Wikipedia 😂 I find myself so often looking up some theory term I’ve come across, rolling my eyes at the usually verbose definition, and asking myself why I continue to consult Wikipedia on anything beyond the basics for quick reference. I appreciate this series! I started studying the Gradus recently (I’ve had Mann’s translation for three years but stopped after third species in two parts when I first got it 😅) and I’m grateful to have your concise distillations and commentaries on melodic fluency as a supplement to the the text. Thank you.
Yes indeed. I’m not sure why my list was so brief. Anyone reading this comment should watch my video How to Compose 4:1 Counterpoint, which covers the same material as this video, but better IMO.
@@JacobGran it’s not your fault, in the book gradus ad parnassum too, they have given only these three possibilities. I was unable to figure out why. And sure, I will go watch that video of yours today. Thanks 😊
In your example of Nota Cambiata, the transition from the first beat (D), to the first beat of the next measure (C), goes from a Perfect Consonance (8) to a Perfect Consonance (8) by direct motion. Is this simply allowed when doing Nota Cambiata? Is this simply allowed on 3rd species counterpoint? Thank you for this amazing videos! :)
Good question. Fux himself uses the Cambiata figure in this way, so I would have to say that it is acceptable. Perfect intervals on consecutive downbeats is less of a problem in third species than in second, because there are more notes that separate the consecutive downbeats. In this case, the final octave on C sounds to my ears to be approached in contrary motion from below by the fifth on beat three and sixth on beat four. Hope this helps.
@@JacobGran thanks for the answer! make sense! I have two more questions about Cambiata: 1- Can you do a Cambiata when writing the counterpoint below? 2- Can you do a Cambiata starting from a an interval that is different to an Octave? All the best!
Great video resource, really helps me get through Gradus and understand it. Quick question: can a cambiata be used going up if you are below the cantus? Thanks!
Hello! Fantastic videos! Thank you for sharing. I have one question: How about neighbor notes? Is it possible or useful to use them in third species? I've seen other teachers who use them even in second species. Would that be other "styles" of counterpoint? Is there any species in strict counterpoint where it is possible or useful to use neighbor notes? Thank you! And congratulations for these wonderful videos.
Great question. I cover this topic in one of my other videos, titled "How to Compose 3:1 Counterpoint." My position is that I would recommend adding another species between second and third (2-and-a-half-th species?) that introduces the neighbor note as a fundamental kind of dissonance on beat two of a triple meter. This series on Species Counterpoint is based only on Fux and Gradus ad Parnassum, so neighbor notes are not covered here.
Great question! The B-flat in m 5 is because he wants to avoid outlining a diminished fifth between the consecutive downbeats of measures 5 and 6, and the later B-flats are likely because he wants to avoid flickering back and forth quickly between B flat and B natural, which would be unnecessarily difficult to sing. In general we should think of Fux’s Dorian mode as basically just melodic minor, with a very flexible ^6.
I guess it didn't occur to me! The double neighbor is an acceptable cadence according to those authors who allow its use at all. The conservatives like Fux and Bellermann, for instance, don't allow neighbor notes in third species, so they wouldn't allow that cadence.
I was also surprised he didn't pay attention to the fact both B natural and B flat where used, it seems like it obvious but isn't there a rule about it? can we just switch when we want?
Thank you, Dr. Gran. These lessons are so helpful - and enjoyable.
Glad you like them!
Wikipedia 😂
I find myself so often looking up some theory term I’ve come across, rolling my eyes at the usually verbose definition, and asking myself why I continue to consult Wikipedia on anything beyond the basics for quick reference.
I appreciate this series! I started studying the Gradus recently (I’ve had Mann’s translation for three years but stopped after third species in two parts when I first got it 😅) and I’m grateful to have your concise distillations and commentaries on melodic fluency as a supplement to the the text. Thank you.
In cadence conventions, can’t we end with intervals 6543 in penultimate measure for lower part counterpoint?
