I work in corrosion engineering. We mostly deal with galvanized steel in soil. You won't find much rust on a properly installed bolt in good rock. There's not enough oxygen and no galvanic couple to drive corrosion.
Works if you just bend them, release the tension and have a go again. It kills their fatigue limit and makes for a wonky shape tho. This is also the reason I put very little value in biner chain tests to destruction. Still fun tho.
That was a super smooth edit between Ryan in WA and Bobby in CA working on the same project. Well done gentlemen, glad to see the channel is thriving even over geographic distances between the hosts.
Part of me felt bad at the start for a moment but then my mind calmed down, "surely Bobby will replace them with much better ones". Thank you, not only did we get some nice tests but I'm sure the local climbers will appreciate not having to look at rusty bolts when clipping. Have to say I'm a bit surprised they all were super good enough despite few of the bolts looking totally rusted. On a side note seeing all the carabiner carnage reminded me of something I've never found any satisfactory answer on, how much force does the carabiner actually absorb when it breaks in a sudden fall. Eg. if you have two carabiners say 30cm apart and drop 25Kn on the first and it breaks, which should in my mind take some of the energy away, how much force would the second carabiner be subjected to. I'd assume material plays a huge difference since aluminum tends to just crack and break where steel deforms, but steel carabiners are already so bonkers strong and heavy for climbing purposes that it doesn't really matter. E: After bunch more digging the answer is most likely negligible since it takes about 1.56 microseconds for the force to reach from one side of the carabiner to the other and blow it apart.
A heavy question that requires a heavy answer. Energy is force times distance. Meaning how much did the carabiner deform (elastically and plastically) before breaking times the force experienced during that travel. So assuming something like 15mm (I feel generous) of travel during elastic and deforming * those 22kn and multiplying by a less than known elastic to yield to break of lets say 0.65 (I feel generous) gives me a value of 200 Joules. Or the energy obtained by a man falling from a height of ... 0.3m (1 foot). It's not nothing, but not much. As a side-note, this would imply that any setup no matter the stiffness will not break a 22kn tested biner in one go if dropping a 75kg weight from 0.3m. This is only valid as long as my generousness is not overly generous.
Round slings “endless loops” are something I use everyday I’m a heavy wrecker operator. Y’all should look into using rim slings that’s the company name also the smaller lighter and stronger. Just be easier to carry and rig with than a round sling.
Nice. I have a test suggestion, cyclical loading aged bolts with real world fall forces like 4kn, just repeated 4kn drops, when will it or the rock fail.
@HowNOT2 Awesome! I've been trying to think of a practical way to test weathering including temperature changes too, but can't think of a practical way to recommend to you.
@@mastershake42019 Not necessarily, but since carabiners usually deform before failing, work hardening might add resistance to deformation which could lead to higher strength. That said, it is just a theory.
It could also be the new geometry, since it was stretched along the axis of pull, so the new shape was all the more form along/supporting that particular direction of strain.
Sick video! That was pretty crazy that the caribiner that was already loaded broke at 30kn. So I guess I need to start loading my gear before I climb😂.
The "use the gear X as a proxy for a dynamometer" is pretty smart. In the lab find a gear that returns consistent breaking point levels and it is vastly cheaper than dynamometers, then proceed to use that gear as proxy.
hey, little recommendation as electrical-tape substitution. i use slices of bicycle tire tubes for something like this(rubber fastener on quickdraws, orientation setting (if there were more than 1 carabiner on a bolt) and so on). its my version cheap and reusable :D
Have you guys done star drives in sandstone? I would love to know how sketch that bolt on the off width pitch of the north chimney of Castleton tower is.
Super awesome test! Always wanted to know about those old button bolts in little cottonwood canyon Utah. Meow I'm not as worried; still kind of wish they were rebuilded. ❤ Thank you very much for this awesome test Bobby, friend and Ryan!
It measures the deformation in the aluminum. When it stretches it changes the voltage of the electrical current going through it and interprets the difference and it's calibrated to know what each .000000X volt means in kN.
@@FBWJX Ah, that's possible I suppose, but it would be an amazing coincidence to get such a plausible number that way. Also, I think that would give a negative number since impacting the ground would compress rather than stretch it.
Strictly speaking, dynamic gear does xfer the fall force to climber and belayer/anchor but over a longer time span that static materials which move energy over abrupt time frames. (ok, dis on) .
The "compromise" might have work hardened the carabiner which left it in a more favorable shape and bumping it's metallurgical yield strength, thus you could obtain a slightly higher value on a second try. It can happen, and no carabiners should not be work hardened from now on as that simply destroys it's fatigue limit by introducing the less than "mythical" aluminum microcracks. Nice tests, gg up.
