i think there is a large misconception of what 'wetting out' means. if i understood what you meant by it in this video when you said something along the lines of 'since it has a 30kmm rating, it wont wet out on you'. wet out has almost nothing to do with the waterproof membrane. it is when the protective layer, usually nylon, above whatever membrane becomes saturated. in other words, it is a soggy layer of fabric on top of the waterproof layer. however, the membrane won't leak, no liquid water will pass through the waterproof layer. the waterproof layer is waterproof at all pressures under whatever it fails at. an illustration of a wet out would be imagine you were wearing a plastic poncho and then decided, for reasons, to put a cotton t shirt over it so the cotton t shirt would be the outermost layer. the rain would obviously soak that t shirt, but no water would leak from the t shirt to you because of the waterproof layer. however, it will feel wet while you are wearing it because it is saturated so it will be heavier and cooler because of evaporation. however, no liquid water passes through. a wet out isn't a leak. the reason manufacturers apply a 'dwr' finish to the outside of the jacket, is not to waterproof the jacket, as most people assume, but to cause water to bead on the outside layer to prevent it from becoming saturated and therefore feeling wet and stopping the breathability aspect of the membrane, which may cause actual wetness under the saturated portion.
theres some truth to what you are saying vs what people report. That said wetting out does also mean finding a way in...where there are visible cold wet spots on the lining. It was easy to spot on my frogg toggs (bad example I know) but on my next test Im taking out my budget type marmot - it does have the taped lining and I did just add two coats of non-waterbased DWR (3M). Its funny that other guys are saying they returned them for other warranty issues and the replacements are flat out leaking. This is still unsettled for me.
@@nedanother9382 Thank you for adding that. You're obviously correct. I was speaking in very general terms and in doing so, i pretty much was wrong to say what i was saying about the membrane not being able to leak. You clarified the issue. And that is a bummer to hear about the issues. More and more it seems as though things that used to be considered quality are no longer so and the options keep narrowing to practically nothing. I've been hearing terrible things about arc'teryx recently.
I'm not sure this question is settled. The Versalite uses the now rebranded Goretex Infinium membrane which Goretex itself says is NOT a waterproof membrane. So how is the jacket waterproof? If it's only or mainly based on DWR surely it can only ever be water resistant? not water proof
I did the Juan de Fula Trail in pouring rain with this jacket and the pants. Not a drop touched me. My backpack wore a couple slits in the pants from rubbing, but other than being a bit weak the gear is awesome. It’s crazy light and packable. Worth it for me for sure. It ain’t waxed canvas for durability, but it’s deadly gear.
Hey Bungzy, I love your channel. Very informative content with no filler. Your tips and advice is at least as good as some of the most popular backpacking channels on TH-cam if not better. Keep the excellent content coming. Thanks!
Thank you for this review. I did see your video about the Virsalite and based off of that and some other reviews, I ordered the jacket and am waiting for it to get to me. So seeing this video today gave me even more confidence that I made the ride decision with the jacket. Thanks for the videos, please keep em coming!
Just got my Versalite and I tell even without a drop of rain it’s going to be one of my favorite pieces of gear. Fully featured, extremely well made, and only 6.5 oz. Shipping direct from the company was free and FAST.
I actually got the storm cruiser with gore c-knit. Pit zips and proper storm worthy proofing. For a mere 4 oz penalty it’s imo the better choice especially cause it’s always on sale. The next to skin feel is night and day when compared to my old versalite. I used similar logic when purchasing the alpine 1000. Features vs weight.
More often than not I actually only bring the melly and storm cruiser and omit the down jacket as it covers virtually all but the coldest temps with comfort. (Majority of the PCT).
Hi, I just ordered a Storm Cruiser and am looking at the Versalite for its better breathability and lighter weight. How do these two jackets compare in your experience? Can you tell me which one's more breathable and durable? My main concern in a hard shell is the breathability and durability. Thanks.
