I believe Berger bullets are designed to penetrate a few inches and then essentially explode. Their theory is that the massive amount of hydrostatic shock (as you could see in your demonstration) is half of what kills. So they did in fact perform exactly as designed. It would have been nice to see a more “standard” cup and core like a Remington Core Lokt or Hornady Interlock. Otherwise, awesome demonstration and great data!!
I absolutely agree. Something like a Hornady Interlock or Speer Grand Slam would be more of a traditional cup and core designed to mushroom and have high weight retention. Bergers were not the best example to use. But nonetheless it was a good video.
Berger 215's are the go to for most Elk Hunters. For deer, ANYTHING will work but for Elk/Moose/Bear I would want something that will punch through bone a bit better. All that being said, nothing flys like a berger.
That's what I was thinking. The bergers were designed to take in material for a few inches before that material causes the cavity to rupture. That model of bullet performed exactly as designed but that fact was ignored in order to put their own endorsed bullet ahead of a whole broad type of bullet. Can't blame them though, they are businessmen, they have to show bias towards their own product even if it means misleading consumers away from a superior performing bullet.
They use what they're sponsored to use. A 9.3x62 will kill everything in America in a cartridge that anyone could manage the recoil from. The buff in my display pic was shot with a 50 cal muzzleloader. Being able to consistentl put a bullet where it needs to go is far more important than a calibre for this and a gun for that.
I’ve shot deer with all 3 at various ranges. Pigs did fine with the copper solid but did absolutely nothing to multiple white tails. By contrast cup and core & bonded from 308 & 30-06 worked fine regardless of the range. Personally I think that the target & velocity changes everything. Smaller calibers such as the 6.5’s at higher speeds, or 30’s over 30-06 velocities are fine with all copper bullets. Or if the target is a more toughly built critter.
@@flintandball6093 you're absolutely right but there are still performance differences that people have fun being soy boys about and that kind of content would not go unwatched
@@soonerfrac4611 I watched my brother pole-axe a tahr from 550m (600ish yards) with 150gr TTSX out of a 30-06. I used to shoot nothing but coppers but have moved back to bonded bullets more. I really love Norma Oryx out of my 275 Rigby. Not that I shoot centrefires much anymore.
Hello from Kalispell! Copper monolithic bullets are great for typical hunting distances, inside 200 or 300 yards. But beyond that distance, they have two fatal flaws; they require higher impact velocity to initiate expansion, and they don't have the BC of lead core bullets. Copper is harder than lead and has a much higher melting temperature (~1984 deg F), so copper bullets have a higher minimum velocity threshold for expansion, typically somewhere around 2000 to 2200 fps. And copper is less dense than lead, so a bullet of a given volume will have less mass. This means a copper bullet will have less mass and a lower sectional density than a lead core bullet of the same volume. Because sectional density is critical to computing ballistic coefficients, having a lower SD means an all copper bullet will have a lower BC than a lead core bullet of the same shape and volume. These two short comings work together to rob the monolithic expanding copper bullets of usable range because they need more velocity to expand, but lose velocity faster than lead core bullets. Lead is actually a perfect material for bullet construction. It is malleable and easy to shape, has a low melting point, and a higher density. This helps it maximize SD and BC for a given volume and shape. And high velocity rifle bullets will reach temperatures of 550 to 600 deg F due to friction with the bore and the air. Lead melts at ~621 deg F, so the lead core of a bullet will be near a liquid state when it impacts, allowing for better expansion at lower impact velocities. Some lead core bullets can show usable expansion down to 1500 or 1600 fps. These two advantages help maximize velocity retention and provide optimal terminal performance at longer ranges, making lead core bullets much better when ranges start getting out past 300 yards.
Great content! I really appreciate the longer format as well. I’d love to see this same test with other bullets. Partition, Ballistic Tip, Accubond, TTSX, etc. Personally speaking, after over 30 years of big game hunting, it’s hard not to reach for Partitions. They’ve performed brilliantly on everything.
You won’t, unfortunately. Meateater has a deal with Federal and this video is essentially a Federal Trophy Copper promotion. I agree with you though. The partition, accubond, and lrx/ttsx would be the better bullets to use for this test.
I use a barns ttx 155 grain in my 7mm 08 at 2750 fps. Used interlock core before and wasn't pleased with the put down it had on an elk with good shot placement. Sure enough the interlock came apart but the copper stayed together and expanded throughout the animal. 120 grains may be too light to apply enough force to expand and mushroom the bullet, but is heavy enough for lead. I would bet at 160 grains the copper would expand much further than it did here.
@@nathanadams1332 It's not so much the weight of the bullet as it is how it's designed to expand at certain velocities. I shoot a lot of 300blk and there are manufacturers who make solid copper bullets from 90gr all they up over 200gr, from super sonic velocities all the way down to subsonic velocities. Discreet Ballistics (primarily subsonic bullets), Maker Bullets, Barnes Bullets make a variety of solid coppers that expand to around 2 to 3 times their caliber size. Some of these in .308 expand to around 1 inch.
I think the Berger is in it's own category; being designed to fragment. The "standard" cup and cores sometimes fragment, but they are not designed to do so.
Bergers are designed for shots 500 yards and out past that! They are not designed for shots under 300 yards unless your shooting a non magnum! Just my 60+ years of hunting and reloading speaking! Our job as the hunter is to determine what kind of hunting we are doing on what kind of game and choose the best bullet for that hunt!
@tbo2307 maybe if you are shooting something larger than whitetails. I don't use them any more to keep lead out of my meat, but they emulsified the internals on 4 whitetails for me; putting them down fast. Ballistic tips did the same thing when pushed hard, especially at close range. I'm a Barnes TTSX fan now; expand, retain weight, and pass theough.
Great video. I will say that I’ve harvested four deer at a variety of ranges from 90 to 300 yards with the Berger Hybrid in 7 REM mag and it has performed great. Each time the bullet penetrated into the vital cavity perfectly and devastated the heart and lungs with practically no wasted meat or shattered bone.
To me this just confirms what we already know about these types of bullets. Coppers rely on velocity to work properly, Bergers claim to penetrate 2-3 inches then expand is true, and bonded lead core bullets just flat out work. Overall great video guys! This should be shown in every hunter education class.
I shoot mostly cooper bullets (Barnes). I was very please to see how quickly the copper bullets begins to expand. The Bonded was impressive at the expansion at long range. It seems to give destructive expansion at both short a long range. Very well done test. I agree that I would have like to of seen a different cup and core bullet than the Berger. The 140g Nosler BT in the 6.5 CM would have been interesting.
Love the time and detail you put into this. This helps not only to understand but make better choices in different hunting applications. Would love to see more of this type of testing on all types of things.
I love what you did. I dont want to ve critical at all because what you compared was awesome and done really well. I wouldn't have used Berger for the cup and core example. That bullet did what Berger advertises it to do. Hornady Interlock, Speer Grand Slam, Sierra GameKing, Nosler portion, Swift A frames, etc. Are more tradional cup and core bullets that are designed differently than Bergers. The ones mentioned are made for higher weight retention. It would be awesome if you did this again with only cup and core bullets with different designs from one manufacturer. For instance Hornady Interlock, SST, and ELDX. Speer BTSP, Hot Core, and Grand Slams. They are all made cup and core yet different designs for different results.
The partition style bullets are different from regular cup and core because of that copper partition in the middle that prevents over expansion/fragmentation. They are proven bullets and the gold standard when it comes to terminal performance. Lots of guys for some reason like those match style or eldx bullets that fragment and come apart more so I think it was good to use a match or eldx style. They work ok at lower velocity but at higher velocity they suck and are really inconsistent.
The Berger certainly didn’t perform like a traditional cup and core. More like a frangible FMJ. No real expansion, as the hollow point tip is still intact.
@@Nick-sx6jm my son shot a cow elk at 178 yds with a 7mm Rem mag with a 150gr ELDX and it perfom as advertised. The top portion of the bullet fragmented, but the bottom was mushroomed and still in tact and it was found in the opposite side shoulder. I wish I could post a pic on here. I was actually impressed with how well it held up at those velocities at that range.
@@andycronin6170 I shot a buck at 325 yards with a 162gr eldx from a 28 nosler so it was probably going about the same speed. The buck was walking and stepped into a depression as I shot and I hit it in the spine. The bullet completely exploded. I thought it was a perfect shot because the last thing I saw was the buck drop but even 2 hours later when I got to it it was still alive. I have had other problems with differnt types of cup and core bullets and thats why I said they fragment or can be inconsistent. Sometimes they work great (especially at low velocity) but they also often disappoint.
This was well put together. Thank you for shooting the blocks at range and not like 25 ft away. My bullet choice is based on anticipated impact velocity and animal. Backwoods deer hunting within 150 yards (higher impact velocity) ill go with a bonded or copper bullet (Nosler Accubond or Barnes TSX). In cases with longer range shots (lower impact velocity) ill go with a traditional lead core bullet like the Nosler Partition or Hornady Interlock. Everyone wants to shoot high BC bullets, but what really matters is can you place the shot in the boiler room and are you using the right cartridge/bullet for the task.
I shot the accubond the first time this yr. Shot two. 180 grn 300win. 90 yards and at 500 yards. Neither close of far expanding both had to pin holes. I was very disappointed. All good shot placement behind the front shoulder. Want shoot them ever again.
