Good question. It may have been for harmonic reasons, but in counterpoint exercises most of Fux's explanations are focused on melody. B-flats are used in Dorian very freely, whenever it might improve the melodic line. I think here, Fux uses it because the melody is basically descending on its way to A on the next downbeat, and after that he reverts back to B-natural when the melody ascends, just like is traditionally taught in the melodic minor scale. Unfortunately there are no easy-to-summarize rules about when to use those accidentals in modal species counterpoint (that I know of at least). If you know Jeppesen's book on counterpoint, he has a section in the first part that deals with the difference between the ecclesiastical modes and what he calls the "polyphonic" modes used in these exercises. Maybe I should make a video on that because this question comes up a lot.
Jacob, thank you for making these. I teach freshman level theory that covers species counterpoint and I appreciate seeing your approach to your organization and presentation of this material. 1) it makes me feel good I generally present things very similarly to you and 2) it's good to have a fresh perspective on material that might have gotten a bit stale for me. Now, when you complete the series on imitative counterpoint I'll have homework for myself!
Really nice video and explanations. Sincerely, thank you. One thin bugs me though. In the second measure of the Fux example, the counterpoint line goes below the CF. Is this permitted in species counterpoint? Also, what are your thoughts on crossing voices (voice registers?) from a compositional perspective?
Great question. I understand that allowing voice crossings defeats the purpose of composing a counterpoint "above" or "below" a Cantus firmus, but I do not believe it is a true error of any kind, as long as the voice leading is still correct and melodic independence is maintained. In some situations it is definitely the best solution, and it occurs frequently in real music, therefore I would encourage students to remember that it is an option (if not necessarily the first option).
In fourth species it would need to be a half note even if it is consonant, but in fifth species we can definitely tie to a quarter, and since the note is consonant it can go wherever on beat 2.
Excellent video, Jacob! I was just wondering why are there so many consecutive perfect intervals in the fifth species exemple if they're usually considered bad voice leading... are they allowed in this form of counterpoint?
One thing that I think I'm getting tied up on... and I think I may have answered my own question in writing about it. As an inexperienced hobbyist composer, one could "evolve" a 1st species counterpoint through to 5th species. I presume then, that to further develop it into a proper 2-voice counterpoint-style composition, one could then treat the counterpoint line as a "developed" cantus firmus, and repeat working the semibreve line (that was previously the cantus firmus) through 1st-5th species of counterpoint against what was the counterpoint line?
This is a great question. Analysis and composition are like a two-way street, one breaks down and the other builds up. I would prefer to reframe your thought process in terms of analysis rather than composition. Take some "florid" two-voice compositions, like any of the wonderful Duos by Lassus, and see if you can't analyze them in terms of dissonance treatment. Can we really reduce both voices all the way down to something that looks like a first species exercise? In some measures we'll come close, but the much more important thing is to understand the preparation and resolution of all of the different kinds of dissonance employed. If you become fluent enough in analyzing and interpreting this music, composing it directly with florid melodies should not be too difficult. It is much less mechanical than the other way around, and it is closer to what those composers were actually doing.
Hey there! Thanks for the videos, it is very appreciatable, and the content is of obvious quality. Here's a small question : though many of the rules discussed in the previous videos make sense to me, I'm a little surprised that the dissonances that appear in fourth species have to resolve downwards. It feels very "specific"... Why is that? Thank you for answering if you do, or thanks to anyone else that has an answer to offer! Else, I'll do a little research.
Excellent question. I agree with Felix Salzer that the downward resolution in strict 4th species is mainly a pedagogical rule to make teaching and learning easier. The principal suspension dissonances 4-3 and 7-6 occur very frequently in the style of Palestrina, whom Fux took as a model, but upward resolving suspensions of 7-8 (especially at cadences), 9-10, and 2-3 mainly occur in later instrumental music of the classical composers. In other words, upward resolutions occur in "free" composition rather than "strict."
I love your channel! If I may ask, the main issue that I don't fully grasp is the use of accidentals in the modes, if Dorian has a B natural why often use a B-flat? He used it in the 5th measure and then went back to the B natural..
That is a very large topic! I think a great starting place is this video on "Musica Ficta" by Early Music Sources: th-cam.com/video/6VF6YkCNRyE/w-d-xo.html
This channel is really great. The idea of picking up Fux, Mozart, Haydn, Albrechtberger, Beethoven, Schubert, Tchaikovsky, Sechter lessons and by other (some as student, some as teacher) to showing the counterpoint issues was really good.
