How to Compose 2:1 Counterpoint || Tonal Voice Leading 2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2024
- In this video, we learn the principles of tonal voice-leading when one melody is moving twice as fast as the other (2:1 Counterpoint, also known as second species counterpoint). That means composing a counter melody in half-notes against a given melody in whole-notes.
2:1 (2nd Species) Counterpoint 0:54
Mozart edits Fux 14:02
Homework 20:30
Tonal Voice Leading Playlist:
• Tonal Voice Leading
My new counterpoint course on Teach:able
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#musictheory #composition #mozart
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It's borderline criminal that over a half a million views gathered on the video and not even a tenth of them continued to the next step.
It's close to only 10% that followed to the next step, so yeah, kind of criminal
@@denniskylling3887⅒ is 10%
Criminal? It shows that the people watching are actually doing the homework before moving on to the next step, which is the best way to learn something. I should hope that the number of views would slowly drop off as the course goes on, otherwise there would be no point in OP suggesting exercises for the viewer to complete because everyone was just binging it. People have lives. It took me several days before I came up with counterpoints for the two assignments from the first video, and I don't have a hectic schedule. Making sure it followed all the rules wasn't the easiest thing, trying to fill in the notes of a leap without writing parallel intervals is surprisingly tricky. I'm technically cheating a little because I did both of my solutions over the cantus firmus, and I initially didn't want to move on until I'd found a baseline solution for both as well. But now I have a hymn I want to try writing a counterpoint for, so I kind of need to move on to this video. I'll go back to those original videos and redo those exercises afterwards. I don't know but I'm guessing a lot of people are doing the same thing.
You would deserve millions of views; it's one of the best counterpoint videos right now on the net. You are a great musician! Musician is not only who composes musics, but who thinks and makes people think in music. Thank you very much for this magnificent creation!
This comment made my day, thanks!
I agree with you completely. Jacob, you have amazing videos!
Massimo, how fun to see your comment here. I agree. this is a great page.
Totally agree, everything is explained so well. These videos are timeless, and I have alot more to get through!
Jacob - I have been a musician since a young kid (like many) but always felt composition was somehow beyond me. After practicing just a small number of 1:1 exercises following the guidelines of your previous video I NOW KNOW I CAN DO IT! Thank you very much for these clear, straight-forward lectures. Big fan.
I wish I'd had this kind of thorough training in the nuts & bolts of music at university - so concise and lucid.
Thank you!
I’m a freshman taking music theory, and we’re currently composing counterpoint, and it is so difficult!!!! But your videos help me a lot more than my textbook, and makes it less confusing, so thank you
Thanks, glad it was helpful!
Amazing tutorials! Great job!
Very very very very good!
Thank you very much, Dr. Jacob Gran!
I love the explanations and visuals, really clear and well organized! I do wish you played music of the examples more throughout, I think it would give a little more context for anyone that may not be able to readily play the notation on the screen. Thank you for making this and sharing it! I've learned a lot!
Thank you! Others have mentioned that as well, and I’ve tried to include more audio clips in my more recent videos.
I am teaching myself to compose. The structure of your videos are so perfect for me. Im so excited for this journey!
Hi Jacob, you are a really great teacher - love your presentation in these videos! Keep up the good work :)
Glad you like them!
Thank you for this excellent lesson! I appreciate all of the audio examples.
That is astonishingly amazingly extremely helpful. Thanks!
Glad to hear you found it helpful!
Wow, how did I miss this for so long ! This is a gem, if I could subscribe 1 million times to help you get closer to the amount of subscribers you deserve I would do it every day of the week. Thank you so much.
Thx. Very nice refresher for me. Clear, concise and well presented.
Glad it was helpful!
your videos are very helpful and MANY people appreciate them!
Thank you!
I m an amateur learner with 0 music background.
But I m interested in music composition and I found this gem at the right time.
Thankyou sir.
Congratulations on your incredible work. It is very good for us to have access to this kind of knowledge. You passed the information in a clear, objective and very well structured way. congratulations again
Thank you sir i owe you a lot! I watch the video many many times!
