none, they both provide playability to a game filled with instakills and insane damage(even tanks are oneshotting,like k'sante and cho'gath), if riot didn't give both to assassins as well, they would've been fine, fizz, kayn, etc can just engage into anyone from anywhere, miss their combos, but still kill or survive long enough to get their abilities back and then finish the target while still living and escaping, meanwhile, the likes of tryndamere, kayle and taric can still be stopped because they are still targetable by autos, spells, CC, slows, everything, and as yourself said in the video, gwen can simply be countered by getting closer to her, and she depends on staying basically stationary for it to be effective even with the recast of it, people could argue that "getting closer to Gwen is stupid because that's what she wants, but when you think about it, if you just run away from her you will still have an advantage since the W CD is so long that you could still kite her easily, and if you are melee you'd be losing no advantage against gwen if she is inside the mist anyways, it'll be just some minor armor and mr buffs that melees have to account for, as always, the problem is not the mechanic itself, but assassins/slayers abusing it.
It feels very case by case. Duskblade, nor any item should give a champion Invincibility OR make them Untargetable honestly, but that's whatever. I think the Untargetable abilities are worse due to the champions who have it. Gwen especially makes the worst case for its existence. We're used to Yi, Fizz, and Vlad's skills which make them briefly untargetable, but Gwen just takes the cake for forcing a lot of champions into a disadvantageous trade, or utterly middle fingering on snipes. Like its worthy of being the real ultimate.
i feel like untargetability is much worse, because its so much more frequent on assasins and on a much shorter cooldown and on top of that you can just dodge any cc.
One key difference between invincibility and untargetability: interactivity. Untargetability just says “nope” to everything. At least with invincibility, there’s a way to stop them by locking them down and waiting it out. With untargetability, they have the capability to either run straight at you or away at their discretion. That’s why I say invincibility isn’t the worst… and at the very least is MUCH less oppressive than untargetability.
To me, it depends on the type of untargetability xin xhao and gwen make a circle around them, and you can fight them anyway, but fizz e and yumi w untargetability is shit to play against. Invulnerability literally can make you waste a damage ability and you can't do anything about it. And even if you say that you can cc them, you still have to burn some possible damage just to lock them down.
Yeah in SoloQ Taric ult is usually pretty bad because how much it relies on communication. Which unfortunately also make Taric generally pretty bad because of his ult eating so much of his power budget. (Though being a weird mix between a warden and an enchanter also doesn't help either)
Taric with out a decanet team play is quite hard to play. But a good Part of his Power Budget is also in his passiv. (Resetting his basic Cd) His abiletys have to be a bit on the weaker side because they are Spamabel if you play right. And if you play with a good team your ult can be realy Strong and Win Fights on its own.
Untargetability is 10x more frustrating than invincibility. in League, there are two ways to escape, especially from modern champs: CC or mobility (dashes). I mean, sure, against invincibles, you might deal 0 damage, and for some (old) champions, that's their only thing they do....But when you can't be targeted, you completely negate the abilities used on you. So the only counter to get away is *if* you have mobility. And that's a substantially restricted pool of champions that can meaningfully respond to your ability. A Trynd can still be Ashe ulted. A fizz can't. (He takes that arrow to the knee.)
i dunno about that one chief, Tryndamere alone has made me hate invincibility so badly even considering there are ways to counter him, most of the time you don't even have the tools to do it since he first has to lose the hp in a battle to then use it
I stand to say that untargetability is very much balanced since its spells deal's minimum damage and have a long cd. As a mage, all you need to do is space and the enemy can never engage on you. You use your cc, they dodge it. You don't use cc, they can't use the ability before you use it. Fizz has a point and click dash and thats all he has. If he opens with e a lux q can easily bind him and rotate all of her spells on him. Untargetability is also way shorter so in a teamfight if you use that ability, its a signal taht you have no escape. Invincibility when used is a sign to run or switch target.
@@GiantBluebird yes but you can easily run away from fizz for 0.5s or flash his second dash while trying to outrun a fed ghosting tryndamere can only end in disaster
@@beigaming8403 The only thing I really hate about untargetability is that it always gets them out of a mistake they make and have low CDs for what it does. Its annoying af not gonna lie.
I think Kindred's ult is one of the fairer ability of this type because it: a) works only in a specific location meaning you can displace Kindred or their teammates out of the circle b) works on all champs in the circle including enemies meaning if Kindred uses it at the wrong time they can make the situation actively worse than if they just didn't use the ability at all Its game winning potential is balanced out by the fact that the ability can be either completely useless or can actively troll your team
fizz being able to dodge major stuns and be able to one shot is outrageous. at least the invulnerable is an ultimate effect (ignoring pantheon cause I gave up regarding him for balance) being able to just go untargetable while trading in lane is a very strong ability and due to it usually being a disengage too not doeing anything else isn’t that bad
I don't have a problem with invulnerability, honestly. It would be fair to argue that it should be kept to short durations to ensure it doesn't eat too much power budget, but I take no issue with its existence inherently. Untargetability is frustrating, I think I was fucking scarred by Duskblade.
Yeah. Kayle's ult works because it's short, fits her theme, and has a long cooldown. Kindred ult works incredibly well because it's a double edged sword. Yes, you're invincible within it, but so is the enemy - and you're only invincible once you reach a certain amount of HP. It also really fits their theme. Tryndamere... Is kinda annoying. It's *balanced*, but because of how it works, it doesn't feel balanced. You can't one-shot him like you could a Kindred or Kayle, because he can just keep pressing the key, and it'll trigger the moment he's about to die.
I think Pantheons and Kindred’s invincibility is ok. With Pantheon you just need to attack him from a different direction and with Kindred if you get in the circle your ok too. There is outplay and chance for skill expression for enemies. Especially with Gwen’s mist, although, that one could be changed as well, but I believe it’s far better than Vlad and Fizz’s untargetable abilities.
@@typervader the problem that vars was referring to is more about kindreds kit being very weak beyond her ult, so it would be better to give her another ult with less potential to make her basic abilities stronger
I was waiting for Vars to mention Gwen when he kept on saying that the biggest weakness of untargetability is that they can't deal damage but never got it. I know it's limited by range but that champion ran counter to his central argument against untargetable champions and he didn't address it even though she was used in some visuals. That being said, a lot of untargetability skills also deal damage so maybe he kind of assumed it was already within that realm.
I'll be honest, Even though she has the most freedom while untargetable I still think Gwen's untargetability is the most fair in the game because of it's conditional nature. Sure, In most cases you probably don't want to fight Gwen in her mist, but if you have cc or the raw strength for it, you have the choice to enter her mist and fight. That already makes it better to me than Vlad, who once he pools you just have to wait while he gets his cooldowns back. Plus he can reliably run back to safety with it, while Gwen has a harder time because leaving the zone twice ends the effect early. As for Yi and Fizz, both of their abilities let them gap close onto a target and kill without room for the target to fight back. Their untargetability is frustrating specifically because they're assassins. Now Admittedly, Gwen could build full ap and act as an assassin, but I still think the conditions of her mist makes it more fair in that case. For one thing, her untargetability isn't a gap closer, so she has to burn two cooldowns for the same result Fizz and Yi gain with one. But more over, her W also doesn't deal damage so now she has to commit all three basic abilities for the same effect as Fizz and Yi. And even then, getting a situation where Gwen is able to gap close and dump her damage while not allowing the enemy to fight back requires her to space perfectly and time her spells so that she lands at the edge of her mist without repositioning it but also in melee range of the target without going far enough that the target is also in the mist. It's not a challenger gated maneuver or anything, but it's harder than pressing one button for Yi and Fizz, uses all three of your cooldowns, and leaves your mist down for 22 seconds (down to 18 maxed last) vs 16 seconds for Fizz (down to 8 maxed first) or 20 seconds on Yi (down to 18 maxed first plus 1 second off for every auto attack)
Even when max levelled, Gwen’s W has a cooldown of 13 seconds, and she’s also a champion who is otherwise countered heavily by CC. She also has to position correctly for the mist to be impactful. Even with the resistances, the mist is fairly redundant if the opponent moves inside.
I think the good thing that keeps invincibility in check is that most of them are ultimate with very long cooldowns and there are time windows when you know the ability isn't going to be used, unlike untargetability which is, for the most part, normal abilities and can be used whenever.
That and invincibility usually has a lot of counter play built into the champs that have it. Kindred's ult can go either way and she's squishy otherwise, Taric's ult is slow and Taric himself is pretty slow, Kayle has a long delay and she plays to scale herself, and Trynd has to all-in to do anything. It never feels cheap because you know it's possible to outplay these champs.
not really. it should be obvious that the discussion revolves around agency during battle because thats when the abilities in question are going to be used. youre certainly not going to be talking about someone becoming invulnerable when they're actively not becoming invulnerable, that's not the topic at hand. no one besides perhaps a brand new player is going to be activating their invulnerability when they ARENT in combat, ergo the conversation around invulnerability is inherently tied to a discussion about combat. Its premise isnt that you only have agency during a fight, its that what you do during that invulnerability is utterly limited due to the fact that they will ALWAYS be initiated during combat: you WILL be in combat when they happen
@@pokerusfreak8194 I think his point is more like, you have to take both into account before you engage, but Untargetability is a more effecient mindgame tool than Invulnerability, you can entirely deny any ability with Untargetability meaning that people will be more reluctant to throw them at you, while Invulnerability only deals with the dmg part of said ability. Kayle ult just before you get grabbed by Blitz will still you leave you in the middle of 5 people afterwards meanwhile Fizz' E entirely negates this aspect
Untargetability is also featured on more basic spells which has significantly lowered cooldowns than ultimates (which from memory are the only spells which offer invulnerability). Zhonyas is an exception, has both combined, with the added caveat of you/others cannot do anything (even move). Not being able to cast is a downside of untargetability, but thats part of the spells skill expression in my opinion. Its arguable that much like yasuos windwall for mages, untargetability can make matchups with limited "oppurtunities" or counterplay virtually impossible. Malphite engaging on a vlad to setup a gank for example, would be near impossible. Im not saying it is unbalanced, but in certain matchups it alone can make them feel as such. If champions snowball, it exaggerates the limited outplay opportunities (samira/yi with untargetable duskblade haha). As you mentioned, invulnerability allows interaction, which in my opinion is healthier overall. Most untargetable champions can temporarily feel invulnerable if used correctly (skill expression), offering it an almost identical functionality at a fraction of the CD cost. Higher ranking players will manage/remove the drawbacks and "exploit" the positives in conjunction with the rest of their kit.
in game where everything one shots you, i think both are actually required to make the game still viable, the only mistake i would say makes me question it's existence is on Fizz, like, can someone tell me again why an assassin has invincibility? hello? riot??? as if getting bursted down with 2 skills wasn't bad enough, the assassins gets a free ticket to safety on the same tool that he uses to assassinate? damn, love it when i can't LITERALLY counter the assassin that was supposed to be as squishy as an adc or mage because he has invincibility on a DASH.
Thats not Invincibility. Its Untargetability. Untargetable means nothing, not even CC connects or phases the enemy. Invincible(or Immortality), CC still works at least, and why Tryn isn't actually that scary.
@@Prince_Smugarina sorry you are right, i confused them, i won't edit the comment because you already explained, but you are right, so yeah, it makes my point even more valid, why give such things to such champions, is riot out of their minds?
