Some may think this is a "race gun". Luckily we have a USPSA Grand Master class shooter (Josh, who holds multiple state titles) to comment on this: One interesting comment we didn't address in the video that we've seen repeated several times is that this is just a take on a 'race gun'. Since this rifle has non-adjustable gas and a standard carrier group (not lightened), we're extremely hard pressed to see how this fits the race-gun theme, since those elements are critically important to the tuning which most serious competitors are looking for. Take into consideration that a fair number of comp-shooters aren't looking to run ultra-light rifles since 'some' weight is still important for recoil mitigation, and the WWSD rifle really just doesn't fit into that box as far as we can tell (coming from someone who has spent years tuning and playing with race guns). ***EDIT*** Upon double checking, this is 6lbs8oz, so 6.5lbs, not the previously stated 6.8lbs
I've seen multiple "race gun" comments on your IG post. I suspect most if not all of those comments come from people who don't compete. I would posit that to many, "This gun has features / properties I am unaccustomed to or do not understand" = "This is a race gun"
I think that people see carbon fiber and think competition gun. I have my own reservations about the carbon fiber handguard, because I own one myself. I’m not sure how the 601s furniture has changed over its design life, it may very well be similarly fragile/strong.
@@JohnBrowningsGhost The polymer lower probably adds to that image as well. I have no experience with the Faxon or KE CF handguards, but I have had a Lancer handguard for almost 10 years. It's extremely stiff, albeit actually heavier than many aluminum handguards today. Like with aluminum, carbon fiber can come in varying degrees of thickness and strength. I'm certain that it's entirely possible to design a CF handguard that's more rugged than the Geissele and Daniel Defense units that are being fielded today. Whether it would be cost effective however is another matter
I guess some people are closed minded and stick to what they "Know", like the M14 and the 1911 being the only "Real Guns", etc. Those folks are out there in the world, usually sitting around the cracker barrel and personally, I don't have time to swap spit with them. I like the concept of the light weight rifle and I appreciate what Ian, Karl and Russel at KE Arms have put together in the WWSD and the Civil Defense Rifles. For most folks, these are going to be the ideal "Do Everything" rifle, from home, defense, to "Run and Gun" and practical shooting out to 600 meters or so. I especially like the Carbon Fiber handguard and wish one was made for the BREN 2 Rifles, as the aluminum handguards get really hot. My G36K has a newer polymer handguard with heat shields and its more fun to shoot a lot of rounds, as I don't need to glove-up, like I do with the BREN 2. Glad you chose the SLx8 as that's what I run on my 14.7" BREN 2 and I love it. Mine has the Raptor Reticle and I opted for the Scalar Works mount and its turned out to be an awesome set-up. Keep up the great work, Thanks.
The cartooning of him "Feeling the French" on the cover pic for the MAS 45/56 practical accuracy test made me all warm & fuzzy inside. On a totally unrelated and left field note, I ALSO think of Doc Holiday and Buffalo Bill every time I'm graced with the presence of that epic mustache😆. He was made for the career path he chose. No question.
As an engineer, the people who say "it's not going to work" about polymer and carbon fiber gun parts, simply because they're polymer or carbon fiber don't understand even the simplest aspects of engineering.
Very much this. Especially carbon fiber. It's one of the stiffest and strongest easily available materials for manufacturing. It makes total sense to use it for things like stocks, fore-ends, grips etc. Those are areas you can easily save weight while maintaining strength. Even an AR15 lower receiver could be reasonably made of carbon fiber thanks to minimal high impact moving parts being housed within it. Polymers have also progressed lightyears since first being implemented. People will gladly trust would furniture over polymer when high quality polymer is much lighter and much harder wearing. There's just a lot of minds stuck in 40s-60s gun design. Heavy is great for potential accuracy and volume of fire, but for your average soldier that is not their concern.
The materials have arrived in aerospace engineering decades ago and sports cars have the whole bodywork made from the stuff. People talking smack about carbon fiber no nothing about material science.
the WWSD basically asks us to come to the table with a fresh mind, willing to reconsider dogmas in the modern tactical carbine community. the polymer material is light and strong, the colapsible stock is exchanged for a more rugged fixed stock, and the barrel is as light as they come. basically every feature has been chosen for lightness without compromising the structural integrity. the only significant compromise is barrel weight vs volume of fire. you cant empty tens of mags with no problem, but if you consider real combat scenarios you dont often fire that much. realistic combat is mostly slow with sporadic action.
And FWIW modern pencil barrels are absolutely miles better than older ones, even the ones from the 90s, as have been shown in some of the tests Ian & Karl published during their original WWSD 2017 project, where they weren't looking into making a production gun, more just a parts list of what was available at the time.
@@moonasha socom doesent always plan on hucking their kit around for a month or two, and can be pretty damn sure where they are going they will need all the volume of fire they can get. special operations needs are not the same as your needs, or even the needs of an average soldier
I don’t get the problem these. I’m an engineer and have done quite a bit of studying and tinkering with polymer lower receivers if you spend any time researching them looking into the 3-D printing forums etc. the only real point of failure on these is the buffer tower which is already mitigated in the KP 15 by it being a monolithic a2 style lower receiver which greatly increases the cross-sectional density of the buffer tower in layman‘s terms it’s a lot beefier. Good carbon fiber/glass fiber reinforced nylon has a tensile strength around 200 give or take megapascals which is in the ballpark of 6061 aluminum which is common for plenty of lower receivers but that’s also not to mention that an aluminum lower receiver will have a lower cross-section buffer tower so all things considered they may as well be equal. TLDR if you think polymer = bad you’re a fudd and don’t know basic material properties anyone can Google this you don’t need a degree.
Also an engineer and I agree, being a monolithic lower, the KP15 solved the issue that previous "traditional pattern" polymer lowers had, where every break I saw was just under the extension tube opening
The only thing I don’t like about the lower is that the pivot/takedown holes are molded in. Having a knit line on the pivot vs cost of a 2nd operation of drill/reaming I just don’t see why you’d risk it. The holes are spaced 6.375” on a long thin walled part. You’re gonna be adjusting molding parameters frequently to keep that in spec. As you chase keeping 6.375 you’re giving up on cosmetic quality. From what I’ve seen on YT it already has some pretty visible flowmarks. As the shot count goes up flash, flow, and sink is going to get worse. Will I buy a couple at $100 each? Oh hell yeah.
I mean do you know WHY the CF handguards did not make it to Mk12 MOD1, or even SPR/A or SPR/B? It's not because it lacks mounting points. PRI had rail sockets from the getgo and they obviously work. It's not out of expense. No expense was spared on these SOCOM rifles. Hell the entire SCAR rifle design was entirely self funded by SOCOM. It's not because it lacked a top rail as previously mentioned. And it's not because it was less free floated. It was because they would delaminate over time when combining rough handling in the military with UV and temp exposure. The handling exposed the sheet cross section (which is normally protected by a thick topcoat) which caused issues and is why the PRI handguards were phased out relatively quickly. CF handguards have been available for literally a decade via Lancer, and you'd think 416 users, with a very front heavy 416, would use them extensively, particularly because the 416 in particular tends to heat up its handguard a lot due to its piston operation. They don't, and it's not because they don't know it exists. CF has been continuously tested because they WANT it to work. The LVAW currently wears a CF handguard; we'll see how long that lasts before it too gets binned for aluminum. The "heavier" KAC rail that replaced the PRI was also only 3 oz heavier.
@@DD-hz3ts yes carbon does have a shelflife but you also have to think that the mark 12 was made and probably conceived of in the late 90s early 2000s in the last 20 years carbon fiber has become so much more prevalent in the civilian world aerospace automotive just general consumer goods I think we’ve probably gotten a lot better at building parts made out of carbon fiber which I suppose is yet to be seen and we will figure out as these new modern carbon fiber parts age. But look at something like bicycles which even in mid ranged bikes carbon fiber components have become insanely prevalent and even from personal experience although anecdotal a lot of these parts often survive high speed crashes (20+mph) and are good for 10 or more years. You also have to remember, and I think you outlined this a bit in your comment, but it’s not really the carbon fiber itself that is the failing point it’s the method of lamination and whatever a given manufacturer uses as far as a substrate to hold sheets of carbon fiber together We should also keep in mind that aluminum hand guards are far from infallible or indestructible many times when a new technology is introduced people are rightfully skeptical, however, at least in the fire arms world people put such a great emphasis on durability, for a good reason, it seems as if people tend to often forget that the current systems are not indestructible either
The phonescope cam might not be the best quality ever but its soooooo cool being able to see the bullet's vapor trails. The other range-shooting youtubers that i subscribe to dont show thru-the-spotterscope footage so people like me who live outside the US and can't own guns don't know how bullet drop look like. Even little things like scope/iron sight peek at the beginning is damn cool for me
It's what I miss about not shooting 1000 yard matches. Used to see that spin off the 180BTHP going to the target, the more humid, the better the trail.
Indeed! This is the first time I've ever been able to track the bullet in flight in a video like this, a testament to both the video quality and the ambient conditions that make observation easier. Very cool to see!
@@Vespuchian You should check out the MAS 49/56 video, i think its the only other video with the camera stabilization and you can see some of the vapor trails on the longer shots its very cool.
I wanted a WWSD-inspired rifle, but, having to face a poor man’s budget, I just bought a stripped KP-15 and built my own from there. I received a slightly out-of-spec one (clumsy final milling of the integral buffer tube), and KE replaced it immediately. Never in my life have I experienced as honest, attentive, or responsive customer service for ANY manufacturer as I have from KE Arms. I’ve sent FB messages at all hours of the day and night and typically receive a direct response time measured in minutes or mere seconds. They are fanatics about this product and satisfying their customers. The KP-15 lower is truly engineered to be as strong or stronger than a standard aluminum stock/lower/grip configuration of separate constituent parts. Yes, its less customizable, but its also simpler. As the great Thomas Sowell might say, “there are no ‘solutions’-only trade-offs.” I wanted a full 20” barrel to get the most out of 5.56, so I bought a Brownells blem Retro barrel (with a defective gas block, which I was going to replace with a low profile one anyway). Added a slick-side upper, an mlok handguard, a 5X prism scope from PA for longer distances and a Holosun 403R offset @ 45° for close work. Even though both optics are not super-light (probably 24 oz total when mounts are included), the entire rifle with an empty mag is just a hair over 8 lbs. The WWSD project has been an inspiration. I am thankful to everyone who has taken part in this project.
that's the better route actually since you get more tuning and everything. the wwsd upper is pretty overpriced for what it is. Better to get a krieger barrel and build your ar around those parts while using the kp15 lower Also I recommend the 503 holosun over the 403 not because it's any more precise but because that reticle is so cool.
Lots of people offended by the use of Stoner’s name in the comments. What Would Stoner Do? Is a question InRange asked back in 2017. They answered it over a series of multiple videos. You can go find it, the history of this project is easily accessible. It was not intended at that time to be a commercial product. If you think this is completely out of line with what Stoner would have done you should go watch the Stoner tapes. He talks about meeting weight requirements, the use of non-traditional materials, the potential of plastics, how he hated the forward assist, and how the M16A2 was largely a step in the wrong direction. The WWSD was assembled with these design principles in mind. The InRange audience wanted a turn key solution vs having to source parts from all over; thus the partnership with Brownells and KE Arms. People offended by the name don’t understand the history of the project. And if they’re mad they should probably go rage out at Midway USA’s AR-Stoner brand too.
Oh god, the AR-Stoner stuff is just awful. And people seem to think Stoner just sat on his laurels and never made anything else. Hello, ever heard about the Stoner 63? Or all the Armalite guns that proceeded the 15, like the super light semi shotgun. Stoner went looking for the most advanced materials he could use from the aerospace industry to do things you just couldn't before. That it took 60 years for anyone to even try to do the same thing is actually freaking embarrassing.
@@jonathansmith7306 it may be playing off of that, but in terms of what they are offering, it looks more like the second coming of Olympic Arms. I would love to try out an SR15 at some point, but Knights doesn't seem to have much of a presence in the civilian market right now.
Man. It's interesting reading some of the hissing catfights in the comments here, and some people going well out of their way to claim the rifle isn't durable because it won't last for thirty years of continuous, eight-hours-a-day heavy combat in the worst environments human beings can still survive in. Yes, those sort of conditions would break anything not made out of forged steel, but I doubt those conditions are realistic, either. The rifle isn't meant as a spec-ops assault weapon or a full-auto suppression gun - it's a general purpose, handy, lightweight fighting rifle. It's not an eye of the storm supergun, it's just a really good GP carbine. if your use case is eight hours a day of heavy nonstop combat in the worst conditions humanity can survive in, then by all means get yourself some twenty-pound all-steel monstrosity...but the vast, vast, _vast_ majority of people will never subject their rifle to those conditions, so why use them as a bar to try and hold the rifle to?
The reason why "matching serial number" military gun are rare is because even old school steel and wood guns had parts replaced over time. The odds of finding a well used Garand, 1911, or M16 with all original parts is very low.
Those people owe it to themselves to watch Ian and Karl's "W.W.S.D.?" video series as they designed this rifle part by part from the ground up. Maybe they'll learn something, maybe their butt will hurt worse. Who knows? Someone who thinks that they know better than Ian McCollum given who he is and, also, who his father is... That's just pure ego. Also, Brownell's doesn't just flippantly decide to start producing something because a random TH-camr said it's good. Brownell's is a big name and has a reputation to think about.
@@nickaschenbecker9882 Hey what does his Dad do. I did some research and I know he is a historian etc.. but your comment suggested he had a lot of knowledge etc… can you help me with some more info please?
I agree. They also forget that this is a “practical accuracy” course, not “hell week for rifles” They are not being shot at by Russian conscripts or Taliban in a hostile combat conditions and I would never expect to see this rifle there as that was never what Ian and Co. Designed it for. Its a very capable and lightweight rifle based on a tried and true design. Its also very accurate. I would not pick up the rifle or go this direction personally (mainly the fixed stock and barrel length) but I respect the effort and knowledge that has gone into.
there's no issue with the lower and hand-guard choices for the WWSD2020; people are looking to just throw shade - just tell them that you think you saw some 45acp spent casings over on target lane 49.
@@buckaroobonsi555 Did you lower break? Have you seen one break? I think there's a warranty on the lowers if you manage to break it. There's also video from InRangeTV where they run over the rifle with a car, and the lower was fine afterwards.
@@buckaroobonsi555 As others have said - it is more durable than many of the aluminum lowers on the market. Yes, you might snap the buttstock off your M4, and then you replace it. It is highly unlikely that this will ever happen to the KP-15. If it does, you did something highly unusual. (this was tested at full auto after running it over with a truck, bashing it against a post like a baseball bat, and doing pull-ups on it). If it does break, buy a new one for $100. Lowers are cheap.
I just imagine the neighbors watching Henry and Josh in the garage calling the police and saying "theres 2 men worshipping a rifle and looking suspicious"
As a guy who has worked in socom weapons repair and logistics for damn near 10 years, I'll say this weapon is a great idea. Lighter rifles that are just as durable are a real asset for the end user. Why carry around a 12lb rifle with all the bells and whistles when you can get away with the same setup in 8-9lbs. Even just the lower on my URGI rig dropped off 3lbs almost
Man i'd say the biggest issue with SOF use is with the suppressor weight causing the barrel droop. My retro Gordon Carbine has no issue like that and I suspect the reason is two fold: 1, the free float barrel with no secondary support point, 2, the Gordon using a reflex suppressor, giving it two points of contact to stiffen the barrel up. Not saying that's a big issue for civvy use, but for SOF use, being unable to use a can is a no-go. It's also not that hard to solve with a fluted barrel to increase barrel stiffness.
@@9HoleReviews ho essay just transporting the hammer forged barrel that the URGI runs into that upper and lower I think would add just a hair more rigidity and would hopefully mitigate any major drop like you've noticed. Overall I think the design is extremely forward thinking and the weight savings in an operational environment would be very welcome, I remember when we fielded the RIS II rail and the rifles were bomb proof but heavier than hell, and more teams shifted to mk18s as a result. I'm all for lighter but capable, I think a few tweaks and this platform will be there
@@9HoleReviews I'd just put a heavier barrel on it. You're loosing so much weight with the handguard and the lower that the heaviest barrel you can put on it still won't make the complete rifle too heavy.
One of the biggest setbacks for Stoner was barrel tech. As Ian talks about a lot with this build, the A1 profile is a great profile for a general purpose combat rifle that's carried a hell of a lot more than it's shot. However, Stoner was limited by the times. Barrel tech has advanced a lot recent, as Faxon will attest to, so the "A1" is a properly viable rifle again.
I agree and disagree to a point they have had instances in Iraq and Afghanistan were troops get into longer fire fights the barrels were failing. I think we have to be careful thinking that all modern wars are going to be small skirmishes. Specially with smaller units going against bigger units like a platoon vs a whole group of insurgents. In battles a soldier is going to use a lot of ammunition sometimes in automatic fire. Maybe putting fins on the barrel or a heat sink barrel fins like a computer. I’m still not convinced with the carbine fiber it has high tensile strength but dose not do well with impact and abrasion. I will say that I was biased against this rifle but I’ve changed my mind it’s a really well thought out gun I would like to own one
@@chucknoris7648 If you're concerned about carbon fiber check out the Leap engine. They've never failed an impact or blade out test and they made from carbon fiber.
