Thank you so much for creating these free videos. It's fallen to me to write vocal harmonies for a group of musicians I've started playing with. I'm well used to applying music theory but actually sitting and composing harmonies (or, as I now know how to think of them: counterpoint) is new to me. These videos are helping me greatly, and they're ideal since I personally work best from a theory-based approach to creativity. Much love from Cork, Ireland
In triple meter, the rhythmic value for third species counterpoint is a six accompaniment-note to each one of the c.f. not 3 as demonstrated in this video.
Mr. Belkin seems to have a more liberal style. There's a number of things he does which are distinct from other, more conservative, texts that I've read. I think it's good to be aware of both, so you can see the guidelines you relate to most as a kind of axis of the possibilities.
In your examples, dissonances can occur on all beats but the first. Isn't the third beat in a 4/4 measure also a strong beat and should therefor be consonant?
Something I forgot to ask when this was released. Where do you stand on the "standard" exceptions to the "no leap to/from a dissonance" rule (double neighbour, nota cambiata, echappée) in third species? Different teachers seem to have different opinions.
Part of species counterpoint is learning subtle control of harmonic tension/dissonance. The main thing to aim for is consistency in the way they are used. If you use things like the double neighbour, either use them throughout or only at an important point, e.g. the cadence.
The parallels in the "parallels" example a is bad, because the parallels occur between the fourth beat of measure 1 and the first of measure 2... the first beat, at least in this tempo, is clearly already forgotten
At 3:42, in the improved version to get rid of parallel fifths / octaves: Measure 3, beat three is a fifth and measure 4, beat 2 is a fifth. Based on the previous (bad) example, it seems this should also be a parallel fifth. The only difference I can see is strong vs. weak beat. Is there a better explanation than that?
I should have watched a few seconds longer before asking. The next section explains: different beat strengths AND different melodic patterns. Is that correct?
@@joenuevo I just saw your comment, and posted the same thing about the perfect interval in that example. What he explains next, to me, means that, if you want to use a parallel perfect within four beats then its use must be at least be different i.e. neighbor tone vs passing tone. However, those examples were on weak beats whereas the apparent error that we're pointing out is simply a parallel on the strong beats, so the effective use doesn't seem much different.
Thanks Alan for this amazing series. One thing I have noticed is that many seem to say that only passing notes are allowed as dissonances. You seem to permit upper and lower neighbour notes. Is there some debate about this?
A question from 02:23, "At least one note in each bar should be a non-chord tone." Does this mean it is okay to have 2:2 (chord tone : non-chord tone) in a bar? Is 1:3 pushing the harmony too far?
Does this thinking make sense: "chord tones" refers to "consonant tones". A consonant should be on the first beat and the rest of the dissonances (2, 4, 7) should be approached and left stepwise (by consonant tones). Since dissonant tones must be surrounded by consonants, 1:3 is not possible where 2:2 will be possible.
@@MrKoubster It's perfectly ok to have 2 non-chord tones in a single bar, e.g. in a descending or ascending scale, or in a "turn" around the same note using the lower and upper neighbour notes, which would be, in A: A-G-A-B-[C or A]. Also, you're right: a 1:3 ratio is not possible.
He's defining them also as perfect intervals on same beats i.e. if there's a perfect on beat 2, measure 3, then beat 2, measure 4 must also not have a perfect interval.
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Very good!
Thank you very much, Mr. Alan Belkin!
Incredible resource, Thanks Alan.
Amazing Alan ! ! ! you have been my best teacher in all my university study :) In a class, it was epic :o
Thank you so much Alan! I am back taking a second look at a number of these. I cannot emphasize enough how good these are!
Thank you so much! I'm informally studying Counterpoint in my own time. These videos are truly helping a lot!
Your work is pure gold
Thanks a lot for this!
Thank you so much for creating these free videos. It's fallen to me to write vocal harmonies for a group of musicians I've started playing with. I'm well used to applying music theory but actually sitting and composing harmonies (or, as I now know how to think of them: counterpoint) is new to me. These videos are helping me greatly, and they're ideal since I personally work best from a theory-based approach to creativity. Much love from Cork, Ireland
In triple meter, the rhythmic value for third species counterpoint is a six accompaniment-note to each one of the c.f. not 3 as demonstrated in this video.