@@callmeriggy at most it's half that and q is not free target so he has to have atleast a minion wave for that. also if he used e + q just kill him he has no dmg after, if not fed
As a Tryndamere onetrick I agree 100% I wish nothing more than for any of my boys power budget be put into anything but his ult, like I don't get why it seems no one wants him to be reworked like I get shyvana and maybe noc but in my opinion he needs it more then anyone because it just feels unhealthy.
I think I can answer it. Tryndamere has a pretty dbasic playstyle as a melee aa. There are not many many champions left in that role and after seeing reworks like aatrox or aurelion sol where the playstyle changed so much, that they basically count as new champions I can see why many people don´t want them to change him.
Another big issue is that the ult is basically the defining character for tryndamere. Both in lore and in gameplay it's his thing so you need to keep it or you remove the essence of the character. But as long as you have that then how are you supposed to balance around that?
@@pandy3848well i understand that is a defying thing of the champion, but i mean in the lore he can't really do that (well until the last cinematic where he fought the kindreds) he is more like a wolverine kind of character who regenerates and gets more powerful the more angry he is, i think is pretty possible to balance him around it, like in Lor where his invulnerability is nowhere to be seen, just give him damage resistance with lower health and more regeneration and fury based gameplay
@@Uelibertiga I get what you're saying, but Olaf also has a very similar lore in that it's prophesized that he will never die in battle, yet this is incorporated into his kit in an infinitely better manner than a "don't die" button. Even just reducing the invincibility timer to 3 seconds and making it so he can only cast R at near full fury and doing so drains all fury would be a good start.
Miss Informing on tryndamere as usual, tryndamere isn't invulnerable when he uses undying rage, he's immortal, he takes the damage he just doesn't die, therefore you CAN lifesteal and out heal him, add in the fact that his only source of damage is a single damaging ability and Autoattacks. You're right, invulnerability sucks, but comparing it to immortality, and the fact that tryndamere, If you're good at the game can be easily cc'd into irrelevancy makes the comparison unfair.
for me if its on a champion without dashes i am generally fine with it kayle never felt oppressive just because of her R but champs like fizz (really low cd) yuumi (has long has she has a champ on her team thats alive) and the biggest problem... Tryndamere R has he can just run u down with a slow if u run and massive healing free crit long dash great wave clear strong early and no "weak" time kayle is balanced to a weak early (only being "strong" at level 1) and easy to bully before 6 due to melee without dash and with a weak wave clear until level 11 yuumi is balanced on being just a bad champ with below avrage power level (due to the fact that if she is ok she is broken without counterplay) fizz is just not that strong and has a meh level 4-5 with a meh late game taric is more dependent on team comp where if its insane engage vs burst or front to back he is insane but vs poke or zone or skirmish teams he does near nothing with it kindred is both ways and is the same where a good ult or good team to use with that ult its great but if its not the case its bad Invincibility is fine on champions if its made in a way like kayle or taric or kindred but really bad in cases like yuumi and Tryndamere its really oppressive when they are strong in meta (like currently yuumi sucks and Tryndamere is really stupidly strong due to crit buff and items with crit being buffed) and ways like fizz is more gray area (and when a high movement speed build on a champion like kayle its makes her gray has well while if kayle is strong early she is very oppressive) Invincibility is a good thing for a game has it gives counterplay thats not just cc if kayle is really behind (say for 20min+ she is hard ganked by both mid and jng even support and counterpicket and is dying under turret she still is a champ that can have that feels good play with R even if she hits like pool noodles with say 2/10/3 or even 0/15++ at 20min and a champion like pantheon can still go for a 2v1 and get out alive with maybe a kill or 2 if the enemy fks up and lets fiora have counterplay agains the tanks she is meant to win agains with there mass CC abilitys by sending it back to them)
Invincibility abilities have historically been really good. They are telegraphed, usually lower the DPS of the attacker and have myriad methods of counterplay. (It helps it is on ults all/the vast majority of the time) Untargetability is the opposite, these abilities can be used on a whim, deal a ton of damage and have nonexistent counterplay besides the user being bad. Too many characters in this game are reliant on Point Click damage/CC to have untargetability exist all the time. It basically turns the game into a matchup simulator, where you hope you don't get countered by a character who nullifies you. This is why League is such a miserable game to play. Because a death or two early on, or a bad matchup means the game is effectively over. And then you have to sit through another 15 minutes of game where everyone says it's your fault for losing.
Imagine if avg time to end game wasn't be a 20 min. good times but hey tictok players now want games to end at 10 min so let''s up dmg x10 for all champs and boom now they playing in another moba but it's still called LoL.
Invincibility while annoying I'm perfectly fine with, untargetability 100% needs real counterplay, and mobility needs more counterplay What really makes untargetability feel awful is the champs that innately have it are almost always paired with inherent mobility, meaning not only do you have to wait it out...but 9/10 their gonna clear enough distance to get away once its over anyways...idk i feel having as much anti-tank/heal as we do, we should really see more anti-mobility and maybe even something anti untargetability
what champs are you talking about? all i can think of is vlad who does not have any mobility, fizz, where his untargetability is his only free target dash and mostly has to be used to engage and gwen which is the only champion these concerns apply to but even then she needs to already have gotten away from you to use it
I'd rather my opponent be invincible than silence me, nothing on planet earth is less fun than dying because the way you "outplayed" me was turning all my buttons off
Tryndamere also having a bunch of movement speed and attack speed while he's using his Ult is so dumb. Playing the CC applying Tank often means going into melee - Leona, Nautilus, etc. - trying to stop him murdering your team means he just gets to auto-attack you. And once he's on top of you you have a really hard time actually running away from him as he's fast AND he can spin his way after you/through walls.
I think that's a bad take. Invincibility is hardly an issue in league - it has been kept in check very well so far. Firstly, it doesn't remove CC. That alone makes it WAY weaker than untargetability, because CC is the #1 tool to stop carries. Tryndamere has a very powerful kit AND he is a brutal stat checker than can 1v1 anything in the game.... and he still doesn't destroy pro-play/soloQ because as long as you can hit him with any CC or just retreat a bit, he loses all of his pressure. Secondly, most invincibility skills have a timing component that the enemy can use to predict it. If a trynda player ults at full HP, they will waste their ult. If they hold too long, they might die and not ult. There is a fair amount of skill for both sides in this regard. Similarly, a Taric player needs to know when to ult to get the most benefit, and the enemy team can play accordingly, either through disengage or bursting down targets. Pantheon's invincibility is only partial, so I wouldn't count as such, it's closer to Braum's E. The only unconditional invincibility skill in the game is Kayle's ult - which used to be so underwhelming Riot had to buff it in her rework. Maybe one day I think Riot might make a champion that will put this all in check, but so far the fact that it is considered a more expensive part of a champion's kit has kept things A-OK. Untargetability, because it's less expensive, ends up being more easily mishandled.
Playing a variety of games really puts League's balancing problems into perspective. I still love the game, but every day I get a little more frustrated towards champs like Tryndamere and Vladimir. I think examples of good invulnerabilities are Pantheon W because of the factors already mentioned and Lissandra R because she has to choose between locking down an enemy champion or healing and protecting herself. Fizz E is somewhere in the middle because it's very strong early game and a nightmare if he gets ahead, but he is more tolerable to deal with because of it's very short duration. I don't think either status effect is worse for the game than the other, it totally depends on the ability's context.
Pant E is ok only when you look only on it without looking on Q-W-R and holy sheesh his W+Q with lethal items so broken and botrk with W before nerf Mmmm. So in his kit it's was broken bc he can press R landed press WQ oneshot ADC mage etc. and press E to run away. Fizz E same problem also problem with game engine bc when he get stuned during his Q charge and bc of queue after Q end he casting E in stun it's a big problem. Also Fizz have Q range same or bigger then all mages on midllane so if you going to pouke him or farm minions you insta getting his QW and he can just run away with E and only way to counterplay it's ability like QE combo on Syndra no other options bc his charge at you cannot be canceled like garen R in old times and like Rengar jump.
vlad pool is fine out of all of them tbh because it has such a long cd and he can't do anything during it. fizz E doing the most damage in his kit + movement + wall hops + aoe + no cooldown even early game is just ridiculous
I really don't think invincibility is that bad. Riot knows it's extremely powerful, which is why they balance around it. Kayle's R is pretty short duration, Trynd can very easily just get chain CC'ed, and many champs can even kite him. Kindred R applies to everyone to make it more balanced. If you aren't able to play around these abilities, I think it's more of a skill issue honestly. Sure, it gives a huge advantage for a short while, but the same can be said with CC. A max distance Ashe arrow gives you 3 seconds of outputting damage, repositioning, escaping, chasing etc. There are so many mechanics in league that reduces interactibility (Zhonyas, movement speed, dashes etc.). If you start removing these, you get a boring and flat game experience. Agree on untargetability though. All the champs with it feel terrible to play against, same with Duskblade before it got removed.
Really enjoyed the video. But you never mentioned Fiora w (parry). Neither for untargetability nor for invincibility. Where does it fall and why was it not included?
I've been watching your videos for some time now and they're awesome. I just want to take the opportunity to suggest a little change on your voice track. It's a bit too boomy/bassy, which could be for a variety of reasons, and it makes it hard for me to listen to your videos on my main system, which has a subwoofer. I know that a strong low end is common practice in this type of recordings, but if you're adding it through EQ, I strongly suggest dialing it down a bit. My guess for the problematic range is 60-120hz. Another cause could be "proximity effect", so I would try taking a bit of distance from the mic when recording and see what happens. Thanks and keep up the great work!
Why infinite scaling should not exist in LoL Why invisibility should not exist in LoL Why ability reset should not exist in Lol These above are more cancer than invincibility
I feel that if LoL’s invuln abilities had more caveats like in Dota2 it may feel less of a problem. The big two I can think of are Omniknight and Oracle in D2. The prior only grants invuln to physical damage while the latter gives invuln for the current moment but you will take the full damage after the effect wears off. If there were some nuances in LoLs invuln skills it may make things a bit better.
The thing is Dota has way more option to deal with this types of abilities in the form of extended crowd control, as well as giving way to simple ignore the invul, for example Guardian angel is so easy to deal with by only having a single basic dispel like the infamous nullifier, and even Oracle's false promise is a very well designed ability since its not just invul with infinite amount of damage mitigation, it just makes you ignore the damage for up to 10 seconds, after that if you took more damage than you can handle you will die NO MATTER WHAT, no eul, no aeon, no shallow grave, NOTHING, thats why Oracle usually becomes a heal bot right aftef casting false promise since it usually becomes a race to see who heals or deals more damage to the hero with the invul. And speaking of shallow grave, it tecnically can tank infinite amounts of damage but it still can be countered, thats why you see every single dazzle in existence perma banning axe from his games since shallow grave does nothing against getting dunked Ps: I just remembered that Axe is another way of countering false promise cause if the enemy is already below the health threshold when saved Axe can just kill him ignoring anything else
I largely agree, though I think you missed or unvalued the nuances of how the invulnerability is implemented case by case. I would say that invulnerability with no counterplay or trade off should be removed, rather than the status entirely. You touch on this yourself, with pantheon/kindred vs kayle/tryndamere. Kayle and tryndamere can hit a button and be invincible for several seconds with no downside or counterplay. In other words; for a few seconds they enter a state where they are at a massive advantage with no outplay potential for the enemy, beyond the regular tactics they already had at their disposal. Kindred and pantheon, however, have trade-offs. Pantheon can’t cast other abilities or autoattack, and his movement speed is reduced, AND he’s only invincible from one direction. This means that he can actually be at a disadvantage if an enemy gets behind him, despite being ‘invincible’. Kindred applies invincibility in an area, so the same advantage state is applied to enemies / allies / neutrals. An advantage applied equally to all sides is no longer an advantage. When used incorrectly it can actually hurt kindred. If you’re facing a sett or a vayne, you have to expect them to immediately powerslam ypu back out of your own zone of safety. There’s outplay potential here that isn’t necessarily out of the enemy’s control. tldr; invulnerability is fine, but it should be conditional and used in ways so as not to provide the user a hard ‘advantage’ state completely beyond the opponent’s ability to control.
