Why are these so popular???
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- 5 Piece Powers bolts are popular among climbers. We talk about the pros and cons with 40 tests to back it up. All of that data will be found in the book of numbers of the bolting bible. www.hownot2.co...
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What is the highest kilo newton result you've ever measured for any part of a climbing protection system?
The 8mm twist bolts from the recent recent.
for the algorithm gods... got to the end of 40 brake tests ;)
and as Ryan suggested, you shall have your upvote ☺️
I'm never going to go rock climbing and I watched to the end.
Maybe discussion between us is better for the Algo... maybe
I still don't know why I watch the whole thing. I don't go rock climbing.
@@AlexDresko just start!!
Finger tight + degrees of rotation may actually be a better spec for a bolting procedure. A lot of variables can impact required torque to induce a compressove load. A torque spec can have a deviation of +-25 to 35% in actual clamping force.
A lot of programable assembly tools i have tested (ingersol-rand qx series for example) offer programming options to counter act this like: tighten to said very low i.e. torque, then continue a set degree of rotation
love this channel
Made it ! Loved it
When discussing forces: how does a continuous amplifying force (like they use in their tests) relate to an instant force (like a weight snapping at the end of a rope)?
They have many other videos, and many with their "drop tower", testing exactly that. You should definitely check those out.
You guys ROCK!
(Pun intended)
Hope my rope doesn't snap
I’ve put hundreds of expanding sleeve bolts in for construction purposes, very cool to see how they interact with the rock or concrete. Thanks for putting in the effort
same, a bunch used for floor anchoring for guardrail and machine lockdown. I'm just a mechanic, so I only use em when the bosses put something new on the floor, but that's still a hundred or so every year.
Watched to the end and loved every minute of it! Thanks for all the work on this stuff guys!
Don't think I'll ever bolt anything, but it sure helps me evaluate the routes I'm climbing from a safety perspective 😊
Great video. Thank you for bringing up proper spacing of any expansion type Bolt. I'm a structural designer for many types of buildings and one of the biggest mistakes that we see is not spacing expansion bolts properly. With a 2 3/4" Hilti kwik bolt I always make sure to space them at least 6" apart. 8 would be better. and no closer to the edge of a concrete slab than 3"
Just to add my $.02, bolt spacing is important for ALL types of anchors, not just expansion type bolts. Adhesive / glue-in anchors also require sufficient spacing as the concrete or rock can still fail in a cone shape and influence the other anchors nearby if they're not far enough apart. Expansion bolts are more sensitive to edge distance than adhesives because they apply outward pressure when torqued.
It's easy to explain why, too..... just shift fields a bit. Stone masons. How does one break a slab of even the hardest stone? You drill a line of holes and start driving wedges or pins in, and eventually the cracks generated by that force combine along the line and it just pops in half.
How are too-closely spaced anchors any different from a mason's wedges?
@@mtbfreeWas just about to say the same exact same thing. And it's universal for all types of materials too, be it wood, concrete, masonry, steel etc.
I tune in to see what Bobby's hair is doing today
I started climbing in Yosemite in the early 70s. The bolts we didn't hesitate to clip into with hardly a thought would rightfully appall you. Me too, looking back and after watching you guys the last few years.
The trick is to just not fall...
As someone who doesn't, and won't, climb I'm always so amused that I enjoy these videos anyway.
Agreed, 👍
Thank You for providing such good info on your videos.
I've been a climber for 57 years and am quite informed on climbing safety and gear. I still learn new things from your videos!
I really liked your video on BEER KNOTS. I've used the beer knot for over 40 years and knew they were stronger than water knot. Never tested it myself like you did.
A lot of people that I climbed with didn't think it was that strong but now they are using it after you tested it.
Thank you for that!
The first best knot for tied runners (our only long slings) that I learned in the valley as a dumb kid. Beer knot for the win, Walt Shipley taught and approved. Cheers.
