pride of the Smash community, as it lays out all arguments clearly and concisely without coming off as condescending. Thank you, Rishi. I hope to see Rishi's Jungle Jam become the new Melee standard
I don't know. I think it would make an interesting side event, but my biggest problem is that there is only one stage. Personally, that would make it less fun to watch for long periods of time
Side event only please.
keenfrizzle This should be top comment
@@griffinkimball2454 All tennis matches are played on the same court layout. All basketball games are played on the same court layout. All hockey games, soccer games, baseball... bowling....lacross......cricket.....etc...etc.
@@WooperTrooper4 And I don't really enjoy watching Basketball, Tennis, Soccer, baseball, or really any other sport.
"Street Fighter values footsies" *shows SFV*
... Hey wait a minute.
Chips Light sfv values footsies just as much as sf4 if not more.
@@christheophilus7154 I can't say for sure if it does now, but I think he's referring to the insanely aggressive playstyle early seasons were infamous for
SIY yeah seasons 1 and 2 of sfv were very focused on aggression. however, the game still primarily played on the ground and prioritized grounded fundamentals. if you managed to get your hit, you could definitely carry it all the way to a win off 50/50s but you still needed to get that hit.
a lot of the top tiers in sfiv would basically bypass neutral and “footsies” all together. akuma would just jump and throw fireballs and there wasn’t much characters could do, yun would just divekick all game and it was hard to counter because a neutral jump from yun was a mixup. many characters could just say “fuck neutral” and do a risky approach option and not have to worry because they could just fadc if their shit got blocked.
i think sfiv is leagues better than sfv but the way people try to frame it as the pinnacle of footsies isn’t 100% true
No joke, this is actually one of the best ruleset ideas I’ve ever. Rishi is a hidden genius and Rishi’s Jungle Jam should be played at Melee Friendlies, maybe even at actual tournaments if it gains enough traction.
Except it isn't.
Gettings items only benefits the lucky.
In mid combo, a star can literally spawn on your opponent and they kill you because of RNG.
This is a joke of a suggestion.
Throw away the CRT's.
Pop on a modded melee with fixed stages.
Ban wobbling.
Ledge grab limit.
That would literally fix all Major issues with Melee.
The one thing people have to do is get used to a delay in movement. (which sucks)
Or keep the CRT's.
If people can band together to bring CRT's. People could band together to bring copies of the fixed melee on a disc.
NaJk93 well you’re fun to be with at a party arent you
NaJk93 there’s a ton of luck/probability based shit in smash, misfires, mr. game and watch 9s, stitchfaces, the whole lot. The whole point is to literally make that happen as little as possible
I actually agree with NaJK94 the whole point is to be as competitive as possible
time to find out if this is a serious video or a DK with four shines kinda video, I'm excited
both
he wants us to mod the hell out of the game
What is DK with four shines? I couldn't find anything looking it up on TH-cam.
@@HighDeafRadio Watch Rishi's (I think) last video, called "Can DK win a major" or some such
@@The_SOB_II I see that video on my sidebar but I'm too intimidated to click it.
"If you have difficulty winning in your main game against players who use it as a side hustle" dude why is nobody talking about this? So good.
What did he mean by that? I didn't understand it lol
@@ernestocuengil1366 imagine you pour your heart and soul into a game and then somebody who doesnt really care about the game comes along and kicks your ass
@@citrusblast4372 then you clearly aren't very good at the game, this is why tournaments are bo3 or even bo5 so worse players can't just "get lucky" and beat a better player
@@Rislear then why dont you clarify what he meant
@@citrusblast4372 I don't know, he might have meant exactly what you said, or he might have been making a joke or an exaggeration. Even if he did mean that, I was just arguing against the possibility of it happening.
“Haha, that’s a funny joke ruleset, can’t wait to see the real thi... oh shoot”
Joke or not, let's enforce this. The new era of Kongo Jungle is finally here.
I think the saddest part about this video is that it took a legitimized player (with tournament performance) for this video to be paid attention to. Many older players, especially those of us from the SmashBoards 2004 days, have felt this way for a long time, even putting it into words on occasion, but no one listened because for some reason, theorycrafters aren't "legit" unless they attend tournaments and place high. Finally, Rishi addressed this and put the work into making this video. Most of this needed to be said (and was said) 10 years ago.
funny that you mention it. My brother was in competitive Smash back in 09' and he got mega shamed for suggesting practicing against cpus to work on comboes - i.e. punish game. Now pretty much everyone does it. Even before 20XX came around people were practicing punish game on CPUs. But not that long ago. My brother hasn't touched any Smash since 2010 now that I think about it smh
@Gianluca Tartaro Why? This isn't a troll. It's a legitimate ruleset. And it sounds super fun, balanced and spectacular. I would come back to competitive Melee if this were the ruleset.