""Kayle and tryndamere can hit a button and be invincible for several seconds with no downside or counterplay." What is CC? Or what is Nasus W or what is Malz R and etc? You can outplay them by pick and thats your problem if your team is stupid and didn''t take good CC champ. In such logic Yi is imba. Kindred is just broken is some situations and in others it's can ruin Kindred game so yeap it's balanced but it's still same as trund but in area and if it''s Nashor or Elder you still would stay in this zone bc you don't want to lose object. Panth have broken WQ combo and E just letting him press flahs wq on adc and don't die for that so with his burst rn it''s broken in some situations and not in rare situation like fight near Nashor or Elder that is can happen once or twice in the game.
@@BlackJackSincroknight yes and if u need to save cc just to get counter an ult how is that not a issue. All trynd has to do if u dont cc him then 1 shot him is spam E towards you click on you then ur dead in like 2 seconds maybe
@@basicname1555 I guess some adoptologist will say skill issue, but cmon that is just cancer design. But at least some people playing trynd and he doesn't have fking 56%+ winrate to get nerf. Just imagine only thing that counters him is silence and we only like 4 champs with silence? Soraka, cho, kass and I don't remember last one. Imagine if silence was an option in summoner spells or items, that would give opportunity to play against him on limits and trynd would became much harder to play on.
I will say this Taric's ult requires prety good timing and awareness by teammates. Kayle's ult is very strong but Kayle is literally not a champion for 80% of the game Tryndamere however is strong during pretty much all stages of the game except argueably teamfights. His ult is just pure statcheck bullshit.
I think this habilities help people think ways to deal with them. You don't have to think of your combo, you also have to know how to deal with those unfair habilities. Fir example, you can out trade a Darius with a Malphite if you just save the Q for after he uses E, you just get away, the W isn't enough to compensate for the mv speed you gain and he looses. Once you understand how an enemy champion works, you can deal with them. Yiu just have to worry how the enemy addapts to you knowing how to deal with them afterwards, but they normaly just keep trying and failing.
I would love to see a video where you discuss arena. How it introduces the mechanics vs stats conundrum and why this causes certain champions to be far stronger in (an average) arena game.
It's as you said at the end of the video, the problem isn't with invincibity as a concept, but almost every champ with access to it can still move completely freely (except for Pantheon, who is by far the least problematic of them imo). Compared to untargetability, where using those abilities severely limits your options, invincibility should also put way more restrictions on the champions using them, so it doesn't just become a game of stalling the enemy for as long as possible while he still has his full kit available. So rather than being a fundamentally broken mechanic, Riot just hasn't given it enough counterplay through the inherent design of the ability, which would make this mechanic a lot more palatable.
I feel like the champions with invincibility are much more obvious to outplay. Its harder to outplay gwen when she presses w and runs at your adc while throwing her ult Im okay with both tbh. It just changes how you play the game and interact with some champions Sure theyre frustrating, especially when fed but its honestly not hard to find counterplay in most siuations. We might need another durability patch tho.
They must nerf dmg not hp they just doing it everytime bc they stupid. Last patch torch is broken -> Let's nerf all champs who using it and after 3-4 patches they will nerf torch and this champs will suck they will add them more dmg then before and now we have more dmg in the game and WOW it''s already how many years after they add mythics bc thats start from that stupid idea and they start nerfing champs after a couple of patches they nerf item and now champs suck and now they overbuff them and after that happend they making crazy numbers but here we go another items get buffed to much and now we in cycle! They just don't want to fix stuff bc they stupid maybe Idk.
10:00 That's also why I believe something like Zhonyas should put everything you are doing in stasis, pausing everything, so if you're a Morde for an example with his passive active it should stop spinning and not tick down or do damage basically freezing it in time, if you're have minions they should also get put into stasis, also your cd should not tick down either, I honestly wish that they would literally make Zhonyas act like time is completely stopped for you, and everything that's happening to you will be frozen in time, meaning if you were gonna die to ignite, you'll still die to ignite unless you get bailed out by your team.
Yes but they changed it and WOW now she broken bc before that change they nerf her myth item and now we don't have them in the game but dmg to balance already done.
Having it as an ult, for a limited time or after a "long" cast is understandable not to say fine, but having it instantly on a basic skill, is not, just give Pantheon a normal shield and everything would be better
Fizz, Zed and other ASSasins who can just press 1 button and now your CC can''t reach them specialy funny when you Leona who hit fizz with Q and after that he cast E in stun. Or zed who casting his ult after Vayne E in wall and etc.
I’m curious to see if Riot changes it so that causing cc effects on invincible champions would end the invincibility. I’m mainly thinking like Tryn R, Kayle R and Taric R. Kindred is limited by having it be in the fixed location, still very busted but not as much as the others.
which may look the same but immortality almost always leave the champion at death's door afterwards, and damage still goes through if it isn't lethal damage.
@@SawyerFan.1 If they are both at low HP then sure, they both work the same way, but the invulnerability of kayle's ult or taric's ult can be used more proactively instead of reactively, to block a burst that they know its coming instead of just preventing people from finishing the other off Invulnerability = can be used both proactively and reactively. Immortality = can only be used reactively.
Technically not true as kindred says you can not fall below a certain hp threshold. If there is elder drag in play you can still kill under lambs respite.
In theory if any health execute gets above the 20% threshold if i recall if can kill. You could check with something like asol but I'm not gonna bother.
The only invulnerability I have a problem with is Tryndamere's because there's no way to outplay it. You can't even cc lock him and burst him because for some godforsaken reason he is allowed to use it while cced. All the others you have some kind of counterplay. Taris R is so delayed, most teams can easily disengage or kill him before it starts. Kayle R became more of a problem sincee the buff that made her able to act for most of its duration, but it's still single-target and you can cc lock her and kill her before she's able to use it since she's sqishy. Kindred R also makes the enemy team invulnerable, so it can also backfire massively. You can also use displacements to remove someone from the invincible zone.
you mentioned Phanteon was the frist champ to have Invincibility on a basic ability but isnt fioras w also a state of Invincibility since she can be targeted
I really wonder how would be Kayle without the invincibility, they would really need to rework the entire champion, they would either need to gigabuff her early game and make her even crazy strong late game in order to not get one shoted in any point of the game like add more base health and health scaling, add more armor and magic resist and etc or they would need to rework the champion as a whole
The main reason why I think untargetability is worse than invincibility, is invincibility is reserved for ultimates only (not counting Pantheon's E, as it's not actual invincibility), while untargetability is always a basic ability, meaning they have a 15-20 second cooldown at most, while invincibility ultimates, even in late-game with a bunch of Ability Haste and at max level, easily have at least a 50 second cooldown, meaning that in every fight, invincibility can only be used once as a free get-out-of-jail card, untargetability may be used more times in that same fight.
your whole argument about about invincibility being a advantage state where your opponent can't come up on top of is strange considering a lot of abilities work like that. Everything point and click like veigar ult, or annie q, or auto attacks? Advantage for them that you (unless you have invincibility, unmarketability, or some whey to delete projectiles) has nothing you can do against it. You could also put all hard cc into that category as long as it hits. But like the examples above invincibility is far from being a win game button, and although being a advantage state where the enemy can't come up ahead, there is the macro gameplay of planning, vision, positioning, etc that plays in to how effective invincibility is, just as all other abilities work.
@@dreamergamer9291All counterplay against damage (except killing them first) also works against invulnerability? If the opponent isn't dealing much damage or killing you then their death being delayed by x seconds won't matter as much.
I personally think that it is ok to have that, but they should have a condition to use it. Like on tryndamere, that he can only use it if on full rage bar and it consumes the ragebar, so its just used to flee or something like that. On kayle I think its ok because she cannot attack half of the time of the invincibility
Ideas : -Kayle : can only ult herself and can't use other abilities during the cast -Taric : rework and completely remove his ult so he can have a real kit -Tryndamere : rework -Xin : can only dodge auto attacks with ult Kindred : it's not that bad
@@dreamergamer9291 old kayle was the opposite of what I said, she can deal damage with autos and the ult does no damage, what I suggested is kayle can't deal damage but the ult does
simply making it so that invulnerability doesnt work on towers would do wonders. That was they can't just tower dive you with impunity. And only late game when tanks can take alot of tower shots will it matter if you let those champs get ahead.
12:28 Mars on kinda Dota 2 already have something similar where his shield is a toggle ability where you take 60% less dmg from the front and 35% less dmg from the side but at the cost of slowing him down
i don't mind invincibility because riot realize its busted so it's usually an ults with long cd untargetability and other similar stuff like samira/yasuo wind wall on the other hand is problematic because 1 - they block cc which invincibility can't so you can argue it's actually stronger than invincibility 2- adc for example I can't just buy an item that turns me into a melee champion that penetrate wind walls so it would blocks 100% of my damage, it's literally invincibility. but it has much shorter cooldown because "it has a weakness" but the game is made in such a way that it's impossible to capitalize on said "weakness" pass champion select
Invincibility is fine, currently i think all champions with invincibility are balanced around that invincibility or the invincibility is changed or tweaked itself. For example kindred, the balance for kindred's invulnerability is that enemys can also be invulnerable too, all invulnerability currently has either a drawback, a limit, or is part of their balance
I don't think all invulns are a problem nor even really most. As long as there is a realistic avenue to do something to them I think they are great. The only two who really are just problems are Kayle and Tryndamere. They both are just fully invincible and no real condition applied. Each has a ridiculous advantage to there own invuln as well, kayle can give hers to another player if they are better for the current teamfight, or lets say in case the difference of winning or losing a teamfight is not letting a kat reset her abilities. On the other hand tryndamere cannot be stopped from ulting and that is ridiculous, at least with the ult being only tied to a cooldown, itd be different if he had to be at max rage to use it, or is forced to use it like a gnar transformation when at full rage, but nah just gets to use it whenever convenient. Kindred, Taric and Pantheon all have at least relatively fair invulns and something to exploit within them. Kindred gives it to anyone in her area, so you can even use this to your advantage and knock her away with something like a lee sin or poppy ult and take her ult from her effectively, Taric has a windup to his invuln, meaning you have a window to burst high priority targets before the invuln triggers, and Pantheon as you said only has invulnerability from a certain direction and his doesnt shield him from tower shots. Ultimately its not that the invulns need to be shorter even, just that they need a opening like these 3 champs give to the opponent a chance to make a play.
Tryndamere gains death immunity not invincibility. Though seemingly functionally the same, what makes it different is that he still takes damage but it stops him from going below a health threshold. What it does is extends his ability to stay in a fight, not preventing anything other than his own death. It’s a game of chicken both before he casts it and during the cast. Cast it early and the value of the 5 seconds is reduced, too late and he dies before he can cast it. Then, if you cant kill your opponent quick enough, how much duration is left before he leaves or should he commit and risk dying shortly after. Honestly, he would be better off without it, but do you guys really want his power budget to allow him to gain a different form of sustain and rather than a squishy melee ADC, he ends up as another scrappy skirmisher or a crit based fighter like the wind brothers? I like the fact that the primary skill expression on tryndamere is the ult timing. Having these “unfair” mechanics gives the game a bit more nuance, otherwise every champion will become very samey just using the same recycled mechanics even more so than it already is.