@@brianwarshow129 Yep. I started using the beer knot in the late 70s early 80s. Before that I tied my slings with the grapevine/double fisherman knot.
I really like the beer knot because there is no tails!
Thanks HowNot2 for the heart! If you ever were on SuperTopo or mountain project my screen name was Cosmicccragsman.
@@dwainwarren2952 Exactly, no tails. It worked and is elegant. A groovy knot, for sure.
As a meatball railing installer and general screwup repair guy, I drill into concrete frequently when anchor bolts fail. I put a few strands of 12# insulated copper wire, and then drive in a stainless steel screw carefully until the fastener goes home. Don’t tell anyone
mfw I need a doctorate in petrology to recklessly risk my life dangling on a string in the middle of nowhere.
Taking out a 5 piece- remove 1 st sleeve by using a 3/8 threader to thread the sleeve ( not easy )n then use longer bolt to attach to a small dent puller and remove. Repeat process for next sleeve then repeat again with cone. I have removed hundred of these in utah…. Dry climate.
All you data is awesome , I always hated the short ones for cost savings. Problem is boys 20 years ago no other way to bolt a cave .
I have an issue with the stainless and rocks with salt in them ….. the 304 is not very good ……
Stainless wedges in a roof suck , stainless wedges must have thread locker or the nuts comes off.
I quit bolting because everyone is a hater more than a helper.
The break tests were fascinating -all 40 of them! And that visual of the way the force is distributed through the rock was also excellent.
Watched all the way through and something reminded me of a time we were climbing granite and I got to a bolt about halfway up the route and had to have a break...... an what looked like a fairly typical rock face...... MOVED!!! The worst bit was that it was a relatively small area, about 18 inches across from what I remember. When I looked closer, there was a pretty faint line all the way round the edge of the piece that was moving, and it was a slightly different colour. On my way back down, I started seeing noticing these lines hiding all over the face of the route and unless you knew what to look for you just didn't see them. So we weren't just going to leave this death trap waiting to happen, we marked the route as not safe and decided to come back the following weekend with tools...... lots of tools as we had no idea how to get this bolt out (We did bring a glue in bolt, drills, etc from a work colleague who put up routes all the time). I actually started out around the edge of the area with a couple of pry bars and it took a grand total of about 15 minutes and the whole thing disappeared off the crag!!!! Definitely not expecting that!!! What was left in the hole was loads more of that lighter coloured rock..... a LOT of it and it was pretty crumbly. Just after that, we were back on the ground with a LOT of adrenaline coursing through us and definitely not wanting to be on that crag again. We did manage to collect enough of the rock to take to our colleague to have a look at. The end of the story was that he went to do some work on the route with his friends who do loads of bolting and after an assessment of the hole that we had left and the whole of the rest of that secting of crag, they basically spent a week removing every single bolt on the crag! They also found some similar AND worse (drilled straight into a softer seam...... how didn't the notice that the drill tool no time to drill the hole, compared to the rest?!?!?) examples of what we had found. To be honest, the rock face had plenty of natural places to put protecting so it never needed to be bolted in the first place. The crag is now designated bolt free and open again..... or at least if was 20 years ago last time I climbed. They basically bolted a crag just because they wanted to bolt a crag, not because the crag needed to be bolted in the first place! Not good and in this case, they could have got someone killed 🥺
I've followed the channel for a while now and have to say that you are going an excellent work with these videos! Even for a Finnish person you're not coming across as over confident. I love the way you're explaining your setups and caveats with the testing
watched to the end, commenting to prove engagement
I worked as a cave and canyon guide and there was nothing guides liked better than rigging up a load cell and a Tirfor or pneumatic ram and start testing anchors. When I was exploring a new cave or canyon I'd usually use a self drilling Terrier bolt. These are hammered in and can be pulled fairly easily leaving a hole you can over drill for a more permanent anchor later if required. For commercial trips we usually used glue in (ceramic epoxy) stainless steel anchors.