@@undefined624 I hiked the PCT last year and for roughly 75% of the trail had no Down Jacket and for 40% of the trail no fleece. Had the Storm Cruiser 100% of the time and it was great (used a ton). I also hiked virtually the entire state of Oregon in that jacket due to mosquitoes and was fine. A little sweaty but perfectly fine. This is where the c-knit I think was worth its weight in gold compared to the feeling of the versalite against the skin. The storm cruiser imo is just more versatile where as the Versalite i'd really only use for quick fast and light options, or when it's super hot. If you are carrying a fleece and down jacket like most other "lightweight" folks then you don't need a storm cruiser.. YMMV
@@ColoradoGooner Thanks for the reply! After reading your comments, I think I would have to try both and put them into test to find out what really suits my needs. Thanks again.
The real reason why it is listed as water resistant instead of waterproof is that it relies on a DWR coating to keep out moisture. Wearing a backpack, stuffing it repeatedly into the pack and taking it out and abrasion against branches and rocks can, over time, degrade this coating. Heavier let's say gore tex garments have a DWR coating on the outermost ffabric plus a membrane underneath, which both in conjunction aid to keep water out. In ultralight garments however, the focus is on weight, thus they often rely on only the coating. If this coating rubs off, there's a lot of after market products like the ones from nikwax, whcih can restore it again.
Thank you. This video was helpful. Comparing the Versalite with its 2L Gore Windstopper and 3L Gore-Tex or in-house 3L jackets e.g. Polartec Neoshell or Montbell Dry-Tec, would the Versalite be more breathable and less durable than those 3L jackets? My main concern in a hard shell is durability and breathability. I could care less about waterproofness, since that of the Versalite is adequate to me. I ordered a Storm Cruiser already, but the lighter and seemingly more breathable Versalite is quite tempting. Thanks!
Goretex materials are breathable which means at a certain water pressure, the water will permeate through the layer because the material is porous. But that doesn't mean you will get wet using the jacket under the normal circumstances. I'm surprised that you get upset when a company gives you a specific figure used to measure the performance of the product.
Breathability and hydrostatic specs are crucial. Especially breathability. Otherwise, manufacturer's simply try to out-market the others? Now someone needs to make a "hand" spec? A "clamminess" spec? Because when fabric sticks to skin, it doesn't breathe. It also doesn't breathe if the outer layer wets-out, because the vapor can't get past the liquid layer of wetted-out fabric? Montbell's "Peak-Dry" has an amazing and industry-leading 84k breathability spec, but doesn't abraid well, so no backpacks. Deserves a review anyway? EE has a 75k shell, but it's clammy-sticky inside, thus blocking much of that incredible breathability?
Going to think about it...it’s still too expensive for me. Sigh. Any clothing or equipment that doesn’t do EXACTLY what’s it’s supposed to do, isn’t worth the money. I’ll let you know what I decide. Thanks for the as always, thorough review. 🌿
Really good reviews, I saw both. My concern is durability. I’ve had breathable shells in the past but the waterproof laminate on the inside broke down in a few years making the shell useless. I had a HH, 2 marmot pre sips and a north face. Thoughts on the m bell. I currently have an arkterex with Gortex that I haven’t used yet. It’ll keep me dry but will it breathe?