I think you have the most perfect pacing to your videos. I think if I just saw a clip of your video I would think you talk too slowly but in the broader picture of things you really give enough time to let things sink in and ensure understanding
Extremely helpful lessons. Thank you so much ❤
You're welcome!
Thank you very much!
Thank you for the video, it's so helpful!
Glad you found it helpful!
This one was fantastic, thank you. Will continue in the series, this helped me a lot even I write chord based music.
I cannot give you a better endorsement than the comment which appears below.
Thank you for your thorough analysis, sir. Fux still matters!
Very educational! I hope you can make one for dummies in the future where you provide audio examples of what you mean! I wish I could hear the sound that you described
I preferred the Fux over the Mozart and Salzer, but that's because it feels more musical due to the motivic elements that get criticised. What a brilliant video by the way. Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge and insights!
Many compliments your videos are the best on the art of counterpoint. I would like to have you as my teacher even if I teach...thank you.
You are very welcome!
19:00 "Redundant repetition." Yes, one should avoid repeating oneself redundantly over and over again. 8-)
Seriously, though ... I suspect one reason why there are three different "solutions" for the counterpoint is that the sense of what "sounds right" had changed over the years.
Very interesting to hear!
Glad you think so!
Thank you for this
You're very welcome. Glad you found the video useful!
amazing
Hello sir. I'm a fan of your channel. Thank you for making these videos. I was just wondering where I could find examples of completed examples for these exercises by Albrechtsberger and such? I just wanted to compare mine with great ones and see if I could try and correct improve my counterpoints.Thank you.
I just keep coming back to these vids to make sure i didn't miss anything.
you are a lifesaver
Thanks!
Thank you for the lesson! Is there any reason dissonances in the opposite direction are not allowed? For example, at 4:14, why is CDA considered a bad counterpoint?
Great question. The example of C-D-A that you gave would be called an escape tone, "echappee," or incomplete neighbor. It's not that escape tones are bad counterpoint, it's that they aren't part of the strict species system. The idea was to start the student with the central core of stuff like 1:1 consonances and then slowly grow outwards from there, so that the student can incorporate the more complicated ideas into a basic ("strict") framework of prior knowledge. One of the most basic rules of strict counterpoint is that dissonances resolve by step, and since the escape tone is an exception to that (resolving by leap), it is learned later on in the study of free composition, rather than in strict counterpoint.
First of all thank you for this detailed & clear exposition. You indicate dissonances should occur step-wise between notes heading in one direction as passing tones, e.g. ABC.
I saw another teacher's introduction to 2nd species in which 'neighbor notes' are allowed, i.e., a dissonance can be approached & left by the same note, e.g. CBC.
Are variations in the rules such as this just a matter of different historical and/or personal perspectives?
Great question. The short answer is yes, it is a matter of which method/historical perspective you are working from. Fux originally did not allow neighbor notes in any of the species, but by the time we get to the 20th century most authors allow neighbor notes. The question then became whether to include neighbor notes in second species or in third species, and they could not rely on Fux as an authority to decide the matter. I give my opinion and discuss this issue in more detail in the next video in this playlist, on "How to Compose 3:1 Counterpoint."
@@JacobGran Thank you very much for the prompt & clear reply.
Your conscientiousness answering viewer questions is noteworthy, if you'll forgive the pun.
This is fantastic. The 3rd time I am watching this before I attempt to do the exercises :) I have one question regarding the cadence options. So perfect intervals are not ok on consecutive downbeats but they are ok as long as it is a cadence? At the end you have a P5 to octave in your 2:1 cadence example. I also noticed in Salzers example of Fux's counterpoint that they use consecutive perfect intervals on the downbeats (P5 to octave)
Yes, avoiding consecutive perfect intervals is only really relevant for first species, when there are no intervening notes, and even there it is one of the softer rules. Perfect intervals on consecutive downbeats in the other species only becomes a problem if they are approached in direct motion, which is not what happens with the 5 6 | 8 cadence.
