As an old hot-rodder, I can safely say....it's not about the horse-power, it's about the torque...It's always about the torque...well done Honda, well done.
@@hackney7106 This old debate? Ignoring the mass of the car and any losses, acceleration (or towing force) is proportional to: (Engine Torque) * (Total Gear Ratio) ... or equivalently ... (Engine Power) / (Vehicle Speed) The only reason you can compare similar vehicles by their torque, is because practical construction means that they will have similar ranges of Total Gear Ratio. The reason Hot Rodders like to compare torque, is not because it is more significant; it actually isn't. It is because you can achieve values that are close to T_MAX over a relatively large range of rpms, whereas P_MAX comes at only one specific rpm value. Electric Vehicles - and yes, performance-wise these Honda hybrids are electric vehicles driven by the combination of a generator and a battery - are quite different. There is a speed that I'll call V_MAX. At that speed, the car can produce both maximum torque and maximum power. Below it, they can produce maximum torque, but their best power is P_MAX*V/V_MAX. This is why they are so quick off of the line. Above that speed, they can produce maximum power but their best torque is T_MAX*V_MAX/V. In the Accord and CR-V hybrids, V_MAX is about 37 mph. T_MAX=232 lb-ft and P_MAX=181 HP. In a Tesla Model S, V_MAX is between 43 mph and 49 mph, depending on which version.
@@hackney7106 No, you have accepted a very old, and very wrong, myth. There is some basis to it, but mostly due to the characteristics of an internal combustion engine. That is, not to this car. In this one, 232 lb-ft is all that matters at any speed below 37 mph, and 181 HP (or 212 if you compare it to an ICE) is all that matters at any speed above 37 mph.
This aligns very well with my experience driving a 2019 Accord Hybrid. Mileage is amazing around 65 mph (53 mpg) then takes a hit around 70 mph (39 mpg). Thanks for the clear explanation!
@@AdnanJeilani-g1n I have a 2020 accord hybrid. In the city, it highly depends on how you drive it. I accelerate gently, and use the paddles for the regenerative braking and get really good mpg when it's not cold. I'm getting 47 mpg mixed driving (60/40 highway/city) the last 2k miles, but it's been about 30 degrees in the morning during this period. I think when the lows are in the 60s, I'll get over 50 mpg average.
@@Apofuexgaming I can see how hypermiling these Accords' can really add to the MPG but man, it would be tough for me to do that all the time. I've known people to get around 38 if they drive it normal. Still, in the big scheme of things cars are so expensive nowadays gas mileage doesn't save us very much money, maybe 500 a year but the car cost tens of thousands of dollars, registration/taxes are in the thousands, insurance is another grand or two.
@@erichaynes7502 38 mpg would require a lead foot and cold weather. My wife doesn't pay attention at all to mpg and gets 40-44 mpg. I know the tourings get worse mpg (I have a base model) When I pay attention, I get into the 50s easily. If you like to drive aggressive, I don't think a hybrid would be your best bet. Last week, one of my best friends was shopping for a new accord, and I suggested he get the 2.0 turbo because he likes to get after it on the road. He ended up buying a 2.0 turbo sport. I don't care about the money savings a lot. I agree that for now, the savings don't make a ton of difference. I just don't feel the need to be in a hurry on the road, and it's like a game to me to get good mpg. I like using the paddle stoppers to slow down and see what my numbers are. I love the electric feel as well. The difference in price between an lx and the base hybrid will be recouped through gas savings, and the base hybrid has some advantages over the lx (remote start, 60/40 rear split seats)
@@Apofuexgaming Thanks Z, it's good to hear from someone who's driving the hybrid real world. I honestly didn't know that if you drive easy enough you can get 50 MPG and I do like that it has a remote start!
This system is silky smooth in my Accord. You only have to get used to an engine that revs independently of the speed of the car, but it's a very nice system.
That’s what I’m still getting used to….the engine running independently of what I’m doing. But I think in mine (2021) they try to simulate the engine revving up and down appropriately.
try a deasil train. they work that way too.-I think City buses should but the do not! I am surprised at this in the "enviormnetal" "friendly"" 2020s LOL
@@fucheduck I have a clarity its 4,000lbs, bigger than accord and it gets 45 mpg does 0 to 60 faster than any car I have had. Because you know more than the Honda engineers.
I don’t know what do you do for a living, but I strongly believe that you should become a professor teaching this kind of things. Clear, concise, complete. No bla blas, just what is necessary. A big thank you! Nick from Greece.
Honda calling this an eCVT is such is a disservice to the ingenuity that went into this powertrain. This is Honda engineering at its best! Instead, they should be flouting the fact that this system has no real transmission. That would be music to the ears of most buyers who have had to replace a probematic transmission before. Calling it an eCVT is the worst thing they can do.
Exactly! I have no idea why Honda would want to saddle this tech with the CVT moniker, even if they tack "e" to the front of it. People shy away from CVT, this seems far more straightforward and robust.
In engineering papers dating back to 2013 it is called a "electric-coupled CVT." That means that power is transmitted by electrons, not gears, chains, or belts. The ratio of input rpm to output rpm can be calculated, and it does vary continuously, but it is a completely meaningless number. For example, it is not a torque multiplier like it is in a mechanical transmission. But we don't live in a world of engineers. Honda still needs to put something recognizable on the "transmission type" line of spec sheets. The term "CVT" does explain some observed behavior, and Toyota already established "eCVT" as a transmission type. But a better name would be "vCVT", for "virtual CVT." That would accurately convey everything that is needed to be conveyed.
My wife just bought a new accord hybrid- It is taking a little getting used to- I found using the paddle shifters for breaking pretty cool. I love the car, it is super quiet.
Hello, my check engine light comes on when I drive through water 💦 on the road and the engine freezing up then spotter, what cause that , it’s 2004 Honda Fit
@@keyboard5494 it's a wet clutch. Something like you'd find in an automatic transmission. If you matain the fluid it should last the life of the vehicle.
Having that kind of knowledge is a positive thing but explaining it to others in such a simplified way takes it to another level. Finally someone who keeps it simple and yet makes 100% sense. Thanks a lot.
Clear a Professional does not have to love what they do, but in Alex's case he does. It shows in every video. Thanks Alex for making a very complicated hybrid system, into much more understandable data driven solution.
For context, the Honda Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) in the original 3 cylinder Insight coupé hybrid essentially replaced the flywheel with a pancake electric motor generator. That was light and simple, but being bolted to the engine like a flywheel, it could not drive the wheels without the engine rotating. A 2 motor hybrid with a clutch is more complicated but enables the engine to be decoupled from the wheels and stationary while an electric motor drives the wheels. 😎
Well, for better context, what you describe is called a parallel hybrid. It's the the method used by the 54 mpg Hyundai Elantra. They have a motor bolted to the flywheel, but they also add a clutch that allows the motor to drive the wheels alone, and a second motor-generator attached just to the engine to start it (the other purpose of Honda's pancake motor). But it surprises many people that "motor driving the wheels alone" uses more gas than any other mode. All of the energy in the battery comes from gas, and the extra conversions needed to charge the battery add the most loss. Here's what Honda realized from that failed experiment: The main benefit of a hybrid is that an ICE might be only 25% to 30% efficient during cruise, but is 40% efficient if it charges the battery during cruise. So it uses 25% more gas to get 50% more output. But to use that, they have to let the battery's charge go up and regularly. Without that clutch, they had to drop down to 30% once the battery was charged. The Civic's serial system lets it vary just about any time.
I've listened to other videos trying to explain the hybrid systems in my Accord. This is the only one that makes sense of it all and fully explains under which circumstances, what motors are running. I thought that when the gas motor kicked in it was always powering the wheels.
You are the kind of TH-camr we need. Thank you for making videos like this, just what we really need. Just awesome perfect and real information we need for reviews. Lot of respect for your work.
I test drove a CR-V EX Hybrid this past weekend on Long Island. I found the hybrid system to be seamless and inconspicuous for the most part. The engine kicks on automatically and does it's own thing when the battery gauge runs low. The tachometer is replaced with a similar, arcing gauge that records power usage and charging with a marker delimiting the two. The fuel gauge for the engine is to the right. The push button shifter is pretty much easy to use once you get used to it and clears up some space on the console. The EX-L gets a heated steering wheel on the Hybrid, a plus from the previous year when it was only available on the Touring. The ride was more or less very similar to the gas only model, but I didn't push the car too much. I took it on the highway and it performed nicely, the engine cycling on and off to generate amps for the main motor and the battery. The dealer said that the motor would shift on and off at highway speeds depending on the sped I was going, hills, etc. I found the only way to tell if the motor was running was on a hill when it droned and on the highway, when the gauge showed the power usage farther beyond the demarcation point of charging. The dynamic resistance braking is from paddle shifters like truck Jake Brakes. You toggle more resistance and the car visibly slows down on exit ramps, while the battery fuel gauge visibly gains. Once at a full stop, the system resets to zero the regenerative braking effort automatically. I detected no discernible difference in what was motivating the CR-V at highway speeds versus local speeds. The air conditioning is electrically run, so when stopped and the engine's off, the AC compressor still provides chilled air from the battery. When the battery is low, the engine kicks on to run the AC system compressor electrically. I am not sure how the heat works, but the dealer said i can remote start the engine on cold mornings to generate heat. He added that in cold weather, when starting off in EV mode, the car will automatically warm up the engine before it is required for electrical generation work. Downside: Not the car, but the dealer who slapped a $1000 extra charge to the MSRP because of the rarity of the CR-V Hybrid. That prevented me from purchasing the CR-V then and there. The CR-V Hybrid is available across all trims of the the CR-V and in only a AWD format. It adds $1200 to the base price. The dealer adds another grand to the mix to make the car pretty expensive. I can wait. Looking forward Alex to your full test drive and I'd appreciate some commentary on the price gouging happening with Honda dealers in the USA.
Wow! Good review and it sucks the dealer put a premium on it. They will find out soon enough that people are not buying a lot of cars now and that prices WILL come down. I saw prices at this dealership in Georgia to be MUCH less than msrp. www.heritageromehonda.com/vehicle-details/new-2020-honda-cr-v-hybrid-ex-l-rome-ga-id-35416937
I have owned a Clarity for about 6 months and could never find a good explanation on their transmission type until now. I was told that it was a direct drive but was confused as to why Honda called it an E-CVT. Thanks for the explanation.
To Honda, "eCVT" means "electrically coupled CVT." As Alex explained, that means that in most situations the engine's contribution to propulsion is not mechanical. It is by generating electricity to power the motor, and the ratios of engine rpms to wheel rpms varies continuously. Toyota means something different when they say "eCVT." It is "electronically controlled CVT." It's complicated, but they have a three-way transmission connecting the engine and two motor-generators. By controlling the electricity to and from the motor-generators, they vary the same ratio continuously.
@@jeffjo8732 Hello, I have a question. Is the e-cvt transmission used in this new 1.5 cc Honda Jazz exactly the same system as the e-cvt used in the 1.8 cc Toyota Corolla sedan or is it a different system? The reason why I asked this was they said that the risk of deterioration of the e-cvt system used in Corolla is less than the normal CVT. Do you think we will have problems with the e-cvt gearbox if we buy Jazz?
Thanks for pointing out what I perceive to be a fundamental weakness of many/most hybrid vehicles, that being their [lack of] performance above 65 - 70 mph. My former 2016 Sonata hybrid was gangbusters up to about 65 mph; delivering 45+ mpg. At about 70 or so, it would still get in the low 40s, but over 70, it lacked any gumption whatsoever and fuel efficiency plummeted to the low 30s. Moreover, the engine was much more vocal, making a less-than-pleasant driving experience.
Now that im looking at a hybrid for my wife and we're buying an accord im reallt glad i watched this video because i do not like buying things without understanding what im getting . This was amazingly informative and im glad you made it simple enough for people unfamiliar with hybrid technology to understand
Alex, I'd like to know why/how the MDX, NSX, and RLX hybrid systems differ...they're all 6 cylinders, but different bore and stroke and layout, longitudinal vs transverse.
I'm in the UK. I got my CR-V Hybrid mid-2019 after owning a manual Accord. Love it. Very, very smooth power delivery. Instant power when pulling away from the lights. Like my Accord, UK CR-Vs are built in Japan so I don't know if there are differences to CR-Vs built in North America with regards to suspension settings, etc. but mine corners really well for an SUV, very little body roll and good damping over speed bumps, etc. There's a Sport setting if you want more power or an Eco setting if you want fuel economy. I get about 45 miles per Imperial gallon. If I want to blast around the country lanes I borrow my wife's manual Mini Cooper S with the supercharger. But, I'm sold on the CR-V Hybrid.
Historically, US market cars tended to have a softer suspension setup than European ones for more comfort at the expense of cornering but I don't know if that's still true.
No. Speed limit is 120 or 130 on 90% of all markets with exception of Germany and some american places. Every two DL of fuel dispatched on the market will generate more than 10'000 deaths a year.
Mitsubishi perfected this hybrid system long ago so should be reliable. I don't have it but my friend's Mitsubishi outlander PHEV is amazing. Interior feels like 75K car. Mitsubishi/Nissan may not last for long as a company so I did not buy.
Some clarification in the case of the the Clarity PHEV. In normal mode, as long as there is a charge in the battery, the ICE will *never* actually be clutched to the drive wheels and 100% of the propulsive force will _always_ be provided by the electric motor. There is no instance where the car will use the ICE to drive the wheels when the car is operated in normal mode and there is charge in the battery pack. Now the Clarity has a "Hybrid" mode, but this is not the default mode for the car. It is an option that the driver selects via a push button. When the driver selects this mode, the the car will sometime (light load and steady speeds) lock the the ICE to the axle, but even here, the ICE lacks the torque to drive the car up even a slight hill, and in most cases, the clutch will unlock and the electric motor will propel the car while the ICE re-supplies current to the battery. Even when the Clarity is in Hybrid mode and running at highway speeds, the ICE is not always providing the propulsive force and in my ownership experience, the electric motor is often still providing the propulsive force even when the car is in Hybrid mode, with the ICE simply re-supplying the battery with the current being drawn by the traction motor and the car environmental, entertainment, steering, and other systems. In this mode, the battery charge program will attempt to maintain the battery at whatever state of charge it was at when the car was switched to Hybrid mode. For example, if there were 14 bars showing on the battery state of charge display, the ICE would turn on and off and run switch between ICE and EM propulsion as necessary to keep the 14 bar state of charge. Also, if the charge were to drop to two bars, the ICE will come on to charge the batteries but once again, the electric motor is still by far and away the primary propulsion source and here, the motor will generally sit at a fast idle and simply keep running as necessary to keep the battery from going completely flat, which can damage the battery. The power system though is as shown, but the Clarity in normal mode never* turns on the ICE except if the driver presses hard on the accelerator, in which case the ICE comes on, but only to provide additional current to the electric motor. Even under hard acceleration, the ICE does not clutch to the drive and all of the propulsion is done by the electric motor with the ICE simply adding extra current (the battery pack can['t provide enough current for the electric motor to develop full horsepower so the difference comes from the ICE). * There may be instances where the ICE does turn on in the "background" on the Clarity. This seems to be done as part of a diagnostic routine. Others report it, but I have never experienced it on my Clarity. It appears that the motor comes on, gives a message that it is in calibration mode, and after some period of time turns off, but no one seems to know the exact conditions that trigger this behavior. I have owned my Clarity PHEV for 20 months and have never experienced this conditions myself, but others report it. The proof of the above is that I can go indefinitely in the Clarity without having to put gas in the tank because in my local driving, I never go more than about 50 miles and I never accelerate so hard as to make the ICE come on to supply extra current to the motor, so the only propulsion I use is the electric motor and this is at all speeds from 0 to 75 MPH (which is as fast as I ever drive the car). So, while the general flow of power as presented in this video is the same for the Clarity, in normal mode, the ICE never comes on at all unless the driver demands fully horsepower from the electric motor, at which time the ICE comes on and steps up to a very high RPM to drive the generator to provide the additional current needed by the motor (Clarity owners call this the "Angry Bees" mode because of the high noise level associated with the small ICE spinning very fast to provide the additional current).
