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Yes that's well put. This kind of interpretation and narrative is very common in RJ thinking. And these interpretations are always possible; they could be true. So our next question for Sam would be along the lines of 'what's the evidence?'...

These are good questions. Just as you say, it's very common to know that our partner has a sexual past. But it only becomes an obsessive theme for a minority of people. Their interpretation of their partner's past means more to them - in a negative, difficult way. This past calls into question something fundamental to them, whether it's how they perceive the partner, prospects for the relationship, how other people might view this or something about themselves. For Sam, his interpretation was very much the latter (I might be the chump here), and that's a difficult feeling to brush off. These are all natural doubts and worries to have, so the source of RJ is more the reasoning process that leads us to the doubt. The facts about the partner's past are less relevant than how we interpret them. Hence some people can stress about their partner having slept with a couple of exes, or even just kissed. Their reasoning still leads them to a huge doubt and obsessive, imagined problem. Hope this makes sense!

@ in your experience has rj mostly been a sign that people should end the relationship since something unknown is fundamentally off?

Another good question! No in my experience there's usually a form of obsessive thinking going on on the part of one partner. Though not always - there can be something fundamentally off in the relationship. And then there are relationship powerplays at work sometimes too. RJ can be a complex issue.

@ how would you help the guy that feels like a chump? I don’t think that feeling would go away because it’s what he thinks about the past and the past can’t be changed. Would he be going against his true feelings if he tried to think differently? And wouldn’t this cause internal turmoil

Thank you!

I agree that this is the ideal, but it is not useful as advice to people already in marriages in which that ideal was flatlined or ignored.

Hey thanks - that's appreciated!

Hey you're very welcome - I'm pleased it's helpful!

Thanks and I'm pleased it's helpful 🙂Agreed re the standard advice to engage in something else, and there's something to be said for that. But yes, it's difficult. With most clients I work with, we're looking to develop a different attitude towards RJ thoughts - one of acceptance, curiousity but retaining agency over where our mind goes and how we react moment by moment. More on all that coming up!

Thank you and I completely agree. We are problem solvers and thinking it through works well in so many areas of our lives, so it's natural that we try to apply it to unresolveable doubt too. And it's not easy to stop - rumination feels compelling and alluring. I'll be putting out some more suggestions on ways to go about this.

I found that as soon as I TRULY focussed on what was happening in my body when I had a bout of RJ and rumination, it completely changed my world. By using ERP and IE I was able to control when my body experienced the anxiety, which gave me a really strong sense of what the different parts of me were 'sensing'. Then I would sit, focus on these sensations (mostly in my chest, hips, legs and feet) and wait for them to subside...oddly, when they'd subsided, I felt calmer and the rumination had stopped. I did IE every day for weeks and still do little bits here and there. Now, when intrusive thoughts come up, the first thing I get is the sensation of anxiety in my legs and feet which I acknowledge and almost automatically it passes within 2 or 3 seconds and I carry on with my day. It's like I trained my brain to take a different route when the thoughts come up.

@@dannelson4181 Thanks for sharing and that's spot on. It takes courage to willingly sit with the sensations in this way; it feels so counter-intuitive at first. I'm pleased that you're so clearly feeling the benefits!

Thanks - that is absolutely spot on! 🙂

These are good questions so thank you, and I'll have more explanation coming up in the next videos. But yes - the initial thought (image, mental movie) is unwanted and unpreventable, whether it just popped up or was triggered by something. And it brings up a feeling, usually some form of discomfort and uncertainty. Any thinking, analysing, problem-solving, self-reassuring, imagining that follows on is rumination. And we do have agency over that; it's mental activity that we're doing, even when we hate doing it. So our aim is to accept that we've had the initial thought and label it. Then it's more like letting the thought stay with us. Letting the uncertain feeling stay with us. Not pushing it away, not paying it attention either. And then steering our attention to anything in the here and now that isn't that thought or theme or uncertainty. A common metaphor is the fly that lands on your arm. You know it's there, you label it as just a fly, but you don't try to annoy it or swat it away. You look elsewhere until it flies away, still with some awareness that it's there. And then you may realise it's gone. Exposure is putting the fly on our arm, so to speak. Exposure is a way to deliberately, willingly practise this - knowing that the thought is coming. And a way to practise with familiar triggers too, so we can face them and still not engage in rumination. It's useful, but every unwanted RJ thought or trigger is an opportunity to practise too. I hope this makes sense and all easier said than done, I know! I'll be sharing more resources on this soon.