@@skromee _if_ they used a complete and proper WWSD rifle it _should_ be a Faxon Gunner Profile barrel, likely a 16" midlength if memory serves me correctly. Its a lightweight, .625" gas journal barrel with a 1:8 twist.
@@chucknoris7648 that is on full auto suppression fire. No rifle or carbine is an ultralight machine gun like the failures were used for. The 249 was designed for that.
@@Gorgondantess You could already see this happen in the substantial arc at 650yds. Going with a heavier projectile would mitigate this, but as 55gr is still the most prevalent on the civilian market as well as as close to the original round that Stoner designed the weapon for this was the right ammo to use imo.
That's partly true but it's actually transonic speed that affects accuracy roughly 1.2x or 1.3x the speed of sound or 1320fps or 1430fps depending on the bullets transonic performance
I agree that it would be interesting to see the accuracy degradation at longer ranges, but If you have had the chance to see interviews of Stoner, he was adamant that an infantry rifle only needed a 300m effective range. Bakelite N Waffles has a recording of Stoner arguing that the M16 should have had fixed sights, since adjustable sights would not be needed for its effective range.
I built a wwsd inspired rifle using the kp15 lower and love it, however I have had some of the kids and women in my family shoot it. I have noticed the that the lighter weight is such a confidence boost to them because they are not wrestling to hold the rifle up and steady as much and can hit targets down range easier.
I have go to the range alone if I want to use mine. If I take anyone else with me I need to bring something for me to shoot. I won't get it back until we go home. The smiles are worth it though.
My wwsd is my favorite rifle. While i personally have absolutely no problem with him, i suspect that some of the criticism of this rifle comes from people who simply don't like Karl from inrangeTV and therefore dislike what is, in my oppinion an excellent rifle for no real reason but personal bias against someone involved with the project.
I dislike Karls socialist/communist ideals and his supposed other religious views (those I have never seen substantiated), BUT I am very interested in the ideas incorporated and the approach taken with this rifle. Edited to say it was easy to verify Karls promoting and involvement in the Satanic Temple.
@@ETuss713 i dont agree with his political or religous ideals at all, but i dont let that get in the way of my opinion of the rifle, or the validity of the content on the inrange channel like the old west videos and mud tests
As someone who's a bit critical on the WWSD project, I'll leave my thoughts on it. I don't hold any of Karl's beliefs/opinions against the rifle, per say, but at the same time they do kinda seep into the rifle. Namely his disapproval of the forward assist and back up irons, to the point where the rifle has (and in the case of the handgaurd and buis, can't reliably accept) either. And that's not mentioning how the rifle, despite being built by KE, doesn't have KE's bolt and gas system that Stoner helped design, I could understand this being a thing before they started working with KE on the project, but now? I do however like the concept, and will likely build my own version of it sometime down the road, might even become my go to if I SBR my current rifle, which is leaning more towards a SHTF build rather than a general purpose build. Edit: KA is the one who did Stoner's improvements regarding gas system and bolt, not KE, my apologies for the mistake.
@@wolfgang_h3t what bolt and gas system are you referring to? I don’t see a bcg or gas system on ke arm’s shop that isnt young mfg. Thanks for the help
The primary piece to the rifle, and the part that started Karl and Ian on the project, was Faxon's new pencil barrel. Faxon claimed that through improved design and creation processes, they had mitigated the zero shift that happened under rapid fire with the original pencil barrels. It would be interesting to see if you could do this test after rapid firing the rifle (say 30-90 rounds fired as quickly as possible)
You can watch Ian and Karl do this when they were performing the initial analysis on the Faxon barrels during the initial development of the concept back in 2017. They go thru each component and test it in detail.
In addition, I can give you my own anecdotes on the issue. Mine works exactly as described. The group size expands somewhat, about an MOA or two, but the group center doesn’t move.
If the carbon fiber handguard is worrisome to you, KE Arms makes the Civil Defense rifle. Same lower minus ambi controls, same upper with an aluminum handguard. A few ounces heavier, but still very light. Quite a bit cheaper, too. Probably going to be my next AR.
I bought the CDR when KE could not get fiber hand guards. Then 6 months later the WWSD 2020 is available. I wish I held out for the WWSD. To upgrade CDR to its standard is much greater than the difference in the price.
I would highly recommend watching the KP-15 torture test by RECOILtv. While not the exact same configuration, the WWSD prototype in that video also uses a carbon fiber handguard which gave in only after being ran over by a truck (the rifle worked fine afterwards)
Random person on the internet: "Polymer lowers are fragile" Karl: *Runs over prototype polymer lower with a truck and keeps shooting it just to flex on the haters*
Right? Remember when PMags came out and people were shocked to find that they were radically more reliable and durable than the old aluminum pieces of junk?
I think the 'fragility' argument stems from situations where they were poorly designed by copying aluminum or steel designs and not factoring the material property differences leading to stress rises and subsequent failures.
We're loving ours so far. My wife is small, and the light weight really works to her advantage, as do the fully ambidextrous controls (she's profoundly sinister). We don't have access to a really long range, but out to the max we can get it's a nail driver, and very good for up close work.
Solid rifle, good trigger, good optic (presumably), good ammo, perfect weather conditions, I probably shouldn't be suprised it did that well. Also I agree a lot of the controversy is weird, it seems like part of it is people saying the rifle is bad at things it was never designed for, part is people taking the "What Would Stoner Do" name a little too literally instead of looking at the actual design goals, and the rest is people having way too strong opinions on the inclusion or lack of a forward assist. Also, it's a commerical product built with off-the-shelf parts; you're not being issued one and told to like it. If you need an IR laser to hold zero, you can build one with a nice metal handguard. If you think you need a forward assist and build a WWSD carbine with one, Ian probably won't show up to your house to convince you of the error of your ways. If you think the Faxon barrel is too light for your use case, nobody is likely to tell you the BCM ELW barrel is a wrong choice. Not sure what y'all did different on your spotting camera setup (possibly just good wind conditions) but it was cool to be able to see the vapor trail on camera. Looking forward to a review of the optic too if there's more to it than "it's like the PA 1-6 but it goes up to 8."
When he first mentioned controversy I just assumed it would be because it's a project made by "gun reviewers" in collaboration with a manufacturer. Comments proved me way wrong. People aren't bothered by the potential conflict of interest but instead they are bothered by completely irrelevant stuff like Karl's politics and what they imagine Ian's politics are (since I can't recall a single time Ian's revealed his own beliefs). As far as the polymer lower, pencil barrel and no forward assist. Guess what, it's a fucking AR, you can fix those if you like some aspects of the rifle but not others. If you don't like the whole package, nobody is making you buy it.
People are just salty because Karl believed in science instead of political rhetoric during a pandemic and because h thinks people with brown skin are also humans that should be armed.
@@jamesw9930 lmao, He's just a cringey, arrogant sperge. Many people were rubbed the wrong way by him even before he started making more overtly political posts. Oddly enough they only started after Ian wasn't on much anymore.
I have fired my friends WWSD2017 and just acquired WWSD2020 and I love it. I have fired a number of AR15 platforms over time and some are great and some are stock. Having one configured like an M4 and loaded up with all the accessories its a brick. I prefer the WWSD2020, yes you have to pay top dollar for it, but its adaptable , light and reliable. My friend has used and abused his WWSD2017 without any parts failure or breaks in the polymer for nearly 4 years. Its his home defense weapon, he uses it for hunting and 2 and 3 gun matches. People also forget this is not a gun aimed at military service and you don't need to worry about a grunt or marine finding a way to break it.
You see - I know I could break a collapsing stock doing soldier like things with it, we all know you could purposely bugger one with a good stamp against a kerb if needed or if you did something stupid like using it as a step. The buffer tube is indeed a weak point. I would feel far more confident abusing the WWSD stock though.
Seems like this is a rifle that doesn't work in Internet theory but does in practice. I ordered my WWSD lower just this week here in Europe (cannot get upper yet). And you're right, without getting a good understanding of velocity, you struggle at long range starting at about 500m or so.
I put a 20" FN upper on a KP15 lower specifically because the 16" barrel drops off early. Weighs 8lbs loaded with optics and 1MOA, it's a handy lightweight full potential rifle.
I handled one at a shop and passed because i have small hands and the grip is absolutely enormous. It was custom made for Ian and Karl and everyone else can pound sand.
I'm going to be honest, I had no idea that this rifle would be controversial and while I understand the concerns, I just don't understand why they are as vehemently opposed as they are. Maybe I'm the one missing some context, but I don't get it.
This rifle is, imho, one thought experimentation taking into consideration over 70 years of design refinement, material science, and quality improvements. As the saying goes, yesterday's luxury is today's expectation. 70 years ago a good barrel had 2.5-4.0 MOA and today you can off the shelf get something with 1.0 MOA or better, the majority of consumer products are made with polymers today, and optics went from being fragile to more durable than some rifles themselves. It would be really interesting to see this rifle go through a battery of tests akin to a military trial to see how far it can go.
While it’s not remotely as rigorous as a military trial, KE Arms did build at least one in full auto to greater stress the components. InRange TV has an interesting video of Karl, Ian Harrison of Recoil Magazine and Russell Phagan of KE Arms putting the gun through its paces.
Aye, and I don't think I remember hearing Ian or Karl say that this is the "ultimate AR-15", or the best that it could be (could be wrong, they might have). I'm sure both of them are well aware of the fact that apart from the lower everything on the gun is an off the shelf component, and while they went through a lot of testing and have good reasons for why they picked the components they did, improvements would be possible if they could get everything on the gun custom specced into a new pattern of rifle. This is a "the best rifle we could come up with using components that are on the market" kind of deal. The guys interviewed Jim Sullivan, and tried out some of his experimental improvements of the AR-15 (like the constant recoil system, not that that matters much in a non-automatic gun), they know that there's room for improvement on the gun if you could get to some of the more fundamental aspects of it.
The WWSD is, in short, what the M16A1 should have been if it could have been. Stoner was ahead of his time as far as material science goes, this is what the M16 deserved to be. The basic bitch, mass issued infantry rifle that's carried more than it's shot, and when it's shot it outperforms the shooter.
The only part of this rifle that I would expect to break/fail during rigorous testing is the handguard. The CF handguard is pretty strong in some ways, but weak in others. Where aluminum would deform, carbon fiber will snap,crack or splinter. An absurd example would be to try and drive a nail through the cf handguard. An aluminum handguard would deform at and around the the impact sight. The cf handguard would have a hole punched right through it and there's no telling how much material would go with it or how that would impact the integrity of the handguard as a whole. I would honestly love to see some of these tested, abused and generally beat to hell to see how well they stand up compared to conventional materials and designs. It would be good to be surprised if they hold up better than the critics think.
@@riley6475 helping send a bolt out of battery home is one of the best uses of it. People would know that if they just ran their guns instead of waiting for some video or article to come out
My opinion on polymer lowers or pistols is simply that I like how metal feels. Just like I prefer a hammer to a striker, it's a preference, there's nothing wrong with polymer or strikers. As for carbon fiber, race car suspensions, brakes, wheels, drive shafts and the list goes on of parts that take far more abuse daily than a handguard.
That intro is pure genius ... good work Ian. EDIT: Can you please NOT split the audio channels ? I heard Josh in the left and Henry in the right channel only during the range segment ... I started with only one earcup of the headphones over my ear since I needed to pay attention to something else as well ... it was weird not hearing one of you speak until I realized what's going on ...
I took an FNA4 20" upper (custom free floated national match) and paired it with a WWSD KP-15 lower, fully loaded with a red dot and flashlight its 8.4lbs. Took a nice buck with it a few weeks back, super lightweight and it's a 1MOA rifle.
@Tom Wing yes. It was in the WWSD2017 videos. They were looking at a standard rifle. Military uses the M4. They wanted compact and light. With current technology, 20" was unnecessary to shoot at combat distances.
I love the build of the WWSD2020 rifle as a modern version of the original concept of the stoner platform rifle (and I would LOVE to see a AR-10 version in the future). It fits all the criteria for the original rifle being light, reliable, and accurate. The “controversy” is, IMHO, the subject of mostly fudd-lore arguments and personal preferences. I really would love to see a close range comparison to a current M4 and see a more thorough breakdown of this rifle. As always, good shooting.
I've already asked, there will be no AR10 version produced. That is partially because of the lack of demand and the polymer can't handle that level of recoil (which is why they state no .450/.458/.50Beo with the KP15).
@@SuspiciousGanymede it’s not that it can’t take it. KE just won’t say it’s good to go because they haven’t tested those cartridges, and aren’t going to because it would be heinously expensive to do. There’s also no definitive “AR-10” pattern to make the gun to. You’d have to pick one of the existing patterns and just snub the aftermarket of all the others.
@@buckaroobonsi555 how many stocks and pistol grips have you damaged? I know people who’ve served in the marines who’ve been using m16’s that’ve been in service and seen combat for decades and still have their original parts minus a few springs, extractors, and rings. Those parts don’t break often outside bad manufacturing or actual destructive trauma, even when handled by marines. If it’ll survive being run over I’m sure it’ll survive being dropped into your safe.
People saying that a CARBON FIBER component "might be fragile" is absolutely hilarious. Such people must know *LITERALLY NOTHING* about carbon fiber. 5x stronger than steel 2x stiffer than steel 60% lighter than aluminum [as always, these aren't absolutes as there are obviously different alloys of aluminum & steel, as well as different weaves of CF & different resins - but these numbers are generally true, and NOT extreme examples] If people want to be ignant and turn down superior materials for inferior materials, so be it - you do you. We can debate the polymer lower I guess - but you BETTER be backing it up with specific examples of *KE polymer lower* failures, otherwise I just can't take these arguments seriously.
you should in all honesty qualify your metrics with *for the same weight. A CF handguard of the exact dimensions as a steel one is not remotely as strong. A steel handguard made to the same weight at the CF one, sure. It would almost be made of foil.
Well... there are certainly steels which are significantly stronger than carbon fiber when it comes to tensile strenght... but there are hughe differences in the strenght of different alloys... What ever... much more important is the fact that carbon fiber materials only achive their optimal tensile strenght when the load is applied in parallel to the direction of the fibers. You could argue that the load on a handguard could occour in almost any direction, especially if you drop the rifle or drop something ontoo it. Carbon composite material is in general much less impact resistant compared to metals, it can break in a situation in which a metal might get away with a little dent. That being said I'm quite confident that the carbon fiber handguard is good enough for most applications. Metal handguards which might be significantly more durable are much heavier.
I have the faxon CF handguard on a heavy DMR homebuild. It's not going to break, but it DOES flex some. You would get a major shift from loading a bipod. Of course I'm not gonna put lasers on a damn SAPR and give myself away, so it works for me.
@@RyTrapp0 Except they're not going outside of the context. They're explicitly addressing the way too often ignored context of material engineering. Hell, the first chunk of your initial comment can be treated as objectively false because those claims are highly nuanced and you can't achieve all three claims simultaneously, nor can it be interchanged with aluminum or steel without re-engineering the component.
Brilliantly entertaining as usual. Love the new range, editing, format, overlays, graphics and of course the excellent comedy, commentary and debrief. Thanks guys for a thoroughly enjoyable video. Cheers.
I have two of the lowers - they seem great so far (disappointed in the KE arms trigger - had some ftf with mil spec ammo). I don’t care for the CF hand guard, so I’ve built uppers that mostly follow the principles (no forward assist, light barrels, etc.) I have followed the WWSD project since the beginning and think the work that Karl and Ian have done is fantastic.
The original SLT trigger certainly can light-strike on hard primer ammo...their new "Rekluse" trigger has a much stronger hammer spring and works great with surplus ammo, albeit at an increased cost.
I played lacrosse with a carbon fiber stick. My entire team did (sponsor) and we only broke one in 2 years. Based on that alone I'm not too worried about the hand guard (Edit)Seems like people still see this after two months so here's some more details I can remember: the sticks were just the shafts, not the head portions of the sticks, those remained plastic as they needed to bend A lot. The only time we broke a stick was when one player crosschecked another when sprinting into him, middle of the stick to opponent's humerus, and the stick broke. The shafts were filled with some sort of very hard foam, it was difficult to make a mark with a finger nail, and the carbon fiber was about as thick as the WWSD handguard, maybe a bit thicker,but much smaller in diameter, obviously. People bring up some good points in the comments, I don't have any. This is just my experience with a similar product!
@@notaddmk18fsp_37 What force multipliers are you talking about? Grips and flashlights need no zero, and lasers are basically useless past a couple meters. I dont see the issue here, really.
Now that was some fine shooting lads! This is one the most current versions of the AR15 and probably one of the coolest rifles out there. I don't care what anyone says: This is truly an advancement of the original goal of the platform. There may be other AR15s that may be a tad or more durable but a lightweight combat ready firearm with effective accuracy at even 650Y is insane. It's not meant to be the be all end all in terms of durability, but honestly it's still reliable as we've seen and proven itself in practical combat shooting scenarios like Finnish Brutality. I may love my AKs and classic M16s, but a weapon like this should be the key to inspire all future platforms to follow suit, even if not mil-spec, or at least for current platforms to evolve to. Stoner would be proud of what was achieved with this.