Tbh the best way is to create a side event e.g. vanilla compatible jungle jam or even an agreed upon modded version. and see if and how it's integrated into the main game as it gains popularity
@@stylishgaby it is absolutely a troll u dipshit lmao
@@sptflcrw8583 no, you are wrong, no one here is a troll, especially not the guy you're replying to. Everyone here is completely serious, both rishi and the commenters.
When you started the Rishi's Jungle Jam part I laughed at the initial listing of elements, thinking it was a joke. But then it all made so much sense, and it should be the standard for sure.
lmao stop
@@sptflcrw8583 why shouldn't it be the standard?
@@StreamWatcher-kj7cb the starman is a solution to camping, but still mixes like what, 8 seconds of invincibility randomly into a game. Imagine your playing work no degeneracy and the enemy gets the starman. Now your forced to run away. Cool, but not cool.
lmao su much people saying it should be standard smh.. those plats would be so much worse for combos and good edguards, etc, come on how easy is to convince you people
All you had to say to get me to play Rishi's Jungle Jam was "wobbling is banned"
"icies return to Alaska"
What are complaining about, Wobbling has counterplay
Don't get grabbed
nice one @@azophi
Imagine this.
If a player is being wobbled the game sensed this and spawns a star directly on top of the player in question, breaking them free and giving them what is basically free damage
@@silver5798 or you could
I don't know
Just ban wobbling or play a game that doesn't have wobbling at all, like Ultimate
What if instead of a “star man” we put something to recover health on either low or Very low?
My issue with Starman (which you did address) is that it can still randomly become an intrusion in the game.
-Mess up a combo
-benefit one player over another if both players are near center stage
etc.
Clearly there’s also a risk-reward involved with going for the star man, but the reward is REALLY HIGH, since there’s no where to run away to thanks to how great the stage is for isolation. If the purpose of Star Man is to mitigate camping, then allowing the player being camped to recover health during that time from the stage, could be a better solution. That way, it’s less of a reward for players who are engaging, but may have better means to get to the item from center stage ie. higher movement speed like fox/falcon, moves with more hit stun or higher jumps like Falco).
--
I do theorize that having one stage in a platform based fighter will become a very polarizing trait for the cast. However, the fact that we’ve eliminated so many other random elements with this ruleset might actually make up for that. lol
I think healing field in ultimate may work really well since it requires you to stay within the field to gain health, forcing the opponent to approach to try to push you out of the field.
@@mitrimind1027 that's a good idea. I don't think this ruleset works for Ultimate though. We would have to mod in that item for Melee. Ultimate doesn't have an issue with ledge stalling due to the mechanics.
It's an element that for sure would work best in a catastrophically high-risk high reward scenario, tho the game doesn't allow us to tweak the ruleset in that manner sadly. But I'm so happy to see an item legalized at all that I'm down for it tbh.
If the item only heals, a stock lead means free camping
@@brafy2981 yep. You are right. However, only a few characters can stall with invulnerability, so the logs and clap traps actually help to stop some of that camping.
Technically, characters could ledge camp right now lol but it's not a huge part of the meta except for Puff, so I still think that just minimalizing the reward for camping is ok, as opposed to eliminating the threat.
But of course, I'm open to any other suggestions.
I just think that a starman presents other potential issues.