💯👏🏽
40 interesting break tests ...
i dont climb, i will never climb, i have no idea whats going on here, but scientific testing is cool and things are getting broken so its dope
This is why I love the internet. The depth you chaps go to is commendable!
I realise this is probably very complicated to do, especially with all of the store prep right now. But it would be really cool if you could have machines that cyclically load gear. Just running in the background with a basic security camera-type recording to see when and how they fail to see how well they did. Could make a cool backdrop. Sometimes I look at these tests and wonder how representative they really are. Something that had a high breaking tension could conceivably do badly with cyclical loads as you alluded to in the vid. Maybe that is what fixe gave up on testing.
Whoop. End of the video. LOL, God I have no life!
Thanks for putting in the work, you finally suckered my wallet into Patreon
Awesome video as usual guys!!! I'm not replacing bolts on routes (yet...I'm thinking this will be my full retirement from climbing give-back-contribution-gig), but I occasionally climb on them. Thank you so much!
ty so much for the visual with the bolt in the rock that you were holding around 18:50 SUPER helpful and REALY cool visual im really grateful you help on to that for us
We've been successful removing 5 piece bolts with a 9mm tap to thread the 3/8 sleeve about 5 threads. Then you can pull the sleeve with your favorite puller with a 9mm adapter.
How rusty can they be before they don't work? It sounds like a good idea for the ones i replaced which still had the sleeve mostly in tact.
@@HowNOT2 We've pulled out bolts from the 70s in Oklahoma and Texas with this. The biggest trick is to get it to break loose from the rock. After tapping, retread the bolt into the cone and smack it down. Then thread the puller and wiggle the sleeve out.
Sure, made it clear through the video and I have never even used any form of climbing equipment because I am not a climber. Its just interesting content to me and I love to watch people who care so much about what they do. Thanks for another great one!
that test piece with conic rock - that is just priceless artifact🎉
Made it to the end. I'm never going to rock climb. Just like the videos. And s little tree climbing
I made it all the way! 🎉 nice tight edit to keep that a reasonable length, Ryan
Bolt on my friends!
I will ;)
I got to the end of the video, I always do lol I love these videos
8:39 i use these bolts as tie down points in concrete... like what they are made for. Using products outside of the companys parameters then getting mad when it doesnt work for your scenario is weird
Yeah and for every 1 bolt sold for climbing I bet a minimum of 10,000 are sold for it's intended purpose. Climbing is a tiny hobby, it's wrong to assume that everyone is willing to sink millions into testing and liability insurance just to cater to it.
I don't know what you mean, that video was entertaining until the very end^^
I don't even climb and i watched to the end. you guys do 2 of my favorite things, break stuff and collect data and i am here for it.
I would imagine that originally they were 5 pieces, with just the top and bottom sleeves, cone, washer, and main bolt perhaps (just a guess), but then the extra parts were added to improve reliability or some other quality of the product?
This video must've been so expensive to make, thanks ryan and bobby!
It was either oddly engaging, or im just a sucker for pain....😅
Defeating gear fear 40 bolts at a time! I really need to get my ass to the bouldering wall!
I think you should try to get Greg Barnes on the show. He can talk about the ASCA and what it does, but also it would be interesting to hear you guys discuss what hardware people should probably be using in different areas. I know he's not very fond of concrete screws for example.
20:28 I think the twisted glue in P is the best option for most cases?
Emails? I get hundreds of emails a day in my private boxes. Then… I get hundreds more every day in my work boxes. I haven’t been clicking. 😞 Anyway… I hope the winner enjoys that piece or art. That thing is AWESOME.
patrons are included too automatically fyi
Nice issue to cover, very informative. Great work and nice editing too. As a former GC and climber, it comes to mind that in wet, anoxic conditions, many types SS will corrode fairly quickly. I wonder if the method of using epoxies is still a better option, maybe even a mixed mode of expanding anchors with epoxy. As for the "unscrewing" issue, a drop of thread locker should fix that issue.
