The Dilemma of Sonic’s Dual Identity
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 มิ.ย. 2024
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Since Sonic Generations, Classic and Modern Sonic have been split into two separate characters. Is this strategy to make a distinction really the right move? Let's discuss the dilemma of Sonic's dual identity.
---Table of Contents-----
0:00 Intro
3:10 The History of Two Sonics
5:16 The Strengths of Sonic's Dual Identity
7:15 The Weakness of Sonic's Dual Identity
9:40 Conclusion
10:10Outro
10:54 End Screen
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What do you think of Sonic being split into two separate characters? Do you prefer the distinction between Classic or Modern, or prefer them as one?
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I prefer them as one, so there is less confusion.
I think as one just growing up
I honestly prefer modern/adventure but they should have just kept classic sonic as a past sonic not a different dimension
I like both of them also Morrigan dark stalkers
I Think They Should Be The Same
I personally consider Sonic as a character as Sonic. I'd only use the 'Classic' and 'Modern' to explain specific Sonic eras and character writing
Same.
That's me
I'm onboard with that.
i think that’s how it was for a while, until forces came along
@@Joyoboyogomu probably was
We all love Generations, and I do still think it’s one of the best games in the series, but I honestly think the game did more harm than good. Sonic Team took the wrong lesson from it, and instead of learning how to consistently make good games, they thought “Hey… so we heard you like Classic Sonic, Green Hill and Chemical Plant…”
Don't forget they gave Chaos 0 an updated 3D model then just threw him away ASAP. That's the thing with nostalgia bait it's shallow and without substance.
IF you're going to play the nostalgia card at least fully commit to it. Generations had several past zones and multiple classic bosses but updated into HD fidelity while having Sonic 1 as the final reward.
tbf, I think Sega have largely learned their lesson from this. We're mostly noticing "classic Sonic" atm because of Origins and the toyline. With Frontiers and the rumours of a new 2D Modern game it seems like they might be getting back on trick. One can hope.
@@lynxfresh5214 At least the Classic Sonic Improvement Mod actually gave him a surprisingly good boss fight. Those mods don’t fix the game for me (and I actually haven’t touched it since that mod update), but it’s cool to see the fans doing more with it than Sonic Team.
To be honest i dont feel like it's fair to always blame a game just because sonic team is stupid. It was a nice anniversary title, and prob should've been a one time thing
They might be changing course tho with frontiers being set on a whole new island and the rumor 2d game based on advance and rush seens like now they are looking to the 3d era for inspiration
Honestly I don't mind the classic and modern versions of Sonic being separate, for as long as they don't appear at the same time like in Forces. It can appeal to both sides of the community, and it also gives some of the more obscure characters like Mighty and Ray time to shine, without getting in the way of the modern cast
It's not like the "modern" cast have been given much time to shine in the recent core games lol!
@@lynxfresh5214 lol
Getting in the way?
This may seems random here but I got to get this off my chest. When Tails said Classic Sonic is from "Another Dimension", I think he was referring to The Zone Between Zones [The White Void].
hiya twitter moot it's me bea
You know… I wish this never happen, I mean the idea is great but is horrible once you put it in actual action. Maybe SEGA could make separate games for classic and modern and remove the whole crossover.
Edit: I played more of these games and now I realize SEGA did this so that these games could have more money, I mean nostalgia makes a lot of money but I don’t think that you should use nostalgia to make money you can use a new idea to make people happy, sure is risky (just look at Sonic Boom) but if people don’t like it you can use those criticism to make it even better, please share this with SEGA to stop this crossover and focus on new ideas coming from fans
Yea I agree with you
Honestly I think it worked only in generations where it was implied Classic was somehow a younger version of sonic but forces comes along and makes this weird dimensional thing making it so you do have to “choose a side” if you know what I mean
I disagree
@@Jayozranger it's complicated, the way i see is that classic Sonic is the Sonic from the past but after generations a timeline split occurred, that's why tails calls classic Sonic a Sonic from another dimension, but modern Sonic still has the memories of his adventures trough 1-3k. Kinda like how time travel works in dragon ball (if it wasn't referenced enough in Sonic) it creates another timeline but the "original" still exists
Yeah, I’m cool with having two types of Sonic games coming out of the franchise with classic and modern existing in their own games. The problem I have is with classic Sonic getting shoved into every 3D game. It’s extremely unnecessary.
I don’t care about lore, I care about consistently good gameplay. And you can’t have consistently good gameplay in a game if you keep switching between different ply styles like this.
There are no sensible benefits in keeping them separate especially when you consider the Advance trilogy and Heroes proves that the modern designs can work wonderfully in the classic aesthetic. Leaving classic designs as palette swaps can satisfy everyone without contradicting lore and brand consistency.
Yeah them being separate just confuses things
This. It sucks that if the separation keeps going there will probably never be 2D games like the Advance trilogy again since it'd seem blasphemous to use the modern cast in 2D after Generations and Mania which I think compounded the "Sonic hasn't been good since the 90s" argument journalists love to use
Lemme ask you something. How would you feel if they did it the other way around? Ditch the Adventure-era redesigns and go back to classic designs for everything, including 3D games. But you can go ahead and leave the Adventure designs in as palette swaps. That should satisfy everyone, right?
@@spitefulcrow5529 lemme get this out of the way and say that your hypothetical situation fails to take in account why the redesigns have been the mainstay for 20+ years. Reverting design evolution for the sake of a loud minority is completely nonsensical so if they did decide to do that, I would not be happy for reasons beyond preference. However, if a game like Mania comes out and it has that palette swap feature, I would be completely fine👍🏾
Now, the palette swap option I brought up is in response to another one of the reasons why this split is utter garbage. Delegating certain gameplay styles to certain designs is absurd so having palette swaps can satisfy everyone in the sense that they can get their design preference without creating stupid reasons for why things happen.
I want Sonic to become a singular entity again man. You can have classic styled material without indulging on brand consistency and lore.
It really annoys me when people willingly ignore the Advance and Rush games when talking "2D Sonic", just because they have the modern aesthetic. In chaomix's very own best/worst Sonic levels videos, he referred to Advance as a "spinoff" yet counted the two episodes of Sonic 4 as a maingame (even though they're made by the same devs as Advance and Rush; and are far worse games overall to boot).