Well, as an owner of the Insight I need to tell you about the real world. The Insight crushes the Prius at lower speeds, say 45 and under. It will get 65 mpg easily and consistently depending on the terrain your driving. At higher speeds, 65 to 70 the Prius will beat the Insight. The Insight does not like high speeds at all. The clutch often disengages at highway speeds to generate more power for the electric motor to consume. The engine drones on loudly.
At high speeds clutch frequent disengages are there by i-mmd design, to get extra percent of mpg by pushing engine to optimum rev and torque zone via extra load from generator. Then stoping engine and driving on battery. About every minute cycles. Although makes sense and most likely also can be used in toyota hybrids too, raises question on battery and clutch life expectancy for those extra percents to show in specs. I would prefer it optionally disabled.
@@aka7kak8 Hello, I have a question. Is the e-cvt transmission used in this new 1.5 cc Honda Jazz exactly the same system as the e-cvt used in the 1.8 cc Toyota Corolla sedan or is it a different system? The reason why I asked this was they said that the risk of deterioration of the e-cvt system used in Corolla is less than the normal CVT. Do you think we will have problems with the e-cvt gearbox if we buy Jazz?
@@attilakhan4606 toyotas hybriddrive or honda e-cvt (i-mmd) both are likely to be much more reliable than regular cvt. However honda by design using clutch in 80-120kmh range to periodically connect ICE directly to wheels, thats a every light wear due to matched rotation speeds but still a candidate for mechanical fail in long run. I prefer honda hybrid due to comfort in the city driving, but toyotas hybrid is more efficient
@@aka7kak8 yes but someone says toyota hybrid may have longer life thats why i wonder as both car very expensive in my country i need to choose one which is lower risky about having problem technically
I own a 2018 Clarity, and I can say that when the little gear isn't present on screen while on the highway (meaning the engine is producing electricity to then power the motor, not driving the wheels directly), the fuel economy is definitely decreased. The range where the engine can directly power the wheels is from about 45-75mph. That is definitely the sweet spot for best fuel economy. Also, now knowing the smaller motor generates power from the engine makes sense. When using the car in cold winter without a battery charge, the engine has to warm up to temperature before being used to drive the car in any manner (parallel or serial hybrid). But once the engine gets to temperature it ROARS SO LOUD for about 30 seconds no matter the speed you're driving in order to recharge the battery back to ~10% (using the heat and then driving for about three minutes before the engine gets up to temperature depletes the hybrid battery WAY below the 10% threshold level I assume. Because it sounds like the Clarity puts the engine at full power to recharge the hybrid battery at all costs to maintain a healthy battery and keep it from reaching too low.). I would say that is the Charity's downfall in my opinion, the loud and harshness of the engine after needing to charge battery or drive vehicle in cold climate after start up. I wish it was like the Volt and could start the engine while pre heating the car with no battery charge so it wouldn't then operate at 6,000 rpm it sounds once it gets to temperature on the road. It is also an inconvenience to not be able to preheat or precool the cabin unless plugged in to a 240v charger or have a battery charge. Don't see why the Clarity can't start engine and use its generated electricity to cycle on and off like normal to then heat/cool the cabin.
My theory is that Honda doesn't allow the Clarity to cut on the gas engine while preconditioning as a safety measure to avoid potential carbon monoxide poisoning if the car is started in a closed garage. I can see people starting preconditioning with 5-10% SOC thinking it's safe to do so in an enclosed garage, and the Clarity switching to the gas engine a few minutes in and someone who doesn't expect that to happen getting a very unhealthy dose of CO before the 30-minute climate cutoff kicks in.
So I have a 2014 Honda Accord plug in hybrid (rare version). I think if I’m not mistaken, that it achieves peak horsepower when accelerating from a stop, but only after the VTEC jumps in. Here’s how I feel it when accelerating via on-ramps: 1)immediately feel power from battery pack 2)engine spools up and feel some more power from it 3)engine hits VTEC and runs all the way to redline, when it hits peak you definitely feel it.
Here's the corrected math Alex asked for at about 8:00. I'm including lots of details you can skip if you want to. The outer diameter of a tire on my Accord Hybrid is about 25 inches. This means it takes (5280*12)/(25*pi)=807 tire revolutions to go one mile. On my 2017 CR-V, it is 28.5 inches. I don't know what the hybrid CR-V has. The O.D. gear ratio is 0.805; the final drive ratio is 3.421. In Engine Drive, my Accord takes 0.805*3.421*807=2222 engine revolutions per mile. For every 1000 rpms, the car will be going (1000*60)/2222=27 mph. (On larger CR-V tires, this could go up to 30 mph). Check: According to Honda, the ICE is most efficient at 2000 rpms and about 75% throttle, which is 33.7 horsepower. This is 54 mph on my hybrid Accord, which is what Alex would call a gentle highway speed. (It has a BSFC of 208.1 g/kWh, which Honda says is 40.8% efficient.) The peak 143 horsepower is reached at 6200 rpm, which is 167 mph (or more with larger tires). The car will never go that fast. So what Alex describes as the the conditions needed for 212 HP *can* *never* *happen*. Not even close. I'm not saying that this isn't the way Honda arrived at 212 horsepower, I'm saying it is a useless number if it was. And I hope the method is different. I'm also not suggesting that the power it does have is insufficient; my Accord reaches 60 mph about a half second sooner than a hybrid Camry with 208 horsepower combined. At 3000 rpm (81 to 90 mph), Honda's data says the BSFC goes down to about 212 g/kWh at about 55 horsepower. This is still above 40% efficient, so this doesn't explain lost mpg at such speeds. But Alex is wrong about one thing: the battery is still used to gain efficiency on the highway, even at speeds above "gentle". I'm not sure why Honda has stopped including this in marketing releases, but it is described in older ones like global.honda/innovation/technology/automobile/hybrid/i-MMD-picturebook.html (watch the video at about 20 seconds in). That 33.7 horsepower is more than my Accord needs to cruise at 54 mph. So the car alternates between splitting the 33.7 HP between propulsion and charging, and running in EV mode. This gains maybe 10 mpg. +++++ Reference: Honda Technical Paper titled "Development of 2.0 L Engine for New Accord Hybrid," Takeshi Wakamatsu, et. al..
I've seen some reviews that show the Accord being faster than the Camry, but so what, nobody drags a hybrid. I've noticed that the car alternates between ICE and EV even at 70 to 75 mph.
@@benholdaway7570 My point was that it has good power, better that another car which claims 208 HP, no matter how the 212 HP number is calculated. But "Hybrid" does not mean "underpowered," even if "Prius" does. And there are some you could drag.
My guess is that the maximum combined power is only theoretical. They thought they could sell more if they are closer to Toyota's hybrid numbers. They changed this for the latest models. Fit hybrid maximum combined is the same as its traction motor hp.
@@philipmanolas2270 Before the 2020 model year, the Fit hybrid used a DCT transmission, not the iMMD system Alex describes here. I don't know its specs. In 2021, they renamed the hybrid version the Jazz, and put the e:HEV badge on it. The engine has 71 kW of power, and the combined total is 90 kW.
@@jeffjo8732 Honda did what i am describing with other models that used the immd transmission, stating a theoretical maximum hp when the system is powered only from the traction motor when you go full throttle.
@@williamwheaton8117 The idea is actually pretty poor. A Diesel, running at low RPMs would make a far more efficient source of generator fuel, and the low final gear reduction ratio makes the engine rev far too high at highway speeds, making it loud and less efficient, while putting extra strain on the engine parts. What it needs is a Diesel power plant (NA) and a tiny CVT for final gear ratios… say two of them, one for 40-60mph and one even lower, for above 60mph speeds.
Awesome video Alex! Just to add a few notes after owning and driving a 2015 Hybrid Touring for 160k. Befor that thou I want to say this powertrain is the most robust and full proof I've ever seen or drove. While Alex said something about EV being limited to around 45 mph, I can confirm that the Electric systems will run up to 80mph without cranking over the engine, depending on load. The hybrid system uses an advanced load algorithm to optimize power to the ground and efficiency at any speed. I've also experienced what feels like 200+ hp at very low speeds, but only when the battery pack is completely full and you go full send on the gas. Out of curiosity, I will by dyno testing my hybrid to see what kind of numbers, load ranges, and mph the vehicle can do. Cant wait for the next gen of this powerplant!
A couple of terms need to be clarified, and one added, before I can reply to this. If only to remove some ambiguity: 1. *EV Drive* : running on the electric motors and battery power. 2. *Hybrid* *Drive* : running on the electric motors and battery+generator power. 3. *Motor* *Drive* : either EV or Hybrid Drive. 4. *Engine* *Drive* : running on ICE power (adjusted to best efficiency by motor+battery) 5. *EV* *mode* : telling the computer to prefer EV Drive by pressing thr EV button. (You didn't use it, but it confuses people sometimes.) What Alex said, was that Motor Drive is used _exclusively_ below about 40-45 mph, and that Engine Drive _can_ be used above 40-45 mph. You are right that Motor Drive can also be used above those speeds; and in fact it quite often is used. Hybrid Drive is used when passing, and EV Drive is used when there is plenty of charge in the battery. But you haven't experienced 200+ HP at low speeds - you have experienced 200+ lb-ft of torque. And that much torque doesn't need the battery below about 30 mph. This is because the motor is torque limited below about 37 mph. The maximum power of the motor is the smaller of (181, MPH/5). But 30 HP gives you as much acceleration at 10 mph, as 180 HP does at 60 mph.
@@thejake8099 we like that Honda invests in GM for their future. Honda and GM also reportedly expect collaboration to shorten development times of plug-in hybrid powertrains. The Japanese firm expects to gain insight from GM, which it views as more experienced in the field. And GM expects the partnership to give it a competitive advantage over other automakers in the plug-in hybrid segment. It plans to launch its Cadillac CT6 plug-in hybrid luxury sedan before the end of this year, using an adaptation of the 2016 Chevrolet Volt powertrain that is also used without a plug in the 2016 Chevy Malibu Hybrid. www.greencarreports.com/news/1101858_honda-to-cooperate-with-gm-on-plug-in-hybrid-technology
nice video, good job explaining everything. i test drove a crv hybrid & liked it quite a bit. but i bought a hybrid rav4 bcuz i felt it’s hybrid system operated a hair smoother. it is awsum in the snow, and i average 42mpg combined in summer (44 in city only), and about 35 combined in winter. it’s awsum, and i’m sure either car is a winning choice. i don’t think i will ever drive a non hybrid again… ever
I was looking for RAV4 hybrid but they were not available. The 2024 Honda CRV’s were finally coming onto the lots which were +$2K over MSRP Sept-Nov 2024, but mid Dec 2024 I landed a Sport Touring for -$650 under MSRP end of Q and end of year. LOVE IT! MPG is getting better with warmer weather and no remote start needed. Mega Dittos will never buy a NON Hybrid again! Thanks bro.
It actually is pretty easy to make a block diagram of the system, although it does miss one physical aspect of the layout. That may be why Alex says it is difficult to diagram. It emphasizes a point I think Alex is leaving out; the one that Ben Holdaway hinted at, but didn't explain in depth. While showing his diagram at 5:10, Alex says that enabling the clutch allows the engine to drive the wheels "without involving either electric motor." This is effectively true (but literally false) for the smaller one he called the generator. The generator is still connected to the engine, and spins with it. But it is disconnected electrically, so it spins freely and has no affect on the drivetrain. Not only is it false for the drive motor, it is impossible. The moving part of that motor, called the rotor, is actually one of the gears that transfers mechanical power to the wheels. (The 0.805 gear ratio Alex mentions is between the gear that drives the rotor, and the countershaft.) "Parallel hybrid mode" is accomplished by applying electromagnetic force to that rotor. By reversing that effect, the motor turns into a generator and is used to charge the battery in parallel mode. When cruising at "gentle speeds," the engine runs at a higher level of power than is needed to maintain speed, but that is more efficient. So the motor will pull the excess power off of the drivetrain to charge the battery. Two simple corrections will make Alex's diagram more accurate: mechanical power is sent from the clutch to the motor, not directly to the wheels. And electrical power can flow in either direction between the motor and the battery. Two other minor corrections are possible, to represent other modes of operation. Regenerative braking is done by the motor, so power can flow from the wheels to it. And the generator acts as the starter motor, powered by the battery.
@@philipmanolas2270 I think he comprehends it well enough, but suffers from one of my pet peeves (that I'm trying to help him to see). HEV operation is too often explained in terms of the results, instead of the design goals. For example, "HEVs charge their batteries with regenerative braking" is a result, and quite true. But it is not the only way, nor the most important design goal. The myth that HEVs don't gain efficiency when cruising on the highway, which Alex perpetuates here, is based on thinking it is the most important way. It's just harder to explain that the main goal is to run the engine at a higher efficiency. The Accord/CR-V accomplishes this by running its engine as close to 2000 rpm and 35 HP as it can, where it is over 40% efficient. When this engine speed and power does not correspond to car speed and drag in parallel mode, the car changes to serial mode to stay near 40% efficiency. It could drop below 30% if it stayed in parallel mode. That's why the 80% electrical efficiency figure Alex cites isn't as important as he claims; 40%*80% is still greater than 30%. For comparison, the Camry/RAV4 has a larger engine that gets 40% thermal efficiency near about 2700 rpm and 65 HP. I can't claim to know how well it stays near this 40%, but it has to be harder since it would have to charge the battery at 2 to 3 times the rate the Accord/CR-V does on the highway. So I believe the 80% electrical efficiency Alex mentions has a similar drop in engine thermal efficiency for those Toyotas. But I don't claim to know for certain, only that they get similar mileage so it seems reasonable.