Well said! Took the words right out of my mouth. I couldn't agree more, and Karl, Ian, and Russell, along with the respective companies involved have done a tremendous thing for the industry as a whole with the commercial introduction of the WWSD rifle, and it's sister rifle the Civil Defense Rifle. I remember watching the 2017 series with bated breath to see what was next in the project, and always found myself fascinated by what they were achieving, and wishing for a commercially produced version, and then ta-da lol! I feel as though there's a stigma with these AR polymer lowers though because of past iterations that just copied the aluminum versions. Which Ian and Karl have gone through great lengths to try and explain why those failed, and why these haven't (as far as I know), and what makes these different. At this point I'm kind of of the mind of "lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink" mentality.
As a back-packer, your conversation about weight is a common one I hear. There are a lot of people who make fun of weight-weinies and, granted, some people take it too far (with things like titanium sporks and ultra-fragile tarps). But in general, the lighter your kit is the more enjoyable it is to wear it. It is less weight to carry, so your muscle don't have to work as hard. This lets you go faster and longer, or go at the same pace more easily. I'm not saying light-weight trumps everything. Everything is a balance of comfort, durability, weight, and practicality. But there is no reason to not prioritize lightness if possible. You aren't tough because you can hump 30 pounds around when you COULD have been humping 15. It doesn't surprise me that this point is lost on firearms enthusiasts. There is a real machismo thing many suffer from.
Weight is often a confusing thing to discuss. What cartridge, what purpose, what context, etc. You'll often see people brag about ex military and packing weight around and blah blah. Great, how does lumping a 30 pound machine gun plus a mount and ammo relate to packing a 12lb precision rifle and being tasked with a 3-500 yard cold bore shot in the mountains?
Alot of the hate seems to come from not understanding the project to begin with. This hate is also coming from guys who max out their credit cards to buy blem KAC stripped lowers and price-inflated SR-15 uppers.
Ya the key is it’s a fixed stock I had one a while 7.62 and it’s fine I even homemade a ambi bolt release by cutting a slot in the receiver. Their strong and fine also cheap buy several their awsome
What do you mean by "meshed with stiffening parts?" The receivers don't have any inserts, other than the serial number plate, imbedded into it during the injection, if that's what it means. Are you referring to the molded structure itself, or the internals installed in the lower?
@@SuperVeeZee I believe he is talking about the honey comb style structure inside the stock and pistol grip etc Also everything is thicker and different dimensions, nothing like a regular receiver. I believe they are stronger than regular ar adjustable stock and pistol grip. If your ok with a fixed stock I believe this is vastly superior to a regular receiver and a lot lighter.
@@jefferyboring4410 I have three of them already built. Built a fourth, too, but got rid of that rifle. So I'm familiar with them. I'm a believer for sure. I don't miss the weight, and I don't miss the adjustable stock or replaceable grips. Big win in my book.
The only thing I'd change (and maybe that's already an option) Is to change the length of pull at least slightly with different end caps. Depending on what one is wearing it's nice to change that aspect. I wonder if that is possible with the buffer system. Overall the rifle is sound and I got no issues with well engineered and tested reinforced polymers with brains and there are even videos of the KP-15 production so I got no issue with that. There are AUGs out there from decades of use and their freaking firing mechanism is mostly polymer. I hope I can get one through brownell's europe next year...beer times get in the way.
Yeah, I wanted to “build” using KE arms polymer lower and a 11.5” lightweight barrel & handguard upper… the problem is that In the USA a fixed stock rifle with a
KE Arms teased a spacer accessory a while ago, but I haven’t heard anything about it recently. I forget the name, but there is a shop doing cut downs if one ever wants to go the other way. Neither option changes the buffer length.
I agree with Ian and Carl that the A1 is a good length for a mass issued rifle (and that the A2 was a big mistake because it was designed for the KD rifle range, not for combat) but I'm one of those those people that do actually use a shorter LOP. My adjustable stocks are always set ~1" to ~3/4" shorter than my C1 stock.
It cracks me up that people doubt the durability of the polymer lower. I know not everyone has watched In Range WWSD series. That being said, these lowers have been abused to the point of being ran over by a truck and they still worked flawlessly. A platform that is very lightweight, reliable, and accurate is remarkable. If only I had the funds for the complete WWSD rifle. My AR has the pencil barrel, lightweight handguard, and the holosun red dot. I couldn't be happier with how it's been shooting.
@ 4:20 Watching gravity pull those shots down at higher ranges is so cool. It really does help the shooter see whats happening to the round as it travels down range. I didnt realize the ballistic arc was so extreme on 5.56 but thats a wild swing at 650 yards.
The Ballistic arc is even more extreme using 55 or 62gr ammo. Even with 77 or 75 gr otm ammo after 500 it is a big fall off. However for 400 yards and in the AR15 is amazing.
But its like a laser out to 300 which is exactly how its meant to work. The Germans were not wrong when they number crunched all the contact reports from the first half of WW2 and realised that most rifle actions happen below that range.
I have a KE Arms KP15 lower with a DPMS upper on it that has a 16” pencil barrel with a 1-8 Vortex Strike Eagle mounted. The rifle is very light weight and ergonomically comfortable. I have mine zeroed with Frontier 5.56 62 gr. BTHP match. I have regularly run my rifle from 50 to 600+ yards on steel effortlessly just using the BDC reticle in the Strike Eagle. The rifle is very accurate and has been flawless in reliability.
@@baker90338 I bought the KE Arms KP-15 complete Mil spec lower, they are currently $199 from Brownells, i think I paid less for mine using a discount code when I bought mine when they first became available, (FYI the KE Arms Mil spec trigger group is one of the best Mil spec triggers I have shot, clean, no creep or grittiness, crisp break). I already had the DPMS upper, it has Magpul hand guards and I have a Vltor gunfighter charging handle in it, it is otherwise OEM as I bought it as a complete rifle years ago, the lower is being used on another rifle. I bought the 1-8 Vortex Strike Eagle on a great sale, about $365 including a one piece mount. All in all, my build is very reasonably priced.
@@stephaniemusick171 thanks for telling us about the trigger. I've been considering one of those since I don't currently have it in my practical budget to get the whole WWSD. Plus I want to put a lightweight 16 in 300 blackout barrel on one.
@@baker90338 I have load the old lyman 170 grain RNFP that was THE classic 30-30 bullet. And I can load it fairly stout over h110. I haven't put it on a chronograph but I know I'm well over the velocity range that is sort of the normal hunting velocity as that bullet was used in 3030. 300 blackout doesn't really have standardized feed ramp geometry figured out in the industry. Pretty much all of them just leave a standard m4 feed ramp which is wrong. So in current state of the industry if you want to run anything other than very pointy bullets kind of expect that you're going to address your feed ramps a little bit and possibly select magazines that point the nose upward a little bit more. It's pretty easy to do some moderate tweaks to GI mags to improve the reliability with blunt projectiles. I suspect the Magpul ones made for the m855 A1 would probably be a good pic too. Currently my favorite are the torkmags. Those lack a guide rib and have bigger capacity for overall size. The lack of guide rib means you don't have to consider whether a bullet profile will create a false shoulder as far as the magazine is concerned. Bottom line I'm getting at is that I am pretty well convinced any light 10-in plus 300 blackout AR pistol or carbine is going to be in the same ballpark of performance and a lot handier to carry and use than a classic 30-30. But a classic 30-30 is also a fun gun to have.
I think a lot of the "worry" people express is based on old data. Polymer USED to be brittle and fragile when it first came out compared to other materials, Carbon Fiber is the same, but people go by that first impression too often. They fail to account for increases in technology. Modern day Polymers and carbon fiber are tough, heat and cold resistant and just much better at surviving than their early predecessors. There is really nothing a normal shooter is going to put that gun through that will cause it to fail. You really have to abuse the crap out of your gun to do it, and even then I think it wouldn't be easy. And its not just firearm technology I find this attitude in. As a truck driver I run into this a lot on Autoshift trucks. First people call them automatics, but they are not, they are mechanically manual transmissions with a clutch, they are just shifted by computer instead of a lever. When they first started coming out, the computer was horrible, the basic transmission was good, but the computer support wasn't. They shifted poorly or late, downshifted to early, and the electronics broke....a lot. But the modern ones have for the most part fixed all those problems except maybe the longevity. They do last longer than they used to though. But they still get a lot of hate and people still bring up things they USED to do as proof that they suck. I guess its just human nature. First impressions are hard to throw off.
Okay, so after following Ian and Karl’s progression and after the two of you testing it out, I ordered one. I love it, and I thoroughly enjoy everything about it. I’ve put about 2K rounds through it and it’s pushing out my X95 from the, “One Rifle”. Very well put together and phenomenal in parts and equipment.
The Civil Defense rifle appeals to me more as an off the shelf item. Though what I really want to do is put the Brownells Retro Dissipator upper on the poly lower. Too bad they discontinued that upper.
My biggest concern is the cost. I'm a civvie, so weight isn't nearly as killer for me, and I'm already saving a lot of weight with the Faxon Gunner barrel. It's cool, but when I do my version I'm slapping a Midwest Industries Combat Rail on it and calling it a day.
Well, seeing as the WWSD will probably never be used to put "bad guys in the bad place" I guess that means it's controversial? My issue with the gun is entirely in the marketing. Ian and Karl market this gun as "what the US military would use if they weren't all dumb-dumbs" even though neither of them have any military/combat experience.
@@theodorehunter4765 the military would, and did, pick the KAC SR-16 E3 Which has actual longeveity upgrades in bolt geometry, bolt alloy, gas length, gas block, and holds zero properly on its handguard while weighing 6.4 lb unloaded at 14.5.
Wait..... People complained about the 'durability' weakness of the carbon fiber handguard? Top Fuel drag cars use a carbon fiber housing on their 1000 horsepower supercharger feeding their 11000 horsepower motors. Specifically for its durability. This complaint is extreme fuddery.
If you have a lighter rifle you can carry more of other things such as ammo, supplies, other equipment. Or if you want the rifle heavier you can run a D-60 and put a load of heavy scopes and attachments on the gun. It's main beauty is its balance, not just the weight. And this isn't meant to be military quality to serve all purposes, it is more of a civil defense rifle that the average citizen or militia could grab and go. Less about all the night vision and suppression capabilities. It's competition role is for 2G ACM, a practical competition more based around running, climbing, crawling, shooting from weird angles, more of a practical environment instead of sponsor covered clean-shirt competitons. Even just the lower itself is very interesting. There is a video on InRangeTV showing a very budget build with this lower with an upper and optic for approx $550. The lower definitely is a home-run, the rest of the rifle you could build it how you like, but the above package is the best optimized version. Though it would have been a 14.5 if it wasnt for the law and people complaining about pinned muzzles.
People hate on WWSD because they hate Karl’s personal beliefs. They cannot separate the merits of the rifle from IRTV. Which is hilarious since the broader 2A community styles itself as rugged “live and let live” individualists.
Honestly, I think the supposed hate on Karl is a bit overblown. As a public figure, he doesn't seem to draw any more ire than anyone else. And unless they are hiding their personal disdain for Karl, supposed complaints about the rifle just seem to be from typical "Fuddism".
That’s been one of the aggravating things I’ve learned about the community over time. Karl has never expressed anything other than being a 2A absolutist. He does more for the community than 99% of his haters lol
@@XxCrankyMoosexX No one hates Karl for his 2A beliefs. It's his proggy beliefs... Like believing whites genocided Natives, even though theyre still here today... Like thinking Covid is the worst thing since the black plague and excoriating 'anti-maskers.' It's his attraction to Satanism and being an autistic edgelord... Karl's a douche. Ian's cool.
I built my own WWSD rifle. Because I wanted the FDE lower, so I didn’t get all the ambi stuff except the selector. I did get the Faxon carbon fiber handguard, which I painted a sort of camo pattern. Painting the carbon fiber using Brownell’s Aluma-Hyde worked much better than I expected. I also used the Faxon pencil barrel and an FDE Aero Precision upper that also didn’t have the sniper button. Using a Sig Romeo red dot and Juliet 4x magnifier. I absolutely love it. I may build another one black. All the “controversy” surrounding the WWSD rifle is totally unfounded. The hardest aspect for me to embrace was no backup iron sights…. And I finally had a chance to shoot it at 200 yards. I could barely see the 4” steel plate. But ringing it was easy.
I absolutely love mine. It is my hunting/ranch rifle now, a tool and not a showpiece. I treat it no more gingerly than any other rifle that has filled that role. There is no issue with the polymer lower, it's plenty strong. The hand guard does have a bit of flex when moving quickly and driving the rifle with force, but it has not effected my ability to make hits or the practical accuracy of the rifle thus far in my experience. It is lightweight and handy, and frankly every time I pick it up I feel a bit of giddy excitement. Only one other firearm in my life has done that, the V7 14.5" Enlightened AR, which is more than twice the price of the WWSD. This rifle may have started as a thought experiment, but it is now a fantastic reality.
I built this exact gun, minus the brake. Awesome to see what it's capable of, and that the PA SLx with the ACSS Griffin Mil works very well at extended ranges.
Re: IR laser mounting, if that's indeed a requirement, there's no reason a carbon fiber handguard couldn't incorporate an aluminum picatinny rail at the 12:00, either bolted on semi-permanently or with the handguard formed around it during manufacture. I think an interesting idea would be with forged composites. Forging an entire carbon fiber handguard with a pic rail on top and MLOK slots on the other sides would preserve strength and zero retention where it's needed while maintaining the carbon fiber benefits of light weight and thermal insulation.
which that's literally what PRI does with their carbon fiber mk12 handguard and Crane then dropped the top swan sleeve as a continuous rail but for the PVS30 clip on, but then typically IR units are mounted on the 3 o'clock for those for scope clearance. I think it's the implementation philosophy of "if 90% of your consumer base will not use IR on it, then why include the dead weight?"
@@9HoleReviews This being a carbine and not a precision rifle, I would be inclined to think that most users would still be mounting the IR device at the 12. Agree that the PRI handguard did this concept originally; I suppose what I have in mind is a modernized version of that since there are now aluminum handguards lighter than the PRI. I have no objections to the WWSD2020 having no top rail; as I mentioned in your IG post, intended purpose (and in this case being a commercial product, intended customer base) is paramount when discussing what something should or should not have.
@@9HoleReviews since it's also possible for the handguard to be switched to a normal AR handguard, it's not really worth adding the extra weight for the people who will never use it. Even if the handguard is switched out, the rifle will still be lighter weight compared to other rifles thanks to the pencil barrel and the polymer lower.
@@9HoleReviews Offering a "properly factory installed" (carefully fit and permanently affixed so it retains zero) 12 o'clock Picatinny rail as an option (which some companies do) just makes sense. After all, in addition to the handful of folks who actually use quality lasers, you have far more people like me who disagree with Karl and Ian about the utility and value of BUIS on a lightweight carbine (especially one with a co-witnessed mini RDS) set up for what Cooper used to call "serious social purposes". The couple of ounces that adds are more than offset by having an immediate backup available of your RDS "fails" (which will probably be due to user error, frankly, like forgetting to turn it on, forgetting to change the battery before the New Years Eve party starts, or letting the battery cap get a little loose without noticing and allowing the battery to be jostled out of contact). I have even found that a fixed front post, coupled with an absolute co-witness mini RDS that isn't even on still provides much better than Minute of Ribcage at close ranges, using the RDS tube as a giant ghost ring. Flipping up the folding rear gives me equal or better sighting apparatus than I had on my M16, even if the RDS is still in place but not working. (I also find a fixed front BUIS guards the switch on a low profile 12 o'clock WML set just in front of the sight, allowing me to hit it naturally with my support hand without wires... of course the WML would be just fine mounted to an MLok slot, but since they tend to have built in Picatinny mounts anyway...) So, having a professionally installed and stable 1913 rail at 12 o'clock on my carbon FF tube - that still weighs less than any equally serviceable aluminum handguard* is one of those options I'd willingly pay for as a "factory upgrade". . * Not a huge fan of the super lightweight aluminum tubes - you not only have the heat transfer of aluminum, but they tend to have such large gaps between the gossamer thin aluminum struts that burning your fingers because they slipped though a hole is a real possibility. And once you start adding heat resistant tube covers for protection, you start to lose the advantages of such an open latticework aluminum tube - weight goes up surprisingly fast while airflow around the barrel gets choked off. MLok riddled carbon fiber handguards don't suffer from either of those problems to any noticeable degree.
@@geodkyt 99% of civilians shooters don't own night vision and don't mount lasers on their guns. It's a struggle to get people to adopt weapon lights for their rifles/pistols and those are a much lower price point. The WWSD and Civil Defense rifles weren't designed for the military, they were designed for civilians who wanted a lighter weight AR15 platform that could flex into various roles. Therefore infrared optics, night vision and lasers, were really a consideration for this design.