Could you work through a 2:1 exercise in another video as you did for 1:1 counterpoint?
one question about the Mozart adaptation: it seems like, from the 1:1 counterpoint video, one should avoid having the high point of the new melody occur in the same place as the high point in the cantus firmus, but that's what happens here. Is that "bad"?
No it’s not bad. On one end of the spectrum there are hard rules like “no parallel fifths,” that are usually explicitly stated, and then on the other end there are tendencies that one will notice by observing the given examples. Simultaneous high points are the latter: it’s just a piece of advice that I am giving and one can find many examples of good polyphony without it.
Perfect video, it’s been teaching me a lot!! Question, if I use consecutive 5ths in every upbeat, excluding in the end since it must have a 5-6-8 cadence, is that allowed?
Thanks for the question. You are allowed to have fifths on consecutive upbeats, but *every* upbeat would be a tiresome pattern, and we want to avoid any obvious patterning or motivic repetition.
Hi! I have a question regarding the Bach example shown around 7:30. You say there are consecutive fifths on some upbeats, and there are, but I've noticed that you marked the tritones between the low C sharp and the high G naturals as fifths, and between the G sharps and the D naturals too. Why is that?, Im writting and essay on Fux and I'm pretty confused with how intervals were described in this era. Anyways, love your videos!!! Great job, and thanks for the lectures
Great question. The motion between diminished fifths and perfect fifths is usually called "unequal fifths," and I didn't want to open up a can of worms getting into a discussion of them. For example, some consider unequal fifths acceptable only between inner voices (which is not the case here), or only moving from the perfect fifth downward to the diminished fifth (these are ascending), etc. In my opinion, unequal fifths are fine in many cases, but I didn't want to set any kind of hard rules in a video not directly on that topic.
One of my friends told me that you shouldn't leap to unison, but you allowed (perhaps even recommended?) it in this video.
I don't want to give the impression that you should overuse them; they are the strongest possible perfect consonance, so they don't promote voice leading independence and "lack harmony" according to Fux. But unisons can be used on the weak beat in any of the species going forward, and the example at 11:39 in the video shows one example where the unison can be used to good effect.
This is great. Going to make some cool pop songs one day with this knowledge. 👍🏻
The interesting thing is the counterpoint from Salzer/Schachter at 19:30 has a "mistake" in Fux's perspective.Notes of Bar7 upbeat are both stepwise to an octave,which sounds like the end ,is prohibited. page 37.
Thanks for this video. What I do wonder: both Fux and Jeppesen regard a fourth as dissonant. From the fourth to the fifth downbeat, both Mozart and Salzer compose a melodic fourth: F to B flat. A dissonant interval, not a tritone, but dissonant nonetheless. What makes this allowed here according to you?
Good question. Fux and (as far as I know) all others consider the fourth dissonant in only one case: when it is formed harmonically between a part and the bass voice. Melodic fourths and harmonic fourths between upper parts are totally fine even in strict exercises.
it’s all valid...such dissonance is fine- even necessary- if it fits the mood of the composition.
Another great video Jacob. May I ask what program did you use for the notation? I'm finding it challenging doing the analytic diagrams with standard notation programs. Of course, I could use a pencil and paper. Thanks!
I use Finale, but it is a lot of work making the diagrams even on there. I recommend pencil and manuscript paper. Also, I am reworking how to do these analytic diagrams. My original intention was to slowly build up to full blown Schenkerian analytic notation, but I abandoned that a while ago. I'm starting to think it is easier to indicate passing tones for instance with a slur between the interval figures beneath the score instead of between the notes themselves. Anyway thanks for the question.
@@JacobGran Ok Finale. I should've known. I started doing these exercises in Finale but just a little bit. I've been doing them in Musescore. I've just been using it for a while and my Finale demo is about to expire! Anyway, I agree, I find it easier to just do these exercises the old fashioned way; at the piano with manuscript paper and pencil. Thanks again.
Your lessons are amazing! I am learning english too! I have a question though: can I put two fifths in two consecutive upbeats?
Yes, the intervening interval on the downbeat will be very prominent in the ear because it is accented, so the fifths will not sound consecutive at all.