I think invincibility should be an hp threshold. Like you can get damage. But you can't get under 20%. This way an early invincibility usage would still incentify damaging the character. And a late one would incentify jumping on him as soon as he come out of it. Healing them would also be somewhat of a good idea if people flee him. Wich could make people stop fleeing them to keep him low.
I like Kindred's invulnerability more than anyone else's, and even if all other invuln were removed, I think stasis (zonya's, bard R) should stay along with Kindred. Kindred's ult is favored by Kindred's team because they get to decide when it happens, but EVERYTHING in K's ult is invincible, and EVERYTHING is healed at the end. I think that adds a lot more depth than, for instance, Kayle, who just says "nope" to her or one of her teammates dying. edit: I don't play ranked and only play this game casually, mostly norms with friends. My friends who do play ranked say that my skill is around low gold, so my opinion might not be all that good
Only problem is that I doubt you or anyone else will convince Riot to remove Kayle's Invincibility. It's too iconic to remove. You could make it so it's only targetable on herself and she can't do anything, but that feels underwhelming. One possible (if long-winded) suggestion would be this: On activation, Kayle surrounds herself with 5 holy swords and begins as invincible. For 2.5 seconds, if she doesn't use an ability (or auto-attack, but I'm iffy on that), she is completely invulnerable to any damage. However, she can also press R up to 5 times for each sword to attack with them (similar to Irelia's old ult in function). Each sword used reduces the damage mitigation (to a minimum of, say, 60% at 0) but increases the duration by .5-1 second per sword used. Swords that are unused at the end of the ult, or if any other ability is used, will be thrown out in an AoE attack akin to how her current ult ends, with damage based on how many swords are left. If the ult is used on someone else, it's basically the same as her current ult but with only 80% mitigation at most instead of complete invincibility. Also, the damage at the end of the ult vs. using all the swords up would likely be comparable so that you aren't overly incentivized to use one or the other. Tryn I wouldn't say much given he should be re-worked, but possibly it's only full invuln if he's at max rage BEFORE activating his ult (for a shorter duration), or there's some level of self-slow based on damage taken during the ult. The latter doesn't sound that great either, but I don't have a lot of options. As for Taric...probly just make it a huge defense aura buff, I guess?
When I think about the champions with invincibility, they are annoying because of the invincibility otherwise they don’t feel very strong but when I think about champion with untargetability, they are scary for the rest of their kit, not the brief moment they don’t exist. This is why to me the power budget argument is a good one, make the champions all round kit feel better instead of having one saving grace, I think kindreds is a great example on how to do it well, it affects the enemies as well, but they put so much of her power budget into her últ and passive that without both working correctly it’s just painful
I disagree. Kindreds ult is perfectly fine. Sure it makes kindred immune...but it also does the same to enemies. You can push them out of it, ect. Its fine. Kayle are is fine. Kayle had that ult before her rework and didnt have those issues, its just how they tried to force her to scale. Tryndas ult sucks though and is defeintly a problem. Same with Taric. You came off very biased in this video, you never talked about the weaknesses of each of these effects. Taric with a huge delay for instance.
@@JackiEEEEEEE The differnce is the duration. Kayles ult lasts 2.5 seconds, Trynda is 5. Not to mention Trynda can ult even while CCed by a malz ult, Kayle can not ult while she is CCed. The differnce is application and duration.
Finaly, thought the exact same thoses chooseen exemple are terrible ( kindred lol) Untarget is way worse than short invinvibility in général. Except trinda thoses who have invulnérability have a huge downside either on the spell itself either on the all kit design
If I had to choose one I’d say invincibility is worse. I think a good way of balancing it is actually to make towers ignore it, but too many players would complain about loosing it. I personally would also be upset as someone who mains kindred. I love their ultimate and it would be a shame if it got removed, and personally do not think it takes too much power budget from their kit because of its conditions. Can’t say the same about other champions of course.
As a Taric otp i have to say that Tarics ult shouldnt be even compared to other ones from this video. because the point of "youre invincible and can do anythink you want" applies in theory theres few thing balancing it out. you have to somehow stay alive as a whole team for the same duration as invicibility before it goes off, and you have to make sure enemies wont just back down the moment you use it. its really hard to actually use it, nad theres so many thing that can go wrong while others just press the button in the middle of a fight and laugh in your face.
Being untargetable is worse because its a more commonly used mechanic and is functionally the same where the only exception is DoTs/effects on the target before they become untargetable. Also "invincible" champs are not invincible, they're damage immune. They can still be controlled and affected. Untargetable champs cannot be stunned, rooted, slowed, displaced because they're untargetable. The context in which untargetable is used is also really fucking awful in league, a lot of champs with untargetable have the trait tied in with mobility (fizz), heals (Viego) or damage (Gwen & Kayn). Its as if the idea that an ignite or Zed ult could *in theory* kill them while they're in their untargetable state means they don't need the caveates tied to say, kayle ult (long cooldown, limited effect, used to disable auto attacks, still vulnerable to CC and displacement)
Taric: World's longest windup Kindred: It goes both ways Tryndamere: Stat check: do you have the stat "Good CC Ability?" If not, you lose. Fizz: Zhonya's on a 6s cooldown Xin Zhao: Anti-ADC
When I heard him explaining how the abilities are balanced, being a Trynd main, I was eeally excited to leaen something new about him 😂 10:56 But no lol that's a pretty fair assessment
It's why I loved the second iteration of Taric's old ultimate Radiance; does AoE magic damage and gives him and nearby allies a boost in AP and AD for 10 seconds. While it was admittedly Old League, it was easy enough to rework for today's League. Either pull a K'Sante where he sacrifices his armor for bonus AP or have it do AoE magic damage while enemies are inside (akin to Sunfire) for 5 seconds, but he's slowed down and has a very long CD . Given he has a stun in his kit already, the latter would be more impactful. Granted, given Sunfire Aegis, I don't see an ult like that happening. It'd be better than his terrible ult that takes away from what made him good in his old iteration: an anti-AD healing tank. As for Invulnerable vs. Untargetability, I'll take untargetability. While annoying, it's easier to counter play against.
Most people would probably say invulnerable is way more annoying but it is just because its more balanced than invincibility meaning it is more present too, there is a lot of counterplay to invulnerability but there is legit none other than litteral perma cc for invincibility
To be honest, is not so much the untergetability itself, is the champions that have them. The reason why Viego is such a coin flip is because once he gets the passive resets, you cannot do ANYTHING. Fizz is so frustrating is that he can run at you and burst you OR run away WHILE dashing. The only way to attack Gwen is being inside her circle, which is exactly what she wants. It's the K'Sante dilema. By themselves, the abilities may not mean much, but together makes the champion very annoying.
I only really agree with Xin Zhao (in a similar vein to Gwen), Tryndamere, Taric, and Kayle invulnerability being bad for the game. I think Pantheon E already feels like a counter ability and doesn't really have core issues, though I wouldn't be opposed to your suggested change. It has clear windows that make it strong and is part of what keeps Pantheon's scaling fine enough. I think Lamb's Respite is really interesting because it's multi faceted and I'm glad it is in the game. It's an AOE field meaning displacing anyone in it will not apply the effect to them, it has a heal component at the end, and it can effect Kindred's enemies too. I view it like Bard ult in that way and I think once again there are clear windows where it is strong and it can easily whiff too. The rest could use some kind of harder commitment to a Paladin archetype rather than just letting them not die. Xin Zhao and ESPECIALLY Tryndamere don't really fit into modern League and imo the reworks for Kayle and Taric were not successful.
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
Between Untargetability and Invincibility, which mechanic do you think is worse? strawpoll.com/jVyG2pJO1Z7
Duskblade of dakthar invicibility is a war crime
point to click cc or executions
none, they both provide playability to a game filled with instakills and insane damage(even tanks are oneshotting,like k'sante and cho'gath), if riot didn't give both to assassins as well, they would've been fine, fizz, kayn, etc can just engage into anyone from anywhere, miss their combos, but still kill or survive long enough to get their abilities back and then finish the target while still living and escaping, meanwhile, the likes of tryndamere, kayle and taric can still be stopped because they are still targetable by autos, spells, CC, slows, everything, and as yourself said in the video, gwen can simply be countered by getting closer to her, and she depends on staying basically stationary for it to be effective even with the recast of it, people could argue that "getting closer to Gwen is stupid because that's what she wants, but when you think about it, if you just run away from her you will still have an advantage since the W CD is so long that you could still kite her easily, and if you are melee you'd be losing no advantage against gwen if she is inside the mist anyways, it'll be just some minor armor and mr buffs that melees have to account for, as always, the problem is not the mechanic itself, but assassins/slayers abusing it.
It feels very case by case. Duskblade, nor any item should give a champion Invincibility OR make them Untargetable honestly, but that's whatever.
I think the Untargetable abilities are worse due to the champions who have it. Gwen especially makes the worst case for its existence. We're used to Yi, Fizz, and Vlad's skills which make them briefly untargetable, but Gwen just takes the cake for forcing a lot of champions into a disadvantageous trade, or utterly middle fingering on snipes. Like its worthy of being the real ultimate.
i feel like untargetability is much worse, because its so much more frequent on assasins and on a much shorter cooldown and on top of that you can just dodge any cc.
Yes my favorite champion: Duskblade of Draktharr
One key difference between invincibility and untargetability: interactivity. Untargetability just says “nope” to everything. At least with invincibility, there’s a way to stop them by locking them down and waiting it out. With untargetability, they have the capability to either run straight at you or away at their discretion. That’s why I say invincibility isn’t the worst… and at the very least is MUCH less oppressive than untargetability.
you are completely right, I think untargetability is really worse
To me, it depends on the type of untargetability xin xhao and gwen make a circle around them, and you can fight them anyway, but fizz e and yumi w untargetability is shit to play against. Invulnerability literally can make you waste a damage ability and you can't do anything about it. And even if you say that you can cc them, you still have to burn some possible damage just to lock them down.
invincibility is fine until it's tryndamere tbh
MUCH less oppressive is a stretch, it’s slightly less oppressive. Unless you hit them with a morgana Q, there’s no difference at all between them.
@@proliloli2141
Exhausted's honest reaction:
I really hate how Taric's power budget is crippled entirely by an infinite value ult that depends on your team not messing up during the delay.
Yeah in SoloQ Taric ult is usually pretty bad because how much it relies on communication. Which unfortunately also make Taric generally pretty bad because of his ult eating so much of his power budget. (Though being a weird mix between a warden and an enchanter also doesn't help either)
Cast it too soon and enemy runs and waits before fighting back
Cast it too late and you wont even have a chance to survive before it lands
54% win rate btw
Taric with out a decanet team play is quite hard to play. But a good Part of his Power Budget is also in his passiv. (Resetting his basic Cd) His abiletys have to be a bit on the weaker side because they are Spamabel if you play right. And if you play with a good team your ult can be realy Strong and Win Fights on its own.
I honestly think Taric ult is the only invincibility that is justifiable
Untargetability is 10x more frustrating than invincibility.
in League, there are two ways to escape, especially from modern champs: CC or mobility (dashes).
I mean, sure, against invincibles, you might deal 0 damage, and for some (old) champions, that's their only thing they do....But when you can't be targeted, you completely negate the abilities used on you. So the only counter to get away is *if* you have mobility. And that's a substantially restricted pool of champions that can meaningfully respond to your ability.
