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Rather than "Win More" cards I would tend to call these kind of doublers as "Turbo Chargers", as their purpose usually is to turbo charge your engine. The main thing to realise is that in settings like commander where you have multiple opponents you need to take down compared to the normal dual style setup, you tend to need more than just edging slightly ahead against a single opponent, and instead either politic you into a winning position, have a special win condition, or just pop off enough that you are far enough ahead that you can directly close the game. Turbo chargers are used for that latter part, as they offer a way to outrace others in terms of building up your position. Basically they are there to break the stalemate, and in that sense serve a similar purpose to boardwipes, but instead of being played when you are behind, they are what you play when you are ahead to push toward victory. For small tokens, it really depends what you use them for, but if you are using weak ones in combat you tend to need some kind of critical mass with them, for the simple reason that otherwise they would just get blocked off and eaten withou any significant impact. Such tokens tend to have a lot of them die as part of the actions they take to be useful, and unless you can produce your tokens fast enough you are going to be restricted in using them for much for quite a few turns until you have build up that critical mass. Even when you have them, you are going to end up being much more conservative and make choices on what to use them for when you cannot produce them super fast, and even when you can that churn on them eats into how fast you can go from "I can do stuff with them" to "Now I can do something critical with them". A token double will tend to help a lot in pushing you above those treshholds for churn and critical mass, and make the slight buildup after churn being become a fast buildup instead. As for using an +X/+X overrun with those tokens, then even if you get them to 10/10s and there are no blockers you will only do 80 damage with them, which is super overkill for a normal magic game, but in commander your opponents have 120 life amoung them so it is not even enough to close it out. That huge combined life pool is part of why they are not overkill in that format, but probably would be in a typical 1v1 20 life 60 cards constructed format. As for trigger doublers/scalers (rullings says they add linearly if you have more of them), they have the potential to be even more powerful than token doublers. One part of this is timing, where triggers tend to be more ongoing and such can more directly help you with already is on the board, compared to just helping further spells be more powerful, and as such they tend to not end up slowing you down the same way and can work better as finishers. For instance if you pop a roaming trone down in an aristocrat deck, you might go from a threating boardstate to simply ending the game, and some combos might go extreme there. Another part of why they are more powerful is that they can more than double the total effect of things, especially when you have things that chain triggers in some way. Say you have something that creates a token when you attack and another that triggers on enter the battlefield or when something dies and you have a good sack outlet. If you double your triggers you get twice the tokens, but you also have that each of those tokens each trigger the enter the battlefield triggers twice and they also trigger the dies effect twice when used for sacking. This means you get about 4 times the value on the enters or dies triggers, which are probably what you were looking for. If you somehow have a 3 step trigger setup of some kind, such as a commander that makes tokens with say an attack trigger, an enter or dies that give life and a trigger on gaining life, that last trigger could happen 8 times normal. An example would be vampire aristocrat deck with a Blood Artist a Marauding Blood Priest a sac outlet and a Charismatic Conquer (or something else that can make a token by trigger, like Edger Markov), then a single token trigger would give you 1 token you could sacrifice for 2 damage to someone and 1 life gain, but with just a single Roaming Throne in addition, it would mean that a single base trigger would instead give you 2 tokens (or in this case guarentee 1 as they would only be able to pay the tap cost for one of the triggers), then when you sack them you would gain 4 life and be able to do 12 damage. That is such a huge difference that one wo.uld be just a small annoyance and the other would be a dangerous threat, and that all is just the base case. The thing to realise is that trigger doublers effectively makes you count your board twice in terms of how many cards you have, which means that as soon as you have the basic components you need, or even just the minimum able to give some value, then it quickly becomes more valuable to play a trigger doubler than practically anything else in terms of advancing your board state. For instance that marauding Blood Priest could have been replace with a Roaming Throne, and you would have been double as effective in terms of sacrifice anyway, and that is only measuing the damage part, everything else would also generally be better off. Anyway, since commander is a singleton format there is just not that many all that good overrun effects to use as game enders, and if you have to dig through 100 cards to find your 2-3 options, you are going to need to draw a ton of cards before you can close a game with them. These doublers on the other hand expand your good options, and while they might not be as strong direct win conditions, they tend to stick around longer and just put you in a winning position. A lot of this basically comes down to these games being harder to close and as such giving more time until they close, which in turn means that it makes more sense to use more resources on scaling up your power. This is also why draw and ramp is so much more abundant in commander, as without them it is hard to keep up with the power scaling, whereas they are a lot more optional in normal duel style game formats, as it is possible to kill others before that becomes that much of a concern.

