Whay a survey. Clicking the "yes, I am a Super Mario expert!" checkbox then immediately being faced with a dozen arcade games I'd never heard of was a very humbling experience, I must say.
I do know of a lot of those games but felt very uncomfortable clicking the "expert" box. It just goes to show, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.
@kruks I fell into an extremely ironic trap: I didn't consider that being aware *of* the Dunning Kruger Effect would not necessarily protect me *from* the Dunning Kruger Effect
There's a lot of lines here that flashbanged me but i have to shout out "you can't analyze paratext like you analyze text without first jumping on it to remove the wings" as a near-perfect joke
@@yuvalne In Mario games, enemies that are a variant of a different enemy but with wings are called "para" like the Parakoopa. Jumping on them removes the wings, thus turning a Parakoopa into a Koopa.
Agreed, that one legitimately made me pause and lower my head because that was just. so smooth. perfectly executed joke, including just moving on like nothing happened afterwards
8:23 Hey, that's me!! Thanks for mentioning my marathon! Loved your original video and was honored to come to the same conclusion of 18 mainline games. I am shocked to see 2 more hours of this (one hour for every new mainline game since the first video lol). Good stuff!
hahaha I immediately went to the comments when this video popped up on my homepage to see if someone had posted about your marathon, really happy to see it was actually in the video 😅
@@mariotheundying Truthfully they probably just thought It'd be funny to include every game except for exactly one of the "probably mainline" ones and randomly chose 3d world. Nothing against the game itself, just part of the bit. Edit: The way that the submission was described also implied that it was specifically just the original 3d world that was omitted and not 3d world + bowser's fury, which further indicates that the person who submitted that response probably doesn't have anything against 3d world for real.
i really enjoy the idea of classifying clubhouse games: 51 worldwide classics as a mario game specifically under the classification of “mario is playable” because you certainly do play cards with mario on them
My favorite moment in history was when, right after Diogenes proclaimed a plucked bird was a man, Jan Misali came running in behind him holding up I am a Teacher: Super Mario Sweater shouting "BEHOLD, A MAINLINE SUPER MARIO GAME!"
I think another angle worth exploring is 'type of guy who thinks only the good mario games are mainline', and the definition of good is 'I played it and I enjoyed it'
"so you can make a jumper about your favourite jumper" best line written by a human "you wear it and it's soft, so it's software" second best line written by a human
"the reason this is my favorite definition is that it's so meticulously crafted, it accounts for so many edge cases, and it includes I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater" third best line written by a human (I broke into laughter so hard when I heard this line I had to pause the video to calm myself)
I love how youtube classified this video as a video about "I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater" meaning that this is undoubtedly the most super mario game
you can manually choose which game you put there so I assume its a deliberate bit but like, its a good bit and foreshadowing that most people would not notice until it came up.
36:10 I'm sorry but saying every single game is a mainline Super Mario game except Super Mario 3D World is a way better bit than saying every single game is a mainline Super Mario game. Top tier, actually.
It would have been an even better bit if the other two chucklefucks stuck to their 358 bit. Like having 2 guys say all 358 and one guy saying 357 adds in the "okay what the fuck is this your actual opinion?!" Possibility, while having the longest list be 357 makes it nigh certain he's a chucklefuck. Like sure in the former he would *probably* be a chucklefuck but there's a decent chance he's not. In the latter it's all but guaranteed.
I adore the manic energy of jan showing qualitative survey responses of people getting increasingly angry about the questions they're being asked all the while, they just patiently respond with the most calm, hyper-specific way to debunk their thought process
If I'm A Teacher: Super Mario Sweater is not a game in the Super Mario franchise, then why is it the video game that appears in the description of this video?
i think having only a quarter of a percent being jokesters is because the survey was so long that people would have a hard time committing to the bit for that amount of time.
honestly super refreshing to see someone read statistics and actually know what they mean online, far far too often people only take the numbers and ignore any outside factors to draw their conclusions
I love the way you handle data. Going over all the results and explaining what they could mean and how the data may be flawed, yet not completely dismissing it, makes for a much more interesting video than either cutting out any complicated data or including everything without question. Instead of looking for rigid answers you went over what the data would mean based on including or not including the answers from various people based on how they answered.
After hearing Misali Misali for two combined hours, I realize the main strength of their presentational style. In a few words, what makes Misali stand out is this "warm formality." by which I mean, a lot of YTers in this circle/circles are a lot more casual, while Misali is more "scholarly" - upright but not too head-on - the incarnation of "in my humble opinion". Misali uses this professor aura to do added damage when fearlessly stating bold hypotheses or swiftly tossing in the wildest knee-snappers.
when misali said “DIC (dick) Entertainment, pronounced like deek” out loud I had to pause the video and pace around my kitchen laughing, for like 2 minutes. The formality of their work makes the comedic hits stand out tenfold
Although there is an extremely strong and isolated cluster of 19 choices regarding love towards this video forming a distinct and statistically significant island at the top right of this chart, we, for reasons unknowable, believe that no consensus has been reached.
There have been official sources that lists run as mainline but not mario clock. I believe that is a good reason to seperate those two games, so the argument fails(in my opinion). This is regardless only true if we consider run as mainline which it is arguably not as it is not on Nintendo platforms.
I need to watch this entire video again just to compile all the amazing one-liners - so you can make a jumper about your favourite jumper - the 'Super Mario Bros.' movie, or the 'The Super Mario Bros. Movie' movie - There have been so many Warioware Microgames based specifically on the NES game Super Mario Bros. that they collectively add up to well over a hundredth of a milligame - You can’t analyze paratext the same way you analyze text without jumping on it first to remove the wings - At this point, you're probably wondering (or even Super Mario Bros. Wonder-ing)
A friend of mine has a take that is so strange to me that I genuinely didn't even consider it as a possibility. He asserts that with the release of Super Mario 64, a core part of the series identity changed from 2D to 3D, and thus any 2D games released after (such as the New Supers and Wonder) do not count as mainline.
This is how I have intuitively conceived of the mainline Super Mario games as well. I've seen it as a core of flagship console games which, starting with Super Mario 64, changed from a series of linear sidescrolling platformers into a series of 3D collectathons. To me the New Soup games never felt like part of this core series, neither did the 3D World games, which game design wise have more in common with its 2D predecessors than they do with 64. The earlier handhelds also felt to me like a different thing. I'm surprised not many more people have brought up this idea, which until I started watching these videos and reflecting on it just seemed kind of intuitively correct. Perhaps on reflection one can take a broader view of the mainline and instead view the "flagship" games as a sub-series within it, just as one could view, say, the Land, New Soup, 3D World and Maker games as other sub-series.
@@Oenols I would actually argue that 3D World is one of the most "flagship" games. If you look at things like merchandizing and the Universal theme parks, the core Mario aesthetic seems to be heavily based on 3D World these days.
@@swordandpenguin8983 You could be right. I guess my subjective view is shaped by how the big Mario games in my formative years were 64, Sunshine and Galaxy. The New Soup and 3D World games when they came out felt like they were trying to be a different thing. The one that's really confusing me now though is Wonder which obviously isn't a follow-up to Odyssey, but also doesn't slot into any other established sub-series. Anyway I'm not sure if this conception I've distinctly had of the series in my mind is really described by the term "mainline". I certainly haven't consciously applied this word to it (and I guess I wouldn't anyway, since I'm not a native English speaker). I certainly couldn't translate my pre-existing ideas easily into the terms used in the survey, since the relation the New Soups etc. stand in to the "core games" in my mind isn't really adequately covered by the word "spin-off".
Let's go in another direction: Are old-school roguelikes "video games"? They (mostly) use colored ASCII art to render the environment, although modern ones often have an option to use graphical tiles instead. Does that mean that they're "text games" and not video games? If you count LCD screens, it seems difficult to argue that you can't count text as well. But then you've opened the door. Now we come to old-school text adventures, which use text to _describe_ the environment, and you have to visualize it yourself. You also use text to tell the game what you want to do next (typing commands such as GET YE FLASK to pick something up). Are those video games, or is this different because the text is being used as text and not as a means of drawing an image?
@@NYKevin100 I'd say the biggest difference between the two is the intent of the ascii characters. In a text adventure game they are used as words, and oldschool roguelikes use them to represent interactive elements. But honestly i would count both as video games anyway the video part of video games only really defines what you are using to play it not whether it has active animation or not.
based off that sweater section, Misali's next hit video is gonna be "how many video games are there?" based off the results of a 10+ hour, over 1,000 question long google forms survey.
1:35:30 In Super Paper Mario you don't play as Mario, you play as Paper Mario, which is a different character entirely as seen in Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam
Okay, but do we know if we play as the same Mario in *any* of the Mario games? As you said, there has been at least this one instance where there were two separate versions of Mario from two parallel universes, so these are a thing in the Mario franchise. How do we know, which games are even featuring the same incarnation of Mario? Is the Mario RPG Mario the same Mario as the Mario + Luigi Mario? Is Paper Mario with a white border the same character as Paper Mario without the white border? If SMB 3 is a play, is the 'mainline Mario' the character within the play or the actor playing the character? Or both/neither? Is the story of a lot of Mario games so similar because they are the same events playing out slightly differently in different universes??? Idk
@@jclkaytwo there's technically nothing in Paper Jam confirming that the paper world the separate Paper Mario comes from is the same as the world of the Paper Mario series, so yeah Paper Mario just being different art style is a valid interpretation ...almost, if we ignore the many references to the characters themselves being explicitly made of paper especially in Sticker Star onwards...ok how about just Sticker Star onwards is the paper world from Paper Jam
I love the respondent at 1:23:32 who says Super Mario Run doesn’t count because it’s “just made for nintendo to make money”. You know, as opposed to all the other games in the series, which Nintendo did not profit from. I also like to imagine the two people who claimed “mobile games are not real” aren’t saying mobile games don’t count, but rather that they don’t think mobile games exist at all. Super Mario Run is actually an elaborate hoax
The "I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater (NES, 1986)" section immediately made me like and subscribe more than any actual request for me to like and subscribe would have.
Shoutout to my favourite Mario games; Bros, Wario Faces Consequences for his Actions, 7 Grand Dad, the State of Delaware, and of course, I am a Teacher: Super Mario Sweater.
two things: 1. I Am A Teacher: Super Mario Sweater is probably the best gotcha I've ever seen in a video like this and I struggled to not wake up my sleeping child by laughing out loud when I saw it 2. the list of games to play to get the whole context of the super mario games has big "Gamechamp3000 gives a list of required reading for the Kingdom Hearts series" energy
now im curious what ms gamerchamp's list of mainline games is. surely she is based enough to include yoshis island and wario land and stuff right? right???
When presented with the question "What even is canon for Super Mario?" I answer by choosing to disbelief in homophones, and answering "Something that fires a Bullet Bill".
But are those canons? In the Mario Maker games they are called bullet bill blasters not canons. Not to mention bullet bills are based on bullets which typically come out of guns not canons. Canonballs typically come out of canons and that is true in the mario series where canon looking objects fire metal balls which can be assumed to be canonballs. But your definition excludes those canon for some reason.
Because it turns out that the concepts we invent to conceptualise the world don't actually have to line up with reality very well. Like the Ship of Theseus problem: turns out "ship" is just something we made up that has no actual significant meaning when you really look at it closely. Its all just atoms.
Because words are a concept that has no truth behind them, as there is no physical explanation as to what is a book, you can always start redefining what words mean, hence why questions like „what is a super mario game“ are inherently futile
Because the things that *are* real (whatever they are) are so far beneath our ability to perceive them that our entire world is effectively constructed of abstractions. In the game of Go, a very important strategic concept is the "group". Groups appear naturally on the board as stones are placed, and have properties such as "alive" and "dead" that effectively determine who wins the game. And yet if you read the rules of Go, you will find no mention of any of these concepts. They are not "real". Pretty much everything we can perceive is like that.