Impressive performance and a clear demonstration of what is possible with modern tech. To those concerned about durability, both polymer and carbon fiber properly engineered and manufactured can be incredibly tough and durable. I specifically call out toughness as that is the opposite of brittleness. Both CF and modern polymers are composite materials that can handle compressive and tensile loads plus repeated impacts without cracking. Think about the rapid, cyclical stresses to which the tub chassis of an F1 car is subjected. They can actually handle more than their tube frame counterparts both in absolute loading and acute stresses while weighing significantly less. The tradeoff is cost due to complexity of engineering and manufacturing. So the real question with any modern piece of tech is "How much are you willing to pay?" to get the performance you want.
People in every aspect of life, are afraid and often reluctant to change. I remember when I purchased my Gen1 Glock 17 in 1986...People laughed at me. They claimed that the "plastic gun" would explode in my face...Well we all know how that worked out. I'm glad to see that someone was finally able to bring a successful polymer lower unit for the AR 15, as Colt intended to back in the late 60's. Great video!
For some background, I have a chronic disability. There's some videos on my channel that verify that. As such, I don't have much strength and endurance as the average person would. I originally had a GWOT/MGS4 M4 build. It was heavy and very impractical for me. It was then, that I saw the WWSD. I was interested in the concept. I understand the trade-offs the WWSD brings, but knowing my lifestyle, I would never be able to do such demanding physical activities. I need something lightweight but still perform reasonably well. I think the WWSD is fine addition to the AR15 platform. My only complaint is the length of pull but it's manageable nonetheless. Now, I have similar WWSD carbine build. Not exactly a copy but there's a lot of design elements I took from it and worked with whatever I had from my previous build.
did you try looking at the ati omni hybrid maxx ar15? its got a polymer upper and lower, and is only 5.65 lbs with the heavy m4 stock, and delta ring setup. could be super light if you wanted it to.
I've followed the project for a long time and really love it. Although I have not bought one. The comments about fragile handguards probably have not seen well used M16A1/SP1 handguards after much use--they tend to look like hillbilly teeth with pieces broken out. I think a lot of people buy into the idea that military or military-inspired weapons are supposed to be indestructible. They need to buy a CMP rifle to realize that isn't the case. Anyhow, my fav carbine is a Colt law enforcement trade in with a pencil barrel and my least favorite is a Colt AR15A4 because there is just such a huge difference in weight.
2 ปีที่แล้ว +1
Thank you for edding meters to the range information. Helps a lot for a simpel minded german.
As a person of shorter stature 1.7m (5’6” to you Seppos ), I personally would not want a single piece lower. I have rebuilt my CZ455 into a chassis system here in Tasmania. I have put a MagPul grip, ‘buffer tube’ and stock on it, and run it at it’s shortest stock length. While I feel that the WWSD upper is nearly perfect, it is nearly perfect for a very specific set of circumstances. There is no such thing as a ‘Universal Firearm’. The WWSD makes a brilliant mid to long range target and range gun, but I feel loses out as a potential combat weapon, as evidenced by the move towards shorter barrels for most current military operations. I think the WWSD is, as it’s name suggests, purely an exercise, but, I feel Stoner himself would be aware of the changes in modern conflict to closer engagements, urban warfare, CQB and Counter Insurgency action, and would not necessarily do WWSD. By the way, I wish Gun Jesus (Praised Be HIS Name) could click his fingers to help out our weather.
The barrel length on the retail guns is dictated by US laws on short barrel rifles. You could swap out for a shorter or heavier barrel easily enough. I think the 16" gives good ballistics at longer ranges, which can be important. I can't speak to the length of pull.
I got kp15 lower. I'm 5'4" and honestly I was worried about the length of the stock (A1 length fyi). Turns out it works fine and I feel no significant difference to my other AR running the stock one position out. That's my experience. Ymmv
New range, awesome gun, great performance, awesome footage with even being able to see bullet trails. This is amazing, I was waiting for a new Practical accuracy video. Bless the Gun Jesus. It's interesting to see that this set-up brought controversial comments. In my opinion it's just a very solid very well thought build and this... is totally fine. It feels like the expectation of this build is set somewhere... I don't even know where. Since this rifle seems to perform as intended and that's it. Can't wait to see Josh run it B)
This is my subjective opinion. The controversy comes from Traditionalists. I believe that they are under the impression that the current AR15 design base was the end all be all AR15, the peak of what Stoner would have built. I on the other hand see Stoner as someone who set goals and use the latest technology to achieve them. This is something I think they don't realize, Stoner tried to make the WWSD2020 and failed because of, at the time, technology limitations.
I wouldn't call myself a traditionalist. I think there are improvements to be made with the AR-15, especially what the military uses. I just don't think the WWSD is an "improvement".
I love mine. It's an excellent rifle. Everybody involved has such a massive amount of hands on experience, if you hate it, you haven't handled or shot one.
My WWSD 2020 just came in this week. Very excited to get to the range in a couple of days to see how it performs! And yes, even knowing it was going to be light, I was shocked how light it was. Great review, guys!
Dude, that succession of hits is quite amazing, really tight groups really quick, I wonder how Ian and Karl will work with the AK platform, saw they had a similar project WWKD, hope they keep going, like rethink the AR-18, the Stoner-63 rifle, maybe even a what would Garand do...
I finally got mine put together and took it to 3 Gun last month. I handed it to the RO at one point and he exclaimed "What is this thing, a Super Soaker?" He was so surprised by how light it was that it caught him off guard.
Incredible shooting! I had some of my friends scoff at the kp15 lower being polymer. I forget who did the video but there's a guy on yt who shot the crap out of his WWSD, did pull-ups and push ups off of it then ran it over with a truck. The handguard did flatten but the gun shot fine after.
7:55 - Just a bunch of keyboard warriors parroting about old misconceptions. Some people are also missing the point of the WWSD rifle: Ian stated it was meant more as making a light AR but with good quality and durability not a tanky indestructable machine gun
Exactly. The whole point of the WWSD 2020 project was to see what could be done to bring Eugene Stoner’s original vision for the AR-15 using the latest materials and manufacturing technologies.
Yep. Which is why I'm a bit puzzled when I see people commenting that they'd rather stick with their aluminium lower, 12lb bomemoths with non free floated quad rails, rather than pay the same for a very lightweight and accurate rifle. But I don't think people like that understand the purpose of the WWSD project.
@@the7observer I agree with a lot of what buckaroobonsi555 said, just not the tone of it. The issue is that by calling it "What Would Stoner Do" they are implying that a guy who was tasked with designing a military weapon would build the WWSD for a military application. Shit breaks in the military. There's the old joke about locking a Marine in a padded cell with two bowling balls. An hour later on ball is mission and the other is broken. It's a lot easier to replace a stock or a grip than to order an entire new lower for your gun. There is also the issue that the military switched from a fixed stock to an adjustable one, because not every enlisted person has the same length arms. I bought an AR that both me an my wife could use. With the stock fully extended, it's a bit short for me, but with it fully collapsed, it's a bit long for my wife. BUIS are on modern rifles for a reason. Their weight in negligible and, as stated earlier, shit breaks. If Ian or Karl's optic goes down, they lose the match. Having BUISs for them doesn't help that. If a soldier's optic breaks, they can (hopefully) get to cover, rip it off, and use their irons. As mentioned in the video, a monolithic top rail is basically standard anymore, as 99% of the stuff that gets mounted there is used for accuracy. I'd take an extra pound of weight just to know that my POI isn't going to shift weirdly if I have to prop my gun up on a rock. Ian and Karl rarely shoot past a few hundred yards, and they are usually shooting an man sized plates at that range. Soliders are shooting at dudes hiding behind cars/walls/etc. poking half their head out. They need that accuracy. That's basically my only complaint on the fore-end, though. I'm not going to say there isn't stuff wrong with the modern M4s. Most of that is due to the military not wanting to spend a bunch of money to tweak some stuff that "works". The WWSD, isn't an improvement. It's just different. I also don't like the people comparing the WWSD rifle to the M4 like people compare the M14 to the M16. The M16 was a big deal. The WWSD is just a light AR-15.
There's that "vintage" polymer rifle, too. The Green Tupperware rifle; the StG 77 / Steyr AUG. Plastic stock, plastic hammer-pack, plastic mags; in SERVICE in the late 1970s. I'm guessing the Irish army had reasons to adopt it other than it wasn't British and it was GREEN.
I grabbed a WWSD rifle… and really see it as the next step in AR15 development. I grab it first before my HK, KAC, Geissele, or BCM AR15 now for the range. Hardest thing is thinking which optic to pair it with.
Great review on the accuracy of this concept. After watching Ian’s design and build video I was excited to see a 9 hole review. Such a shame we can’t own semiautomatic in the U.K.
I do like the KP-15 polymer lower receivers and I personally own a few of them. That said, I have also personally broken the buttstock completely off of a KP-15 lower; KE Arms warrantied the lower and I have no animosity with the company or the KP-15 lowers. The KP-15 lower that I broke happened while out on a hunt with an impact to the side of the buttstock. It’s interesting to me how so many people believe that the KP-15 is somehow unbreakable; reminds me of the unsinkable Titanic. I too am an Engineer and have an emphasis in polymers, composites, and nanotechnologies, I work in the polymer industry, and as a result I feel I have a rather good understanding of polymers and their limitations. That’s said also, I still feel the KP-15 is very well designed and I would not hesitate to continue to use mine, would purchase more KP-15 or KP-9 lowers in the future, but understand they are indeed breakable.
What I like best about this rifle is that it improves all of the good qualities of the AR & keeps me shooting 556/223, which keeps my training costs down. There are lots of new calibers available for AR's, which is great, but when things get expensive, I won't be training as much. Light, durable, accurate, & powerful enough to do the job. I have never seen someone take a carbine to 650 yds. After being a Paratrooper and a recent hunt in the mountains, I appreciate a light, handy rifle. I think Eugene Stoner would love what you guys did with his design. Great video!
You forgot the original plastic fantastic gun, the Steyr AUG. If that can stand up to Aussie squaddies then polymer is fine. Is this too light and too fragile for a military assuming 10 year high intensity combat? Maybe Is this too light and fragile for any type of civilian shooting? Nope. I expect the people saying this is too fragile probably think the Colt 1911 is still the best handgun and the M14 was the equal of the FAL/G3
Is any military rifle out there going to go through 10 years of combat heavy service with out any problems or repairs? I don't think so and it's not as though the wwsd2020 is something wierd and new, it's an AR15, a lego gun.
@Random Pickle the FAL was far superior in every way to the M14. there is a reason the m14 is the shortest serving service rifle and the FAL is considered the arm of freedom
@Random Pickle like I said before the FAL is by far superior and there is a reason the M14 was the shortest serving military service rifle. And the weight is identical were are you getting the FAL weighed more and the FAL weights less 8.9 lbs compared to the M14 9.2 so again how are you getting the FAL Was heavier I don’t think you have any clue what you are taking about
Bought one of the kp15 lowers on a whim, it's great. Strong, stiff, light. The flared mag well is a big plus too. Might have to pick up a WWSD when budget allows.
@@frigglebiscuit7484 Don't get me wrong, there are even lighter ARs out there, but most are heavily compromised with lightened bolt carriers, skeletonized parts, etc. The balance and reliability of the WWSD is what makes it fairly special.
![Sniper Krink [AKs74u] 4x ACOG to 500yds: Practical Accuracy | Tarkov gamer's dream IRL](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kxDpv7xaWWg/mqdefault.jpg)
![Sniper Krink [AKs74u] 4x ACOG to 500yds: Practical Accuracy | Tarkov gamer's dream IRL](/img/tr.png)
![M16A2 to 500yds: Practical Accuracy ...was Eugene Stoner wrong? [ USMC experiences in Iraq ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/sqOiTXmi1QU/mqdefault.jpg)
![🥇 AK105 [Russian Spetsnaz - Spec Ops Rifle] to 650yds: Practical Accuracy](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-4QfLaDQe9o/mqdefault.jpg)
![🥇[.338 Lapua Mag] Desert Tech SRS M2 to 1,000yds: Practical Accuracy](/img/n.gif)
Some may think this is a "race gun". Luckily we have a USPSA Grand Master class shooter (Josh, who holds multiple state titles) to comment on this:
One interesting comment we didn't address in the video that we've seen repeated several times is that this is just a take on a 'race gun'. Since this rifle has non-adjustable gas and a standard carrier group (not lightened), we're extremely hard pressed to see how this fits the race-gun theme, since those elements are critically important to the tuning which most serious competitors are looking for. Take into consideration that a fair number of comp-shooters aren't looking to run ultra-light rifles since 'some' weight is still important for recoil mitigation, and the WWSD rifle really just doesn't fit into that box as far as we can tell (coming from someone who has spent years tuning and playing with race guns).
***EDIT***
Upon double checking, this is 6lbs8oz, so 6.5lbs, not the previously stated 6.8lbs
I've seen multiple "race gun" comments on your IG post. I suspect most if not all of those comments come from people who don't compete. I would posit that to many, "This gun has features / properties I am unaccustomed to or do not understand" = "This is a race gun"
I think that people see carbon fiber and think competition gun.
I have my own reservations about the carbon fiber handguard, because I own one myself.
I’m not sure how the 601s furniture has changed over its design life, it may very well be similarly fragile/strong.
@@JohnBrowningsGhost The polymer lower probably adds to that image as well. I have no experience with the Faxon or KE CF handguards, but I have had a Lancer handguard for almost 10 years. It's extremely stiff, albeit actually heavier than many aluminum handguards today.
Like with aluminum, carbon fiber can come in varying degrees of thickness and strength. I'm certain that it's entirely possible to design a CF handguard that's more rugged than the Geissele and Daniel Defense units that are being fielded today. Whether it would be cost effective however is another matter
I guess some people are closed minded and stick to what they "Know", like the M14 and the 1911 being the only "Real Guns", etc. Those folks are out there in the world, usually sitting around the cracker barrel and personally, I don't have time to swap spit with them.
I like the concept of the light weight rifle and I appreciate what Ian, Karl and Russel at KE Arms have put together in the WWSD and the Civil Defense Rifles. For most folks, these are going to be the ideal "Do Everything" rifle, from home, defense, to "Run and Gun" and practical shooting out to 600 meters or so. I especially like the Carbon Fiber handguard and wish one was made for the BREN 2 Rifles, as the aluminum handguards get really hot. My G36K has a newer polymer handguard with heat shields and its more fun to shoot a lot of rounds, as I don't need to glove-up, like I do with the BREN 2.
Glad you chose the SLx8 as that's what I run on my 14.7" BREN 2 and I love it. Mine has the Raptor Reticle and I opted for the Scalar Works mount and its turned out to be an awesome set-up.
Keep up the great work, Thanks.
Waaaa it looks different from a block 2 m4 so it’s a race gun waaaaa
I love that Ian has fully embraced his position as gun Jesus.
As for told.
Todd is an Apostle......LOL
The cartooning of him "Feeling the French" on the cover pic for the MAS 45/56 practical accuracy test made me all warm & fuzzy inside. On a totally unrelated and left field note, I ALSO think of Doc Holiday and Buffalo Bill every time I'm graced with the presence of that epic mustache😆. He was made for the career path he chose. No question.
Earned
Dude, have you seen? If not this is gonna make your day. th-cam.com/video/sI3x30iamHc/w-d-xo.html
As an engineer, the people who say "it's not going to work" about polymer and carbon fiber gun parts, simply because they're polymer or carbon fiber don't understand even the simplest aspects of engineering.
Very much this. Especially carbon fiber. It's one of the stiffest and strongest easily available materials for manufacturing. It makes total sense to use it for things like stocks, fore-ends, grips etc. Those are areas you can easily save weight while maintaining strength. Even an AR15 lower receiver could be reasonably made of carbon fiber thanks to minimal high impact moving parts being housed within it. Polymers have also progressed lightyears since first being implemented. People will gladly trust would furniture over polymer when high quality polymer is much lighter and much harder wearing. There's just a lot of minds stuck in 40s-60s gun design. Heavy is great for potential accuracy and volume of fire, but for your average soldier that is not their concern.
How do you know if someone is an engineer? Don't worry, they'll tell you.
@@SDLAX46 lol we're kinda like vegans and assholes in that way
The materials have arrived in aerospace engineering decades ago and sports cars have the whole bodywork made from the stuff. People talking smack about carbon fiber no nothing about material science.
The Fudds that swear by 1911's always shit on Glock for being plastic.
the WWSD basically asks us to come to the table with a fresh mind, willing to reconsider dogmas in the modern tactical carbine community. the polymer material is light and strong, the colapsible stock is exchanged for a more rugged fixed stock, and the barrel is as light as they come. basically every feature has been chosen for lightness without compromising the structural integrity. the only significant compromise is barrel weight vs volume of fire. you cant empty tens of mags with no problem, but if you consider real combat scenarios you dont often fire that much. realistic combat is mostly slow with sporadic action.