I don't want to hear it from "Classic" fans that these "don't count". No matter their reasons, they are likely superficial. Even the level design (Advance 1 and Advance 3 were pretty damn close to Genesis tier level design quality). They are a part of Sonic's MAINLINE history, even if they are handheld titles, and calling them spinoffs or "not 2D Sonic" is blinding yourself to the truth. Nobody is arguing that 8-bit Sonic 1 & 2 straightup don't exist, they at worst don't know about them, and the same SHOULD go for the Advance trilogy (and Rush Adventure; Rush is pretty much the only one sometimes made exempt on account of being Blaze's introduction).
There was a time where "Modern" Sonic was in 2D by himself, and it WORKED. It even gave us one of the most popular characters in the series since Shadow, so why treat it with such disrespect
I honestly wish that Sonic just stayed "Modern" with a 2d outing every now and then, like the Sonic Advance series. But I still wish that "Classic" characters like Mighty and Ray appeared, but modernized to fit the designs of the other characters. I love a lot of the Classic and Modern characters, but keeping the universes separate kills the possibilities of fun character dynamics between characters we've never seen interact in the canon. I want to see Mighty interact with Vector, and I want to see Rouge clash with Fang
Choamix looking like modern choamix now
I think them being separate entities, especially within the SAME game, is really messy. I think the alternate dimension thing works the best because if you try to say the classic stuff is from the past then it doesn't work with the age discrepancies and design changes (like Amy and Eggman). I don't know. Clearly we're just supposed to take it at face value and not question it, almost as if this whole thing isn't supposed to have any depth. Yay integrity.
All sonic lore is confusing, that's why they made princess elise.
I just view them as the same character just different iterations
I just can't see them as separate entities because of how previous games treat them as the same character, like Adventure referencing classic games and Generations considering them as younger versions of Sonic and Tails. I mean look at the final scene in Generations, he tells Classic Sonic that his future will be great. Which can still work for story purposes easily but nah lets just make them two different characters and break canon a lot.
i think the best way to explain it is that in sonic generations the classic timeline changed creating an alternate timeline with things happening differently
I haven't seen anybody mention this, but with Tails saying 'Another dimension' I think Sega were being cute and referencing that Classic Sonic is '2D' Literally Sonic from the 2nd dimension. That's the only reason I can think of why they changed it. I'm probably totally wrong but it's as good of an explanation as anything else.
Cool statement, however the true explanation would be that after Sonic Generations a split timeline was formed with two separate dimensions, one where younger Sonic didn’t time travel (Modern) and one where he did (Mania).
Chaomix never misses
yo Sonic Central
Yo, my boi Central is here!
Neither does Sonic Central.
Nope he doesn't 😅
How did you use the sticker ?!
For the characters ages, I think they adopted a “sliding timescale” to prevent the characters from aging rapidly, notice how they never mention specific dates (like Shadow being created 50 years ago not a specific date he was created).
There's something in regards to ages that I never see anyone mention. Amy jumps from being 8 to being 12 inbetween Sonic CD and Sonic Adventure, yet everyone else remains the same age (although I guess Sonic de-aged 1 year lol)
@@DarkkirbyKRPG Damn, I forgot about that! That’s a good point
@@DarkkirbyKRPG Well Sonic de-aging is mostly a Western issue as Jam's Japanese version list Sonic as 15-16.
Tho according to some official art books was classic Amy her self by now aged up to be 12 as well (the wonders of retcons)
@@DarkkirbyKRPG to my knowledge they did get older with sonic being 17 and tails not even being a kid anymore and being is his early teens
It was after adventure where they really stopped aging
Or each game is a self-contained thing, and ages mean nothing... because the stories mean nothing. If everything was *one* series of events, that would be one LONG year in which the world was destroyed multiple times, including a time where Eggman took it over and Sonic was tortured for an additional year that just doesn't count I guess. Happy 30th 15th birthday, Sonic! 😀🎉
I always took that Gens split the timeline in two since Classic Sonic had experienced things that Modern Sonic didn't so he would be going on his own adventures and thus allowing Sega to pull new 2D games without worrying about how it fits between the classics and the Adventure games.
Technically that would mean that Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic wouldn't be able to meet again since their timelines were divided, but Mania introduced the Phantom Ruby which warps reality. By the end of Mania the clash between the Ruby and the Emeralds create a rift in space-time which allows Classic Sonic to both time travel and jump back to the original timeline thud meeting Modern Sonic once again, which is why they probably went with the "dimension" term instead of "past/timeline".
Yes, I understand that dimension and timeline are different terms but sometimes they do get some use as synonyms so at least for me it didn't bother me when Classic wasn't referred as a "past Sonic" in Forces as technically he wasn't a past version of Modern Sonic anymore. At least that's how I see it.
I’ve known this for 5 years, more Sonic Fans need to adopt this theory, although it really is more of a fact then a theory if we think about it.
@@LittleLexi24 I mean if Sega doesn't address this then it is still a theory but imo it makes a lot of sense and doesn't overcomplicate stuff: current Classic Sonic (post-Gens) is from another dimension because he is from another timeline that can no longer interact with Modern Sonic through regular time travel (hence the "other dimension"). If he used the Chaos Emeralds or the Time Stones to time travel he would meet another Modern Sonic and not the one we know, which is why the Phantom Ruby was essential to link both worlds again.
The age stuff shouldn't even be that complicated since stuff like age gets retconned all the time with long-running franchises to fit what's best for the moment.
This is Ian Flynn's (comic writer and now writer for at least Frontiers) take on it, shared on his podcast.
I feel like Sega could’ve kept building on the 2D gameplay if they’d continued the Advance series. Those “modern” sprites were so iconic and it doesn’t create any confusion with the IP being split up into two entities. 2D gameplay doesn’t *need* the classic art style.
The classic callback is nice for a celebration but I think that as a mascot, Sonic should continue to evolve to keep up with the times. Dreamcast era is my personal favorite. But, even if Sonic gets a redesign again tomorrow (much overdue) and I’m not a fan of it, I’d prefer that over sticking to a safe, plain-and-simple 3D design forever. Keep Sonic stylized and on-trend, not safe and marketable like Mario.