Dear Dr. Gran, thanks for this brilliantly logical explanation! Some time ago I wrote a fugue (th-cam.com/video/R-p5Q8I2B50/w-d-xo.html) which I maintain obeys the rules, at least as regards the exposition - but it was hotly contested (bars 2 and 3 of the answer) by a musician friend. I cannot agree - would you (or any of your many followers) be kind enough to let me know which of us is wrong (and why)?
Nice fugue! I wouldn't phrase it as right or wrong, but rather as what style of counterpoint we are attempting. In my opinion, this fugue is well written as an 18th century "stile antico" fugue for organ, but it therefore includes some things that would not have occurred in 15th and 16th c vocal music (which the stile antico of later generations was meant to imitate). I assume the objections to measures 8 and 9 are the dissonance between F and B natural. However, if I remember correctly, there were some 18th c Italian contrapuntists who permitted melodic leaps of a diminished fifth (as occurs in your subject between mm.3-4 and in the CS1 in m.9), even in strict counterpoint, but did not allow the augmented fourth as a melodic interval. But those leaps would not be idiomatic of Palestrina or Lassus. However, what strikes me are the syncopated syncopations in measures 10-11. The suspension dissonance on the weak final beat of m. 10 that resolves on the downbeat of m. 11 would be controversial even in the 18th century, although it offends my eyes more than my ears.
Thank you very much for your detailed reply! Yes, the style is much more in that of, say, Mendelssohn, for example It is definitely not in the species-counterpoint style of Lassus or Palestrina. Your last sentence is what my Italian friend said - "Bella fuga, ma non ubedisce le regole!". Well, if it doesn't offend your ears, but gives them pleasure, I have done my duty as a composer! I have written other contrapuntal stuff, including a triple fugue which I would like to pick your wonderful brains on, but that would be greedy.!@@JacobGran
Thank you. I was having hard time finish reading my music composition book, your video help me grind through all the counterpoint chapters. Some of the info presented in the book was really confusing, your video made the same idea sound so much simple to understand.
I've had to use www.ars-nova.com, openmusictheory.com, and this channel to understand it completely. There's many different details written in each one that can be helpful to know.
This was excellent! Do you have book recommendations that go beyond counterpoint? I've comsumed Gradus Ad Parnassum, and was wondering what a good next step would be?
It depends on what you want to learn beyond counterpoint. If you want to learn more 18th century composition theory, I really enjoyed David Ledbetter's "Continuo Playing According to Handel," which teaches elementary thoroughbass using practical keyboard exercises. I found this to be a much more enjoyable way to learn that subject than other, wordier textbooks.
Hello @balbino4, you can work with me on my teachable course where I teach species counterpoint, but at the moment those are the only composition lessons I am offering outside of my university teaching. Best wishes. jacobgranmusictheory.teachable.com/p/classical-counterpoint
Thank you for great videos and information explained! Only one question, in 3rd measure it creates an arpeggio passage (13:50) adding c to the 2nd beat, that means it is permitted right? one of my teachers told me in the past i shouldnt do it. Thank you in advance.
Great question. I would say the avoidance of arpeggios is a good rule of thumb in the earlier species because we don’t want the student to be focused on chords or harmony. 2-voice counterpoint should focus on the voice leading of harmonic intervals without consideration of harmonic progression. But it is not an explicit rule stated by Fux, he simply says you shouldn’t leap in the same direction twice unless one of the leaps is small, like the initial third in m. 3. In fifth species we approach free composition, which means we start to include a little more harmonic thinking (the elaboration of the suspension in m. 8 for instance is also a kind of arpeggiation that Fux allows in fifth species).
![CAMPปลิ้น | EP.82[1/2] แก๊ง 3 สาวเพื่อนซี้บุก CAMPปลิ้นครั้งนี้ห้ามเสียอาการ](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_6WUjXHe1TM/mqdefault.jpg)
Why does Fux use a Bb in the 4th measure? To outline a Gm chord?
Good question. It may have been for harmonic reasons, but in counterpoint exercises most of Fux's explanations are focused on melody. B-flats are used in Dorian very freely, whenever it might improve the melodic line. I think here, Fux uses it because the melody is basically descending on its way to A on the next downbeat, and after that he reverts back to B-natural when the melody ascends, just like is traditionally taught in the melodic minor scale. Unfortunately there are no easy-to-summarize rules about when to use those accidentals in modal species counterpoint (that I know of at least).