And FWIW modern pencil barrels are absolutely miles better than older ones, even the ones from the 90s, as have been shown in some of the tests Ian & Karl published during their original WWSD 2017 project, where they weren't looking into making a production gun, more just a parts list of what was available at the time.
depends on who is using the rifle. SOCOM wanted a heavier barrel for a reason
@@moonasha socom doesent always plan on hucking their kit around for a month or two, and can be pretty damn sure where they are going they will need all the volume of fire they can get. special operations needs are not the same as your needs, or even the needs of an average soldier
No, it is a blatant cash grab by a satanist grifter
@@yeedbottomtext7563 sir this is not the soup kitchen, and no you cant have any change.
I don’t get the problem these. I’m an engineer and have done quite a bit of studying and tinkering with polymer lower receivers if you spend any time researching them looking into the 3-D printing forums etc. the only real point of failure on these is the buffer tower which is already mitigated in the KP 15 by it being a monolithic a2 style lower receiver which greatly increases the cross-sectional density of the buffer tower in layman‘s terms it’s a lot beefier. Good carbon fiber/glass fiber reinforced nylon has a tensile strength around 200 give or take megapascals which is in the ballpark of 6061 aluminum which is common for plenty of lower receivers but that’s also not to mention that an aluminum lower receiver will have a lower cross-section buffer tower so all things considered they may as well be equal.
TLDR if you think polymer = bad you’re a fudd and don’t know basic material properties anyone can Google this you don’t need a degree.
See, the problem is that you're an engineer LOL
Also an engineer and I agree, being a monolithic lower, the KP15 solved the issue that previous "traditional pattern" polymer lowers had, where every break I saw was just under the extension tube opening
The only thing I don’t like about the lower is that the pivot/takedown holes are molded in. Having a knit line on the pivot vs cost of a 2nd operation of drill/reaming I just don’t see why you’d risk it.
The holes are spaced 6.375” on a long thin walled part. You’re gonna be adjusting molding parameters frequently to keep that in spec.
As you chase keeping 6.375 you’re giving up on cosmetic quality. From what I’ve seen on YT it already has some pretty visible flowmarks. As the shot count goes up flash, flow, and sink is going to get worse.
Will I buy a couple at $100 each? Oh hell yeah.
I mean do you know WHY the CF handguards did not make it to Mk12 MOD1, or even SPR/A or SPR/B?
It's not because it lacks mounting points. PRI had rail sockets from the getgo and they obviously work.
It's not out of expense. No expense was spared on these SOCOM rifles. Hell the entire SCAR rifle design was entirely self funded by SOCOM.
It's not because it lacked a top rail as previously mentioned.
And it's not because it was less free floated.
It was because they would delaminate over time when combining rough handling in the military with UV and temp exposure. The handling exposed the sheet cross section (which is normally protected by a thick topcoat) which caused issues and is why the PRI handguards were phased out relatively quickly. CF handguards have been available for literally a decade via Lancer, and you'd think 416 users, with a very front heavy 416, would use them extensively, particularly because the 416 in particular tends to heat up its handguard a lot due to its piston operation. They don't, and it's not because they don't know it exists. CF has been continuously tested because they WANT it to work. The LVAW currently wears a CF handguard; we'll see how long that lasts before it too gets binned for aluminum.
The "heavier" KAC rail that replaced the PRI was also only 3 oz heavier.
@@DD-hz3ts yes carbon does have a shelflife but you also have to think that the mark 12 was made and probably conceived of in the late 90s early 2000s in the last 20 years carbon fiber has become so much more prevalent in the civilian world aerospace automotive just general consumer goods I think we’ve probably gotten a lot better at building parts made out of carbon fiber which I suppose is yet to be seen and we will figure out as these new modern carbon fiber parts age.
But look at something like bicycles which even in mid ranged bikes carbon fiber components have become insanely prevalent and even from personal experience although anecdotal a lot of these parts often survive high speed crashes (20+mph) and are good for 10 or more years.
You also have to remember, and I think you outlined this a bit in your comment, but it’s not really the carbon fiber itself that is the failing point it’s the method of lamination and whatever a given manufacturer uses as far as a substrate to hold sheets of carbon fiber together
We should also keep in mind that aluminum hand guards are far from infallible or indestructible many times when a new technology is introduced people are rightfully skeptical, however, at least in the fire arms world people put such a great emphasis on durability, for a good reason, it seems as if people tend to often forget that the current systems are not indestructible either
The phonescope cam might not be the best quality ever but its soooooo cool being able to see the bullet's vapor trails. The other range-shooting youtubers that i subscribe to dont show thru-the-spotterscope footage so people like me who live outside the US and can't own guns don't know how bullet drop look like. Even little things like scope/iron sight peek at the beginning is damn cool for me
Yea that was some awesome vapor trails. 😳
It's what I miss about not shooting 1000 yard matches. Used to see that spin off the 180BTHP going to the target, the more humid, the better the trail.
Indeed! This is the first time I've ever been able to track the bullet in flight in a video like this, a testament to both the video quality and the ambient conditions that make observation easier.
Very cool to see!
Come visit Arizona and shoot some rifles and machine guns my dude
@@Vespuchian You should check out the MAS 49/56 video, i think its the only other video with the camera stabilization and you can see some of the vapor trails on the longer shots its very cool.
I wanted a WWSD-inspired rifle, but, having to face a poor man’s budget, I just bought a stripped KP-15 and built my own from there. I received a slightly out-of-spec one (clumsy final milling of the integral buffer tube), and KE replaced it immediately. Never in my life have I experienced as honest, attentive, or responsive customer service for ANY manufacturer as I have from KE Arms. I’ve sent FB messages at all hours of the day and night and typically receive a direct response time measured in minutes or mere seconds. They are fanatics about this product and satisfying their customers.
The KP-15 lower is truly engineered to be as strong or stronger than a standard aluminum stock/lower/grip configuration of separate constituent parts. Yes, its less customizable, but its also simpler.
As the great Thomas Sowell might say, “there are no ‘solutions’-only trade-offs.”
I wanted a full 20” barrel to get the most out of 5.56, so I bought a Brownells blem Retro barrel (with a defective gas block, which I was going to replace with a low profile one anyway). Added a slick-side upper, an mlok handguard, a 5X prism scope from PA for longer distances and a Holosun 403R offset @ 45° for close work. Even though both optics are not super-light (probably 24 oz total when mounts are included), the entire rifle with an empty mag is just a hair over 8 lbs.
The WWSD project has been an inspiration. I am thankful to everyone who has taken part in this project.
There's nothing wrong with that IMO. I think the entire project is a very interesting through project more than anything.
Extra points for Thomas Sowell reference
@@nickbeckwith6211 His face should be the fifth one carved on Mt. Rushmore. Sowell is a national treasure.
@@edwardx.winston5744 based
that's the better route actually since you get more tuning and everything. the wwsd upper is pretty overpriced for what it is.
Better to get a krieger barrel and build your ar around those parts while using the kp15 lower
Also I recommend the 503 holosun over the 403 not because it's any more precise but because that reticle is so cool.
Lots of people offended by the use of Stoner’s name in the comments.
What Would Stoner Do? Is a question InRange asked back in 2017. They answered it over a series of multiple videos. You can go find it, the history of this project is easily accessible. It was not intended at that time to be a commercial product.
If you think this is completely out of line with what Stoner would have done you should go watch the Stoner tapes. He talks about meeting weight requirements, the use of non-traditional materials, the potential of plastics, how he hated the forward assist, and how the M16A2 was largely a step in the wrong direction. The WWSD was assembled with these design principles in mind.
The InRange audience wanted a turn key solution vs having to source parts from all over; thus the partnership with Brownells and KE Arms.
People offended by the name don’t understand the history of the project. And if they’re mad they should probably go rage out at Midway USA’s AR-Stoner brand too.
Hear, hear.
Oh god, the AR-Stoner stuff is just awful. And people seem to think Stoner just sat on his laurels and never made anything else. Hello, ever heard about the Stoner 63? Or all the Armalite guns that proceeded the 15, like the super light semi shotgun. Stoner went looking for the most advanced materials he could use from the aerospace industry to do things you just couldn't before. That it took 60 years for anyone to even try to do the same thing is actually freaking embarrassing.
@@MandoWookie Even worse when you realize "AR-Stoner" is just a rip-off of Knight's Armament's "Stoner Rifle-15"
@@jonathansmith7306 it may be playing off of that, but in terms of what they are offering, it looks more like the second coming of Olympic Arms.
I would love to try out an SR15 at some point, but Knights doesn't seem to have much of a presence in the civilian market right now.
I love my WWSD 2017. Thanks for taking the risk and building a great product.
Man. It's interesting reading some of the hissing catfights in the comments here, and some people going well out of their way to claim the rifle isn't durable because it won't last for thirty years of continuous, eight-hours-a-day heavy combat in the worst environments human beings can still survive in. Yes, those sort of conditions would break anything not made out of forged steel, but I doubt those conditions are realistic, either. The rifle isn't meant as a spec-ops assault weapon or a full-auto suppression gun - it's a general purpose, handy, lightweight fighting rifle. It's not an eye of the storm supergun, it's just a really good GP carbine. if your use case is eight hours a day of heavy nonstop combat in the worst conditions humanity can survive in, then by all means get yourself some twenty-pound all-steel monstrosity...but the vast, vast, _vast_ majority of people will never subject their rifle to those conditions, so why use them as a bar to try and hold the rifle to?
The reason why "matching serial number" military gun are rare is because even old school steel and wood guns had parts replaced over time. The odds of finding a well used Garand, 1911, or M16 with all original parts is very low.
Those people owe it to themselves to watch Ian and Karl's "W.W.S.D.?" video series as they designed this rifle part by part from the ground up. Maybe they'll learn something, maybe their butt will hurt worse. Who knows? Someone who thinks that they know better than Ian McCollum given who he is and, also, who his father is... That's just pure ego. Also, Brownell's doesn't just flippantly decide to start producing something because a random TH-camr said it's good. Brownell's is a big name and has a reputation to think about.
@@nickaschenbecker9882 Hey what does his Dad do. I did some research and I know he is a historian etc.. but your comment suggested he had a lot of knowledge etc… can you help me with some more info please?
I agree. They also forget that this is a “practical accuracy” course, not “hell week for rifles” They are not being shot at by Russian conscripts or Taliban in a hostile combat conditions and I would never expect to see this rifle there as that was never what Ian and Co. Designed it for. Its a very capable and lightweight rifle based on a tried and true design. Its also very accurate. I would not pick up the rifle or go this direction personally (mainly the fixed stock and barrel length) but I respect the effort and knowledge that has gone into.
Weapons are tools. They will break. They will wear out. Who cares? Fix it or replace it.
there's no issue with the lower and hand-guard choices for the WWSD2020; people are looking to just throw shade - just tell them that you think you saw some 45acp spent casings over on target lane 49.
Two world wars sonny
@@buckaroobonsi555 Did you lower break? Have you seen one break? I think there's a warranty on the lowers if you manage to break it. There's also video from InRangeTV where they run over the rifle with a car, and the lower was fine afterwards.
@@buckaroobonsi555 heck anything can break you get another one. If its something that breaks alot don't use it. But I don't see that here.
@@buckaroobonsi555 As others have said - it is more durable than many of the aluminum lowers on the market. Yes, you might snap the buttstock off your M4, and then you replace it. It is highly unlikely that this will ever happen to the KP-15. If it does, you did something highly unusual. (this was tested at full auto after running it over with a truck, bashing it against a post like a baseball bat, and doing pull-ups on it). If it does break, buy a new one for $100. Lowers are cheap.
@@buckaroobonsi555 Have you ever broken a conventional AR grip or stock?
Just curious
I just imagine the neighbors watching Henry and Josh in the garage calling the police and saying "theres 2 men worshipping a rifle and looking suspicious"
can confirm
All hail gun Jesus blessed rifle. May it's lightness descend upon you and relieve you of your pains.
It looks like fl so idk
Not suspicious at all. "Hail Ares"
As a guy who has worked in socom weapons repair and logistics for damn near 10 years, I'll say this weapon is a great idea. Lighter rifles that are just as durable are a real asset for the end user. Why carry around a 12lb rifle with all the bells and whistles when you can get away with the same setup in 8-9lbs. Even just the lower on my URGI rig dropped off 3lbs almost
Man i'd say the biggest issue with SOF use is with the suppressor weight causing the barrel droop. My retro Gordon Carbine has no issue like that and I suspect the reason is two fold: 1, the free float barrel with no secondary support point, 2, the Gordon using a reflex suppressor, giving it two points of contact to stiffen the barrel up.
Not saying that's a big issue for civvy use, but for SOF use, being unable to use a can is a no-go. It's also not that hard to solve with a fluted barrel to increase barrel stiffness.
@@9HoleReviews ho essay just transporting the hammer forged barrel that the URGI runs into that upper and lower I think would add just a hair more rigidity and would hopefully mitigate any major drop like you've noticed.
Overall I think the design is extremely forward thinking and the weight savings in an operational environment would be very welcome, I remember when we fielded the RIS II rail and the rifles were bomb proof but heavier than hell, and more teams shifted to mk18s as a result.
I'm all for lighter but capable, I think a few tweaks and this platform will be there
@@9HoleReviews have you tested the WWSD with suppressors?
@@borkwoof696 .......yes...... 20:40
@@9HoleReviews I'd just put a heavier barrel on it. You're loosing so much weight with the handguard and the lower that the heaviest barrel you can put on it still won't make the complete rifle too heavy.
One of the biggest setbacks for Stoner was barrel tech. As Ian talks about a lot with this build, the A1 profile is a great profile for a general purpose combat rifle that's carried a hell of a lot more than it's shot.
However, Stoner was limited by the times. Barrel tech has advanced a lot recent, as Faxon will attest to, so the "A1" is a properly viable rifle again.
I agree and disagree to a point they have had instances in Iraq and Afghanistan were troops get into longer fire fights the barrels were failing. I think we have to be careful thinking that all modern wars are going to be small skirmishes. Specially with smaller units going against bigger units like a platoon vs a whole group of insurgents. In battles a soldier is going to use a lot of ammunition sometimes in automatic fire. Maybe putting fins on the barrel or a heat sink barrel fins like a computer. I’m still not convinced with the carbine fiber it has high tensile strength but dose not do well with impact and abrasion. I will say that I was biased against this rifle but I’ve changed my mind it’s a really well thought out gun I would like to own one
@@chucknoris7648 If you're concerned about carbon fiber check out the Leap engine. They've never failed an impact or blade out test and they made from carbon fiber.
What barrel did they use in this video?
@@skromee _if_ they used a complete and proper WWSD rifle it _should_ be a Faxon Gunner Profile barrel, likely a 16" midlength if memory serves me correctly. Its a lightweight, .625" gas journal barrel with a 1:8 twist.
@@chucknoris7648 that is on full auto suppression fire. No rifle or carbine is an ultralight machine gun like the failures were used for. The 249 was designed for that.
Some really good shooting! -Dimitri
We need a longer range test of this rifle, the accuracy is impressive!
If they go any farther out the 5.56 out of that short barrel will go subsonic, making an accuracy test more or less pointless.
@@Gorgondantess IMI 77gr out of a 16" barrel will remain supersonic well past 650.
@@Gorgondantess You could already see this happen in the substantial arc at 650yds. Going with a heavier projectile would mitigate this, but as 55gr is still the most prevalent on the civilian market as well as as close to the original round that Stoner designed the weapon for this was the right ammo to use imo.
That's partly true but it's actually transonic speed that affects accuracy roughly 1.2x or 1.3x the speed of sound or 1320fps or 1430fps depending on the bullets transonic performance
I agree that it would be interesting to see the accuracy degradation at longer ranges, but If you have had the chance to see interviews of Stoner, he was adamant that an infantry rifle only needed a 300m effective range. Bakelite N Waffles has a recording of Stoner arguing that the M16 should have had fixed sights, since adjustable sights would not be needed for its effective range.
I built a wwsd inspired rifle using the kp15 lower and love it, however I have had some of the kids and women in my family shoot it. I have noticed the that the lighter weight is such a confidence boost to them because they are not wrestling to hold the rifle up and steady as much and can hit targets down range easier.
I have go to the range alone if I want to use mine. If I take anyone else with me I need to bring something for me to shoot. I won't get it back until we go home. The smiles are worth it though.
Buy some dumbbells instead
@@mrs.vasquezz the dumbbells trolling was old and worn out in the 1990s.
@@erggml1887 just say your weak and move along
@@mrs.vasquezz see? The same old trolling from the 1990s. Pathetic
Mr. Chan, my only gripe is when people talk about the AR 15 as opposed to the 10 and neglect to credit Mr. James Sullivan.
My wwsd is my favorite rifle. While i personally have absolutely no problem with him, i suspect that some of the criticism of this rifle comes from people who simply don't like Karl from inrangeTV and therefore dislike what is, in my oppinion an excellent rifle for no real reason but personal bias against someone involved with the project.
I dislike Karls socialist/communist ideals and his supposed other religious views (those I have never seen substantiated), BUT I am very interested in the ideas incorporated and the approach taken with this rifle.
Edited to say it was easy to verify Karls promoting and involvement in the Satanic Temple.