Great testing regime! I'm wondering about crevice corrosion in stainless bolt installations. The hangers are 316L exposed to the atmosphere, so they are always going to be ok. But what about the bolts that are not Titanium, buried in rock and possibly even epoxy in chemical anchor applications? Crevice corrosion has led to sudden failures in my yachting and construction experience. Your thoughts? Thanks for your awesomeness in doing all this Superstonenough science for us [Helps me sleep more soundly].
I always thought load bearing equipment was supposed to be designed with safety factors built in? So its actual peak load would be some factor above (5:1) whatever is written on it?
That is correct in a more industrial or commercial context but not in recreational rock climbing. Minimum Breaking Strength or something similar is used.
@@HowNOT2 Thanks brother.🍺🍺🙏 I believe they were. The conservation authority and the local climbers association re-bolted them in 2017. I think they should be solid for some years to come.
How about testing some bolts in wet potholes and let us know how they fare. We use fixed bolts of unknown age and condition all the time and I would be interested to see a few tested!
You guy's rock...... hang on, sorry..... you guy's...... ....... ....... why does my mind keep going to "rock"?!?!? You're awesome!! There we go, for some reason I just couldn't find any other word for literally several minutes!! 😳😳😳😳😂😂😂😂 Thanks for the new bolts and convincing me never to trust a hammer in type! 😂
Bobby has his own channel and has more stuff like this. Go subscribe to him at www.youtube.com/@bobbyhutton1989
I work in corrosion engineering. We mostly deal with galvanized steel in soil. You won't find much rust on a properly installed bolt in good rock. There's not enough oxygen and no galvanic couple to drive corrosion.
The lesson I'm going to take away from this is that I should shock load my carabiners to 20KN to make them even STRONGER! Great video as always.
That's what I learned!
Works if you just bend them, release the tension and have a go again. It kills their fatigue limit and makes for a wonky shape tho.
This is also the reason I put very little value in biner chain tests to destruction. Still fun tho.
"Break in your carabiners to ensure they're at full strength" seems like the sort of thing that could become a myth.
That was a super smooth edit between Ryan in WA and Bobby in CA working on the same project. Well done gentlemen, glad to see the channel is thriving even over geographic distances between the hosts.
Part of me felt bad at the start for a moment but then my mind calmed down, "surely Bobby will replace them with much better ones". Thank you, not only did we get some nice tests but I'm sure the local climbers will appreciate not having to look at rusty bolts when clipping. Have to say I'm a bit surprised they all were super good enough despite few of the bolts looking totally rusted.
On a side note seeing all the carabiner carnage reminded me of something I've never found any satisfactory answer on, how much force does the carabiner actually absorb when it breaks in a sudden fall. Eg. if you have two carabiners say 30cm apart and drop 25Kn on the first and it breaks, which should in my mind take some of the energy away, how much force would the second carabiner be subjected to. I'd assume material plays a huge difference since aluminum tends to just crack and break where steel deforms, but steel carabiners are already so bonkers strong and heavy for climbing purposes that it doesn't really matter.
E: After bunch more digging the answer is most likely negligible since it takes about 1.56 microseconds for the force to reach from one side of the carabiner to the other and blow it apart.
A heavy question that requires a heavy answer.
Energy is force times distance. Meaning how much did the carabiner deform (elastically and plastically) before breaking times the force experienced during that travel. So assuming something like 15mm (I feel generous) of travel during elastic and deforming * those 22kn and multiplying by a less than known elastic to yield to break of lets say 0.65 (I feel generous) gives me a value of 200 Joules.
Or the energy obtained by a man falling from a height of ... 0.3m (1 foot). It's not nothing, but not much.
As a side-note, this would imply that any setup no matter the stiffness will not break a 22kn tested biner in one go if dropping a 75kg weight from 0.3m.
This is only valid as long as my generousness is not overly generous.
This was a great idea Bobby and delivered a great video. Thanks for all the hard work that went on behind the scenes for a 9 minute video!
Round slings “endless loops” are something I use everyday I’m a heavy wrecker operator. Y’all should look into using rim slings that’s the company name also the smaller lighter and stronger. Just be easier to carry and rig with than a round sling.
Nice.
I have a test suggestion, cyclical loading aged bolts with real world fall forces like 4kn, just repeated 4kn drops, when will it or the rock fail.
I’d like to see that too
That's not out of the range of possibilities next year I think.
@HowNOT2 Awesome! I've been trying to think of a practical way to test weathering including temperature changes too, but can't think of a practical way to recommend to you.