Excellent test and discussion. I have settled on the Nosler Accubond LR in my 7mm Rem Mag handloads. They are accurate (sub 3/4 moa). I have not yet taken game with them but I am sure they will be effective at all practical distances
Great video and information. Thank you! I saw how cup and core bullets perform this year when I recovered the copper jacket cups from two whitetails I harvested. The cores were gone and caused good exit wounds. The copper jacket cups were nicely expanded but found inside the cavities. Both bullets did their job but came apart. I can see how a bonded or copper bullet would perform better in a larger animal.
Thanks for the informative video! I've been using 150gr Trophy Copper in my 7mm Rem Mag since 2008 with extreme reliability. I won't feed my loved ones potentially lead-tainted meat ever again. Shoot straight, folks!
Great content. I’ve hunted with Nosler Accubond for years with multiple calibers (.243, .270, 6.5 CM) and have taken everything from pronghorn to elk with a single shot. I’ve also been able to recover two bullets from game animals (.270 out of an elk @ ~380 yards and 6.5 CM out of a pronghorn @ ~160 yards). Both bullets showed near perfect expansion. I’ve recently switched to copper due to lead fragmentation concerns in meat. I’ve not yet shot a game animal with solid copper but am certainly looking forward to my own comparisons. I’m certain I won’t have any problems with the monolithic bullets and this video proves the point. Thank you for this exception video.
Love this, I’d like to request an archery version using the deer scapula. Compare fixed and mechanical heads, heavy Ashby style arrows versus light etc something like that
@@ChrisJones-nm4id You plan for it so that if it happens you have given yourself the best chance possible for success. That’s like saying “Why buy smoke detectors? Just don’t light your house on fire” or “Why wear seatbelts? Just don’t crash”
@@ChrisJones-nm4id bad shots happen. They happen all the time and they happen to some of the best archers in the world. Why wouldn't you have the best set up to allow you the shooter the most forgiveness in every situation?
Awesome video. I hunt with 180 grain Berger hybrids and have always been amazed at how after initial impact, they turn and destroy random stuff. I have yet to shoot a big game animal and have the bullet exit. It has been more common that after entering an animal broad side, it turns almost 90 degrees. After watching this, it makes a lot more sense to me.
I would give the ABLR or the bonded bullet they used in this test a try. I have used all 3 types and the bonded bullets by far perform the best in the real world on game. They kill quickly and consistently, give deep penetration, and not a lot of meat loss.
I hit my elk last year with the Berger 195 at 375 yards from a 26 inch 28 Nosler… took 3 shots… not one bullet made it through the first lung. Garbage.
I have shot a few Elk now with those Berger Bullets and have not had perfect shot placement, but they have never gone more than 100yds and always expired before I can get to them. Love them Bergers! Like a mini grenade going off.
Great test and footage. Looks like they’ll all work on a deer quite effectively as long as you put the bullet in the right place. Would be cool to see you guys get into some NRL Hunter matches. They’re a ton of fun and help you learn to shoot better rapidly
This is the most scientific and engineering approach i have ever seen comparing real world performance simulation in all 3 bullet type / construction categories. Awesome! Thank you!
I have used all types of hunting projectiles and most of them do a pretty good job at 100 to 200 yards. But the one I have been the most impressed with is the Barnes TTSX I use 185gr and 250gr depending what I am hunting with my 338 win mag 100 to 500 yards I have been impressed
Excellent video. In my limited hunting experience game seem to run longer with a Barnes TTSX ( tipped all copper)than with a Berger Hybrid Hunter ( Cup & core).
This is great! Thankyou for putting this out there as I and deciding on a preferred cartridge(s) for elk, bear, and deer. This is certainly the stuff that all hunters can benefit from
Super valuable! From California so been hunting with only copper for the last few years so kept the same as we hunted elk in Colorado and now moved to North Carolina. Was thinking of switching back to lead (for cost and availability reasons) but now think we'll probably stay with what we've got. Certainly lots of development being done with copper and it will be the future as lead is slowly phased out.
.7 MOA in a hunting round is what I'm talking about, Barnes copper. I've seen better accuracy but not often and this bullet retains mass. I'll stick with it for now.
Absolutely great video! I’d love to see something similar with shotguns, analyzing different kinds of shot and different gauges would be quite interesting.
No choice out here in Cali. I'm a new hunter so I have a lot to learn, but my opinion copper is a better option for conservation from what I understand so far. Thank you all so much for the great videos.
Barnes are better copper bullets. Hammer bullets are also amazing if you load your own. I am currently testing some Badlands Precision bullets but I’ve yet to see an animal in season with a loaded round in my chamber this year! 😭
Copper needs speed. Barnes LRX is designed to work at slower speeds now, so it will work at longer ranges, as it slows down. Generally speaking: Tsx 2000fps, ttsx 1800, LRX 1500.
@@waynemensen4252 The .308 175 LRX going 3100 fps is devastating on pigs at 30 yards. 😂 It vaporized the heart and blue out the front shoulder when I hit him quartering to me.
Great video, I love the fact each shot was into fresh gel. Very informative. I liked seeing the performance of each type of bullet. Just from my personal experience in the field with each type of bullet I always choose the bonded bullets as I feel they perform the best for my needs.
Great test, but interesting what each person considers "success." I considered the scapula damage a failure since it'd ruin a lot of meat. Coming from "Meat Eater" any thoughts on what part of the impact causes the most muscle bruising and meat loss? When I've used copper on deer, I've always been impressed with how little meat loss I've had on the entry wound. Switched to bonded bullets a few years ago, and have had several deer and pronghorn with bone shards in meat. I've even had bone shards, from well-placed broadside shots, reach the guts, and really sucks to get bile on tenderloins! Thoughts?
I'd like to see a comparison of Copper bullets, from a range of manufacturers. I shoot Barnes TTSX and the expansion is the same as the Bonded bullet seen here. In the UK we have to be lead free in 4 years.
A side by side test of copper would be amazing. I reload only with copper bullets and the data that I have gotten from the manufactures for minimum opining velocity’s are 2,000fps with trophy copper and hornady, 1,800fps for lapua, and Barnes 1,800-1,600fps depending on caliber
I've used Barnes for 30 years. I don't have too. I've had no reason to change. They need speed to expand. Choose light for caliber bullets and send them. Generally speaking, tsx needs 2000fps to expand properly. Ttsx 1800, LRX, long range xtreme 1500. This changes some by caliber and the weight of the bullet. They have continually improved. Most elk cartridges will have an LRX that stays above 1500 a long way out. Don't shoot past where the bullet is below 1500.
No, it's not... Barnes usually fail to expand which is why a number of people have come away from them, certainly if they've dropped under around 2400fps. They just don't kill as well as lead
I suggest wrapping the ballistic gel in Saran Wrap to keep the pressure inside the gel, for a more realistic representation of the shockwave. As it is, the gel can just float freely, but inside the body, there are other body parts keeping that wound channel together as a whole.
I found the difference between the bonded and jacketed bullets most interesting. Copper performs best with as much velocity as can be mustered to get the best expansion. The bonded bullets though retaining mass and tracking true through all the ranges is quite impressive. Though not quite applicable to hunting, it would have been interesting to see a sub sonic test at 140. Fairly certain that the jacketed bullet would manage to stay together under those conditions. Copper sub sonic probably would be terrible in that there would be no expansion and the bonded maybe might expand which would be interesting.
Yeah copper sub sonic would be terrible, it wouldn't expand at all, all copper bullets have a minimum velocity they will expand at. If you're going to shoot subsonic when hunting you want to do it with a caliber and projectile suited for it. A 6.5 creedmore is not a good caliber for subsonic, you need as much mass as possible when shooting subs because it's the only way to get more energy.
Very well done test however I must say the cup and core was represented poorly in my experience. I have never seen or heard of anyone using a Berger bullet for hunting medium sized game or larger, to most people that Berger is a glorified match bullet that will kill well. However almost everyone I know across many states use core lokt , inter lokt ,powershok ,PowerPoint etc. and I feel the exposed lead tip bullets all open better and hold together better than represented by the Berger. Again great test, but the cup and core could have been better represented in my opinion.
I agree 100% with everything you said. Most folks would not pick up a box of bergers and head out the door. Does not mean they are bad, but definitely not going to be chosen over a core lokt, interlock, power shock, or power point. Otherwise the test was pretty damn cool
Bonded for sure. But I’m def never aiming for the shoulder, I’m not going to ruin that much meat on entry and even more on the opposite side. Damage wise, yes. Ethics wise no.
@@armandassante5928 for the vitals. You should never aim for the shoulder. Double lung shots do not waste any meat and the animal won’t suffer or get away as much.
Good job guys, best bullet comparison I've seen, I'm shooting a 6.5-300 and trying to decide between Barnes/copper and berger, think I'm sticking with Barnes, thanks again
I’m using the 6.5 Creedmoor 125 Winchester XP copper this hunting season, Six doe’s from 40 yards to 210 yards, Dropped in there tracks, Clean wound channels, No blood shoot meat, Complete pass throw’s, Can’t what to try this in other caliber’s, Great Video, Keep them coming.
Iv'e been loading various Barnes bullets in all my hunting rifles ranging from .223 through 458 win mag for 15 years now and never found a rifle that didn't like them. Having said that the Barnes are more expensive and when I'm building loads for a gun that's just for shooting targets i use the Bergers due to cost and the fact that they are extremely accurate.