I clicked yours!
In for a penny, in for 20:36. My first "modern" bolting jobs (after the long-ago 1-1/4" long by 1/4" Rawl split shank hand-drilled jobs with those beautiful razor-thin hangers) were five-piece, but now I'm mostly using stainless 3-3/4"L x 3/8"d wedge bolts with exterior threads. I'd love to see side-by-side comparisons of the two types, the five-piece and the wedgies...
BEST Video! Fast moving, lots of info, and, as usual, very entertaining!!! Thanks guys!
The original short 3/8 bolt was exactly 5 pieces excluding the washer. I still have a couple Rawl plated ones. The 1/2" ones remove relatively easily. I have removed hundreds, placed hundreds also. They would not sell commercially if they were that difficult to place. You guys are a bit jaded because every thing is so strong. Anything above 25 KN in tension is gravy. it would be good to seek the 25 KN if placed in a roof. Like what you guys do. keep it up.
I signed up (and subed) out of interest and to help you guys out! :) I actually used to instruct rock climbing in Alberta (many years ago) but I am to old and crippled ot climb now. We used to put bots in with a 2 pound hammer and a Start Drill :)
I also have installed countless thousands of anchours in concrete floors walls and ceilings :) as part of my job(s) ... Stainless Steel Anchours are VERY rare, I'd estimate under 1/2% ..
The only time we used them in construction is AFTER zinc plated ones failed outdoors (in an unacceptably short time) , or in caustic environments, like if they were to be exposed to acid or sea water
Interesting. I just installed a couple hundred zinc plated expansion bolts in an exterior application. But, they were 5/8” x10, I’m still confident in the install lasting my lifetime, and stainless would have been heart stoppingly expensive.
19:45 .. What about Epoxy "Chemical" ancours?? I realize the curing time would make them awkward in an actual climb, But if it's a rock you climb often (like in instructing) cure time would not be impotent.
Nope. Ill just go be safe on my kx250 and continue some nice safe triples and 70ft skyshots that buckle my ankle and break grade 14 Ti peg bolts.
So much safer then that nonsense.
So long story short, the bolts are super good enough even if you install them wrong but they are hard to replace.
I work on cars alot and knowing how I torque things that would be overtightened basically everything on my car is ~30ftlbs minimum if I tried to do 18ftlbs I would probably freak out from how loose it feels.
Regarding the granite that failed with the rock in tension, looks like a bit of weathering. Geologist here, not climber.
I heard climber hammer out the rock prior to bolting. That makes sense.
However, all exposed rock will the somewhat weathered, except for fresh rockfall, and even then there probably were some factures previously, with associated weathering.
I love your videos but I really think you should at least mention the SI units as well as the US imperial units to make it understanable to those of us NOT in the US. I really cannot relate your discussion to my world. You happily use kilonewtons which is an SI unit (1000 kg⋅m/s²) but then equate everything else to US only units. Please consider adding the standard SI units even if you only add them as text on the video
honestly, I thought stainless steel glue ins were the unicorn. Is the main problem that they are difficult to replace? I could envision a specialty holesaw bit that could be used for replacements, though I haven't lived long enough to have a need. Cut the bolt flush and holesaw it out, and reuse the hole again, once every 100+ years... no?
I've never installed a bolt, hell I've never clipped into a bolt, I just watched 40 bolt break tests, don't ask why
Didn't watch the whole video cause my climbing partner is waiting for me, I will finish later! Commenting for the algorithm.
Made it! Good info as always guys.
Love picking up little bits of info I can crossover to different things like hiking, camping and 4 wheeling. Thanks for sharing and all that goes into everything.
I found my way on the rock climbing side of youtube, it seems. But what is going on with the guy in the hat? His hands look abnormally large. Does that give him a natural advantage in climbing??