Ah, classic rishi. An elaborate 15 minute setup to a great meme
I don't think he's trolling
I'm pretty sure it's not a meme
He’s not trolling, but it was still a great meme
@@evanpotter860 he is trolling, stop it lmao
you kidding me! Rishi 's Jungle Jam is the ruleset Melee needs right now. This is NOT a meme!!1
Yeah i agree, i shouldnt be forced to shower before going to a smah tourney
love that album. shower so the flies don't come ;)
why tf is this ruleset cool
Cause we are so used to use the same ruleset idea, this idea Is something fresh And have tons of potential
Everybody Gangsta 'til you realize he was serious about Jungle Jam
I think the skill we value the most in
Smash is: someone's ability to quickly adapt and problem solve on the fly given their accumulated game / match up knowledge at that point in the metagame.
why quickly / on the fly? If Leffen comes in against Hbox and has a stronger gameplan and wins 3 games but Hbox was adapting and making each game closer, by this metric, Hbox has demonstrated superiority by the metric you suggest
@@rishi360 I said based on accumulated game and match up knowledge. Leffen was clearly adapting to Hbox's spacing even if his gameplan stayed the same and what I said doesn't discount his gameplan
@@GimR my point is you can win a set without making any adaptations. We aren't measuring amount of adaptation per game, so I don't think you could say it's the most valued skill. What you're getting at, I think, is the "game/MU knowledge" part that we're measuring.
@@rishi360 I guess what each of us means by adaptation is important here
Rishi Your referencing adaptation during a set rather than general adaptation over the life of the game, which seems to be GimR’s idea of adaptation. Base skills: Taking less damage than your opponent, Giving more damage than your opponent, maintaining control of the stage and other methods of limiting your opponent’s options, reacting to a situation in time to either avoid damage, give damage, take a stock, or grab more stage control to continue limiting your opponent’s options- okay see this is where my problem is, this list could probably go on forever. When you play smash for a while, you can see what is or isn’t degenerate gameplay intuitively, but defining what that means overall is another story, and the list of skills that can make someone a strong player is also quite extensive and grows every tournament as the meta is always changing at these early stages.
*doesn't propose a new Ultimate rule set but only a melee one*
Me: dang it, I guess we're on our own
You can recreate the Jungle Jam in Ultimate
@@meyes5671 yeah we can but I dont think it would work as well for Ultimate
1 stock 5 minutes healing spirit great cave offensive feels good
30 chosen by TO stages with players on all random with hazards and items off, test the players on how much they know the whole game and counterplay. *true test of skill*
"I encourage you to try playing degenerately"
Ah, more cultured words have ne'er been spoke.
You bring up some incredibly great points!
Your comedic ruleset is quite hilariously good at getting them across as well. We need more solidly defined skill values as a community.
The problem with that, and why there is always such controversy on proposed bans, is that it's very unlikely for everyone to unanimously agree on what skills are valued and what aren't
At the very least, I'm looking forward to playing RJJ with my friends at smashfests
Rishi’s Jungle Jam is amazing
I’m never playing the standard rule set again
This is actually fantastic. I’m just an ultimate scrub but this definitely gets me thinking about possibilities for local friendlies at the very least
This.
I disagree.. a 10ft tennis racket would require skill.. that is all
*strength
@@corronchilejano you'd struggle to hit any balls flying at your body if the racket handle was 10ft long. the pro strat at that point would be for your opponent to hit all their balls toward your body.
@@Officialencode I mean sure, but have you handled a tennis racket for any sort of time? A 10 foot one would weigh, being optimistic, about 8 times as much as a normal one, for a woopin' 25 kilos.
I can't tell if you're joking about marth or being serious, because both are sarcastically true.
It would require skill, but a different skill
I am now a Rishi's Jungle Jammer.
Players have been creating their own ways to plays Smash since before I started playing Melee around 2005. One of the things that got me into Melee was an article in Nintendo Power talking about how they had started playing their own modified rules. One of them was called King of the Hill set in Jungle Japes, last person on the rock when the timer ran out won.
10:20 was Salem drunk making this tweet?
I feel like the entire video was one long build up to “ban wobbling”
Wobbling has counterplay, though
Don't get grabbed
This guy made an entire coherent tesis with the only purpouse of baning woobling
And I couldn't agree more
Honestly that dude solving the rubics cube and wobbling without looking is pretty impressive.
So basically your solution is to just increase the max timer, and add Kongo Jungle to the list of legal stages? Thats pretty simple, but it also makes sense. The one thing I dislike is the Star because it has a chance to spawn near or on the rock too and then give the campers an even better advantage. They could also just only focus on ways to get the star and then start camping which makes it easier for them.
No, kongo jungle is the only stage in rishis jungle jam
I've always felt that competitive Smash should place greater value in the skills of managing and mitigating chaos. It's the only fighting game that really even enables the concept to be explored.
Also, those rules sound pretty dope.