@@JacobGran thanks for you answer!
Hi Jacob. Can these rules be applied in a harmonic context such as in 4 part harmony between bass and soprano? Or would some of the rules be more flexible when working with chords?
Good question, Arman. Very little changes with passing dissonances as more voices are added, other than that it is possible to have simultaneous passing tones. Video 14 in the playlist gives an overview of "passing chords," but looking back if I really wanted to be thorough I could have created separate videos on 3-voice and 4-voice strict 2nd-species exercises.
Note how Salzer/Schachter leap a fourth upwards, that is not immediately recovered by a step into the opposite direction. Instead there is a leap of an octave and then a step into the opposite direction of this leap. This does three things as I read it. First it delays the step. Second it shifts it into a lower register. Third it inverts the direction of the recovering step.
There is also a downward leap of a fourth, that is not recovered immediately, but within the next four notes.
Everything is very well explained. How could the Spanish subtitles be corrected?, because they have some errors, for example: the word "slurr" (minute 5:25) is translated as "insult". The subtitles are understandable, but with some corrections they could be greatly improved.
Thank you very much for sharing your work.
(Google translator)
Original message:
Está todo muy bien explicado. ¿Cómo se podrían corregir los subtítulos en castellano?, porque tienen algunos errores, por ejemplo: la palabra "slurr" (minuto 5:25) está traducida como "insulto". Los subtítulos se entienden, pero con algunas correcciones se podrían mejorar mucho.
Muchas gracias por compartir tu trabajo.
Thanks Andres; I apologize for the poor translation. I will have to go back and fix this one since it is quite bad (and funny), but there are certainly going to be other errors because I only created the translations with Google translator.
I have a question. In the weak-Fux example you said that in counterpoint exercise repetition of motif is not good. But in the Bach example (Piston fig 126) Bach clearly is very repetitive with motifs (the bass is doing the same thing twice for example and there are more motifs that just repeat)
I know that Fux is also limited to this fourth range and it's not clear where is his high point, but other than that why the repetition of motifs is wrong (something Bach does a lot)
Also I would like to add your videos are the best! They are the most helpful!
Good question. The simple answer is that the Bach example is from real repertoire, not an exercise, whereas using repeated motives in a strict exercise is a little like cheating. It’s just too easy to create a sense of melodic coherence with motives; the difficult thing in an exercise is creating a coherent contour for a single large, unbroken melody. Motivic repetition has a place in counterpoint, but it is usually introduced much later.
@@JacobGran I understand now. Thanks a lot!
When studying 1:1 counterpoint, we learned a strategy for solving the exercises by first focusing on the climax and the final note. However, this approach did not work well for the example provided by Fux. As a result, I developed a different strategy.
My approach begins by creating a solution that is closest to the cantus firmus. This allows me to quickly arrive at a working solution. Then, through an evolutionary process, I move chunks of two or four notes to a greater distance, while still maintaining a functional solution.
The first step is to place thirds on all downbeats. Next, I fill in the upbeats with unisons or fifths as needed. As long as there are no fifths on the downbeats, a fifth on the upbeat will not cause any issues.
Hi Jacob, I have a question: how do we end a 2:1 counterpoint composition in minor? I noticed that when I tried to do the step 6, 7, 8 (in D minor the notes Bb, C, D) over step 2 (E) and step 1 (D) in the given melody, it means that the first interval would be a diminished 5th (E and Bb) which I don't think is allowed here. I hope you can clarify how it works in minor keys. Thanks for the great video.
Right good question; we want to raise the leading tone (in this case ^7 C-sharp) but B-flat to C-sharp would be an augmented step, so we also need to raise ^6 (B-natural). B natural on the downbeat also solves the problem of a diminished fifth since B is a perfect fifth above E. So the normal cadence in D minor is B - C# - D.
Thank you for the helpful video! One question about the upbeat leaps: if there is an octave jump in D minor from the downbeat to the upbeat (say A5 to A4) and it is followed by a raised 6th on the next downbeat (B natural) for the 5 6 8 cadence, would it be a dissonant 7th between the A and B? Or is it still considered a 2nd?