I love this channel. Excellent quality videos and I can tell you care about what you do. I just statred indoor climbing and I look forward to getting out and using some of the knowledge I've gained here. Still a ton of gear fear but I'm working on it. Much love from northern ontario 🤟
Made to the end. Regret nothing. ❤
It'd be cool if I could donate $5-$10 a month to just help people make and maintain good routes. I have a lot of appreciation for people who maintain public routes at their own expense.
When installing wedge or sleeve anchors I ALWAYS drill through slab or at least double the length of anchor because there is no successful uninstall and when your hole is deep enough you can beat it through and have room for a new anchor and if the sleeve fails you must use wedge because in my experience if a sleeve fails a sleeve will NEVER work in that hole I have never had a wedge fail.
I am one of the industrial users, can confirm, we don’t read the packaging either. Have had to replace plenty of zinc plated concrete anchors. Blown holes are the worst, occasionally get lucky using a larger anchor, but usually have to make a steel plate that the item bolts to, then has at least the depth of the hole x2 away new anchor spots.
you guys are amazing. I follow your bolting advice like the "Gospels"
So, i dont know how expensive the glue used for glue ins is as a non climber but have you tested expansion bolts with glue backup?
Luckily I don't clip into any bolts while climbing trees.
The cone shaped of the pulled out bolt is impacted by your testing apparatus pressing down on the rock around it. You can see how the legs are holding down parts of the fractures in the clips. The cone is definitely bigger but it’s hard to tell how much the pulling rig is supporting the rock around the bolts in some of those tests
Test using anchor setting epoxy you can achieve some crazy strength but curious to see just how strong compared to traditional type anchors.
The post of your brace is creating stress risers and leading to a lower failure force on your rocks. You can tell because the breaks go up to or very close to the stand legs.
You should follow up with your local geologist. Someone who studies or teaches petrography or mineralogy.
I watched it till the end, now I see bolts everywhere... was this a ritual to summon the bolt-demons and are the going to haunt me forever now? 😵
I'm not even a rock climber but I made it to the end of this video since I find structural failures so god damn interesting haha (I'm not an engineer either!)
sry but one thing made me cringe, you measure the torque in ft-lbs and not nm, but you still measure the force you apply in kn would make more sense to just use metric system or just imperial for a data test like this
For removing bolts maybe an idea is to drill it out? Can't you use a drill bit 1mm bigger and remove everything and install a bigger bolt?
I would think the climbing anchors should be date plated somehow if left in place.
The rocks failing because there's a much higher shear load at the bottom with the shorter bolt than the long one... Long bolts in soft material give the bolt a lot longer moment arm to resist the loading developed either resisting shear or resisting the moment because of the uneven loading due to the shape of the load bearing ring.
Have they tested drilling a new hole for a bolt near an old hole that is empty. Is there a preferred distance from a empty hole?
not a climber but I use anchors in construction all the time, other than cure time how does epoxy anchors work.
0:24 I remember 3 piece petzl bolts, I guess that's why these are 5 piece bolts
I need a thumbs up. Please!?!?
How come you don't just take a torque wrench with you? same same no?
So much raw data! What kind of wierdo wouldn't watch the whole thing?
Wanted to subscribe to the newsletter, but it wasn't working on the website.
It s always good to be longer and thicker. So my wife tells me.
Nothing needs to last longer than me. I use potasium bolts
Someone in the know, please spill the tea on extreme gear schism.
1Kn is equal to how many Kilograms in weight Thx
just bend some reid bar glue the bar into the wall modern glue is rather good
Yea I made it through the video . . . Thanks again boys
Made it through all 40 AND the end! You do great work, and I’m here for it! 😉👍🏼💪🏼
The unicorn bolt is the one used in cliff hanger. How about a review on that 😂
Great video. Thanks guys.
I'd like to rebolte some things around belle island