You're the first person I've seen address the issue of wobbling ignoring the two sided interaction of DI, thank you
this felt like a video I'd watch in school but about something I actually care about, very cool
I know it's just the normal Kongo Jungle soundtrack, but there's something beautiful about the fact it starts to sound bassboosted when Rishi talks about enabling starman at 13:44.
Wow, this Donkey Kong TH-camr plays Smash?
That ending had me in tears. Caught me the hell off guard. You, sir, are a legend.
Wobbling isn't that bad, it has counterplay
Don't get grabbed
I'm down for this new ruleset. It's varied and it really does put the emphasis on skills we value!
Haha love the foreshadowing of Rishi's Jungle Jam with the DK pick at 0:35
plus you can have that banger of a dk rap playing at every tournament
Hiram Plaza That’s the real reason. No other excuse is necessary.
The ending to this video gave me such intense emotional whiplash that I actually started fucking crying. What a roller coaster this is.
Was kinda hoping you were gonna offer a solution to Ultimate after you talked about new ways to control rules ngl
I actually like the idea of stage specific rulesets that may incorporate certain items to vary up competitive play in side events. Please do more.
I hate these videos because they have just enough irony that people who take everything serious at face value will conclude that absolutely nothing in this video is real or a valid argument, damn you rishi
the whole video is satire, it's a joke about hax's video, if you want real philosophy of esports go watch that instead of an obvious meme
@@AlexRoseGames so what's the message of the video? Changing the rules at this point is completely silly, and we just need to deal with any shit ones? Because that's what i got from it.
All that water in Kongo Jungle will encourage players to finally shower for once.
Extremely well thought out!
This video is truly fascinating and I've learned so much, thank you
What to take away from this video:
No: Rishi’s Jungle Jan is the absolute perfect rule set and nothing else can be better.
Yes: Think of some new rulesets yourself, be creative, and experiment.
One problem I see is that people might not like the fact that only 1 stage is available. Being stuck to only 1 stage can kinda feel bad and could also be boring for spectators as well
I'm taking this seriously...
I like it
Wow. That was extremely concise and well thought out. I absolutely love your idea for a rishi jungle jam. What other stages could be made into interesting "competitive" formats?! This is the type of revival that melee needs it would be hilarious to see this at tournaments.
Also, lots of games have *some* randomness. Look at dota 2, filled with randomness. It's about how that randomness is used in the format. Great video
this is genuinely one of the most intuitive and efficient solutions i've seen to a lot of problems melee has historically had over its entire lifetime
Hands down the best part of this is the soul shattering confusion due to the closing 4 minutes of the video. I don't think I will ever know peace again until I know whether it's a meme or not, and getting that answer seems about as likely as god coming down from the heavens to compete in a melee tournament with the Rishi's Jungle Jam Ruleset.
Dude come up with more of these, this is a genius idea.
I'm probably the only person to disagree with Rishi's Jungle Jam, regarding the comments at least. First, I'd like to mention on how you didn't mention the viability of characters, and why counterpicks are a thing in the first place. The reason we have counterpicks is so one character or person gets punished for losing by playing on an unfavorable stage. This could also lead to things like banning stages where their character preform well, etc. Now, why I don't like it. Kongo Jungle has an uneven stage layout, which you can get used to, but some characters don't preform well on this stage at all. The reason why even stages are because every character can do something, they have potential on every stage. Now, back to counterpicks, some characters have better stages than others. But, Kongo Jungle can make characters better, which obviously is a good thing, which is one of the reasons why I don't hate this ruleset, just don't prefer it. Now, onto something a little controversial, which is the look of a game. People watch Melee because it looks fast and impressive, and it takes a lot of time and skill to make it seem that way. But, this ruleset doesn't look all that entertaining to a viewer stand point. "hm yes i can't wait for this samus to camp the middle platform and wait for a starman" Does that sound entertaining to you? Overall, I don't hate this ruleset at all, I might even play it one time and maybe my opinion will change, but as it stands, it's an eh.
Funny thing is, I'd probably start watching Melee again if people pushed the meta of Jungle Jam.
This is a lot like how the Starcraft esports community (especially in the old BW days when there weren't any patches coming anymore) would carefully craft the game's competitive maps for faction balance. If the developers were willing, there's a lot they could do. As is, I don't know how good the custom map features are, but maybe something similar could be worked out for Ultimate.