Yes indeed. I’m not sure why my list was so brief.
Anyone reading this comment should watch my video How to Compose 4:1 Counterpoint, which covers the same material as this video, but better IMO.
@@JacobGran it’s not your fault, in the book gradus ad parnassum too, they have given only these three possibilities. I was unable to figure out why.
And sure, I will go watch that video of yours today. Thanks 😊
Is there a direct connection between counterpoint conventions and bebop playing? This 3rd species seems a lot like that.
Hello, I should say thank you for this videos…
I have a question here, why is he using Bb?
To avoid forming hidden tritones with the F, but i dont know why sometimes B natural is allowed and sometimes flattened.
In your example of Nota Cambiata, the transition from the first beat (D), to the first beat of the next measure (C), goes from a Perfect Consonance (8) to a Perfect Consonance (8) by direct motion. Is this simply allowed when doing Nota Cambiata? Is this simply allowed on 3rd species counterpoint?
Thank you for this amazing videos! :)
Good question. Fux himself uses the Cambiata figure in this way, so I would have to say that it is acceptable. Perfect intervals on consecutive downbeats is less of a problem in third species than in second, because there are more notes that separate the consecutive downbeats. In this case, the final octave on C sounds to my ears to be approached in contrary motion from below by the fifth on beat three and sixth on beat four. Hope this helps.
@@JacobGran thanks for the answer! make sense!
I have two more questions about Cambiata:
1- Can you do a Cambiata when writing the counterpoint below?
2- Can you do a Cambiata starting from a an interval that is different to an Octave?
All the best!
Darío Peris Yes and yes.
Great video resource, really helps me get through Gradus and understand it. Quick question: can a cambiata be used going up if you are below the cantus? Thanks!
Yes, those are sometimes called inverted cambiatas. Something like: 8-7-5-6.
Hello!
Fantastic videos! Thank you for sharing.
I have one question: How about neighbor notes? Is it possible or useful to use them in third species?
I've seen other teachers who use them even in second species. Would that be other "styles" of counterpoint?
Is there any species in strict counterpoint where it is possible or useful to use neighbor notes?
Thank you! And congratulations for these wonderful videos.
Great question. I cover this topic in one of my other videos, titled "How to Compose 3:1 Counterpoint." My position is that I would recommend adding another species between second and third (2-and-a-half-th species?) that introduces the neighbor note as a fundamental kind of dissonance on beat two of a triple meter. This series on Species Counterpoint is based only on Fux and Gradus ad Parnassum, so neighbor notes are not covered here.
Is there a reason Fux didn't stay Dorian in his example, specifically in measures 5-8?
Great question! The B-flat in m 5 is because he wants to avoid outlining a diminished fifth between the consecutive downbeats of measures 5 and 6, and the later B-flats are likely because he wants to avoid flickering back and forth quickly between B flat and B natural, which would be unnecessarily difficult to sing. In general we should think of Fux’s Dorian mode as basically just melodic minor, with a very flexible ^6.
@@JacobGran Oh ok that makes perfect sense. Excellent explanation as I've come to expect
@@JacobGran thank you for the answer!! I was surprised you didn't mention this in the video
Why are some notes made flat?
Very well explained. Thank you
Very good!
Thank you very much!
Why didn’t you include the Double Neighbor figure as a conventional cadence?
I guess it didn't occur to me! The double neighbor is an acceptable cadence according to those authors who allow its use at all. The conservatives like Fux and Bellermann, for instance, don't allow neighbor notes in third species, so they wouldn't allow that cadence.
I have seen this video a few times now, but I only just noticed the reference to Wikipedia at 6:36. Ha!
Ok… why the Bb?
I was also surprised he didn't pay attention to the fact both B natural and B flat where used, it seems like it obvious but isn't there a rule about it? can we just switch when we want?
It would be nice if 3:1 was called "perfect third species" and 4:1 "imperfect third species"