Awesome channel. I didn't know about some of the other technologies you mentioned - but now I'm even more glad I bought the Honda Clarity Plugin-Hybrid EV. Like you said, the big EV motor provides the torque needed for everyday driving (and then some). And as you note, the regen-braking is flawless. Literally I cannot tell when the difference between it and friction brakes, except for the nice regen gauge that tells me I'm putting power back into the battery. Now if only someone could get the word "hybrid" out of the consumer lexicon and emphasize the "EV" instead, these cars might sell even better :-)
Thank you for this very enlightening and informative video. I am about to take the leap from traditional diesel-engined cars to possibly a hybrid-engined car (the new Honda Jazz/Fit Hybrid) in the challenging Finnish climate. Your very professional video helped me figure out many details about the new Honda technology. Thanks again, best regards!
I would be worried about the electric battery energy retention in the winter. It just isn’t that good. Also, if the car uses engine antifreeze to heat the interior, then it will run the engine most if the time just to keep up the operating temperature (in the cold times), which kills fuel efficiency. I would not rush into a hybrid unless it had an electric heat pump and a NiH battery.
One thing that seems to confuse a lot of people about hybrids is the fact that the output of the electric motor is limited not only by the motor itself but also by how much electrical energy can be delivered to it. The battery alone can’t deliver enough to get the full 180 hp out of the traction motor; it’s augmented by power from the generator unit too. So if the engine is mechanically coupled to the output and 100% of its torque is used as tractive effort, the traction motor can only output a fraction of its rated 180 hp because it’s limited by what the battery can discharge.
But the engine cannot ever be "mechanically coupled to the output" at the 6200 rpms where the claimed 212 HP occurs. It corresponds to a car speed of over 165 mph. In short, if the engine is running at 6200 rpm, the clutch must be disengaged. So if the hybrid system produces 212 HP to the wheels when the engine is running at 6200 rpm, it is coming from the traction motor only. That's why the combination I suggested before could make sense. As I said before, I don't understand where the 212 HP number comes from, but I do know what it can't be. It isn't the sum of the motor power and the engine power at 6200 rpm, because they can't be added at that speed. Another thought I've had is that it is the sum of the traction motor HP rating and the (unpublished) generator HP rating. That would account for it being the same in the Clarity. But it is meaningless.
@@pmo5821 Let's compare what Honda says about two cars that both have the 181 HP, 232 LB-FT traction motors: Accord Engine: 143 HP at 6200 rpm, 212 HP combined at 6200 rpm. Clarity Engine: 103 HP at 5500 rpm, 212 HP combined at 5500 rpm. If the clutch is engaged, the Accord is doing 167 mph at 6200 rpm. If the tire size in the Clarity is the same, it is doing 148 mph. If the tires aren't the same, that number is close enough. The point is that the advertised 212 HP for both is at the engine speed where the maximum engine power is achieved. It is an impossible speed if the clutch is engaged, and more than the stated HP of the electric motor alone if the clutch is not engaged.
@@jeffjo8732 I'm starting to think that the 212 "system HP" might be still be somewhat relevant in that it accelerates similarly to a traditional ICE setup with 212 HP. While the drivetrain loss itself isn't enough to bridge the gap between 212 and 181 HP, a traditional ICE also has to run accessories like the water pump, alternator, power steering, air conditioning, etc. that all consume some small but not insignificant amount of power. It's actually quite common for cars to only put down ~85% of the rated engine HP to the ground during dyno tests - the remaining 15% is absorbed by some combination of drivetrain loss (which should be quite low in modern cars) and accessory drives. The excess power that's discharged from the generator + battery that can't be put through the 181 HP traction motor would be used to run these accessories (or in the case of the alternator, replace it entirely). As to why the Accord and Clarity achieve the same 212 "system HP" despite different motor and battery sizes, it may well be that the larger battery is designed to discharge exactly the right amount of power to make up for the smaller ICE.
As always great explanation! Can you please also do a video explaining the Kia/Hyundai hybrid and compare it to the others with pros and cons. The upcoming Hybrid Kia Sorento looks very interesting with a1.6L turbo/hybrid producing around 230hp. Hopefully you can also dive into this setup.
I have rewatched this video so many times. I think it's a good thing because I start to grasp what you re saying more and more each time. The more I think about it, the more impressed I am with how Honda is approaching the hybrid powertrain. By definition, Honda hybirds are "Extended Range Electric Vehicles", but shit, it may as well be, assuming go all-in providing a proper battery and powerful drive motor.
An "Extended Range *_Battery_* Electric Vehicle" waits until the battery's State of Charge drops below some threshold, and then uses an ICE (that is inadequate to drive the car) to re-charge to the battery. It can not propel the car, either mechanically or electrically. The Honda hybrid powertrain is not a BEV-Rex. It is a "Battery+Generator" EV. The ICE-driven generator (the ICE is small, but not inadequate) is the main source of electrical power for the motor, regardless of SoC. The point is not to charge the battery, it is to let the engine produce power at the most efficient level possible. So it runs at this efficient level, and the battery adjusts the power up or down as needed. The ICE can also propel the car mechanically when it is more advantageous to do so.
@@jeffjo8732 thanks for the additional info, the clutch system that engages at the 6th gear ratio is definitely solving the problems of CVTs and electric motors at once, both have good low end torque but unable to sustain highway speeds efficiently. What you stated is the distinction, and thank you for providing that, context in case someone did get confused. I am expecting people to know the subtle differences to enjoy the humor in my comment.
Just theorycrafting here, but it seems an advantage of Honda's IMMD system is that there is some more freedom in the placement of the traction motor. For instance, a narrower but longer traction motor could be mounted in the central tunnel where the transmission of a longitudinal layout would normally sit, and have it drive either the front, rear, or both axles. This would cut down the width of the "transaxle" portion of the hybrid system, which can still retain a mechanical top gear and clutch pack connected to the front axle. This would make it feasible to package a larger ICE & generator combo if higher performance is desired, and the traction motor would have quite a bit more headroom too to scale up or down. There would probably be space for a 2 or 3-speed gearbox for the traction motor to widen the efficient operating range of the serial hybrid mode, and make the mechanical top gear even taller to improve high-speed cruising. After all, the Lexus multistage hybrid system manages to stuff a 4-speed auto gearbox, 2 motor generators, a planetary gearset, and bellhousing and flywheel all in that space. My conjecture is that Honda's high-speed efficiency is lowered in part due to the fixed ratio between the large traction motor and the wheels. As rotor RPM nears its upper limit there are significant iron losses in PMAC motors as the permanent magnets spin past the stator teeth.
wonderful explanation of how this system works. 4 years after this video it seems the mpg is not quite on par with rivals but still pretty good compared to the gas only versions.
You can't just compare the mpgs, you need to look at other differences. The Honda hybrid system is more efficient, but they also give you more car which drops them about 2 mpg. And each mpg amounts to maybe $15/year in gas (at 12K miles, $3/gal). So this is really picking nits. But only you can decide if the larger, faster car is worth that to you. The Accord has 123 ft^3 (106 pass.+17 cargo) interior space to the Camry's to 115 ft^3 (100+15). The Civic has 114 ft^3 (99+15) to the Corolla's 102 ft^3 (89+13). The CR-V has 145 ft^3 (106+39) to the RAV4's 137 ft^3 (99+38) Then there is about 2 more mpg for each inch of wheel diameter A Camry LE on 16" wheels is rated at 51 (53 city, 50 hwy) mpg. It also has very narrow tires. A Camry SE on 18" wheels is rated at 47 (48, 47) mpg. An Accord EX-L on 17" wheels is rated at 48 (51, 44) mpg. An Accord SPORT on 19" wheels is rated at 44 (46, 41) mpg. And BTW, it is the fake shifts that kill the Accord's highway ratings. They were put in to appease reviewers who don't understand that it is an Electric Vehicle at heart, so it doesn't care about shifting gears. The closest direct comparison is the Civic SPORT to the Camry SE. They are almost the same size, and on the same tires. The Civic gets 49 (50, 47) mpg compared to 47 (48, 47) mpg.
Hey Alex, I appreciate you taking the time to explain these things. Details are interesting, and nobody else seems to think they're worth discussing. I would be very interested in the Acura hybrid setup and how that works in the MDX and RLX. Thanks again.
New CRV without the turbo and CVT should make for a better CUV. Oil dilution problems from the turbo and peculiar CVT feel could make the product woes of the current CRV a thing of the past.
The 3rd generation Insight is really a Civic with a slightly different look. All they are doing when they redesign the Civic, is making the similarity official by dropping the Insight and replacing it with a Civic Hybrid. I'm guessing this was part of the original plan, to put a clear separation between the (old) IMA hybrid system, which wasn't very successful, and the (new) iMMD hybrid system.
I own a 2024 Accord Touring Edition hybrid and I love it! I don't remember if you mentioned it or not but Honda engineers programmed the non-existent transmission to "go through the gears"! When you accelerate hard it simulates shifting gears. I guess to keep owners happy. Well by now you know the Honda two motor e-CVT has changed again! ( Gen-3 to Gen-4 ) I think operation is the same but the electric motors are no longer stacked on a common shaft. I understand they mounted the drive motor behind the generator to reduce the width of the unit. Just wanted to say thanks and I found your video to be very helpful in understanding the Honda system!
It's hard to understand why people associate the temporary loss of power that produces those sounds, with increased power. Those simulated shifts are why the Gen-4 version has slower times, and worse mpgs, despite improved engine and motor.
@@jeffjo8732 I agree but I personally don't accelerate hard enough for it to make it want to try to fool me. I'm not a 0-60 guy. It does get great mpg just the same!
I would like a video describing in detail how to drive a 2023-24 CRV Hybrid to get maximum longevity in the clutches. I recall from my manual clutch car days it took careful driving to get the extra 30000+ out of a clutch. This is very imp. since the cost of replacing a the transmission clutch on a Honda I would expect would be several thousand since it would mean opening the whole transmission.
Very surprised the US market never got the Hybrid Fit. I've had my 2013 Fit hybrid for a couple of months now and runs like a dream. Think that engine you just described is what my car has.
The 2013 Fit hybrid used a different system, called i-DCD. It uses a dual-clutch automatic transmission that not only changes gears for the gas (petrol) engine, but also can shift an electric motor into the drive train in what is called a parallel hybrid system. That means the engine and the motor drive the wheels at the same time. The iMMD system Alex describes was introduced in the 2014 Accord. It is usually a serial hybrid (engine drives generator, and motor drives wheels alone), but switches to a parallel system when the clutch is engaged.
This shocks me that they mechanically connect the rear of the CRV vs. just adding a 3rd electric motor for the rear, or even 2 electric motors for the rear to torque vector.
I definitely appreciate the performance you get with Honda's hybrid system, and I love that it's so easily transferrable to all-electric cars. However, I drive most of my miles at 75-80 MPH, so the lackluster high-speed efficiency just doesn't cut it for me. Still, I bet this system will be extremely robust and reliable in the long-term.
Pikminiman The alleged poor efficiency at high highway speeds is theoretically true, but I’m not sure it’s true in the real world. No cars in this segment have 10 speed transmissions with super high drive ratios. In fact, cars like Prius and RAV4 hybrid are generally more efficient in stop and go and less efficient at high speed. I think Honda made a clever decision in this design. It’s a true EV at low speed but it uses the petrol motor to efficiently cruise at higher speed.
@@alliejr : I get what you're saying, and I agree Honda's system is a clever design, but I've read quite a few anecdotes about people in my situation (they drive a lot at 75+ MPH) who have test driven the current Honda Insight and the current Toyota Corolla Hybrid. They generally seem to report high-speed efficiency of ~42 MPG on the Insight and ~54 on the Corolla Hybrid while driving the same path. Of course, anecdotal evidence is not conclusive, but a 29% difference in efficiency is enormous.
alliejr just to correct...add $400 over accord hybrid you’ll get accord 2.0T which does have 10AT. Probably we can expect 2.0T+10AT to get higher mpg at over 90mph vs hybrid lol
Pikminiman All fair. I would counter that if you’re goal is maximum efficiency, >75mph driving is not the way to go. Above about 65mph, every car begins to suffer huge aerodynamic losses. Further, there is a HUGE chasm between the driving dynamics of a Corolla and a Civic/Insight. But you’ve made completely fair points.
@@alliejr : I agree that aerodynamic drag is a big deal at high speed, no matter what vehicle. The best way to optimize efficiency is to simply cruise at 55-60 MPH or so. I do this as often as I can. However, most of my regular trips are 70+ miles, and sometimes I cannot spare the extra minutes to hypermile.
10:40 So if Honda fit a larger battery? if they put the battery completely under the car like the tesla layout and say then use an electric motor for each of the rear wheels, it would be one hell of a quick car?? Would be really good off road to??
yiyer It’s much LESS complex, mechanically. That said, Toyota and Ford planetary systems have shown extremely high reliability. I suspect actual reliability will be more a function of component and build quality rather than design.
No, I wouldn't say that. The planetary systems have one gearset but only some of them usee a clutch like this system does. I would say that in terms of complexity they are similar.
I would say the advantage on the planetary systems is that Toyota has been refining that design since 1997 and they use essentially the same design in all of their hybrids. Although they are not mechanically identical. if you would like to see what the inside of one of them looks like and how they operate I highly recommend taking a look at Weber Automotive on TH-cam. He runs a electric vehicle and hybrid vehicle Automotive college in Ogden Utahand has some absolutely fantastic videos on theory of operation and also many disassembly videos. He's got a very thorough set of videos on the Chevrolet bolt EV also.
@@AAutoBuyersGuide Hello Alex, I have a question. Is the e-cvt transmission used in this 2021 model new 1.5 cc Honda Jazz exactly the same system as the e-cvt used in the 2019 year 1.8 cc Toyota Corolla sedan or is it a different system? The reason why I asked this was they said that the risk of deterioration of the e-cvt system used in Corolla is less than the normal CVT. Do you think we will have problems with the e-cvt gearbox if we buy Jazz?