@@ETuss713 i dont agree with his political or religous ideals at all, but i dont let that get in the way of my opinion of the rifle, or the validity of the content on the inrange channel like the old west videos and mud tests
As someone who's a bit critical on the WWSD project, I'll leave my thoughts on it.
I don't hold any of Karl's beliefs/opinions against the rifle, per say, but at the same time they do kinda seep into the rifle. Namely his disapproval of the forward assist and back up irons, to the point where the rifle has (and in the case of the handgaurd and buis, can't reliably accept) either. And that's not mentioning how the rifle, despite being built by KE, doesn't have KE's bolt and gas system that Stoner helped design, I could understand this being a thing before they started working with KE on the project, but now?
I do however like the concept, and will likely build my own version of it sometime down the road, might even become my go to if I SBR my current rifle, which is leaning more towards a SHTF build rather than a general purpose build.
Edit: KA is the one who did Stoner's improvements regarding gas system and bolt, not KE, my apologies for the mistake.
@@wolfgang_h3t what bolt and gas system are you referring to? I don’t see a bcg or gas system on ke arm’s shop that isnt young mfg.
Thanks for the help
@@ETuss713 Karl is a libertarian, it's pretty damn obvious? And yeah, he's with the Satanic Temple, it's a libertarian organization.
The primary piece to the rifle, and the part that started Karl and Ian on the project, was Faxon's new pencil barrel. Faxon claimed that through improved design and creation processes, they had mitigated the zero shift that happened under rapid fire with the original pencil barrels.
It would be interesting to see if you could do this test after rapid firing the rifle (say 30-90 rounds fired as quickly as possible)
Didn't they do an entire WWSD video on the barrel and heating concerns in terms of accuracy?
They did.
th-cam.com/video/b9gWWrVe1QA/w-d-xo.html
You can watch Ian and Karl do this when they were performing the initial analysis on the Faxon barrels during the initial development of the concept back in 2017. They go thru each component and test it in detail.
In addition, I can give you my own anecdotes on the issue. Mine works exactly as described. The group size expands somewhat, about an MOA or two, but the group center doesn’t move.
Would love to see it compared to a criterion CORE barrel
If the carbon fiber handguard is worrisome to you, KE Arms makes the Civil Defense rifle. Same lower minus ambi controls, same upper with an aluminum handguard. A few ounces heavier, but still very light. Quite a bit cheaper, too. Probably going to be my next AR.
Yeah Im really giving it a good look since Im looking to move on from my current AR
I bought the CDR when KE could not get fiber hand guards. Then 6 months later the WWSD 2020 is available. I wish I held out for the WWSD. To upgrade CDR to its standard is much greater than the difference in the price.
Isnt it the same rifle?
I would highly recommend watching the KP-15 torture test by RECOILtv. While not the exact same configuration, the WWSD prototype in that video also uses a carbon fiber handguard which gave in only after being ran over by a truck (the rifle worked fine afterwards)
People think carbon fiber will melt. They don't realize carbon fiber is cured.
Random person on the internet: "Polymer lowers are fragile"
Karl: *Runs over prototype polymer lower with a truck and keeps shooting it just to flex on the haters*
Right? Remember when PMags came out and people were shocked to find that they were radically more reliable and durable than the old aluminum pieces of junk?
I think the 'fragility' argument stems from situations where they were poorly designed by copying aluminum or steel designs and not factoring the material property differences leading to stress rises and subsequent failures.
We're loving ours so far. My wife is small, and the light weight really works to her advantage, as do the fully ambidextrous controls (she's profoundly sinister). We don't have access to a really long range, but out to the max we can get it's a nail driver, and very good for up close work.
“Profoundly sinister”
LOL
Solid rifle, good trigger, good optic (presumably), good ammo, perfect weather conditions, I probably shouldn't be suprised it did that well.
Also I agree a lot of the controversy is weird, it seems like part of it is people saying the rifle is bad at things it was never designed for, part is people taking the "What Would Stoner Do" name a little too literally instead of looking at the actual design goals, and the rest is people having way too strong opinions on the inclusion or lack of a forward assist.
Also, it's a commerical product built with off-the-shelf parts; you're not being issued one and told to like it. If you need an IR laser to hold zero, you can build one with a nice metal handguard. If you think you need a forward assist and build a WWSD carbine with one, Ian probably won't show up to your house to convince you of the error of your ways. If you think the Faxon barrel is too light for your use case, nobody is likely to tell you the BCM ELW barrel is a wrong choice.
Not sure what y'all did different on your spotting camera setup (possibly just good wind conditions) but it was cool to be able to see the vapor trail on camera. Looking forward to a review of the optic too if there's more to it than "it's like the PA 1-6 but it goes up to 8."
I believe a significant part of the "controversy" is people who disagree with Ian and Carl on a political level.
very much doubt it is a politlcal question... Perhaps more a disagreement on personality, but that is a very big difference!
Yep
When he first mentioned controversy I just assumed it would be because it's a project made by "gun reviewers" in collaboration with a manufacturer. Comments proved me way wrong. People aren't bothered by the potential conflict of interest but instead they are bothered by completely irrelevant stuff like Karl's politics and what they imagine Ian's politics are (since I can't recall a single time Ian's revealed his own beliefs). As far as the polymer lower, pencil barrel and no forward assist. Guess what, it's a fucking AR, you can fix those if you like some aspects of the rifle but not others. If you don't like the whole package, nobody is making you buy it.
People are just salty because Karl believed in science instead of political rhetoric during a pandemic and because h thinks people with brown skin are also humans that should be armed.
@@jamesw9930 lmao, He's just a cringey, arrogant sperge. Many people were rubbed the wrong way by him even before he started making more overtly political posts. Oddly enough they only started after Ian wasn't on much anymore.
I have fired my friends WWSD2017 and just acquired WWSD2020 and I love it. I have fired a number of AR15 platforms over time and some are great and some are stock. Having one configured like an M4 and loaded up with all the accessories its a brick. I prefer the WWSD2020, yes you have to pay top dollar for it, but its adaptable , light and reliable. My friend has used and abused his WWSD2017 without any parts failure or breaks in the polymer for nearly 4 years. Its his home defense weapon, he uses it for hunting and 2 and 3 gun matches. People also forget this is not a gun aimed at military service and you don't need to worry about a grunt or marine finding a way to break it.
id just get an ati omni hybrid maxx....polymer upper and lower, 5.65 lbs.
You see - I know I could break a collapsing stock doing soldier like things with it, we all know you could purposely bugger one with a good stamp against a kerb if needed or if you did something stupid like using it as a step. The buffer tube is indeed a weak point. I would feel far more confident abusing the WWSD stock though.
Seems like this is a rifle that doesn't work in Internet theory but does in practice.
I ordered my WWSD lower just this week here in Europe (cannot get upper yet).
And you're right, without getting a good understanding of velocity, you struggle at long range starting at about 500m or so.
I put a 20" FN upper on a KP15 lower specifically because the 16" barrel drops off early. Weighs 8lbs loaded with optics and 1MOA, it's a handy lightweight full potential rifle.
Isn’t internet theory the most useless theory?
@@afilleduptaco How dare suggest that keyboard warriors opinions are useless!
Where, oh where did You get the WWSD lower? And please don't say Brownells :(
I handled one at a shop and passed because i have small hands and the grip is absolutely enormous.
It was custom made for Ian and Karl and everyone else can pound sand.
I'm going to be honest, I had no idea that this rifle would be controversial and while I understand the concerns, I just don't understand why they are as vehemently opposed as they are.
Maybe I'm the one missing some context, but I don't get it.
I don’t get it either, I was able to hold one and it is quite nice. Especially for the price. I would add a Geissele trigger and that would be it!
Some people are overblowing the controversy and some people just have nothing else to fo other than bitching online
@@borkwoof696 Right...I'm sure all the bitching is either coming from fudds or keyboard warriors.
@@fubar1217 yup
Same folks that resisted auto pistols cause revolvers work fine, or resisted m16s when m14 work fine etc...
This rifle is, imho, one thought experimentation taking into consideration over 70 years of design refinement, material science, and quality improvements. As the saying goes, yesterday's luxury is today's expectation. 70 years ago a good barrel had 2.5-4.0 MOA and today you can off the shelf get something with 1.0 MOA or better, the majority of consumer products are made with polymers today, and optics went from being fragile to more durable than some rifles themselves.
It would be really interesting to see this rifle go through a battery of tests akin to a military trial to see how far it can go.
Ian and Karl said that they had submitted one to a military trial, just to see what would happen, and we’re just waiting to hear how it went.
While it’s not remotely as rigorous as a military trial, KE Arms did build at least one in full auto to greater stress the components. InRange TV has an interesting video of Karl, Ian Harrison of Recoil Magazine and Russell Phagan of KE Arms putting the gun through its paces.
Aye, and I don't think I remember hearing Ian or Karl say that this is the "ultimate AR-15", or the best that it could be (could be wrong, they might have). I'm sure both of them are well aware of the fact that apart from the lower everything on the gun is an off the shelf component, and while they went through a lot of testing and have good reasons for why they picked the components they did, improvements would be possible if they could get everything on the gun custom specced into a new pattern of rifle. This is a "the best rifle we could come up with using components that are on the market" kind of deal.
The guys interviewed Jim Sullivan, and tried out some of his experimental improvements of the AR-15 (like the constant recoil system, not that that matters much in a non-automatic gun), they know that there's room for improvement on the gun if you could get to some of the more fundamental aspects of it.
The WWSD is, in short, what the M16A1 should have been if it could have been. Stoner was ahead of his time as far as material science goes, this is what the M16 deserved to be. The basic bitch, mass issued infantry rifle that's carried more than it's shot, and when it's shot it outperforms the shooter.
The only part of this rifle that I would expect to break/fail during rigorous testing is the handguard. The CF handguard is pretty strong in some ways, but weak in others. Where aluminum would deform, carbon fiber will snap,crack or splinter.
An absurd example would be to try and drive a nail through the cf handguard. An aluminum handguard would deform at and around the the impact sight. The cf handguard would have a hole punched right through it and there's no telling how much material would go with it or how that would impact the integrity of the handguard as a whole.
I would honestly love to see some of these tested, abused and generally beat to hell to see how well they stand up compared to conventional materials and designs.
It would be good to be surprised if they hold up better than the critics think.
To be fair, the concerns about the durability of this firearm is pretty much a classic example of fudds fudding.
Begun, the Forward Assist Wars have....
There never was a war, people just like to argue about literally nothing lol
And this argument is boring as hell
It's the "Rittenhouse button"
@@ArtilleryChannel the Rittenhouse situation has made me rethink forward assists lol
@@riley6475 helping send a bolt out of battery home is one of the best uses of it. People would know that if they just ran their guns instead of waiting for some video or article to come out
@@riley6475 you don’t need it until you do and when you do, your bolt is generally hot as fuck, or your hands are sweaty.
My opinion on polymer lowers or pistols is simply that I like how metal feels. Just like I prefer a hammer to a striker, it's a preference, there's nothing wrong with polymer or strikers. As for carbon fiber, race car suspensions, brakes, wheels, drive shafts and the list goes on of parts that take far more abuse daily than a handguard.
You got this whole disagreeing with people on the internet thing wrong mate. You didn't even insult anyone's intelligence.
Frankly I'm offended that you didn't offend me. 😜
That intro is pure genius ... good work Ian.
EDIT: Can you please NOT split the audio channels ? I heard Josh in the left and Henry in the right channel only during the range segment ... I started with only one earcup of the headphones over my ear since I needed to pay attention to something else as well ... it was weird not hearing one of you speak until I realized what's going on ...
I took an FNA4 20" upper (custom free floated national match) and paired it with a WWSD KP-15 lower, fully loaded with a red dot and flashlight its 8.4lbs. Took a nice buck with it a few weeks back, super lightweight and it's a 1MOA rifle.
Was there a timer going when you took that shot? I hear the KP-15 only works on the clock...
LOL
@Tom Wing yes. It was in the WWSD2017 videos. They were looking at a standard rifle. Military uses the M4. They wanted compact and light. With current technology, 20" was unnecessary to shoot at combat distances.
I love the build of the WWSD2020 rifle as a modern version of the original concept of the stoner platform rifle (and I would LOVE to see a AR-10 version in the future). It fits all the criteria for the original rifle being light, reliable, and accurate.
The “controversy” is, IMHO, the subject of mostly fudd-lore arguments and personal preferences.
I really would love to see a close range comparison to a current M4 and see a more thorough breakdown of this rifle.
As always, good shooting.
I've already asked, there will be no AR10 version produced. That is partially because of the lack of demand and the polymer can't handle that level of recoil (which is why they state no .450/.458/.50Beo with the KP15).
@@SuspiciousGanymede shame, that’s unfortunate but understandable.
@@SuspiciousGanymede it’s not that it can’t take it. KE just won’t say it’s good to go because they haven’t tested those cartridges, and aren’t going to because it would be heinously expensive to do.
There’s also no definitive “AR-10” pattern to make the gun to. You’d have to pick one of the existing patterns and just snub the aftermarket of all the others.
@@buckaroobonsi555 ok boomer
@@buckaroobonsi555 how many stocks and pistol grips have you damaged?
I know people who’ve served in the marines who’ve been using m16’s that’ve been in service and seen combat for decades and still have their original parts minus a few springs, extractors, and rings. Those parts don’t break often outside bad manufacturing or actual destructive trauma, even when handled by marines.
If it’ll survive being run over I’m sure it’ll survive being dropped into your safe.
WWSD lowers are amazing in my own experience. Incredible product that I'm glad someone took the time & effort to develop and build.
Same here. I tried to buy a Cav Arms lower but they were sold out in 2017. Now I have half a dozen, and they are almost perfect.
I'm just impressed by the snatch reference.
People saying that a CARBON FIBER component "might be fragile" is absolutely hilarious. Such people must know *LITERALLY NOTHING* about carbon fiber.
5x stronger than steel
2x stiffer than steel
60% lighter than aluminum
[as always, these aren't absolutes as there are obviously different alloys of aluminum & steel, as well as different weaves of CF & different resins - but these numbers are generally true, and NOT extreme examples]
If people want to be ignant and turn down superior materials for inferior materials, so be it - you do you.
We can debate the polymer lower I guess - but you BETTER be backing it up with specific examples of *KE polymer lower* failures, otherwise I just can't take these arguments seriously.
you should in all honesty qualify your metrics with *for the same weight. A CF handguard of the exact dimensions as a steel one is not remotely as strong. A steel handguard made to the same weight at the CF one, sure. It would almost be made of foil.
Well... there are certainly steels which are significantly stronger than carbon fiber when it comes to tensile strenght... but there are hughe differences in the strenght of different alloys...
What ever... much more important is the fact that carbon fiber materials only achive their optimal tensile strenght when the load is applied in parallel to the direction of the fibers. You could argue that the load on a handguard could occour in almost any direction, especially if you drop the rifle or drop something ontoo it. Carbon composite material is in general much less impact resistant compared to metals, it can break in a situation in which a metal might get away with a little dent.
That being said I'm quite confident that the carbon fiber handguard is good enough for most applications. Metal handguards which might be significantly more durable are much heavier.
I mean, if you guys want to get obnoxious about it outside of the context of the parts we're talking about here, go for it guys.
I have the faxon CF handguard on a heavy DMR homebuild. It's not going to break, but it DOES flex some. You would get a major shift from loading a bipod.
Of course I'm not gonna put lasers on a damn SAPR and give myself away, so it works for me.
@@RyTrapp0 Except they're not going outside of the context. They're explicitly addressing the way too often ignored context of material engineering.
Hell, the first chunk of your initial comment can be treated as objectively false because those claims are highly nuanced and you can't achieve all three claims simultaneously, nor can it be interchanged with aluminum or steel without re-engineering the component.
Brilliantly entertaining as usual. Love the new range, editing, format, overlays, graphics and of course the excellent comedy, commentary and debrief. Thanks guys for a thoroughly enjoyable video. Cheers.
The automatic bhit markes on the steel with lights look pretty sweet.
@@PaletoB Agreed.
I have two of the lowers - they seem great so far (disappointed in the KE arms trigger - had some ftf with mil spec ammo). I don’t care for the CF hand guard, so I’ve built uppers that mostly follow the principles (no forward assist, light barrels, etc.)
I have followed the WWSD project since the beginning and think the work that Karl and Ian have done is fantastic.
The original SLT trigger certainly can light-strike on hard primer ammo...their new "Rekluse" trigger has a much stronger hammer spring and works great with surplus ammo, albeit at an increased cost.
I played lacrosse with a carbon fiber stick. My entire team did (sponsor) and we only broke one in 2 years. Based on that alone I'm not too worried about the hand guard
(Edit)Seems like people still see this after two months so here's some more details I can remember: the sticks were just the shafts, not the head portions of the sticks, those remained plastic as they needed to bend A lot. The only time we broke a stick was when one player crosschecked another when sprinting into him, middle of the stick to opponent's humerus, and the stick broke. The shafts were filled with some sort of very hard foam, it was difficult to make a mark with a finger nail, and the carbon fiber was about as thick as the WWSD handguard, maybe a bit thicker,but much smaller in diameter, obviously. People bring up some good points in the comments, I don't have any. This is just my experience with a similar product!