A Trynd can still be Ashe ulted. A fizz can't. (He takes that arrow to the knee.)
i dunno about that one chief, Tryndamere alone has made me hate invincibility so badly even considering there are ways to counter him, most of the time you don't even have the tools to do it since he first has to lose the hp in a battle to then use it
@@reyalfa18CC can stop Trynd, but Fizz can just press E to avoid that shit
I stand to say that untargetability is very much balanced since its spells deal's minimum damage and have a long cd. As a mage, all you need to do is space and the enemy can never engage on you. You use your cc, they dodge it. You don't use cc, they can't use the ability before you use it. Fizz has a point and click dash and thats all he has. If he opens with e a lux q can easily bind him and rotate all of her spells on him. Untargetability is also way shorter so in a teamfight if you use that ability, its a signal taht you have no escape. Invincibility when used is a sign to run or switch target.
@@GiantBluebird yes but you can easily run away from fizz for 0.5s or flash his second dash while trying to outrun a fed ghosting tryndamere can only end in disaster
@@beigaming8403 The only thing I really hate about untargetability is that it always gets them out of a mistake they make and have low CDs for what it does. Its annoying af not gonna lie.
Fizz and yuumi made me hate the game, so now I main fizz to make others hate the game
Ah yes, "if you can't beat them, be them"
It was said you would destroy the sith, not join them!
@@Souffle42 if you cant beat fizz you should just quit the game.
@@zygbeee8563send opgg rn
@@zygbeee8563agree but not cause fizz is easy to beat, I just think everyone should quit and we'll all be happier
I think Kindred's ult is one of the fairer ability of this type because it:
a) works only in a specific location meaning you can displace Kindred or their teammates out of the circle
b) works on all champs in the circle including enemies meaning if Kindred uses it at the wrong time they can make the situation actively worse than if they just didn't use the ability at all
Its game winning potential is balanced out by the fact that the ability can be either completely useless or can actively troll your team
Bard: 🎶🎶🎶
fizz being able to dodge major stuns and be able to one shot is outrageous.
at least the invulnerable is an ultimate effect (ignoring pantheon cause I gave up regarding him for balance)
being able to just go untargetable while trading in lane is a very strong ability and due to it usually being a disengage too not doeing anything else isn’t that bad
😊
I love stunning Panth in his invuln state and then beating the crap outta him
I don't have a problem with invulnerability, honestly. It would be fair to argue that it should be kept to short durations to ensure it doesn't eat too much power budget, but I take no issue with its existence inherently. Untargetability is frustrating, I think I was fucking scarred by Duskblade.
Viegos passive, annoying af
Yeah. Kayle's ult works because it's short, fits her theme, and has a long cooldown.
Kindred ult works incredibly well because it's a double edged sword. Yes, you're invincible within it, but so is the enemy - and you're only invincible once you reach a certain amount of HP. It also really fits their theme.
Tryndamere... Is kinda annoying. It's *balanced*, but because of how it works, it doesn't feel balanced. You can't one-shot him like you could a Kindred or Kayle, because he can just keep pressing the key, and it'll trigger the moment he's about to die.
@@Kiroana and he can ult through CC
I think Pantheons and Kindred’s invincibility is ok. With Pantheon you just need to attack him from a different direction and with Kindred if you get in the circle your ok too. There is outplay and chance for skill expression for enemies. Especially with Gwen’s mist, although, that one could be changed as well, but I believe it’s far better than Vlad and Fizz’s untargetable abilities.
dont forget that paths w hitbox is broken. also new empowered w gives resistances, so kindred is the most balanced one
Invincibility =/= Invisibility
@@fanficologist6621minor spelling mistake, argument lost
Excalty. Kindreds is very well balacned since it can hurt your team and be easily outplayed. He was just being very biased.
@@typervader the problem that vars was referring to is more about kindreds kit being very weak beyond her ult, so it would be better to give her another ult with less potential to make her basic abilities stronger
I was waiting for Vars to mention Gwen when he kept on saying that the biggest weakness of untargetability is that they can't deal damage but never got it. I know it's limited by range but that champion ran counter to his central argument against untargetable champions and he didn't address it even though she was used in some visuals. That being said, a lot of untargetability skills also deal damage so maybe he kind of assumed it was already within that realm.
GWEN IS IMMUNE
I'll be honest, Even though she has the most freedom while untargetable I still think Gwen's untargetability is the most fair in the game because of it's conditional nature. Sure, In most cases you probably don't want to fight Gwen in her mist, but if you have cc or the raw strength for it, you have the choice to enter her mist and fight. That already makes it better to me than Vlad, who once he pools you just have to wait while he gets his cooldowns back. Plus he can reliably run back to safety with it, while Gwen has a harder time because leaving the zone twice ends the effect early.
As for Yi and Fizz, both of their abilities let them gap close onto a target and kill without room for the target to fight back. Their untargetability is frustrating specifically because they're assassins. Now Admittedly, Gwen could build full ap and act as an assassin, but I still think the conditions of her mist makes it more fair in that case. For one thing, her untargetability isn't a gap closer, so she has to burn two cooldowns for the same result Fizz and Yi gain with one. But more over, her W also doesn't deal damage so now she has to commit all three basic abilities for the same effect as Fizz and Yi. And even then, getting a situation where Gwen is able to gap close and dump her damage while not allowing the enemy to fight back requires her to space perfectly and time her spells so that she lands at the edge of her mist without repositioning it but also in melee range of the target without going far enough that the target is also in the mist. It's not a challenger gated maneuver or anything, but it's harder than pressing one button for Yi and Fizz, uses all three of your cooldowns, and leaves your mist down for 22 seconds (down to 18 maxed last) vs 16 seconds for Fizz (down to 8 maxed first) or 20 seconds on Yi (down to 18 maxed first plus 1 second off for every auto attack)
Because Gwen's w isn't as obnoxious and free as fizz's e
Even when max levelled, Gwen’s W has a cooldown of 13 seconds, and she’s also a champion who is otherwise countered heavily by CC. She also has to position correctly for the mist to be impactful. Even with the resistances, the mist is fairly redundant if the opponent moves inside.
I think the good thing that keeps invincibility in check is that most of them are ultimate with very long cooldowns and there are time windows when you know the ability isn't going to be used, unlike untargetability which is, for the most part, normal abilities and can be used whenever.
That and invincibility usually has a lot of counter play built into the champs that have it.
Kindred's ult can go either way and she's squishy otherwise, Taric's ult is slow and Taric himself is pretty slow, Kayle has a long delay and she plays to scale herself, and Trynd has to all-in to do anything. It never feels cheap because you know it's possible to outplay these champs.
I think this argument hinges on the idea that you only have agency in the game once a fight begins.
not really. it should be obvious that the discussion revolves around agency during battle because thats when the abilities in question are going to be used. youre certainly not going to be talking about someone becoming invulnerable when they're actively not becoming invulnerable, that's not the topic at hand.
no one besides perhaps a brand new player is going to be activating their invulnerability when they ARENT in combat, ergo the conversation around invulnerability is inherently tied to a discussion about combat. Its premise isnt that you only have agency during a fight, its that what you do during that invulnerability is utterly limited due to the fact that they will ALWAYS be initiated during combat: you WILL be in combat when they happen
@@pokerusfreak8194 I think his point is more like, you have to take both into account before you engage, but Untargetability is a more effecient mindgame tool than Invulnerability, you can entirely deny any ability with Untargetability meaning that people will be more reluctant to throw them at you, while Invulnerability only deals with the dmg part of said ability.
Kayle ult just before you get grabbed by Blitz will still you leave you in the middle of 5 people afterwards meanwhile Fizz' E entirely negates this aspect
Untargetability is also featured on more basic spells which has significantly lowered cooldowns than ultimates (which from memory are the only spells which offer invulnerability). Zhonyas is an exception, has both combined, with the added caveat of you/others cannot do anything (even move). Not being able to cast is a downside of untargetability, but thats part of the spells skill expression in my opinion. Its arguable that much like yasuos windwall for mages, untargetability can make matchups with limited "oppurtunities" or counterplay virtually impossible. Malphite engaging on a vlad to setup a gank for example, would be near impossible. Im not saying it is unbalanced, but in certain matchups it alone can make them feel as such. If champions snowball, it exaggerates the limited outplay opportunities (samira/yi with untargetable duskblade haha). As you mentioned, invulnerability allows interaction, which in my opinion is healthier overall. Most untargetable champions can temporarily feel invulnerable if used correctly (skill expression), offering it an almost identical functionality at a fraction of the CD cost. Higher ranking players will manage/remove the drawbacks and "exploit" the positives in conjunction with the rest of their kit.
6:25 In the WHAT time, sir?
I know what he WANTED to say but yall hear it too right
that shit caught me off guard while i was doing laundry
in game where everything one shots you, i think both are actually required to make the game still viable, the only mistake i would say makes me question it's existence is on Fizz, like, can someone tell me again why an assassin has invincibility? hello? riot??? as if getting bursted down with 2 skills wasn't bad enough, the assassins gets a free ticket to safety on the same tool that he uses to assassinate? damn, love it when i can't LITERALLY counter the assassin that was supposed to be as squishy as an adc or mage because he has invincibility on a DASH.
Thats not Invincibility. Its Untargetability. Untargetable means nothing, not even CC connects or phases the enemy. Invincible(or Immortality), CC still works at least, and why Tryn isn't actually that scary.
@@Prince_Smugarina sorry you are right, i confused them, i won't edit the comment because you already explained, but you are right, so yeah, it makes my point even more valid, why give such things to such champions, is riot out of their minds?
fizz does not have good mobility if he gets on top of you, you did something wrong
@@lachsthesalmon1441 Fizz's E + Q can cross almost the entirety of midlane.
@@callmeriggy at most it's half that and q is not free target so he has to have atleast a minion wave for that. also if he used e + q just kill him he has no dmg after, if not fed
As a Tryndamere onetrick I agree 100% I wish nothing more than for any of my boys power budget be put into anything but his ult, like I don't get why it seems no one wants him to be reworked like I get shyvana and maybe noc but in my opinion he needs it more then anyone because it just feels unhealthy.
I think I can answer it. Tryndamere has a pretty dbasic playstyle as a melee aa. There are not many many champions left in that role and after seeing reworks like aatrox or aurelion sol where the playstyle changed so much, that they basically count as new champions I can see why many people don´t want them to change him.
Another big issue is that the ult is basically the defining character for tryndamere. Both in lore and in gameplay it's his thing so you need to keep it or you remove the essence of the character. But as long as you have that then how are you supposed to balance around that?
@@pandy3848well i understand that is a defying thing of the champion, but i mean in the lore he can't really do that (well until the last cinematic where he fought the kindreds) he is more like a wolverine kind of character who regenerates and gets more powerful the more angry he is, i think is pretty possible to balance him around it, like in Lor where his invulnerability is nowhere to be seen, just give him damage resistance with lower health and more regeneration and fury based gameplay
@@Uelibertiga I get what you're saying, but Olaf also has a very similar lore in that it's prophesized that he will never die in battle, yet this is incorporated into his kit in an infinitely better manner than a "don't die" button. Even just reducing the invincibility timer to 3 seconds and making it so he can only cast R at near full fury and doing so drains all fury would be a good start.
I would love a Shyvana, Tryndamere, and Vladimir rework. Shyvana probably needs it the least of the three.
The thrill of killing a champion after their invincibility skill end is kind of fun.