I am a brewer at heart. I build so many decks so my friends who can't afford to play have a variety to borrow from.

Here is the thing though, coming from MOBAs, win more strategies are generally referring to item builds that are only good because you're already in the lead but that doesn't mean they aren't worthwhile to engage with. I'll use a rather simple example from League Of Legends. There is an item you can buy at the start of the match without really costing you anything early on. Every time you score a kill you get 2 stacks up to 10 stacks, when you die you lose 5 stacks (you can't go into the negative). For each stack you get more power and you can upgrade the item to something more powerful that can get as many as 20 stacks but you'll lose 10 if you die. This is a win more strategy but it's also the best value for resources you can get in terms of raw numbers. I kinda view it the same in card games. Win More cards can be amazing when used correctly even in cases when they don't seem necessary.

For the ojer axonil deck, one thing that i really liked was including equipments like Glamdring or Runechanter’s Pike. It would make it so each time you cast an instant/sorcery, his power would increase by one, making storming off this much easier! It might be a bit slower thought…

Okay guys, hear me out, we start off with a blue-green deck, then we ramp and draw cards- wait where are you going?

totally disagree. the more tokens you make, the more valuable annointed processions gets. this is simple maths, if I can drain the table for 8, well nice, but if I drain the table for 16, that could be game ending instantly. commander is about snowballing, not being a low threat. sure an akromas will is better sometimes, but when my strategy involves creating massive amounts of tokens to sac them and ping my opponents, an annointed procession WILL MAKE ME WIN MORE. So in my opinion, winning more is a good thing. You could also argue that akromas will is a "win more" card, because if I have 3 4/4 angels, they are already strong. However, casting an akromas will makes them twice as dangerous, which equals your win more argument.

Stormsplitter dosnt trigger off of storm triggers right

Will you do a deck build video where you build it in real time please.

I know its not commamder but some of my most potent easy to run brawl decks are mono colored.

I liked the video, and I do think people overvalue doublers from time to time, myself included. On the other hand saying a spell which gives you an extra combat (doubling it to two if its the only extra combat you have) isn't "Win More," but every single doubler is, seems a bit hypocritical. I mean by all measures Aggravated Assault should be a "win more" spell, too, right? Here's some similarities between the spells you used as an example for Otharri: -Enchantment that can be benefited from across multiple turns -Doesn't work if you lack the resources it effects, which for both seems to be your commander -Both are hard countered by boardwipes but will retain their usefulness as long as you can rebuild your board state -Effectively doubles the power of creatures you control on the board -Can stack with similar effects The big difference, which you point out, is that one lets you capitalize on your board state more. By doubling how many combats you have. Which doubles how many triggers your commander gets. Which doubles how many tokens you have. Which nets you a whopping.... 9 extra damage over playing Roaming Throne. And that's only if you ignore the fact that, given you hit all your land drops, you would only be able to activate Aggravated Assault on turn 6 whereas Otharri could come down on turn 5 and benefit from a doubler immediately due to haste. Also ignoring the fact that Roaming Throne costs half as much if you need to cast and activate Aggravated Assault on the same turn. The damage difference does increase and can run away very quickly in Aggravated Assault's favor, but that's assuming your board isn't touched or your spell isn't countered. Roaming Throne, on the other hand, has the advantage of being able to be brought back by the many resurrection effects white has access to. All this considered, Roaming Throne is probably better if you want to get yourself off the ground fast and is a little more robust, but Aggravated Assault lets you build your board state up a little faster and is better in the long run. You could also just... play both.... there's nothing wrong with having a fallback option if your first gets removed. Plus, if you have both out, that's 4 Otharri triggers.

Hi what’s the difference between high power and cedh? I have a budget cedh deck that doesn’t include the best cards but still can go infinite by turn 4 and other stuff like win instantly and stuff so what do I do? Is that cedh or high power

Interesting point but have considered I enjoy making long turns with no consequences

Honestly feels like mono color is the “last frontier” of having actual deck constraints in commander. Every color can do so much that most 2 color combos are too well rounded, and certainly every 3 color deck can.

step one, give cap deathtouch. step two, kill three creature.