It’s so much that shattering it’s more the ability of the rail to hold zero with modern force multipliers
@@notaddmk18fsp_37 What force multipliers are you talking about? Grips and flashlights need no zero, and lasers are basically useless past a couple meters. I dont see the issue here, really.
@@notaddmk18fsp_37 "modern force multipliers" how to spot inexperienced kids on the net.
@@Bramble20322 hahahahahha lasers are useless past a few yards. IR lasers you literal broke child
@@Bramble20322 IR aiming lasers are not useless past a couple meters
Now that was some fine shooting lads!
This is one the most current versions of the AR15 and probably one of the coolest rifles out there.
I don't care what anyone says: This is truly an advancement of the original goal of the platform. There may be other AR15s that may be a tad or more durable but a lightweight combat ready firearm with effective accuracy at even 650Y is insane. It's not meant to be the be all end all in terms of durability, but honestly it's still reliable as we've seen and proven itself in practical combat shooting scenarios like Finnish Brutality.
I may love my AKs and classic M16s, but a weapon like this should be the key to inspire all future platforms to follow suit, even if not mil-spec, or at least for current platforms to evolve to. Stoner would be proud of what was achieved with this.
Well said! Took the words right out of my mouth. I couldn't agree more, and Karl, Ian, and Russell, along with the respective companies involved have done a tremendous thing for the industry as a whole with the commercial introduction of the WWSD rifle, and it's sister rifle the Civil Defense Rifle.
I remember watching the 2017 series with bated breath to see what was next in the project, and always found myself fascinated by what they were achieving, and wishing for a commercially produced version, and then ta-da lol! I feel as though there's a stigma with these AR polymer lowers though because of past iterations that just copied the aluminum versions. Which Ian and Karl have gone through great lengths to try and explain why those failed, and why these haven't (as far as I know), and what makes these different. At this point I'm kind of of the mind of "lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink" mentality.
SR-15 E3 already exists
In time, I ll get a modern pencil barrel and CF handguard, but for now my KP15 will be a KP15/A1 with fixed handle and 16 in barrel will do for now.
@@talltale9760 Uh huh? Now we have even more options to choose from to Lego our rifles with. In the end, to each their own.
As a back-packer, your conversation about weight is a common one I hear. There are a lot of people who make fun of weight-weinies and, granted, some people take it too far (with things like titanium sporks and ultra-fragile tarps). But in general, the lighter your kit is the more enjoyable it is to wear it. It is less weight to carry, so your muscle don't have to work as hard. This lets you go faster and longer, or go at the same pace more easily.
I'm not saying light-weight trumps everything. Everything is a balance of comfort, durability, weight, and practicality. But there is no reason to not prioritize lightness if possible. You aren't tough because you can hump 30 pounds around when you COULD have been humping 15.
It doesn't surprise me that this point is lost on firearms enthusiasts. There is a real machismo thing many suffer from.
Weight is often a confusing thing to discuss. What cartridge, what purpose, what context, etc. You'll often see people brag about ex military and packing weight around and blah blah. Great, how does lumping a 30 pound machine gun plus a mount and ammo relate to packing a 12lb precision rifle and being tasked with a 3-500 yard cold bore shot in the mountains?
The old military saying goes like this, “Ounces lead to pounds and pounds lead to pain”.
I live in Greenland, one of the harshest places on earth; weight matters in the mountains.
@@AlexKS1992 and from my experience, the military loves pain.
@@509Gman Embrace the suck...
Alot of the hate seems to come from not understanding the project to begin with. This hate is also coming from guys who max out their credit cards to buy blem KAC stripped lowers and price-inflated SR-15 uppers.
Ummm blem kac lowers ? Got a link ? Lol
No shhh …
The inside of the KP-15 is meshed with stiffening parts. There is no way this thing would break more easily than an adjustable stock.
Ya the key is it’s a fixed stock I had one a while 7.62 and it’s fine I even homemade a ambi bolt release by cutting a slot in the receiver. Their strong and fine also cheap buy several their awsome
What do you mean by "meshed with stiffening parts?" The receivers don't have any inserts, other than the serial number plate, imbedded into it during the injection, if that's what it means. Are you referring to the molded structure itself, or the internals installed in the lower?
@@SuperVeeZee I believe he is talking about the honey comb style structure inside the stock and pistol grip etc Also everything is thicker and different dimensions, nothing like a regular receiver. I believe they are stronger than regular ar adjustable stock and pistol grip. If your ok with a fixed stock I believe this is vastly superior to a regular receiver and a lot lighter.
@@SuperVeeZee i can't find the video or picture where i saw that. but it's the molded structure itself. the lower is not hollow.
@@jefferyboring4410 I have three of them already built. Built a fourth, too, but got rid of that rifle. So I'm familiar with them. I'm a believer for sure. I don't miss the weight, and I don't miss the adjustable stock or replaceable grips. Big win in my book.
i like the updated version of practical accuracy. keep it up
The only thing I'd change (and maybe that's already an option) Is to change the length of pull at least slightly with different end caps. Depending on what one is wearing it's nice to change that aspect. I wonder if that is possible with the buffer system.
Overall the rifle is sound and I got no issues with well engineered and tested reinforced polymers with brains and there are even videos of the KP-15 production so I got no issue with that. There are AUGs out there from decades of use and their freaking firing mechanism is mostly polymer. I hope I can get one through brownell's europe next year...beer times get in the way.
Basically a modular polymer end cap solution that facilitates multiple LOP and a different internal buffer system option.. that's pretty good!
@@9HoleReviews
th-cam.com/video/8Fh6eLXGmog/w-d-xo.html
Yeah, I wanted to “build” using KE arms polymer lower and a 11.5” lightweight barrel & handguard upper… the problem is that In the USA a fixed stock rifle with a
KE Arms teased a spacer accessory a while ago, but I haven’t heard anything about it recently.
I forget the name, but there is a shop doing cut downs if one ever wants to go the other way. Neither option changes the buffer length.
I agree with Ian and Carl that the A1 is a good length for a mass issued rifle (and that the A2 was a big mistake because it was designed for the KD rifle range, not for combat) but I'm one of those those people that do actually use a shorter LOP. My adjustable stocks are always set ~1" to ~3/4" shorter than my C1 stock.
It cracks me up that people doubt the durability of the polymer lower. I know not everyone has watched In Range WWSD series. That being said, these lowers have been abused to the point of being ran over by a truck and they still worked flawlessly. A platform that is very lightweight, reliable, and accurate is remarkable. If only I had the funds for the complete WWSD rifle. My AR has the pencil barrel, lightweight handguard, and the holosun red dot. I couldn't be happier with how it's been shooting.
@ 4:20 Watching gravity pull those shots down at higher ranges is so cool. It really does help the shooter see whats happening to the round as it travels down range. I didnt realize the ballistic arc was so extreme on 5.56 but thats a wild swing at 650 yards.
The Ballistic arc is even more extreme using 55 or 62gr ammo. Even with 77 or 75 gr otm ammo after 500 it is a big fall off. However for 400 yards and in the AR15 is amazing.
@@smithnwesson990 Im guessing this is why people are all the rage about 300 blackout.
But its like a laser out to 300 which is exactly how its meant to work. The Germans were not wrong when they number crunched all the contact reports from the first half of WW2 and realised that most rifle actions happen below that range.
The people who throw shade think that nylon 6,6 with 30% glass injection is the same as 3d printer resin
Skookum as frig
Hell, and some of the printer resins are pretty damn strong nowadays
I have a KE Arms KP15 lower with a DPMS upper on it that has a 16” pencil barrel with a 1-8 Vortex Strike Eagle mounted. The rifle is very light weight and ergonomically comfortable. I have mine zeroed with Frontier 5.56 62 gr. BTHP match. I have regularly run my rifle from 50 to 600+ yards on steel effortlessly just using the BDC reticle in the Strike Eagle. The rifle is very accurate and has been flawless in reliability.
How much did the build cost!
@@baker90338 I bought the KE Arms KP-15 complete Mil spec lower, they are currently $199 from Brownells, i think I paid less for mine using a discount code when I bought mine when they first became available, (FYI the KE Arms Mil spec trigger group is one of the best Mil spec triggers I have shot, clean, no creep or grittiness, crisp break). I already had the DPMS upper, it has Magpul hand guards and I have a Vltor gunfighter charging handle in it, it is otherwise OEM as I bought it as a complete rifle years ago, the lower is being used on another rifle. I bought the 1-8 Vortex Strike Eagle on a great sale, about $365 including a one piece mount. All in all, my build is very reasonably priced.
@@stephaniemusick171 thanks for telling us about the trigger. I've been considering one of those since I don't currently have it in my practical budget to get the whole WWSD. Plus I want to put a lightweight 16 in 300 blackout barrel on one.
@@GunFunZS I’m considering getting a .300 blackout upper and a kp15 as a .30-30 rifle replacement for my dad.
@@baker90338 I have load the old lyman 170 grain RNFP that was THE classic 30-30 bullet. And I can load it fairly stout over h110. I haven't put it on a chronograph but I know I'm well over the velocity range that is sort of the normal hunting velocity as that bullet was used in 3030. 300 blackout doesn't really have standardized feed ramp geometry figured out in the industry. Pretty much all of them just leave a standard m4 feed ramp which is wrong. So in current state of the industry if you want to run anything other than very pointy bullets kind of expect that you're going to address your feed ramps a little bit and possibly select magazines that point the nose upward a little bit more. It's pretty easy to do some moderate tweaks to GI mags to improve the reliability with blunt projectiles. I suspect the Magpul ones made for the m855 A1 would probably be a good pic too. Currently my favorite are the torkmags. Those lack a guide rib and have bigger capacity for overall size. The lack of guide rib means you don't have to consider whether a bullet profile will create a false shoulder as far as the magazine is concerned.
Bottom line I'm getting at is that I am pretty well convinced any light 10-in plus 300 blackout AR pistol or carbine is going to be in the same ballpark of performance and a lot handier to carry and use than a classic 30-30. But a classic 30-30 is also a fun gun to have.
I think a lot of the "worry" people express is based on old data. Polymer USED to be brittle and fragile when it first came out compared to other materials, Carbon Fiber is the same, but people go by that first impression too often. They fail to account for increases in technology. Modern day Polymers and carbon fiber are tough, heat and cold resistant and just much better at surviving than their early predecessors. There is really nothing a normal shooter is going to put that gun through that will cause it to fail. You really have to abuse the crap out of your gun to do it, and even then I think it wouldn't be easy.
And its not just firearm technology I find this attitude in. As a truck driver I run into this a lot on Autoshift trucks. First people call them automatics, but they are not, they are mechanically manual transmissions with a clutch, they are just shifted by computer instead of a lever. When they first started coming out, the computer was horrible, the basic transmission was good, but the computer support wasn't. They shifted poorly or late, downshifted to early, and the electronics broke....a lot. But the modern ones have for the most part fixed all those problems except maybe the longevity. They do last longer than they used to though. But they still get a lot of hate and people still bring up things they USED to do as proof that they suck.
I guess its just human nature. First impressions are hard to throw off.
thats actually why we try not to do "first impression" videos. We want stuff that is comprehensive.
@@9HoleReviews Awesome....I'm just gonna step over here and fan girl for a bit.
Keep up the good work guys!
@@scottjackson1636 oh man come on, we’re the ones appreciative of your support if anything!
Okay, so after following Ian and Karl’s progression and after the two of you testing it out, I ordered one. I love it, and I thoroughly enjoy everything about it. I’ve put about 2K rounds through it and it’s pushing out my X95 from the, “One Rifle”. Very well put together and phenomenal in parts and equipment.
03:42 is the shot - right in the middle at 500 yds, astonishing.
If people are so concerned about the carbon fiber there is a less expensive version without the carbon fiber and the JP capture buffer.
The Civil Defense rifle appeals to me more as an off the shelf item. Though what I really want to do is put the Brownells Retro Dissipator upper on the poly lower. Too bad they discontinued that upper.
My biggest concern is the cost. I'm a civvie, so weight isn't nearly as killer for me, and I'm already saving a lot of weight with the Faxon Gunner barrel. It's cool, but when I do my version I'm slapping a Midwest Industries Combat Rail on it and calling it a day.
That 1st 500 yard shot was so satisfying. Talk about quartering the target
Sniper mode button, hilarious!
I like Brandon Herrera’s comment calling it the failure inducing button.
This rifle impresses me more every time I see it. This is the only "black rifle" I would like to own.
Controversy? If a weapon gets first round hits consistently and puts the bad guy in the bad place, there is no controversy.
Well, seeing as the WWSD will probably never be used to put "bad guys in the bad place" I guess that means it's controversial?
My issue with the gun is entirely in the marketing. Ian and Karl market this gun as "what the US military would use if they weren't all dumb-dumbs" even though neither of them have any military/combat experience.
when people are this sensitive about their bad ideas being challenged, sadly yes there absolutely is controversy
@@theodorehunter4765 the military would, and did, pick the KAC SR-16 E3
Which has actual longeveity upgrades in bolt geometry, bolt alloy, gas length, gas block, and holds zero properly on its handguard while weighing 6.4 lb unloaded at 14.5.
@@DD-hz3ts fuckers need to hurry up and finish their recent mil contract so I can actually buy one
@@talltale9760 given how many NT4s they're having to make that will be a while lmao
Wait..... People complained about the 'durability' weakness of the carbon fiber handguard?
Top Fuel drag cars use a carbon fiber housing on their 1000 horsepower supercharger feeding their 11000 horsepower motors. Specifically for its durability. This complaint is extreme fuddery.
If you have a lighter rifle you can carry more of other things such as ammo, supplies, other equipment. Or if you want the rifle heavier you can run a D-60 and put a load of heavy scopes and attachments on the gun. It's main beauty is its balance, not just the weight. And this isn't meant to be military quality to serve all purposes, it is more of a civil defense rifle that the average citizen or militia could grab and go. Less about all the night vision and suppression capabilities. It's competition role is for 2G ACM, a practical competition more based around running, climbing, crawling, shooting from weird angles, more of a practical environment instead of sponsor covered clean-shirt competitons. Even just the lower itself is very interesting. There is a video on InRangeTV showing a very budget build with this lower with an upper and optic for approx $550. The lower definitely is a home-run, the rest of the rifle you could build it how you like, but the above package is the best optimized version. Though it would have been a 14.5 if it wasnt for the law and people complaining about pinned muzzles.
People hate on WWSD because they hate Karl’s personal beliefs. They cannot separate the merits of the rifle from IRTV. Which is hilarious since the broader 2A community styles itself as rugged “live and let live” individualists.
Unlike a lot of people in the 2A community, Karl K actually believes in gun rights for all, no exceptions apply.
Honestly, I think the supposed hate on Karl is a bit overblown. As a public figure, he doesn't seem to draw any more ire than anyone else. And unless they are hiding their personal disdain for Karl, supposed complaints about the rifle just seem to be from typical "Fuddism".
That’s been one of the aggravating things I’ve learned about the community over time. Karl has never expressed anything other than being a 2A absolutist. He does more for the community than 99% of his haters lol
@@XxCrankyMoosexX No one hates Karl for his 2A beliefs. It's his proggy beliefs... Like believing whites genocided Natives, even though theyre still here today... Like thinking Covid is the worst thing since the black plague and excoriating 'anti-maskers.' It's his attraction to Satanism and being an autistic edgelord... Karl's a douche. Ian's cool.
@@looneytuneslefty4811 Thank you for proving my point. Happy to see one of the 99%.
man 20 round mags just look so damn good
I built my own WWSD rifle. Because I wanted the FDE lower, so I didn’t get all the ambi stuff except the selector. I did get the Faxon carbon fiber handguard, which I painted a sort of camo pattern. Painting the carbon fiber using Brownell’s Aluma-Hyde worked much better than I expected. I also used the Faxon pencil barrel and an FDE Aero Precision upper that also didn’t have the sniper button. Using a Sig Romeo red dot and Juliet 4x magnifier. I absolutely love it. I may build another one black. All the “controversy” surrounding the WWSD rifle is totally unfounded. The hardest aspect for me to embrace was no backup iron sights….
And I finally had a chance to shoot it at 200 yards. I could barely see the 4” steel plate. But ringing it was easy.
I absolutely love mine. It is my hunting/ranch rifle now, a tool and not a showpiece. I treat it no more gingerly than any other rifle that has filled that role. There is no issue with the polymer lower, it's plenty strong. The hand guard does have a bit of flex when moving quickly and driving the rifle with force, but it has not effected my ability to make hits or the practical accuracy of the rifle thus far in my experience. It is lightweight and handy, and frankly every time I pick it up I feel a bit of giddy excitement. Only one other firearm in my life has done that, the V7 14.5" Enlightened AR, which is more than twice the price of the WWSD. This rifle may have started as a thought experiment, but it is now a fantastic reality.
I built this exact gun, minus the brake. Awesome to see what it's capable of, and that the PA SLx with the ACSS Griffin Mil works very well at extended ranges.