I did a test a while back 20% gelatine mix, 168gr Hornady ELD Match (polymer tip boat tail) @ 2538 fps (2332 ft/lb)Overall length of travel 16” Clean entry and no expansion until the polymer tip broke away at 2” deep, expansion continued rapidly and immediately, 5” dissection cut revealed cavities with star seam cuts of up to 5” wide with a very little copper flake left at 3” deep 10” dissection cut reversed cavities with even more star seam cuts (up to 8 points) 6” wide (full width of gelatine) with more copper flakes at 8” and 9” deep Expansion continued until 12” deep where speed slowed right down and cavities were no bigger than diameter of bullet left, small trailing lead from 9.5”-11” deep but massive lead trail from 13”-15” with small flakes of copper mixed in. Bullet expanded to from 7.82mm to 21.96mm (0.308 to 0.864) retained bullet weight is 89.2gr Overall expansion range of 10” with 53% retained weight, I would suggest at least another 30% of the overall weight was left between 12”-15” in the form of lead
Great methodology! A much needed video. I’d love to see a follow up video comparing bullet expansion between 50-200m as many hunting situations I’ve experienced have been short range engagements
I recover one bullet from a black tail deer a few seasons ago. At 100 yards the Barnes ttsx did the job. But the crazy thing is that the bullet was sticking out from the boat tail out of the shoulder. So now I see why…. By the way it was a light bullet 100 grain out of a 25/06
@@joseehernandez2447 If you look at Berger's videos they explain that they want the bullet to expend all their energy inside the cavity of the animal so that it will barely exit leaving a solid wound channel and less likely to strike a second animal. I think that was proven in the tests that Meateater conducted.
Since most of the replies here are from non lead shooters. Do any of you load your own rounds? Looking for new load data using AA4350 but can't find any for Berger bullets which is driving me nuts.
This is my first year of using Winchester Copper XP Bullets (both 6.5 Creedmoor and .300 Winchester Magnum) and i will never go back to a lead projectile. The knockdown power the Copper XP bullets have amazed me. With both calibers i never lost a deer and with .300 Winchester Magnum it dropped them like a sack of taters and 6.5 Creedmoor expanded just like the .300 with a great blood trail but of course not the same knockdown but definitely a killer. I'm sticking with the copper.
Well done! I love the subjective analysis. I see you are getting inundated with requests for a variety of different tests. One I think meat eater can sink it’s teeth into would be broadheads. Between your podcasts with the Ashby data and the gentleman from Iron Will recently, meateater has already explored some of the concepts. Now time to do your own data. I would think the test could be done similarly. Maybe add a layer of hide(leather) to the front face. Can’t imagine a need for as much distance variation so maybe include a wider variety of blades. And please include mechanicals. Fixed versus mechanical is one of the biggest arguments today. Excellent work guys.
Most of the copper bullets need a lot of velocity, so going for a lighter weight bullet in your caliber is the usual go to. But what's amazing about the copper is even with the lighter weight they typically penetrate as deep as the heavier lead bullets
Copper is a lighter metal than lead, so a projectile of the same dimension will also be lighter. I’ve never seen a copper bullet perform as poorly as the one here, that was interesting to see.
While it is generally true that a solid copper bullet of the same dimensions will typically benefit from higher velocities compared to it's bonded lead core counterpart, it would be a mistake to see velocity as a general saviour for copper solids. It is way more important with copper bullet to give the terminal target velocities a good think. Which velocities do I get from my gun and which distances do I usually shoot game at? Choosing a copper bullet that has been designed for the resulting range of impact velocities will really make a copper bullet work great and guarantee that it will deform and/or disintegrate as designed and thus achieve the desired hydrostatic shock, wound cavity generation and penetration. Too slow velocities for the bullet and it might not properly deform (like the example here at 500 yards). Too high and it might fall apart (although that's less likely - and that's where "higher velocities are better" originates from)
Excellent test. Would like to see how bone size & density changes things. I know exotic hunters that swear by copper (long before the mandates). They say African big game have denser/harder bone.
I have trusted bonded core to put meat on my table for the last decade. Hunt almost exclusively whitetail & have tried all of the bullet types. Learned through trial & error. Where I hunt now, you need the deer to drop or leave a massive blood trail. Or else you’ll never find them.
@@alemajo absolutely, pencil hole exits don’t let the blood pump. On the other end of the spectrum, a bullet that comes apart & doesn’t exit ain’t any good either.
One thing that was missed when comparing the bullets maintaining trajectory is the camera only shows vertical changes. Pointed out with the copper bullet @16:25 but if you look at the bonded bullet @15:55 it exits the side of the block closest to the camera so that bullet turned very hard to the right from its original trajectory.
Love this! That Terminal Ascent is really a smart design bringing together the higher BC of the cup and core bullet with the weight retention of the all copper bullet. Really hard to go wrong. I look forward to Federal releasing more bullets in this line. Would like a 250-300gr .338 cal. That thing would be a hammer from my favorite 33 Nosler.
I would pick the TA every time of the 3 bullets tested. Just a fantastic design. Im a Nosler AccuBond guy, but technically that TA or the previous Trophy bonded tip are about the best design on the planet in my opinion. Weight retention from the solid shank, reliable expansion and bonding with a polymer tip. Whats not to like?
yall should do the same test on different copper bullets. like the hornady cx line against the berger copper and others. I recently switched my rifle(308) over to the CX line through hornady for two reasons, one is much high BC for the same weight projectile the second is for greater penetration. lately i've been chasing pigs and at distance 300yds+ I'm really enjoying the flatter trajectory, the ability to buck the wind better and so far with the cx, i haven't had a single pig soak up a round. in fact the last time i went out, i shot a sow through the next just under her spine, that bullet exited the sow and hit a 30lb piglet and passed the full length of its body before exiting.
I always thought the copper was basically a 200-250 yard bullet. I am very very impressed with the bonded. The 143 gr ELD-X is the get er done bullet for me
I love ELD-X. My favourite from Hornady and one of the best out there in my opinion for hunting projectiles. I’ve used it in 7mm mag, .308, .30-06, .300 Win, .300 PRC, and .338 Lapua to great affect up here in Canada. I’m going to stick with bonded for big game hunting as long as it’s legal and I don’t think that’s changing anytime soon.
Hey boys I had the same questions you had and I can’t believe how dead on your answer was. I live in northern Canada and hunt elk with the 280 AI in a Kimber. I have in the past shot a lot of Bergers at paper mainly because I don’t agree with the complete fragmentation of a bullet to be effective on game. I have hunted with Nosler Partition bullets for 30 years but with trying to keep up with the times have hunted with Barnes bullets on Elk. When Nosler came up with the Accubond bullet I immediately tried them on elk. Then the Accubond Long Range bullets came along and that is where I am now. Interesting to find out that the LR are made with a softer comparison. I live in an area with a sufficient elk concentration that I can limit myself to a 350 yard shot or less which made your video all the more pertinent. Thank you for the best shooting video I think I have ever watched. Mr. 280 AI.
Great video! One thing to note, the bullets were fired from a rifle with an 18 inch barrel, which means they were moving 150-200fps slower than what the specs are. At 500 yards, this means they hit at roughly 1800fps (not 1950-2000 as stated in the video) which is the bare minimum for copper bullet expansion. This is likely the reason the trophy copper barely opened up at that distance. Using a standard 24 inch barrel and/or a caliber with higher muzzle velocity and retains more velocity (6.5 PRC, 270 WIN, 7 Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag etc.) and a Trophy Copper bullet at 500 yards should be no problem.
I was excited to watch this video because the terminal ascent is the only bullet I hunt big game with. Would have been nice to keep it a secret though since I haven’t been able to find those bullets to reload for 30,28 and 264 caliber! Lol. Heads up, midway has terminal ascents loaded ammo for 6.5 creedmoor as of today 10-22-22
One of the best comparisons I’ve seen. I would to see a comparison of a bonded bullet to a partitioned bullet such as a Nosler Partition or Swift A-frame in a large dense animal such as a moose, bear, or bison.
Great video thank you for your efforts guys, please do more of these videos. Would be good to see some hard cast videos for us straight wall season boys
Used to rock 130gr ballistic tip cup & core for deer and 150gr partition for elk in my 270win. Now I use 130gr accubonds for both. Clean bull elk kills out to 422 yards so far. Bonded bullets made the game much simpler when seasons overlap. Thanks for confirming what I suspected all along.
But what brand of bullet was the copper bullet? I mean Barnes have been making the copper for a lot longer than most. Some copper bullets may be that way but does all act that way at 500yrds? Just an added question to compare other rounds.
If your going to shoot copper you should shoot Barnes. When it comes to copper hunting ammo I shoot Barnes because nothing else performs like it. I've shot all kinds of lead bullets and they never seem to hold up like they claim. You hit bone with lead bullets and it will fragment and you will loose chunks of bullet. Doesn't matter if its bonded or not cause I've seen it. You shoot Barnes copper bullets and the worst that could happen is you loose a little piece of pedal but everything else holds together.
@@travissmith-wz5nc they make federal premium 165 grain Barnes tsx in 308 win. For 243 win they offer the federal premium 85 grain tsx. They also have a couple offerings with the tipped tsx or ttsx
I've shot many different brands and types of bullets in 30 cal over 50 years of hunting elk and mule deer. Without question, the bonded bullet is superior at various ranges, angles, and placement. 30 years of shooting Swift Sorocco bullets and, more recently, the Accubond for longer range applications. Highly recommend these for the bigger (deer) game. Whitetail it are typically smaller and closer, so bullet construction is less critical. Shot several of those, too. Cheers!