I think it’s a bit unfair to portray Mario as bland or safe when the RPGs played with several really creative art styles (chibi pre-rendered, paper craft, and the Mario and Luigi style that I can’t describe but love), everything to do with Yoshi, or games like Mario Strikers that had a really cool rough aesthetic with bold and uneven outlines, along with just having very high quality standard renders for over a decade. Both Mario and Sonic have been in a bit of a slump for a while in over relying on those high quality renders of theirs.
As a longtime old fan from the '90s, there is no "Classic" and "Modern" Sonic to me, just Sonic. "Modern" Sonic is just an older "Classic" Sonic - puberty hit him like a truck during the Adventure games. Also, the Classic and Adventure games have a lot more in common than one might think. The Classic games may have started off lighthearted, but there were still genuine stakes and the adventures themselves got more intense and dangerous with each game. Basically, the devs were trying to one-up themselves with each succeeding title and, as such, the stakes were constantly being ramped up. This was most notable with S3&K, in which Robotnik spends the game actively trying to *kill* Sonic and Tails so they don't interfere with his biggest and latest scheme yet. Then you have the Bad Futures in Sonic CD, and so on and so forth. By the time we got to the Adventure games and onwards, the stakes had risen to the point where they resulted in darker plot points. It's all just a natural consequence of trying to tell an engaging story. The Empire Strikes Back was a much darker movie than A New Hope, and that was due to its greater stakes. Also, the Adventure games tied up plot points that had been dropped as early as Sonic 2 (in the Japanese manuals. The US manuals didn't have the same lore as Japan until SA1).
2D Classic fans "we need Classic Sonic for 2D games! 2D Sonic died when the series went 3D!"
Advance/Rush "am I a joke to you?"
"2D Sonic died when the series went 3D"
I was about to say "ah yes, the floor here is made out of floor", and that would be the case if games like the aforementioned Rush and Advance didn't exist
Here’s my opinion on the matter:
I think classic sonic should stay out of the modern games I think ideally his only modern appearance in the main series should’ve been sonic generations. However at the same time I like the idea that after sonic generations classic sonic‘s timeline split off into its own thing allowing there to be the main modern series but also more classic material separate from the rest of the series. They could still tied in with the main stuff with the phantom ruby disappearing at the end of mania and the ruby appearing in Forces but I think it would’ve been better if classic sonic didn’t come with it.
So in a nutshell do I mind there being two sonics, no. If anything I think it gives the fandom the best of both worlds but I do think these two worlds should be separate.
This is the ideal tbh.
As their own separate selves, i think it works perfectly, well, up until Mania, where the game is actually tied into Sonic Forces, and it's a way for SEGA to shoe-horn in classic sonic just to get the classic sonic fans to buy Sonic Forces. Sonic Generations was an amazing game, no doubt, but it really hurt the Sonic franchise in the later game. Not only aesthetics were beginning to be recycled (like Windy Valley from Lost World although the other level aesthetics are based on Mario and not Sonic), but Classic Sonic was beginning to show up, EVERYWHERE (well aside from Boom). He was in Sonic Dash, Sonic Racing, like all the spin-off mobile games aside from Sonic Boom 2, not to mention Generations kind of became the aesthetic of Sonic marketing and even traces of it can be found now, not to mention the official Sonic social media still using the classic sonic design (although it isn't bad at all since it's the actual 2D one but still) and yet they STILL consider him his separate thing in Forces. Sonic 4 though outright didn't have him and instead had Modern Sonic in walmart versions of classic Sonic levels which is kinda funny tbh. I want to see both being marketed as different Sonics, and they also can't shoe-horn him into the main games, just make his universe seperate from the modern games and don't make a big multiverse sonic crossover thing. It's like if you decided to suddenly include Boom Sonic or Movie Sonic in the games. Luckily, to us, it seems that SEGA's doing just that now. Sonic Frontiers will probably not include him or any other dimension Sonic, and i think that's for the better.
I just realized why Classic Sonic doesn't talk, but Classic Tails and Eggman can. Mike Pullok and whoever was playing Tails at the time didn't seem to have any issue changing their voices to match their younger selves. Imagine Roger trying to pull that off, ESPECIALLY at the time.
I like that they treated the sonic’s as two separate artstyles. Now that they’re separate it seems… wrong. It’s like old and new mario being different.
i think a while ago i saw a theory somewhere that said classic sonic did grow up to be modern sonic, but the events of generations changed the rest of classic sonic's life, and that created 2 separate timelines rather than the new past overwriting the modern.
Exactly right.
I subscribe to the theory that Mania and forces Classic Sonic are the result of the timeline splitting off from Generations, like the multiverse theory for time travel dbz uses
I don't get why you can't just do two different styles of games in one time line. Advance series existed alongside the Adventure series perfectly fine, and Rush alongside the more modern games without huge lore contradictions (minus Blaze the Cat). Just make 2d games like Mania with simple stories that are closer to the classics in gameplay alongside your modern games.
I've always seen the Classic Modern Split in the same way as Dragon Ball's Present Timeline and Future Trunks Timeline. Something happens in the past (Generations) that causes the timeline to change in terms of what happens in the future.
This is definitely what happened, I’ve been saying this for 5 years.
Same that's how i see it as well, and it's not like Sonic doesn't already have dragon ball references (Super Sonic and Silver)
@@LittleLexi24 It's a fan theory, it's not official.
On one hand, branching timelines perfectly explains why Classic/Mania Sonic learns the drop dash and not Modern Sonic. The butterfly effect could also explain why the Mania timeline is so different.
On the other, it does contradict with how Sonic 06's timeline works, with the singular timeline being rewritten when significant events happen (ex. solaris's flames being blown out).
@@temmssmdisnas
Sonic Generations may have created a new dimension instead of a time rewrite because it actually happened in a dimension outside of time (White Space). Sonic 06 having a time rewrite could be due to Solaris being deleted from the past, present, and future, although Crisis City & enemy Silver are in Sonic Generations somehow… Forget Classic Sonic, that’s the thing that makes no sense!
I love your videos so much! You can tell you really care about sonic and it’s endearing to see someone this genuine.