1:01:27 "'Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story', a game about the story inside of both 'Mario' and 'Luigi: Bowser'" this is the master-class level of bit that I've come to expect from this channel.
this is unfortunately a lot more cut and dry than mario, mostly because sequels are designated as such. i get the idea that the game karate man has multiple incarnations all called karate man (which carries to a few other examples), but i think the only place where it gets difficult is the megamix prequels, all of which i would not classify as separate games. imo this comes down to whether a game has a different title and gameplay from its… wait…samurai slice
When jan Misali is all too happy to outright state “nobody would finish an entire survey of WarioWare micro games”, you and I both understand that’s gotta be the next big thing, right? >But all microgames, by definition, in the text of WarioWare as a whole, are in the WarioWare series. Then how do you explain all the cross-pollination of Rhythm Heaven and WarioWare? Within smaller games inside of a bigger package, no less? >Wario did not make them. 1, God didn’t write the NIV translation of the Bible either, and 2, we have not conclusively disproven Wario did not produce Rhythm Heaven in its canon.
1:23:24 I love how the second response seems to work under the assumption that every single other game in the franchise was created just out of _sheer love for the arts_ and that the developers had *no expectations of getting paid at the end of the day.*
Noted. Cuphead is a Mario game by these standards (Cuphead started as two brother who wanted to make their video game at all costs to the point where they had to pension their house), as are games meant to practice making video games. The amount of video games under the Mario franchise is incomprehensibly vast!
That was something that was bought up in MatPat's video - gorillas have a shorter lifespan than humans. Although at the end of the day, Nintendo doesn't really strive to maintain consistency in Mario games, so I personally wouldn't be surprised if some things were just outright contradictory. They may call back to other games, but they're essentially supposed to stand on their own.
@@logicalfundy There's already plenty of contradictions. Is Cranky Kong DK's grandpa or dad? Is Mario a 2d man in a 2d world, a 3d man in a 3d world, or a 2d man in a 3d world? Is that mushroom thing on Toad's head a hat or part of his head? Is Mario normally as tall as Peach, or is he super short except when he eats a mushroom?
I personally just like the idea that Donkey Kong Country is set in the future of the Mario games, and the Donkey Kong that we see in Mario Kart, Mario Party, and the sports games is actually Cranky. The DK connection is also fun because Diddy Kong Racing implies that Banjo and Kazooie and Conker's Bad Fur Day are part of Mario canon.
That’s the silliest and dorkiest way to check if anyone is still paying attention an hour and a half into this video. It’s also exactly what I think whenever a word has that prefix lol!
I’m surprised the metric of sales never came up even once. It’s an odd metric, sure, but Disney’s official Disney Princesses list uses box office sales of the princess’s movie as one of the factors determining if she is part of the official list. This can rule out most edge cases that the other linguist definitions didn’t think about. If sales is too weird of a metric for you, why not copies made at first release? Of course, neither of these are good on their own, but they can overlap for good use. Ex: a video game (the definition we used earlier, but include that the software is the fun itself) is part of the Super Mario series if it’s a platformer or a platformer game with elements from other genres where Mario is a playable character, its developed by Nintendo, has “Mario” in the title, and the game sold X many copies in its first year.
I wonder if there was a person who snidely classified Sticker Star as “part of the Super Mario series” because they thought it cribbed far too much from the Super Mario series to be called a Paper Mario game.
I want nothing more than a voice clip of the person who submitted "I AM NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT F***ING SWEATERS JAN MISALI" yelling that line for my personal soundboard exclusively populated by people saying things that no-one else has any context for.
So funny that like a month and a half after the video's release, Mario Wonder is STILL not included on the timeline of Nintendo of America's website, even though it almost certainly should be, given its existence is plastered over the site's homepage lol-
you know what, yes, you convinced me. super mario sweater is 100% a mainline mario game i'm down for it. editing this comment at about 1:54:00ish into watching to say that not only is super mario sweater a canon mario game, but by accounts of it being an actual sweater i am knitting it is the ONLY canon mario game as it does happen in real life.
To be fair, the Napoleonic Wars happened in real life but that doesn’t make them cannon to Mario. Now that I’m typing that I now realize that there’s probably some official drawing of Mario dressed as Napoleon from like 1989. Nevermind! What you said makes perfect sense I am just not sober.
@@Stickfigure70 there were Mario quiz cards where one depicted Mario and Luigi in the Civil War against each other where Mario was a Union Solder and Luigi was a Confederate Soldier
Ok but imagine being that one guy who wrote the "We Didn't Start the Fire" parody. Imagine your goof on a survey getting a specific shout out in a video like this. That just seems so fun.
@@letsplaytodayusa the full version is on the channel. it was a spinoff video in the "how many Super Mario games are there?" series, but not a mainline entry.
As someone who partook in that survey, you stating "instead of 54, I gave 58" I had a flashback and was like "that did not feel like just 4 added ones" and then was subsequently floored when you added 300 to that... Now I'm considering how much time I have on my hands, I don't even remember what I was doing while taking the survey...
the reason cranky kong is really old and mario isnt is because mario has a crippling addiction to 1-up mushroom, of which's side effects include benjaman buttons disease
"There have been so many Warioware Microgames based specifically on the NES game Super Mario Bros. that they collectively add up to well over a hundredth of a milligame." this is an amazing sentence
... spiritual successor? But now that another video has come out, maybe it's just a "hmSMgat?"-like?? Are there any other videos exploring this topic (like for Zelda games, or mainline Ace Attorney games, or something??)
@@austinfletchermusicthat one episode of Unraveled (by Polygon. i forget the guy's name) where he talks about the true zelda timeline and gets into obscure titles is similar
i think more love needs to be given to the chapter titles. seeing “chapter two” pop up twice and then slowly figuring it out was a perfect boil-the-frog moment
@@comparatorclock It's a fairly common saying these days, at least on the internet. The idea is that the frog does not notice that the water temperature is rising soon enough to jump out before it boils and cooks the frog. So a "boil-the-frog moment" just means that something was too subtle to take note of until it was too late.
Taking a maximalist approach, I consider the infinite regress of nested wario ware games to be mainline mario games (canon). But is it a countable infinity?
Off topic but I’m surprised he didn’t entertain the possibility that there is no Donkey Kong The Third and that the modern Donkey Kong & Baby DK are both Donkey Kong Jr. when talking about the Mario & Jumpman distinction theory
The Super Mario series consists of the video games developed by Nintendo for Nintendo consoles that have 'I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater' in the title, excluding RPGs, party games, Mario Kart, sports games, and reissues of previously released Super Mario's.
Super Mario 3 is canon, it's just from back when you could still see the ropes. The Mario franchise is about a group of friends who play tennis, go go-karting together, play giant board games, and stage elaborate kidnapping-based roleplay scenarios. Super Mario Wonder is their highest production value effort yet.
Really appreciated your statistical analysis of survey results. Refreshing to hear someone properly acknowledge lurking variables in a data set, and not just using average as the end-all of statistics.
Another angle to the Bowser's Fury debate: In the bottom left of the title screen of Super Mario 3D World, there is a little icon with a pixelated Luigi on it that appears after you beat the game. If you click on the icon, you can play Luigi Bros., a reskinned port of NES Mario Bros. where both characters are Luigi. There is no version of the game that does not have this. So, if Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury isn't a distinct Super Mario game because you have to buy a pre-existing game along with the new content, then you can technically also argue that Super Mario 3D World isn't a distinct Super Mario game because you have to buy it bundled with a Mario Bros. port.
Wait wait wait, the 2 weegees thing wasn't just a Mario galaxy quirk? Are there 3 Mario bros, via 2 Luigis?? Does Luigi have a permanent clone?? Like Beth and Space Beth?? And for that matter, what about Gooigi?? Just how many Luigis are there??
I'm sorry Jan, but out of all the great quotes in this video, my favorite is by far whoever asked in the survey, "Could Mario knit a sweater so Super that he himself could not wear it?"
@@Theonethatjusthere it's a reference to the classic pop-theology conundrum "Could God create a mountain so big that He Himself couldn't move it?" which is usually posed as an exploration of what it means for someone to be omnipotent/all-powerful.
1:04:57 I love how the version with Yoshi theming has a higher percentage of people answering with 'no' than the version without anything Mario related in it
As a linguistics student, this video really captures what linguistics is about as opposed to what people think it’s about. Because this whole video is an exercise in semantics, I think applying some concepts from the field would be helpful. A particular word can be thought of as having a domain, similar to a Venn diagram with fuzzy boundaries that either contain or excludes things that the word can refer to. Items can be closer to or further away from the center of the domain. Items in the center are the things typically thought of when considering the word in a vacuum and are called prototypes. They also have the most features associated with the word, or stereotypes. For example, think of a bird. What makes it a bird? Feathers? A beak? Wings? The ability to fly? While the prototype for “bird” in your ming might be something like a sparrow, we still consider penguins and ostriches to be birds even though they don’t have all of the stereotypes of birdness. While I Am a Teacher: Super Mario Sweater is not a prototypical video game-it’s definitely not the first thing you’d think of while hearing the word-as jan Misali argues it does feature many of the stereotypes and is probably right on the fuzzy boundary of “video game”’s domain for me.
@@Duiker36 While I’m technically supposed to say, “Wow, what an interesting difference between your variety of English and mine!” I’m mostly concerned about what kind of quesadillas you’re making. 😅
As a mathematics student, "fuzzy Venn diagram with boundaries somewhere" reminds me way too much of the separation axioms for topological spaces. (The list and images here describe them: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_axiom#Preliminary_definitions.) Specifically, the ideas of "separating by neighborhoods" and "separating by a continuous function" correspond exactly to that fuzzy Venn diagram idea. You've got some set of meanings that you believe a given word definitely does refer to and a set of meanings you believe the word definitely doesn't refer to. Defining a continuous function separating those two sets of meanings is like describing how fuzzy the Venn diagram is at every point, such that the two sets of meanings are unambiguously respectively part of the domain of the word, and not part of the domain of the word. Where linguistics then looks at what you could use this idea of a "fuzzy domain" for in the field of semantics by using specific fuzzy domains when analyzing words, mathematics instead looks at how you can use the concept to describe how "natural", in a sense, abstractions of 1d, 2d, 3d, etc. spaces are by considering whether or not it's possible to distinguish various kinds of sets from one another using such fuzzy domains. Funny how those two concepts are vaguely related.
I don't think "I Am a Teacher: Super Mario Sweater" really contains any of the features of a video game though. It's far closer to a digital Lego instruction book than it is to any video game. You input the things you want to know and it tells you things. If I look up online instructions of how to build a Lego set and then I put that set together does that make it a video game? Surely not.
fun fact about your set theory chapter, in a relatively recent nintendo switch news article about super mario games available on switch (like september 2023) it includes yoshis island and says "Note: Is this a Mario game or a Yoshi game? Perhaps it's both!" not that the people who make the switch news articles are the official source, but definitely shows they could agree that games can be part of multiple series at once
also note that this list did not contain other games people would normally classify as spinoffs, no sports mario karts parties, but did include super mario all stars and super mario world (sp) the special nso version of mario world that gives you cheats or whatever (and probably the other sp's of main games i only have a screenshot of the snes section) so just the thinking used to make this article is a little interesting
@@magolor-3100 we are not talking about the same thing, im talking about an article on the nintendo switch news app on your switch. i know it didn't include run because run isn't available on switch and it was an article about mario games on switch
I unironically want this. What are the best measurements and character sprite for the fastest sweater? What are the optimal knitting tool to compete on a high level? I genuinely want to know
"but it's important to remember you can't analyze paratext in the same way you analyze text without jumping on it first to remove the wings" Yup, Misali's a linguistics fan alright. That wordsmithing is in-SANE.