Miss Informing on tryndamere as usual, tryndamere isn't invulnerable when he uses undying rage, he's immortal, he takes the damage he just doesn't die, therefore you CAN lifesteal and out heal him, add in the fact that his only source of damage is a single damaging ability and Autoattacks.
You're right, invulnerability sucks, but comparing it to immortality, and the fact that tryndamere, If you're good at the game can be easily cc'd into irrelevancy makes the comparison unfair.
for me if its on a champion without dashes i am generally fine with it kayle never felt oppressive just because of her R but champs like fizz (really low cd) yuumi (has long has she has a champ on her team thats alive) and the biggest problem... Tryndamere R has he can just run u down with a slow if u run and massive healing free crit long dash great wave clear strong early and no "weak" time kayle is balanced to a weak early (only being "strong" at level 1) and easy to bully before 6 due to melee without dash and with a weak wave clear until level 11 yuumi is balanced on being just a bad champ with below avrage power level (due to the fact that if she is ok she is broken without counterplay) fizz is just not that strong and has a meh level 4-5 with a meh late game
taric is more dependent on team comp where if its insane engage vs burst or front to back he is insane but vs poke or zone or skirmish teams he does near nothing with it kindred is both ways and is the same where a good ult or good team to use with that ult its great but if its not the case its bad
Invincibility is fine on champions if its made in a way like kayle or taric or kindred but really bad in cases like yuumi and Tryndamere its really oppressive when they are strong in meta (like currently yuumi sucks and Tryndamere is really stupidly strong due to crit buff and items with crit being buffed) and ways like fizz is more gray area (and when a high movement speed build on a champion like kayle its makes her gray has well while if kayle is strong early she is very oppressive)
Invincibility is a good thing for a game has it gives counterplay thats not just cc if kayle is really behind (say for 20min+ she is hard ganked by both mid and jng even support and counterpicket and is dying under turret she still is a champ that can have that feels good play with R even if she hits like pool noodles with say 2/10/3 or even 0/15++ at 20min and a champion like pantheon can still go for a 2v1 and get out alive with maybe a kill or 2 if the enemy fks up and lets fiora have counterplay agains the tanks she is meant to win agains with there mass CC abilitys by sending it back to them)
Untargetability is objectively worse for the game
At least my Malz can always Nether Grasp an Ulted Tryndamere
Great editting dude!
Invincibility abilities have historically been really good. They are telegraphed, usually lower the DPS of the attacker and have myriad methods of counterplay. (It helps it is on ults all/the vast majority of the time)
Untargetability is the opposite, these abilities can be used on a whim, deal a ton of damage and have nonexistent counterplay besides the user being bad. Too many characters in this game are reliant on Point Click damage/CC to have untargetability exist all the time. It basically turns the game into a matchup simulator, where you hope you don't get countered by a character who nullifies you. This is why League is such a miserable game to play. Because a death or two early on, or a bad matchup means the game is effectively over. And then you have to sit through another 15 minutes of game where everyone says it's your fault for losing.
Imagine if avg time to end game wasn't be a 20 min. good times but hey tictok players now want games to end at 10 min so let''s up dmg x10 for all champs and boom now they playing in another moba but it's still called LoL.
Vars making it through a video without saying the word “pressure” challenge! (IMPOSSIBLE)
Invincibility while annoying I'm perfectly fine with, untargetability 100% needs real counterplay, and mobility needs more counterplay
What really makes untargetability feel awful is the champs that innately have it are almost always paired with inherent mobility, meaning not only do you have to wait it out...but 9/10 their gonna clear enough distance to get away once its over anyways...idk i feel having as much anti-tank/heal as we do, we should really see more anti-mobility and maybe even something anti untargetability
what champs are you talking about? all i can think of is vlad who does not have any mobility, fizz, where his untargetability is his only free target dash and mostly has to be used to engage and gwen which is the only champion these concerns apply to but even then she needs to already have gotten away from you to use it
@@lachsthesalmon1441 Zed R, ekko R, Kayn R, Rek'sai R, Shaco R are the ones off the top of my head
@@leeroyj7300so ults that have some form of downside?
Cannot imagine ever getting bored in a Vars video with how sonorous his voice is and how sophisticated and concisely he speaks :)
I'd rather my opponent be invincible than silence me, nothing on planet earth is less fun than dying because the way you "outplayed" me was turning all my buttons off
you wouldn’t like dota the. 😂
@@DarkPassenger918dota is more than just pressing buttons faster tho. A "guaranteed" disable isnt op there as they are in lol
I think Dota 2 is a really bad example for why invulnerability is bad since there are tons of ways to deal with it.
7:00 he is talking nonsense, he doesn't know that there's so many counters to it and you can even be killed while invulnerable or untargetable.
Tryndamere also having a bunch of movement speed and attack speed while he's using his Ult is so dumb. Playing the CC applying Tank often means going into melee - Leona, Nautilus, etc. - trying to stop him murdering your team means he just gets to auto-attack you. And once he's on top of you you have a really hard time actually running away from him as he's fast AND he can spin his way after you/through walls.
Not to mention that items he build are tank killers (aka everyone's killers)
and he slows you if you try to run away
that's why the ones supposed to managed a tryndamere using R are CC mages, either via slows, roots, or stuns
Then why you're not Grand Master if not challenger then?
The fact his E is so low cooldown is SO fucking dumb. At least you can "dodge" his slow you could argue, but his E? What the fuck do you even do?
I think that's a bad take. Invincibility is hardly an issue in league - it has been kept in check very well so far.
Firstly, it doesn't remove CC. That alone makes it WAY weaker than untargetability, because CC is the #1 tool to stop carries. Tryndamere has a very powerful kit AND he is a brutal stat checker than can 1v1 anything in the game.... and he still doesn't destroy pro-play/soloQ because as long as you can hit him with any CC or just retreat a bit, he loses all of his pressure.
Secondly, most invincibility skills have a timing component that the enemy can use to predict it. If a trynda player ults at full HP, they will waste their ult. If they hold too long, they might die and not ult. There is a fair amount of skill for both sides in this regard. Similarly, a Taric player needs to know when to ult to get the most benefit, and the enemy team can play accordingly, either through disengage or bursting down targets. Pantheon's invincibility is only partial, so I wouldn't count as such, it's closer to Braum's E. The only unconditional invincibility skill in the game is Kayle's ult - which used to be so underwhelming Riot had to buff it in her rework.
Maybe one day I think Riot might make a champion that will put this all in check, but so far the fact that it is considered a more expensive part of a champion's kit has kept things A-OK. Untargetability, because it's less expensive, ends up being more easily mishandled.
Playing a variety of games really puts League's balancing problems into perspective. I still love the game, but every day I get a little more frustrated towards champs like Tryndamere and Vladimir.
I think examples of good invulnerabilities are Pantheon W because of the factors already mentioned and Lissandra R because she has to choose between locking down an enemy champion or healing and protecting herself.
Fizz E is somewhere in the middle because it's very strong early game and a nightmare if he gets ahead, but he is more tolerable to deal with because of it's very short duration.
I don't think either status effect is worse for the game than the other, it totally depends on the ability's context.
Pant E is ok only when you look only on it without looking on Q-W-R and holy sheesh his W+Q with lethal items so broken and botrk with W before nerf Mmmm. So in his kit it's was broken bc he can press R landed press WQ oneshot ADC mage etc. and press E to run away. Fizz E same problem also problem with game engine bc when he get stuned during his Q charge and bc of queue after Q end he casting E in stun it's a big problem. Also Fizz have Q range same or bigger then all mages on midllane so if you going to pouke him or farm minions you insta getting his QW and he can just run away with E and only way to counterplay it's ability like QE combo on Syndra no other options bc his charge at you cannot be canceled like garen R in old times and like Rengar jump.
vlad pool is fine out of all of them tbh because it has such a long cd and he can't do anything during it.
fizz E doing the most damage in his kit + movement + wall hops + aoe + no cooldown even early game is just ridiculous
I really don't think invincibility is that bad. Riot knows it's extremely powerful, which is why they balance around it. Kayle's R is pretty short duration, Trynd can very easily just get chain CC'ed, and many champs can even kite him. Kindred R applies to everyone to make it more balanced. If you aren't able to play around these abilities, I think it's more of a skill issue honestly. Sure, it gives a huge advantage for a short while, but the same can be said with CC. A max distance Ashe arrow gives you 3 seconds of outputting damage, repositioning, escaping, chasing etc.
There are so many mechanics in league that reduces interactibility (Zhonyas, movement speed, dashes etc.). If you start removing these, you get a boring and flat game experience.
Agree on untargetability though. All the champs with it feel terrible to play against, same with Duskblade before it got removed.
Really enjoyed the video. But you never mentioned Fiora w (parry). Neither for untargetability nor for invincibility. Where does it fall and why was it not included?
These new edits are amazing. The Trynd visual was amazing
I've been watching your videos for some time now and they're awesome. I just want to take the opportunity to suggest a little change on your voice track. It's a bit too boomy/bassy, which could be for a variety of reasons, and it makes it hard for me to listen to your videos on my main system, which has a subwoofer. I know that a strong low end is common practice in this type of recordings, but if you're adding it through EQ, I strongly suggest dialing it down a bit. My guess for the problematic range is 60-120hz. Another cause could be "proximity effect", so I would try taking a bit of distance from the mic when recording and see what happens. Thanks and keep up the great work!
Why infinite scaling should not exist in LoL
Why invisibility should not exist in LoL
Why ability reset should not exist in Lol
These above are more cancer than invincibility
just need dota equivalent of dust. one complaint i have with lol is the lack of actives.
Whenever a title or headline asks a yes or no question, the answer is always no.
I feel that if LoL’s invuln abilities had more caveats like in Dota2 it may feel less of a problem. The big two I can think of are Omniknight and Oracle in D2. The prior only grants invuln to physical damage while the latter gives invuln for the current moment but you will take the full damage after the effect wears off. If there were some nuances in LoLs invuln skills it may make things a bit better.
The thing is Dota has way more option to deal with this types of abilities in the form of extended crowd control, as well as giving way to simple ignore the invul, for example Guardian angel is so easy to deal with by only having a single basic dispel like the infamous nullifier, and even Oracle's false promise is a very well designed ability since its not just invul with infinite amount of damage mitigation, it just makes you ignore the damage for up to 10 seconds, after that if you took more damage than you can handle you will die NO MATTER WHAT, no eul, no aeon, no shallow grave, NOTHING, thats why Oracle usually becomes a heal bot right aftef casting false promise since it usually becomes a race to see who heals or deals more damage to the hero with the invul.
And speaking of shallow grave, it tecnically can tank infinite amounts of damage but it still can be countered, thats why you see every single dazzle in existence perma banning axe from his games since shallow grave does nothing against getting dunked
Ps: I just remembered that Axe is another way of countering false promise cause if the enemy is already below the health threshold when saved Axe can just kill him ignoring anything else
This just reminds me how much i hate Kiriko's suzu
I largely agree, though I think you missed or unvalued the nuances of how the invulnerability is implemented case by case. I would say that invulnerability with no counterplay or trade off should be removed, rather than the status entirely. You touch on this yourself, with pantheon/kindred vs kayle/tryndamere.
Kayle and tryndamere can hit a button and be invincible for several seconds with no downside or counterplay. In other words; for a few seconds they enter a state where they are at a massive advantage with no outplay potential for the enemy, beyond the regular tactics they already had at their disposal.