If you know Jeppesen's book on counterpoint, he has a section in the first part that deals with the difference between the ecclesiastical modes and what he calls the "polyphonic" modes used in these exercises. Maybe I should make a video on that because this question comes up a lot.
Your approach on counterpoint is clear and easy to understand. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Jacob, thank you for making these. I teach freshman level theory that covers species counterpoint and I appreciate seeing your approach to your organization and presentation of this material. 1) it makes me feel good I generally present things very similarly to you and 2) it's good to have a fresh perspective on material that might have gotten a bit stale for me.
Now, when you complete the series on imitative counterpoint I'll have homework for myself!
Thank you Trent and good luck with the semester!
Really nice video and explanations. Sincerely, thank you. One thin bugs me though. In the second measure of the Fux example, the counterpoint line goes below the CF. Is this permitted in species counterpoint? Also, what are your thoughts on crossing voices (voice registers?) from a compositional perspective?
Great question. I understand that allowing voice crossings defeats the purpose of composing a counterpoint "above" or "below" a Cantus firmus, but I do not believe it is a true error of any kind, as long as the voice leading is still correct and melodic independence is maintained. In some situations it is definitely the best solution, and it occurs frequently in real music, therefore I would encourage students to remember that it is an option (if not necessarily the first option).
Can a consonance ligature stay for 1 quarter in the next bar (and be followed by one/many quarter notes) or should it stay for a half?
In fourth species it would need to be a half note even if it is consonant, but in fifth species we can definitely tie to a quarter, and since the note is consonant it can go wherever on beat 2.
Excellent video, Jacob! I was just wondering why are there so many consecutive perfect intervals in the fifth species exemple if they're usually considered bad voice leading... are they allowed in this form of counterpoint?
Refere-se ao que acontece, por exemplo, no terceiro compasso?
One thing that I think I'm getting tied up on... and I think I may have answered my own question in writing about it.
As an inexperienced hobbyist composer, one could "evolve" a 1st species counterpoint through to 5th species. I presume then, that to further develop it into a proper 2-voice counterpoint-style composition, one could then treat the counterpoint line as a "developed" cantus firmus, and repeat working the semibreve line (that was previously the cantus firmus) through 1st-5th species of counterpoint against what was the counterpoint line?
This is a great question. Analysis and composition are like a two-way street, one breaks down and the other builds up. I would prefer to reframe your thought process in terms of analysis rather than composition. Take some "florid" two-voice compositions, like any of the wonderful Duos by Lassus, and see if you can't analyze them in terms of dissonance treatment. Can we really reduce both voices all the way down to something that looks like a first species exercise? In some measures we'll come close, but the much more important thing is to understand the preparation and resolution of all of the different kinds of dissonance employed. If you become fluent enough in analyzing and interpreting this music, composing it directly with florid melodies should not be too difficult. It is much less mechanical than the other way around, and it is closer to what those composers were actually doing.
Hey there! Thanks for the videos, it is very appreciatable, and the content is of obvious quality. Here's a small question : though many of the rules discussed in the previous videos make sense to me, I'm a little surprised that the dissonances that appear in fourth species have to resolve downwards. It feels very "specific"... Why is that? Thank you for answering if you do, or thanks to anyone else that has an answer to offer! Else, I'll do a little research.
Excellent question. I agree with Felix Salzer that the downward resolution in strict 4th species is mainly a pedagogical rule to make teaching and learning easier. The principal suspension dissonances 4-3 and 7-6 occur very frequently in the style of Palestrina, whom Fux took as a model, but upward resolving suspensions of 7-8 (especially at cadences), 9-10, and 2-3 mainly occur in later instrumental music of the classical composers. In other words, upward resolutions occur in "free" composition rather than "strict."
@@JacobGran Thank you for your quick and very satisfactory answer. Have just subscribed to your channel!
I love your channel! If I may ask, the main issue that I don't fully grasp is the use of accidentals in the modes, if Dorian has a B natural why often use a B-flat? He used it in the 5th measure and then went back to the B natural..
That is a very large topic! I think a great starting place is this video on "Musica Ficta" by Early Music Sources:
th-cam.com/video/6VF6YkCNRyE/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for the videos! RU Theory I Class!!!