There will always be ONE Sonic in the core games for me and nothing will change that.
I feel what truly ruined this was bringing classic sonic to forces, with mania they could’ve just said it took place after 3&K without making this alternate dimension bs so it would work well in a continuity sense
I think modern and classic should just be an aesthetic difference, with no crossover. Making them separate characters is pointless and makes the cannon harder to understand than it already is.
The way I see it, Classic Sonic from Generations onwards is a version of Sonic from the past who, after the Time Eater disturbs time and space, manages to create a new timeline (or dimension, whatever) that differs from the main timeline (or dimension...). That way, we explain how Classic Sonic is from the past in Generations, but from a different dimension from Mania onwards. He is younger Sonic but because of the time and space disruptions, he is also his own being, since the original Classic Sonic, who is now Modern Sonic, never experienced the events of Generations when he was small and fat. Because we never saw a version of the Time Eater in 1991.
All in all, the whole "different dimension" thing was just an excuse for Mania to even exist, let's be honest. It couldn't fit anywhere in the original timeline properly, and it allows the people who end up working on the Classic Sonic branch of the series to have full liberty on what they want to do, since they would never have to worry about having to somehow fit it all inbetween Sonic 3K and Sonic Adventure. I just think Tails should have said "alternate timeline" instead of dimension but I guess making it a different PLACE rather than a different TIME makes more logical sense and allows it to be different to mainline Sonic's world, since it'd technically be a different universe altogether.
Finally, I’ve been wondering this whole time how no one has realized this, I’ve been saying this for such a long time
That doesn't mesh well with how time travel was done with both CD and with Silver.
As for Mania I highly disagree, as far as the games that we have currently it fits nicely before Pocket Adventure and actually fixes a plot hole regarding Metal Sonic's appearance in Sonic 4. The time gap between Sonic 3&K and Adventure is also quite large as Sonic as the rest of cast need time to grow into their current designs.
@@TheSwordsman100
Metal Sonic was rescued in Sonic the Hedgehog 4, not before.
@@LittleLexi24
I wasn't talking about being rescued. If 4 is to be belived Metal Sonic was trapped on little planet till 4 which is a problem as Metal has multiple other appearances throughout the classic series. Mania not only provides a explanation by getting Metal back on Little Planet, but also provides another explanation of multiple defeated Metal Sonics.
Classic Sonic can work and fit in with continuity well but he HAS to be a younger Sonic and stop appearing outside of time travel plots. Divorcing Sonic from his past to make more 2D titles is not only unnecessary, it opens a huge plot hole just as big as the two worlds one (that SEGA thankfully got rid of and we're back to Earth) and stops us from having modern versions of Mighty, Ray, the Hooligans, etc., thus also limiting story potential. This decision is a utter cancer onto the franchise.
As for the ages, while indeed Sonic's ages don't line up, the interesting thing is following Sonic Adventure if the supporting cast saw a drastic change to their ages it was by four years. For example, Amy went from 8 to 12, while Vector went from 16 to 20. Following that logic Classic Sonic before the modern time skip would be 11.
Personally, I always prefer the one and only Sonic with no needed explanation of the art style change and no need for the classic dimension, even if its fun for the latter to explore what-if scenarios for a reinterpretation.
As after looking at Sonic Forces. Sega's overreliance on Nostalgia Pandering basically killed the timelessness of Sonic's Classic Era. I want to see companies dial back on this practice and steer back to Sonic's Modern Era just to have it all be in balance again.
Because sometimes with to the limit of AAA giving nostalgia to consumers. What happens in the past, should stay in the past.
I believe the line in Forces was simply a misinterpretation.
The original Japanese version doesn't specifically say "Another Dimension", It says "Another World". Which is basically the vague as hell catch-all term for this series for anything from actual Alternate Universes like Blaze's world, to literally just different land masses on the same planet, and yes, alternate timelines, such as Silver's future.
The intention was almost certainly to have the end of Generations cause a timeline split, where Classic Sonic's trajectory shifts towards Mania instead of Adventure after having seen his previous future.
Wouldn't be the first one after the fake torture that never happened and saying that Tails "lost it" when the Japanese script never said that.
This makes me miss handheld consoles like the GBA even more. If you wanted a 2D Sonic game, the Sonic Advance series and even the Sonic Rush series gave that option.
There’s a reason Classic Sonic was changed from past self to alternate dimension. After Sonic Generations a split timeline was formed with two separate dimensions, one where younger Sonic didn’t experience Sonic Generations (Modern) and one where he did (Mania).
That's not official.
@@ChiefMedicPururu
Might as well be unless stated otherwise. It literally perfectly explains how a past self become an alternate self.
As a legendary man once said “Sonic, is Sonic!”
I just wish they kept Classic as an art style personally. They could've still use the Classic look in any way instead of making it a seperate character kinda like in Sonic Pocket Adventure in a way.
Also, there're the Sonic Advance series
(Also don't make a thumbnail like that again)
Ur evolving backwards if Sonic team decided to keep the original Sonic style then the title and franchise would lose taste for sure and the characters would go stale thats why they decided to redesigned Sonic and his Friend to keep the title and franchise not only good taste but also refresh Sonic characters with modern designs all of those is Space rift and sliding Time scale
Space rift cause Sonic original characters like Sonic, tails , Amy , knuckles , Ray , mighty , fang , bean , Bark , metal Sonic and shadow ( before being modern Dreamcast cuz maybe for sure shadow were also haved an original mega Drive design or WE call it classic art style before SA2 Aka Sonic advanture 2 )
Being cloned Space rifted and the clones were sent to another timeline
Without the original Sonic characters noticed they were a sleep
And its explain why classic Sonic Aka Sonic s' now younger clone called classic cuz when the original characters were Space rifted the clones GOT sended away to the same Mobius but in another timeline .