Cup n core had by far best performance... the most damage/shock, due to dump of all energy. Thats what kills. Plus it has best bc, therefore makes you a better/accurate shooter. I seen hours and hours of eldm/atip/amax, bergers, also other match bullets, and then traditional bullets gel tests, gel tests with meat, skin and bone. There are crappy match bullets for hunting, and crappy hunting bullets for hunting. The best match bullets beats best hunting bullets for hunting, both in internal performance, and obviously ballistics. Top bullets to hunt are match hornandy bullets, berger hybrids, and then sierra tmks. I take bergers because they have most consistent bc. Folks swear by 215gr hybrids. Only animal that basically needs copper, is wild beast, due to having insane amount of muscle that secures vitals. On wild beast, copper would look more like bonded... it would expand due to all the muscle resistance. But for the north america, go with cup n core, or bonded lead. For bears for sure go with as soft as possible, like cupncore. The fat on bear acts as lube on the bullet, bonded lead would expand much less. Do not forget that to reach vitals on deer is only 3 inches, on elk is 4... so berger does great, dumps energy, creates trauma, where its needed... right in the vitals. When you open animal, often see no lungs... its gone, its a soup. Impossible to survive, thats why animals either drop there, or run at most like 30 yards. Usually if you put it behind shoulder, it not only destroys lungs, but also sends shock to the heart below, and central nervous system. Berger hits 3 out of 3 important areas. Bergers/eldms often destroys buckets and tablets on which gel is sittin.. its just insane amount of energy dump. edit: and yes, there was done in even more extent, check long range hunting group youtube chanel, army vet, doing these type of tests for years now, he also does own taxidermy. I did a lot of research on this, including forums, and yt videos... my mentioned match bullets are the way to go, taken in all considerations, especially for north american game. edit: yall said on sum up that bonded did most damage, it is not... not even close to what bergers did. also a lot of times yall cut short replays, on some still can see berger table/plywood started to break. in damage wise, bonded is like mid weight boxer, cup n core is like heavyweight.
Great test, short and sweet with a dose of MeatEater credibility. I'd love to see some taped barrel, accuracy testing with slow-mo of the muzzle included. Do you reckon you guys could have a crack at that? A buddy of mind banana'd is rifle recently. Some visual education around this issue would be fantastic👍👍
I really enjoyed these tests. I have had a sour taste in my mouth regarding full copper bullets when it comes to deer hunting as I have seen them deflect off bone at 100 yards along with flying through the animal without expanding. However I really like them out of a caliber such as 223, as they really do some damage. I still stick with "interlock" cup and core bullets for 90% of my hunting due to the max ranges being 150yards and I have never had one of them fail. When I hunt at longer ranges I will use a bonded bullet with my "dedicated" rifle for those instances.
Mostly a good video. The gel demonstrated the temporary wound cavity very well but I feel you also left out an important aspect and that was showing and measuring the permanent wound cavity each bullet type left in gel. I think you would have found the cup and core Berger bullet out performed in that aspect, which in theory would lead to a faster kill with more tissue upset and damage.
With only forty some years of experience hunting whitetail and elk I've become partial to the Nosler accubond first and partition second. Would love to see a Accubond partition. I've shot five different brands of bullets over the years and love the Nosler accubond hand loads I'm currently using.
@@RadDadisRad if you have nothing to add but stupid quips I suggest you leave me alone. copper is pretty toxic itself to humans, plants, aquatic life,... something you choose to ignore because it doesnt suit your preconceived notion.
@@TripleCOddyssey 1. copper is toxic on many levels and what you call excess is actually pretty little of the stuff. 2. lead is toxic. but not in metallic form. oxidised, sure. so go bark at industry of decades of using TEL in cars. The impact of lead bullets on any level of toxicity is laughable.
Don't have a lot to go off but in my limited experience I have found full copper to have less meat damage. I'm guessing it's cause it doesn't fragment off like any bullet containing lead may. Last elk I took at 300yd with Barnes TSX through the shoulder and scapula had very little meat damage and the elk "Didn't go 20!" 30-06 165gr TSX
Great test for checking individual performance, but comparing them is difficult because the different bullet weights will have different ballistics and energy at the tested ranges. I'd love to see a test that shows how each projectile reacts when hitting gel and scapula with the same energy. I know for me, knowing what energy my Barnes ttsx 180gr need to effectively expand is what sets my max shot distance for an ethical hunt.
Ttsx expansion, like all copper bullets, isn't depended on energy, it's dependent on velocity. Most copper bullets need to be over 2000 fps to expand which can be pretty limiting depending on where you hunt and what caliber you hunt with.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 kinetic energy Is calculated by .5 x mass x velocity ^2, so velocity is one component, the other being the weight of the projectile.
@@EskimoChild169 I understand that, I am telling you you're wrong. Expansion is dependent on velocity, not energy. If you set your maximum ethical distance based on energy you will be wrong because the bullet needs 2,000 fps regardless of the energy the bullet has. A 180 grain will hold more energy down range than a 150 grain, but that doesn't matter because it will also be going slower, and if it's under 2,000 fps it won't reliably expand, regardless of the weight of the projectile. Both bullet maximum ethical distances are dependent on when they hit 2,000 fps, not when they hit a certain energy.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 and I'm saying you can't separate energy and velocity in the case of expansion, you can't have one without the other. Anyways, happy thanksgiving!
@@EskimoChild169 What you're saying makes no sense. The energy depends on the weight of the bullet, expansion does not. You need to separate energy and velocity since energy depends so heavily on weight while expansion does not. Why waste time with energy, which requires you to know velocity, when you only need to know velocity??
Any idea of velocities? Would be interesting. Experience is Cu is lighter and traveling at increased velocity which seems to enhance hydrostatic shock (in African Plains Game). Not sure if this is just a (biased) perception?
I believe Berger bullets are designed to penetrate a few inches and then essentially explode. Their theory is that the massive amount of hydrostatic shock (as you could see in your demonstration) is half of what kills. So they did in fact perform exactly as designed. It would have been nice to see a more “standard” cup and core like a Remington Core Lokt or Hornady Interlock. Otherwise, awesome demonstration and great data!!
I absolutely agree. Something like a Hornady Interlock or Speer Grand Slam would be more of a traditional cup and core designed to mushroom and have high weight retention. Bergers were not the best example to use. But nonetheless it was a good video.
Berger 215's are the go to for most Elk Hunters. For deer, ANYTHING will work but for Elk/Moose/Bear I would want something that will punch through bone a bit better. All that being said, nothing flys like a berger.
That's what I was thinking. The bergers were designed to take in material for a few inches before that material causes the cavity to rupture. That model of bullet performed exactly as designed but that fact was ignored in order to put their own endorsed bullet ahead of a whole broad type of bullet. Can't blame them though, they are businessmen, they have to show bias towards their own product even if it means misleading consumers away from a superior performing bullet.
Interlocks have a mechanical bond
That’s not what hydrostatic shock is
Throwback to the 'Mythbuster-esque' blueprints
Great
100%
Best meat eater content to date.
Longer cuts and viable content not just entertainment.
Look forward to more like this
Would love more videos like this based on the rifles and cartridges you guys/gals use for different situations.
They use what they're sponsored to use. A 9.3x62 will kill everything in America in a cartridge that anyone could manage the recoil from.
The buff in my display pic was shot with a 50 cal muzzleloader. Being able to consistentl put a bullet where it needs to go is far more important than a calibre for this and a gun for that.
I’ve shot deer with all 3 at various ranges. Pigs did fine with the copper solid but did absolutely nothing to multiple white tails. By contrast cup and core & bonded from 308 & 30-06 worked fine regardless of the range.
Personally I think that the target & velocity changes everything. Smaller calibers such as the 6.5’s at higher speeds, or 30’s over 30-06 velocities are fine with all copper bullets. Or if the target is a more toughly built critter.
@@flintandball6093 you're absolutely right but there are still performance differences that people have fun being soy boys about and that kind of content would not go unwatched
@@soonerfrac4611 I watched my brother pole-axe a tahr from 550m (600ish yards) with 150gr TTSX out of a 30-06. I used to shoot nothing but coppers but have moved back to bonded bullets more. I really love Norma Oryx out of my 275 Rigby. Not that I shoot centrefires much anymore.
Yes please, this is what I want too
Hello from Kalispell!
Copper monolithic bullets are great for typical hunting distances, inside 200 or 300 yards. But beyond that distance, they have two fatal flaws; they require higher impact velocity to initiate expansion, and they don't have the BC of lead core bullets. Copper is harder than lead and has a much higher melting temperature (~1984 deg F), so copper bullets have a higher minimum velocity threshold for expansion, typically somewhere around 2000 to 2200 fps. And copper is less dense than lead, so a bullet of a given volume will have less mass. This means a copper bullet will have less mass and a lower sectional density than a lead core bullet of the same volume. Because sectional density is critical to computing ballistic coefficients, having a lower SD means an all copper bullet will have a lower BC than a lead core bullet of the same shape and volume. These two short comings work together to rob the monolithic expanding copper bullets of usable range because they need more velocity to expand, but lose velocity faster than lead core bullets.