I didn't notice that there were two chapter 2s so seeing the combined gut punch of "chapter land" "I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater" had me laughing throughout the entire first half of the segment. I personally think this is your funniest video yet
1:54:24 Erm, that's aksually exiting "stage-left", since stage directions are from the perspective of the performers. It's "house-right" from the perspective of the audience.
i was thinking he should've done every game except super mario bros (nes) but randomly picking 3d world as the only game that isn't a mainline game is just so funny
Lotta people still have the grudge from when that game came out. It got a frosty reception on release because at the time the Wii U was floundering, it wasn’t really the next mainline 3D Mario game, and there had just been so much Mario during the Wii, DS, and 3DS lifespans.
Listening to jan Misali get mad at people who didn't consider the sweater one to be a video game while I didn't even consider the Game and Watch games to be video games was a fun experience
A significant point towards the end of the first How Many Super Mario Games Are There was Misali saying “I explicitly don’t want this to just turn into a list of every single mario game”; and then he reversed and came out swinging with “okay you know what, IS every single mario game a super mario game?? what are video games, even????”
I’m a bit over halfway through the video, and I’m convinced they’re gonna bring up the possibility that a dream about Mario could be an official super Mario game.
In the first video, someone brought up that a game called “Speedster Comets” based off of the conditions of Speedster Comets in the Galaxy games counts as a mainline Super Mario game.
I agree with@@Mewtic2because I tend to look for long videos like this for when I'm working. (I'm a programmer, and it's very very boring unless I'm listening to something.)
By that definition of "video game" an ebook would also be considered a video game, which is not true. As well as the possibilities of applications like calenders or calculators if a person finds it "entertaining." I feel like you can come up with a more comprehensive and accurate definition than just screen + touch + fun = video game.
mario calculator is very arguably a video game, and visual novels are often described as ebooks. and besides that, why do you automatically assume ebooks and calendars and calculators aren't video games? if someone interacts with them the same way they do a video game, and they have the same level of enjoyment as a video game, what makes it not a video game?
@@quantumwillow2734I mean, is "video game" a status neutral category or do you think it's above/below the adjacent or overlapping ebook and visual novel categories? do instances of works that people agree are both video games which and ebooks prove that all ebooks must be video games? is the definition of a category also an accurate description of every instance of its contents, or do shades of prototypicality and gradations of category-type-ness come into play? also, I don't think a calculator is a type of game, under most circumstances. books can contain or be games in various ways, whether video or not, but calculators rarely have gameplay
this whole video (and subsequently this comment) brings up my favorite arguments people make about defining socially constructed, ambiguous concepts. like trying to define a chair without excluding anything which is generally considered a seat, like a couch, while also not including things like a horse, which is sat on and has four legs
Personally, I just take them as challenges, because there are ways to define a chair that is not just “a couch that is alone”, “things that can be sat on”, or “a horse”, but you need so much definitions.
my only note at the end of this two-hour video was, “that was it?” it’s amazing to watch somebody build their magnum opus in real time. i thoroughly enjoyed experiencing and being a small part of this process every step of the way. this is a brilliant work. for what it’s worth, i was part of the small cohort of responders to the 2021 survey who did select the modal response of eighteen games. i don’t think i put much thought into it at the time, but the more i have learned about this question the more set i am in that opinion. with the release of Super Mario Bros. Wonder, there are nineteen Super Mario games. i believe that within the linguistic framing of the question, nineteen is the most correct answer, or at least, the least incorrect answer. the data provided in this survey combined with the general usage by mario fans leads me to believe that when somebody colloquially refers to “the mario games”, that that particular set of nineteen games is closest to what they are generally referring to. but that isn’t a super interesting answer (and is thus excluded from the list of Super Mario games by the “super in title” criteria). the meat of the question is in why those nineteen games are generally considered to be the main super mario titles and not any of the others, which is of course why this video spends the majority of its runtime attempting to build possible answers to the mathematical framing of the question. it would be more satisfying and feel more legitimate if there were a clean set of testable criteria that one could throw any object into and unambiguously determine whether it was part of the Super Mario series. i don’t think that’s really possible to do with this text/paratext analysis. obviously Super Mario Bros. Special, the VS arcade game, All Night Nippon, and (Game & Watch) are not mainline Super Mario games. nobody would ever think of these games standing alongside the nineteen well-known classics and hits. but that’s hard to justify through analysis of the text and paratext themselves. if somebody with no context was locked in a room with nothing but the means to play the 358 games listed in the survey and all paratext of the franchise and were asked determine which games should be included as part of “Super Mario Bros. and all of its direct sequels”, they could very well see no difference between the way Special and VS build off of Super Mario Bros. and the way Lost Levels does it. the difference, bluntly, is that nobody has ever heard of them. i didn’t include those games when i originally responded because i had no idea what they were referring to. they might fulfill any criteria you could muster to determine a mainline Super Mario game, but if i am invited to “play some super mario” and am subsequently handed Super Mario Bros. (Game & Watch), i am going to be annoyed. i don’t think trying to find a specific filter that sorts games by their text and paratext alone is a useful approach, because nobody thinks about games in a vacuum. Special, VS, All Night Nippon, and (Game & Watch) will always exist in my mind as “those old weird ones” and nothing about the games themselves affects that. nineteen. final answer. what an endlessly fascinating question. it illuminates so much about the fuzzy definitions of words. an incredible journey and a brilliant, brilliant video.
@@Hewer86 Just curious, will you still consider Run mainline if and when the servers go down? Meaning that one day there will just be a permanently unplayable mainline Super Mario game?
@@KyletheReflectionist Not a bad question, but my answer is still yes. Even if the game no longer existed, that doesn't mean its existence never happened. If every NES (and like every other Nintendo console in existence) suddenly blew up and Super Mario Bros. 1 became entirely unplayable the world over, it still wouldn't stop being a mainline Super Mario game. If you really wanna get technical every video game will become completely unplayable eventually
@@Hewer86 Fair enough. I can't say I really agree, but I understand and respect the logic. I'm definitely part of the group he joked about in the video that doesn't consider mobile games real games for this reason. If a game is made to be a timeless experience (as timeless as a game can be), then I respect it. If it's made with a shelf life from the beginning, I don't think of it as a real game, personally.
@@KyletheReflectionist from there I guess you can make the argument that one could make a live service game without an end in sight, planning to keep it running for the foreseeable future (which kinda seems to be the current state of Mario Run). Sure there's the knowledge that eventually it's gonna have to die, but as I said, eventually every game ever will die. Ultimately I don't think the intent of whether the game's life will be long or short changes whether it is a game Also, do you consider Super Mario Bros. 35 to be (or have been) a video game? What about games that heavily featured online functionality that eventually and inevitably gets shut down? Did Super Mario Maker stop being a video game on 8th April? Was it never a video game?
1:09:23 ACTUALLY, WarioWare Inc is a studio under Nintendo, in-universe. As we see in the first game, Wario's business card lists the official Nintendo website on it. Since Wario had already been featured in many Nintendo games, I'm guessing the in-universe Nintendo struck a deal with him to let him make his own games. 9-Volt making Nintendo microgames would be no different than the devs of WarioWare in the real world making microgames based on Nintendo.
@@HBMmasterYou know what having his very existence be copyright infringement feel very in character for Wario since he is not only greedy, but also an in universe "rip-off" of Mario in a way
@@HBMmaster The idea of in-universe Nintendo being the opposite of real Nintendo-- so lax that they let anybody use and resell their games --is pretty funny
@@HBMmaster Wario’s blog on the WarioWare: Smooth Moves website directly implies that Nintendo has an official partnership with Wario and release his games on their platforms in the Mario World too. “For you Wario blog lovers out there, I have a good news for you today! I've got another game coming out! It's called "[WarioWare: Smooth Moves]"! The guys at Nintendo went out of their way to make a console called "Wii" for this software! If you buy this "Wii" and "[WarioWare: Smooth Moves]", you too can learn some nice Forms without even leaving your house! Good for you!” I would say they probably didn’t make the Wii specifically for Wario’s game (though I’m sure Wario believes they did), but it’s clear there’s some official level of collaboration there.
I Am A Teacher: Super Mario Sweater isn't a video game because it isn't for entertainment, it's just instructions to do something else for entertainment
I think one reason people might count intuitively count Super Mario 64 but not most of the other 3D games is more about identity and legacy rather than some kind of strict definition. 64 is very much set in the "established" world of Mario, and builds directly on what the 2D games created, in a way that carries forwards to other titles. Games like Galaxy and Odyssey are absolutely still building on recognisable elements from the game, but they bring new elements to the table (eg the space theme and Rosalina in the case of Galaxy) that give them their own distinct identity that you would not expect to appear in future Mario titles unless they're specifically either Galaxy or Odyssey sequels. That probably prompts some people to regard them as their own spinoff series, since they have their own brand identity distinct from that of the original Super Mario Bros series.
also a MASSIVE chunk of elements introduced in 64 were reused in new soup DS (and then about 2/3 of them trickled into a future new soup) because mooching off of SM64DS assets was mid-2000s nintendo's favorite hobby
That would make it useless as a definition, though, since it requires reference to the state of your mind at a specific point in time. You can't put that in a dictionary and expect anyone else picking it up to generate the same list.
@@Duiker36 Although the mathematician would definitely agree with you, my comment was intended to be more satisfying for the linguist, trying to understand how one individual person chooses what category to put a given game into. Also, as jan Misali spends a lot of time going over, any definition based on the title is mathematically useless anyway.
As someone who loved the first mainline entry in this video series, this one really hit it out of the park! I wish I could say I enjoyed watching it as much as you've clearly enjoyed making it. Anyway, I've got to get back to practicing my "I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater" speedruns. That marathon isn't gonna complete itself!
The sweater thing isn’t a vidoegame Though it uses an interactive digital element, it is not a videogame, as that digital element and it’s interactivity is not the primary focus, as it is primarily an educational software meant to teach you a thing separate, and though its interactive, it lacks the level of interactiveity required to be a videogame. Google docs is infinitely more a videogame than it. Simarlily, if we are to count the sweater thing as a game, then the physical dvd release of Disney’s Ratatouille movie is a video game. It is a piece of software with a level of interactivity with entertainment as a primary purpose (there is a menu you navigate through to select to watch a movie, use bonus features, etc) I hope you do not think that google docs and the physical dvd release of Disney’s ratatouille film are video games.
You say Chef is the only time a baby Yoshi has hatched from an egg laid by an adult Yoshi, but you forget - it actually happened before that in "Egg" in Game & Watch Gallery 3!
oh i didnt know that happened in egg! im not good enough at modern egg to have ever gotten that far lol. Chef did come before Egg tho, since a version of it was also in Game and Watch Gallery 2.
I guess this can qualify as one last top post. I always assumed everyone thought as you did in your "Super Mario Set Theory" concept. I was actually surprised when you assumed that putting Warioland in the mainline Super Mario series meant that all its sequels were in there, too. I think this may be the the most interesting thing I learned from the video--and that is saying something. I very much enjoyed this video and learned from it. It finally explains to me why people don't consider Yoshi's Island part of the Mario series, despite explicitly being said to be a sequel to Super Mario World. If they feel that means they must include every other Yoshi platformer, no wonder they leave it off.