Sliding Timescale means that video games characters aged in certain events but After 1998 1999 2000 -2001 -2002-2003-2004 -2005-2006 they stopped agging and stayed thé same age same happened to Sonic
All of this Sonic dual identity crisis and downfalled reputation made almost some Sonic characters and Sonic tails themselves being separated from their past n' orgins
I thought we were talking about the original japanese lore of Sonic
I feel like the Advance series struck a perfect middle ground between Classic and Modern. Still having that 2D Classic Gameplay with the Modern Cast while having the other story driven games. Don’t get me wrong I don’t mind Classic Sonic and the Classic Games, they just can’t lol Force Classic Sonic into the Modern Games because he’ll stick out like a sore thumb. Generations should have been a one time thing for Classic and Modern to be together.
There's something I've wondered once I dug deeper into this: if "Classic Sonic" was never brought into the fray ever again (Sonic Dash and Runners included), would this distinction brought by Generations be as hurtful as it's being today?
No. And that's why people are upset that they keep bringing it back.
@@Tzarina8472 I know I'm kinda late, but what about if Classic Sonic was kept around only for spinoffs?
sonic is epic
You gotta love how age literally makes no sense in the sonic universe. I mean it would be one thing if the games never brought up time and age then it would just be up to the individual to decide whether they age or not. But then there’s a lot of offhanded references of time passing like the six months in Sonic Forces. The mention the Shadow joined GUN several years before the events of Sonic 06, meaning that there had to be at least 2 to 3 years between the events of shadow the hedgehog and sonic 06. Or as you mentioned Sonic literally having a birthday party. Despite all this it’s insisted that Sonic is still 15/16.
Sega officially acknowledging the two different identities of Sonic is only part of the issue. Its also just the difference in how games are handled. The identity crisis doesn’t stop at classic vs modern, but also with being more serious vs comical or Boost vs Sonic’s various other gameplay styles. People all want something different because Sega has tried so much different stuff. I doubt Sega could ever heal Sonic’s fractured identity.
SEGA has been doing this since day 1. Just look at the Japanese and North American "versions" of the exact same games. All this while they had TWO distinctly different cartoons running at the same time, alongside multiple comics, and spinoff games. Sonic's identity is like custard at this point. But, it's a good marketing strategy. Why be one thing when you can be all the things!? What could possibly go wrong!? 😀
Endless possibilities
9:16 According to some fantranslations, Tails says "Another world", which is indeed where other timelines can be grouped into. And there is a logical timelinesplit because neither of the Sonics could ever experience the each other's position in the time eater-incident. So yeet.
I think they need to iron out the lore. Separate dimensions would work, but time flux definitely confuses everything. If they keep treating classic sonic as from a separate dimension, then things become more straight forward, not actually straight but better comprehended almost like in DC comics.
Actually dimension and timeline can mean the same in certain context.
The way tails says classic in another dimensions can also imply he also from a different timelines branching off the main timeline making 2 universes.
This is similar to the many words interpretation or the butterfly effect multiverse theories.
You are very correct, more Sonic fans need to realise this, because this is exactly what happened after Sonic Generations.
@@LittleLexi24 This is your headcanon, not official.
@@ChiefMedicPururu
Canon: Classic Sonic is from an alternate dimension as of Sonic Mania & Sonic Forces, and is the same Classic Sonic from Sonic Generations who was from the past. Sonic Generations changed the future of Classic Sonic because Modern never met his future self when he was young.
The law of the butterfly effect states that even that slightest change to the past can change the future. In this case Classic Sonic meeting Modern Sonic was a change in the past, and instead of outright replacing Modern Sonic’s life, a branch was formed where Classic Sonic gets a different future.
Exactly like Avengers Endgame where a past event is changed by Loki escaping, creating a branch timeline/dimension were the Loki tv show happens and the character has a different future, Sonic Mania is essentially the Loki tv show in this case where Classic Sonic has adventures different to original Sonic.
At the end of Sonic Mania the Phantom Ruby uses the 7 Chaos Emeralds to make a dimensional portal back the original dimension for Sonic Forces, and once the Ruby is gone Classic Sonic is put back into the Mania Dimension for Sonic Mania Adventures.
I know it’s just a theory or headcanon, but the lore of these games plus the way other media such as Marvel & Dragon ball handle things heavily backs the theory, and nothing really disputes it. (Also remember Sonic is highly influenced by Dragon Ball).
@@LittleLexi24 Well, you are going to be surprised, they seem to have reverted the change.
@@ChiefMedicPururu
Where have they said that
me and some friends actually theorized that the classic and modern worlds were going to have this singularity event that fused the two and gave us this giant world but the way everyone reacted to forces made sega cancel that plan
of course, that might've just be an insane amount of hopium we were on but we thought it was a dope idea
The “alternate dimension” excuse has been retconed back to being a younger Sonic.
I'm one of those people that believe in the theory that Classic Sonic wasn't in Forces, it was Tails doing it all by himself but delirious seeing Classic Sonic to have something/someone to rely on...
I dunno
The reason why they did this and the reason why they made the story of Sonic Generations halfassed is because they needed to do something that is sure to sell because they tried giving Shadow guns, Sonic a human girl to save, turn Sonic into a Werehog,forcing Sonic to battle Majin Buu, and make Sonic battle in the dark ages….WITH A SWORD! They needed something that is sure to sell because doing different things didn’t work.
Thanks again for this amazing video! Always love your content and always keep it up buddy! 😁
Also, I love the tan sonic arms more because sonic with tan arms always brings nostalgic to me! 😁
Sonic was always Sonic, as you said. It's just dumb to make them be a different character, the design is something aesthetic, maybe they could give us an explanation if they want, but it's just the style of each era. Like, Sonic in the Adventure series was slightly different from modern Sonic, he was shorter, had longer quills and even had a little fang in some artworks. Forces Sonic has shorter quills and a lighter blue shade, yet he is still the same character. What i'm trying to say is that changing Sonic's design slightly doesn't mean he is a separate character. I like to think that Sonic got older and started to have his eyes greener, maybe from the use of the emeralds (?)
I think I remember seeing a theory that the classic sonic from forces and generations could have become part of a completely different timeline due to traveling forward and cause it to split. I think it was part of a theory that sonic boom is just an alternate timeline or something? Idk but it sounded interesting to me
This is THE explanation. After Sonic Generations a split timeline was formed with two separate dimensions, one where younger Sonic didn’t time travel (Modern) and one where he did (Mania).
