Dragon Age: Inquisition - Varric mourns Loghain
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ธ.ค. 2014
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The man who persecuted Grey Wardens, later gives his life to save them. If irony were strawberries, Thedas would drinking a lot smoothies at this point.
Well he did go through the Joining during Origins, I really found that part ironic as well
And munching on strawberry tarts.
If he survives its even more ironic i'd say. The man who mistrusted Wardens and despised Orlais ends up being the De facto leader of the Orlesian Wardens.
If Loghain becomes a Warden and then sacrifices himself in the Fade, he has one of the best redemption arcs in gaming history.
Damn. Crazy how I could go from hating Loghain and looking forward to killing him at the start of origins to actually been upset about his death. That's some awesome storytelling right there.
"Hey Merril, Loghain died. I know you didn't know him, but y'know. Shit's wack over here yo."
he was my favorate too
Before that Varric says that Hawke asked him to let everyone in Kirkwall know where he was going
And Anora gets a letter saying where the Champion of Kirkwall will be travelling.
That's some heartfelt message right there.
More Like, Hey Merril Loghain dies to save us all, including your precious Hawke.
Loghain is one of those S tier villains.
I'll admit, it took 3 games, and 2 books to do it, but nonetheless.
His story from "The Stolen Throne" to "Inquisition" is a paragon for what a good villain can be.
There should be a war table operation where Anora sends a letter regarding Loghain, if she is still queen in DAI
She's always Queen if you keep Loghain alive. Either alone or married to Alistair.
Right. Forgot about that
Taka Baruna
Still, I agree, it would be nice, or if he'd say something about her, because right now he only ever mentions her if your Warden is married to her.
"Well if we're both standing at the end of this, I'll buy the drinks."
Oh man, Garrus says something eerily similar to this just prior to the final assault in ME3.
Even with all the fuck up loghain did in DA:O it was still sad seeing him die, it just felt such a fitting end for him.
+darksore6 Not gonna lie, the most fitting end for him was seeing Alistair chop that fucker's head off.
Not gonna lie, you Alistair stans are despicable.
+Persephone's Underworld No shit. Loghain did what he did for Ferelden, albeit misguided. Alistair straight up abandons Ferelden and the Wardens if you show honorable mercy to Loghain and offer him a chance at redemption.
I spared Loghain specifically so that her could die at this juncture. For his attempts to hinder one hero he'd die to save two more. It's not a death I'd want, but the other option is to let Hawke die, and my Hawke still has shit to do
The hero of the river Dane will always be remembered.
I love Loghain, he’s such a good character and I love how he returned, when I saw him my second playthrough (Alistair was warden in my first game) I was so happy.
Loghain or Hawke - if Loghain did not die while fighting Archdemon in DAO, then I guess it would be fitting to sacrifice himself in the Fade - I mean, he was a total son of a bitch in DAO but when he became a Warden, he then sought redemption after his initiation and showed remorse for his actions, if he survives killing Archdemon because of the ritual with Morrigan.
I liked Loghain, He was doing what he thought was best for Fereldan, yeah he did it in he worst possible way but he cared for his country, he let his hated for Orlais lead him and that was his downfall
Ya, and the worst part is that he had every right to hate Orlais and mistrust the Wardens after what he had been through. I probably would have done the same at the time, to be honest.
He also sold Ferelden elves into slavery and almost let the southern half of Feredeln fall to darkspawn, showing how much he actually cared about his country next to preserving his own stubbornness and pride.
@@raggedyanimator754 exactly. Don’t even get me started on his hand in the slaughter of the Couslands.
I dont undertand how people can defend Bhalen and Logain. Logain killed his best friends son who was also married to his daughter and was willing to kill his daughter "for the good of the country?" please. Bhalen killed his brother and executes Harrowmant instantly when he is declared king. person that power hungry should never have power. if they can do that to their own family imagine how many people they will kill in coming years just to stay in power.
@@metintatari7148
1) *If Loghain planned to kill Cailan, then how do you explain his attempts to warn Cailan off the battlefield?*
*(Ostagar War Council scene)*
"Loghain, my decision is final. I will stand by the Grey Wardens in this assault."
"You risk too much, Cailan. The darkspawn horde is too dangerous for you to be playing hero on the frontline."
If Loghain wanted to kill Cailan, he would have encouraged him instead. Yet Loghain did the opposite.
*Cailan's death was a consequence of Loghain's desertion, but not the goal.* Loghain aimed to preserve the army because he saw their plan would have failed.
The signal came too late; by the time the beacon was lit, most of the Grey Wardens and the king force would have been dead already. The Hammer and Anvil strategy wouldn't have worked because the "Anvil" had been broken. If Loghain charge in, he would be risking _thousands_ of fresh soldiers just to save _hundreds_ who might be too injured to fight another day.