@ okay. Thanks for your answer. I think that most therapists at least at the beginning of healing, advise rather to manage this intrusive thought quite quickly as I said and to immediately divert our attention from this thought to break this habit in some way break this neural pathway that was created. that's why I have trouble integrating this concept, it's perhaps what I already do in the sense that I'm not afraid of the thought but I immediately try to refocus on something else "healthy". In any case I understand this idea with anxiety because you shouldn't be afraid of it and not try to run away from it. It makes it stronger. You just have to accept it, feel it and it dissolves. I can't wait for you to explain your idea a little more in the next video! Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

OK, maybe I understand in a way what you are trying to say! Sometimes I use a tool that allows me to “step back” from my perspective on a thought! to think about what it provokes in terms of: feeling, thought, emotion and the action I took afterwards.

You've got it! Just as you say, we want to be able to have the initial thought and accept we're having it. But not accept that we have to ruminate on it or get entangled in any other way. Then over time, it really starts to matter less! Thank you for your input on this too - it's appreciated!

@@JasonDeanTherapist great! thanks. did you suffer from RJ? your videos are very professional, there are few of you talking about this subject; it's good to have new resources.

holy hell - The ending the relationship and going on the apps, the sex workers, the opening of the relationships - I think I went through all these thoughts today just on my drive home from work (for the 500th time this week).

Hey thank you - that's really appreciated! And I'm pleased you're finding this relatable and helpful. And yeah, with all the amazing content on here I can understand why people aren't excited to subscribe to some therapist going on about OCD, anxiety and RJ 😅 But it's fun to make these videos and like you say, if it helps anyone then it's all good with me.

@@Mike-schmike ah very relatable by the sound of it. Yes these are really common themes, and they are a form of rumination of course. I have a couple of videos coming up next about tackling rumination and just this kind of repetition. Thanks for sharing!

Hey thank you - I'm really pleased that you're finding this info and approach helpful! And especially seeing the benefits of self-guided ERP, which is often discounted as an option. It takes a fair amount of self-honesty and compassion, but that's beneficial in itself. So props to you and everyone who sticks with it. And feel free to reach out, by all means. It's busy but there's always availability coming up, no problem. So thank you and all the best moving forwards.

Great question - and topic for a video so thank you! In a nutshell, yes we can work on RJ while single and I have respect for people who do. Because often the motivation disappears as soon as we find ourselves single. Even if we regret the break up, we're instantly freed from the RJ thoughts and it's natural to just hope that RJ doesn't happen next time with a different partner etc. So working on RJ single requires a reality check. We can still work on the fears and underlying themes when single, and imaginal exposures are good for that. We can use past relationship experiences to shed light on the underlying uncertainties, and an imagined next relationship for exposures. Getting back into dating again presents plenty of exposure opportunities too, but small steps is usually way to go. It's a real opportunity for change and better outcomes. Hope this helps!

Well, it could be a number of factors - and one of them might be that this feels more of a committment, a leap of faith. And while that can feel really good, retroactive jealousy will ramp up the doubts about her and her past too. This is speculation on my part of course, but hopefully worth considering.

Does rj cause resentment towards your partner? If so what are steps that can be done to reduce it

@@thomascrown5765 That's a good question and it depends on the 'type' of resentment thoughts and what fears/uncertainties might be underlying them. Often it's about learning how to detach from such intrusive thoughts and we do that through exposure/ERP. Sometimes if the thoughts are completely unfounded, we need to be able to see right through them. And as I mention in this video, sometimes they do have some foundation - some legitimate questions about the partner or suitability of the relationship that calls for couple therapy perhaps.

