Noobie Sensei Yeah but in Ultimate, dash attack > sour spot f-air > d-air kills most characters at 0 and true combos basically everyone at 0. Meaning in Ult, DK can just delete people if he’s the first to win neutral on most characters.
@Mai Nyigguh Yeah, but DK's dash attack alone doesn't make him a good character in ultimate, his cargo carry allows him to stage spike opponents early just off of a grab near ledge, and he has a lot of options to edge guard if he can't quite get the stage spike.
20DK is here Everyone plays Donkey Kong and the only viable stage is Kongo Jungle. Everyone counters each other with relative ease, Melee's meta becomes such a breeze. It may move slow, you'll want to die, but this game's... *one helluva buy*
a. dk's shield is big but he still can be poked at max shield which means it's bad b. dk punish game vs true floaties in peach and puff is not nearly as good c. ow oof ow lasers oof oof owie ouch
@@o0WillDaBeast0o A good option for DK is to dash back PS lasers. Not only is it much easier to PS when he's dashing away, but it sets up perfectly for an immediate bair OoS. Take laser jab, dtilt, ftilt, and up-B also seem like very good options to stuff approaches as well.
Gerrit Postema alot of character, including top tiers can be poked at max shield. And every character without a good range tool gets fucked by falco laser spam. I dont think these are dk specific weaknesses since they apply to so many of the cast. Punishing true floatys does suck though
i actually think DK's punish game against floaties is pretty favorable considering what other characters get, particularly against peach and samus. not as much against puff since puff is very lightweight, and the cargo throws are not weight dependant. puffs light weight gives weight dependent throws better frame advantage, but isn't helpful to throws like sheik's downthrow or dk's cargo throws.
HiTechnic I wouldn’t say it like that. But if used a high tier, he would be the best player in the game. But pika is usually ranked very similarly to DK.
@Mark Aleman "But if used a high tier, he would be the best player in the game." that's not how it works for multiple reasons. these being: - Pikachu fits him like no other character does, you can't just say if Amsah didn't play Yoshi he would be the best because his playstyle just fits Yoshi, same for Axe - Matchup experience plays a huge role in balancing out the cast a tiny bit - Emphasis on point 1, tier list don't mean shit if you are worse with top characters then with high tier characters also its Pikachu. he is on the lower end of high tier.
First, yeah your right. His character is, and always will be, pikachu. A tier list only matters if both players are of equal skill. But players do play at a disadvantage when picking mid tiers. Axe is very good. But keep in mind no one ever had to worry about pikachu before, so they don’t practice against one. Second. Pikachu will not stay at his current ranking. Look at yoshi’s ranking before and after Amsa victory. No that people have to worry about pikachu there is a great chance that a great strategy will come around that allows you to destroy pika. Anyway it nice to see other characters rise up rather than Marth, Fox, Falco, and peach. I think everyone can agree on that.
Shoutout back to AsumSamus for sharing this video around. It's pretty cool to learn about the close-knit melee community and the game itself, despite never having picked up the game.
ckyulmiqnudaetr won BODIED 7 (May 2024), with a total of 106 entrants, with wins over KJH, Zuppy and Ossify. Junebug won Xanadu Legends 500 (April 2023) with a total of 115 entrants, and also won Patchwork 2024 (July) with a total of 109 entrants, which stands as the largest tournaments won by a solo Donkey Kong
Here after Ringler's set against Leffen. Went up 2-0 against Leffen's fox and forced a MU change to Sheik. Leffen brought it back. Still think DKs hurtbox is too big a hurdle but while not great his neutral is underrated. And his punish game is nutty.
You got me with that big house 8 troll I spent a good 15 minutes watching the whole set SERIOUSLY confused, but the victory screen at the end says 1sd for marth only ;)
I’ve never seen a “who can win a major” tier list that i agree with more. Let’s go mid/high-lowtiers! you’ve made this young link main who thinks they have to settle and play marth very happy
@@electrode8239 Young link gets destroyed by fast fallers. They're too fast for him to camp them, they can crouch cancel almost all of his moves at low percent, young link has very little combos against them and struggles to kill them because bomb into dair isn't a reliable kill confirm in these mus and on the other hand fast fallers have strong combos against him and kill yink very early because of his light weight.