2) *Loghain never planned to kill Anora; that was a lie fabricated by Anora herself.*
She came to Howe of her own volition, got herself captured and then sent her maid Erlina to ask the Warden assistance - all so she could propose an alliance with Eamon and the Warden without her father knowledge.
If you spare Loghain, he would admit - in his banter with Shale - that he would never kill his own daughter, even if it would secure his victory in the Landsmeet. At this point, Loghain had already lost the Landsmeet and thus had no reason to lie.
On the epilogue of Dragon Age Origin, If morrigan is with no child, her epilogue states that she may be serving the 'Empress' which is later proved in Inquisition.
THEN. we look at Loghain's epilogue if he lives
“Loghain remained with the Grey Wardens, pressed into service as the primary recruiter in Ferelden. He performed diligently for several years, until finally the taint wore too hard on his aged body. After a solemn service with his fellow Wardens, Loghain traveled to Orzammar to take his final march into the Deep Roads.”
HE DIED IN THE DEEP ROADS. O-O So yea. Errr... Idk man, Im betting my money that he lives in the Fade o__o
Majority or DAO epilogues were either retconned or ignored altogether.
Like, in one endings Cullen went crazy, killed several mages and was arrested. Yet he's Knight-Commander in DA2 and Commander of Inquisition in DAI like nothing happened.
@@AlexZebol well, Meredith would like that kind of behaviour anyway
@@brunokingz Not really. She was all about order and discipline.
Plus Cullen's epilogues were already retconned in Witch Hunt DLC, which was loosely setting up DA2 with rather often mentions of Kirkwall (much like Awakening).
Huzzah Forthetimes, actually it says "Hawke told me to tell everyone IN KIRKWALL where he is going."
Most likely in this state Merrill was the romance.
In mine (albeit it wasn't loghain who died) he says he better let Isabela know.
I think this is they way he would have wanted to go.
As a hero.
I chose to keep him alive and let Hawke die mostly because in the epilogue it states that loghain is rebelling against the first Warden and i am very curios about this plot Loghain the one that betrayed the wardens at ostagar then joined them and fought against the fifth blight and against Corypheus deciding to rebel again after seeing how corrupt the wardens are i dunno i like it
It's almost like everyone kinda forgot what he did at Ostagar. I mean, he did end up doing something good in the end (provided he appeared in Inquisition and survived in Origins) but it's like no one noticed that he nearly brought his country to civil war and that he ignored the threat of the blight which alone would've consumed Ferelden had it not been for The Hero.
No one forgot anything, specially himself.
He won the rather short and pointless civil war and him not being aware that dark spawn taint is required to kill the demon dragon is hardly his fault.
He also sold Ferelden elves into slavery. That, everyone does forget.
@@zachdelozier2133 He only wins if the player chooses him, otherwise he's still stuck with half the arls not liking him. As for not knowing about the Grey Warden's necessity for killing the Archdemon. He is a military veteran with plentiful access to historical accounts of major battles. The four previous blights are all some of the most important battles that have ever occurred, and thus would have been some of the most extensively documented. In all four blights, Grey Wardens were absolutely crucial to the defeat of the Archdemon and the Darkspawn. Even in the first blight, when the Tevinter Imperium was at the utmost height of power, and had a military might that would eclipse Ferelden's by leaps and bounds...They were steadily losing until the Grey Wardens got involved. He has absolutely NO REASON to believe that the Grey Wardens are ANYTHING other than COMPLETELY necessary for ending the blight.
Also for the most part he chose NOT to believe that it was a blight, largely because of his own prejudices against Olesians (however justified they were) and how they extended to the Grey Wardens.
@@MrRawrCEO No, he didn't know that a Grey Warden was needed to kill an Archdemon. How could he, when the Grey Wardens kept the Ultimate Sacrifice a secret even from their own recruits? Alistair didn't know until Riordan told him and he had been a Warden for six months prior to DAO.
Also, you forgot that Grey Wardens not only broke their oath of neutrality by rebelling with Sophia Dryden, they also took Maric along on their dangerous expedition to the Deep Roads.
His suspicion was wrong, but not baseless. Why should he trust an organization that tried to kill Ferelden King _twice?_
an elven inquisitor says "_does_ that make him a hero though'
No fucking way I was going to sacrifice Hawke. He still has Isabela and Bethany to take care of.
Mine's worried about Fenris and Carver
As far as I'm concerned, he's living on borrowed time after that crap he pulled in Ostagar. I just called in the debt.
Ostagar was a lost cause. By the time the signal was lit, most of the Grey Wardens and the King's army would have been dead already. The Hammer-and-Anvil strategy would have failed because the "Anvil" had been broken: not enough men to keep the darkspawn occupied. It won't be much of a flank if the horde could focus their full attention to Loghain's force.
Also, he _tried_ to keep Cailan safe but the stupid king ignored his warnings to fight on the frontline.