I usually tell people that driving my 2015 Accord Hybrid Touring, is like driving a Honda Generator or like a locomotive train...where in a train the diesel motors just generate electricity for the electric motors that actually move the train down the tracks. Now about seeing all that power at high speed...I've been there four (4) times. I will admit that on side roads to Nevada's Highway 50 "The Loneliest Road in America" I hit the governor 4 times for extended miles where visibility was impeccable with NO low lying brush to hide any jack rabbits (or anything else) and NO other vehicles coming or following. In fact we were packed with very even weight distribution with the trunk's false floor taken out to accommodate six (6) Costco luggage bags (4 Carry-On Size and 2 Large Checked Size). On one of the four (4) high speed runs, we had the Moon Roof Open and two (2) F-16 Fighter Jets buzzed directly over the top of us (and I mean directly over the top VERY LOW altitude). I remember thinking, "Wow, if they wanted to kill a vehicle on the road...a person would NEVER see it coming" (thankful for our men and women in the service). I actually think they were having fun with us with timing...as they did cross at a slight angle and we were going between 112 & 115 MPH. But anyway at those higher speeds, I honestly could tell NO difference in power. It had no trouble getting up that speed and maintaining it. Plus, I fueled up every day on that trip which involved visiting seven (7) National Parks and we still averaged 44.3 MPG for the entire trip with a family of 4 (and again 6 Costco luggage bags in the false floor that has the shape of a spare tire). I've owned 33 vehicles including two (2) 2004 Prius #9, 2007 Camry Hybrid, and a 2013 Toyota Avalon Hybrid Limited w/Tech Package. My personal experience is that the simplicity of the Honda system shines trough. I like how when you stomp on it, it "feels" like a "delayed Super Charger". Notice I'm being specific to NOT say Turbo Lag which is a different feeling (again I driven tons of vehicles besides my 33 past vehicles). It just feels like a "delayed Super Charger" is my only description...where it has power and then a second or a second and 1/2 later it is has POWER that pushes a person head back. Okay...well, back to my Toyota's...both my Prius both got 44 MPG (no matter what I did, stomp on it, drive them nice). One I had changed tires to Michelin HydroEdges (still NO difference, which was surprising). The Hybrid Camry pretty much got 33-34 or sometimes 38 on the highway (again all vehicles have always been hand calculated at the pump on every tank). The Avalon would always get between 34 to 38 MPG. My Accord I've hit 50.4 MPG (1 Time) ;-) And I get as low as 34-38 in the Winter and 42-44.6 in the Summer (55K+ Miles it has averaged 42.1...lil' less with Michelin Premier A/S tires...but much better grip and stopping than the EnergySavers. I would assume (which we all know what assume can stand for). ;-) So, I am guessing that Honda does not do spare tires for safety (if there was an accident)...where perhaps a spare tire might get shoved up into the battery pack (maybe)? I don't know, but I do know if you take the false floor out...I could put two (2) more bags in the back of my Accord than my 2013 Toyota Avalon Limited (which had horrible interior build quality with TONS of Squeaks and Rattles that drove me NUTS). Actually the only Toyota's I've had (out of 9 Toyota) that have had NO interior integrity problems have been our 1999 4Runner and 2007 Highlander (non-hybrid)...both of which were made in Japan. Where my Accord has been ROCK solid...my wife 2017 Ridgeline and 2015 Civic EX-L have also been ROCK solid with not even the slightest squeak or rattle.
Wow as a huge fan of Honda products for most situations, I wish I knew about this updated hybrid system as a mechanic it just makes sense and should bring reliably up to a new level after a few years of perfecting this type of a System 😎👍.
Well, it needs some clarification. There are many misconceptions, mostly about this hybrid, but also about hybrids in general, that he perpetuates. 1) The basic principle of any hybrid is that it has a three-way transmission system (most people mean just the gearbox when they say "transmission;" I'm referring to everything that transmits power). It can send power to, or from, (1) the engine, (2) the battery, and (3) the wheels. 2) The generator is not there to "charge the battery." Yes, it does that, but only as its secondary purpose. A gas engine is most efficient when it generates (approximately) 20% to 40% of its rated power. But the car needs less than 20% for cruising, and more than 40% for decent acceleration. In a conventional gas car, the engine seldom runs in this efficiency band. By having the battery as a third outlet, the transmission system can keep the engine in the efficiency band most of the time. 3) So, the three red arrows in the diagram at 4:33 should all go through a device Honda calls the "Power Control Unit," or PCU. Most generator power goes directly thru this PCU to the motor; only what is needed to adjust it to power requirements uses the battery. 4) Numbers don't lie, but can be used to tell lies. The power rating of conventional cars is what the engines can produce, not what reaches the wheels. Some power is used for other devices (alternator, pumps, compressors, etc.) and some is lost in the transmission process. While there is no easy way to say how much can reach the wheels, a common estimate is that it is at most 85%. Since the combination of engine and battery can provide more power than the electric motor can use, Honda used this common estimate backwards: the motor can use 181 HP, which is 85% of 212 HP. If you check Alex's tables, every version (and some he didn't list sold around the world) use this estimate. The point is that the Accord Hybrid can, in theory, provide the same power "at the wheels" as a conventional gas car with a 212 HP engine. Alex's conclusions about power are wrong. 5) While I suppose that electrical losses Alex discusses at about 5:25 _could_ _be_ as high as 20%, over most of the operational range it is about 5%. The exceptions are at very low powers, which don't amount to much loss as measured in kWh or mpg, or very high powers, which the driver who uses them doesn't care about. 6) The engine in the Accord has a maximum efficiency of 40.6%. Over the entire range of conditions where Engine Drive(i.e., clutch closed) is used, it is greater than 40.2%. Alex's concern about the single gear ratio is misplaced. These conditions are the same as where a conventional car would use overdrive. The 212 HP situation is when accelerating, so it is in hybrid drive. 7) The motor is not “taken out of the equation” in Engine Drive. It performs the role that the PCU takes in Hybrid Drive, usually charging the battery with excess power.
@@PaulNaylor3 i didnt like that the backseat was small. I also didnt like that the hybrid only kicked in when running at low speeds. I drive mostly on the highway to work. I traded it in for a passport.
Honda 2 Motor Hybrid is the best solution, but using a standard ICE in conjunction with electric motors is at least ineffective! The best design a hybrid electric vehicle will be car with an Rotary Vane Internal Combustion RV8/16 engine. Competitors will not catch up with you, if they will not first. But anything is possible.
DJPelio diesels aren’t popular enough in America to justify it. A European brand like Volkswagen, Peugeot, or Renault may be able to make it viable but petrol electric hybrids are going to remain the most popular
DJPelio diesel has a lot of downsides. It may get better gas mileage but they still pollute more and diesel is more expensive than petrol in most areas. Diesel is really only really shines in big pickup trucks where you’re towing/hauling literally tons of weight. Diesel engines are just more complex and not a good choice for most people
That's a good way to fill up a dpf. A lot of stoping starting and never getting warm is going to create soot that needs to be captured. It can work with a phev but that isn't going to be cheep better off with a bigger battery
Can you comment on the when the brakes start to take over on the Honda Accord hybrid. I notice when I lightly brake the regen is more then when I use the paddles. I am surprised that Honda didn't engineer in more regen that way. Thanks
The amount of regeneration depends only on the rate of slowing, not whether you get it by using the paddles or the brake pedal. If you are going slow to begin with, a light touch on the brake pedal will exceed the effect of the paddles, which are only trying to slow the car like normal engione braking would.
I have a 2020 Corolla Hybrid, it’s rated at 52/53 but real world I get 62-63 in mixed hwy/city driving... if I go 45 or less I can get 65-68 pretty consistently,except in the coldest months when the heater runs the gas engine more and it drops to 58 at its worst. Hwy trips I still see 57-61 mpg at 70-75 average.....
Honda and GM also reportedly expect collaboration to shorten development times of plug-in hybrid powertrains. The Japanese firm expects to gain insight from GM, which it views as more experienced in the field. And GM expects the partnership to give it a competitive advantage over other automakers in the plug-in hybrid segment. It plans to launch its Cadillac CT6 plug-in hybrid luxury sedan before the end of this year, using an adaptation of the 2016 Chevrolet Volt powertrain that is also used without a plug in the 2016 Chevy Malibu Hybrid. www.greencarreports.com/news/1101858_honda-to-cooperate-with-gm-on-plug-in-hybrid-technology
If the 2020 Accord Hybrid does not have a transmission why is there a transmission fluid change in the list of service items also your website is the only place I can find out informatin on the Hybrid engine thanks
The noun "transmission" means the process that transfers power from one place to another. Every car has a transmission *system* that accomplishes this process between the power plant and the wheels. It usually involves at least one gear to change the spin rate of the power plant to that of the wheels. For example, in an electric car like the Tesla, this gear has about a 10:1 ratio. There is also a differential, which allows the two driven wheels to spin at different rates so the car can go through turns. This transmission system requires lubrication and cooling, which uses transmission fluid. All cars use it, even Teslas. But how often it needs changed depends on how it is used. Teslas have a sealed system, where it can't be changed. Whether or not that is a good idea remains to be seen. But in typical American terminology, "Transmission" means the part of this system that mechanically connects the engine to the differential, and *changes* the gear ratios. Neither electric cars, nor the Honda iMMD hybrids, have such a device. But they still require transmission fluid for the parts of the system they do have.
8:30 - the peak HP can be achieved at other speeds too. If the electric motor delivers its maximum HP and the gasoline engine helps a little, peak HP can be achieved as long as the battery has charge.
Peak HP in an iMMD hybrid is unrelated to car speed. The traction motor does not contribute to it, but the specs are related. The 212 HP (Accord; 151 for the Insight) can occur only when the clutch is disengaged, when engine speed and power are unrelated to car speed. So it can be achieved at any (car) speed by the generator at max output and the battery at max output. But it can't be needed until the car gets above about 40 mph. 212 HP is the power available to the Accord for *everything it needs* to do. That includes non-propulsion things like power steering and brakes. What few recognize, and this seems to include Alex, is that this is what the advertised power also means in non-hybrid cars. It is usually estimated that at most 85% of an engine's power is available fro propulsion. And guess what - 85% of the Accord's 212 total horsepower is 181 HP. And 85% of the Insight's 151 total horsepower is 129 HP.
Hi Alex. What is replacing traditional alternator in Honda CRV hybrid and how it works? Does power converter inverter replacing the alternator being charged from smaller electric motor and suppling power to the car and high voltage battery? I just want to understand how it works not having traditional alternator. Thank you
Further to my questions below, For the information of the interested. Now that I have had an Insight for a few months. I have seen the car go at 70 MPH in EV mode, run only by the Electric motor, though not for long. It is not essential that above 45 MPH only the gas-engine will run the car but if the conditions are right, it shifts into EV mode at highway speeds also. In ECO mode the battery is never fully charged it keeps getting charged to maybe 6 bars (6/10) and then discharges to about 2 or 3. in Sport mode, battery is at higher charge state, 8 to 9 bars. the higher the battery is charged, the more it will keep the car in EV mode, even at higher accelerations, lower battery will cause a car to shift to hybrid mode for lower accelerations also. I would love it if the battery was a little bigger and would power the car longer in pure EV mode. Thanks Jeff for your detailed answer.
"It is not essential that above 45 MPH only the gas-engine will run the car..." You are stating this rule backwards. The gas engine will only drive the car above about 45 mph. But the traction motor can, too. As you noticed, the car doesn't even try to use the full range of the battery. It's only there to save excess energy. It's actually a *_good_* thing that it doesn't go far in EV mode. It leaves more room for regen braking charge, and causes less wear on the battery.
Congratulations on a clear, informative, and well presented run down. I don't mean to criticize, but I would prefer metric units, or at least the same units in the sketch; ie don't mix hp with kW.
The power rating of the generator is pretty much irrelevant, since it never powers the wheels. In fact, I've never seen its rating, and Alex's diagram indicates that it is approximate. FWIW, 143 HP is 106.7 kW, so with losses it will never be able to generate more than about 105 kW, and kW is the standard unit for generators.
A different approach is used in the Nissan Kicks - on sale in Japan and Thailand, I don't know where else. Quite simple, IC engine with a generator on it which charges a battery, the battery provides power to an electric motor which in turn drives the wheels. No transmission or mechanical connection between the IC engine and the wheels. True electric system but no range anxiety! Would you care to comment on that?
As an old hot-rodder, I can safely say....it's not about the horse-power, it's about the torque...It's always about the torque...well done Honda, well done.
Absolutely!👍👍👍🦘🦘🦘🦘🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
@@hackney7106 This old debate?
Ignoring the mass of the car and any losses, acceleration (or towing force) is proportional to:
(Engine Torque) * (Total Gear Ratio)
... or equivalently ...
(Engine Power) / (Vehicle Speed)
The only reason you can compare similar vehicles by their torque, is because practical construction means that they will have similar ranges of Total Gear Ratio. The reason Hot Rodders like to compare torque, is not because it is more significant; it actually isn't. It is because you can achieve values that are close to T_MAX over a relatively large range of rpms, whereas P_MAX comes at only one specific rpm value.
Electric Vehicles - and yes, performance-wise these Honda hybrids are electric vehicles driven by the combination of a generator and a battery - are quite different. There is a speed that I'll call V_MAX. At that speed, the car can produce both maximum torque and maximum power. Below it, they can produce maximum torque, but their best power is P_MAX*V/V_MAX. This is why they are so quick off of the line. Above that speed, they can produce maximum power but their best torque is T_MAX*V_MAX/V.
In the Accord and CR-V hybrids, V_MAX is about 37 mph. T_MAX=232 lb-ft and P_MAX=181 HP. In a Tesla Model S, V_MAX is between 43 mph and 49 mph, depending on which version.
Think you have read me wrong?It has always been about the torque.HP is irrelevant.
@@hackney7106 No, you have accepted a very old, and very wrong, myth. There is some basis to it, but mostly due to the characteristics of an internal combustion engine. That is, not to this car.
In this one, 232 lb-ft is all that matters at any speed below 37 mph, and 181 HP (or 212 if you compare it to an ICE) is all that matters at any speed above 37 mph.
But you put it out there about Torque.I was actually agreeing.
Hi Alex...I am a product knowledge instructor for Honda Canada....That was a very good explanation of our system. Thanks for posting! :)
This aligns very well with my experience driving a 2019 Accord Hybrid. Mileage is amazing around 65 mph (53 mpg) then takes a hit around 70 mph (39 mpg). Thanks for the clear explanation!
How about city driving
@@AdnanJeilani-g1n I have a 2020 accord hybrid. In the city, it highly depends on how you drive it. I accelerate gently, and use the paddles for the regenerative braking and get really good mpg when it's not cold. I'm getting 47 mpg mixed driving (60/40 highway/city) the last 2k miles, but it's been about 30 degrees in the morning during this period. I think when the lows are in the 60s, I'll get over 50 mpg average.
@@Apofuexgaming I can see how hypermiling these Accords' can really add to the MPG but man, it would be tough for me to do that all the time. I've known people to get around 38 if they drive it normal. Still, in the big scheme of things cars are so expensive nowadays gas mileage doesn't save us very much money, maybe 500 a year but the car cost tens of thousands of dollars, registration/taxes are in the thousands, insurance is another grand or two.
@@erichaynes7502 38 mpg would require a lead foot and cold weather. My wife doesn't pay attention at all to mpg and gets 40-44 mpg. I know the tourings get worse mpg (I have a base model) When I pay attention, I get into the 50s easily. If you like to drive aggressive, I don't think a hybrid would be your best bet. Last week, one of my best friends was shopping for a new accord, and I suggested he get the 2.0 turbo because he likes to get after it on the road. He ended up buying a 2.0 turbo sport.
I don't care about the money savings a lot. I agree that for now, the savings don't make a ton of difference. I just don't feel the need to be in a hurry on the road, and it's like a game to me to get good mpg. I like using the paddle stoppers to slow down and see what my numbers are. I love the electric feel as well. The difference in price between an lx and the base hybrid will be recouped through gas savings, and the base hybrid has some advantages over the lx (remote start, 60/40 rear split seats)
@@Apofuexgaming Thanks Z, it's good to hear from someone who's driving the hybrid real world. I honestly didn't know that if you drive easy enough you can get 50 MPG and I do like that it has a remote start!