i feel like rishis the only person who approaches "who can win a major" as actually who can win a major and not who will win a major, cause dk can win a major but with a lack of representation he probably wont, its just like how when people outside the community say "only 6 viable characters" they really mean only 6 characters that most people use, not the ones who are actually viable
1. Dks down b comes out on frame 19 while the average reaction time is between 200 and 250 milliseconds. And since were talking about a game like melee, it won't be as nearly as good of a move unless your playing against beginners. Dk doesn't a wall jump and has no vertical distance on his recovery, or vertical hit-boxes. Dk has no punish game on floaties, jiggly puffs back air is also DISJOINTED, so the fact that their almost the same length is irrelevant. 3. You can mash out of Dks cargo throw at low percents. 4. Falcos lasers turn dk around making constant pivot back-airs very hard as a strong neutral tool. It looks like the best way to play dk would be to bait and punish and have your opponent approach you. 5. Dks aerials are significantly slower than the rest of the viable characters. His fastest aerial is back air at 6 frames and his slowest is down air at 14 frames. foxes slowest aerial is up air at 8 frames with the rest falling in the 4-6 range.
Im a year late but I wanted to focus on your second point. Dk actually does have a punish game on floaties and its better than most characters, it just pales in comparison to fast fallers but then again most of the time floaties dont get comboed as hard as fast fallers. Also while Puffs bair is disjointed, in a vacuum Dk's back air is actually better than puff's, as it comes out faster at frame 7 and has a more active hitbox. The only reason Puff's back air is so good is because its on Puff. If it was on any other character they wouldn't be able to utilize it nearly as effectively and it would just be a slightly above average back air at best. Most characters would much rather have DK's back air any day over Puff's. So while Puff's back air is better in the context of being on Puff, Dk's back air is actually the better back air if we actually look at the moves individually. In the end I dont think Dk is a viable character but I definitely do think he's the best non viable character in the game
@@shadownite3378 Yeah i think samus is the best non-viable character only because of the fox matchup. But dks back air is definitely better both if looked at in a vacuum and in its shear power.
Just a small thing about pikachu's upair it only has 3 different "hitboxes", which are really just timings (frames 3-4, 5-6, and 7-8 all have their own trajectory but the hitbox is the same). I'm guessing when people say 4 they are counting reverse tailspike as its own thing, but the first and third timings of upair all have reverse hitboxes, but most pika mains just count the reverse and regular hitboxes as the same thing and say that upair has 3.
So glad I saw your tweet, this video was awesome. It's amazing to see Melee continue to evolve with more potential even after such a long competitive history
Dk has such an expansive vertical combo game with cargo throw that its a real shame that the DK meta hasn't expanded further. I think the pool of viable characters may expand to include DK some day.
Following how great amsa has been for legitimizing an otherwise thought to be garbage character, I’d love to see a rise in DK. X-factors as a huge deal and I’m glad you talked about them. Yoshi’s double jump canceling and his special shield parries are such unique and amazing moves once someone learns how to use them
Just commenting because I didn't see anyone saying it: a "hurtbox" is the part of your character that deals damage to opponents, thus hurtbox. A "hitbox" is the part of your character that can GET hit. Keeping this terminology consistent helps newcomers!
so i've been tryna get into actually playing melee for the past two weeks i was trying to play marth since his melee moveset isn't far off from in other games but this video got me to try dk, and i gotta say, he's clicking extremely well you've made a new dk main, rishi congrats
DK has some nice tools and that X-factor cargo carry, but the extremely low win rate against players like HBox, Leffen, Wizzy, etc. is what gives me pause on DK’s chances. I’d love to see it, though.
Win rate vs players is determined by the DK players, not the character's potential, at least in low tier cases bc their characters are not fully optimized
With a thumbnail like that I sure hope so. I liked this vid much more than other people's because you took time to go into detail of the character's strengths and weakness. I hope you do more and maybe even suggest ways for the characters to overcome the weaknesses or mention ways people have been overcoming them.
As a DK main in ultimate who is scared to play him in melee due to my unfamiliarity with him and his approach weaknesses, its cool to see how to better utilize him! Keep it up love this video!