"Loghain, my decision is final. I will stand by the Grey Wardens in this assault."
"You risk too much, Cailan. The darkspawn horde is too dangerous for you to be playing hero on the frontline."
You could get angry at Loghain for selling the elves or blaming the Wardens, but his action at Ostagar was both morally and strategically correct.
I LIKE LOGHAIN BECAUSE HE IS BADASS SORT OF.
Two Years Later And I Only Have 5 Likes?! You People Are Assholes!
Loghain was an asshole.
@@nicolasperez114 And Calian Was Gonna Sell Ferelden To Orlais, He Was No Saint Either.
@@rinokumura7371 And Why Do You Write Every Single Word Like That? You Don't Have To Use Big Letters If You're Not Beginning A Sentence.
@@jonaszpawlacz756 that just how i write
I know it hurts Varric by leaving Hawke in the Fade but in my mind I personally believe Loghain doesn't deserve to a die a heroic death. Better for him to atone the hard way by helping the Wardens rebuild. Besides if I wanted Loghain to die he wouldn't have lived past the Landsmeet in my playthroughs.
Am I the only one who can't kill Loghain at all?
definitely not. I used to be able to but after conscripting him once I can't see myself ever *not* doing it unless it's for a very specific, character-driven reason. he's just too interesting of a party member--especially his dialogue with Wynne
+Hunter Mayo I can't enjoy Alistair after letting Loghain live. It shows his true nature, and he's much less heroic than people like to say.
no you are not stand tall
(Holy crap, this got really long. Don't mind me.)
Alistair is blinded by what he thought the Grey Wardens were, rather than what they actually are. When you talk to him about how Duncan recruited him, he gets very angry if you suggest that Duncan recruited him for any other reason other than because he was kind. For Alistair, the Grey Wardens are a noble order, and Duncan in particular can do no wrong in his eyes.
This is seen most clearly in his apparent dismissal of Duncan's murder of Ser Jory, for refusing to take the Joining. It didn't matter to him that Jory had a wife and a child on the way; the Wardens were doing what was necessary. More importantly, it was Duncan that did it; the man that saved him from a life of service and lyrium addiction in the Templar Order.
This isn't because he truly accepts the Grey Wardens' willingness to use extreme methods, but rather because he is personally loyal to Duncan. Contrast how he reacts to Ser Jory with how he reacts if you spare Loghain using the same rationale. He's *furious* with you, and disregards the very legitimate rationale behind your decision and the number of lives at stake.
This is because at the end of the day, he was never in the Grey Wardens because he believed in their ideals, but because he saw Duncan as the father that he, an unwanted bastard, never had. Thus, even when he has a senior Grey Warden telling him that there are very compelling reasons why Loghain should be spared to undertake the Joining, Alistair doesn't care. Vengeance, not stopping the Blight, was his primary motivation for bringing down Loghain. I am fully convinced that even if Loghain was willing to cooperate with the Wardens, Alistair would still try to take his vengeance, even if it threatened the greater mission.
To reconcile this, he casts his decision as being unwilling to accept someone as dishonorable as Loghain for a brother. Yet it is widely known that the Grey Wardens are far from picky about the moral character of people they conscript, the murderous Thom Rainier being the most prominent example.
More than anything, I find Alistair's story to be quite a sad one. For the vast majority of his life, he had little to no choice over his fate. It is quite understandable that he was as worshipful about Duncan as he was, as he effectually gave Alistair an out from the plans that other people made for him, and more importantly gave him the surrogate family that he always craved.
What's darkly ironic about this whole drama is that Duncan is far more like Loghain than the heroic ideal that Alistair projects on him. Both Duncan and Loghain are willing to go to any extreme to defend what they hold dear, the only difference between them being that Duncan isn't burdened with old (if not pretty well justified) hatreds like Loghain, and that he had a much clearer perspective on true nature of the Darkspawn invasion. Contrary to Alistair's assertion that Loghain was unworthy of joining the Grey, in truth Loghain was far closer to the Grey Wardens' ideals then Alistair himself.
@@MasteringJohn In my opinion we should all think with our Warden mind: Loghain is the man who betrayed his King, hunted the only group who could end the Blight like animals, enslaved innocent elfs and let Howe torture all those people; I would happily end his life and make sure that his heir would never rule the Kingdom
I wish I could bring myself to not kill him in Origins. I always want to do that but in the end his crimes just can't be justified.
You don't need to if you don't want to. From another perspective, being forced to join the Warden and live as a traitor is as much a punishment as death, if not worse.
Honestly I don't feel bad about killing Loghain.
He let a lot of good people die by abandoning the king. Then raced back to the capitol to outlaw Grey Wardens, twist the truth and seize power leaving the common folk to fend for themselves. Towns destroyed, people massacred.