This system is silky smooth in my Accord. You only have to get used to an engine that revs independently of the speed of the car, but it's a very nice system.
Don't straight pipe it
That’s what I’m still getting used to….the engine running independently of what I’m doing. But I think in mine (2021) they try to simulate the engine revving up and down appropriately.
try a deasil train. they work that way too.-I think City buses should but the do not! I am surprised at this in the "enviormnetal" "friendly"" 2020s LOL
@@flynnsarcade.1982 shame on them for that! the engine should not run unless the motor needs it's charge!
@@fucheduck I have a clarity its 4,000lbs, bigger than accord and it gets 45 mpg does 0 to 60 faster than any car I have had. Because you know more than the Honda engineers.
Someone who explains it simply and clearly so that even someone not a mechanic can understand 👍🏼
I don’t know what do you do for a living, but I strongly believe that you should become a professor teaching this kind of things. Clear, concise, complete. No bla blas, just what is necessary. A big thank you! Nick from Greece.
people that have this deeper understanding of their sujbect usually wnat to get paid more for their commitment and teaching dont pay that well.
Honda calling this an eCVT is such is a disservice to the ingenuity that went into this powertrain. This is Honda engineering at its best! Instead, they should be flouting the fact that this system has no real transmission. That would be music to the ears of most buyers who have had to replace a probematic transmission before. Calling it an eCVT is the worst thing they can do.
Exactly! I have no idea why Honda would want to saddle this tech with the CVT moniker, even if they tack "e" to the front of it. People shy away from CVT, this seems far more straightforward and robust.
In engineering papers dating back to 2013 it is called a "electric-coupled CVT." That means that power is transmitted by electrons, not gears, chains, or belts. The ratio of input rpm to output rpm can be calculated, and it does vary continuously, but it is a completely meaningless number. For example, it is not a torque multiplier like it is in a mechanical transmission.
But we don't live in a world of engineers. Honda still needs to put something recognizable on the "transmission type" line of spec sheets. The term "CVT" does explain some observed behavior, and Toyota already established "eCVT" as a transmission type.
But a better name would be "vCVT", for "virtual CVT." That would accurately convey everything that is needed to be conveyed.
My wife just bought a new accord hybrid- It is taking a little getting used to- I found using the paddle shifters for breaking pretty cool. I love the car, it is super quiet.
This is the definitive guide to learning and understanding all three hybrid systems implementation. Thank you for this amazing lesson!
I've gotten 55 mpg consistently driving the Honda Accord Hybrid here in Florida. An amazing car with an amazing engine.
As a Honda tech I have to say that was a very good explanation.
I hope they come out with a hybrid Odyssey.
Hello, my check engine light comes on when I drive through water 💦 on the road and the engine freezing up then spotter, what cause that , it’s 2004 Honda Fit
@@provocativethoughts3819 I'd start with the code and let that lead you.
@@keyboard5494 it's a wet clutch. Something like you'd find in an automatic transmission.
If you matain the fluid it should last the life of the vehicle.
Having that kind of knowledge is a positive thing but explaining it to others in such a simplified way takes it to another level. Finally someone who keeps it simple and yet makes 100% sense. Thanks a lot.
Clear a Professional does not have to love what they do, but in Alex's case he does. It shows in every video. Thanks Alex for making a very complicated hybrid system, into much more understandable data driven solution.
This type of video is new for you but I enjoy it! Please do more!
he's done other explanation videos, he even did one on how SH-awd works
For context, the Honda Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) in the original 3 cylinder Insight coupé hybrid essentially replaced the flywheel with a pancake electric motor generator. That was light and simple, but being bolted to the engine like a flywheel, it could not drive the wheels without the engine rotating. A 2 motor hybrid with a clutch is more complicated but enables the engine to be decoupled from the wheels and stationary while an electric motor drives the wheels. 😎
Well, for better context, what you describe is called a parallel hybrid. It's the the method used by the 54 mpg Hyundai Elantra. They have a motor bolted to the flywheel, but they also add a clutch that allows the motor to drive the wheels alone, and a second motor-generator attached just to the engine to start it (the other purpose of Honda's pancake motor).
But it surprises many people that "motor driving the wheels alone" uses more gas than any other mode. All of the energy in the battery comes from gas, and the extra conversions needed to charge the battery add the most loss.
Here's what Honda realized from that failed experiment: The main benefit of a hybrid is that an ICE might be only 25% to 30% efficient during cruise, but is 40% efficient if it charges the battery during cruise. So it uses 25% more gas to get 50% more output. But to use that, they have to let the battery's charge go up and regularly. Without that clutch, they had to drop down to 30% once the battery was charged. The Civic's serial system lets it vary just about any time.
Finally someone can explain how Honda Hybrid works! Thanks!
I've listened to other videos trying to explain the hybrid systems in my Accord. This is the only one that makes sense of it all and fully explains under which circumstances, what motors are running. I thought that when the gas motor kicked in it was always powering the wheels.
You are the kind of TH-camr we need. Thank you for making videos like this, just what we really need. Just awesome perfect and real information we need for reviews. Lot of respect for your work.
News, no muzak or flashy video garbage, just professional admiration. Huge kudos.
I test drove a CR-V EX Hybrid this past weekend on Long Island. I found the hybrid system to be seamless and inconspicuous for the most part. The engine kicks on automatically and does it's own thing when the battery gauge runs low. The tachometer is replaced with a similar, arcing gauge that records power usage and charging with a marker delimiting the two. The fuel gauge for the engine is to the right. The push button shifter is pretty much easy to use once you get used to it and clears up some space on the console. The EX-L gets a heated steering wheel on the Hybrid, a plus from the previous year when it was only available on the Touring. The ride was more or less very similar to the gas only model, but I didn't push the car too much.
I took it on the highway and it performed nicely, the engine cycling on and off to generate amps for the main motor and the battery. The dealer said that the motor would shift on and off at highway speeds depending on the sped I was going, hills, etc. I found the only way to tell if the motor was running was on a hill when it droned and on the highway, when the gauge showed the power usage farther beyond the demarcation point of charging. The dynamic resistance braking is from paddle shifters like truck Jake Brakes. You toggle more resistance and the car visibly slows down on exit ramps, while the battery fuel gauge visibly gains. Once at a full stop, the system resets to zero the regenerative braking effort automatically. I detected no discernible difference in what was motivating the CR-V at highway speeds versus local speeds.
The air conditioning is electrically run, so when stopped and the engine's off, the AC compressor still provides chilled air from the battery. When the battery is low, the engine kicks on to run the AC system compressor electrically. I am not sure how the heat works, but the dealer said i can remote start the engine on cold mornings to generate heat. He added that in cold weather, when starting off in EV mode, the car will automatically warm up the engine before it is required for electrical generation work.
Downside: Not the car, but the dealer who slapped a $1000 extra charge to the MSRP because of the rarity of the CR-V Hybrid. That prevented me from purchasing the CR-V then and there. The CR-V Hybrid is available across all trims of the the CR-V and in only a AWD format. It adds $1200 to the base price. The dealer adds another grand to the mix to make the car pretty expensive. I can wait. Looking forward Alex to your full test drive and I'd appreciate some commentary on the price gouging happening with Honda dealers in the USA.
Wow! Good review and it sucks the dealer put a premium on it. They will find out soon enough that people are not buying a lot of cars now and that prices WILL come down.
I saw prices at this dealership in Georgia to be MUCH less than msrp.
www.heritageromehonda.com/vehicle-details/new-2020-honda-cr-v-hybrid-ex-l-rome-ga-id-35416937
I have owned a Clarity for about 6 months and could never find a good explanation on their transmission type until now. I was told that it was a direct drive but was confused as to why Honda called it an E-CVT. Thanks for the explanation.
To Honda, "eCVT" means "electrically coupled CVT." As Alex explained, that means that in most situations the engine's contribution to propulsion is not mechanical. It is by generating electricity to power the motor, and the ratios of engine rpms to wheel rpms varies continuously.
Toyota means something different when they say "eCVT." It is "electronically controlled CVT." It's complicated, but they have a three-way transmission connecting the engine and two motor-generators. By controlling the electricity to and from the motor-generators, they vary the same ratio continuously.
@@jeffjo8732 Hello, I have a question. Is the e-cvt transmission used in this new 1.5 cc Honda Jazz exactly the same system as the e-cvt used in the 1.8 cc Toyota Corolla sedan or is it a different system? The reason why I asked this was they said that the risk of deterioration of the e-cvt system used in Corolla is less than the normal CVT. Do you think we will have problems with the e-cvt gearbox if we buy Jazz?
@@attilakhan4606 no atlest at the time of writing all toyota hybrids are power split Planetary gear type
Also the true definition would be gasoline elektrical transmission with a highway gear
Thanks for pointing out what I perceive to be a fundamental weakness of many/most hybrid vehicles, that being their [lack of] performance above 65 - 70 mph. My former 2016 Sonata hybrid was gangbusters up to about 65 mph; delivering 45+ mpg. At about 70 or so, it would still get in the low 40s, but over 70, it lacked any gumption whatsoever and fuel efficiency plummeted to the low 30s. Moreover, the engine was much more vocal, making a less-than-pleasant driving experience.
That totally isn’t why it was designed for city use compared to long distance travel
My Lexus UX 250h has no lack of performance at any speed!
0-60 as more like 7 seconds than the advertised 8.5 seconds.
Even at 70 mph it does 54 MPG.
Now that im looking at a hybrid for my wife and we're buying an accord im reallt glad i watched this video because i do not like buying things without understanding what im getting . This was amazingly informative and im glad you made it simple enough for people unfamiliar with hybrid technology to understand
Thanks for clarifying how my Clarity works, non less it's an amazing car to drive.
@80% what?
It's a compliance car for Honda
I have a 2023 touring Accord. I started driving for Lyft and my Accord gets a LOT of compliments from riders.
Alex, I'd like to know why/how the MDX, NSX, and RLX hybrid systems differ...they're all 6 cylinders, but different bore and stroke and layout, longitudinal vs transverse.
I'm in the UK. I got my CR-V Hybrid mid-2019 after owning a manual Accord. Love it. Very, very smooth power delivery. Instant power when pulling away from the lights. Like my Accord, UK CR-Vs are built in Japan so I don't know if there are differences to CR-Vs built in North America with regards to suspension settings, etc. but mine corners really well for an SUV, very little body roll and good damping over speed bumps, etc. There's a Sport setting if you want more power or an Eco setting if you want fuel economy. I get about 45 miles per Imperial gallon. If I want to blast around the country lanes I borrow my wife's manual Mini Cooper S with the supercharger. But, I'm sold on the CR-V Hybrid.
Historically, US market cars tended to have a softer suspension setup than European ones for more comfort at the expense of cornering but I don't know if that's still true.
I'd like to see more of these "tech explained" videos. Thanks for this one.
Just bought a 22 Accord Hybrid. Thanks for the detailed explanation. The dealership couldn't even give anywhere near what you explained
I hope they make a beefier, plug in SH-AWD version for Acura. A 250hp electric motor in the RDX would be cool
Absolutely! Handling likely to take a hit though with added weight from batteries.
How about adapting this system to a redesigned ILX sized Acura...JMHO
@@James-il3tq Handling already took a hot from the ride height 😁 With the CoG being lowered it might benefit
No. Speed limit is 120 or 130 on 90% of all markets with exception of Germany and some american places.
Every two DL of fuel dispatched on the market will generate more than 10'000 deaths a year.
2024 CRV hybrid owner. Engineering marvel for sure!! Love what Honda has done!!
Mitsubishi perfected this hybrid system long ago so should be reliable. I don't have it but my friend's Mitsubishi outlander PHEV is amazing. Interior feels like 75K car. Mitsubishi/Nissan may not last for long as a company so I did not buy.
Great explanation of all the hybrid systems available. Can't wait on your review of the CRV hybrid.
I'm only subscribing because Alex is rad and deserves it.
Some clarification in the case of the the Clarity PHEV. In normal mode, as long as there is a charge in the battery, the ICE will *never* actually be clutched to the drive wheels and 100% of the propulsive force will _always_ be provided by the electric motor. There is no instance where the car will use the ICE to drive the wheels when the car is operated in normal mode and there is charge in the battery pack.
Now the Clarity has a "Hybrid" mode, but this is not the default mode for the car. It is an option that the driver selects via a push button. When the driver selects this mode, the the car will sometime (light load and steady speeds) lock the the ICE to the axle, but even here, the ICE lacks the torque to drive the car up even a slight hill, and in most cases, the clutch will unlock and the electric motor will propel the car while the ICE re-supplies current to the battery. Even when the Clarity is in Hybrid mode and running at highway speeds, the ICE is not always providing the propulsive force and in my ownership experience, the electric motor is often still providing the propulsive force even when the car is in Hybrid mode, with the ICE simply re-supplying the battery with the current being drawn by the traction motor and the car environmental, entertainment, steering, and other systems. In this mode, the battery charge program will attempt to maintain the battery at whatever state of charge it was at when the car was switched to Hybrid mode. For example, if there were 14 bars showing on the battery state of charge display, the ICE would turn on and off and run switch between ICE and EM propulsion as necessary to keep the 14 bar state of charge.
Also, if the charge were to drop to two bars, the ICE will come on to charge the batteries but once again, the electric motor is still by far and away the primary propulsion source and here, the motor will generally sit at a fast idle and simply keep running as necessary to keep the battery from going completely flat, which can damage the battery.
The power system though is as shown, but the Clarity in normal mode never* turns on the ICE except if the driver presses hard on the accelerator, in which case the ICE comes on, but only to provide additional current to the electric motor. Even under hard acceleration, the ICE does not clutch to the drive and all of the propulsion is done by the electric motor with the ICE simply adding extra current (the battery pack can['t provide enough current for the electric motor to develop full horsepower so the difference comes from the ICE).
* There may be instances where the ICE does turn on in the "background" on the Clarity. This seems to be done as part of a diagnostic routine. Others report it, but I have never experienced it on my Clarity. It appears that the motor comes on, gives a message that it is in calibration mode, and after some period of time turns off, but no one seems to know the exact conditions that trigger this behavior. I have owned my Clarity PHEV for 20 months and have never experienced this conditions myself, but others report it.
The proof of the above is that I can go indefinitely in the Clarity without having to put gas in the tank because in my local driving, I never go more than about 50 miles and I never accelerate so hard as to make the ICE come on to supply extra current to the motor, so the only propulsion I use is the electric motor and this is at all speeds from 0 to 75 MPH (which is as fast as I ever drive the car).
So, while the general flow of power as presented in this video is the same for the Clarity, in normal mode, the ICE never comes on at all unless the driver demands fully horsepower from the electric motor, at which time the ICE comes on and steps up to a very high RPM to drive the generator to provide the additional current needed by the motor (Clarity owners call this the "Angry Bees" mode because of the high noise level associated with the small ICE spinning very fast to provide the additional current).