Cool to see a route tested like this.
I wonder if the compromised carabiner had a higher peak force due to being work hardened from the first drop?
Google "strain hardening in 6060 aluminum"
They have found carabiners when repeatedly loaded break at a higher load
Hardened metal doesn't necessarily means it has a higher MBP.
@@mastershake42019 Not necessarily, but since carabiners usually deform before failing, work hardening might add resistance to deformation which could lead to higher strength. That said, it is just a theory.
It could also be the new geometry, since it was stretched along the axis of pull, so the new shape was all the more form along/supporting that particular direction of strain.
Sick video! That was pretty crazy that the caribiner that was already loaded broke at 30kn. So I guess I need to start loading my gear before I climb😂.
Fantastic test thank you so much for sharing! Bobby, I'm so glad you finally got to conduct the test you wanted to when this all started! 🤩
Bobbi, love it!
Ryan, love what you’ve created.
Precious data! Very interesting to look at. Thanks Bobby, thanks Ryan!
SO cool to see Bobby do more vids. Doing great!
4:11 what's the drill powerd litter you are using????
Hi guys, Dan Merrick (DAMMERR) here. Great tests, thank you so much for doing these.
Thanks Dan! Glad you found value in the video. I am putting a lot of mileage on my Dammerr and loving it. -Bobby
The "use the gear X as a proxy for a dynamometer" is pretty smart. In the lab find a gear that returns consistent breaking point levels and it is vastly cheaper than dynamometers, then proceed to use that gear as proxy.
Good job Bobby. Keep up the good work.
Thank you Bobby for all the hard work. Also yes Ryan, make the all natural drop tower video!
Keep Doing all the things to help keep us all safe enough.
Great job gentlemen, thank you for another insightful and fun video.
Thanks for this. Great demo and collab
Thank you for another great video guys!
hey, little recommendation as electrical-tape substitution. i use slices of bicycle tire tubes for something like this(rubber fastener on quickdraws, orientation setting (if there were more than 1 carabiner on a bolt) and so on). its my version cheap and reusable :D
What rope puller are you using at 4:10?
Bravo guys 👏 great content!
Bobby did a fantastic job!
Have you guys done star drives in sandstone? I would love to know how sketch that bolt on the off width pitch of the north chimney of Castleton tower is.
Super cool exciting episode!
Thanks for letting us bounce ideas off you.
"you never know what's going on inside the hole."
Brilliant. Great idea and execution for a video. Well done.
thank you for your the work you invest to show us what it is about
what kind of equipment we see at 4:10?
Oh that's an exciting tease. I hope to share that in the next month. It's 1/3rd the price of anything else like it.
Thank you for your good information~
One of your best episodes
With the titanium bolts, what do they do about the fatigue limit? How is that managed?
Super boulot vous faites toute l' équipe! Hello to French instructor to alpinism!!
Great stuff! What's that tool for removing the old bolts? 8:30
Google: "Doodad 4.0 Mountain Project" , a DIY bolt puller.
Up here in Maine you can support Clifton Climbers Alliance and other Local Climbing Organizations to help us keep climbing routes safe!
Wait why in the 2nd test is the carabiner failing? It's getting more than 20KN from just a 165lb load falling? What am I missing.
Super awesome test!
Always wanted to know about those old button bolts in little cottonwood canyon Utah.
Meow I'm not as worried; still kind of wish they were rebuilded.
❤
Thank you very much for this awesome test Bobby, friend and Ryan!
Brilliant guys
I do want to see the natural drop tower !!!
I have no idea how line scale works but is it possible that it registered the force of the fall as peak?
What do you mean by "the force of the fall"?
It measures the deformation in the aluminum. When it stretches it changes the voltage of the electrical current going through it and interprets the difference and it's calibrated to know what each .000000X volt means in kN.
@@thomasdalton1508 The line scale hitting the ground and registering the force of itself hitting the ground as the 27kn it saved
@@HowNOT2 gotcha, so not likely haha
@@FBWJX Ah, that's possible I suppose, but it would be an amazing coincidence to get such a plausible number that way. Also, I think that would give a negative number since impacting the ground would compress rather than stretch it.
Spent a lotta time climbing on VERY old buttonheads- they look sketchier than they actually are.
big difference between a 1/4" button head and a 5/16" button head!
Strictly speaking, dynamic gear does xfer the fall force to climber and belayer/anchor but over a longer time span that static materials which move energy over abrupt time frames. (ok, dis on) .
would you test magnets for climbing like for climbing on briges or metal surfaces ?