If the DK is very knowledgeable and skilled with Fox, Falco, Marth, Ice Climber, Sheik, Peach, etc matchups, then yeah sure. Though that could be said for any hidden potential characters, like Young Link/Link.
i'm here from the future, DK wins a major. thanks junebug
not technically a major i think unfortunately
2024 is 20DK! 📈🍌
edit: moky has fallen to the Kong! moky has fallen to the Kong! This is not a drill!
he didnt
@@alcaboz_sadino7217 tbf they might be talking about the regional DK won a while ago, however, he did get 3rd at a Supermajor
@@illford SUPERNOVA WAS NOT A SUPERMAJOR
please make more video essays. this was great!
The god has spoken
100% agree. Rishi you’re a beast
*PLEAS MAKE MORE VIDEOS IN GENERAL. I LOVE YOU*
@@r.i.petika829 chill
This comment aged well I just watched like fuckin 4 of them
TLDW: He is expected to win every major from here on out forever and ever
@Epic Gamer It's all that needs to be said
*guarenteed
Well…
one of the best aged videos in melee
the older this video gets, the finer it ages. what a prophetic king of the game.
it's aged even better now
I wish bum would come back. His DK was ahead of the meta
The gimz always wins
A ten years come back
I believe he said on Smashboards that he is interested in coming back, but that was years ago, so I don't know.
I wish they would have given him the coconut gun in ult
Crazy name drop :) now I really know how long you've been in the scene...since the beginning man lol.
Come back Bum !
They hated him because he told the truth
The mental image of summoning four multi shining Falcos to your aid is now one of my favorite things
Let's talk about what REALLY makes DK good:
His dash attack
This isn't Ultimate.
Noobie Sensei Yeah but in Ultimate, dash attack > sour spot f-air > d-air kills most characters at 0 and true combos basically everyone at 0. Meaning in Ult, DK can just delete people if he’s the first to win neutral on most characters.
Mai Nyigguh I know, but he’s still pretty good in Ult, and I wanted to nerd out about a secondary of mine.
@Mai Nyigguh Sparta?
@Mai Nyigguh Yeah, but DK's dash attack alone doesn't make him a good character in ultimate, his cargo carry allows him to stage spike opponents early just off of a grab near ledge, and he has a lot of options to edge guard if he can't quite get the stage spike.
The 4 multi shining falcos are at an all time high atm 🦍
20DK is here
Everyone plays Donkey Kong and the only viable stage is Kongo Jungle.
Everyone counters each other with relative ease, Melee's meta becomes such a breeze.
It may move slow, you'll want to die,
but this game's...
*one helluva buy*
20NG
@@verbosed lol nice, that looks like Dong
#dksweep
To have dk win a major, someone must first main him
RISHI LETS GO BRO!!!!!
Green ranger.
I main dk
If only Thunderz played Melee
@Orb Plant yeah, but I meant MAINLY play melee, but damn he's sooo good he was able to follow up with dash attack
a. dk's shield is big but he still can be poked at max shield which means it's bad
b. dk punish game vs true floaties in peach and puff is not nearly as good
c. ow oof ow lasers oof oof owie ouch
Barbazboub along with being a big target, generally DK wants to approach with his back facing, and lasers turn you around when you get hit by them.
@@o0WillDaBeast0o A good option for DK is to dash back PS lasers. Not only is it much easier to PS when he's dashing away, but it sets up perfectly for an immediate bair OoS.
Take laser jab, dtilt, ftilt, and up-B also seem like very good options to stuff approaches as well.
Gerrit Postema alot of character, including top tiers can be poked at max shield. And every character without a good range tool gets fucked by falco laser spam. I dont think these are dk specific weaknesses since they apply to so many of the cast. Punishing true floatys does suck though
i actually think DK's punish game against floaties is pretty favorable considering what other characters get, particularly against peach and samus. not as much against puff since puff is very lightweight, and the cargo throws are not weight dependant. puffs light weight gives weight dependent throws better frame advantage, but isn't helpful to throws like sheik's downthrow or dk's cargo throws.
@@danluis9922 Like Sheik - I donth get this "best shield" thing. Hers is huge yeah, but her feet are clearly sticking out
now i know you might be surprised to hear this.