Excellent and easy to follow explanation. Got my Accord hybrid in Aug/21 and it really like it. First hybrid and I’m really impressed.
Well, as an owner of the Insight I need to tell you about the real world. The Insight crushes the Prius at lower speeds, say 45 and under. It will get 65 mpg easily and consistently depending on the terrain your driving. At higher speeds, 65 to 70 the Prius will beat the Insight. The Insight does not like high speeds at all. The clutch often disengages at highway speeds to generate more power for the electric motor to consume. The engine drones on loudly.
Interesting. My Accord hybrid crushes my wife's Prius above 65 mph but is no better in city driving.
At high speeds clutch frequent disengages are there by i-mmd design, to get extra percent of mpg by pushing engine to optimum rev and torque zone via extra load from generator. Then stoping engine and driving on battery. About every minute cycles. Although makes sense and most likely also can be used in toyota hybrids too, raises question on battery and clutch life expectancy for those extra percents to show in specs. I would prefer it optionally disabled.
@@aka7kak8 Hello, I have a question. Is the e-cvt transmission used in this new 1.5 cc Honda Jazz exactly the same system as the e-cvt used in the 1.8 cc Toyota Corolla sedan or is it a different system? The reason why I asked this was they said that the risk of deterioration of the e-cvt system used in Corolla is less than the normal CVT. Do you think we will have problems with the e-cvt gearbox if we buy Jazz?
@@attilakhan4606 toyotas hybriddrive or honda e-cvt (i-mmd) both are likely to be much more reliable than regular cvt. However honda by design using clutch in 80-120kmh range to periodically connect ICE directly to wheels, thats a every light wear due to matched rotation speeds but still a candidate for mechanical fail in long run. I prefer honda hybrid due to comfort in the city driving, but toyotas hybrid is more efficient
@@aka7kak8 yes but someone says toyota hybrid may have longer life thats why i wonder as both car very expensive in my country i need to choose one which is lower risky about having problem technically
Thank You so much, looking forward to your next video.
I own a 2018 Clarity, and I can say that when the little gear isn't present on screen while on the highway (meaning the engine is producing electricity to then power the motor, not driving the wheels directly), the fuel economy is definitely decreased. The range where the engine can directly power the wheels is from about 45-75mph. That is definitely the sweet spot for best fuel economy.
Also, now knowing the smaller motor generates power from the engine makes sense. When using the car in cold winter without a battery charge, the engine has to warm up to temperature before being used to drive the car in any manner (parallel or serial hybrid). But once the engine gets to temperature it ROARS SO LOUD for about 30 seconds no matter the speed you're driving in order to recharge the battery back to ~10% (using the heat and then driving for about three minutes before the engine gets up to temperature depletes the hybrid battery WAY below the 10% threshold level I assume. Because it sounds like the Clarity puts the engine at full power to recharge the hybrid battery at all costs to maintain a healthy battery and keep it from reaching too low.). I would say that is the Charity's downfall in my opinion, the loud and harshness of the engine after needing to charge battery or drive vehicle in cold climate after start up. I wish it was like the Volt and could start the engine while pre heating the car with no battery charge so it wouldn't then operate at 6,000 rpm it sounds once it gets to temperature on the road. It is also an inconvenience to not be able to preheat or precool the cabin unless plugged in to a 240v charger or have a battery charge. Don't see why the Clarity can't start engine and use its generated electricity to cycle on and off like normal to then heat/cool the cabin.
My theory is that Honda doesn't allow the Clarity to cut on the gas engine while preconditioning as a safety measure to avoid potential carbon monoxide poisoning if the car is started in a closed garage. I can see people starting preconditioning with 5-10% SOC thinking it's safe to do so in an enclosed garage, and the Clarity switching to the gas engine a few minutes in and someone who doesn't expect that to happen getting a very unhealthy dose of CO before the 30-minute climate cutoff kicks in.
So I have a 2014 Honda Accord plug in hybrid (rare version). I think if I’m not mistaken, that it achieves peak horsepower when accelerating from a stop, but only after the VTEC jumps in. Here’s how I feel it when accelerating via on-ramps:
1)immediately feel power from battery pack
2)engine spools up and feel some more power from it
3)engine hits VTEC and runs all the way to redline, when it hits peak you definitely feel it.
You still have that car? Was it a jap import?
Here's the corrected math Alex asked for at about 8:00. I'm including lots of details you can skip if you want to.
The outer diameter of a tire on my Accord Hybrid is about 25 inches. This means it takes (5280*12)/(25*pi)=807 tire revolutions to go one mile. On my 2017 CR-V, it is 28.5 inches. I don't know what the hybrid CR-V has.
The O.D. gear ratio is 0.805; the final drive ratio is 3.421. In Engine Drive, my Accord takes 0.805*3.421*807=2222 engine revolutions per mile.
For every 1000 rpms, the car will be going (1000*60)/2222=27 mph. (On larger CR-V tires, this could go up to 30 mph).
Check: According to Honda, the ICE is most efficient at 2000 rpms and about 75% throttle, which is 33.7 horsepower. This is 54 mph on my hybrid Accord, which is what Alex would call a gentle highway speed. (It has a BSFC of 208.1 g/kWh, which Honda says is 40.8% efficient.)
The peak 143 horsepower is reached at 6200 rpm, which is 167 mph (or more with larger tires). The car will never go that fast. So what Alex describes as the the conditions needed for 212 HP *can* *never* *happen*. Not even close. I'm not saying that this isn't the way Honda arrived at 212 horsepower, I'm saying it is a useless number if it was. And I hope the method is different. I'm also not suggesting that the power it does have is insufficient; my Accord reaches 60 mph about a half second sooner than a hybrid Camry with 208 horsepower combined.
At 3000 rpm (81 to 90 mph), Honda's data says the BSFC goes down to about 212 g/kWh at about 55 horsepower. This is still above 40% efficient, so this doesn't explain lost mpg at such speeds.
But Alex is wrong about one thing: the battery is still used to gain efficiency on the highway, even at speeds above "gentle". I'm not sure why Honda has stopped including this in marketing releases, but it is described in older ones like global.honda/innovation/technology/automobile/hybrid/i-MMD-picturebook.html (watch the video at about 20 seconds in). That 33.7 horsepower is more than my Accord needs to cruise at 54 mph. So the car alternates between splitting the 33.7 HP between propulsion and charging, and running in EV mode. This gains maybe 10 mpg.
+++++
Reference: Honda Technical Paper titled "Development of 2.0 L Engine for New Accord Hybrid," Takeshi Wakamatsu, et. al..
I've seen some reviews that show the Accord being faster than the Camry, but so what, nobody drags a hybrid. I've noticed that the car alternates between ICE and EV even at 70 to 75 mph.
@@benholdaway7570 My point was that it has good power, better that another car which claims 208 HP, no matter how the 212 HP number is calculated.
But "Hybrid" does not mean "underpowered," even if "Prius" does. And there are some you could drag.
My guess is that the maximum combined power is only theoretical. They thought they could sell more if they are closer to Toyota's hybrid numbers. They changed this for the latest models. Fit hybrid maximum combined is the same as its traction motor hp.
@@philipmanolas2270 Before the 2020 model year, the Fit hybrid used a DCT transmission, not the iMMD system Alex describes here. I don't know its specs. In 2021, they renamed the hybrid version the Jazz, and put the e:HEV badge on it. The engine has 71 kW of power, and the combined total is 90 kW.
@@jeffjo8732 Honda did what i am describing with other models that used the immd transmission, stating a theoretical maximum hp when the system is powered only from the traction motor when you go full throttle.
Thank you for doing such detailed videos since you're one of the reasons I felt so confident and knowledgeable buying my 2018 accord hybrid.
Awesome explanation on Honda's 2 Motor Hybrid System. Thanks for sharing!
Absolutely brilliant video! Looking forward to take delivery of my HONDA HR-V hybrid in Germany in October.
So, it's an EV car with an on-board ICE generator, that turns hybrid highway speeds. interesting
Just like a trains locomotive. Traditionally this system called diesel-electric motive system.
Just like a Chevy Volt ;P The idea is golden, it's a pity it doesn't sell better
@@KarrasBastomi Locomotives have direct Diesel drive?
@@williamwheaton8117 The idea is actually pretty poor. A Diesel, running at low RPMs would make a far more efficient source of generator fuel, and the low final gear reduction ratio makes the engine rev far too high at highway speeds, making it loud and less efficient, while putting extra strain on the engine parts. What it needs is a Diesel power plant (NA) and a tiny CVT for final gear ratios… say two of them, one for 40-60mph and one even lower, for above 60mph speeds.
@@afcgeo882 no. Most diesel locomotive are diesel-Electric type
Awesome video Alex! Just to add a few notes after owning and driving a 2015 Hybrid Touring for 160k. Befor that thou I want to say this powertrain is the most robust and full proof I've ever seen or drove. While Alex said something about EV being limited to around 45 mph, I can confirm that the Electric systems will run up to 80mph without cranking over the engine, depending on load. The hybrid system uses an advanced load algorithm to optimize power to the ground and efficiency at any speed. I've also experienced what feels like 200+ hp at very low speeds, but only when the battery pack is completely full and you go full send on the gas. Out of curiosity, I will by dyno testing my hybrid to see what kind of numbers, load ranges, and mph the vehicle can do. Cant wait for the next gen of this powerplant!
A couple of terms need to be clarified, and one added, before I can reply to this. If only to remove some ambiguity:
1. *EV Drive* : running on the electric motors and battery power.
2. *Hybrid* *Drive* : running on the electric motors and battery+generator power.
3. *Motor* *Drive* : either EV or Hybrid Drive.
4. *Engine* *Drive* : running on ICE power (adjusted to best efficiency by motor+battery)
5. *EV* *mode* : telling the computer to prefer EV Drive by pressing thr EV button. (You didn't use it, but it confuses people sometimes.)
What Alex said, was that Motor Drive is used _exclusively_ below about 40-45 mph, and that Engine Drive _can_ be used above 40-45 mph. You are right that Motor Drive can also be used above those speeds; and in fact it quite often is used. Hybrid Drive is used when passing, and EV Drive is used when there is plenty of charge in the battery.
But you haven't experienced 200+ HP at low speeds - you have experienced 200+ lb-ft of torque. And that much torque doesn't need the battery below about 30 mph. This is because the motor is torque limited below about 37 mph. The maximum power of the motor is the smaller of (181, MPH/5). But 30 HP gives you as much acceleration at 10 mph, as 180 HP does at 60 mph.
What is the total horsepower maximum ?
Is it in hybrid mode or in electric mode?
No thunbs down yet... Trolls must be sleeping... Always great videos/reviews, Alex!
Apparently, Alex can make even trolls behave.... With insightful posts...
The trolls should have no reason to down vote a video explaining how Honda's IMA works and compares to other hybrids.
@@thejake8099 we like that Honda invests in GM for their future.
Honda and GM also reportedly expect collaboration to shorten development times of plug-in hybrid powertrains.
The Japanese firm expects to gain insight from GM, which it views as more experienced in the field. And GM expects the partnership to give it a competitive advantage over other automakers in the plug-in hybrid segment.
It plans to launch its Cadillac CT6 plug-in hybrid luxury sedan before the end of this year, using an adaptation of the 2016 Chevrolet Volt powertrain that is also used without a plug in the 2016 Chevy Malibu Hybrid.
www.greencarreports.com/news/1101858_honda-to-cooperate-with-gm-on-plug-in-hybrid-technology
nice video, good job explaining everything. i test drove a crv hybrid & liked it quite a bit. but i bought a hybrid rav4 bcuz i felt it’s hybrid system operated a hair smoother. it is awsum in the snow, and i average 42mpg combined in summer (44 in city only), and about 35 combined in winter. it’s awsum, and i’m sure either car is a winning choice. i don’t think i will ever drive a non hybrid again… ever
I was looking for RAV4 hybrid but they were not available. The 2024 Honda CRV’s were finally coming onto the lots which were +$2K over MSRP Sept-Nov 2024, but mid Dec 2024 I landed a Sport Touring for -$650 under MSRP end of Q and end of year. LOVE IT! MPG is getting better with warmer weather and no remote start needed. Mega Dittos will never buy a NON Hybrid again! Thanks bro.
It actually is pretty easy to make a block diagram of the system, although it does miss one physical aspect of the layout. That may be why Alex says it is difficult to diagram. It emphasizes a point I think Alex is leaving out; the one that Ben Holdaway hinted at, but didn't explain in depth.
While showing his diagram at 5:10, Alex says that enabling the clutch allows the engine to drive the wheels "without involving either electric motor." This is effectively true (but literally false) for the smaller one he called the generator. The generator is still connected to the engine, and spins with it. But it is disconnected electrically, so it spins freely and has no affect on the drivetrain.
Not only is it false for the drive motor, it is impossible. The moving part of that motor, called the rotor, is actually one of the gears that transfers mechanical power to the wheels. (The 0.805 gear ratio Alex mentions is between the gear that drives the rotor, and the countershaft.) "Parallel hybrid mode" is accomplished by applying electromagnetic force to that rotor. By reversing that effect, the motor turns into a generator and is used to charge the battery in parallel mode. When cruising at "gentle speeds," the engine runs at a higher level of power than is needed to maintain speed, but that is more efficient. So the motor will pull the excess power off of the drivetrain to charge the battery.
Two simple corrections will make Alex's diagram more accurate: mechanical power is sent from the clutch to the motor, not directly to the wheels. And electrical power can flow in either direction between the motor and the battery. Two other minor corrections are possible, to represent other modes of operation. Regenerative braking is done by the motor, so power can flow from the wheels to it. And the generator acts as the starter motor, powered by the battery.
Spot on comments. Alex has read about the system but seems to me he has not totally comprehend it.
@@philipmanolas2270 I think he comprehends it well enough, but suffers from one of my pet peeves (that I'm trying to help him to see). HEV operation is too often explained in terms of the results, instead of the design goals. For example, "HEVs charge their batteries with regenerative braking" is a result, and quite true. But it is not the only way, nor the most important design goal. The myth that HEVs don't gain efficiency when cruising on the highway, which Alex perpetuates here, is based on thinking it is the most important way. It's just harder to explain that the main goal is to run the engine at a higher efficiency.
The Accord/CR-V accomplishes this by running its engine as close to 2000 rpm and 35 HP as it can, where it is over 40% efficient. When this engine speed and power does not correspond to car speed and drag in parallel mode, the car changes to serial mode to stay near 40% efficiency. It could drop below 30% if it stayed in parallel mode. That's why the 80% electrical efficiency figure Alex cites isn't as important as he claims; 40%*80% is still greater than 30%.
For comparison, the Camry/RAV4 has a larger engine that gets 40% thermal efficiency near about 2700 rpm and 65 HP. I can't claim to know how well it stays near this 40%, but it has to be harder since it would have to charge the battery at 2 to 3 times the rate the Accord/CR-V does on the highway. So I believe the 80% electrical efficiency Alex mentions has a similar drop in engine thermal efficiency for those Toyotas. But I don't claim to know for certain, only that they get similar mileage so it seems reasonable.