Do you mean like the cadence of the Salzer/Schachter example at 18:38 in the video? That would be considered a normal stepwise motion, and the seventh between consecutive downbeats does not count as a dissonant "outline" because the note B4 is not the locally lowest note since it is preceded by the lower A4.
@@JacobGran Yes, thank you for the explanation!
My brain does not always work the same way as everyone else, so this might be a stupid question. If a Cantus Fermus were Phrygian, would a major second accidental be a dissonant leap (or the dominant seven in major I guess)? I think this might be an artifact of my brain processing upward and downward intervals of the same scale as being different things (Descending Locrian having the same step progression pattern as Ascending Lydian). I think I am going to back and practice the first one some more.
Good question. For cadences in the Phrygian mode, the Cantus firmus usually descends by a minor second, F - E (^2 - ^1), which is different from every other mode. The counterpoint melody then can simply cadence by an ascending major second, D - E (^7 - ^1), without any accidentals. Raising the leading tone would create a dissonant augmented sixth (between F and D-sharp) so we don't bother using leading tones in Phrygian. A common 2:1 cadence would be half-notes C - D | E over the cantus firmus whole-notes F | E.
In the minor mode in general though, be careful that the raised leading tone isn't approached by an augmented second, like for instance F - G-sharp | A in Aeolian. Most often we raise ^6 to avoid the augmented step: F-sharp - G-sharp | A.
@@JacobGran Thank you. It may take me some time to digest the answer. Thank you very much.
“The man who asks a question is a fool for a minute, the man who does not ask is a fool for life.”
Must be played the example every time will be more clear
In Mozart and Schacters counterpoints they dont change direction after a leap of a 4th. Is this ok? In some of my books a 4th leap is usually followed by a change of direction. Thank you very much Jacob Gran
when doing the counterpoint below the CF you provided it is a bit hard to compose a low point because the cadence itself has a low point of a 12th interval and from what you said in earlier videos, giant intervals should be avoided. So is it ok that the low point of the counterpoint is the part at the end with the cadence?
The cadence can definitely form the low point of the bass line. More important than picking a distant low point though is to ask whether the countermelody has a clear goal directed shape throughout. If it does, the specific high or low points are less important.
Amazing lesson as the previous one, but I also have a question:
About 9:19, you've said "we aren't going to use any tone repetitions", as (on the downbeat) they're equivalent to 1:1 counterpoint that was already covered in the previous video. But around 13:45, you've said that it's also possible to use a whole-note cadence (which inherently means a tone repetition) in a 2:1 counterpoint. So: *Is the whole-note cadence the only exception to the "no tone repetitions" rule?* 🤔
Yes!
@@JacobGran Thanks Jacob!
In Fux's book, he describes the use of allowing Direct Motion to a Perfect Consonance being allowed only by having your upbeat note 4 intervals below the top note of your downbeat. This is explained in the context of the Cantus firmus being on the bottom.
My question is, when the Cantus Firmus is on the top, is this rule still valid? If so, is it then the upbeat should be 4 intervals above the bottom note of the downbeat?
Good question. Fux says that if you are going to have perfect consonances on consecutive downbeats, you must have a leap on the intervening upbeat larger than a third (fourth or bigger) in order to distract the ear from the sound of parallel perfect intervals, and I would imagine that he would say the same thing holds below a cantus firmus as well. So, for example, Fux would allow something like:
Cantus firmus: | C2 | D2 ||
8 5 8
Counterpoint: | C1 F1 | D1 ||
In my opinion, though, perfect consonances on consecutive downbeats sound clunky, and there should always be a better solution in two-voice counterpoint. I talk about it a little bit starting at 6:23.
@@JacobGran Thank you for your answer. I do agree that it seems to defeat the purpose going from an 8th using a 5th to another 8th and goes against everything taught in 1:1 while still being acceptable. Thank you for your videos. Without them Fux's book would not be as easy to comprehend in certain parts.
I am confused about Parallel Perfect invervals on consecutive downbeats. At the 6:55 mark, they are to be avoided but then 8:12 , it is ok. It is only a problem with parallel motion?