Where did you buy the drill powered winch? Seen the same one a while ago but never found a supplier?
Interesting video aswell 👍
Working on getting them available here. 1/3 the price of a Ronin
That would be awesome! Really cool bit of kit!
The "compromise" might have work hardened the carabiner which left it in a more favorable shape and bumping it's metallurgical yield strength, thus you could obtain a slightly higher value on a second try. It can happen, and no carabiners should not be work hardened from now on as that simply destroys it's fatigue limit by introducing the less than "mythical" aluminum microcracks.
Nice tests, gg up.
As a side note/project, could you guys make a video about replacing bolts? even if it's a short, but the tools Bobby was using looked preety cool
They have
Is it possible that the first elongated carabiner was work hardened when it deformed and that's why it got a higher force?
Not sure how strong the snap shackles are ?
"for science" 2 seconds in:"I don't know how much this weighs"
Great testing regime! I'm wondering about crevice corrosion in stainless bolt installations. The hangers are 316L exposed to the atmosphere, so they are always going to be ok. But what about the bolts that are not Titanium, buried in rock and possibly even epoxy in chemical anchor applications? Crevice corrosion has led to sudden failures in my yachting and construction experience. Your thoughts? Thanks for your awesomeness in doing all this Superstonenough science for us [Helps me sleep more soundly].
Horsepower is, by definition, an amount of work performed. A higher horsepower can simply do more work. If not handicapped with traction or gearing.
I always thought load bearing equipment was supposed to be designed with safety factors built in? So its actual peak load would be some factor above (5:1) whatever is written on it?
That is correct in a more industrial or commercial context but not in recreational rock climbing. Minimum Breaking Strength or something similar is used.
Show the drop tower!
im guessing, you guys were running this just cause you were going to replace those hangers anyway?? So yeah double tasking XD
Yeah they say they replaced all the damaged bolts. Hopefully they also replaced the other 30 year old rusted bolts on the route or nearby routes too.
maybe a cruel one but it'd be nice to know the force a good tree anchor can take. thanks!
Tell us about the All Natural Drop Tower™
All the bolts in my climbing areas are glue ins. Are the super good enough?🤔
If they were installed properly.
@@HowNOT2 Thanks brother.🍺🍺🙏 I believe they were. The conservation authority and the local climbers association re-bolted them in 2017. I think they should be solid for some years to come.
How about testing some bolts in wet potholes and let us know how they fare. We use fixed bolts of unknown age and condition all the time and I would be interested to see a few tested!
You guy's rock...... hang on, sorry..... you guy's...... ....... ....... why does my mind keep going to "rock"?!?!? You're awesome!! There we go, for some reason I just couldn't find any other word for literally several minutes!! 😳😳😳😳😂😂😂😂 Thanks for the new bolts and convincing me never to trust a hammer in type! 😂
Your videos are sick. Please do one about the Angel AC Cam by alternative current. it looks pretty nifty.
Do a collab with smarter every day. Would love to see this in supper slow mo
Anyone know where these guys are located?
West Coast! California and Washington I believe
This video helped ease my fear of gear failing until you mentioned the bolts pulling out 😂
I would like to see a video on how you did your all natural drop test!
did those logs weight like 1000kg or something?
So can you break bolts with weights on a climbing rope? 😮
I aSSume you replaced the anchors after this so nobody clipped into them after this test?
Well I can't assume you watched the video.
OMG, chimbers are now bolting trees too! (Sorry, I could not resist :)
Thanks for another interesting video!
It's all natural :). I researched zipline and tree house systems to make sure I'm not damaging the tree.
@@HowNOT2ok now I want a video on zip line and tree house systems
Would LOVE to learn more about the tree drop tower and the "tree Bolt" you used Ryan!
Guga Foods has experiments sitting in his fridges for years. Perhaps do biner and harness loop test for avid gym climber durability
Pulled some drive-ins with channel locks and others were insanely bomber. It’s a crap shoot.
No a big safety factor then in the cheap ones
ANDP - I'm curious!
Tests like this should be done regularly.
Why? So you increase the load cycle of the equipment and cause a failure?
@@Chevron.Muskoka Just test it once in a year or so.
"Please break it"
!!
NOT LIKE THAT!
Excellent field testing, but as you mentioned, there are too many variables to draw reliable conclusions. Good step in the right direction though.
Yalls willingness to be right next to a failing carabiner that could whip you in the face at any second is beyond me.
Patiently waiting on the CT Rollnlock video, as well as hopefully other non-tooth progress capture
Droptests give a higher force because breaking takes time. Nothing is instant.