It’s like finding out about her past made me have resentment because of the decisions she made and the positions she kept putting herself to get hurt and I hate that bad things happen to her. It lowered her value in my eyes for some reason. She’s stil the same person I met and fell in love with but it feels like she isn’t anymore which is weird. It’s gotten to the point where I don’t enjoy her as much and I’m always stressed around her and now she’s becoming stressed about the relationship because of me. It’s like finding out things changed my perception of her somehow and I stay wanting the relationship to be good but it’s like I’m in love with what I thought she was and I don’t like who she was and now who she became in my eyes. The relationship has become painful and toxic and it’s affecting my everyday life now. Idk what to do but I keep thinking about breaking up even though it’ll be hard . Any other advics

@@thomascrown5765 Yes I hear you - it's a real struggle trying to reconcile what you know about the past with what you know of her as a person in the present. I would say this as a therapist, but ideally you need to be talking with someone and exploring this a bit. And as a general steer, remember that there's always context to the past and we can all change. Be mindful of the past by all means, but giving the benefit of the doubt tends to get easier over time. I hope this helps!

That sounds like a good suggestion to me. And I know what you mean - not doing it in a 'well two can play at that game' sense, but helping to experence how powerless these images are (with the caveats mentioned in the video, of course!).

Hi, two good questions and I appreciate how difficult this is. In terms of whether you were wrong, we should be able to talk with our partners about how such things make us feel and figure out a way forward together. The trouble is, RJ and all the intense emotions that come with it make this really difficult; the conversation becomes loaded and controlling really easily. So your intention wasn't wrong IMO, but RJ made it feel toxic for you both. Exposure therapy - absolutely. Accepting that you're having the thought, and all the feelings coming with it, and finding ways to pass the time for the feeling to pass. Easier said than done, I know. And refraining from acting includes refraining from going down all the rabbit holes of imagining past lovers etc. Every time you manage this, you take back a bit more agency over these thoughts and in time, your nervous system gets the message. It does take time though. In therapy, we usually expect to see positive results in 8 weeks of consistent exposure work. And this includes deliberately leaning into thoughts as well as practicising when they come incidentally. Props to you for recognising how this struggle is on your side and stepping up to it. I hope this helps.

I appreciate how difficult this must be. I can only speculate here, but we often see multiple layers to obsessive compulsive thinking. So the more typical 'retroactive jealousy' thinking would be imagining a partner's past and their exes, having our imagination fill in the gaps, feeling resentment or disgust, etc. It sounds like you've been experiencing that. And then there are 'real event' thoughts in the mix, and the kind of traumatic experience you describe (for your partner and for you) may be just such a thing. And this leaves you trying to unpick what's RJ and what's legitimate trauma or red-flag dilemma. My suggestion would be that it's hard, impossible even, to unpick this all by yourself. Therapy would help you to get the general sensitivity to your partner's past more in check, and then you're better placed to communicate with your partner, understand and make positive decisions. Talk to someone qualified in this area, I would suggest. And I hope both you and your partner find some resolution.

@@JasonDeanTherapist can I do sessions with you? I’ve been looking around but no therapist I find specializes in ocd or rj and always tell me to see the thought and acknowledge that I am not my thoughts, similar to what you suggest on this post but it’s seems generic and non chalant because they don’t understand the issue like you seems to do. I hate judging and resenting someone that’s such a nice and beautiful person that got taken advantage of. I’m genuinely thinking about ending this relationship even though everything else is good, just so I can have some peace. It feels like I’m in a nightmare that I can’t wake up from .

Yes that's quite common - therapists make such suggestions with the best of intentions, but OCD requires a more structured approach. If you're in the UK then feel free to get in touch (my website is in my channel desc), but either way I recommend people struggling with RJ find a therapist that specialises in OCD. And note, the therapist might not be familiar with the term retroactive jealousy. It's an internet buzzword (albeit a useful one) rather than a psychotherapy term. But when you describe the symptoms, anyone experienced in working with OCD will know it.

@@JasonDeanTherapist unfortunately I’m not in the uk. I’ll keep searching for therapists. I think her decision making is making me view her as less and I’ve become really judgmental. It’s like her making those decisions caused her to lose value In my eyes and it’s been bugging me. Is this a characteristic of rj?