Yes, the example at 6:55 moves from a P5th on the first downbeat to a P5th on the next downbeat, and no matter what we compose on the upbeat in between them, it will still sound like parallel fifths because the fifths are accented. In the example at 8:12, we are moving from a 6th on the first downbeat to a P5th on the next, and this is direct (or similar) motion, not parallel. If we compose a leap on the upbeat that changes the direction of the approach to the P5th, the direct motion is hardly noticeable, so it's OK.
@@JacobGran Thank you for the fast reply. Much appreciated!
@@JacobGran soundcloud.com/user-131720543/2nd-species-counter-point-1-d-minor
would love your feedback on my first attempt at 2 to 1 Counterpoint. Link above.
When doing 2:1 exercises, do we start as we do with a 1:1 exercise, starting with all the downbeats, and then fill in the gaps?
You could, but that would not be a good way to guarantee fluency. I would recommend moving from one measure to the next, “aiming” at the next consonant downbeat but looking for opportunities for different kinds of dissonant passing tones on the upbeats.
@@JacobGran thanks Jacob! One more thing: regarding the half note cadences, would it not be possible to replace scale degree six with scale degree 4? (in this case F). I am struggling to understand why cadencing MUST be done in one of these few ways? thanks!
@@edbowles5497 I compiled the list of cadence formulas from different sources and examples, so the list could very well be incomplete. If other cadences exist, they are rare and difficult for me to picture (although I'd be happy if someone could find more).
A 2nd species cadence like the one you describe:
Ctpt: | F B | C ||
CF: | D | C ||
would require a melodic leap of an augmented fourth in the countermelody. This could happen in free composition, as an implied arpeggiation through a VII6 chord, but that leap is forbidden in strict counterpoint. I suppose it would be possible in some of the modes where ^4 and ^7 do not form a tritone, but this video series is based on the major/minor tonal system.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Is it permitted to use the 6-7-1 half note cadence shown at 13:30 when composing in a minor key? I heard somewhere you should avoid it since the movement from the 6 to the raised 7th would technically be an augmented second (though it spans the same as a minor third). I understand these rules are often broken in actual music but I'm just trying to be clear on what the rules are for the purpose of completing the excersises.
Great question that escaped my attention when I made this video. In the minor mode, both ^6 and ^7 are raised at such a cadence. So for instance in the key of A minor, F-sharp and G-sharp against the note B in the cantus firmus, forming a perfect fifth and major sixth in the penultimate measure.
@@JacobGran Ah yep, makes sense-- good old melodic minor! Thanks for the quick reply!
What about parallel fifths between upbeat and down beat consequently
Hey Jacob! I'm going through these exercises again and I remembered something that was bothering me since the very start. During the cadences, just how much chromatism/accidentals is/are allowed? For example, if we take Fux's Cantus Firmus, over the F -> E would something like A -> A# - > B - > C# be allowed? The augmented unison is a passing tone and since dissonances are allowed there, I'm guessing that it goes for any interval as long as the start and end point are diatonic., but I'm finding it hard to believe. Thanks!
Great question! Passing tones allow us to form dissonant harmonic intervals, but they don't allow us to use dissonant melodic intervals, such as augmented unisons or augmented 2nds. I could imagine another example where the difference would be more clear:
CF: D | C ||
6 5 3
Ctpt: F G# | A ||
The passing tone G-sharp and the CF form a diminished fifth, which would otherwise be a fine dissonant harmonic interval used as a passing tone, but this example is not possible in the strict style because the countermelody uses a melodic dissonance of an augmented second between F and G-sharp.
In free composition, of course, chromatic passing tones happen all over the place; I'm thinking of the fast section of Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu and some of the "Phrygian" flavor Mazurkas.
@@JacobGran Oh I feel a bit stupid now, from your very first video in this series, somehow the rule of having no melodic dissonance stuck in my brain but not the actual words and explanation. I'm fairly certain that I never broke that rule during these exercises, and if it really is the case, it was entirely subconscious, so thank you for taking the time to clarify!