And it's not a problem at all, because, if I'm looking for a particular series, then I don't care about the overlapping series. If I'm looking at the Super Mario games, I don't care about the Warioland games. Same if I'm picking the Mario Land games . I will just go down a single line of the tree. In fact, that's the whole point of doing it this way. Games can be in more than one series in the same way that you can classify people by, say, height and hair color. If I pick all the people with red hair, I don't have to worry about the people without red hair who are the same height as one of the redheads. They aren't redheads. They don't count.
Same here! Like, in my mind series aren’t mutually exclusive, so I always thought that some games that inspired their own series are part of the Super Mario series AS WELL AS being the beginning of their own series.
Perhaps we shouldn't think of it as an all in one "Mario Series" or just the 2 "Mario" and "Super Mario" distinctions. Rather a series and subset of series, each layer more canon than the last. There is the "world of Mario" series, this includes everything that takes place even tangentially in the Mario universe; including the DK, Wario, and Yoshi series. This may not include art games like Mario Sweater or color books, as they don't explicitly take place in the universe, only depicting it technically, but I couldn't print out artwork of a game and claim it to be a new entry in the series. However, Super Mario Picross may actually count as it does have cutscenes depicting the characters in their world acknowledging the events of the game (well, its all in Japanese so I don't know what they are actually saying, but the game is _IN_ universe regardless). Then there is the "Mario" Series specifically, This is the second layer under the "world of Mario" and is the games focused directly on the Mario side of things. Games like Wario Land and Yoshi's Island can be seen as bridges between the layers as they exist as both a Mario focused game, but also broadened out enough that their sequels no longer are. This is also where the spinoffs like Kart and Party and the RPGs reside. They take place in the Mario world but aren't technically canon. The Kart games could be seen as the "Mario Characters" in their own personal life off-stage, but they never break Kayfabe sort of thing. While the RPG games are their own storylines and canon, like the characters are actors that play multiple roles in different franchises. At the base of it all is the "SUPER Mario" series, the one that started it all and is the most mainline and canon ones. Obviously we may not all agree on which ones actually count. But it should be clear enough the distinction between this and the first 2 layers. The 3D games should count as they are still part of it, but if you are someone who truly thinks there is a separation between those and the "true Mario" games, then we could extend to another 4th layer which is the "platformer Super Mario" series (which is just the title and not a desciption to be clear, as other games that are called Super Mario and have platforming in them don't belong, this is just the layer for the most purest Canon games: 1, 2, usa, 3, World, Wonder for example). As for rereleases and such, I think that is up for interpretation if they should be in layer 2 or this one. Personally I think 64 DS is a "new" game as it does have a revised story and enough new elements to make it a "separate" game by technicality. But NSMBU Deluxe is just a rerelease with nothing so substantial added to make it a distinct entry canonically. So I could see that being kept in layer 2, as its not a separate entry in the series so isn't in itself canon, but the original is and its just a rerelease so its up to you what layer they belong to. Maybe this setup would make things a bit easier to classify? Obviously some changes would be changed or added over time to make it work better. But its a decent start?
intro and outro tracks are both featured in this album that you can get on bandcamp
[ conlangcritic.bandcamp.com/album/disambiguation-in-parentheses ]
Whole video is cool, but I really like the outro track, nice job on that
I need a list of every one of the 358 games
Is there a way for us to explore the bubble graph shown around the 36 minute mark?
I'm not saying that I intentionally said "every mainline Mario game" just to get in a future jan Misali video. But I'm also not NOT saying that.
"GMTK Game Jam 2024 theme = Mario" confirmed.
Is Mind over Magnet a super mario game
Don't be shy drop your list Mark
@@louisng114 Nintendo will call a hit on him and try to sue each and every person who thought about the game jam
You sure aren’t saying not that you aren’t already said that, aren’t you?
Not this again
homberguy
the fact this only got like 18 likes currently is insane
investing at 3 replies
The only Super Mario games are the ones that Tommy Tallarico worked on.
8 days 53 likes holy flop
Whay a survey. Clicking the "yes, I am a Super Mario expert!" checkbox then immediately being faced with a dozen arcade games I'd never heard of was a very humbling experience, I must say.
Just a dozen!?!?!?
I do know of a lot of those games but felt very uncomfortable clicking the "expert" box.
It just goes to show, the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.
@kruks I fell into an extremely ironic trap: I didn't consider that being aware *of* the Dunning Kruger Effect would not necessarily protect me *from* the Dunning Kruger Effect
I remember having more or less the same experience lol
@@Ethan-ky3ei Is that called the Dunning-Kruger Effect Effect?
Shout out to that 0.02% that consider the original Super Mario Bros a minor spinoff that is not a distinct entry in the series
I mean, you certainly could have said it was a minor spinoff of Mario Bros when it was released
@@ethertheeosthere are no mainline Mario games as they are all Donkey Kong spin-offs
@@TheRealVbros Wrong, they are all Popeye bootlegs
@@ethertheeos true
Well it's not a distinct entry because uhh uhhh
I'm John Nintendo. There are exactly 22 Super Mario games and I'm not telling you what they are.
For the last time John, if you aren't going to order I'm going to have to ask you to leave this Denny's
@@jennareynolds1403Sir/Ma'am, this isn't a Denny's, this is a Wendy's.
theyre all donkey kong jr math
@@weezerfan427 22 likes... Its The Truth
thanks John!
There's a lot of lines here that flashbanged me but i have to shout out "you can't analyze paratext like you analyze text without first jumping on it to remove the wings" as a near-perfect joke
help someone please explain it to me
@@yuvalne In Mario games, enemies that are a variant of a different enemy but with wings are called "para" like the Parakoopa. Jumping on them removes the wings, thus turning a Parakoopa into a Koopa.
@@palas2891 ohhhh thanks!
This is peak performance Jan
Agreed, that one legitimately made me pause and lower my head because that was just. so smooth. perfectly executed joke, including just moving on like nothing happened afterwards
1:08:20 referring to ten microgames "a hundredth of a milligame" had me ROLLING
its like the nerdiest thing i've ever heard and i love it
8:23 Hey, that's me!! Thanks for mentioning my marathon!
Loved your original video and was honored to come to the same conclusion of 18 mainline games. I am shocked to see 2 more hours of this (one hour for every new mainline game since the first video lol). Good stuff!
oh hi there kosmicd12
hahaha I immediately went to the comments when this video popped up on my homepage to see if someone had posted about your marathon, really happy to see it was actually in the video 😅
Would honestly be pretty fun to see you talk about this question, I think. You could call it "mario philosophy" or something.
Hey there Kosmic
Legend
The singular take of “every game is a mario game except SM 3D World” is honestly an impressively funny bit
I’m also very surprised NO ONE put the whole list as a Mario game
@@meee_5155
✓ interactive
✓ on an electronic device
✓ has super mario in the title
checks out to me
I wonder why specifically 3DWorld too, and it isn't cuz "furry game" because SMB3 and 3DLand exist
@@mariotheundying Truthfully they probably just thought It'd be funny to include every game except for exactly one of the "probably mainline" ones and randomly chose 3d world. Nothing against the game itself, just part of the bit.
Edit: The way that the submission was described also implied that it was specifically just the original 3d world that was omitted and not 3d world + bowser's fury, which further indicates that the person who submitted that response probably doesn't have anything against 3d world for real.
i also love the implication that the only two video games ever made that aren’t mario games are 3D World and Pong
i really enjoy the idea of classifying clubhouse games: 51 worldwide classics as a mario game specifically under the classification of “mario is playable” because you certainly do play cards with mario on them
the individual card games in 64 ds and clubhouse games are all distinct entries in the Super Mario series
this is genius
It doesn't have to be that obtuse either. All the Super Smash Brothers games have Mario as a playable character.
Man, I love playing Sora, Banjo and Kazooie, and a Squid Kid in a Mario game.
@@iantaakalla8180 I mean, Squid Kid is also playable in Mario Kart 8...
My favorite moment in history was when, right after Diogenes proclaimed a plucked bird was a man, Jan Misali came running in behind him holding up I am a Teacher: Super Mario Sweater shouting "BEHOLD, A MAINLINE SUPER MARIO GAME!"
This is my favourite comment on this video, I had to screenshot it and send it to a friend.
ok
jan Misali*
The "jan" is uncapitalised.
i just feel like i need to apologize for being the 1,000th like on your comment, as 999 looks subjectively more visually pleasing
I think another angle worth exploring is 'type of guy who thinks only the good mario games are mainline', and the definition of good is 'I played it and I enjoyed it'
I think that’s the way most people define it
(Or at least, “I want to play it”)
Pretty close to the "vibes" approach
this is my take and why i consider yoshi’s island a mainline mario game
That's Star Wars fans
Nah I don’t like sunshine and lost levels and those are still very much mainline
"Could Mario knit a sweater so Super that he himself could not wear it?" goes so hard
If sweater, then only teacher 🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣
My pick for best line in the video
If a Super Mario Sweater exists, why is there fast fashion in the world?
If Mario is truly Superbenevolent, then how come there's goombas in the world?
perchance.
"so you can make a jumper about your favourite jumper"
best line written by a human
"you wear it and it's soft, so it's software"
second best line written by a human
"the reason this is my favorite definition is that it's so meticulously crafted, it accounts for so many edge cases, and it includes I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater"
third best line written by a human (I broke into laughter so hard when I heard this line I had to pause the video to calm myself)
"the 'Super Mario Bros.' movie, or
the 'The Super Mario Bros. Movie' movie"
is another highlight from me.
My favorite is “you can’t analyze paratext like you can text without first jumping on it to remove it’s wings”
53:36 "Well you wear it, and it is soft. That makes it software" fucking killed me
the virgin jan misali [extensive statistical and textual analysis] vs the chad my mom [calling every video game a 'mario']
important question: does your mom say this about super mario: 3d world
I love how youtube classified this video as a video about "I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater" meaning that this is undoubtedly the most super mario game
It also means this video is officially part of the Super Mario series
you can manually choose which game you put there so I assume its a deliberate bit but like, its a good bit and foreshadowing that most people would not notice until it came up.
It most certainly is a mainline super Mario Bros. Game
ACTUAL GOD TIER JOKE WTF NO WAY AAA💀😭
If TH-cam Gaming calls it a video game, I guess I have to agree.
I would pay to see a Mario marathon where someone has to play "I Am A Teacher: Super Mario Sweater" after finishing Lost Levels.
This does exist. Look up "All the Marios" by Doc Phoenix. At this for 5 years now.
"Kingdom Hearts does it"
Might actually be the scariest way i've ever seen to classify something as "part of the main series"
Following the addition of Sora to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater is now a mainline game in the Kingdom Hearts series
I think that might be the scariest way to justify anything, tbh. lol
@@Stroomp Now I want a Slasher Horror movie where the only answer we get from the killer about why they kill is "Kingdom Hearts does it"
The media analysis version of "it works in Kerbal Space Program"
"Kingdom Hearts has screwed us again!!"
36:10 I'm sorry but saying every single game is a mainline Super Mario game except Super Mario 3D World is a way better bit than saying every single game is a mainline Super Mario game. Top tier, actually.
It would have been an even better bit if the other two chucklefucks stuck to their 358 bit. Like having 2 guys say all 358 and one guy saying 357 adds in the "okay what the fuck is this your actual opinion?!" Possibility, while having the longest list be 357 makes it nigh certain he's a chucklefuck.
Like sure in the former he would *probably* be a chucklefuck but there's a decent chance he's not. In the latter it's all but guaranteed.