I've never had a jacket delaminate on the inside before the outer layer before. Typically I get about 2 years out of an "ultralight" shell before the DWR wears out on the shoulders, hips, and cuffs, (due to higher wear from pack straps/belt and brushing against stuff with the cuffs, wearing gloves, etc). I get another year or so out of refreshing the DWR with aftermarket wash-in products and presumably you could keep applying the DWR every few trips indefinitely. The wash-in stuff is never as good as when the jacket is new, and I end up replacing the jacket and passing my old jacket on to someone who is only going to use it to get to their car in the rain, at a sporting event, etc. Technical shells, (the expensive, expedition level, typically 14oz+ stuff) last at least 5 years or more, (most likely because I am using them far less) again with the outer layer DWR wearing off and having to be refreshed. I spend about 50 nights outside a year, with a couple mountaineering trips and lots of winter hiking where I'm wearing the jacket as my outermost layer pretty much 24-7. My work is seasonal and I have a lot more time off in the winter. Which Arkteryx jacket do you have? The Alpha and Beta series I would classify as technical shells, especially the SV line. They would be superb for a sub 40F shell and the newer goretex membranes breathe very well for what they are designed to do. You're not going to find a jacket that breathes well enough to be totally comfortable in 60+F with high humidity while you're exerting yourself, it's about finding a balance and wearing the appropriate gear for the conditions you're likely to encounter. The versalite weighs 1/3 as much as a technical 3-layer jacket, the membrane is very breathable, and has pit-zips. It is a 2-layer design, which means that the interior breathable waterproof membrane is in direct contact with you and therefore less durable than a 3-layer jacket which has the breathable membrane sandwiched between 2 layers of nylon coated with DWR. The versalite is the jacket I'd grab for a late spring through early fall hike where I just need a jacket "in case". In the late fall through early spring where the consequences of getting wet are much more severe, and the likelihood of wearing the jacket all day to cut the wind and keep in some warmth is much higher I'd take a heavier, 3-layer jacket. Below 40F breathability is still nice, especially if you're climbing/mountaineering and exerting yourself, but it's definitely a secondary concern. You can always take a rest and cool off, you *must* not get wet or you're in for a horrible night of little rest at minimum if not a cold weather injury.
Nathaniel Kerns Thanks for your informed input. I ended up returning the the ark terex. I now have an enlightened equipment visp. It’s new and works well for the time being. We’ll see how it holds up.
Thanks for the excellent review!! Can you tell us what size you ordered ...and how it ended up fitting (athletic or loose) If you could tell us your height /weight for reference that would help a lot Cheers
argh! maybe it could be just YOUR poor understanding, not poor translation, mis-marketing, or Montbell's legal. The primary issue in decyphering waterproof, water resistance, and water repellency is that there is no requirement for testing corresponding to labeling for garments like there is for closed products, for example, like electronics or watches. There are ATSM, JIS, European ISO, US ISO testing standards to measure waterproofness/water resistance, but there aren't any legal mandates to differentiate--that is, you don't have an IP/IPX labeling like requirement for garments. So, waterproof can range from 1500mm+ hydrostatic head (HH) testing in the lab (not real world). Realistically, even gore-tex pro 3L isn't necessarily waterproof say compared to a PU jacket, since gore-tex membrane has pores and PU does not. Yes, Gore-tex markets Infinium as their windproof membrane replacing their windstopper logo, with water resistence. In general Infinium clothes aren't seam taped, so they are susceptible to water penetration through the stitching. The membrane itself combined with being laminated to whatever nylon or fabric with tape seams makes it waterproof up to whatever HH pressure.
Is the versalite rainproof? From the title, I’d expect you to just film yourself with the jacket in the rain or in the shower. Perhaps in shower with sped up video. And then show how the jacket is on the inside and maybe compare with other jackets. That’s how to answer the question of whether the jacket is really waterproof… put it under water! Like asking if a knife can cut a tomato… just show a video of the knife succeeding at, or failing to, cut a tomato!
Dude, don't blame Montbell because you can't be bothered to read. You're trying to make a scandal out of this, but it tells you on the website what the jacket's degree of "water proofness" is. Also, since when is any jacket TRULY water proof that isn't made out of rubber or garbage bag plastic? I've never heard of such a thing. If a jacket can breathe, it has a breaking point as far as keeping water out is concerned. Are you even a hiker? You don't seem to be.