Re: IR laser mounting, if that's indeed a requirement, there's no reason a carbon fiber handguard couldn't incorporate an aluminum picatinny rail at the 12:00, either bolted on semi-permanently or with the handguard formed around it during manufacture. I think an interesting idea would be with forged composites. Forging an entire carbon fiber handguard with a pic rail on top and MLOK slots on the other sides would preserve strength and zero retention where it's needed while maintaining the carbon fiber benefits of light weight and thermal insulation.
which that's literally what PRI does with their carbon fiber mk12 handguard and Crane then dropped the top swan sleeve as a continuous rail but for the PVS30 clip on, but then typically IR units are mounted on the 3 o'clock for those for scope clearance.
I think it's the implementation philosophy of "if 90% of your consumer base will not use IR on it, then why include the dead weight?"
@@9HoleReviews This being a carbine and not a precision rifle, I would be inclined to think that most users would still be mounting the IR device at the 12. Agree that the PRI handguard did this concept originally; I suppose what I have in mind is a modernized version of that since there are now aluminum handguards lighter than the PRI.
I have no objections to the WWSD2020 having no top rail; as I mentioned in your IG post, intended purpose (and in this case being a commercial product, intended customer base) is paramount when discussing what something should or should not have.
@@9HoleReviews since it's also possible for the handguard to be switched to a normal AR handguard, it's not really worth adding the extra weight for the people who will never use it. Even if the handguard is switched out, the rifle will still be lighter weight compared to other rifles thanks to the pencil barrel and the polymer lower.
@@9HoleReviews Offering a "properly factory installed" (carefully fit and permanently affixed so it retains zero) 12 o'clock Picatinny rail as an option (which some companies do) just makes sense.
After all, in addition to the handful of folks who actually use quality lasers, you have far more people like me who disagree with Karl and Ian about the utility and value of BUIS on a lightweight carbine (especially one with a co-witnessed mini RDS) set up for what Cooper used to call "serious social purposes". The couple of ounces that adds are more than offset by having an immediate backup available of your RDS "fails" (which will probably be due to user error, frankly, like forgetting to turn it on, forgetting to change the battery before the New Years Eve party starts, or letting the battery cap get a little loose without noticing and allowing the battery to be jostled out of contact). I have even found that a fixed front post, coupled with an absolute co-witness mini RDS that isn't even on still provides much better than Minute of Ribcage at close ranges, using the RDS tube as a giant ghost ring. Flipping up the folding rear gives me equal or better sighting apparatus than I had on my M16, even if the RDS is still in place but not working. (I also find a fixed front BUIS guards the switch on a low profile 12 o'clock WML set just in front of the sight, allowing me to hit it naturally with my support hand without wires... of course the WML would be just fine mounted to an MLok slot, but since they tend to have built in Picatinny mounts anyway...)
So, having a professionally installed and stable 1913 rail at 12 o'clock on my carbon FF tube - that still weighs less than any equally serviceable aluminum handguard* is one of those options I'd willingly pay for as a "factory upgrade".
.
* Not a huge fan of the super lightweight aluminum tubes - you not only have the heat transfer of aluminum, but they tend to have such large gaps between the gossamer thin aluminum struts that burning your fingers because they slipped though a hole is a real possibility. And once you start adding heat resistant tube covers for protection, you start to lose the advantages of such an open latticework aluminum tube - weight goes up surprisingly fast while airflow around the barrel gets choked off. MLok riddled carbon fiber handguards don't suffer from either of those problems to any noticeable degree.
@@geodkyt 99% of civilians shooters don't own night vision and don't mount lasers on their guns. It's a struggle to get people to adopt weapon lights for their rifles/pistols and those are a much lower price point. The WWSD and Civil Defense rifles weren't designed for the military, they were designed for civilians who wanted a lighter weight AR15 platform that could flex into various roles. Therefore infrared optics, night vision and lasers, were really a consideration for this design.
Impressive performance and a clear demonstration of what is possible with modern tech. To those concerned about durability, both polymer and carbon fiber properly engineered and manufactured can be incredibly tough and durable. I specifically call out toughness as that is the opposite of brittleness. Both CF and modern polymers are composite materials that can handle compressive and tensile loads plus repeated impacts without cracking. Think about the rapid, cyclical stresses to which the tub chassis of an F1 car is subjected. They can actually handle more than their tube frame counterparts both in absolute loading and acute stresses while weighing significantly less. The tradeoff is cost due to complexity of engineering and manufacturing. So the real question with any modern piece of tech is "How much are you willing to pay?" to get the performance you want.
People in every aspect of life, are afraid and often reluctant to change. I remember when I purchased my Gen1 Glock 17 in 1986...People laughed at me. They claimed that the "plastic gun" would explode in my face...Well we all know how that worked out. I'm glad to see that someone was finally able to bring a successful polymer lower unit for the AR 15, as Colt intended to back in the late 60's. Great video!
For some background, I have a chronic disability. There's some videos on my channel that verify that. As such, I don't have much strength and endurance as the average person would. I originally had a GWOT/MGS4 M4 build. It was heavy and very impractical for me. It was then, that I saw the WWSD. I was interested in the concept. I understand the trade-offs the WWSD brings, but knowing my lifestyle, I would never be able to do such demanding physical activities. I need something lightweight but still perform reasonably well. I think the WWSD is fine addition to the AR15 platform. My only complaint is the length of pull but it's manageable nonetheless.
Now, I have similar WWSD carbine build. Not exactly a copy but there's a lot of design elements I took from it and worked with whatever I had from my previous build.
did you try looking at the ati omni hybrid maxx ar15? its got a polymer upper and lower, and is only 5.65 lbs with the heavy m4 stock, and delta ring setup. could be super light if you wanted it to.
I've followed the project for a long time and really love it. Although I have not bought one. The comments about fragile handguards probably have not seen well used M16A1/SP1 handguards after much use--they tend to look like hillbilly teeth with pieces broken out. I think a lot of people buy into the idea that military or military-inspired weapons are supposed to be indestructible. They need to buy a CMP rifle to realize that isn't the case. Anyhow, my fav carbine is a Colt law enforcement trade in with a pencil barrel and my least favorite is a Colt AR15A4 because there is just such a huge difference in weight.
Thank you for edding meters to the range information. Helps a lot for a simpel minded german.
It’s always a pleasure to watch videos presented ,produced and edited by you guys
As a person of shorter stature 1.7m (5’6” to you Seppos ), I personally would not want a single piece lower. I have rebuilt my CZ455 into a chassis system here in Tasmania. I have put a MagPul grip, ‘buffer tube’ and stock on it, and run it at it’s shortest stock length.
While I feel that the WWSD upper is nearly perfect, it is nearly perfect for a very specific set of circumstances.
There is no such thing as a ‘Universal Firearm’. The WWSD makes a brilliant mid to long range target and range gun, but I feel loses out as a potential combat weapon, as evidenced by the move towards shorter barrels for most current military operations.
I think the WWSD is, as it’s name suggests, purely an exercise, but, I feel Stoner himself would be aware of the changes in modern conflict to closer engagements, urban warfare, CQB and Counter Insurgency action, and would not necessarily do WWSD.
By the way, I wish Gun Jesus (Praised Be HIS Name) could click his fingers to help out our weather.
The barrel length on the retail guns is dictated by US laws on short barrel rifles. You could swap out for a shorter or heavier barrel easily enough. I think the 16" gives good ballistics at longer ranges, which can be important. I can't speak to the length of pull.
I got kp15 lower. I'm 5'4" and honestly I was worried about the length of the stock (A1 length fyi). Turns out it works fine and I feel no significant difference to my other AR running the stock one position out. That's my experience. Ymmv
I’m shorter than you 5’5” and it’s not a problem at all for me. It’s so light that even children shoot this with proper stance.
New range, awesome gun, great performance, awesome footage with even being able to see bullet trails. This is amazing, I was waiting for a new Practical accuracy video. Bless the Gun Jesus.
It's interesting to see that this set-up brought controversial comments. In my opinion it's just a very solid very well thought build and this... is totally fine.
It feels like the expectation of this build is set somewhere... I don't even know where. Since this rifle seems to perform as intended and that's it.
Can't wait to see Josh run it B)
6.8 pounds with the scope? Impressive! Great shooting as well!
Like 4 guys just took these to Finnish Brutality and had no malfunctions. Why is this still up for debate?
This is my subjective opinion.
The controversy comes from Traditionalists. I believe that they are under the impression that the current AR15 design base was the end all be all AR15, the peak of what Stoner would have built. I on the other hand see Stoner as someone who set goals and use the latest technology to achieve them.
This is something I think they don't realize, Stoner tried to make the WWSD2020 and failed because of, at the time, technology limitations.
I recall an interview with the CEO of Black & Decker where he said (something along the lines of) they don't sell 1/4" drills, they sell 1/4" holes.
Colt even tried a polymer lower early on, but the tech just wasn't there yet.
@@colemanmoore9871 Colt also tried to make the A1 not to the specs designed and fucked up several things
I wouldn't call myself a traditionalist. I think there are improvements to be made with the AR-15, especially what the military uses. I just don't think the WWSD is an "improvement".
limited by the technology he had available
I love mine. It's an excellent rifle.
Everybody involved has such a massive amount of hands on experience, if you hate it, you haven't handled or shot one.
My WWSD 2020 just came in this week. Very excited to get to the range in a couple of days to see how it performs! And yes, even knowing it was going to be light, I was shocked how light it was. Great review, guys!
Okay so the rifle can shoot but can we just take a moment to appreciate Henry’s group’s. My god the man can shoot.
2:27
Dude, that succession of hits is quite amazing, really tight groups really quick, I wonder how Ian and Karl will work with the AK platform, saw they had a similar project WWKD, hope they keep going, like rethink the AR-18, the Stoner-63 rifle, maybe even a what would Garand do...
The performance speaks for its self, the rifle performed well in competition, at range and on a spec sheet.
I finally got mine put together and took it to 3 Gun last month. I handed it to the RO at one point and he exclaimed "What is this thing, a Super Soaker?" He was so surprised by how light it was that it caught him off guard.
Love the levity/ humor y'all bring along with sticking to facts and not fuddlore.
Incredible shooting! I had some of my friends scoff at the kp15 lower being polymer. I forget who did the video but there's a guy on yt who shot the crap out of his WWSD, did pull-ups and push ups off of it then ran it over with a truck. The handguard did flatten but the gun shot fine after.
It was Iain Harrison from RecoilTV, vice InRange. Karl traded Ian for Iain. That was also a special full auto pre-prod version made by KE.
7:55 - Just a bunch of keyboard warriors parroting about old misconceptions. Some people are also missing the point of the WWSD rifle: Ian stated it was meant more as making a light AR but with good quality and durability not a tanky indestructable machine gun
Exactly. The whole point of the WWSD 2020 project was to see what could be done to bring Eugene Stoner’s original vision for the AR-15 using the latest materials and manufacturing technologies.
Yep. Which is why I'm a bit puzzled when I see people commenting that they'd rather stick with their aluminium lower, 12lb bomemoths with non free floated quad rails, rather than pay the same for a very lightweight and accurate rifle. But I don't think people like that understand the purpose of the WWSD project.
@@buckaroobonsi555 OHHHHH look found the keyboard warrior
@@the7observer I agree with a lot of what buckaroobonsi555 said, just not the tone of it.
The issue is that by calling it "What Would Stoner Do" they are implying that a guy who was tasked with designing a military weapon would build the WWSD for a military application.
Shit breaks in the military. There's the old joke about locking a Marine in a padded cell with two bowling balls. An hour later on ball is mission and the other is broken. It's a lot easier to replace a stock or a grip than to order an entire new lower for your gun.
There is also the issue that the military switched from a fixed stock to an adjustable one, because not every enlisted person has the same length arms.
I bought an AR that both me an my wife could use. With the stock fully extended, it's a bit short for me, but with it fully collapsed, it's a bit long for my wife.
BUIS are on modern rifles for a reason. Their weight in negligible and, as stated earlier, shit breaks.
If Ian or Karl's optic goes down, they lose the match. Having BUISs for them doesn't help that. If a soldier's optic breaks, they can (hopefully) get to cover, rip it off, and use their irons.
As mentioned in the video, a monolithic top rail is basically standard anymore, as 99% of the stuff that gets mounted there is used for accuracy. I'd take an extra pound of weight just to know that my POI isn't going to shift weirdly if I have to prop my gun up on a rock. Ian and Karl rarely shoot past a few hundred yards, and they are usually shooting an man sized plates at that range. Soliders are shooting at dudes hiding behind cars/walls/etc. poking half their head out. They need that accuracy. That's basically my only complaint on the fore-end, though.
I'm not going to say there isn't stuff wrong with the modern M4s. Most of that is due to the military not wanting to spend a bunch of money to tweak some stuff that "works". The WWSD, isn't an improvement. It's just different.
I also don't like the people comparing the WWSD rifle to the M4 like people compare the M14 to the M16. The M16 was a big deal. The WWSD is just a light AR-15.
@@theodorehunter4765 Well, they did give it the "inRange TV stamp of hubris" for a reason.
There's that "vintage" polymer rifle, too.
The Green Tupperware rifle; the StG 77 / Steyr AUG. Plastic stock, plastic hammer-pack, plastic mags; in SERVICE in the late 1970s. I'm guessing the Irish army had reasons to adopt it other than it wasn't British and it was GREEN.
Great video guys. Nice to see actual data be recorded and not speculated. Thanks again for the work.
I grabbed a WWSD rifle… and really see it as the next step in AR15 development. I grab it first before my HK, KAC, Geissele, or BCM AR15 now for the range. Hardest thing is thinking which optic to pair it with.
Great review on the accuracy of this concept. After watching Ian’s design and build video I was excited to see a 9 hole review. Such a shame we can’t own semiautomatic in the U.K.
I do like the KP-15 polymer lower receivers and I personally own a few of them. That said, I have also personally broken the buttstock completely off of a KP-15 lower; KE Arms warrantied the lower and I have no animosity with the company or the KP-15 lowers. The KP-15 lower that I broke happened while out on a hunt with an impact to the side of the buttstock. It’s interesting to me how so many people believe that the KP-15 is somehow unbreakable; reminds me of the unsinkable Titanic. I too am an Engineer and have an emphasis in polymers, composites, and nanotechnologies, I work in the polymer industry, and as a result I feel I have a rather good understanding of polymers and their limitations. That’s said also, I still feel the KP-15 is very well designed and I would not hesitate to continue to use mine, would purchase more KP-15 or KP-9 lowers in the future, but understand they are indeed breakable.
What I like best about this rifle is that it improves all of the good qualities of the AR & keeps me shooting 556/223, which keeps my training costs down. There are lots of new calibers available for AR's, which is great, but when things get expensive, I won't be training as much. Light, durable, accurate, & powerful enough to do the job. I have never seen someone take a carbine to 650 yds. After being a Paratrooper and a recent hunt in the mountains, I appreciate a light, handy rifle. I think Eugene Stoner would love what you guys did with his design. Great video!
I always watch this series lol...every video I have done. Glad to be here early this time.😀
You forgot the original plastic fantastic gun, the Steyr AUG. If that can stand up to Aussie squaddies then polymer is fine.
Is this too light and too fragile for a military assuming 10 year high intensity combat? Maybe
Is this too light and fragile for any type of civilian shooting? Nope.
I expect the people saying this is too fragile probably think the Colt 1911 is still the best handgun and the M14 was the equal of the FAL/G3
Is any military rifle out there going to go through 10 years of combat heavy service with out any problems or repairs? I don't think so and it's not as though the wwsd2020 is something wierd and new, it's an AR15, a lego gun.
@Random Pickle the FAL was far superior in every way to the M14. there is a reason the m14 is the shortest serving service rifle and the FAL is considered the arm of freedom
@Random Pickle like I said before the FAL is by far superior and there is a reason the M14 was the shortest serving military service rifle. And the weight is identical were are you getting the FAL weighed more and the FAL weights less 8.9 lbs compared to the M14 9.2 so again how are you getting the FAL Was heavier I don’t think you have any clue what you are taking about
It was fascinating to see the bullet travel in the video and to see the actual drop (trajectory) at the longer ranges.
Awesome to see you doing this rifle! Especially since my own WWSD just arrived at my gun shop today for me to pick up this weekend! 😁
Bought one of the kp15 lowers on a whim, it's great. Strong, stiff, light. The flared mag well is a big plus too. Might have to pick up a WWSD when budget allows.
The fact that rifle is only a lb heavier then an M1 carbine is amazing
Unloaded and with no optic WWSD is 4.99 lbs.
@@rileyschultz5608 not bad. only one i know close is the ati omni polymer upper and lower ar15. i think its like 5.5lbs.
@@frigglebiscuit7484 Don't get me wrong, there are even lighter ARs out there, but most are heavily compromised with lightened bolt carriers, skeletonized parts, etc.
The balance and reliability of the WWSD is what makes it fairly special.
I am from Europe so thank you for the metric and I also loved the intro as well
i like the starking contrast of the ultramodern lightweight AR15 resting on a wooden box of soviet 7.62 ammo.