How do i block on TH-cam so i dont see bad takes like these again?

Played with my Zinnia deck yesterday and Anointed Procession solo won me the game. Made a ton of token and boosted them with Porcelain Gallery just to kill all my opponents with an army of 65/65 😂

I dont know why you would call Shamanic Rev as a win-more - its just a card advantage with higher ceiling than straight draw three, but less reliable. And in some cases its a neccessary option to fill out uour draw section of the deck. Token doublers I agree though - Marneus Calgar deck (WH40000) does only have one in a form of that Phyrexian Dominus just because I traded with my friend for cards he needed. Its nice to double some useful squad tokens, but yeah, 10 or 20 1/1 Soldiers dont really matter - deck wins by attrition of sorts.

4:00 was agreeing until u mentioned trigger doubles. Insane hard disagree the difference between and tribal or w/o roaming throne on board is insane. Its not win more its a win card.

It's interesting to read a lot of the disagreeing comments on this. I don't feel coming up with specific examples that prove a single narrow scenario are good examples of showing that AP or any doubler or win more card isn't in fact a win more card. Its the totality of the average result, not the outliers that make it a win more card. if you need to cast your four or five cost doubler and then another card to two to give it value, that's a big mana investment. It's not optimal and may be fun but the argument is "why didn't you just play a better card" even an on theme card. I actually disagree with Deck Driver on Hapatra. I feel that even Hapatra follows the rule that Deck Driver outlines. if you have a doubler out, then attack with Hapatra to put a -1-1 counter and then make two snakes, It seems like you got value out of it but it isn't optimal or even flavorful. You could have just cast Soul Snuffer and dumped way more tokens than two on to the field. There are several cards that enable this type interaction for Hapatra and most interactions on average for her provide higher snake output than a token doubler would have done. It's the input effect that we're abusing with most good token makers (making more triggers), not the output effect of making more tokens. in this case, abusing the output effect with a token doubler is a win more scenario because you should already be abusing the input effect which makes a doubler pointless. great vid Deck Driver!

I like where you are coming from but as a prossh player the difference between 6 kobolds or 12 kobolds off of 1 cast (parallel lives) is a potential game ender depending on the board, or at least end a 1 player.

Oh no communication is hard learn to have conversations.

I bought the Aminatou precon to get into Commander so this is basically exactly my deck. xD

I think the important factor of "win more" is whether or not the primary purpose of your deck is served or not. If you produce 16 tokens instead of 8, you have 8 additional power on the board, but an overrun effect in that spot would do more for aggro. However, in a situation with something like phyrexian alter, thats 8 more mana of any color to your pool, making it better for combo. Its also more blockers and easier to recover from a wipe. Likewise, cards that draw for each creature you have in play are better if you have an instant/sorcery focused token deck. Whats important is to look through a deck you are playing and asking yourself if there are cards that are outside the value you associate your deck having with them. Do you always have a full hand when you draw your regal force? Can you never find that forest in 1/5 games with your green heavy deck? Maybe swap some of the less effective engines for some cards that better suit the deck as a whole. One of the things i see a lot in my playgroups is light removal so for me a board wipe sometimes serves as a reset that i can utilise to recover faster than everyone else with things like token doublers or reanimator

My Awaken the Blood avatar deck needs all the tokens i can get

Sadly, with how simple, yet powerful her effect is, she will be added to those decks that have a "Solved" decklist... where pretty much everyone agrees that playing the deck with List A. is outright better than playing with any other list. I don't know about everyone else, but I stay away from those decks because most of the deck building agency is done for you & since they are strong commanders, everyone assumes when you lay the commander on the table that you are automatically playing the list they heard about that can kill the table by turn X. She will become another Exta Turn spells - Edric, Spymaster of Trest or Narset, Enlightened Master with a never-ending combat step.

Good overview, but card draw is integral in reaching consistency and that wasn't addressed. 8-10 sources of card draw is huuuge.