Also another question, not exactly related to counterpoint, but I remember you mentioning that you were writing a book, is it still in the works?
In the end of the exercise in F major, we have a G followed by an F in the Cantus Firmus. If the student was to end the counterpoint through the 2:1 way that was passed (6 - 7 - 1), we would have a 5th (G - D) on one downbeat and an 8th (F - F) on the other, which we were told to avoid. Does this mean this exercise must obligatorily end on 1:1 counterpoint or are we allowed to end it in some other fashion rather than 6-7-1 (this was the way I chose, btw)? Just a minor doubt that ocurred me. And thank you for your videos, they're doing wonders to my creative processes.
Good question; the thing we would prefer to avoid would be consecutive perfect intervals of the same type: two fifths or two octaves, but fifth followed by octave is not bad. In fact, the "fifth - sixth | octave ||" pattern that you mention is completely standard. We'll be doing that a lot.
I hadn't noticed it didn't apply to 5ths followed by octaves. Thank you, it made things easier now for me.
for 2:1 counterpoint, does the movement always have to be 2:1 or could there be an occasional 1:1?
Hi Christopher. Some authors allow a measure of 1:1 in the second to last measure at the cadence, like in the example at the very beginning of the video, but only there.
where can I share and find answers for the homework?
curious to see what everyone did
Good question. In the next month or two I'm going to create a Patreon page that I hope to treat sort of like a virtual classroom where we can do stuff exactly like that.
Are you trying to avoid parallel 5th?
Should I write the downbeats first to visualize the motion?
If writing it out helps, then yes, absolutely. But you should keep an open mind about changing the downbeat note you are aiming towards, which might mean rewriting it. I guess my point is that you should choose an upbeat and the next downbeat at the same time, because they only make sense together.
A good question, and a good answer... thank you both (y)
Hello! I understood that repeated tones on downbeats were not allowed yet in Fux exercise that is what he does on the first two downbeats. Did I misunderstand something?
Repeated tones from upbeat to downbeat or from downbeat to upbeat are not allowed, as shown at 9:18. Repeating the same tone from one downbeat to another is perfectly fine.
@@JacobGran oh ok, great thank you
I am not sure I hear a problem with the dissonant leap from B to F @ 8:50. Is there a reason why this would be forbidden? Could this rule be a bit outdated now?
I mean, these are the rules from 300 years ago. They are definitely outdated, its just whether you want to stay in the style
13:30 isn't that half note cadence outlining consecutive perfect intervals? P5 to P8?
A few people have been confused by this so I must not have been clear enough in the video. The only potential weakness would be perfect intervals *of the same quality* on consecutive downbeats, like P8 - P8 or P5 - P5, since they can give the impression of parallel perfect intervals. Fux even allowed octaves on consecutive downbeats as long as the intervening weak beat used a large leap to distract the ear. Perfect intervals of different quality on consecutive downbeats like the one at this cadence are very normal.
@@JacobGran thanks for clarifying
Could someone tell me the title of the piece playing in the intro? It sounds interesting
Hi Lajos, that's actually a clip of an orchestra tuning up that I thought sounded nice.
Why we don't use dissonant neighbour tones in 2:1 counterpoint?
Let's talk of motifs. The cantus firmus is too long for a single one. Fux repeats his one multiple times, which becomes noodling around as you observed.
On the other hand, if you just walk up and down an octave from the beginning to the end, it is boring, too. There is a direction but rather no motif at all in this case. Salzer and Schachter just split the noodling into two levels.
How to deal with this? Maybe the answer is, that the exercise is only about goal directed voice leading and not about motifs. Then I would argue that Fux is only about harmony and not about goal directed voice leading.
If we include motifs, what is preferable? To have one motif with multiple repetitions or two motifs with few repetitions?
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I imagine it's highly unlikely someone will see this and reply, but just on the off chance... Could 'untitled 3' off of Panda Bear's album 'Young Prayer' be considered an example of 2:1 counterpoint?
Are you allowed to use even tritones on the weak beat?
Yup, any dissonant interval.