So what you’re saying is if Axe played an actual good character like DK, we would all be doomed? 🤔🤔🤔
HiTechnic I wouldn’t say it like that. But if used a high tier, he would be the best player in the game. But pika is usually ranked very similarly to DK.
@Mark Aleman "But if used a high tier, he would be the best player in the game."
that's not how it works for multiple reasons.
these being:
- Pikachu fits him like no other character does, you can't just say if Amsah didn't play Yoshi he would be the best because his playstyle just fits Yoshi, same for Axe
- Matchup experience plays a huge role in balancing out the cast a tiny bit
- Emphasis on point 1, tier list don't mean shit if you are worse with top characters then with high tier characters
also its Pikachu. he is on the lower end of high tier.
First, yeah your right. His character is, and always will be, pikachu. A tier list only matters if both players are of equal skill. But players do play at a disadvantage when picking mid tiers. Axe is very good. But keep in mind no one ever had to worry about pikachu before, so they don’t practice against one. Second. Pikachu will not stay at his current ranking. Look at yoshi’s ranking before and after Amsa victory. No that people have to worry about pikachu there is a great chance that a great strategy will come around that allows you to destroy pika.
Anyway it nice to see other characters rise up rather than Marth, Fox, Falco, and peach. I think everyone can agree on that.
I no pro or even very good at Melee, but I think DK is good, if unoptimized.
@@markaleman4419 a what
It's crazy how no one's talking about how Rishi completely called this
"Pikachu sneak up on us"
Axe literally in grand finals all year until SS8.
Rishi: Can DK win a major?
Yoshi: am I a joke to you
@Kuriz, the plural being 'Kurizes'
would be a serious uphill battle tho
Shoutout back to AsumSamus for sharing this video around. It's pretty cool to learn about the close-knit melee community and the game itself, despite never having picked up the game.
You mean AsumSaus?
@@GD-ep5fl Well I'm dumb. Gotta leave that in now to display my dumbness to the masses.
@@bluesteele5786 nah just change the original comment, then I'll delete mine
It's never too late
ckyulmiqnudaetr won BODIED 7 (May 2024), with a total of 106 entrants, with wins over KJH, Zuppy and Ossify.
Junebug won Xanadu Legends 500 (April 2023) with a total of 115 entrants, and also won Patchwork 2024 (July) with a total of 109 entrants, which stands as the largest tournaments won by a solo Donkey Kong
If you don't become the Axe of DK I will be disappointed
Fr tho Rishi do it
We already know DK can beat Toph, so you may be onto something
Hugs also has some trouble with DK so it's doable
if dk can cargo upthrow toph into f smash then the next step is a supermajor
L Guy yeah I heard he lost to green ranger
kinda weird how dk beats toph when she normally has a favorable mu against top-tiers like The Boulder
It took me way to long to get this joke.
Here after Ringler's set against Leffen. Went up 2-0 against Leffen's fox and forced a MU change to Sheik. Leffen brought it back. Still think DKs hurtbox is too big a hurdle but while not great his neutral is underrated. And his punish game is nutty.
If DK didn't have the tie hurt box he'd be Triple S tier by now
it literally makes no sense that an article of clothing is a hitbox. What were the devs thinking?
@@lapplandkun9273 And it STILL EXISTS in Ultimate. I'm gonna blow my top...
You got me with that big house 8 troll I spent a good 15 minutes watching the whole set SERIOUSLY confused, but the victory screen at the end says 1sd for marth only ;)
I was looking for it too LOL. It's been so long since that set happened in Smash years, I had completely forgotten about it.
What was confusing?
@@lukekapala1020 It's confusing how good Rishi's DK is against Zain on FD.
Such a great set though
If I Didn't run into this post I'd still be looking for it.
Well well well. Guess who just won a major
Very informative! Does this mean you make video essays now?
is It something You would like to See Now?
I just subbed to your channel recently so seeing you randomly comment on a Melee video is freaking me out. Lol
Never tought you’d have a great taste for games as well
You do seem like a DK main
Now You See It on a melee video? What is this a crossover episode???
just call me when Luigi wins a major so people stop claiming that he's lower than the doc zzzzz
Well.
This aged well
Can Junebug Win a Major?