Can't believe how complex Hybrid technology is. And I can't believe how competent you are on this, making this a must watch if I'm buying a HV.
This is mechanically much simpler than a conventional transmission.
Awesome channel. I didn't know about some of the other technologies you mentioned - but now I'm even more glad I bought the Honda Clarity Plugin-Hybrid EV. Like you said, the big EV motor provides the torque needed for everyday driving (and then some). And as you note, the regen-braking is flawless. Literally I cannot tell when the difference between it and friction brakes, except for the nice regen gauge that tells me I'm putting power back into the battery. Now if only someone could get the word "hybrid" out of the consumer lexicon and emphasize the "EV" instead, these cars might sell even better :-)
This video clearly explains the Honda Hybrid system. Much appreciated!
Thank you for this very enlightening and informative video. I am about to take the leap from traditional diesel-engined cars to possibly a hybrid-engined car (the new Honda Jazz/Fit Hybrid) in the challenging Finnish climate. Your very professional video helped me figure out many details about the new Honda technology. Thanks again, best regards!
I would be worried about the electric battery energy retention in the winter. It just isn’t that good. Also, if the car uses engine antifreeze to heat the interior, then it will run the engine most if the time just to keep up the operating temperature (in the cold times), which kills fuel efficiency. I would not rush into a hybrid unless it had an electric heat pump and a NiH battery.
One thing that seems to confuse a lot of people about hybrids is the fact that the output of the electric motor is limited not only by the motor itself but also by how much electrical energy can be delivered to it. The battery alone can’t deliver enough to get the full 180 hp out of the traction motor; it’s augmented by power from the generator unit too. So if the engine is mechanically coupled to the output and 100% of its torque is used as tractive effort, the traction motor can only output a fraction of its rated 180 hp because it’s limited by what the battery can discharge.
Yep, exactly.
But the engine cannot ever be "mechanically coupled to the output" at the 6200 rpms where the claimed 212 HP occurs. It corresponds to a car speed of over 165 mph.
In short, if the engine is running at 6200 rpm, the clutch must be disengaged. So if the hybrid system produces 212 HP to the wheels when the engine is running at 6200 rpm, it is coming from the traction motor only. That's why the combination I suggested before could make sense.
As I said before, I don't understand where the 212 HP number comes from, but I do know what it can't be. It isn't the sum of the motor power and the engine power at 6200 rpm, because they can't be added at that speed. Another thought I've had is that it is the sum of the traction motor HP rating and the (unpublished) generator HP rating. That would account for it being the same in the Clarity. But it is meaningless.
Jeff Jo is it possible that the 212 hp is achieved at less than maximum engine power? It would require the battery and motor to output more
@@pmo5821 Let's compare what Honda says about two cars that both have the 181 HP, 232 LB-FT traction motors:
Accord Engine: 143 HP at 6200 rpm, 212 HP combined at 6200 rpm.
Clarity Engine: 103 HP at 5500 rpm, 212 HP combined at 5500 rpm.
If the clutch is engaged, the Accord is doing 167 mph at 6200 rpm. If the tire size in the Clarity is the same, it is doing 148 mph. If the tires aren't the same, that number is close enough.
The point is that the advertised 212 HP for both is at the engine speed where the maximum engine power is achieved. It is an impossible speed if the clutch is engaged, and more than the stated HP of the electric motor alone if the clutch is not engaged.
@@jeffjo8732 I'm starting to think that the 212 "system HP" might be still be somewhat relevant in that it accelerates similarly to a traditional ICE setup with 212 HP. While the drivetrain loss itself isn't enough to bridge the gap between 212 and 181 HP, a traditional ICE also has to run accessories like the water pump, alternator, power steering, air conditioning, etc. that all consume some small but not insignificant amount of power. It's actually quite common for cars to only put down ~85% of the rated engine HP to the ground during dyno tests - the remaining 15% is absorbed by some combination of drivetrain loss (which should be quite low in modern cars) and accessory drives.
The excess power that's discharged from the generator + battery that can't be put through the 181 HP traction motor would be used to run these accessories (or in the case of the alternator, replace it entirely).
As to why the Accord and Clarity achieve the same 212 "system HP" despite different motor and battery sizes, it may well be that the larger battery is designed to discharge exactly the right amount of power to make up for the smaller ICE.
As always great explanation! Can you please also do a video explaining the Kia/Hyundai hybrid and compare it to the others with pros and cons. The upcoming Hybrid Kia Sorento looks very interesting with a1.6L turbo/hybrid producing around 230hp. Hopefully you can also dive into this setup.
I have rewatched this video so many times. I think it's a good thing because I start to grasp what you re saying more and more each time. The more I think about it, the more impressed I am with how Honda is approaching the hybrid powertrain. By definition, Honda hybirds are "Extended Range Electric Vehicles", but shit, it may as well be, assuming go all-in providing a proper battery and powerful drive motor.
An "Extended Range *_Battery_* Electric Vehicle" waits until the battery's State of Charge drops below some threshold, and then uses an ICE (that is inadequate to drive the car) to re-charge to the battery. It can not propel the car, either mechanically or electrically.
The Honda hybrid powertrain is not a BEV-Rex. It is a "Battery+Generator" EV. The ICE-driven generator (the ICE is small, but not inadequate) is the main source of electrical power for the motor, regardless of SoC. The point is not to charge the battery, it is to let the engine produce power at the most efficient level possible. So it runs at this efficient level, and the battery adjusts the power up or down as needed.
The ICE can also propel the car mechanically when it is more advantageous to do so.
@@jeffjo8732 thanks for the additional info, the clutch system that engages at the 6th gear ratio is definitely solving the problems of CVTs and electric motors at once, both have good low end torque but unable to sustain highway speeds efficiently.
What you stated is the distinction, and thank you for providing that, context in case someone did get confused. I am expecting people to know the subtle differences to enjoy the humor in my comment.
Just theorycrafting here, but it seems an advantage of Honda's IMMD system is that there is some more freedom in the placement of the traction motor.
For instance, a narrower but longer traction motor could be mounted in the central tunnel where the transmission of a longitudinal layout would normally sit, and have it drive either the front, rear, or both axles. This would cut down the width of the "transaxle" portion of the hybrid system, which can still retain a mechanical top gear and clutch pack connected to the front axle. This would make it feasible to package a larger ICE & generator combo if higher performance is desired, and the traction motor would have quite a bit more headroom too to scale up or down. There would probably be space for a 2 or 3-speed gearbox for the traction motor to widen the efficient operating range of the serial hybrid mode, and make the mechanical top gear even taller to improve high-speed cruising. After all, the Lexus multistage hybrid system manages to stuff a 4-speed auto gearbox, 2 motor generators, a planetary gearset, and bellhousing and flywheel all in that space.
My conjecture is that Honda's high-speed efficiency is lowered in part due to the fixed ratio between the large traction motor and the wheels. As rotor RPM nears its upper limit there are significant iron losses in PMAC motors as the permanent magnets spin past the stator teeth.
Or honda can slap a second motor on rear axle and called a day.
It became a tesla with on board generator. LOL.
wonderful explanation of how this system works. 4 years after this video it seems the mpg is not quite on par with rivals but still pretty good compared to the gas only versions.
You can't just compare the mpgs, you need to look at other differences. The Honda hybrid system is more efficient, but they also give you more car which drops them about 2 mpg. And each mpg amounts to maybe $15/year in gas (at 12K miles, $3/gal). So this is really picking nits. But only you can decide if the larger, faster car is worth that to you.
The Accord has 123 ft^3 (106 pass.+17 cargo) interior space to the Camry's to 115 ft^3 (100+15).
The Civic has 114 ft^3 (99+15) to the Corolla's 102 ft^3 (89+13).
The CR-V has 145 ft^3 (106+39) to the RAV4's 137 ft^3 (99+38)
Then there is about 2 more mpg for each inch of wheel diameter
A Camry LE on 16" wheels is rated at 51 (53 city, 50 hwy) mpg. It also has very narrow tires.
A Camry SE on 18" wheels is rated at 47 (48, 47) mpg.
An Accord EX-L on 17" wheels is rated at 48 (51, 44) mpg.
An Accord SPORT on 19" wheels is rated at 44 (46, 41) mpg.
And BTW, it is the fake shifts that kill the Accord's highway ratings. They were put in to appease reviewers who don't understand that it is an Electric Vehicle at heart, so it doesn't care about shifting gears.
The closest direct comparison is the Civic SPORT to the Camry SE. They are almost the same size, and on the same tires. The Civic gets 49 (50, 47) mpg compared to 47 (48, 47) mpg.
Hey Alex, I appreciate you taking the time to explain these things. Details are interesting, and nobody else seems to think they're worth discussing. I would be very interested in the Acura hybrid setup and how that works in the MDX and RLX. Thanks again.
Thanks, man!! I've been trying to understand the two-motor system and this is a perfect explanation.
New CRV without the turbo and CVT should make for a better CUV. Oil dilution problems from the turbo and peculiar CVT feel could make the product woes of the current CRV a thing of the past.
Thank you for the video.
I just purchased a 2022 Honda Insight on May 30th. It's now my understanding that production of the Insight ends in June.
The 3rd generation Insight is really a Civic with a slightly different look. All they are doing when they redesign the Civic, is making the similarity official by dropping the Insight and replacing it with a Civic Hybrid. I'm guessing this was part of the original plan, to put a clear separation between the (old) IMA hybrid system, which wasn't very successful, and the (new) iMMD hybrid system.
@@jeffjo8732: I watched Professor Kelly's video on the system. He was quite impressed with it.
th-cam.com/video/QLUIExAnNcE/w-d-xo.html
Great explanation on systems. I'm thinking the Honda clarity is still the best plug in hybrid for 2020.
@80% It's basically fully electric with a gas generator for extended range.
No need for torque converter. Direct electric.
FINALLY, a clear explanation! Great video!
110mph.... challenge accepted! :-)
You can do 110mph in the Accord Hybrids, but the Clarity PHEV is governed to 101mph.
I own a 2024 Accord Touring Edition hybrid and I love it!
I don't remember if you mentioned it or not but Honda engineers programmed the non-existent transmission to "go through the gears"! When you accelerate hard it simulates shifting gears. I guess to keep owners happy.
Well by now you know the Honda two motor e-CVT has changed again! ( Gen-3 to Gen-4 ) I think operation is the same but the electric motors are no longer stacked on a common shaft. I understand they mounted the drive motor behind the generator to reduce the width of the unit.
Just wanted to say thanks and I found your video to be very helpful in understanding the Honda system!
It's hard to understand why people associate the temporary loss of power that produces those sounds, with increased power. Those simulated shifts are why the Gen-4 version has slower times, and worse mpgs, despite improved engine and motor.
@@jeffjo8732 I agree but I personally don't accelerate hard enough for it to make it want to try to fool me.
I'm not a 0-60 guy. It does get great mpg just the same!
Can you do a more in depth explanation of Hyundai’s hybrid system in the Ioniq hybrid?
Yes do this!
I would like a video describing in detail how to drive a 2023-24 CRV Hybrid to get maximum longevity in the clutches. I recall from my manual clutch car days it took careful driving to get the extra 30000+ out of a clutch. This is very imp. since the cost of replacing a the transmission clutch on a Honda I would expect would be several thousand since it would mean opening the whole transmission.
What was happening with the “129 lb-ft” on the screen? It’s hurting my eyes
Poop. There was a glitch in the video that didn't get caught by the proofreading team.
Looks like they missed a space on one of the tiles they were switch between to pulse the colors of the power "cables"
Doctor: "Does it hurt when you do that?"
Patient: "Yes."
Doctor: "So don't do that."
ElroyMcDuff don’t do what? Watch the video? Cuz that’s all I was doing
It's breathing, it's alive
Very surprised the US market never got the Hybrid Fit. I've had my 2013 Fit hybrid for a couple of months now and runs like a dream. Think that engine you just described is what my car has.
The 2013 Fit hybrid used a different system, called i-DCD. It uses a dual-clutch automatic transmission that not only changes gears for the gas (petrol) engine, but also can shift an electric motor into the drive train in what is called a parallel hybrid system. That means the engine and the motor drive the wheels at the same time.
The iMMD system Alex describes was introduced in the 2014 Accord. It is usually a serial hybrid (engine drives generator, and motor drives wheels alone), but switches to a parallel system when the clutch is engaged.
This shocks me that they mechanically connect the rear of the CRV vs. just adding a 3rd electric motor for the rear, or even 2 electric motors for the rear to torque vector.
A lot of new parts to design and build. VS, run what you have ( build ).
You nailed Honda 2-motor hybrid systems with CLARITY
I definitely appreciate the performance you get with Honda's hybrid system, and I love that it's so easily transferrable to all-electric cars. However, I drive most of my miles at 75-80 MPH, so the lackluster high-speed efficiency just doesn't cut it for me. Still, I bet this system will be extremely robust and reliable in the long-term.
Pikminiman The alleged poor efficiency at high highway speeds is theoretically true, but I’m not sure it’s true in the real world. No cars in this segment have 10 speed transmissions with super high drive ratios. In fact, cars like Prius and RAV4 hybrid are generally more efficient in stop and go and less efficient at high speed. I think Honda made a clever decision in this design. It’s a true EV at low speed but it uses the petrol motor to efficiently cruise at higher speed.
@@alliejr : I get what you're saying, and I agree Honda's system is a clever design, but I've read quite a few anecdotes about people in my situation (they drive a lot at 75+ MPH) who have test driven the current Honda Insight and the current Toyota Corolla Hybrid. They generally seem to report high-speed efficiency of ~42 MPG on the Insight and ~54 on the Corolla Hybrid while driving the same path. Of course, anecdotal evidence is not conclusive, but a 29% difference in efficiency is enormous.
alliejr just to correct...add $400 over accord hybrid you’ll get accord 2.0T which does have 10AT. Probably we can expect 2.0T+10AT to get higher mpg at over 90mph vs hybrid lol
Pikminiman All fair. I would counter that if you’re goal is maximum efficiency, >75mph driving is not the way to go. Above about 65mph, every car begins to suffer huge aerodynamic losses. Further, there is a HUGE chasm between the driving dynamics of a Corolla and a Civic/Insight. But you’ve made completely fair points.
@@alliejr : I agree that aerodynamic drag is a big deal at high speed, no matter what vehicle. The best way to optimize efficiency is to simply cruise at 55-60 MPH or so. I do this as often as I can. However, most of my regular trips are 70+ miles, and sometimes I cannot spare the extra minutes to hypermile.
10:40 So if Honda fit a larger battery? if they put the battery completely under the car like the tesla layout and say then use an electric motor for each of the rear wheels, it would be one hell of a quick car?? Would be really good off road to??
Is this more complex and potentially less reliable than the planetary systems?
yiyer It’s much LESS complex, mechanically. That said, Toyota and Ford planetary systems have shown extremely high reliability. I suspect actual reliability will be more a function of component and build quality rather than design.