@@JacobGran Thank you so much for the answer, I practiced 1:1 counterpoint by watching your videos, (both from this new series and from the old one) I wrote 4 pages full of exercises and it feels natural for me right now to write 1:1 counterpoint and I think its time to move to 2:1 even tho I will still keep practicing 1:1 as well
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can you use a fifth on the downbeat?
Yes, the only perfect consonance we should avoid on the downbeat is the unison, unless it is the first or last measure.
4:22 : Dissonant Passing Tone
I think you over estimate my mind's ear.
I'm going to add one thought to this. It is less than acceptable to use a perfect consonsnce on the "upbeat" as you call it, but on the second note of the counterpoint, or not on the downbeat. The perfect consonance will sound like a stopping place, which should not happen on the "upbeat." Check your sources. Otherwise not bad.
Most of these examples sound good being played on the piano, but this was supposed to be two VOICES, so the sustained sound makes perfect intervals on the offbeat sound way worse. Even the Mozart.
I find writing a counterpoint under Albrechtsberger's first cantus firmus to be rather difficult, for some reason. Maybe it's just me.
It's be great if the rules were in the description so we could quickly refer to them in the Homework section. Also, thank you!
Very much this. As you were reviewing the rules I learned I broke a few in the 1:1.
Wait what this posted 2 years ago and has 82k views? I see only people who are willing to learn will watch this video :)
Here's a little summary:
SECTION 1 - What's new?
-- GROUPING ACCENT - duple meter - downbeat is more accented than upbeat because of the group of notes - this results in different rules
-- CONSONANT INTERVALS may appear on both downbeat and upbeat; two consecutive leaps in same direction are more acceptable than in 1:1; 5-6 relationship is only way to step from a consonance to another consonance
-- DISSONANT PASSING TONE - only on upbeat and only by stepwise motion in one direction
-- PARALLELS - avoid parallel fifths and octaves both in steps and on consecutive downbeats (consecutive upbeats is ok though) - direct 5ths on downbeats is ok if the upbeat creates contrary motion
-- DISSONANT OUTLINES - avoid them! (except as part of a recovery after a consonant leap)
-- NO REPEATED TONES
SECTION 2 - Improving melodic lines
-- UPBEAT LEAPS - can improve melodic lines - "gap-fills" create strong goal-direct forward motion
-- PERFECT UNISONS - are permitted on an upbeat
-- HOW TO BEGIN - downbeat or rest and begin on upbeat
-- HOW TO CADENCE - half-note or whole-note cadence
-- CRITIQUE OF FUX'S EXAMPLE - limited range; no goal; motivic repetition
SECTION 3 - Homework - (see ending of the video)
Let me know if I missed anything or if anything needs clarification. I hope this help!
Thank you so much!
@@vuotasera no problem!
Sadly, way less audio examples. Still great video
i prefered Fux’ example 😅
TH-cam’s Nadia B.
Well done! I am going through species counterpoint exercises again, this time with a private composition student and trying to convince other students to join in. As a pianist and teacher, these exercises give me clarity and understanding in guiding my students both with piano and composition. As a composer, I hope to compose cross rhythm counterpoint. Below is my first attempt. I appreciate your feedback and guidance. I just composed this trio: th-cam.com/video/-Flzo97gA4M/w-d-xo.html
Lovely, especially the flexible phrase lengths and ties in the flute melody. You might look at the first two etudes from Chopin's Trois Nouvelles Etudes, which in my opinion are not just pianistic studies in how to perform cross-rhythms, but are also compositional studies in the types of dissonances and chord types that can pop up when contrapuntal lines are rhythmically shifted in funny ways. Fascinating stuff.
@@JacobGran Thank you so much for your encouragement and helpful feedback.
An almost linear solution for Fux: - downwards - f, d, c, a, g, e, - upwards - f, a, b-flat, c, d, e, f, a, b-flat - terminus - g, a, - octave down - a - final cadence. Also boring, no noodling, but no motifs.
Why are there so many rules
No, Bach has made Counterpoint
How are there no examples. Wtf