I was thinking after the end of Sonic generations instead of classic Sonic starting over at green hill like as if everything reseted back to Sonic 1 the story continued with Sonic mania while Modern Sonic continued his adventures with Sonic Lost world then forces. From there classic Sonic from maina comes into the Modern timeline again due to the Phantom Ruby but is now classified by Tails as an Alternate Dimension due to the split at the end of generations
Honestly, the only thing to me that'll make the most sense for this discrepancy, is if the split between both Sonics were a result of time travel mishaps during the events of Generations.
Modern Sonic is the exact same Sonic we've all come to know, went through the genesis games, adventure, modern, etc. Basically, the main Sonic we've known.
But this iteration of Classic Sonic, has experienced the same genesis games, but is now experiencing Mania as the result of time and space being tampered with, as the two characters in one place and going through all games had created an alternate timeline where the events of Mania even happens.
Mania, of course, the game Modern Sonic has never ever experienced (since he isn't aware of what this Phantom Ruby even is, despite it coming up in that game).
Meaning: Modern Sonic has experienced every single game we've seen. Classic Sonic has experienced the genesis games, but is now experiencing Mania, due to a divide between realities.
That is honestly, the best way this can really make sense on a lore standpoint in my eyes, despite it being very unexplained in the games itself.
Nice video man, this channel deserves way more subs! i hope you get to 100k soon
I find it a bit funny how divided sonic fans can be while, from at least what I’ve seen, Zelda fans are pretty chill about the multiple characters thing. With sonic there are only 2 while Zelda has at least 2 hero’s in all the different timelines, but normally I don’t see discussions of the different links as arguments.
But the thing is that all the links are different people, some being descendants like tp link and oot link
@@marlo176 Not all of them. Some of those Links had more than one story.
@@ChiefMedicPururu yeah like oot and mm link or lttp and la
Another great video! You do a lot research for these videos, and it shows how of a fan you are! Keep it up Chaomix! Side note: Forces really did mess up a lot of things lore wise, hoping frontiers will get us a good story again!
I just go with since Classic experienced stuff he would've on the future it caused a split in the timeline and instead of classic growing up thr way modern did in the og timeline he's gonna grow up in his own way pretty much like DBZ timeline splits
The thumbnail goes so hard LMAOO
Either it was generations or mania where they became distinctly separate universes (with mania's being due to how Sonic destroys a robot generator in the Stardust Speedway transition cutscene, despite the bad future seen in Generations. Therefore Mania is good future, whilst Forces' dimension is bad future.
I personally like the idea of making classic sonic games existing alongside modern sonic games, but when they canonically say that they are 2 different characters entirely is where i draw the line
It was great in Generations, since it was a time-travel sort of thing, but now I think it’s kind of a terrible choice. It serves to only divide Sonic’s identity rather than building him up as a character.
To me, Classic and Modern have always just been a difference in art style to distinguish gameplay styles and at best, give an idea of what events take place when, the character age thing DOES make it tricky, but like Ian Flynn has somewhat said, if they don't want these timeline headaches, then just dont give them canon specific ages and just give them generic "age ranges", or just give us specific ages for each game entry, granted that defies their effort to make Sonic the "defiant teen", but i feel like you can make Sonic have different ages without compromising his character, cause that's what ultimately matters.
I feel like the initial reason as to why Classic Sonic was/is a thing is just an easy distinction for us as an audience, the general "it being a different art style" kind of reasoning, even if he's technically not younger, it still gives us as the audience a clear idea of "oh, this is back then"
I feel like we're still early enough to fix it and have it not be the confusing lore indications that it has been so far, simply put, I don't want Sonic to go down the Zelda route where we basically have multiple Sonic's and there isn't that much connective tissue between them besides some superficial reasonings.
And I'm pretty sure the reason he got changed to alt dimension is the same reason as to why the current Team Chaotix is not the same team from Knuckles' Chaotix in the eyes of Sega, Sonic Team, and Iizuka. Simply put, because they didn't make the game the version of the character is from, they're suddenly an alternate dimension. It's the same reasoning as to why Sonic Boom ended up the way it did.
At this point, all we can really do is say "screw it" at the end of the day when it comes to the story, which is what everyone already does and why Sonic is still viewed as a laughingstock in the general gaming industry/market. You basically have to say "screw it, I'm making my own headcanon" or "screw it, none of the stories matter". Either way, to me, the separation is only going to hurt the series if we keep it around in the form it exists currently.
Cause that means for people that want to see Modern versions of characters that showed up before Adventure 1, guess what? That's not going to happen because Mighty and Ray are Classic exclusive (because they didnt make a modern playstyle for them before Mania) unless something changes because Sega is flying by the seat of their pants and basically need to be convinced of something happening when you look at how they've been treating the lore and stories across the franchise in recent history.
Like look at CD, when Sonic 4 was being developed and after it came out, the story from Sega was that CD took place after 3&K, but now with Origins, it looks like they might be changing the narrative again to happening before 2. It just goes to show how low story and lore are on the "need to do" list to them.
Granted, it seems like there are efforts to fix this, but I honestly can't say I have any faith because they have yet to give me any reason to trust them in that they know what they're doing.
Like, they promoted Forces as "from the people who brought you Generations and Colors" and that ended up being a flat out lie, NO ONE from either team worked on the version of Forces we ended up with, the best we got was ONE GUY who previously worked on the levels for Lost World, with two new guys under him with no experience working on a Sonic game, that's it. Only those three people made the entire list of levels for Forces.
I like both
I just want the pre-mania classics to be canon, just write up an excuse for knuckles getting tricked twice, delete triple trouble, write up an excuse for the super emeralds not existing, and done.
@Catto You see, they have a thing of shoving their continuity up the wazoo then crapping it out for the fans to have a pile of crap for continuity
@Catto Basically, all issues with classic and modern continuity could be solved with continuity by just making the genesis games, cd, and maybe chaotix fully canon, write an explanation for why Knuckles got tricked twice, (maybe the electrocution made him forget what was happening in the first place, but he still helped sonic) and for why the super emeralds are gone (could write something about them only being accessable every something years and tie that in with the sonic game after frontiers, or frontiers)
Love the Offspring reference! Great song!