Lead is actually a perfect material for bullet construction. It is malleable and easy to shape, has a low melting point, and a higher density. This helps it maximize SD and BC for a given volume and shape. And high velocity rifle bullets will reach temperatures of 550 to 600 deg F due to friction with the bore and the air. Lead melts at ~621 deg F, so the lead core of a bullet will be near a liquid state when it impacts, allowing for better expansion at lower impact velocities. Some lead core bullets can show usable expansion down to 1500 or 1600 fps. These two advantages help maximize velocity retention and provide optimal terminal performance at longer ranges, making lead core bullets much better when ranges start getting out past 300 yards.
Outstanding explanation.
Where do the Lehigh defense rounds land? Non expanding copper bullets meant for penetration and cavitation.
Excellent Review
Great content! I really appreciate the longer format as well. I’d love to see this same test with other bullets. Partition, Ballistic Tip, Accubond, TTSX, etc.
Personally speaking, after over 30 years of big game hunting, it’s hard not to reach for Partitions. They’ve performed brilliantly on everything.
You won’t, unfortunately. Meateater has a deal with Federal and this video is essentially a Federal Trophy Copper promotion.
I agree with you though. The partition, accubond, and lrx/ttsx would be the better bullets to use for this test.
wouldve liked to see a barnes copper bullet. federal's copper bullets have always been subpar for a copper bullet.
I don't have any experience with Federal solid coppers but I feel the Barnes, Makers, and a few others would give better results
@@IamONaLIST I wish a major manufacturer would load Maker bullets.
ive had good luck with federal trophy copper slugs
I use a barns ttx 155 grain in my 7mm 08 at 2750 fps. Used interlock core before and wasn't pleased with the put down it had on an elk with good shot placement. Sure enough the interlock came apart but the copper stayed together and expanded throughout the animal. 120 grains may be too light to apply enough force to expand and mushroom the bullet, but is heavy enough for lead. I would bet at 160 grains the copper would expand much further than it did here.
@@nathanadams1332 It's not so much the weight of the bullet as it is how it's designed to expand at certain velocities. I shoot a lot of 300blk and there are manufacturers who make solid copper bullets from 90gr all they up over 200gr, from super sonic velocities all the way down to subsonic velocities. Discreet Ballistics (primarily subsonic bullets), Maker Bullets, Barnes Bullets make a variety of solid coppers that expand to around 2 to 3 times their caliber size. Some of these in .308 expand to around 1 inch.
This is one of my favorite Meateater pieces of content yet! Well done and I hope to see more in depth hunting gear nerd outs.
I think the Berger is in it's own category; being designed to fragment. The "standard" cup and cores sometimes fragment, but they are not designed to do so.
Bergers are designed for shots 500 yards and out past that! They are not designed for shots under 300 yards unless your shooting a non magnum! Just my 60+ years of hunting and reloading speaking! Our job as the hunter is to determine what kind of hunting we are doing on what kind of game and choose the best bullet for that hunt!
Bergers are crap. Best used on paper.
@tbo2307 maybe if you are shooting something larger than whitetails. I don't use them any more to keep lead out of my meat, but they emulsified the internals on 4 whitetails for me; putting them down fast. Ballistic tips did the same thing when pushed hard, especially at close range. I'm a Barnes TTSX fan now; expand, retain weight, and pass theough.
Great video. I will say that I’ve harvested four deer at a variety of ranges from 90 to 300 yards with the Berger Hybrid in 7 REM mag and it has performed great. Each time the bullet penetrated into the vital cavity perfectly and devastated the heart and lungs with practically no wasted meat or shattered bone.
To me this just confirms what we already know about these types of bullets. Coppers rely on velocity to work properly, Bergers claim to penetrate 2-3 inches then expand is true, and bonded lead core bullets just flat out work. Overall great video guys! This should be shown in every hunter education class.
Agree with all of that except Bergers don’t expand, they explode. 😂
@@theliberating1 on critters I don't doubt it. Especially at close range
I shoot mostly cooper bullets (Barnes). I was very please to see how quickly the copper bullets begins to expand. The Bonded was impressive at the expansion at long range. It seems to give destructive expansion at both short a long range. Very well done test. I agree that I would have like to of seen a different cup and core bullet than the Berger. The 140g Nosler BT in the 6.5 CM would have been interesting.
Really great test! Just wish you used a normal soft point bullet (e.g. interlock) for the cup-and-core instead of a hard point VLD...
That was my thought as well. It should perform similar to the bonded bullet except for expanding sooner and not penetrating as far.
Love the time and detail you put into this. This helps not only to understand but make better choices in different hunting applications. Would love to see more of this type of testing on all types of things.
Don’t reply! Scam alert
I love what you did. I dont want to ve critical at all because what you compared was awesome and done really well. I wouldn't have used Berger for the cup and core example. That bullet did what Berger advertises it to do. Hornady Interlock, Speer Grand Slam, Sierra GameKing, Nosler portion, Swift A frames, etc. Are more tradional cup and core bullets that are designed differently than Bergers. The ones mentioned are made for higher weight retention.
It would be awesome if you did this again with only cup and core bullets with different designs from one manufacturer. For instance Hornady Interlock, SST, and ELDX. Speer BTSP, Hot Core, and Grand Slams. They are all made cup and core yet different designs for different results.
They’re sponsored by federal all 3 of those bullets are factory offerings from federal.
The partition style bullets are different from regular cup and core because of that copper partition in the middle that prevents over expansion/fragmentation. They are proven bullets and the gold standard when it comes to terminal performance. Lots of guys for some reason like those match style or eldx bullets that fragment and come apart more so I think it was good to use a match or eldx style. They work ok at lower velocity but at higher velocity they suck and are really inconsistent.
The Berger certainly didn’t perform like a traditional cup and core. More like a frangible FMJ. No real expansion, as the hollow point tip is still intact.
@@Nick-sx6jm my son shot a cow elk at 178 yds with a 7mm Rem mag with a 150gr ELDX and it perfom as advertised. The top portion of the bullet fragmented, but the bottom was mushroomed and still in tact and it was found in the opposite side shoulder. I wish I could post a pic on here. I was actually impressed with how well it held up at those velocities at that range.
@@andycronin6170 I shot a buck at 325 yards with a 162gr eldx from a 28 nosler so it was probably going about the same speed. The buck was walking and stepped into a depression as I shot and I hit it in the spine. The bullet completely exploded. I thought it was a perfect shot because the last thing I saw was the buck drop but even 2 hours later when I got to it it was still alive. I have had other problems with differnt types of cup and core bullets and thats why I said they fragment or can be inconsistent. Sometimes they work great (especially at low velocity) but they also often disappoint.
This was well put together. Thank you for shooting the blocks at range and not like 25 ft away. My bullet choice is based on anticipated impact velocity and animal. Backwoods deer hunting within 150 yards (higher impact velocity) ill go with a bonded or copper bullet (Nosler Accubond or Barnes TSX). In cases with longer range shots (lower impact velocity) ill go with a traditional lead core bullet like the Nosler Partition or Hornady Interlock. Everyone wants to shoot high BC bullets, but what really matters is can you place the shot in the boiler room and are you using the right cartridge/bullet for the task.
I shot the accubond the first time this yr. Shot two. 180 grn 300win. 90 yards and at 500 yards. Neither close of far expanding both had to pin holes. I was very disappointed. All good shot placement behind the front shoulder. Want shoot them ever again.
At what point in your processing of the deceased animal did you determine the bullet failed?
Excellent test and discussion. I have settled on the Nosler Accubond LR in my 7mm Rem Mag handloads. They are accurate (sub 3/4 moa). I have not yet taken game with them but I am sure they will be effective at all practical distances
Just reloaded some 175gr ABLR in my 28 nosler that im going to test this weekend. Hope they get similar group sizes to yours and around 3200 fps.
Great video and information. Thank you! I saw how cup and core bullets perform this year when I recovered the copper jacket cups from two whitetails I harvested. The cores were gone and caused good exit wounds. The copper jacket cups were nicely expanded but found inside the cavities. Both bullets did their job but came apart. I can see how a bonded or copper bullet would perform better in a larger animal.
Thanks for the informative video! I've been using 150gr Trophy Copper in my 7mm Rem Mag since 2008 with extreme reliability. I won't feed my loved ones potentially lead-tainted meat ever again. Shoot straight, folks!
Great content. I’ve hunted with Nosler Accubond for years with multiple calibers (.243, .270, 6.5 CM) and have taken everything from pronghorn to elk with a single shot. I’ve also been able to recover two bullets from game animals (.270 out of an elk @ ~380 yards and 6.5 CM out of a pronghorn @ ~160 yards). Both bullets showed near perfect expansion. I’ve recently switched to copper due to lead fragmentation concerns in meat. I’ve not yet shot a game animal with solid copper but am certainly looking forward to my own comparisons. I’m certain I won’t have any problems with the monolithic bullets and this video proves the point. Thank you for this exception video.
Love this, I’d like to request an archery version using the deer scapula. Compare fixed and mechanical heads, heavy Ashby style arrows versus light etc something like that
Or you could just not shoot deer in the shoulder?
@@ChrisJones-nm4id That would be ideal, but it’s a good idea to plan for the worst.