These doublers aren’t win-more cards, they’re straight up accelerators of your game plan. They help you do more faster, especially with treasure tokens

Key factor in both this video and the comments is the need to acknowledge "a probable outcome is not the same as a reality." Yes they are correct in pointing out that critical mass cases for winning using win more cards and the looseness of the definition isnt actually helpful. The problem I see in a lot of comments seems to be an articulation issue as well as an answer of "why do we even play commander." what I think many fail to realize is the real data application of effects vs use case and "feel" which are far more subjective and debatable. The fact is that in many cases doublers operate on the logical outcome of what they provide, but ignore outside variables like removal, interaction, variance and much more. They operate on a "but if X happens Y is devastating and I do this regularly!" if it truly is consistent for your play group that is fantastic, and where a lot of the subjectivity of play in magic comes in. There is few wrong answers when it comes to play that best suits your tables. But for the many who feel underwhelmed in their decks performance or patterns at foreign tables or unique surprise moments, I highly recommend asking yourself if the outcome is based on a scenario, or a skill based interaction. Data and social interaction are both variables in decks' success and play. I highly recommend any viewers here look at how flexible things are, not simply a possible winning outcome.

Why would draw spells be in the conversation about win more?

I think the conclusion here is to think and analyze, either in deckbuilding or by playing, the purpose of these kind of cards and try to determine if the card in question really serves in different situations or it is only useful in a situation where you already have a big advantage. Each deck is different, a card can be very good in one strategy and less useful, win more, in other.

For the cards that draw based on the number of creatures it's also a question of timing. 5 mana to draw in green is not that expensive and it can help draw cards after having committed to the board. You have like 4/5 creatures or tokens. That's not really something that needs to be wrathed and this way you get to draw cards.

When it comes to trigger doublers specifically, I’d argue a critical mass of hits in the deck makes them less of a win-more situation and more of an outright closer. Take for instance Roaming Throne in a Ganax, Astral Hunter/Agent of the Iron Throne list. Just from the commanders alone, it actually quadruples the effectiveness of treasure makers in the deck, since it doubles both the treasure output from Ganax AND the life drain effect of Agent, since it gives it to Ganax himself. Not to mention, it creates two treasures itself upon entry when choosing Dragon, so there’s even an immediate bit of value there. And then there’s all the dragons in the deck that can get triggers doubled as well. Things like Scourge of Valkas, Terror of the Peaks, Utvara Hellkite… Even a simple Rapacious Dragon can chunk 12 life out of opponents from treasure output alone. All off of one trigger doubler that happens to hit most everything in the list to some extent. It has easily won me games either the turn of, or turn after being played.

Cool deck, I'll have to adjust to my collection but I definitely feel like Ashiok, Dream Render would be neat here and I do own that one, a little bit of self mill and immediate graveyard hate.

When it comes specifically to doublers, they're absolutely overplayed. Many decks can make tokens, and when you go to the EDHrec for these decks you'll see doublers in the high-synergy and top cards sections, even if the gains from these effects are marginal. People tend to treat them like auto-includes. Many people also find them fun and run them simply because they like seeing the number go up, even if a different card would contribute more to winning. If we took into account those factors along with the fact that doublers tend to come in at mythic, AND that tokens are one of the most popular themes in the entire format, the cards are probably overvalued both in price and as inclusions. They're sort of the platonic ideal of a casual card. I think these cards work best if your primary engine is very compact, so you don't need to engage in tons of set-up to exploit them, or (to paraphrase you) if the payoff for a single activation is worth the price of admission. If they enable a combo or you can activate them often AND each activation is a huge threat, then you're probably in the money. I think this difference is a schism between "do the thing" and "win the game" styles of deckbuilding.

3:13 Bait used to be believable

So I will admit Procession is actually on the wishlist for my Jetmir deck because while I can make tokens somewhat regularly, my goal is simply to count to 9 bodies, drop Jetmir, and bop someone out of the game as fast as I can. Jetmir is my anthem, and 99/100, I don't drop Jetmir until I can "fully turn him on." This way, I can somewhat fly under the radar until I'm suddenly the whole problem

In short. Anointed procession is broken because it double your token, mindblow... except when you don't need to double your token cause you win already. 🤯 Thank you i'm sure no one ever figured this out.

Anointed Procession isn’t just a win more. It’s a combo piece. It’s a value engine. It’s a win condition. You’ll see that the more you play EDH.

but you weren’t talking about 1/1s. you were building Oketra. Doubling Vigilant 4/4s is a different story as they can overtake a game fairly quickly. Cathars crusade (5 mana, btw) is strong in this deck, giving all your creatures 2 counters when you cast a creature, but I really think you wanna go wide here in the absence of evasion. Your 4/4s are big enough, we want more of them. Akoma’s Will isn’t a fair comparison either. One is a setup card and the other is a payoff. which would you rather cast on turn 4 vs on turn 8? They’re both slam dunk includes here but they are for different parts of the game.