No, I wouldn't say that. The planetary systems have one gearset but only some of them usee a clutch like this system does. I would say that in terms of complexity they are similar.
I would say the advantage on the planetary systems is that Toyota has been refining that design since 1997 and they use essentially the same design in all of their hybrids. Although they are not mechanically identical.
if you would like to see what the inside of one of them looks like and how they operate I highly recommend taking a look at Weber Automotive on TH-cam.
He runs a electric vehicle and hybrid vehicle Automotive college in Ogden Utahand has some absolutely fantastic videos on theory of operation and also many disassembly videos.
He's got a very thorough set of videos on the Chevrolet bolt EV also.
@@AAutoBuyersGuide Hello Alex, I have a question. Is the e-cvt transmission used in this 2021 model new 1.5 cc Honda Jazz exactly the same system as the e-cvt used in the 2019 year 1.8 cc Toyota Corolla sedan or is it a different system? The reason why I asked this was they said that the risk of deterioration of the e-cvt system used in Corolla is less than the normal CVT. Do you think we will have problems with the e-cvt gearbox if we buy Jazz?
I usually tell people that driving my 2015 Accord Hybrid Touring, is like driving a Honda Generator or like a locomotive train...where in a train the diesel motors just generate electricity for the electric motors that actually move the train down the tracks.
Now about seeing all that power at high speed...I've been there four (4) times. I will admit that on side roads to Nevada's Highway 50 "The Loneliest Road in America" I hit the governor 4 times for extended miles where visibility was impeccable with NO low lying brush to hide any jack rabbits (or anything else) and NO other vehicles coming or following. In fact we were packed with very even weight distribution with the trunk's false floor taken out to accommodate six (6) Costco luggage bags (4 Carry-On Size and 2 Large Checked Size). On one of the four (4) high speed runs, we had the Moon Roof Open and two (2) F-16 Fighter Jets buzzed directly over the top of us (and I mean directly over the top VERY LOW altitude). I remember thinking, "Wow, if they wanted to kill a vehicle on the road...a person would NEVER see it coming" (thankful for our men and women in the service). I actually think they were having fun with us with timing...as they did cross at a slight angle and we were going between 112 & 115 MPH.
But anyway at those higher speeds, I honestly could tell NO difference in power. It had no trouble getting up that speed and maintaining it. Plus, I fueled up every day on that trip which involved visiting seven (7) National Parks and we still averaged 44.3 MPG for the entire trip with a family of 4 (and again 6 Costco luggage bags in the false floor that has the shape of a spare tire).
I've owned 33 vehicles including two (2) 2004 Prius #9, 2007 Camry Hybrid, and a 2013 Toyota Avalon Hybrid Limited w/Tech Package. My personal experience is that the simplicity of the Honda system shines trough. I like how when you stomp on it, it "feels" like a "delayed Super Charger". Notice I'm being specific to NOT say Turbo Lag which is a different feeling (again I driven tons of vehicles besides my 33 past vehicles). It just feels like a "delayed Super Charger" is my only description...where it has power and then a second or a second and 1/2 later it is has POWER that pushes a person head back. Okay...well, back to my Toyota's...both my Prius both got 44 MPG (no matter what I did, stomp on it, drive them nice). One I had changed tires to Michelin HydroEdges (still NO difference, which was surprising). The Hybrid Camry pretty much got 33-34 or sometimes 38 on the highway (again all vehicles have always been hand calculated at the pump on every tank). The Avalon would always get between 34 to 38 MPG. My Accord I've hit 50.4 MPG (1 Time) ;-) And I get as low as 34-38 in the Winter and 42-44.6 in the Summer (55K+ Miles it has averaged 42.1...lil' less with Michelin Premier A/S tires...but much better grip and stopping than the EnergySavers.
I would assume (which we all know what assume can stand for). ;-) So, I am guessing that Honda does not do spare tires for safety (if there was an accident)...where perhaps a spare tire might get shoved up into the battery pack (maybe)? I don't know, but I do know if you take the false floor out...I could put two (2) more bags in the back of my Accord than my 2013 Toyota Avalon Limited (which had horrible interior build quality with TONS of Squeaks and Rattles that drove me NUTS). Actually the only Toyota's I've had (out of 9 Toyota) that have had NO interior integrity problems have been our 1999 4Runner and 2007 Highlander (non-hybrid)...both of which were made in Japan. Where my Accord has been ROCK solid...my wife 2017 Ridgeline and 2015 Civic EX-L have also been ROCK solid with not even the slightest squeak or rattle.
i would love to see a review of the acura rlx
Thiago Watanabe Check his channel. Alex has one.
@@alliejr i saw that one (2018), but i was talking about the 2020 or 2021 if possible
@@thiagobolinha9272 Same car. Why bother? No one's buying them anyway.
Wow as a huge fan of Honda products for most situations, I wish I knew about this updated hybrid system as a mechanic it just makes sense and should bring reliably up to a new level after a few years of perfecting this type of a System 😎👍.
Is the US getting the new Fit Hybrid? The internet seems to say “no”.
Also it’s a single motor DCT transmission.
Thank you for sharing all this knowledge. It is my first contact with hybrids and your explanation is perfect!
Well, it needs some clarification. There are many misconceptions, mostly about this hybrid, but also about hybrids in general, that he perpetuates.
1) The basic principle of any hybrid is that it has a three-way transmission system (most people mean just the gearbox when they say "transmission;" I'm referring to everything that transmits power). It can send power to, or from, (1) the engine, (2) the battery, and (3) the wheels.
2) The generator is not there to "charge the battery." Yes, it does that, but only as its secondary purpose. A gas engine is most efficient when it generates (approximately) 20% to 40% of its rated power. But the car needs less than 20% for cruising, and more than 40% for decent acceleration. In a conventional gas car, the engine seldom runs in this efficiency band. By having the battery as a third outlet, the transmission system can keep the engine in the efficiency band most of the time.
3) So, the three red arrows in the diagram at 4:33 should all go through a device Honda calls the "Power Control Unit," or PCU. Most generator power goes directly thru this PCU to the motor; only what is needed to adjust it to power requirements uses the battery.
4) Numbers don't lie, but can be used to tell lies. The power rating of conventional cars is what the engines can produce, not what reaches the wheels. Some power is used for other devices (alternator, pumps, compressors, etc.) and some is lost in the transmission process. While there is no easy way to say how much can reach the wheels, a common estimate is that it is at most 85%. Since the combination of engine and battery can provide more power than the electric motor can use, Honda used this common estimate backwards: the motor can use 181 HP, which is 85% of 212 HP. If you check Alex's tables, every version (and some he didn't list sold around the world) use this estimate. The point is that the Accord Hybrid can, in theory, provide the same power "at the wheels" as a conventional gas car with a 212 HP engine. Alex's conclusions about power are wrong.
5) While I suppose that electrical losses Alex discusses at about 5:25 _could_ _be_ as high as 20%, over most of the operational range it is about 5%. The exceptions are at very low powers, which don't amount to much loss as measured in kWh or mpg, or very high powers, which the driver who uses them doesn't care about.
6) The engine in the Accord has a maximum efficiency of 40.6%. Over the entire range of conditions where Engine Drive(i.e., clutch closed) is used, it is greater than 40.2%. Alex's concern about the single gear ratio is misplaced. These conditions are the same as where a conventional car would use overdrive. The 212 HP situation is when accelerating, so it is in hybrid drive.
7) The motor is not “taken out of the equation” in Engine Drive. It performs the role that the PCU takes in Hybrid Drive, usually charging the battery with excess power.
Im about to buy a Crv hybrid this month yahooo
What do you like and not like about your hybrid?
@@PaulNaylor3 i didnt like that the backseat was small. I also didnt like that the hybrid only kicked in when running at low speeds. I drive mostly on the highway to work. I traded it in for a passport.
Honda 2 Motor Hybrid is the best solution, but using a standard ICE in conjunction with electric motors is at least ineffective!
The best design a hybrid electric vehicle will be car with an Rotary Vane Internal Combustion RV8/16 engine. Competitors will not catch up with you, if they will not first. But anything is possible.
The cheaper version of Koenigsegg Regera drive train 😎
It really makes sense to think of it like that!
The Outlander PHEV is an amazing AWD gas sipper. I got the Honda Clarity and the Outlander and never looked back lol
I wish there was a DIESEL / ELECTRIC hybrid like this.
DJPelio diesels aren’t popular enough in America to justify it. A European brand like Volkswagen, Peugeot, or Renault may be able to make it viable but petrol electric hybrids are going to remain the most popular
Jay Mac I would import it from Europe if I could. It’s insane that people buy gasoline SUV’s here instead of diesel.
DJPelio diesel has a lot of downsides. It may get better gas mileage but they still pollute more and diesel is more expensive than petrol in most areas. Diesel is really only really shines in big pickup trucks where you’re towing/hauling literally tons of weight. Diesel engines are just more complex and not a good choice for most people
That's a good way to fill up a dpf. A lot of stoping starting and never getting warm is going to create soot that needs to be captured. It can work with a phev but that isn't going to be cheep better off with a bigger battery
Conor Nugent it can keep running and charging the battery.
Only just found you and what a very good surprise, superb graphics and enjoyable mechanics, nice. Thank you.
My wife enjoys the wine you have on your shelf.
Can you comment on the when the brakes start to take over on the Honda Accord hybrid. I notice when I lightly brake the regen is more then when I use the paddles. I am surprised that Honda didn't engineer in more regen that way. Thanks
The amount of regeneration depends only on the rate of slowing, not whether you get it by using the paddles or the brake pedal. If you are going slow to begin with, a light touch on the brake pedal will exceed the effect of the paddles, which are only trying to slow the car like normal engione braking would.
New revised intro?
that's what i thought, new intro logo...
Very awesome.
I have a 2020 Corolla Hybrid, it’s rated at 52/53 but real world I get 62-63 in mixed hwy/city driving... if I go 45 or less I can get 65-68 pretty consistently,except in the coldest months when the heater runs the gas engine more and it drops to 58 at its worst. Hwy trips I still see 57-61 mpg at 70-75 average.....
Thats very good number!
If those numbers are true that's simply amazing. For people who drive a lot it's major savings.
Honda and GM also reportedly expect collaboration to shorten development times of plug-in hybrid powertrains.
The Japanese firm expects to gain insight from GM, which it views as more experienced in the field. And GM expects the partnership to give it a competitive advantage over other automakers in the plug-in hybrid segment.
It plans to launch its Cadillac CT6 plug-in hybrid luxury sedan before the end of this year, using an adaptation of the 2016 Chevrolet Volt powertrain that is also used without a plug in the 2016 Chevy Malibu Hybrid.
www.greencarreports.com/news/1101858_honda-to-cooperate-with-gm-on-plug-in-hybrid-technology
Thanks much! The basics were explained very understandable.
Wow, you need to slow down and take a breath!
this presentation is awesome!
If the 2020 Accord Hybrid does not have a transmission why is there a transmission fluid change in the list of service items also your website is the only place I can find out informatin on the Hybrid engine thanks
The noun "transmission" means the process that transfers power from one place to another. Every car has a transmission *system* that accomplishes this process between the power plant and the wheels. It usually involves at least one gear to change the spin rate of the power plant to that of the wheels. For example, in an electric car like the Tesla, this gear has about a 10:1 ratio. There is also a differential, which allows the two driven wheels to spin at different rates so the car can go through turns.
This transmission system requires lubrication and cooling, which uses transmission fluid. All cars use it, even Teslas. But how often it needs changed depends on how it is used. Teslas have a sealed system, where it can't be changed. Whether or not that is a good idea remains to be seen.
But in typical American terminology, "Transmission" means the part of this system that mechanically connects the engine to the differential, and *changes* the gear ratios. Neither electric cars, nor the Honda iMMD hybrids, have such a device. But they still require transmission fluid for the parts of the system they do have.
@@jeffjo8732 Thanks for the explanation
8:30 - the peak HP can be achieved at other speeds too. If the electric motor delivers its maximum HP and the gasoline engine helps a little, peak HP can be achieved as long as the battery has charge.
Peak HP in an iMMD hybrid is unrelated to car speed. The traction motor does not contribute to it, but the specs are related.
The 212 HP (Accord; 151 for the Insight) can occur only when the clutch is disengaged, when engine speed and power are unrelated to car speed. So it can be achieved at any (car) speed by the generator at max output and the battery at max output. But it can't be needed until the car gets above about 40 mph.
212 HP is the power available to the Accord for *everything it needs* to do. That includes non-propulsion things like power steering and brakes. What few recognize, and this seems to include Alex, is that this is what the advertised power also means in non-hybrid cars. It is usually estimated that at most 85% of an engine's power is available fro propulsion. And guess what - 85% of the Accord's 212 total horsepower is 181 HP. And 85% of the Insight's 151 total horsepower is 129 HP.
Excellent explanation as usual!
Hi Alex. What is replacing traditional alternator in Honda CRV hybrid and how it works? Does power converter inverter replacing the alternator being charged from smaller electric motor and suppling power to the car and high voltage battery? I just want to understand how it works not having traditional alternator. Thank you
Further to my questions below, For the information of the interested. Now that I have had an Insight for a few months. I have seen the car go at 70 MPH in EV mode, run only by the Electric motor, though not for long. It is not essential that above 45 MPH only the gas-engine will run the car but if the conditions are right, it shifts into EV mode at highway speeds also.
In ECO mode the battery is never fully charged it keeps getting charged to maybe 6 bars (6/10) and then discharges to about 2 or 3. in Sport mode, battery is at higher charge state, 8 to 9 bars. the higher the battery is charged, the more it will keep the car in EV mode, even at higher accelerations, lower battery will cause a car to shift to hybrid mode for lower accelerations also. I would love it if the battery was a little bigger and would power the car longer in pure EV mode.
Thanks Jeff for your detailed answer.
"It is not essential that above 45 MPH only the gas-engine will run the car..." You are stating this rule backwards. The gas engine will only drive the car above about 45 mph. But the traction motor can, too.
As you noticed, the car doesn't even try to use the full range of the battery. It's only there to save excess energy. It's actually a *_good_* thing that it doesn't go far in EV mode. It leaves more room for regen braking charge, and causes less wear on the battery.
Congratulations on a clear, informative, and well presented run down. I don't mean to criticize, but I would prefer metric units, or at least the same units in the sketch; ie don't mix hp with kW.
The power rating of the generator is pretty much irrelevant, since it never powers the wheels. In fact, I've never seen its rating, and Alex's diagram indicates that it is approximate. FWIW, 143 HP is 106.7 kW, so with losses it will never be able to generate more than about 105 kW, and kW is the standard unit for generators.
Yes I agree Honda’s hybrid system is the most advanced than other manufactures.
A different approach is used in the Nissan Kicks - on sale in Japan and Thailand, I don't know where else. Quite simple, IC engine with a generator on it which charges a battery, the battery provides power to an electric motor which in turn drives the wheels. No transmission or mechanical connection between the IC engine and the wheels. True electric system but no range anxiety! Would you care to comment on that?