@@patternpaper4940 Why would you plan to shoot a deer in the shoulder? Shot placement should be a higher priority than just pulling the trigger
@@ChrisJones-nm4id You plan for it so that if it happens you have given yourself the best chance possible for success. That’s like saying “Why buy smoke detectors? Just don’t light your house on fire” or “Why wear seatbelts? Just don’t crash”
@@ChrisJones-nm4id bad shots happen. They happen all the time and they happen to some of the best archers in the world. Why wouldn't you have the best set up to allow you the shooter the most forgiveness in every situation?
Awesome video. I hunt with 180 grain Berger hybrids and have always been amazed at how after initial impact, they turn and destroy random stuff. I have yet to shoot a big game animal and have the bullet exit. It has been more common that after entering an animal broad side, it turns almost 90 degrees. After watching this, it makes a lot more sense to me.
I would give the ABLR or the bonded bullet they used in this test a try. I have used all 3 types and the bonded bullets by far perform the best in the real world on game. They kill quickly and consistently, give deep penetration, and not a lot of meat loss.
I hit my elk last year with the Berger 195 at 375 yards from a 26 inch 28 Nosler… took 3 shots… not one bullet made it through the first lung. Garbage.
LOVE to see this type of experimental content coming from meateater crew. great job
I have shot a few Elk now with those Berger Bullets and have not had perfect shot placement, but they have never gone more than 100yds and always expired before I can get to them. Love them Bergers! Like a mini grenade going off.
Great test and footage. Looks like they’ll all work on a deer quite effectively as long as you put the bullet in the right place. Would be cool to see you guys get into some NRL Hunter matches. They’re a ton of fun and help you learn to shoot better rapidly
This is the most scientific and engineering approach i have ever seen comparing real world performance simulation in all 3 bullet type / construction categories. Awesome! Thank you!
I have used all types of hunting projectiles and most of them do a pretty good job at 100 to 200 yards.
But the one I have been the most impressed with is the Barnes TTSX I use 185gr and 250gr depending what I am hunting with my 338 win mag
100 to 500 yards I have been impressed
Excellent video. In my limited hunting experience game seem to run longer with a Barnes TTSX ( tipped all copper)than with a Berger Hybrid Hunter ( Cup & core).
Good luck having a blood trail on smaller calibers though with that Berger. The copper should produce a way bigger exit wound.
This is great! Thankyou for putting this out there as I and deciding on a preferred cartridge(s) for elk, bear, and deer. This is certainly the stuff that all hunters can benefit from
.308win/30-06
Super valuable! From California so been hunting with only copper for the last few years so kept the same as we hunted elk in Colorado and now moved to North Carolina. Was thinking of switching back to lead (for cost and availability reasons) but now think we'll probably stay with what we've got. Certainly lots of development being done with copper and it will be the future as lead is slowly phased out.
Great information. I would love to see the same test with multiple copper projectiles for those of us that are forced to use lead free ammunition.
Go Barnes… they’ve been at it the longest, but Horns CX is a great option as long as you’re moving around 2K and up at target.
Great Video! My personal preference are Barnes line up (TSX, TTSX, LRX). They all performed well for me out to at least 400 yards in various calibers.
I know this is old I'm replying to but only Barnes copper worked for me and then only 130 & 168 grn in 308.
.7 MOA in a hunting round is what I'm talking about, Barnes copper. I've seen better accuracy but not often and this bullet retains mass. I'll stick with it for now.
Absolutely great video! I’d love to see something similar with shotguns, analyzing different kinds of shot and different gauges would be quite interesting.
Scammer alert, don’t reply
Incredible tests! We need to see more bullets tested at long range especially with the bone in gel. Much appreciated guys.
No choice out here in Cali.
I'm a new hunter so I have a lot to learn, but my opinion copper is a better option for conservation from what I understand so far.
Thank you all so much for the great videos.
Barnes are better copper bullets. Hammer bullets are also amazing if you load your own. I am currently testing some Badlands Precision bullets but I’ve yet to see an animal in season with a loaded round in my chamber this year! 😭
You’re not missing anything. Copper performs beautifully.
Copper needs speed. Barnes LRX is designed to work at slower speeds now, so it will work at longer ranges, as it slows down. Generally speaking: Tsx 2000fps, ttsx 1800, LRX 1500.
@@waynemensen4252 The .308 175 LRX going 3100 fps is devastating on pigs at 30 yards. 😂 It vaporized the heart and blue out the front shoulder when I hit him quartering to me.
@@waynemensen4252 thank you, I was wondering about the difference between them.
Great video, I love the fact each shot was into fresh gel. Very informative. I liked seeing the performance of each type of bullet. Just from my personal experience in the field with each type of bullet I always choose the bonded bullets as I feel they perform the best for my needs.
Great test, but interesting what each person considers "success." I considered the scapula damage a failure since it'd ruin a lot of meat. Coming from "Meat Eater" any thoughts on what part of the impact causes the most muscle bruising and meat loss? When I've used copper on deer, I've always been impressed with how little meat loss I've had on the entry wound. Switched to bonded bullets a few years ago, and have had several deer and pronghorn with bone shards in meat. I've even had bone shards, from well-placed broadside shots, reach the guts, and really sucks to get bile on tenderloins! Thoughts?
I'd like to see a comparison of Copper bullets, from a range of manufacturers. I shoot Barnes TTSX and the expansion is the same as the Bonded bullet seen here. In the UK we have to be lead free in 4 years.
He needsto test barnes TTSX , Hornady GMX and will see that they work better than the Federal Trophy Copper
A side by side test of copper would be amazing. I reload only with copper bullets and the data that I have gotten from the manufactures for minimum opining velocity’s are 2,000fps with trophy copper and hornady, 1,800fps for lapua, and Barnes 1,800-1,600fps depending on caliber
I've used Barnes for 30 years. I don't have too. I've had no reason to change. They need speed to expand. Choose light for caliber bullets and send them. Generally speaking, tsx needs 2000fps to expand properly. Ttsx 1800, LRX, long range xtreme 1500. This changes some by caliber and the weight of the bullet. They have continually improved. Most elk cartridges will have an LRX that stays above 1500 a long way out. Don't shoot past where the bullet is below 1500.
No, it's not... Barnes usually fail to expand which is why a number of people have come away from them, certainly if they've dropped under around 2400fps. They just don't kill as well as lead
Finally somebody did a real test well done
One of the best videos for hunters! All the caliber and rifle talk but bullet is what matters most!
More of this type of content please! Great stuff
Scammer alert, don’t reply
I suggest wrapping the ballistic gel in Saran Wrap to keep the pressure inside the gel, for a more realistic representation of the shockwave. As it is, the gel can just float freely, but inside the body, there are other body parts keeping that wound channel together as a whole.
I found the difference between the bonded and jacketed bullets most interesting. Copper performs best with as much velocity as can be mustered to get the best expansion. The bonded bullets though retaining mass and tracking true through all the ranges is quite impressive. Though not quite applicable to hunting, it would have been interesting to see a sub sonic test at 140. Fairly certain that the jacketed bullet would manage to stay together under those conditions. Copper sub sonic probably would be terrible in that there would be no expansion and the bonded maybe might expand which would be interesting.
Yeah copper sub sonic would be terrible, it wouldn't expand at all, all copper bullets have a minimum velocity they will expand at. If you're going to shoot subsonic when hunting you want to do it with a caliber and projectile suited for it. A 6.5 creedmore is not a good caliber for subsonic, you need as much mass as possible when shooting subs because it's the only way to get more energy.
@@nathancovington544 1800fps is super sonic; about 1.6 mach.
There are some fantastic subsonic copper bullets from Discreet Ballistics in .308, 300BLK and 8.6BLK. Just be prepared to wait… but they’re worth it.
Great Test! I would like to have seen a measurement of the size of the mushroomed bullets to see which bullet expaneded to the biggest caliber.
Very well done test however I must say the cup and core was represented poorly in my experience. I have never seen or heard of anyone using a Berger bullet for hunting medium sized game or larger, to most people that Berger is a glorified match bullet that will kill well. However almost everyone I know across many states use core lokt , inter lokt ,powershok ,PowerPoint etc. and I feel the exposed lead tip bullets all open better and hold together better than represented by the Berger. Again great test, but the cup and core could have been better represented in my opinion.
I agree 100% with everything you said. Most folks would not pick up a box of bergers and head out the door. Does not mean they are bad, but definitely not going to be chosen over a core lokt, interlock, power shock, or power point. Otherwise the test was pretty damn cool
@@bradleyward8112 what you think about the federal fusion
Speer gold dots is what I've switched to. Phenomenal accuracy and deadly in everything I've loaded it in from 223 to 30-06
Bonded for sure. But I’m def never aiming for the shoulder, I’m not going to ruin that much meat on entry and even more on the opposite side. Damage wise, yes. Ethics wise no.
So, where do you aim?
@@armandassante5928 for the vitals. You should never aim for the shoulder. Double lung shots do not waste any meat and the animal won’t suffer or get away as much.
Good job guys, best bullet comparison I've seen, I'm shooting a 6.5-300 and trying to decide between Barnes/copper and berger, think I'm sticking with Barnes, thanks again
I’m using the 6.5 Creedmoor 125 Winchester XP copper this hunting season, Six doe’s from 40 yards to 210 yards, Dropped in there tracks, Clean wound channels, No blood shoot meat, Complete pass throw’s, Can’t what to try this in other caliber’s, Great Video, Keep them coming.