Always enjoy your videos
You're awesome 💙
Sonic has a water timeline, so that's why birthdays and passing years don't affect the characters' ages.
I wish they had never made Classic Sonic as part of the lore and that it just stayed as an art style. I don't want to see classic appear in the modern games ever again as a separate Sonic
I guess what they can say is that during generations the timeline split creating two separate dementions
Long story short for those who don't know the difference...
An alternate timeline is the idea of how the history of someone's past could be changed if an action occurred that could drastically change how everything went.
An alternate dimension is the idea of there being another world where someone's past could be different from the world they currently live in.
The difference is an alternate dimension is a world separate from your own with at least some sort of differentiating feature, meanwhile an alternate timeline only happens when someone goes back in time and changes the course of history.
The problem with Sonic is, technically, both of these could have happened. The fact that Sonic CD exists means that there are two timelines; one where Sonic saved Little Planet, and one where Sonic didn't.
Generations canonized that Sonic didn't save Little Planet with Sonic fighting Metal in Stardust Speedway's Bad Future. So not only is there a split timeline, but the bad future split timeline Sonic got transported to the future of Generations and the good future split timeline Sonic got transported to the future of Forces.
The reason I say this is because the 3DS version of Generations takes place in the good future due to a lack of bad future CD stages. Not to mention, Mania had the good future because Sonic defeated Metal in the present Stardust Speedway.
So, as convoluted as it sounds, the Classic Sonic that saved Little Planet and got a good future in the split timeline was sent to an alternate dimension where Sonic not only didn't save Little Planet and got a bad future, but lost to Eggman and infinite, leading to him taking over 99% of the world.
So, they're not technically wrong, but at the same time, this is wrong on so many levels.
Generations is about *eggman undoing Sonic's victories temporarily*.
Keep up the great work and video
Great Vid!
Congratulations to anyone seeing this hope your doing well
It works because classic is sonic from the past but in a new branching timeline.
I genuinely think Classic and Modern should just be Sonic, not separate characters. It should just be a difference in artstyle. Sega needs to understand that Classic Sonic doesn't equal 2D Sonic and Modern Sonic doesn't equal 3D Sonic. I think that making Classic Sonic a cosmetic skin going forward for 2D Sonic would work well. (Many fans are tired of Classic in 3D so they should just hold off on that.) Why treat them as separate characters when they act the same? Also Iizuka confirmed twice that Classic Sonic in Mania and Forces is the same from Generations, so I'm just wondering how that line in Forces even happened. Lore wise they gotta fix the issues cause Sonic Lore shouldn't be THIS confusing.
8:23-8:50
Fairly Oddparents pokes fun at this trope. As contriversal as Timmy's Secret Wish it, it did explain why the characters never age. It turns out it's because Timmy made a secret wish by wishing to Cosmo(The fairy, not the plant) to make everyone stay the same age and have him erase his memory. It's not great by any means, but it is surprising that they actually acknowledge why characters don't age.
I made a theory video years ago and that the events of Sonic Generations created an alternate [Mania] timeline which in Sonic's case is the same as dimension. At least that's what I argued. But like that "Pariah" guy always says "SEGA never explicitly said that so there really is no explanation aside from SEGA is lazy."
I personally would like it if Sonic was just Sonic. Too many variants can spoil the potency of the character.
Ian Flynn recently mentioned that Classic Sonic is just a younger version of Modern Sonic. I chalk it up to a mistranslation or not knowing the difference between dimensional travel and time travel. Also, Ian said that most of the guidebooks and manuals are no longer canon so ages don't exist for the characters anymore. I always imagined Sonic being like 18+ and Tails being 14-16. Sonic being 16 and Tails being 6 never sat right with me.
ian flynn saod the manuals are fine until whatever the current incarnation of the canon controdicts someting
I really think they need to just give them(including the classic versions by way of recounting past events) new canon ages in Frontiers and then never mention it again.
Sonic should be like, 18/19, Amy 17, Tails 15, Knuckles 20, Cream 11 maybe(and accordingly acts a bit older). Blaze 20, Tangle Whisper and the other IDW crew all around the same age as Sonic. Also imply that ages are a little wobbly for Mobians to begin with, they potentially mature a bit faster in some ways but age slower in others.
Blaze is a year younger than Sonic, there’s no way she’d be 20 when he’s only 18.
I have an idea,they should make a sonic game that can be completed with 1 of 2 story's or the mutual 1 or all of them where you can choose to play the whole game as modern sonic,or choose the play the whole story as classic sonic,or make it just like generations where they take turns on different levels
For some reason I thought you were talking about that obscure japenese comic thing where a normal hedgehog can turn into sonic from the totle
When it comes to gameplay, I can see the two styles co-existing similar to 3D and 2D Mario. The 2D games can focus on nostalgia while the 3D games can be more experimental. (Like NSMB and Super Mario Odyssey).
*Personally though, I would like to see a modern style 2D sonic game that incorporates the other characters.
In terms of lore, we just have to assume that all the events of classic sonic took place off screen, I would say the changing point would be that instead of mania, sonic 4 took place instead? But that's just off the cuff without much thought into it
I never had an issue with Sega splitting classic and modern, there's very strong distinctions between them so I don't see what's wrong with different labels. My only issue isn't even inherent with this, I just thought Forces handled it terribly for the reasons you said.
As long as they don't meet again outside of non canon appearances like Sonic Dash, I really don't see what's wrong with the distinction. I hope we continue to get both classic and modern games in the future.
It would have been WAAY more interesting imo if in Generations' story, Sega showed us the Time Eater separating the timelines, showing what was one story being separated into 2 Sonics that will now follow different paths.
It would've cleared up many things and I do believe that keeping them separate is a good idea, then they can have their own games in different styles, but please Sega... No more crossovers between both Sonics, unless... For another celebration like Generations.
The timeline did split after Sonic Generations, but seeing it happen would have been nice.
I like to think there are multiple continuities going on in all timelines and dimensions. (Not going to include non-game timelines)
1. The unified timeline. Most games from Sonic 1 to Sonic Chronicles are all a part of the same timeline.
2. The split timeline. This timeline has Classic and Modern Sonic split between two distinct timelines.
3. The split dimensions timeline. Like the split timeline, but this time with dimensions. Basically means they're a part of the same timeline, just existing in different pocket dimensions; kind of like Blaze's world.