Kindred and pantheon, however, have trade-offs. Pantheon can’t cast other abilities or autoattack, and his movement speed is reduced, AND he’s only invincible from one direction. This means that he can actually be at a disadvantage if an enemy gets behind him, despite being ‘invincible’. Kindred applies invincibility in an area, so the same advantage state is applied to enemies / allies / neutrals. An advantage applied equally to all sides is no longer an advantage. When used incorrectly it can actually hurt kindred. If you’re facing a sett or a vayne, you have to expect them to immediately powerslam ypu back out of your own zone of safety. There’s outplay potential here that isn’t necessarily out of the enemy’s control.
tldr; invulnerability is fine, but it should be conditional and used in ways so as not to provide the user a hard ‘advantage’ state completely beyond the opponent’s ability to control.
""Kayle and tryndamere can hit a button and be invincible for several seconds with no downside or counterplay." What is CC? Or what is Nasus W or what is Malz R and etc? You can outplay them by pick and thats your problem if your team is stupid and didn''t take good CC champ. In such logic Yi is imba.
Kindred is just broken is some situations and in others it's can ruin Kindred game so yeap it's balanced but it's still same as trund but in area and if it''s Nashor or Elder you still would stay in this zone bc you don't want to lose object. Panth have broken WQ combo and E just letting him press flahs wq on adc and don't die for that so with his burst rn it''s broken in some situations and not in rare situation like fight near Nashor or Elder that is can happen once or twice in the game.
@@BlackJackSincroknight yes and if u need to save cc just to get counter an ult how is that not a issue. All trynd has to do if u dont cc him then 1 shot him is spam E towards you click on you then ur dead in like 2 seconds maybe
@@basicname1555 I guess some adoptologist will say skill issue, but cmon that is just cancer design. But at least some people playing trynd and he doesn't have fking 56%+ winrate to get nerf. Just imagine only thing that counters him is silence and we only like 4 champs with silence? Soraka, cho, kass and I don't remember last one. Imagine if silence was an option in summoner spells or items, that would give opportunity to play against him on limits and trynd would became much harder to play on.
I will say this
Taric's ult requires prety good timing and awareness by teammates.
Kayle's ult is very strong but Kayle is literally not a champion for 80% of the game
Tryndamere however is strong during pretty much all stages of the game except argueably teamfights. His ult is just pure statcheck bullshit.
thought i heard something very wrong at 6:24 lol
I think this habilities help people think ways to deal with them. You don't have to think of your combo, you also have to know how to deal with those unfair habilities.
Fir example, you can out trade a Darius with a Malphite if you just save the Q for after he uses E, you just get away, the W isn't enough to compensate for the mv speed you gain and he looses.
Once you understand how an enemy champion works, you can deal with them. Yiu just have to worry how the enemy addapts to you knowing how to deal with them afterwards, but they normaly just keep trying and failing.
6:22 I know you meant "nick off time" buuuuuuut 😭😭😭
I would love to see a video where you discuss arena. How it introduces the mechanics vs stats conundrum and why this causes certain champions to be far stronger in (an average) arena game.
I would argue that xin's invincibility has more in common with Gwen than with kayle or taric
I didn't even realize it was invincibility, I thought it was Gwen mist but with a knockback stun on all but his chosen target.
@@hiurro he can still get hit with cc, but otherwise same thing
It's as you said at the end of the video, the problem isn't with invincibity as a concept, but almost every champ with access to it can still move completely freely (except for Pantheon, who is by far the least problematic of them imo). Compared to untargetability, where using those abilities severely limits your options, invincibility should also put way more restrictions on the champions using them, so it doesn't just become a game of stalling the enemy for as long as possible while he still has his full kit available. So rather than being a fundamentally broken mechanic, Riot just hasn't given it enough counterplay through the inherent design of the ability, which would make this mechanic a lot more palatable.
Edit by Breexy never lets me down, fucking love it every single time
I feel like the champions with invincibility are much more obvious to outplay.
Its harder to outplay gwen when she presses w and runs at your adc while throwing her ult
Im okay with both tbh. It just changes how you play the game and interact with some champions
Sure theyre frustrating, especially when fed but its honestly not hard to find counterplay in most siuations.
We might need another durability patch tho.
They must nerf dmg not hp they just doing it everytime bc they stupid. Last patch torch is broken -> Let's nerf all champs who using it and after 3-4 patches they will nerf torch and this champs will suck they will add them more dmg then before and now we have more dmg in the game and WOW it''s already how many years after they add mythics bc thats start from that stupid idea and they start nerfing champs after a couple of patches they nerf item and now champs suck and now they overbuff them and after that happend they making crazy numbers but here we go another items get buffed to much and now we in cycle! They just don't want to fix stuff bc they stupid maybe Idk.
10:00 That's also why I believe something like Zhonyas should put everything you are doing in stasis, pausing everything, so if you're a Morde for an example with his passive active it should stop spinning and not tick down or do damage basically freezing it in time, if you're have minions they should also get put into stasis, also your cd should not tick down either, I honestly wish that they would literally make Zhonyas act like time is completely stopped for you, and everything that's happening to you will be frozen in time, meaning if you were gonna die to ignite, you'll still die to ignite unless you get bailed out by your team.
Kayle used to be locked out of attacking/casting during her ult, except for like the last .5seconds of her rank 3 ult i think?
Yes but they changed it and WOW now she broken bc before that change they nerf her myth item and now we don't have them in the game but dmg to balance already done.
Big amount of work in this video, including the insane edit animations, thank you for this nerdy stuff 🤓❤️
Came for the Xin Zhao mention, stayed for the analysis. Thank you for saying the thing
Having it as an ult, for a limited time or after a "long" cast is understandable not to say fine, but having it instantly on a basic skill, is not, just give Pantheon a normal shield and everything would be better
Fizz, Zed and other ASSasins who can just press 1 button and now your CC can''t reach them specialy funny when you Leona who hit fizz with Q and after that he cast E in stun. Or zed who casting his ult after Vayne E in wall and etc.
Pantheon literally has the most counterplay out of all invincible and untargetable champions
I’m curious to see if Riot changes it so that causing cc effects on invincible champions would end the invincibility. I’m mainly thinking like Tryn R, Kayle R and Taric R. Kindred is limited by having it be in the fixed location, still very busted but not as much as the others.
kindred an tryndamere dont have invincibility but immortality
which may look the same but immortality almost always leave the champion at death's door afterwards, and damage still goes through if it isn't lethal damage.
@@CoqueiroLendarioin theory you'd be right but both just mean "Impossible to kill"
@@SawyerFan.1 If they are both at low HP then sure, they both work the same way, but the invulnerability of kayle's ult or taric's ult can be used more proactively instead of reactively, to block a burst that they know its coming instead of just preventing people from finishing the other off
Invulnerability = can be used both proactively and reactively.
Immortality = can only be used reactively.
Technically not true as kindred says you can not fall below a certain hp threshold. If there is elder drag in play you can still kill under lambs respite.
In theory if any health execute gets above the 20% threshold if i recall if can kill. You could check with something like asol but I'm not gonna bother.
Couldn’t agree more… also I feel like they could do some really menacing and cool stuff with a potential new Kayle or trynda ult
The only invulnerability I have a problem with is Tryndamere's because there's no way to outplay it. You can't even cc lock him and burst him because for some godforsaken reason he is allowed to use it while cced. All the others you have some kind of counterplay.
Taris R is so delayed, most teams can easily disengage or kill him before it starts.
Kayle R became more of a problem sincee the buff that made her able to act for most of its duration, but it's still single-target and you can cc lock her and kill her before she's able to use it since she's sqishy.
Kindred R also makes the enemy team invulnerable, so it can also backfire massively. You can also use displacements to remove someone from the invincible zone.
you mentioned Phanteon was the frist champ to have Invincibility on a basic ability but isnt fioras w also a state of Invincibility since she can be targeted
Fiora's W is weird in that it's not actually invincibility, rather it sets all dmg to 0 and ignores crowd control effects lol
just love how it is chilled video with clean edit 🤌🤌🤌
6:30 WeLl AcTUalLy you forgot about bard. great vid tho
I really wonder how would be Kayle without the invincibility, they would really need to rework the entire champion, they would either need to gigabuff her early game and make her even crazy strong late game in order to not get one shoted in any point of the game like add more base health and health scaling, add more armor and magic resist and etc or they would need to rework the champion as a whole
The main reason why I think untargetability is worse than invincibility, is invincibility is reserved for ultimates only (not counting Pantheon's E, as it's not actual invincibility), while untargetability is always a basic ability, meaning they have a 15-20 second cooldown at most, while invincibility ultimates, even in late-game with a bunch of Ability Haste and at max level, easily have at least a 50 second cooldown, meaning that in every fight, invincibility can only be used once as a free get-out-of-jail card, untargetability may be used more times in that same fight.
I agree invincibility is so un fun I ban Kayle every game now. I mean when he couldn't attack while in Ult it was bearable but now holy shit
your whole argument about about invincibility being a advantage state where your opponent can't come up on top of is strange considering a lot of abilities work like that. Everything point and click like veigar ult, or annie q, or auto attacks? Advantage for them that you (unless you have invincibility, unmarketability, or some whey to delete projectiles) has nothing you can do against it. You could also put all hard cc into that category as long as it hits.
But like the examples above invincibility is far from being a win game button, and although being a advantage state where the enemy can't come up ahead, there is the macro gameplay of planning, vision, positioning, etc that plays in to how effective invincibility is, just as all other abilities work.
It's almost like thats how abilities work right ? His whole argument sounds he like just got skill gapped by a tryndamere lmao
damage has counter play wich is resistances and health (barring max health true damage wich usually is tied to a condition)
Yesh, it's basically one form of "super ultimates" which are incredibly strong when used correctly.
@@dreamergamer9291 damage counter play -> resistance heal health, invincibility counter play -> save your cooldowns for after it
@@dreamergamer9291All counterplay against damage (except killing them first) also works against invulnerability?
If the opponent isn't dealing much damage or killing you then their death being delayed by x seconds won't matter as much.
I personally think that it is ok to have that, but they should have a condition to use it. Like on tryndamere, that he can only use it if on full rage bar and it consumes the ragebar, so its just used to flee or something like that. On kayle I think its ok because she cannot attack half of the time of the invincibility
Ideas :
-Kayle : can only ult herself and can't use other abilities during the cast
-Taric : rework and completely remove his ult so he can have a real kit
-Tryndamere : rework
-Xin : can only dodge auto attacks with ult
Kindred : it's not that bad
sooo basically old kayle ult?
Old kayle ult was terrible and a waste of power budget
@@dracotoy exactly, it was more of self-cripple than help
@@dreamergamer9291 old kayle was the opposite of what I said, she can deal damage with autos and the ult does no damage, what I suggested is kayle can't deal damage but the ult does
@@Caesar-LXIX thats what her rework ult was, and again, it was atrocious
simply making it so that invulnerability doesnt work on towers would do wonders. That was they can't just tower dive you with impunity. And only late game when tanks can take alot of tower shots will it matter if you let those champs get ahead.