*"DK plays a bit like Marth in neutral"*
lol imagine my shock
Yes
I’ve never seen a “who can win a major” tier list that i agree with more. Let’s go mid/high-lowtiers! you’ve made this young link main who thinks they have to settle and play marth very happy
lol the only character I disagree with in that list is Young Link. I don't think he can win a major :(
@@Thierce can you explain whats the major flaws of the young link?
@@electrode8239 Young link gets destroyed by fast fallers. They're too fast for him to camp them, they can crouch cancel almost all of his moves at low percent, young link has very little combos against them and struggles to kill them because bomb into dair isn't a reliable kill confirm in these mus and on the other hand fast fallers have strong combos against him and kill yink very early because of his light weight.
i feel like rishis the only person who approaches "who can win a major" as actually who can win a major and not who will win a major, cause dk can win a major but with a lack of representation he probably wont, its just like how when people outside the community say "only 6 viable characters" they really mean only 6 characters that most people use, not the ones who are actually viable
step 1: install PM
step 2: yes
coming back to this one for no particular reason
3 years later.
Dk's one of the best characters in the game.
What a glow up.
:)
If rishi put money on this and bet 5 years he would be so much richer now
dk just got 3rd at a supermajor lmfaooo
1. Dks down b comes out on frame 19 while the average reaction time is between 200 and 250 milliseconds. And since were talking about a game like melee, it won't be as nearly as good of a move unless your playing against beginners.
Dk doesn't a wall jump and has no vertical distance on his recovery, or vertical hit-boxes. Dk has no punish game on floaties, jiggly puffs back air is also DISJOINTED, so the fact that their almost the same length is irrelevant.
3. You can mash out of Dks cargo throw at low percents.
4. Falcos lasers turn dk around making constant pivot back-airs very hard as a strong neutral tool. It looks like the best way to play dk would be to bait and punish and have your opponent approach you.
5. Dks aerials are significantly slower than the rest of the viable characters. His fastest aerial is back air at 6 frames and his slowest is down air at 14 frames. foxes slowest aerial is up air at 8 frames with the rest falling in the 4-6 range.
You clearly have not played against a skilled DK
@@greasyneckbeard667 A skilled donkey can beat any fox.
Im a year late but I wanted to focus on your second point. Dk actually does have a punish game on floaties and its better than most characters, it just pales in comparison to fast fallers but then again most of the time floaties dont get comboed as hard as fast fallers. Also while Puffs bair is disjointed, in a vacuum Dk's back air is actually better than puff's, as it comes out faster at frame 7 and has a more active hitbox. The only reason Puff's back air is so good is because its on Puff. If it was on any other character they wouldn't be able to utilize it nearly as effectively and it would just be a slightly above average back air at best. Most characters would much rather have DK's back air any day over Puff's. So while Puff's back air is better in the context of being on Puff, Dk's back air is actually the better back air if we actually look at the moves individually. In the end I dont think Dk is a viable character but I definitely do think he's the best non viable character in the game
@@shadownite3378 Yeah i think samus is the best non-viable character only because of the fox matchup. But dks back air is definitely better both if looked at in a vacuum and in its shear power.
@@capefry8323Okay but I won't lie, the mental image of DK summoning 4 Multi-Shining Falco's is absolutely hilarious.
Even IF a bit exaggerated.
such an unbelievably good video showcasing the capabilities of dk, great work man! i seriously hope this gets much more attention!
Coming back to this after Akir got 5th at the latest coinbox beating Hungrybox, Aklo and Krudo
The answer is Yes
Marths who are dk mains at heart unite!
Lmao seems like us marth mains have something for DK
What the actual fuck Im right in that demographic
Delete this they can never know
3 years later and Ringler wins a set agains Leffen and won last year a game against Shroomed :-) what time to be an ape
He lost the set against Leffen sadly but it was game 5
A true visionary.
Any character can win when the rest of the tourney has the flu!
DK is the true Marth counterpick that Fox mains should be using
possibly
Just a small thing about pikachu's upair it only has 3 different "hitboxes", which are really just timings (frames 3-4, 5-6, and 7-8 all have their own trajectory but the hitbox is the same). I'm guessing when people say 4 they are counting reverse tailspike as its own thing, but the first and third timings of upair all have reverse hitboxes, but most pika mains just count the reverse and regular hitboxes as the same thing and say that upair has 3.
so..........
the shield bit makes me think this is a joke
90% sure this is a troll, but it's so hard to tell with rishi
Shoutout to all the DK mains, videos like these give us hope
Very impressed with this video. Except now if you dont play DK at majors or you're going to look silly.