4. Two worlds two dimensions timeline. Earth and Sonic's World are considered different planets.
5. Two worlds two timelines, timeline. Like two world, but instead of them being in different dimensions, they're in different timelines. This explains why Echidna ruins were seen on Earth, while also coming from Sonic's world.
6. Every game is in a different timeline, timeline. For example: If Sonic had the bad ending in Sonic 2, he can't be Super Sonic at the start of 3. This means the start of Sonic 3 is a different timeline.
7. Every game is in a different dimension timeline. Similar to the last one, but all games run concurrently instead.
8. Forever by birthday timeline. Every day is Sonic's birthday.
9. Stuck in a book timeline. Sonic is stuck in the book from Sonic and the Secret Rings.
10. All of my endings timelines. Timelines which cover all non-canon endings from Shadow the Hedgehog.
11. Boom timeline 1. Covers the 3DS Boom games
12. Boom timeline 2. Covers Rise of Lyric.
Ect...
Cool video!
Two sonics,one game “gone wrong”
Speaking of Jet Set Radio, we're getting a revival of that so have Sonic be playable in it would be sweet!
I just thought by now Sonic was a multiverse that seemed like the case with the movies, the comics, boom, classic, modern. I could accept the outcome of it just being that and also keeping the Lore in check respectively.
I clicked on this faster than the speed of sound
thank you chaomix
I like thinking Classic Sonic is a different Sonic, but he's just a branched timeline version. Like personally when Sonic and Knuckles became friends is when he goes down a different path due to Generations.
My own head-canon which would require ignoring certain "lines" in the script of games would be that after Generations there was a timeline split, with time travel working similar to that of Dragon Ball, where in Dragon Ball when Trunks comes back to the past to stop Cell and the Androids, after defeating them it doesn't change his original timeline and then that goes into the events of Dragon Ball Super during the Goku Black arc which as convoluted it is, shares the same concept of time travel. Anyway, after Generations, Mania happens for classic Sonic and Lost World happens for modern Sonic and then they meet again in Forces due to whatever they want the Phantom Ruby to do for plot convenience. So the original timeline is still Sonic 1 to Forces and for the new timeline split it would go Sonic 1, 2, 3 & K + CD (or CD between 1 and 2, debatable, I'm torn myself), Generations, Mania, Forces.
Finally someone who gets this! You won't believe how many members of the fanbase fail to understand the concept of timeline splitting. I knew the series was likely doing that back when Generations came out.
Honestly my biggest problem is we know sega is not gonna do anything with classic sonic after the reaction he got in forces
So splitting them up ultimately is gonna lead to nothing
Classic and modern Sonic are the same characters for me. Just works better if they keep these designs of sonic separated and give them they're own games.
I forgot to comment it on your community post but, I just always liked to think that Classic Sonic in Generations was Sonic's Past, but it changed his timeline in its own way (by that I mean by not affecting Modern Sonic), now making him different.
Meaning that Classic Sonic went through Sonic Mania, while Modern Sonic didn't.
In other words, it's like we have two Sonic from different timelines, but essentially are the same person. It gives an excuse to keep both Sonics around while not being too bothersome, at least to me
Edit: Forgot to mention this as well since last time I thought of it was around 2018, but, well, it would also explain why Robotnik does something different (finding and using the Phantom Ruby) after Generations, instead of doing what Eggman failed to do (There's even a potential mention to that in the white space post-credit scene in Generations)
Sonic has had an identity crisis since the manga. Anyone remember Nicky? Also, claiming that Classic Sonic comes from “another dimension” makes complete sense. “Dimension” in science fiction stories doesn’t have a concrete definition. Perhaps in the Sonic world dimension does just mean alternate timeline. And if you have a problem with Classic being from another timeline, remember that the timeline was split after Generations. Classic went of to be in Mania whereas Modern never had that experience. Time travel just has different rules in this world than what people are used to. And as for Sonic CD, well maybe the time posts and Time Stones just have different properties. Or it’s just a retcon, idk?
For me I always considered sonic generations classic sonic and sonic forces classic sonic as 2 different characters, 1 from the past and one just from a different dimension, and just it goes unexplained in sonic forces cause they didn't think the 5 year olds would question it
Honestly when it came to Generations age retcon aside I was fully on board with Classic Sonic being a younger Sonic. He aged so his fur got a bit darker and his eyes got some color whatever it didn't have to make sense, but with them contradicting themselves a few years later the only two scenarios I can imagine are they really just didn't care enough to be consistent or they realized that by having classic Sonic be from the past they'd be making Bean and Bark, Fang the Sniper, Might and Ray, and anyone else part of the modern Sonic canon so they shit the bed and ruined the timeline even more
Well, Classic sonic's fur was pretty much the same color since Sonic 2.
There wasn't a retcon because Generations Split the Timeline. Sonic's past life started happening differently in a newly created timeline it really isn't that complicated & was an obvious end result of Sonic Generations. I knew that was going to happen before the game even came out more than 10 years ago.
@@WaterKirby1994 The original sonic did experience all of what happened before mania though.
I feel like people keep forgetting that classic sonic in forces is Mania sonic in the fight when he has all the chaos emeralds and teleports somewhere else which is to forces. That’s why his pose at the end of Mania is the same he did in the teaser trailer and why the portal at the end of mania is the one he enters in in forces and why they keep saying dimension in forces but past in generations.
That explains nothing
@@SonicXtreme99akaCreeperMario what are you taking about, either you didn’t read my comment or you didn’t play/finish Mania or both. Just look it up how Mania and Forces connects, it’s canon.
@@breezixmyguy dude I know they connect, but how does that make classic now from another dimension when generations exist?
@@SonicXtreme99akaCreeperMario generations was Sonic from the past but the events of Mania didn’t canonically exist in the timeline but it exists in another dimension, not particularly the past. Now, this doesn’t explain how Sonic and his friends would know that it’s Sonic from another dimension but that’s why.
If the characters are separate, then the classic games are no longer canon with the modern games, thus leaving holes in the lore that can only be filled if they weren’t separate.