I adore the manic energy of jan showing qualitative survey responses of people getting increasingly angry about the questions they're being asked all the while, they just patiently respond with the most calm, hyper-specific way to debunk their thought process
@@justsomerandominternetuser go home
@@Pixelcraftianwoah you’re everywhere in TH-cam comments
@@justsomerandominternetusercan this man live in peace lmao
@@justsomerandominternetuser It's been 8 years of people making the same """joke""" under all his comments
If I'm A Teacher: Super Mario Sweater is not a game in the Super Mario franchise, then why is it the video game that appears in the description of this video?
i think having only a quarter of a percent being jokesters is because the survey was so long that people would have a hard time committing to the bit for that amount of time.
nice pfp
exactly the situation
And anyone who commits to the bit that hard earned it.
Makes the person who said yes to everything except 3D World even funnier
honestly super refreshing to see someone read statistics and actually know what they mean online, far far too often people only take the numbers and ignore any outside factors to draw their conclusions
I love the way you handle data. Going over all the results and explaining what they could mean and how the data may be flawed, yet not completely dismissing it, makes for a much more interesting video than either cutting out any complicated data or including everything without question. Instead of looking for rigid answers you went over what the data would mean based on including or not including the answers from various people based on how they answered.
After hearing Misali Misali for two combined hours, I realize the main strength of their presentational style. In a few words, what makes Misali stand out is this "warm formality." by which I mean, a lot of YTers in this circle/circles are a lot more casual, while Misali is more "scholarly" - upright but not too head-on - the incarnation of "in my humble opinion". Misali uses this professor aura to do added damage when fearlessly stating bold hypotheses or swiftly tossing in the wildest knee-snappers.
In fewer words, a pedant but not overly pedantic
Knee-slappers? Or…
when misali said “DIC (dick) Entertainment, pronounced like deek” out loud I had to pause the video and pace around my kitchen laughing, for like 2 minutes. The formality of their work makes the comedic hits stand out tenfold
It's the autism for sure
@@cara-seyun A knee-slapper with the force and precision of a swung baseball bat.
I'd like to say everyone loves this video, but unfortunately there's no consensus.
Although there is an extremely strong and isolated cluster of 19 choices regarding love towards this video forming a distinct and statistically significant island at the top right of this chart, we, for reasons unknowable, believe that no consensus has been reached.
We could at least say 5% of people love this video for catering to their beliefs.
Over 95% concencus, 18k likes 278 dislikes. This video is a Mario game.
But there needs to be gameplay, otherwise every TH-cam video is a mainline Super Mario game. This is the issue with the Sweater thingy.
@@boldCactusladLOL
Major respect to the guy at 6:32 willing to write a whole paragraph explaining why Mario Clock is a mainline entry
They convinced me
Whats the time stamp?
@@cadesmith68426:32
There have been official sources that lists run as mainline but not mario clock. I believe that is a good reason to seperate those two games, so the argument fails(in my opinion). This is regardless only true if we consider run as mainline which it is arguably not as it is not on Nintendo platforms.
Of course the difference is that Mario run has levels while the clock doesn’t
I need to watch this entire video again just to compile all the amazing one-liners
- so you can make a jumper about your favourite jumper
- the 'Super Mario Bros.' movie, or the 'The Super Mario Bros. Movie' movie
- There have been so many Warioware Microgames based specifically on the NES game Super Mario Bros. that they collectively add up to well over a hundredth of a milligame
- You can’t analyze paratext the same way you analyze text without jumping on it first to remove the wings
- At this point, you're probably wondering (or even Super Mario Bros. Wonder-ing)
thank you for compiling some of the most important information of the video
A friend of mine has a take that is so strange to me that I genuinely didn't even consider it as a possibility. He asserts that with the release of Super Mario 64, a core part of the series identity changed from 2D to 3D, and thus any 2D games released after (such as the New Supers and Wonder) do not count as mainline.
This is how I have intuitively conceived of the mainline Super Mario games as well. I've seen it as a core of flagship console games which, starting with Super Mario 64, changed from a series of linear sidescrolling platformers into a series of 3D collectathons. To me the New Soup games never felt like part of this core series, neither did the 3D World games, which game design wise have more in common with its 2D predecessors than they do with 64. The earlier handhelds also felt to me like a different thing. I'm surprised not many more people have brought up this idea, which until I started watching these videos and reflecting on it just seemed kind of intuitively correct. Perhaps on reflection one can take a broader view of the mainline and instead view the "flagship" games as a sub-series within it, just as one could view, say, the Land, New Soup, 3D World and Maker games as other sub-series.
@@Oenols I would actually argue that 3D World is one of the most "flagship" games. If you look at things like merchandizing and the Universal theme parks, the core Mario aesthetic seems to be heavily based on 3D World these days.
@@swordandpenguin8983 You could be right. I guess my subjective view is shaped by how the big Mario games in my formative years were 64, Sunshine and Galaxy. The New Soup and 3D World games when they came out felt like they were trying to be a different thing. The one that's really confusing me now though is Wonder which obviously isn't a follow-up to Odyssey, but also doesn't slot into any other established sub-series. Anyway I'm not sure if this conception I've distinctly had of the series in my mind is really described by the term "mainline". I certainly haven't consciously applied this word to it (and I guess I wouldn't anyway, since I'm not a native English speaker). I certainly couldn't translate my pre-existing ideas easily into the terms used in the survey, since the relation the New Soups etc. stand in to the "core games" in my mind isn't really adequately covered by the word "spin-off".
@@Oenolscorrect me if I'm wrong on this assumption, but do you believe that no future 2D mario can possibly be mainline again?
@@jclkaytwo I don't, and in fact I'm undecided on Wonder which doesn't seem consciously backwards-looking in the same way (I have not yet played it)
My #1 takeaway from this is that I want the multi-hour breakdown of what you DO consider to be "ambiguously video games"
(slams fist on table) PAPER MARIO WEB BROWSER
@@HBMmaster Do it coward no bolas
there is a pretty neat ahoy video that goes into this a little looking into what the first video game was
Let's go in another direction: Are old-school roguelikes "video games"? They (mostly) use colored ASCII art to render the environment, although modern ones often have an option to use graphical tiles instead. Does that mean that they're "text games" and not video games? If you count LCD screens, it seems difficult to argue that you can't count text as well.
But then you've opened the door. Now we come to old-school text adventures, which use text to _describe_ the environment, and you have to visualize it yourself. You also use text to tell the game what you want to do next (typing commands such as GET YE FLASK to pick something up). Are those video games, or is this different because the text is being used as text and not as a means of drawing an image?
@@NYKevin100 I'd say the biggest difference between the two is the intent of the ascii characters.
In a text adventure game they are used as words, and oldschool roguelikes use them to represent interactive elements.
But honestly i would count both as video games anyway the video part of video games only really defines what you are using to play it not whether it has active animation or not.
babe wake up we need to discuss how many super mario games there are again
i was literally going to say this lol
Babe! Stop saying there's only twenty mario games, you're not even making sense!
+
for 2 hours
I see you everywhere!
Slowly realizing the way the chapters were “numbered” was incredible
based off that sweater section, Misali's next hit video is gonna be "how many video games are there?" based off the results of a 10+ hour, over 1,000 question long google forms survey.
I follow his Tumblr, after this survey he's never using Google Forms again.
Yeah, he said he's just going to visit peoples homes and lock them in with him until they finish his interview.
Over 1,000? Pretty sure you're lowballing it.
@@Pablo360ableit is technically over 1000
Gotta be at least 5
1:35:30 In Super Paper Mario you don't play as Mario, you play as Paper Mario, which is a different character entirely as seen in Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam
actually you play as Jumpman's monster
He's a different character as seen in Paper Jam, he's not a different character as seen in Super Paper Mario
Okay, but do we know if we play as the same Mario in *any* of the Mario games? As you said, there has been at least this one instance where there were two separate versions of Mario from two parallel universes, so these are a thing in the Mario franchise. How do we know, which games are even featuring the same incarnation of Mario? Is the Mario RPG Mario the same Mario as the Mario + Luigi Mario? Is Paper Mario with a white border the same character as Paper Mario without the white border? If SMB 3 is a play, is the 'mainline Mario' the character within the play or the actor playing the character? Or both/neither? Is the story of a lot of Mario games so similar because they are the same events playing out slightly differently in different universes???
Idk
honestly I refuse to accept that paper jam happened. paper mario is just mario in a different artstyle.
@@jclkaytwo there's technically nothing in Paper Jam confirming that the paper world the separate Paper Mario comes from is the same as the world of the Paper Mario series, so yeah Paper Mario just being different art style is a valid interpretation
...almost, if we ignore the many references to the characters themselves being explicitly made of paper especially in Sticker Star onwards...ok how about just Sticker Star onwards is the paper world from Paper Jam
I love the respondent at 1:23:32 who says Super Mario Run doesn’t count because it’s “just made for nintendo to make money”. You know, as opposed to all the other games in the series, which Nintendo did not profit from.
I also like to imagine the two people who claimed “mobile games are not real” aren’t saying mobile games don’t count, but rather that they don’t think mobile games exist at all. Super Mario Run is actually an elaborate hoax
All of the Super Mario Run gameplay footage has just been modded New Super Mario Bros. U footage cropped to a portrait aspect ratio
Everyone famously knows that every video game Nintendo made was at a loss, up until Super Mario Run.
@@Ryann9something something gamecube wii u
mobile games have a bad rep for a very good reason but unfortunately that means that some games get undeserved hate for it.
super mario run is a hoax invented by big nintendo to sell more mario
The "I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater (NES, 1986)" section immediately made me like and subscribe more than any actual request for me to like and subscribe would have.
Shoutout to my favourite Mario games; Bros, Wario Faces Consequences for his Actions, 7 Grand Dad, the State of Delaware, and of course, I am a Teacher: Super Mario Sweater.
don't forget the concept of Supersymmetry
and the jan Misali video 'how many Super Mario games are there NOW?'
The best part of that title is how confident it is about being a teacher
@@Seloliva1015actually titles alone do not give enough information, hence there is no consensus as to whether it is a mainline teacher or not
You also forgot Skylanders: Superchargers
two things:
1. I Am A Teacher: Super Mario Sweater is probably the best gotcha I've ever seen in a video like this and I struggled to not wake up my sleeping child by laughing out loud when I saw it
2. the list of games to play to get the whole context of the super mario games has big "Gamechamp3000 gives a list of required reading for the Kingdom Hearts series" energy
What video was that from Gamechamp?
@@greenknight421 “The Actual True Kingdom Hearts Play Order”
now im curious what ms gamerchamp's list of mainline games is. surely she is based enough to include yoshis island and wario land and stuff right? right???
I would pay good money to listen to Gamechamp and jan Misali discuss which games are mainline Super Mario games
@@noahblack914 we crossover we didn’t know we needed
When presented with the question "What even is canon for Super Mario?" I answer by choosing to disbelief in homophones, and answering "Something that fires a Bullet Bill".
underated joke
But are those canons? In the Mario Maker games they are called bullet bill blasters not canons. Not to mention bullet bills are based on bullets which typically come out of guns not canons. Canonballs typically come out of canons and that is true in the mario series where canon looking objects fire metal balls which can be assumed to be canonballs. But your definition excludes those canon for some reason.
Bullet bills come out of mortars not cannons
@@bigfanofsb653 All incredibly valid, but most importantly, thank you for "Canonballs".
Why does asking the question "What is this thing exactly?" seem to always return the answer "This thing isn't actually real." when you go far enough.
Because it turns out that the concepts we invent to conceptualise the world don't actually have to line up with reality very well. Like the Ship of Theseus problem: turns out "ship" is just something we made up that has no actual significant meaning when you really look at it closely. Its all just atoms.
Because words are a concept that has no truth behind them, as there is no physical explanation as to what is a book, you can always start redefining what words mean, hence why questions like „what is a super mario game“ are inherently futile
It brings back Diogenes absolutely roasting Plato with the Behold a Man! Bit
Because the things that *are* real (whatever they are) are so far beneath our ability to perceive them that our entire world is effectively constructed of abstractions.