Yes - someone's decision making may well be problematic, and as their partner it's perfectly natural to have your own views on that. Especially decisions and actions they make in your relationship. These things can be up for discussion between partners. But with RJ, it's even harder to be objective and take everything into account. RJ has us in fight/flight mode ourselves, and balanced assessment and communication is nigh on impossible. So we need to get this sensitivity to RJ thoughts down first, and then we can see the wood for the trees and make our own decisions about the relationship. And it's a leap of faith, I know, when every thought is trying to drive us away from the partner.

Thanks for considering, but I'm afraid I'm unable to work directly with US clients (insurance and regulatory reasons). But we do often see this kind of dynamic with retroactive jealousy - possibly underpinned by feelings of an experience mis-match. And an urge to question the partner's past decisions, as you say. Some ERP-informed therapy may well be appropriate here, and I can recommend US therapist Chris Leins (iocdf.org/providers/leins-chris/). He also has an excellent podcast called OCD Straight Talk. I hope this helps for now!

You're very welcome!

You've clearly learnt and grown a lot from those experiences, and that's a very honest and valuable insight to share. And as you say, yes attachment is a major factor in RJ.

I know what you mean, and think awareness of an age difference can exacerbate these thoughts and feelings about her past. I've heard men have similar thoughts about 'enjoying her younger body' too. You can remind yourself that she's with you now, she chooses you, but if these thoughts are persistent and stressful, yes you're experiencing RJ. The exposure work I describe in the video can really help with these kinds of thoughts but remember, one small step at a time and often the guidance of a therapist can really help. I hope this helps.

It’s been about 7 months and I can’t shake these thoughts. I go in episodes where I I blame her for being stupid and giving herself away and lowering her value etc and I’ve never been like this before. Like I’m disappointed in her. Asking her what can I get that no one else can say they got. Mainly focused on sexual physical acts. I’m working with a therapist now but the meditation we’re doing doesn’t seem to be having any effects. It’s like I look at her and visualize things happening to her with other people. I look at her and try to imagine what her body looked liked when she was younger. It’s snowballing into a lot of thoughts all at once

@@thomascrown5765 When you say meditation in your therapy, is it similar to the exposure work described in the video? Have you and the therapist identified the blaming and questions as compulsions? I don't ask this to criticise your therapist or their approach, but if not, you might want to discuss taking more of an ERP-informed approach with them.

No we haven’t done any of those. How would I do the erp approach? I’ve never seen myself with a single mom and it feels like if someone else marked their terrority. Do you think a subconscious desire to break up could cause these rj symptoms?

It’s hurts a lot because I’ve never been In love with a woman and I want to give her all of me but it’s like I’m being blocked from doing that. My mind and heart are at odds

Hey thank you. And yes - the more we care about our partner and value the relationship, the more RJ OCD has to torment us with. And therapy/self-help feels like a huge leap of faith when RJ is questioning all the time. More on this coming up, with some specific things we can do to overcome RJ. Thanks again for sharing.

Thanks for sharing and I agree - RJ OCD is really tough, both on sufferers and their partners. Has any advice from the books been helpful for you so far? I agree that there is some resetting required - to lower our sensitivity to thoughts about our partner's past. If you haven't explored ERP as an option yet, it's well worth considering!

@@JasonDeanTherapist Yeah. I think about ERP too.Nowadays I can manage my thoughts and the emotional response to them...the frequency and emotional pain has greatly reduced. But the feeling I have is that I'm really stuck in this condition, you know? My sense of self, my feelings... and some cognitive distortions still occur about my partner. I'm not fluent in the language... I wanted proper help. Thank You, Jason.

It sounds like you've done a lot of good work and I'm pleased you're feeling some benefit. And what you describe makes sense. It's necessary to learn how to manage our emotional reaction to the thoughts first, but we can be left with feelings of confusion, regret and more. If you feel like further reading, I can recommend the work of US therapists Martin Seif and Sally Winston. Their book 'Overcoming Unwanted Intrusive Thoughts' includes advice on further healing, for example. I'll be putting some more content on this channel too. Thanks again for sharing and best wishes.