Iv'e been loading various Barnes bullets in all my hunting rifles ranging from .223 through 458 win mag for 15 years now and never found a rifle that didn't like them. Having said that the Barnes are more expensive and when I'm building loads for a gun that's just for shooting targets i use the Bergers due to cost and the fact that they are extremely accurate.
Truth
I did a test a while back
20% gelatine mix, 168gr Hornady ELD Match (polymer tip boat tail) @ 2538 fps (2332 ft/lb)Overall length of travel 16”
Clean entry and no expansion until the polymer tip broke away at 2” deep, expansion continued rapidly and immediately,
5” dissection cut revealed cavities with star seam cuts of up to 5” wide with a very little copper flake left at 3” deep
10” dissection cut reversed cavities with even more star seam cuts (up to 8 points) 6” wide (full width of gelatine) with more copper flakes at 8” and 9” deep
Expansion continued until 12” deep where speed slowed right down and cavities were no bigger than diameter of bullet left, small trailing lead from 9.5”-11” deep but massive lead trail from 13”-15” with small flakes of copper mixed in. Bullet expanded to from 7.82mm to 21.96mm (0.308 to 0.864) retained bullet weight is 89.2gr
Overall expansion range of 10” with 53% retained weight, I would suggest at least another 30% of the overall weight was left between 12”-15” in the form of lead
Great methodology! A much needed video. I’d love to see a follow up video comparing bullet expansion between 50-200m as many hunting situations I’ve experienced have been short range engagements
I have chosen the barns ttsx copper as my choice. Great expansion great flight. Every bullet I have recovered has opened perfectly bone or no bone.
Same,
Here we are required to shoot non lead so this was the best choice for me.
I also live in a lead free state so I explored the non lead line up and the barns ttsx worked the best for me. From .338 cal to .243
I recover one bullet from a black tail deer a few seasons ago. At 100 yards the Barnes ttsx did the job. But the crazy thing is that the bullet was sticking out from the boat tail out of the shoulder. So now I see why…. By the way it was a light bullet 100 grain out of a 25/06
@@joseehernandez2447 If you look at Berger's videos they explain that they want the bullet to expend all their energy inside the cavity of the animal so that it will barely exit leaving a solid wound channel and less likely to strike a second animal. I think that was proven in the tests that Meateater conducted.
Since most of the replies here are from non lead shooters. Do any of you load your own rounds? Looking for new load data using AA4350 but can't find any for Berger bullets which is driving me nuts.
This is my first year of using Winchester Copper XP Bullets (both 6.5 Creedmoor and .300 Winchester Magnum) and i will never go back to a lead projectile. The knockdown power the Copper XP bullets have amazed me. With both calibers i never lost a deer and with .300 Winchester Magnum it dropped them like a sack of taters and 6.5 Creedmoor expanded just like the .300 with a great blood trail but of course not the same knockdown but definitely a killer. I'm sticking with the copper.
I have using that ammo on my 270, have shot 6 deer with them one shot kill no problem at all
Well done! I love the subjective analysis. I see you are getting inundated with requests for a variety of different tests. One I think meat eater can sink it’s teeth into would be broadheads. Between your podcasts with the Ashby data and the gentleman from Iron Will recently, meateater has already explored some of the concepts. Now time to do your own data. I would think the test could be done similarly. Maybe add a layer of hide(leather) to the front face. Can’t imagine a need for as much distance variation so maybe include a wider variety of blades. And please include mechanicals. Fixed versus mechanical is one of the biggest arguments today. Excellent work guys.
Having recently been forced to switch to copper due to availability this definitely answers some questions and puts my mind at ease about preformance.
It is a shame they didn't include Barnes TTSX (best copper bullet IMO)
@@airlineplanespottingvideos5750 I believe federal uses barnes bullets?
Most of the copper bullets need a lot of velocity, so going for a lighter weight bullet in your caliber is the usual go to. But what's amazing about the copper is even with the lighter weight they typically penetrate as deep as the heavier lead bullets
Copper is a lighter metal than lead, so a projectile of the same dimension will also be lighter.
I’ve never seen a copper bullet perform as poorly as the one here, that was interesting to see.
While it is generally true that a solid copper bullet of the same dimensions will typically benefit from higher velocities compared to it's bonded lead core counterpart, it would be a mistake to see velocity as a general saviour for copper solids. It is way more important with copper bullet to give the terminal target velocities a good think. Which velocities do I get from my gun and which distances do I usually shoot game at? Choosing a copper bullet that has been designed for the resulting range of impact velocities will really make a copper bullet work great and guarantee that it will deform and/or disintegrate as designed and thus achieve the desired hydrostatic shock, wound cavity generation and penetration. Too slow velocities for the bullet and it might not properly deform (like the example here at 500 yards). Too high and it might fall apart (although that's less likely - and that's where "higher velocities are better" originates from)
Re-watching this after last weeks "gear talk" podcast adds a lot. I wish yall would have dropped both together, but the podcast was a great follow-up!
Excellent test. Would like to see how bone size & density changes things. I know exotic hunters that swear by copper (long before the mandates). They say African big game have denser/harder bone.
They’re also just bigger and require deeper penetration id guess
Excellent info. I always appreciate making decisions based off science and not opinions. This is great
Would like to see more tests done with copper bullets and barrel twist.
Would like to we how Barnes copper vortex 70 grain 5.56 in a 16 inch barrel ar15 . 1.9 twist. Compared to the others.
Great video. It showed me exactly why I use cup and core. I don’t like to track with a rifle!
I have trusted bonded core to put meat on my table for the last decade. Hunt almost exclusively whitetail & have tried all of the bullet types. Learned through trial & error. Where I hunt now, you need the deer to drop or leave a massive blood trail. Or else you’ll never find them.
Exit wound is paramount.
@@alemajo absolutely, pencil hole exits don’t let the blood pump. On the other end of the spectrum, a bullet that comes apart & doesn’t exit ain’t any good either.
One thing that was missed when comparing the bullets maintaining trajectory is the camera only shows vertical changes. Pointed out with the copper bullet @16:25 but if you look at the bonded bullet @15:55 it exits the side of the block closest to the camera so that bullet turned very hard to the right from its original trajectory.
Really would of been nice to see some new Remington core-lok tipped ammo used in this test.
Cup and core bullets have taken game effectively for years.
Using copper bullets that no one uses should have been Barnes or Hammer
Love this! That Terminal Ascent is really a smart design bringing together the higher BC of the cup and core bullet with the weight retention of the all copper bullet. Really hard to go wrong. I look forward to Federal releasing more bullets in this line. Would like a 250-300gr .338 cal. That thing would be a hammer from my favorite 33 Nosler.
Scammer alert, don’t reply
I would pick the TA every time of the 3 bullets tested. Just a fantastic design. Im a Nosler AccuBond guy, but technically that TA or the previous Trophy bonded tip are about the best design on the planet in my opinion. Weight retention from the solid shank, reliable expansion and bonding with a polymer tip. Whats not to like?
DANG it. I thought about this format awhile back. You all killed it and answered a lot of questions.
yall should do the same test on different copper bullets. like the hornady cx line against the berger copper and others. I recently switched my rifle(308) over to the CX line through hornady for two reasons, one is much high BC for the same weight projectile the second is for greater penetration. lately i've been chasing pigs and at distance 300yds+ I'm really enjoying the flatter trajectory, the ability to buck the wind better and so far with the cx, i haven't had a single pig soak up a round. in fact the last time i went out, i shot a sow through the next just under her spine, that bullet exited the sow and hit a 30lb piglet and passed the full length of its body before exiting.
What grain are you using in the 308 cx?
I always thought the copper was basically a 200-250 yard bullet. I am very very impressed with the bonded. The 143 gr ELD-X is the get er done bullet for me
Depends on cartridge and muzzle velocity. There’s videos of copper bullets expanding down to 2000fps.
143 gr is the .264 caliber. I have experience with Barnes. I will take the ELD-X any day. Heavier bullets for caliber do better in wind.
I love ELD-X. My favourite from Hornady and one of the best out there in my opinion for hunting projectiles. I’ve used it in 7mm mag, .308, .30-06, .300 Win, .300 PRC, and .338 Lapua to great affect up here in Canada. I’m going to stick with bonded for big game hunting as long as it’s legal and I don’t think that’s changing anytime soon.
@@zacharyeltom8483 The ELDX isn’t bonded though.
It is bonded. How it’s bonded, I think, is IP.
Hey boys I had the same questions you had and I can’t believe how dead on your answer was. I live in northern Canada and hunt elk with the 280 AI in a Kimber. I have in the past shot a lot of Bergers at paper mainly because I don’t agree with the complete fragmentation of a bullet to be effective on game. I have hunted with Nosler Partition bullets for 30 years but with trying to keep up with the times have hunted with Barnes bullets on Elk. When Nosler came up with the Accubond bullet I immediately tried them on elk. Then the Accubond Long Range bullets came along and that is where I am now. Interesting to find out that the LR are made with a softer comparison. I live in an area with a sufficient elk concentration that I can limit myself to a 350 yard shot or less which made your video all the more pertinent. Thank you for the best shooting video I think I have ever watched.
Mr. 280 AI.