People who thought this video was a joke miss the point of the whole damn video
no ur just a fucking idiot lmao
Rishi's Jungle Jam is the apex of ruleset memes: funky enough to make you laugh, but logical enough to make you double-take.
This guy is the most beautiful troll. He makes all these great points about the game and then goes full Rishi’s jungle jam on us
the "great points" were a thinly veiled parody of hax's video, and jokes about esports commentators, he wasn't serious about anything
I laughed when Rishi said "Street Fighter is about footsies" with a SF V pic as an example
Actually the best shitpost I've ever seen
Great video! I like how it's not only an analysis of smash, but competitive games in general. I'd love to see this format in competition, and also would love to see more of these alternative formats!
Can you come up with similar rulesets for Ultimate?
this exact ruleset works in ultimate.
Ultimate has less mechanical issues tho. Ledge stalling and air stalling simply don’t exist in ultimate, invalidating the need for this rulesey
For ultimate, I've found that going hazards off Green Greens with the killer eye on low is a good solution to camping. It causes players to want to prioritize stage control and placing the eye in the trajectory of where the opponent is forces them to move, but one eye cant cover the whole stage, just an option. And you'll only get more than one eye if your opponent doesn't to stop camping.
Special flag kinda works too instead of star man for ultimate.
It leaves the person trying to get a lead off of the camper too open to be worth it though. Lucas can PK Freeze someone to death from most of the stage positions easily if that were the case, not to mention shadowball, charge shot, Frizz, sun salutation, Nakita, key, canonball, Farrore's wind, Celestial flame, Flare blitz and Quickdraw all can punish it on reaction from a camping position. Those and you can accidentally pick it up instead of attacking if one falls in front of you right before you start an attack unlike crates and capsules in Melee you do a pickup animation and don't attack in Ultimate.
@@yellowlemonPenguin so what do you want, the ability to cancel the animation? because that would be broken as fuck. it'd just completely force people to approach. remember smash 4 cloud and how he could just force you to approach with limit? it'd be like that but even worse.
Somebody in the comments said healing fields would be better
@@sptflcrw8583 no I'm just saying it's not a better item option for the mode, I never said it needed to change, that was your thought.
@@what_did_you_expect I would agree but camping off a stock lead would still be possible in that case.
Hero shouldn't be banned. Sure top decking a funny move is possible but unlike Luigi's missfire or Game and Watch's 9, or Peach's bomb, Hero runs the risk of instantly losing his stock with EVERY top deck. Using the right spell requires spacing, reaction time, reading it off the menu, and often aim.
Definitely gonna try this with some friends, but I honestly can't tell if this is a meme video or not because you make more good points than bad. Pretty sure this is in between serious and not serious.
it may be to take what the melee community seems to value and propose something that they inherently may not like, but there is no logical argument against
This is a horrible idea, the close blast zones prevent off stage stalling, but just put a ledge stall limit, don’t include invincibility. This is like banning wobbling and then adding wobbling, there is no counter play once someone gets it, hell I could beat Mango with it. Also, in the shine 2019 jungle jam tourney, Plup stayed off stage and was able to consistently steal the star out of other’s boxes or barrels. This means that the players are able to turn stalling into an even more strong strategy.
I just watched a 15 minute video of someone trying to sell me on using Kongo Jungle as the only legal stage in Melee.
...And yet, I'm less opposed to the idea than I expected. Don't know how you managed that.
I actually completely agree with running Melee with Rishi's Jungle Jam ruleset. We could start by running local tournaments with both the standard and Rishi's Jungle Jam rulesets, then we could move up to having Rishi's Jungle Jam as a side event at larger tournaments, before eventually phasing Rishi's Jungle Jam in as the main form of Melee at tournaments that don't run Melee as a main stage event, before finally phasing it in as the main form of Melee in all tournaments.
You had me for the entire video. Like, I thought you were serious up until I heard Starman.
He was serious the whole video wtf
It starts to be scary how insanely genius Rishi is 😳 he covered every aspect and any counter argument. It’s too good
Great video! Saw the 15 min timestamp on a video about rules, and expected to be bored, but this is really well done!
Kinda wished you had proposed a serious ruleset at the end though.
Rishi's Jungle Jam could work though. We'll need to run it as a side event.
10:15 Salem deadass says "slow your row" LOOOLLLL
That taunt rule you mentioned sounds really bad, have you seen how long YL taunt is?