Great as usual! Thank you, sir.
Thanks Alan, a great revision for me.
0:21 - in my book there is written in this species of counterpoint 4:1 you cant have disonance on beat number 3, because its also heavy beat.
Mr. Belkin seems to have a more liberal style. There's a number of things he does which are distinct from other, more conservative, texts that I've read. I think it's good to be aware of both, so you can see the guidelines you relate to most as a kind of axis of the possibilities.
Thank you so much, Alan. Very insightfull.
8:40 Tenor part in an alto clef!
Oops. You are right! :-(
Good range though. I think we can cope.
Great video Alan! The visuals help immensely
In your examples, dissonances can occur on all beats but the first. Isn't the third beat in a 4/4 measure also a strong beat and should therefor be consonant?
3:36 is there not a parallel fifth from measure 3, beat 3 (F - C) to measure 4, beat 1 (A - E)?
Something I forgot to ask when this was released. Where do you stand on the "standard" exceptions to the "no leap to/from a dissonance" rule (double neighbour, nota cambiata, echappée) in third species? Different teachers seem to have different opinions.
Part of species counterpoint is learning subtle control of harmonic tension/dissonance. The main thing to aim for is consistency in the way they are used. If you use things like the double neighbour, either use them throughout or only at an important point, e.g. the cadence.
Excellent answer, thank you.
8:55 sir for a dotted minim we can also write 4 dotted quavers in counter point know sir...?
The parallels in the "parallels" example a is bad, because the parallels occur between the fourth beat of measure 1 and the first of measure 2... the first beat, at least in this tempo, is clearly already forgotten
At 3:42, in the improved version to get rid of parallel fifths / octaves:
Measure 3, beat three is a fifth and measure 4, beat 2 is a fifth. Based on the previous (bad) example, it seems this should also be a parallel fifth. The only difference I can see is strong vs. weak beat. Is there a better explanation than that?
I should have watched a few seconds longer before asking. The next section explains: different beat strengths AND different melodic patterns. Is that correct?
@@joenuevo I just saw your comment, and posted the same thing about the perfect interval in that example. What he explains next, to me, means that, if you want to use a parallel perfect within four beats then its use must be at least be different i.e. neighbor tone vs passing tone. However, those examples were on weak beats whereas the apparent error that we're pointing out is simply a parallel on the strong beats, so the effective use doesn't seem much different.
Thanks Alan for this amazing series. One thing I have noticed is that many seem to say that only passing notes are allowed as dissonances. You seem to permit upper and lower neighbour notes. Is there some debate about this?
No, all the counterpoint texts allow both neighbour notes and passing tones. It's totally normal
@@alanbelkin9272 I appreciate your reply. It makes complete sense. Thank you.
You should label the intervals to make it easier to read. Thanks!
A question from 02:23, "At least one note in each bar should be a non-chord tone."
Does this mean it is okay to have 2:2 (chord tone : non-chord tone) in a bar?
Is 1:3 pushing the harmony too far?
Does this thinking make sense: "chord tones" refers to "consonant tones". A consonant should be on the first beat and the rest of the dissonances (2, 4, 7) should be approached and left stepwise (by consonant tones). Since dissonant tones must be surrounded by consonants, 1:3 is not possible where 2:2 will be possible.
@@MrKoubster It's perfectly ok to have 2 non-chord tones in a single bar, e.g. in a descending or ascending scale, or in a "turn" around the same note using the lower and upper neighbour notes, which would be, in A: A-G-A-B-[C or A]. Also, you're right: a 1:3 ratio is not possible.
3:15 I don't see any parallel fifths in this example..?
He's defining them also as perfect intervals on same beats i.e. if there's a perfect on beat 2, measure 3, then beat 2, measure 4 must also not have a perfect interval.
At 7.43 you say Bb but it is alto clef, so it is C
The major 7th lip was my favourite part :(
where?
3:42 - These are skips, not leaps.