TL:DR; Green Ranger shall rise back up!
This has brought back my faith in dk as my dual main, I just hate playing against Falco and Sheik so much.
yes
It happens
So glad I saw your tweet, this video was awesome. It's amazing to see Melee continue to evolve with more potential even after such a long competitive history
This is still one of my favorite gaming related videos, super funny even if unintentionally
that fucking 4 falco shine thing actually killed me, rishi
I would absolutely LOVE more analytic content like this!
Dk has such an expansive vertical combo game with cargo throw that its a real shame that the DK meta hasn't expanded further. I think the pool of viable characters may expand to include DK some day.
Is no one gonna talk about how good the thumbnail is
I had no idea light shields even existed
I genuinely forgot that Donkey Kong is in Melee
Down B summons 4 multishining falcos 😂😂😂🤣
Forgot all about dk’s side b that spikes on regrabbing ledge and has a similar hitbox to back air but forward
take notes guys, young links on the come up
Needs more views man this is great content!
Following how great amsa has been for legitimizing an otherwise thought to be garbage character, I’d love to see a rise in DK.
X-factors as a huge deal and I’m glad you talked about them. Yoshi’s double jump canceling and his special shield parries are such unique and amazing moves once someone learns how to use them
don't do this to me rishi, I don't want to come back hopeful just to get hurt
Just commenting because I didn't see anyone saying it: a "hurtbox" is the part of your character that deals damage to opponents, thus hurtbox. A "hitbox" is the part of your character that can GET hit.
Keeping this terminology consistent helps newcomers!
Additionally, a "hungrybox" is a Jigglypuff main with a history of injuring himself during pop-offs.
actually I think it's the other way around.
so i've been tryna get into actually playing melee for the past two weeks
i was trying to play marth since his melee moveset isn't far off from in other games
but this video got me to try dk, and i gotta say, he's clicking extremely well
you've made a new dk main, rishi
congrats
prophetic
if syrox picks up DK then he has a shot at winning a major
He'll shower the meta with coconut cream pies
TH-cam says I’ve watched this video before, but obviously not because I would remember such a well made video :)
DK has some nice tools and that X-factor cargo carry, but the extremely low win rate against players like HBox, Leffen, Wizzy, etc. is what gives me pause on DK’s chances. I’d love to see it, though.
Win rate vs players is determined by the DK players, not the character's potential, at least in low tier cases bc their characters are not fully optimized
a prophet.
Great video, I'd like to see you go more in depth with DK as a character
These essays are godlike
The fact that DK’s B-air has nearly the same reach of Jigglypuff, despite being three times her size, is pathetic.
3:41 Even sadder is DK's tie having a bigger hurtbox than Puff's entire body
This has aged well
Wow thank you for this video!
EDIT: I love marth but if you drop him to main DK, I don't think anyone would oppose it ;)
He would be top tier if he could shower his opponent with coconut cream pies.
I come back to this video every now and then and I’m never ready for the ending lmao.
The year is 20NG
Just gotta get *Lucky*
lol I swear if DK is actually the best character
Cool video thanks for posting
Please make a DK tutorial or something :) awesome vid!
the 20XX donkey kong theory
Absolutely bananas.
With a thumbnail like that I sure hope so.
I liked this vid much more than other people's because you took time to go into detail of the character's strengths and weakness. I hope you do more and maybe even suggest ways for the characters to overcome the weaknesses or mention ways people have been overcoming them.
As a DK main in ultimate who is scared to play him in melee due to my unfamiliarity with him and his approach weaknesses, its cool to see how to better utilize him! Keep it up love this video!
I def agree that DK is underrated tierwise, but idk about winning any majors with him...
If the DK is very knowledgeable and skilled with Fox, Falco, Marth, Ice Climber, Sheik, Peach, etc matchups, then yeah sure.
Though that could be said for any hidden potential characters, like Young Link/Link.
It's been fun seeing more fighter diversity as time goes on!
e x p a n s i o n