12:28 Mars on kinda Dota 2 already have something similar where his shield is a toggle ability where you take 60% less dmg from the front and 35% less dmg from the side but at the cost of slowing him down
Isn't a lesser damage reduction effect always active, but using the toggle grants the full effect while locking his facing position like braum wall?
breexy and vars = the best combo :3
i don't mind invincibility because riot realize its busted so it's usually an ults with long cd
untargetability and other similar stuff like samira/yasuo wind wall on the other hand is problematic because
1 - they block cc which invincibility can't so you can argue it's actually stronger than invincibility
2- adc for example I can't just buy an item that turns me into a melee champion that penetrate wind walls
so it would blocks 100% of my damage, it's literally invincibility. but it has much shorter cooldown because "it has a weakness"
but the game is made in such a way that it's impossible to capitalize on said "weakness" pass champion select
Invincibility is fine, currently i think all champions with invincibility are balanced around that invincibility or the invincibility is changed or tweaked itself. For example kindred, the balance for kindred's invulnerability is that enemys can also be invulnerable too, all invulnerability currently has either a drawback, a limit, or is part of their balance
I don't think all invulns are a problem nor even really most. As long as there is a realistic avenue to do something to them I think they are great. The only two who really are just problems are Kayle and Tryndamere. They both are just fully invincible and no real condition applied. Each has a ridiculous advantage to there own invuln as well, kayle can give hers to another player if they are better for the current teamfight, or lets say in case the difference of winning or losing a teamfight is not letting a kat reset her abilities. On the other hand tryndamere cannot be stopped from ulting and that is ridiculous, at least with the ult being only tied to a cooldown, itd be different if he had to be at max rage to use it, or is forced to use it like a gnar transformation when at full rage, but nah just gets to use it whenever convenient. Kindred, Taric and Pantheon all have at least relatively fair invulns and something to exploit within them. Kindred gives it to anyone in her area, so you can even use this to your advantage and knock her away with something like a lee sin or poppy ult and take her ult from her effectively, Taric has a windup to his invuln, meaning you have a window to burst high priority targets before the invuln triggers, and Pantheon as you said only has invulnerability from a certain direction and his doesnt shield him from tower shots. Ultimately its not that the invulns need to be shorter even, just that they need a opening like these 3 champs give to the opponent a chance to make a play.
Where is this ost from? I recognize it so much, almost sounds like star rail
I totally agree with your last statement, if i can't hurt you, you shouldn't be hurting me, that's balance
Tryndamere gains death immunity not invincibility. Though seemingly functionally the same, what makes it different is that he still takes damage but it stops him from going below a health threshold. What it does is extends his ability to stay in a fight, not preventing anything other than his own death. It’s a game of chicken both before he casts it and during the cast. Cast it early and the value of the 5 seconds is reduced, too late and he dies before he can cast it. Then, if you cant kill your opponent quick enough, how much duration is left before he leaves or should he commit and risk dying shortly after. Honestly, he would be better off without it, but do you guys really want his power budget to allow him to gain a different form of sustain and rather than a squishy melee ADC, he ends up as another scrappy skirmisher or a crit based fighter like the wind brothers? I like the fact that the primary skill expression on tryndamere is the ult timing. Having these “unfair” mechanics gives the game a bit more nuance, otherwise every champion will become very samey just using the same recycled mechanics even more so than it already is.
immunity to destructon in yugioh isnt the best "invincibility thing" you can get
I think invincibility should be an hp threshold. Like you can get damage. But you can't get under 20%.
This way an early invincibility usage would still incentify damaging the character. And a late one would incentify jumping on him as soon as he come out of it. Healing them would also be somewhat of a good idea if people flee him. Wich could make people stop fleeing them to keep him low.
The brief period where Duskblade made you Untargetable was hell on earth
I like Kindred's invulnerability more than anyone else's, and even if all other invuln were removed, I think stasis (zonya's, bard R) should stay along with Kindred. Kindred's ult is favored by Kindred's team because they get to decide when it happens, but EVERYTHING in K's ult is invincible, and EVERYTHING is healed at the end. I think that adds a lot more depth than, for instance, Kayle, who just says "nope" to her or one of her teammates dying.
edit: I don't play ranked and only play this game casually, mostly norms with friends. My friends who do play ranked say that my skill is around low gold, so my opinion might not be all that good
Only problem is that I doubt you or anyone else will convince Riot to remove Kayle's Invincibility. It's too iconic to remove. You could make it so it's only targetable on herself and she can't do anything, but that feels underwhelming. One possible (if long-winded) suggestion would be this: On activation, Kayle surrounds herself with 5 holy swords and begins as invincible. For 2.5 seconds, if she doesn't use an ability (or auto-attack, but I'm iffy on that), she is completely invulnerable to any damage. However, she can also press R up to 5 times for each sword to attack with them (similar to Irelia's old ult in function). Each sword used reduces the damage mitigation (to a minimum of, say, 60% at 0) but increases the duration by .5-1 second per sword used. Swords that are unused at the end of the ult, or if any other ability is used, will be thrown out in an AoE attack akin to how her current ult ends, with damage based on how many swords are left. If the ult is used on someone else, it's basically the same as her current ult but with only 80% mitigation at most instead of complete invincibility.
Also, the damage at the end of the ult vs. using all the swords up would likely be comparable so that you aren't overly incentivized to use one or the other.
Tryn I wouldn't say much given he should be re-worked, but possibly it's only full invuln if he's at max rage BEFORE activating his ult (for a shorter duration), or there's some level of self-slow based on damage taken during the ult. The latter doesn't sound that great either, but I don't have a lot of options.
As for Taric...probly just make it a huge defense aura buff, I guess?
i just watched 14 minutes of a video that amounts to "im piss low and i cant figure out how to layer cc in my fights!" lmaoooooooooooo
Because you can only complain about something if you're bad? Pro players complain all the damn time fuck you mean?
@@VarsVerum dude feels good about himself bitching like this in comments sections meantime hes probably hardstuck wood rank xD
@@mrjamezjc9845 Wait r u talking about me or OP lol
6:25 in the what? 😂
"In the nick of time" but yeah lmao 💀💀
@@NiXx2863 XD
When I think about the champions with invincibility, they are annoying because of the invincibility otherwise they don’t feel very strong but when I think about champion with untargetability, they are scary for the rest of their kit, not the brief moment they don’t exist.
This is why to me the power budget argument is a good one, make the champions all round kit feel better instead of having one saving grace, I think kindreds is a great example on how to do it well, it affects the enemies as well, but they put so much of her power budget into her últ and passive that without both working correctly it’s just painful
Also I much prefer enemies being intangible so I can’t target them on accident and waste spells
I disagree. Kindreds ult is perfectly fine. Sure it makes kindred immune...but it also does the same to enemies. You can push them out of it, ect. Its fine.
Kayle are is fine. Kayle had that ult before her rework and didnt have those issues, its just how they tried to force her to scale.
Tryndas ult sucks though and is defeintly a problem. Same with Taric.
You came off very biased in this video, you never talked about the weaknesses of each of these effects. Taric with a huge delay for instance.
So kayle ult is fine but tryndas is not? What a joke
@@JackiEEEEEEE The differnce is the duration. Kayles ult lasts 2.5 seconds, Trynda is 5.
Not to mention Trynda can ult even while CCed by a malz ult, Kayle can not ult while she is CCed.
The differnce is application and duration.
Finaly, thought the exact same thoses chooseen exemple are terrible ( kindred lol)
Untarget is way worse than short invinvibility in général.
Except trinda thoses who have invulnérability have a huge downside either on the spell itself either on the all kit design
If I had to choose one I’d say invincibility is worse. I think a good way of balancing it is actually to make towers ignore it, but too many players would complain about loosing it. I personally would also be upset as someone who mains kindred. I love their ultimate and it would be a shame if it got removed, and personally do not think it takes too much power budget from their kit because of its conditions. Can’t say the same about other champions of course.
Huge props to the editing, the visuals in this video were amazing!
Props* not probs. Saying probs sounds like there are PROBlemS with the editing. Props on the otherhand is slang for giving thanks or respect.
As a Taric otp i have to say that Tarics ult shouldnt be even compared to other ones from this video. because the point of "youre invincible and can do anythink you want" applies in theory theres few thing balancing it out. you have to somehow stay alive as a whole team for the same duration as invicibility before it goes off, and you have to make sure enemies wont just back down the moment you use it. its really hard to actually use it, nad theres so many thing that can go wrong while others just press the button in the middle of a fight and laugh in your face.
Being untargetable is worse because its a more commonly used mechanic and is functionally the same where the only exception is DoTs/effects on the target before they become untargetable.
Also "invincible" champs are not invincible, they're damage immune. They can still be controlled and affected. Untargetable champs cannot be stunned, rooted, slowed, displaced because they're untargetable.
The context in which untargetable is used is also really fucking awful in league, a lot of champs with untargetable have the trait tied in with mobility (fizz), heals (Viego) or damage (Gwen & Kayn). Its as if the idea that an ignite or Zed ult could *in theory* kill them while they're in their untargetable state means they don't need the caveates tied to say, kayle ult (long cooldown, limited effect, used to disable auto attacks, still vulnerable to CC and displacement)
0:06 naw that is cursed
6:40 - Kench's ult is an untargetability skill that can be applied to someone else
Taric: World's longest windup
Kindred: It goes both ways
Tryndamere: Stat check: do you have the stat "Good CC Ability?" If not, you lose.
Fizz: Zhonya's on a 6s cooldown
Xin Zhao: Anti-ADC
Still can be CC and after last patch Renata W is counterpalay against Xin bc adc now have Assasin dmg burst in the same time with their AA.
When I heard him explaining how the abilities are balanced, being a Trynd main, I was eeally excited to leaen something new about him 😂 10:56 But no lol that's a pretty fair assessment
It's why I loved the second iteration of Taric's old ultimate Radiance; does AoE magic damage and gives him and nearby allies a boost in AP and AD for 10 seconds. While it was admittedly Old League, it was easy enough to rework for today's League. Either pull a K'Sante where he sacrifices his armor for bonus AP or have it do AoE magic damage while enemies are inside (akin to Sunfire) for 5 seconds, but he's slowed down and has a very long CD . Given he has a stun in his kit already, the latter would be more impactful. Granted, given Sunfire Aegis, I don't see an ult like that happening. It'd be better than his terrible ult that takes away from what made him good in his old iteration: an anti-AD healing tank.
As for Invulnerable vs. Untargetability, I'll take untargetability. While annoying, it's easier to counter play against.
Most people would probably say invulnerable is way more annoying but it is just because its more balanced than invincibility meaning it is more present too, there is a lot of counterplay to invulnerability but there is legit none other than litteral perma cc for invincibility
To be honest, is not so much the untergetability itself, is the champions that have them. The reason why Viego is such a coin flip is because once he gets the passive resets, you cannot do ANYTHING. Fizz is so frustrating is that he can run at you and burst you OR run away WHILE dashing. The only way to attack Gwen is being inside her circle, which is exactly what she wants.
It's the K'Sante dilema. By themselves, the abilities may not mean much, but together makes the champion very annoying.
where is the strawpool in description
The most frustrating thing about untargetability is losing tower aggro at least invincible targets continue to get shot and the dmg ramps up
I only really agree with Xin Zhao (in a similar vein to Gwen), Tryndamere, Taric, and Kayle invulnerability being bad for the game.
I think Pantheon E already feels like a counter ability and doesn't really have core issues, though I wouldn't be opposed to your suggested change. It has clear windows that make it strong and is part of what keeps Pantheon's scaling fine enough.
I think Lamb's Respite is really interesting because it's multi faceted and I'm glad it is in the game. It's an AOE field meaning displacing anyone in it will not apply the effect to them, it has a heal component at the end, and it can effect Kindred's enemies too. I view it like Bard ult in that way and I think once again there are clear windows where it is strong and it can easily whiff too.
The rest could use some kind of harder commitment to a Paladin archetype rather than just letting them not die. Xin Zhao and ESPECIALLY Tryndamere don't really fit into modern League and imo the reworks for Kayle and Taric were not successful.