In the game of Go, a very important strategic concept is the "group". Groups appear naturally on the board as stones are placed, and have properties such as "alive" and "dead" that effectively determine who wins the game. And yet if you read the rules of Go, you will find no mention of any of these concepts. They are not "real". Pretty much everything we can perceive is like that.
Because things that are real tend to be concrete enough that you don't need to ask what they are, exactly
1:01:27 "'Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story', a game about the story inside of both 'Mario' and 'Luigi: Bowser'" this is the master-class level of bit that I've come to expect from this channel.
- Mentions you like Rhythm Heaven
- Now begs for a survey of how many *explicitly different* Rhythm Heaven minigames there are.
this is unfortunately a lot more cut and dry than mario, mostly because sequels are designated as such. i get the idea that the game karate man has multiple incarnations all called karate man (which carries to a few other examples), but i think the only place where it gets difficult is the megamix prequels, all of which i would not classify as separate games. imo this comes down to whether a game has a different title and gameplay from its…
wait…samurai slice
When jan Misali is all too happy to outright state “nobody would finish an entire survey of WarioWare micro games”, you and I both understand that’s gotta be the next big thing, right?
>But all microgames, by definition, in the text of WarioWare as a whole, are in the WarioWare series.
Then how do you explain all the cross-pollination of Rhythm Heaven and WarioWare? Within smaller games inside of a bigger package, no less?
>Wario did not make them.
1, God didn’t write the NIV translation of the Bible either, and 2, we have not conclusively disproven Wario did not produce Rhythm Heaven in its canon.
@@TownDarlingbuilt to scale as well
@@PossiblyCoolAnimations you can’t do this to me
@@lancesmith8298 god didn’t write any of the bible, he’s a fictional character
1:23:24 I love how the second response seems to work under the assumption that every single other game in the franchise was created just out of _sheer love for the arts_ and that the developers had *no expectations of getting paid at the end of the day.*
Noted. Cuphead is a Mario game by these standards (Cuphead started as two brother who wanted to make their video game at all costs to the point where they had to pension their house), as are games meant to practice making video games. The amount of video games under the Mario franchise is incomprehensibly vast!
Diogenes, holding up a sweater: "Behold! A Super Mario game!"
you know, saying "Cranky Kong aged faster than Mario" is also a valid way to explain the contradiction
That was something that was bought up in MatPat's video - gorillas have a shorter lifespan than humans.
Although at the end of the day, Nintendo doesn't really strive to maintain consistency in Mario games, so I personally wouldn't be surprised if some things were just outright contradictory. They may call back to other games, but they're essentially supposed to stand on their own.
@@logicalfundy There's already plenty of contradictions. Is Cranky Kong DK's grandpa or dad? Is Mario a 2d man in a 2d world, a 3d man in a 3d world, or a 2d man in a 3d world? Is that mushroom thing on Toad's head a hat or part of his head? Is Mario normally as tall as Peach, or is he super short except when he eats a mushroom?
I personally just like the idea that Donkey Kong Country is set in the future of the Mario games, and the Donkey Kong that we see in Mario Kart, Mario Party, and the sports games is actually Cranky.
The DK connection is also fun because Diddy Kong Racing implies that Banjo and Kazooie and Conker's Bad Fur Day are part of Mario canon.
@@gregoryhayes7569 Wouldn't that also imply that Mario and Baby Mario are different people, since they can race together in some Mario Kart games?
@@DanielLCarrier I don't have a good answer to that. You're probably right.
Hey I'm really really glad you enjoyed the stream !!
Woah it’s you
I should check out your channel
I keep forgetting that there's a lot of Clownhouse fandom overlap here
“You can’t analyze paratext the same way you analyze text without jumping on it first to remove the wings” OMG
That’s the silliest and dorkiest way to check if anyone is still paying attention an hour and a half into this video.
It’s also exactly what I think whenever a word has that prefix lol!
Me when I jump on a commercial about a video game to turn it into a video game
I’m surprised the metric of sales never came up even once. It’s an odd metric, sure, but Disney’s official Disney Princesses list uses box office sales of the princess’s movie as one of the factors determining if she is part of the official list. This can rule out most edge cases that the other linguist definitions didn’t think about. If sales is too weird of a metric for you, why not copies made at first release? Of course, neither of these are good on their own, but they can overlap for good use. Ex: a video game (the definition we used earlier, but include that the software is the fun itself) is part of the Super Mario series if it’s a platformer or a platformer game with elements from other genres where Mario is a playable character, its developed by Nintendo, has “Mario” in the title, and the game sold X many copies in its first year.
this does get rid of the wiredest egde case and the only problem i see is super smash bros brawl
56:08 Shoutout to that singular surveyee who had no idea what Paper Mario: Sticker Star is.
That surveyor is also the person who writes Super Mario-kun apparently
so innocent and naive... so young and happy...
I wonder if there was a person who snidely classified Sticker Star as “part of the Super Mario series” because they thought it cribbed far too much from the Super Mario series to be called a Paper Mario game.
i am jealous of that person
Or New Super Luigi U
I want nothing more than a voice clip of the person who submitted "I AM NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT F***ING SWEATERS JAN MISALI" yelling that line for my personal soundboard exclusively populated by people saying things that no-one else has any context for.
Same energy as ITYSL's "I can't know how to hear any more questions about tables!"
Girl, we've been knowing what a super mario game is.
I Am A Teacher: Super Mario Sweater.
HUH????
I'm a Super Mario sweater softwear
If you don't knit a Super Mario sweater during your Super Mario marathon, it isn't officially a part of the "Every Super Mario Marathon" series
our drawings - princess movie is a mainline entry into the super mario brothers series
TH-cam classified this video as an I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater video, therefore that is the most Mario Mario game.
i am a teacher: super mario sweater is my new favourite game and i really really hope people start adding it to their all super mario marathons
So funny that like a month and a half after the video's release, Mario Wonder is STILL not included on the timeline of Nintendo of America's website, even though it almost certainly should be, given its existence is plastered over the site's homepage lol-
Nearing the end of 2024 and 6 months after the video's release, and it's somehow STILL not on the website. Genuinely incredible stuff.
you know what, yes, you convinced me. super mario sweater is 100% a mainline mario game i'm down for it.
editing this comment at about 1:54:00ish into watching to say that not only is super mario sweater a canon mario game, but by accounts of it being an actual sweater i am knitting it is the ONLY canon mario game as it does happen in real life.
To be fair, the Napoleonic Wars happened in real life but that doesn’t make them cannon to Mario. Now that I’m typing that I now realize that there’s probably some official drawing of Mario dressed as Napoleon from like 1989. Nevermind! What you said makes perfect sense I am just not sober.
@@fredericksmith7942new head cannon: the napoleonic wars happened in the Mario universe
@@Stickfigure70 I mean, the civil war was canon, so why not napoleonic wars?
@@TheRealVbros wdym the civil war was cannon?
@@Stickfigure70 there were Mario quiz cards where one depicted Mario and Luigi in the Civil War against each other where Mario was a Union Solder and Luigi was a Confederate Soldier
Ok but imagine being that one guy who wrote the "We Didn't Start the Fire" parody. Imagine your goof on a survey getting a specific shout out in a video like this. That just seems so fun.
I want to see a full version of it SO BADLY
@@letsplaytodayusa the full version is on the channel. it was a spinoff video in the "how many Super Mario games are there?" series, but not a mainline entry.
@@IlSharmoutahow can you be so sure?
As someone who partook in that survey, you stating "instead of 54, I gave 58" I had a flashback and was like "that did not feel like just 4 added ones" and then was subsequently floored when you added 300 to that...
Now I'm considering how much time I have on my hands, I don't even remember what I was doing while taking the survey...
I hope you at least drank some water.
I was wasting an entire period in art when I took it. I barely managed to finish it before the bell rang
the reason cranky kong is really old and mario isnt is because mario has a crippling addiction to 1-up mushroom, of which's side effects include benjaman buttons disease
"There have been so many Warioware Microgames based specifically on the NES game Super Mario Bros. that they collectively add up to well over a hundredth of a milligame."
this is an amazing sentence
"Is _The Actual, True Kingdom Hearts Play Order_ part of the _how many Super Mario games are there?_ series?"
... spiritual successor? But now that another video has come out, maybe it's just a "hmSMgat?"-like?? Are there any other videos exploring this topic (like for Zelda games, or mainline Ace Attorney games, or something??)
@@austinfletchermusicthat one episode of Unraveled (by Polygon. i forget the guy's name) where he talks about the true zelda timeline and gets into obscure titles is similar
@@chainswordcs Brian David Gilbert is the name you're looking for
Now I need a Jan Misali/Miss Gamerchamp Crossover
Yes. This now includes 4 because the upcoming trailer debuting next week at SGF has Mario in it for approximately 0.5 seconds (source: trust me guys)
i think more love needs to be given to the chapter titles. seeing “chapter two” pop up twice and then slowly figuring it out was a perfect boil-the-frog moment
I have never heard of boiling frogs before.
@@comparatorclock It's a fairly common saying these days, at least on the internet. The idea is that the frog does not notice that the water temperature is rising soon enough to jump out before it boils and cooks the frog. So a "boil-the-frog moment" just means that something was too subtle to take note of until it was too late.
I only noticed at the end when they pointed it out and I am kicking myself for not noticing sooner LMAO
It took me so long to figure out why it was chapter land, world, etc
Fun fact: apparently the boiling the frog story is apocryphal. The frogs that let themselves be boiled were supposedly lobotomized.
Taking a maximalist approach, I consider the infinite regress of nested wario ware games to be mainline mario games (canon). But is it a countable infinity?
Wow, this is the crossover I never knew I've always wanted.
I expect a Heaven Studio level of the ending remix by the end of the weekend.
👀
Challenge accepted apparently
Someone better get on it
Off topic but I’m surprised he didn’t entertain the possibility that there is no Donkey Kong The Third and that the modern Donkey Kong & Baby DK are both Donkey Kong Jr. when talking about the Mario & Jumpman distinction theory
I'm already working on it! Let you know when its done :)
EDIT : It is done, the second entry in the series- th-cam.com/video/sfXCqWCkr9I/w-d-xo.html
The Super Mario series consists of the video games developed by Nintendo for Nintendo consoles that have 'I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater' in the title, excluding RPGs, party games, Mario Kart, sports games, and reissues of previously released Super Mario's.
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lets gooo
Oh, fuck I'm so sorry, I fell asleep
@@scarlett_greenrose4807 but its I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater
There is exactly 2 super mario games. I am not saying which one is the second one
Super Mario 3 is canon, it's just from back when you could still see the ropes. The Mario franchise is about a group of friends who play tennis, go go-karting together, play giant board games, and stage elaborate kidnapping-based roleplay scenarios. Super Mario Wonder is their highest production value effort yet.
the idea that the Mario cast of characters is basically like Starkid is a wonderful one, thank you
This is one of my favorites.
didn't miyamoto himself say they are pretty much a theatre troupe?
I now need a fanfic based off this 😂😂😂
Surely Galaxy must have a higher production value in-universe?
Really appreciated your statistical analysis of survey results. Refreshing to hear someone properly acknowledge lurking variables in a data set, and not just using average as the end-all of statistics.
How is no one else here commenting on the fact that the footage of the "game that teaches you how to knit" clearly shows you how to crochet
they are
I HAD THE SAME THOUGHT
the curse of a textile artist is suffering when people can't tell apart sewing, embroider, crochet, knitting, macrame...