i think there is a large misconception of what 'wetting out' means. if i understood what you meant by it in this video when you said something along the lines of 'since it has a 30kmm rating, it wont wet out on you'. wet out has almost nothing to do with the waterproof membrane. it is when the protective layer, usually nylon, above whatever membrane becomes saturated. in other words, it is a soggy layer of fabric on top of the waterproof layer. however, the membrane won't leak, no liquid water will pass through the waterproof layer. the waterproof layer is waterproof at all pressures under whatever it fails at. an illustration of a wet out would be imagine you were wearing a plastic poncho and then decided, for reasons, to put a cotton t shirt over it so the cotton t shirt would be the outermost layer. the rain would obviously soak that t shirt, but no water would leak from the t shirt to you because of the waterproof layer. however, it will feel wet while you are wearing it because it is saturated so it will be heavier and cooler because of evaporation. however, no liquid water passes through. a wet out isn't a leak. the reason manufacturers apply a 'dwr' finish to the outside of the jacket, is not to waterproof the jacket, as most people assume, but to cause water to bead on the outside layer to prevent it from becoming saturated and therefore feeling wet and stopping the breathability aspect of the membrane, which may cause actual wetness under the saturated portion.
theres some truth to what you are saying vs what people report. That said wetting out does also mean finding a way in...where there are visible cold wet spots on the lining. It was easy to spot on my frogg toggs (bad example I know) but on my next test Im taking out my budget type marmot - it does have the taped lining and I did just add two coats of non-waterbased DWR (3M). Its funny that other guys are saying they returned them for other warranty issues and the replacements are flat out leaking. This is still unsettled for me.
@@nedanother9382 Thank you for adding that. You're obviously correct. I was speaking in very general terms and in doing so, i pretty much was wrong to say what i was saying about the membrane not being able to leak. You clarified the issue. And that is a bummer to hear about the issues. More and more it seems as though things that used to be considered quality are no longer so and the options keep narrowing to practically nothing. I've been hearing terrible things about arc'teryx recently.
I'm not sure this question is settled. The Versalite uses the now rebranded Goretex Infinium membrane which Goretex itself says is NOT a waterproof membrane. So how is the jacket waterproof? If it's only or mainly based on DWR surely it can only ever be water resistant? not water proof
I did the Juan de Fula Trail in pouring rain with this jacket and the pants. Not a drop touched me. My backpack wore a couple slits in the pants from rubbing, but other than being a bit weak the gear is awesome. It’s crazy light and packable. Worth it for me for sure. It ain’t waxed canvas for durability, but it’s deadly gear.
Hey Bungzy, I love your channel. Very informative content with no filler. Your tips and advice is at least as good as some of the most popular backpacking channels on TH-cam if not better. Keep the excellent content coming. Thanks!
hydrostatic is a standard statistic in describing waterproof in most english and European web sites
Thank you for this review. I did see your video about the Virsalite and based off of that and some other reviews, I ordered the jacket and am waiting for it to get to me. So seeing this video today gave me even more confidence that I made the ride decision with the jacket. Thanks for the videos, please keep em coming!
Just got my Versalite and I tell even without a drop of rain it’s going to be one of my favorite pieces of gear. Fully featured, extremely well made, and only 6.5 oz. Shipping direct from the company was free and FAST.
I actually got the storm cruiser with gore c-knit. Pit zips and proper storm worthy proofing. For a mere 4 oz penalty it’s imo the better choice especially cause it’s always on sale. The next to skin feel is night and day when compared to my old versalite. I used similar logic when purchasing the alpine 1000. Features vs weight.
More often than not I actually only bring the melly and storm cruiser and omit the down jacket as it covers virtually all but the coldest temps with comfort. (Majority of the PCT).
Hi, I just ordered a Storm Cruiser and am looking at the Versalite for its better breathability and lighter weight. How do these two jackets compare in your experience? Can you tell me which one's more breathable and durable?
My main concern in a hard shell is the breathability and durability. Thanks.