This channel is really great. The idea of picking up Fux, Mozart, Haydn, Albrechtberger, Beethoven, Schubert, Tchaikovsky, Sechter lessons and by other (some as student, some as teacher) to showing the counterpoint issues was really good.
Dear Dr. Gran, thanks for this brilliantly logical explanation! Some time ago I wrote a fugue (th-cam.com/video/R-p5Q8I2B50/w-d-xo.html) which I maintain obeys the rules, at least as regards the exposition - but it was hotly contested (bars 2 and 3 of the answer) by a musician friend. I cannot agree - would you (or any of your many followers) be kind enough to let me know which of us is wrong (and why)?
Nice fugue! I wouldn't phrase it as right or wrong, but rather as what style of counterpoint we are attempting. In my opinion, this fugue is well written as an 18th century "stile antico" fugue for organ, but it therefore includes some things that would not have occurred in 15th and 16th c vocal music (which the stile antico of later generations was meant to imitate). I assume the objections to measures 8 and 9 are the dissonance between F and B natural. However, if I remember correctly, there were some 18th c Italian contrapuntists who permitted melodic leaps of a diminished fifth (as occurs in your subject between mm.3-4 and in the CS1 in m.9), even in strict counterpoint, but did not allow the augmented fourth as a melodic interval. But those leaps would not be idiomatic of Palestrina or Lassus.
However, what strikes me are the syncopated syncopations in measures 10-11. The suspension dissonance on the weak final beat of m. 10 that resolves on the downbeat of m. 11 would be controversial even in the 18th century, although it offends my eyes more than my ears.
Thank you very much for your detailed reply! Yes, the style is much more in that of, say, Mendelssohn, for example It is definitely not in the species-counterpoint style of Lassus or Palestrina. Your last sentence is what my Italian friend said - "Bella fuga, ma non ubedisce le regole!". Well, if it doesn't offend your ears, but gives them pleasure, I have done my duty as a composer! I have written other contrapuntal stuff, including a triple fugue which I would like to pick your wonderful brains on, but that would be greedy.!@@JacobGran
Thank you. I was having hard time finish reading my music composition book, your video help me grind through all the counterpoint chapters. Some of the info presented in the book was really confusing, your video made the same idea sound so much simple to understand.
I've had to use www.ars-nova.com, openmusictheory.com, and this channel to understand it completely. There's many different details written in each one that can be helpful to know.
Excellent series, thank you for this!
Understood. But NOW comes the hard part.
I need help. 3 part writing… is tough
This was excellent! Do you have book recommendations that go beyond counterpoint? I've comsumed Gradus Ad Parnassum, and was wondering what a good next step would be?
It depends on what you want to learn beyond counterpoint. If you want to learn more 18th century composition theory, I really enjoyed David Ledbetter's "Continuo Playing According to Handel," which teaches elementary thoroughbass using practical keyboard exercises. I found this to be a much more enjoyable way to learn that subject than other, wordier textbooks.
Good evening, Dr. Jacob Gran!
I would like to know how I can take private Composition lessons with you.
Thank you very much.
Hello @balbino4, you can work with me on my teachable course where I teach species counterpoint, but at the moment those are the only composition lessons I am offering outside of my university teaching. Best wishes.
jacobgranmusictheory.teachable.com/p/classical-counterpoint
Great series, I'm going through this and the voice leading playlist in order to approach schenkerian analysis, you do amazing work congratulations!
Thank you very much!
Thank you for making this video. It was really helpful :)
Thank you for great videos and information explained! Only one question, in 3rd measure it creates an arpeggio passage (13:50) adding c to the 2nd beat, that means it is permitted right? one of my teachers told me in the past i shouldnt do it. Thank you in advance.
Great question. I would say the avoidance of arpeggios is a good rule of thumb in the earlier species because we don’t want the student to be focused on chords or harmony. 2-voice counterpoint should focus on the voice leading of harmonic intervals without consideration of harmonic progression. But it is not an explicit rule stated by Fux, he simply says you shouldn’t leap in the same direction twice unless one of the leaps is small, like the initial third in m. 3. In fifth species we approach free composition, which means we start to include a little more harmonic thinking (the elaboration of the suspension in m. 8 for instance is also a kind of arpeggiation that Fux allows in fifth species).
@@JacobGran I got my lesson then! Thank you so much!
Thank you very much for the teaching, Very valuable topic.
Thank You.
You are very welcome
Do you teach private lessons on Skype ?
I teach students on Patreon, but by email mostly.