Another angle to the Bowser's Fury debate: In the bottom left of the title screen of Super Mario 3D World, there is a little icon with a pixelated Luigi on it that appears after you beat the game. If you click on the icon, you can play Luigi Bros., a reskinned port of NES Mario Bros. where both characters are Luigi. There is no version of the game that does not have this. So, if Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury isn't a distinct Super Mario game because you have to buy a pre-existing game along with the new content, then you can technically also argue that Super Mario 3D World isn't a distinct Super Mario game because you have to buy it bundled with a Mario Bros. port.
You are an agent of chaos and I love it.
So THAT'S why that one guy said it's not a Mario game
Wait wait wait, the 2 weegees thing wasn't just a Mario galaxy quirk? Are there 3 Mario bros, via 2 Luigis?? Does Luigi have a permanent clone?? Like Beth and Space Beth?? And for that matter, what about Gooigi?? Just how many Luigis are there??
@@comparatorclock just wait until you hear about Mario & Luigi: Dream Team
I'm sorry Jan, but out of all the great quotes in this video, my favorite is by far whoever asked in the survey, "Could Mario knit a sweater so Super that he himself could not wear it?"
explain the joke please
@@Theonethatjusthere it's a reference to the classic pop-theology conundrum "Could God create a mountain so big that He Himself couldn't move it?" which is usually posed as an exploration of what it means for someone to be omnipotent/all-powerful.
FYI, his name is Misali. "jan" is a toki pona word for indicating that the next word is a person's name.
1:04:57 I love how the version with Yoshi theming has a higher percentage of people answering with 'no' than the version without anything Mario related in it
As a linguistics student, this video really captures what linguistics is about as opposed to what people think it’s about. Because this whole video is an exercise in semantics, I think applying some concepts from the field would be helpful. A particular word can be thought of as having a domain, similar to a Venn diagram with fuzzy boundaries that either contain or excludes things that the word can refer to. Items can be closer to or further away from the center of the domain. Items in the center are the things typically thought of when considering the word in a vacuum and are called prototypes. They also have the most features associated with the word, or stereotypes. For example, think of a bird. What makes it a bird? Feathers? A beak? Wings? The ability to fly? While the prototype for “bird” in your ming might be something like a sparrow, we still consider penguins and ostriches to be birds even though they don’t have all of the stereotypes of birdness. While I Am a Teacher: Super Mario Sweater is not a prototypical video game-it’s definitely not the first thing you’d think of while hearing the word-as jan Misali argues it does feature many of the stereotypes and is probably right on the fuzzy boundary of “video game”’s domain for me.
A quesadilla is obviously a burrito, though.
@@Duiker36 While I’m technically supposed to say, “Wow, what an interesting difference between your variety of English and mine!” I’m mostly concerned about what kind of quesadillas you’re making. 😅
It sounds like a lot of this also comes down to the philosophical debate over realism vs nominalism and essentialism vs anti-essentialism
As a mathematics student, "fuzzy Venn diagram with boundaries somewhere" reminds me way too much of the separation axioms for topological spaces. (The list and images here describe them: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_axiom#Preliminary_definitions.) Specifically, the ideas of "separating by neighborhoods" and "separating by a continuous function" correspond exactly to that fuzzy Venn diagram idea. You've got some set of meanings that you believe a given word definitely does refer to and a set of meanings you believe the word definitely doesn't refer to. Defining a continuous function separating those two sets of meanings is like describing how fuzzy the Venn diagram is at every point, such that the two sets of meanings are unambiguously respectively part of the domain of the word, and not part of the domain of the word. Where linguistics then looks at what you could use this idea of a "fuzzy domain" for in the field of semantics by using specific fuzzy domains when analyzing words, mathematics instead looks at how you can use the concept to describe how "natural", in a sense, abstractions of 1d, 2d, 3d, etc. spaces are by considering whether or not it's possible to distinguish various kinds of sets from one another using such fuzzy domains. Funny how those two concepts are vaguely related.
I don't think "I Am a Teacher: Super Mario Sweater" really contains any of the features of a video game though. It's far closer to a digital Lego instruction book than it is to any video game. You input the things you want to know and it tells you things. If I look up online instructions of how to build a Lego set and then I put that set together does that make it a video game? Surely not.
fun fact about your set theory chapter, in a relatively recent nintendo switch news article about super mario games available on switch (like september 2023) it includes yoshis island and says "Note: Is this a Mario game or a Yoshi game? Perhaps it's both!"
not that the people who make the switch news articles are the official source, but definitely shows they could agree that games can be part of multiple series at once
also note that this list did not contain other games people would normally classify as spinoffs, no sports mario karts parties, but did include super mario all stars and super mario world (sp) the special nso version of mario world that gives you cheats or whatever (and probably the other sp's of main games i only have a screenshot of the snes section)
so just the thinking used to make this article is a little interesting
@@B0ssguy It had run, a game i've seen a lot of people say is a spin-pff
@@magolor-3100 we are not talking about the same thing, im talking about an article on the nintendo switch news app on your switch. i know it didn't include run because run isn't available on switch and it was an article about mario games on switch
@@B0ssguy we're talking about the same article. It also had an image with run in it
@@magolor-3100 that doesn't even make sense
WHERE IS THE SPEEDRUN COMMUNITY FOR SUPER MARIO SWEATER??
SUPER MARIO SWEATER FOR NEXT GDQ!
I want someone to make a documentary, that's at least an hour long, about the history of I am a Teacher: Super Mario Sweater speedrunning.
My mom and grandmother could both be serious competitors :O
I unironically want this. What are the best measurements and character sprite for the fastest sweater? What are the optimal knitting tool to compete on a high level? I genuinely want to know
@@Ryann9 get SummoningSalt on the horn
"but it's important to remember you can't analyze paratext in the same way you analyze text without jumping on it first to remove the wings"
Yup, Misali's a linguistics fan alright. That wordsmithing is in-SANE.
I didn't notice that there were two chapter 2s so seeing the combined gut punch of "chapter land" "I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater" had me laughing throughout the entire first half of the segment. I personally think this is your funniest video yet
There were also two chapter 1s (with the second 1 being exclusively for the Game and Watch)
no, but like, seriously, what do you MEAN doctor mario has a daughter who's a catgirl!?!?
He WHAT
-came here to learn more about what people counted as a super mario game
-left learning what to expect when conducting an online survey.
This was the most comprehensive simultaneous answer and non-answer I have ever watched in my life. Thank you.
halfway through and i'm obsessed with how this mario video has turned into socrates holding up a plucked chicken and proclaiming "BEHOLD, A MAN"
He's cold without his feathers. Knit him a sweater.
wasn't that diogenes
Diogenes. But yes.
@@m__y-t-sWho are you? A teacher?
@@mrbartinio I am a teacher.
1:54:24 Erm, that's aksually exiting "stage-left", since stage directions are from the perspective of the performers. It's "house-right" from the perspective of the audience.
Obsessed with the person who included every game except 3d world
i was thinking he should've done every game except super mario bros (nes) but randomly picking 3d world as the only game that isn't a mainline game is just so funny
Yeah fuck 3D World
“FUCK 3D world in particular”
Lotta people still have the grudge from when that game came out. It got a frosty reception on release because at the time the Wii U was floundering, it wasn’t really the next mainline 3D Mario game, and there had just been so much Mario during the Wii, DS, and 3DS lifespans.
He had to include I am a Teacher: Super mario Sweater, and that is dedication right there
I'm just glad someone has finally pointed out the clunky localization of "The Super Mario Brothers Wonder Game for the Nintendo Switch System"
Jan misali jokes are like when an anime character swings their sword and then sheaths it. you don't get it until it's too late
Fantastic simile
That 'Super Mario Didn't Start The Fire' segment went way harder then it had any right to be
Yeah, can we have a full version of that?
If you mean the one at 0:43 it’s on their channel called “how do we know what’s mainline”
@@alaeriia01it already exists and is amazing!
the ending remix went crazy too
Gave me Scott the Woz specials vibe in the best way
Listening to jan Misali get mad at people who didn't consider the sweater one to be a video game while I didn't even consider the Game and Watch games to be video games was a fun experience
I'm proud to announce that you were on my top five gaming TH-camrs, and I Am a Teacher: Super Mario No Sweater was my second most watched games
A significant point towards the end of the first How Many Super Mario Games Are There was Misali saying “I explicitly don’t want this to just turn into a list of every single mario game”; and then he reversed and came out swinging with “okay you know what, IS every single mario game a super mario game?? what are video games, even????”
I’m a bit over halfway through the video, and I’m convinced they’re gonna bring up the possibility that a dream about Mario could be an official super Mario game.
possibility? that's just Super Mario Bros 2
Miyamoto wakes up and says "Write that down!"
In the first video, someone brought up that a game called “Speedster Comets” based off of the conditions of Speedster Comets in the Galaxy games counts as a mainline Super Mario game.
dear lord a 2 hour jan misali video
goodbye productivity
I didn't notice the two hour runtime until after seeing this comment...
Vids like these are meant to be listened to while doing something productive
Goodbye sleep
I agree with@@Mewtic2because I tend to look for long videos like this for when I'm working. (I'm a programmer, and it's very very boring unless I'm listening to something.)
@@Mewtic2no. i will not be sleeping.
By that definition of "video game" an ebook would also be considered a video game, which is not true. As well as the possibilities of applications like calenders or calculators if a person finds it "entertaining." I feel like you can come up with a more comprehensive and accurate definition than just screen + touch + fun = video game.
mario calculator is very arguably a video game, and visual novels are often described as ebooks.
and besides that, why do you automatically assume ebooks and calendars and calculators aren't video games? if someone interacts with them the same way they do a video game, and they have the same level of enjoyment as a video game, what makes it not a video game?
@@quantumwillow2734I mean, is "video game" a status neutral category or do you think it's above/below the adjacent or overlapping ebook and visual novel categories? do instances of works that people agree are both video games which and ebooks prove that all ebooks must be video games? is the definition of a category also an accurate description of every instance of its contents, or do shades of prototypicality and gradations of category-type-ness come into play?
also, I don't think a calculator is a type of game, under most circumstances. books can contain or be games in various ways, whether video or not, but calculators rarely have gameplay
this whole video (and subsequently this comment) brings up my favorite arguments people make about defining socially constructed, ambiguous concepts. like trying to define a chair without excluding anything which is generally considered a seat, like a couch, while also not including things like a horse, which is sat on and has four legs
Personally, I just take them as challenges, because there are ways to define a chair that is not just “a couch that is alone”, “things that can be sat on”, or “a horse”, but you need so much definitions.
yeah lmao, would a dvd interactive menu count as a video game
1:21 Actually is should be said, "The Super Mario Brothers Wonder Game for the Nintendo Switch *Family* of systems"
my only note at the end of this two-hour video was, “that was it?”
it’s amazing to watch somebody build their magnum opus in real time. i thoroughly enjoyed experiencing and being a small part of this process every step of the way. this is a brilliant work.
for what it’s worth, i was part of the small cohort of responders to the 2021 survey who did select the modal response of eighteen games. i don’t think i put much thought into it at the time, but the more i have learned about this question the more set i am in that opinion. with the release of Super Mario Bros. Wonder, there are nineteen Super Mario games.
i believe that within the linguistic framing of the question, nineteen is the most correct answer, or at least, the least incorrect answer. the data provided in this survey combined with the general usage by mario fans leads me to believe that when somebody colloquially refers to “the mario games”, that that particular set of nineteen games is closest to what they are generally referring to.
but that isn’t a super interesting answer (and is thus excluded from the list of Super Mario games by the “super in title” criteria). the meat of the question is in why those nineteen games are generally considered to be the main super mario titles and not any of the others, which is of course why this video spends the majority of its runtime attempting to build possible answers to the mathematical framing of the question. it would be more satisfying and feel more legitimate if there were a clean set of testable criteria that one could throw any object into and unambiguously determine whether it was part of the Super Mario series. i don’t think that’s really possible to do with this text/paratext analysis.
obviously Super Mario Bros. Special, the VS arcade game, All Night Nippon, and (Game & Watch) are not mainline Super Mario games. nobody would ever think of these games standing alongside the nineteen well-known classics and hits. but that’s hard to justify through analysis of the text and paratext themselves. if somebody with no context was locked in a room with nothing but the means to play the 358 games listed in the survey and all paratext of the franchise and were asked determine which games should be included as part of “Super Mario Bros. and all of its direct sequels”, they could very well see no difference between the way Special and VS build off of Super Mario Bros. and the way Lost Levels does it. the difference, bluntly, is that nobody has ever heard of them. i didn’t include those games when i originally responded because i had no idea what they were referring to. they might fulfill any criteria you could muster to determine a mainline Super Mario game, but if i am invited to “play some super mario” and am subsequently handed Super Mario Bros. (Game & Watch), i am going to be annoyed. i don’t think trying to find a specific filter that sorts games by their text and paratext alone is a useful approach, because nobody thinks about games in a vacuum. Special, VS, All Night Nippon, and (Game & Watch) will always exist in my mind as “those old weird ones” and nothing about the games themselves affects that.
nineteen. final answer. what an endlessly fascinating question. it illuminates so much about the fuzzy definitions of words. an incredible journey and a brilliant, brilliant video.