@@undefined624 I hiked the PCT last year and for roughly 75% of the trail had no Down Jacket and for 40% of the trail no fleece. Had the Storm Cruiser 100% of the time and it was great (used a ton). I also hiked virtually the entire state of Oregon in that jacket due to mosquitoes and was fine. A little sweaty but perfectly fine. This is where the c-knit I think was worth its weight in gold compared to the feeling of the versalite against the skin. The storm cruiser imo is just more versatile where as the Versalite i'd really only use for quick fast and light options, or when it's super hot. If you are carrying a fleece and down jacket like most other "lightweight" folks then you don't need a storm cruiser.. YMMV
@@ColoradoGooner Thanks for the reply! After reading your comments, I think I would have to try both and put them into test to find out what really suits my needs. Thanks again.
Best gear reviews on TH-cam! Thank you for the excellent content.
I remember learning about hydrostatic head pressure for the first time. Joy!
Good info Bungzy!! Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for the review.
Would you still consider? What are your thoughts compared to EE Visp?
The real reason why it is listed as water resistant instead of waterproof is that it relies on a DWR coating to keep out moisture. Wearing a backpack, stuffing it repeatedly into the pack and taking it out and abrasion against branches and rocks can, over time, degrade this coating. Heavier let's say gore tex garments have a DWR coating on the outermost ffabric plus a membrane underneath, which both in conjunction aid to keep water out.
In ultralight garments however, the focus is on weight, thus they often rely on only the coating. If this coating rubs off, there's a lot of after market products like the ones from nikwax, whcih can restore it again.
Thank you. This video was helpful. Comparing the Versalite with its 2L Gore Windstopper and 3L Gore-Tex or in-house 3L jackets e.g. Polartec Neoshell or Montbell Dry-Tec, would the Versalite be more breathable and less durable than those 3L jackets?
My main concern in a hard shell is durability and breathability. I could care less about waterproofness, since that of the Versalite is adequate to me. I ordered a Storm Cruiser already, but the lighter and seemingly more breathable Versalite is quite tempting. Thanks!
Great thorough explanation ..
Goretex materials are breathable which means at a certain water pressure, the water will permeate through the layer because the material is porous. But that doesn't mean you will get wet using the jacket under the normal circumstances. I'm surprised that you get upset when a company gives you a specific figure used to measure the performance of the product.
Because the windstopper is not rated waterproof by Gore.
One question, how does It feel if directly contact with skin? Thx
Breathability and hydrostatic specs are crucial. Especially breathability. Otherwise, manufacturer's simply try to out-market the others? Now someone needs to make a "hand" spec? A "clamminess" spec? Because when fabric sticks to skin, it doesn't breathe. It also doesn't breathe if the outer layer wets-out, because the vapor can't get past the liquid layer of wetted-out fabric? Montbell's "Peak-Dry" has an amazing and industry-leading 84k breathability spec, but doesn't abraid well, so no backpacks. Deserves a review anyway? EE has a 75k shell, but it's clammy-sticky inside, thus blocking much of that incredible breathability?
great video
Going to think about it...it’s still too expensive for me. Sigh. Any clothing or equipment that doesn’t do EXACTLY what’s it’s supposed to do, isn’t worth the money. I’ll let you know what I decide. Thanks for the as always, thorough review. 🌿
Really good reviews, I saw both. My concern is durability. I’ve had breathable shells in the past but the waterproof laminate on the inside broke down in a few years making the shell useless. I had a HH, 2 marmot pre sips and a north face.
Thoughts on the m bell. I currently have an arkterex with Gortex that I haven’t used yet. It’ll keep me dry but will it breathe?
I've never had a jacket delaminate on the inside before the outer layer before. Typically I get about 2 years out of an "ultralight" shell before the DWR wears out on the shoulders, hips, and cuffs, (due to higher wear from pack straps/belt and brushing against stuff with the cuffs, wearing gloves, etc). I get another year or so out of refreshing the DWR with aftermarket wash-in products and presumably you could keep applying the DWR every few trips indefinitely. The wash-in stuff is never as good as when the jacket is new, and I end up replacing the jacket and passing my old jacket on to someone who is only going to use it to get to their car in the rain, at a sporting event, etc. Technical shells, (the expensive, expedition level, typically 14oz+ stuff) last at least 5 years or more, (most likely because I am using them far less) again with the outer layer DWR wearing off and having to be refreshed. I spend about 50 nights outside a year, with a couple mountaineering trips and lots of winter hiking where I'm wearing the jacket as my outermost layer pretty much 24-7. My work is seasonal and I have a lot more time off in the winter.