I don't find Loghain tragic or misunderstood, I just see him as another villain.
If he didn't retreat, more soldiers will die. The battle was already lost the moment darkspawn manages to breach the tower, as that means they have also found a way to flank Cailan's force from behind.
There's no guarantee he could save Cailan in time (the king was trapped at the frontline, remember?) - and attempting to do so might cost him thousands of soldiers. If that happen, they may not have enough number to defeat the Blight or repel the Orlesians.
He made many mistake, but retreating from Ostagar is not one of them.
loghain is the main antagonist even before the archdemon in origin.. i cant understand that there is a savefile where he is alive. I killed him always..
Misguided antagonist. He genuinely wanted to save Ferelden, but the odds were completely stacked against him.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 the dude was helping slavers
@@brunokingz And our Warden either pushed the dwarves further into decline (by choosing Harrowmont) or allowed the extermination of a noble family down to the last child. We're not exactly in any position to judge him.
Also, he didn't sell the elves because he discriminate them. He did it to raise an army for the Blight.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 justifying slavery ain't a good look chief.
@@ala1178 It's not justifying. Regardless of what you think about it, it is a fact that Loghain did it to raise a fund for the army. If you want to judge someone, at least take their motive into consideration.
Loghain got what he deserved. I honestly don't know why there are people who actually like this traitor. Yes he's in a book and he has a past that's very saaad, boohoo. Everyone always uses the excuse that he thought he was doing right and he was just trying to defend ferelden but whoever makes this defense fails to realize that if his efforts were successful then ferelden would have been doomed. Not only if it wasn't for flemeth saving the warden and Alistair but also the fact that he blamed them for his own crimes and put a bounty on their heads so that mercenaries and patriots alike might attempt to kill the warden should they encounter them. As if that wasn't enough he even condones the use of assassins to have the warden killed after their first successful act towards ending the blight that is plaguing Loghain's "beloved ferelden". So what would have happened had those attempts been successful? The warden and Alistair would have died leaving the only grey warden left in all of ferelden behind bars and likely to be executed. Alistair has been very clear several times that it is completely up to him and the warden and there is no hope for contacting wardens outside of ferelden as they wouldn't even be able to arrive in time. So if all of the grey wardens perished as Loghain bids then the very country he seeks to defend would have been helplessly overrun by the blight as the country is full of incompetent groups that can't even solve their own problems without the intervention of someone else and even if by some miracle they did in fact band together and actually manage to slay the archdemon, it would not truly be dead. Ferelden would inevitably fall and who knows how many other nations before the grey wardens are able to make a response. So Loghain is not only a despicable traitor but a piss poor tactician despite claims of the opposite. In closing I believe this is the best death for him. Not at the landsmeet where he can die to not live on being antagonized by his completely inhumane choices. Not at the battle of denerim where he can go gently into that quiet night, knowing he is redeeming himself for his failures. But here, alive long enough to be haunted by it all and shunned by everyone, including the order he belongs to, ultimately to die forgotten in the fade.
He was still a hero and he fought for his country to the bitter end. Orlais's occupation was horrific and Loghain has every right to resent them. Yes, his methods were wrong, but he learned from his mistakes and died a hero again.
Ferelden would have also been doomed if he'd charged at Ostagar.
You seem to forget that neither he nor the Warden knew that the Wardens were essential to slaying Archie until Riordan spills the beans. Being wrong isn't a crime. And Ostagar was a tactical retreat, which isn't treason. And sorry to burst your bubble but dying in the Fade to protect everyone and insuring the order's redemption after Warden Commander Clarel's incompetence will actually elevate him to being a hero again, far from forgotten at all. A hero fallen from grace earning his redemption is a beautiful tale. Too bad all you have on your end is bitterness and bile.
At first I used to always kill Loghain then I decided that I would spare him. I grew to like him when taking to him in camp and even bringing him to ostagar in the dlc I saw a different side to him. Then he showed up in throne room in awaking and came to say goodbye and brought me supplies. His attitude had changed and said he was happy to see my warden. I truly believe giving him a second chance is the right thing to do. Anora doesn’t witness her fathers death before her. Alister is king and he just a has to suck it up. I still wonder if he ever forgave my warden.
BioZero216 Once Again, I Found You And I Approve Once Again Of Your Comment
I'm sorry, but I still really hate Loghain. There still isn't a character I was happier to watch die in Origins. Seeing Alistair kill that bastard was the most gratifying thing of watching any of your companions do.
He is a good person but his judgment was clouded by hate. Very similar with Alistair who couldn't look past his petty hatred of Loghain to see what was best.
same thing also applies to Templars and Mages
Have you read the books?
This is... a little too forced.
Who cares about Loghain. He deserves to die, not after what he did in Origins.
I'll take Loghain over Alistair any day!
Why would anyone let Hawke live? Varric was the only thing from DAII worth preserving.