Love your Otharri deck. Any plans to update the non-"No Limit" version to remove Dockside and add any relevant cards from the last 8 months?

Oh shit a video because of me

Basically power level 8...

I build a really evil control deck just with „stand alone cards“ It was pretty hard at first but by cutting all the winmore cards the consitency and winrate of the deck skyrocketed

a good example for the difference between "winmoar" and "wincon" is how I use cards like "gratuitous violence", "berserker onslaught" and "roaming throne" in my "Bello, bard of the brambles deck". In other decks those card make a good board state better, in Bello they are engines on their own (at least if you have Bello on board, which is mandatory to do anything anyways). The damage doubling enchantments count themselves under bello and do 8 damage each as soon as they hit the board. they are finishers that can close the game early or draw engines in the case of "berseker onslaught" and "roaming throne", which let you draw 2 each time they do damage. IMO it depends on which role those cards play for your deck: Are they additional pieces that make your already working engine better or are they themselves part of the engine?

8 or 16 tokens, depends how you use them. Impact Tremors? Goblin bombardment? Wand of the worldsoul? Devout invocation? Ask anyone who has played a Storm Herd, or Scute Swarm, how many tokens are too many?

I disagree with this. If you are making a lot of tokens, you can do over more with double them. How depends on your deck. If you use them to attack a lot, having 16 tokens (instead of 8), even if they're 1/1's means that after attacking, you will still have a lot of them left and can attack the next turn. Effects like Warleader's call and impact tremors also enjoy getting more bodies on the board. And if you're an aristocrats deck, well, you get double the fodder. With cards like Cryptolith rites you get plenty of mana. And a craterhoof with 8 players will probably kill some opponents, a craterhoof with 16 tokens will win you the game (unless someone plays in the fog meta). But this all assumes that making 8 tokens is easy. I think a scenarie where you make 4 tokens, which get doubled up to 8 is way more likely to happen than 8 tokens getting doubled up to 16.

Overall, token doublers imo are rarely a "win more", atleast depending on your metagame. Most people tend to play in somewhat of a battlecruiserish meta. Those are slow steady rounds where getting double the tokens will almost always be worth it for many reasons. Be it for the sheer value of ETB triggers, value of mana via treasures, blockers or attackers to finally go for game. It surely always depends on thr deck, but Id say there are more decks want token doublers than decks that dont want them. For instance Xyris. He already can easily make 7 tokens a turn by yourself (without opponents drawing via their own cards). But making 14 instead of 7 tokens means I get to deal 14 instead of 7 damage via goblin bombardement. Or increase xyris power by 14, easily threatening lethal commander damage, with shared animosity. Token doublers make you a threat for sure, but depending on how easy it is for you to generate tokens they really accelerate your gameplan. Same goes for roaming throne for instance. Id argue he is extremely good in 80% of decks where the commander has a trigger, even if you dont play a tribal deck.

Win More card - a card that you can only play when you are already in the 'winning' board state and can't play when you are behind. -If you play a 'win more' card when behind, it doesn't advance your board state and could possibly cost you the game. I wouldn't necessarily consider Annointed Procession or other 'effect doublers' to be win-more cards. If you play Annointed Proecession and get even one doubling of the tokens, the card has paid for itself. Each doubling thereafter is just pure profit. -If you are terribly behind, playing another card to preserve your life rather than A.P. may be a better option. However, if playing A.P. allows you to make numerous chump blockers to preserve your life and strive towards winning the long game, then I would say that is a good strategy. In this instance, playing A.P. when behind is the right move, thus making A.P. not a "win more" card. Unwinding Clock, Seedborn Muse, and other similar cards that require that you already have a board state to be effective, hence 'win more'. Though I would categorize Overrun, Craterhoof Behemoth, and other similar effects to be more than just 'win more', they would be 'I win, the game is over' cards.

Hard disagree with baylan the haymaker the more tokens you have the stronger the commander

what if you deck is a deck around making tokens copys of enchants that double tokens like an anikthea deck?