During high school I ran an alternate game mode in the Looser's/Underdog bracket called "Actually having fun." You had 50 stock, Super Sudden Death Melee, and every single bomb item plus heart container was enabled at VERY HIGH.
Oh my god it was the dumbest shit but seriously, it was actually fun in a competitive setting. It's also called Bomberman mode because you can't directly attack a player unless you are attacking a bomb specifically to catch an opponent off guard.
I've always been frustrated with this game's competitive rulesets, and I never knew why. Until this video.
Turns out, my valued skills have always been at odds with the valued skills of the competitive community. My biggest complaint is how competitive players value a glitch, aka wavedashing. (I have other complaints but they're irrelevant) Now I'm able to understand and articulate exactly why: I value mechanics being intuitive more than I value them allowing movement options, which is the opposite of most competitive players.
I also learned what the difference between constructive and deconstructive rulesets are, and after a bit of introspection, I've realized why I despise deconstructive rulesets: I've always viewed game developers as legitimate authorities, but gaming communities as merely "arbitrary scrublords" who ban things only if it doesn't help them win. This video helped me realize...the game developers are *just as arbitrary as the players*, and probably the main reason I never noticed that is because I never played against a developer!
Tl;dr: Rishi helps longtime casul understand how rules work, and to better understand some of his own mental hang-ups
wavedashing isn't a glitch
LOL presenting the claptrap as an answer to Puff ledge stalling is genius
I thought the starman thing was insane at first, but now I feel convinced that it's a clever, natural solution to the problems this video's trying to address.
The problem is if you just get one by sheer luck it's a free stock.
Something to note, is that fighting games like Street Fighter, basically play on Default rules bc it's a "Tournament Fighter"
Smash is a Party Brawler with a TON of 'wacky' insane things like Items, Crazy stages with hazards, hell half of the glitches are a product of it being a platform fighter.
This is part of why it's so hard to just make a Rule Set. But we've basically leveled it down and removed as much RNG as we can which increases the chances of independent skill dictating the wins. But as you mentioned, plenty of the rules and things we do are up to interpretation which can cause a lot of problems.
Can't tell if the proposed rule set is serious or a meme.
DM Wanderer I wrote out a paragraph replying but deleted it as I felt I came off wrong. Not only do I think he’s serious I also think it’s a solid idea.
its a meme
Barrels almost always roll on that stage, creating spontaneous hitboxes. They also randomly explode when broken. Crates give Donkey Kong a certain advantage as he moves fastest while carrying heavy objects and is the only one who can jump while holding them. They also randomly explode when broken.
Why this ruleset kinda fire tho
Meme or not this brings up a discussion and evolution that will surely continue as esports progresses: Do valued skills matter most? These are video games, and they already have a wide diversity of things in them, almost always much more wide than sports. This means they are more likely to have diverse win conditions and skills. So should we just choose the win conditions and valued skills we care most about right away, or leave it as a matter of measuring who is best at the game on the current patch, as is?
I think for video games, reactivity is going to be the standard. Patches are a main stay now and in a way they are reactive themselves. In general, the people are going to decide the way they want the game to be played, and not many esports tournaments are going to intentionally reward finding cheese/off-meta playstyles.
(VERY LOW)
This actually reflects something I read some time ago about like, a game dev talking about nerfs and buffs and how creative buffs feel waaaay better than a plain nerf and keep the game from getting stale
Lol this will never happen.
The real way to make melee great again is to fix the ledge so that it cant be abused, and ban puff.
Also u ever try to ledgedash on that stage? It moves and could easily kill a match
Oh and freeze stadium
I am intruigued about watching a tournament with your proposed ruleset.
Thanks for your orderly presentation of rational arguments. Great work overall!
th-cam.com/video/Y2cs5C35Fz8/w-d-xo.html
Classic salem, Always putting his foot in his mouth. Smh
He's just not nearly as intelligent as he believes he is.
"If one day the earth became denser and gravity increased would we care who won a tennis match a week from then?"
Naw cause we'd be smushed
I remember when Salem was awesome for winning Brawl at Apex, I’m ashamed to have been a fan of him lol
I am thinking what would be better would be Franklin Badge/Mr. Saturn/Metal Box/Flipper/Food at Medium rate. Franklin Badge and Food would discourage too much projectile camping. Mr. Saturn would destroy shields. Flipper would discourage edgegrab exploitation. And as for Metal Box? Temporary knockback reduction to disrupt combos.