Ok but I will die on the hill of Run and the Maker games being mainline
@@Hewer86 Just curious, will you still consider Run mainline if and when the servers go down? Meaning that one day there will just be a permanently unplayable mainline Super Mario game?
@@KyletheReflectionist Not a bad question, but my answer is still yes. Even if the game no longer existed, that doesn't mean its existence never happened. If every NES (and like every other Nintendo console in existence) suddenly blew up and Super Mario Bros. 1 became entirely unplayable the world over, it still wouldn't stop being a mainline Super Mario game. If you really wanna get technical every video game will become completely unplayable eventually
@@Hewer86 Fair enough. I can't say I really agree, but I understand and respect the logic. I'm definitely part of the group he joked about in the video that doesn't consider mobile games real games for this reason. If a game is made to be a timeless experience (as timeless as a game can be), then I respect it. If it's made with a shelf life from the beginning, I don't think of it as a real game, personally.
@@KyletheReflectionist from there I guess you can make the argument that one could make a live service game without an end in sight, planning to keep it running for the foreseeable future (which kinda seems to be the current state of Mario Run). Sure there's the knowledge that eventually it's gonna have to die, but as I said, eventually every game ever will die. Ultimately I don't think the intent of whether the game's life will be long or short changes whether it is a game
Also, do you consider Super Mario Bros. 35 to be (or have been) a video game? What about games that heavily featured online functionality that eventually and inevitably gets shut down? Did Super Mario Maker stop being a video game on 8th April? Was it never a video game?
1:09:23
ACTUALLY,
WarioWare Inc is a studio under Nintendo, in-universe.
As we see in the first game, Wario's business card lists the official Nintendo website on it.
Since Wario had already been featured in many Nintendo games, I'm guessing the in-universe Nintendo struck a deal with him to let him make his own games.
9-Volt making Nintendo microgames would be no different than the devs of WarioWare in the real world making microgames based on Nintendo.
wario put the nintendo website on his business card illegally too. he's also infringing nintendo's copyright by being wario
@@HBMmasterYou know what having his very existence be copyright infringement feel very in character for Wario since he is not only greedy, but also an in universe "rip-off" of Mario in a way
@@HBMmaster The idea of in-universe Nintendo being the opposite of real Nintendo-- so lax that they let anybody use and resell their games --is pretty funny
@@HBMmaster Wario’s blog on the WarioWare: Smooth Moves website directly implies that Nintendo has an official partnership with Wario and release his games on their platforms in the Mario World too.
“For you Wario blog lovers out there, I have a good news for you today! I've got another game coming out! It's called "[WarioWare: Smooth Moves]"! The guys at Nintendo went out of their way to make a console called "Wii" for this software! If you buy this "Wii" and "[WarioWare: Smooth Moves]", you too can learn some nice Forms without even leaving your house! Good for you!”
I would say they probably didn’t make the Wii specifically for Wario’s game (though I’m sure Wario believes they did), but it’s clear there’s some official level of collaboration there.
Ah, so that's how the Prince of the Koopas has a Nintendo Switch.
I Am A Teacher: Super Mario Sweater isn't a video game because it isn't for entertainment, it's just instructions to do something else for entertainment
THANK YOU
And on the same way you could exclude RPGs, kart games and party games, you could just exclude anything related to knitting really
I think one reason people might count intuitively count Super Mario 64 but not most of the other 3D games is more about identity and legacy rather than some kind of strict definition. 64 is very much set in the "established" world of Mario, and builds directly on what the 2D games created, in a way that carries forwards to other titles. Games like Galaxy and Odyssey are absolutely still building on recognisable elements from the game, but they bring new elements to the table (eg the space theme and Rosalina in the case of Galaxy) that give them their own distinct identity that you would not expect to appear in future Mario titles unless they're specifically either Galaxy or Odyssey sequels. That probably prompts some people to regard them as their own spinoff series, since they have their own brand identity distinct from that of the original Super Mario Bros series.
also a MASSIVE chunk of elements introduced in 64 were reused in new soup DS (and then about 2/3 of them trickled into a future new soup) because mooching off of SM64DS assets was mid-2000s nintendo's favorite hobby
Rosalina did make it into 3D World at least.
I think a lot of “super in the title” based definitions could be fixed by adding “that I heard of before this survey“ as a qualifier
I kind of love the idea of explicitly adding "that I know of right now" to the definition of franchise games.
super mario kart is a super mario game
That would make it useless as a definition, though, since it requires reference to the state of your mind at a specific point in time. You can't put that in a dictionary and expect anyone else picking it up to generate the same list.
@@Duiker36 Although the mathematician would definitely agree with you, my comment was intended to be more satisfying for the linguist, trying to understand how one individual person chooses what category to put a given game into. Also, as jan Misali spends a lot of time going over, any definition based on the title is mathematically useless anyway.
As someone who loved the first mainline entry in this video series, this one really hit it out of the park! I wish I could say I enjoyed watching it as much as you've clearly enjoyed making it.
Anyway, I've got to get back to practicing my "I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater" speedruns. That marathon isn't gonna complete itself!
There's the world record, and then there's the world record without poking yourself with a needle.
@@Duiker36Would poking yourself with a needle to go faster count as damage boosting?
given your lack of given definition of the series this video is part of, I prefer to think that you are referring to the video "8472 on piano"
@@planetyeo Close guess, but I'm actually referring to "twotrückung," as Mario's muscles involuntarily move whenever the player directly controls him
The sweater thing isn’t a vidoegame
Though it uses an interactive digital element, it is not a videogame, as that digital element and it’s interactivity is not the primary focus, as it is primarily an educational software meant to teach you a thing separate, and though its interactive, it lacks the level of interactiveity required to be a videogame. Google docs is infinitely more a videogame than it.
Simarlily, if we are to count the sweater thing as a game, then the physical dvd release of Disney’s Ratatouille movie is a video game. It is a piece of software with a level of interactivity with entertainment as a primary purpose (there is a menu you navigate through to select to watch a movie, use bonus features, etc)
I hope you do not think that google docs and the physical dvd release of Disney’s ratatouille film are video games.
Diogenes: [holds up "I am a teacher: Super Mario Sweater"] Behold, a mainline Super Mario game!
You say Chef is the only time a baby Yoshi has hatched from an egg laid by an adult Yoshi, but you forget - it actually happened before that in "Egg" in Game & Watch Gallery 3!
oh i didnt know that happened in egg! im not good enough at modern egg to have ever gotten that far lol. Chef did come before Egg tho, since a version of it was also in Game and Watch Gallery 2.
@@appointmenteer I love the sentence "I'm not good enough at modern egg"
@@ArshadZahid_nohandleideas just cant handle the chickens modern sensibilities
@@appointmenteeri love the idea of calling game and watch gallery remakes modern and classic like sonic.
I guess this can qualify as one last top post.
I always assumed everyone thought as you did in your "Super Mario Set Theory" concept. I was actually surprised when you assumed that putting Warioland in the mainline Super Mario series meant that all its sequels were in there, too.
I think this may be the the most interesting thing I learned from the video--and that is saying something. I very much enjoyed this video and learned from it.
It finally explains to me why people don't consider Yoshi's Island part of the Mario series, despite explicitly being said to be a sequel to Super Mario World. If they feel that means they must include every other Yoshi platformer, no wonder they leave it off.
And it's not a problem at all, because, if I'm looking for a particular series, then I don't care about the overlapping series. If I'm looking at the Super Mario games, I don't care about the Warioland games. Same if I'm picking the Mario Land games . I will just go down a single line of the tree.
In fact, that's the whole point of doing it this way. Games can be in more than one series in the same way that you can classify people by, say, height and hair color. If I pick all the people with red hair, I don't have to worry about the people without red hair who are the same height as one of the redheads. They aren't redheads. They don't count.
Same here! Like, in my mind series aren’t mutually exclusive, so I always thought that some games that inspired their own series are part of the Super Mario series AS WELL AS being the beginning of their own series.
Perhaps we shouldn't think of it as an all in one "Mario Series" or just the 2 "Mario" and "Super Mario" distinctions. Rather a series and subset of series, each layer more canon than the last.
There is the "world of Mario" series, this includes everything that takes place even tangentially in the Mario universe; including the DK, Wario, and Yoshi series. This may not include art games like Mario Sweater or color books, as they don't explicitly take place in the universe, only depicting it technically, but I couldn't print out artwork of a game and claim it to be a new entry in the series. However, Super Mario Picross may actually count as it does have cutscenes depicting the characters in their world acknowledging the events of the game (well, its all in Japanese so I don't know what they are actually saying, but the game is _IN_ universe regardless).
Then there is the "Mario" Series specifically, This is the second layer under the "world of Mario" and is the games focused directly on the Mario side of things. Games like Wario Land and Yoshi's Island can be seen as bridges between the layers as they exist as both a Mario focused game, but also broadened out enough that their sequels no longer are. This is also where the spinoffs like Kart and Party and the RPGs reside. They take place in the Mario world but aren't technically canon. The Kart games could be seen as the "Mario Characters" in their own personal life off-stage, but they never break Kayfabe sort of thing. While the RPG games are their own storylines and canon, like the characters are actors that play multiple roles in different franchises.
At the base of it all is the "SUPER Mario" series, the one that started it all and is the most mainline and canon ones. Obviously we may not all agree on which ones actually count. But it should be clear enough the distinction between this and the first 2 layers. The 3D games should count as they are still part of it, but if you are someone who truly thinks there is a separation between those and the "true Mario" games, then we could extend to another 4th layer which is the "platformer Super Mario" series (which is just the title and not a desciption to be clear, as other games that are called Super Mario and have platforming in them don't belong, this is just the layer for the most purest Canon games: 1, 2, usa, 3, World, Wonder for example). As for rereleases and such, I think that is up for interpretation if they should be in layer 2 or this one. Personally I think 64 DS is a "new" game as it does have a revised story and enough new elements to make it a "separate" game by technicality. But NSMBU Deluxe is just a rerelease with nothing so substantial added to make it a distinct entry canonically. So I could see that being kept in layer 2, as its not a separate entry in the series so isn't in itself canon, but the original is and its just a rerelease so its up to you what layer they belong to.
Maybe this setup would make things a bit easier to classify? Obviously some changes would be changed or added over time to make it work better. But its a decent start?