Which Arkteryx jacket do you have? The Alpha and Beta series I would classify as technical shells, especially the SV line. They would be superb for a sub 40F shell and the newer goretex membranes breathe very well for what they are designed to do. You're not going to find a jacket that breathes well enough to be totally comfortable in 60+F with high humidity while you're exerting yourself, it's about finding a balance and wearing the appropriate gear for the conditions you're likely to encounter. The versalite weighs 1/3 as much as a technical 3-layer jacket, the membrane is very breathable, and has pit-zips. It is a 2-layer design, which means that the interior breathable waterproof membrane is in direct contact with you and therefore less durable than a 3-layer jacket which has the breathable membrane sandwiched between 2 layers of nylon coated with DWR. The versalite is the jacket I'd grab for a late spring through early fall hike where I just need a jacket "in case". In the late fall through early spring where the consequences of getting wet are much more severe, and the likelihood of wearing the jacket all day to cut the wind and keep in some warmth is much higher I'd take a heavier, 3-layer jacket. Below 40F breathability is still nice, especially if you're climbing/mountaineering and exerting yourself, but it's definitely a secondary concern. You can always take a rest and cool off, you *must* not get wet or you're in for a horrible night of little rest at minimum if not a cold weather injury.
Nathaniel Kerns Thanks for your informed input. I ended up returning the the ark terex. I now have an enlightened equipment visp. It’s new and works well for the time being. We’ll see how it holds up.
Wow. Talkn bout a thorough review! 👍👍👍
Thanks for the excellent review!!
Can you tell us what size you ordered ...and how it ended up fitting (athletic or loose)
If you could tell us your height /weight for reference that would help a lot
Cheers
argh! maybe it could be just YOUR poor understanding, not poor translation, mis-marketing, or Montbell's legal. The primary issue in decyphering waterproof, water resistance, and water repellency is that there is no requirement for testing corresponding to labeling for garments like there is for closed products, for example, like electronics or watches. There are ATSM, JIS, European ISO, US ISO testing standards to measure waterproofness/water resistance, but there aren't any legal mandates to differentiate--that is, you don't have an IP/IPX labeling like requirement for garments. So, waterproof can range from 1500mm+ hydrostatic head (HH) testing in the lab (not real world). Realistically, even gore-tex pro 3L isn't necessarily waterproof say compared to a PU jacket, since gore-tex membrane has pores and PU does not. Yes, Gore-tex markets Infinium as their windproof membrane replacing their windstopper logo, with water resistence. In general Infinium clothes aren't seam taped, so they are susceptible to water penetration through the stitching. The membrane itself combined with being laminated to whatever nylon or fabric with tape seams makes it waterproof up to whatever HH pressure.
It’s helpful 👍🏻
Is the versalite rainproof? From the title, I’d expect you to just film yourself with the jacket in the rain or in the shower. Perhaps in shower with sped up video. And then show how the jacket is on the inside and maybe compare with other jackets. That’s how to answer the question of whether the jacket is really waterproof… put it under water! Like asking if a knife can cut a tomato… just show a video of the knife succeeding at, or failing to, cut a tomato!
a whole video with no proof
Dude, don't blame Montbell because you can't be bothered to read. You're trying to make a scandal out of this, but it tells you on the website what the jacket's degree of "water proofness" is. Also, since when is any jacket TRULY water proof that isn't made out of rubber or garbage bag plastic? I've never heard of such a thing. If a jacket can breathe, it has a breaking point as far as keeping water out is concerned.
Are you even a hiker? You don't seem to be.
The end of the video he says the jacket IS waterproof and says he like the jacket
Hi from Holland