Great video! One thing to note, the bullets were fired from a rifle with an 18 inch barrel, which means they were moving 150-200fps slower than what the specs are. At 500 yards, this means they hit at roughly 1800fps (not 1950-2000 as stated in the video) which is the bare minimum for copper bullet expansion. This is likely the reason the trophy copper barely opened up at that distance. Using a standard 24 inch barrel and/or a caliber with higher muzzle velocity and retains more velocity (6.5 PRC, 270 WIN, 7 Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag etc.) and a Trophy Copper bullet at 500 yards should be no problem.
It's still a trash bullet
I was excited to watch this video because the terminal ascent is the only bullet I hunt big game with. Would have been nice to keep it a secret though since I haven’t been able to find those bullets to reload for 30,28 and 264 caliber! Lol. Heads up, midway has terminal ascents loaded ammo for 6.5 creedmoor as of today 10-22-22
One of the best comparisons I’ve seen. I would to see a comparison of a bonded bullet to a partitioned bullet such as a Nosler Partition or Swift A-frame in a large dense animal such as a moose, bear, or bison.
I’d be copper all day long on those big boned animals.
Great video thank you for your efforts guys, please do more of these videos. Would be good to see some hard cast videos for us straight wall season boys
Used to rock 130gr ballistic tip cup & core for deer and 150gr partition for elk in my 270win. Now I use 130gr accubonds for both. Clean bull elk kills out to 422 yards so far. Bonded bullets made the game much simpler when seasons overlap. Thanks for confirming what I suspected all along.
But what brand of bullet was the copper bullet? I mean Barnes have been making the copper for a lot longer than most. Some copper bullets may be that way but does all act that way at 500yrds? Just an added question to compare other rounds.
If your going to shoot copper you should shoot Barnes. When it comes to copper hunting ammo I shoot Barnes because nothing else performs like it. I've shot all kinds of lead bullets and they never seem to hold up like they claim. You hit bone with lead bullets and it will fragment and you will loose chunks of bullet. Doesn't matter if its bonded or not cause I've seen it. You shoot Barnes copper bullets and the worst that could happen is you loose a little piece of pedal but everything else holds together.
My gun liked the hammer bullets best. But under 350 yards I think copper is best. Bullet holds together
But when federal is your sponsor, you shoot federal.
@@dutch9357 federal uses Barnes bullets in a lot of their premium ammo
@@vitalshok2238 I know nosler is their is the trophy copper bullet in 270.
@@travissmith-wz5nc they make federal premium 165 grain Barnes tsx in 308 win. For 243 win they offer the federal premium 85 grain tsx. They also have a couple offerings with the tipped tsx or ttsx
I've shot many different brands and types of bullets in 30 cal over 50 years of hunting elk and mule deer. Without question, the bonded bullet is superior at various ranges, angles, and placement. 30 years of shooting
Swift Sorocco bullets and, more recently, the Accubond for longer range applications. Highly recommend these for the bigger (deer) game. Whitetail it are typically smaller and closer, so bullet construction is less critical. Shot several of those, too. Cheers!
Cup n core had by far best performance... the most damage/shock, due to dump of all energy. Thats what kills. Plus it has best bc, therefore makes you a better/accurate shooter. I seen hours and hours of eldm/atip/amax, bergers, also other match bullets, and then traditional bullets gel tests, gel tests with meat, skin and bone. There are crappy match bullets for hunting, and crappy hunting bullets for hunting. The best match bullets beats best hunting bullets for hunting, both in internal performance, and obviously ballistics. Top bullets to hunt are match hornandy bullets, berger hybrids, and then sierra tmks. I take bergers because they have most consistent bc. Folks swear by 215gr hybrids.
Only animal that basically needs copper, is wild beast, due to having insane amount of muscle that secures vitals. On wild beast, copper would look more like bonded... it would expand due to all the muscle resistance. But for the north america, go with cup n core, or bonded lead. For bears for sure go with as soft as possible, like cupncore. The fat on bear acts as lube on the bullet, bonded lead would expand much less.
Do not forget that to reach vitals on deer is only 3 inches, on elk is 4... so berger does great, dumps energy, creates trauma, where its needed... right in the vitals. When you open animal, often see no lungs... its gone, its a soup. Impossible to survive, thats why animals either drop there, or run at most like 30 yards. Usually if you put it behind shoulder, it not only destroys lungs, but also sends shock to the heart below, and central nervous system. Berger hits 3 out of 3 important areas. Bergers/eldms often destroys buckets and tablets on which gel is sittin.. its just insane amount of energy dump.
edit: and yes, there was done in even more extent, check long range hunting group youtube chanel, army vet, doing these type of tests for years now, he also does own taxidermy. I did a lot of research on this, including forums, and yt videos... my mentioned match bullets are the way to go, taken in all considerations, especially for north american game.
edit: yall said on sum up that bonded did most damage, it is not... not even close to what bergers did. also a lot of times yall cut short replays, on some still can see berger table/plywood started to break. in damage wise, bonded is like mid weight boxer, cup n core is like heavyweight.
Bravo! This is brilliant! More of this from MeatEater
Lead on the range. Copper in the field.
Barnes is by far the best I’ve ever shot.
Lead belongs in the berm; hunt lead-free.
Hunt non-toxic, let the eagles eat!
Working on some better sticker ideas :P
Barnes is good ammo man. There 124gr +p+ 9mm hollow point is absolutely amazing as well as their full power 10mm
@@KennyFlagg thanks for saying that! I'm in full agreement. Let's be good land stewards and be mindful of the impact we have!
Great test, short and sweet with a dose of MeatEater credibility.
I'd love to see some taped barrel, accuracy testing with slow-mo of the muzzle included.
Do you reckon you guys could have a crack at that?
A buddy of mind banana'd is rifle recently. Some visual education around this issue would be fantastic👍👍
I really enjoyed these tests. I have had a sour taste in my mouth regarding full copper bullets when it comes to deer hunting as I have seen them deflect off bone at 100 yards along with flying through the animal without expanding. However I really like them out of a caliber such as 223, as they really do some damage. I still stick with "interlock" cup and core bullets for 90% of my hunting due to the max ranges being 150yards and I have never had one of them fail. When I hunt at longer ranges I will use a bonded bullet with my "dedicated" rifle for those instances.
This is the content meat eater needed.
Mostly a good video. The gel demonstrated the temporary wound cavity very well but I feel you also left out an important aspect and that was showing and measuring the permanent wound cavity each bullet type left in gel. I think you would have found the cup and core Berger bullet out performed in that aspect, which in theory would lead to a faster kill with more tissue upset and damage.
With only forty some years of experience hunting whitetail and elk I've become partial to the Nosler accubond first and partition second. Would love to see a Accubond partition. I've shot five different brands of bullets over the years and love the Nosler accubond hand loads I'm currently using.
This could be a 30 second video. Copper is king, non-toxic is king. The end.
I 💯 agree
I used the bonded bullets last year and shot 3 whitetails they were devastating on them. Really really like the bonded bullet myself.
Copper in no way will ever match the performance of a lead bullet. DRT has come the closest but its still only on par with a standard cup and core.
My dude, you just saw in the video how it literally expands the same at shorter distances
Would like to see the results of a partition style bullet
Copper wins automatically by virtue of not being a toxic material.
So you chose to ignore the toxicity of copper? You have gotta be kidding.
@@8asw8 Copper in excess can be toxic, Lead is toxic in any dosage. So what point are you trying to make?
@@8asw8 you’re right. Getting shot by a copper projectile is toxic for the living.
@@RadDadisRad if you have nothing to add but stupid quips I suggest you leave me alone. copper is pretty toxic itself to humans, plants, aquatic life,... something you choose to ignore because it doesnt suit your preconceived notion.
@@TripleCOddyssey 1. copper is toxic on many levels and what you call excess is actually pretty little of the stuff.
2. lead is toxic. but not in metallic form. oxidised, sure. so go bark at industry of decades of using TEL in cars. The impact of lead bullets on any level of toxicity is laughable.
Don't have a lot to go off but in my limited experience I have found full copper to have less meat damage. I'm guessing it's cause it doesn't fragment off like any bullet containing lead may. Last elk I took at 300yd with Barnes TSX through the shoulder and scapula had very little meat damage and the elk "Didn't go 20!" 30-06 165gr TSX
Also 6.5 bullets in copper deflect. In .277" and above they don't deflect near as much
Great video. Archery nexy?
Really good test! Very appreciative of the thorough approach
Thank you guys for the research. Now with different calibers! 🤗
Scammer alert, don’t reply
Great test for checking individual performance, but comparing them is difficult because the different bullet weights will have different ballistics and energy at the tested ranges. I'd love to see a test that shows how each projectile reacts when hitting gel and scapula with the same energy. I know for me, knowing what energy my Barnes ttsx 180gr need to effectively expand is what sets my max shot distance for an ethical hunt.
Ttsx expansion, like all copper bullets, isn't depended on energy, it's dependent on velocity. Most copper bullets need to be over 2000 fps to expand which can be pretty limiting depending on where you hunt and what caliber you hunt with.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 kinetic energy Is calculated by .5 x mass x velocity ^2, so velocity is one component, the other being the weight of the projectile.
@@EskimoChild169 I understand that, I am telling you you're wrong. Expansion is dependent on velocity, not energy. If you set your maximum ethical distance based on energy you will be wrong because the bullet needs 2,000 fps regardless of the energy the bullet has. A 180 grain will hold more energy down range than a 150 grain, but that doesn't matter because it will also be going slower, and if it's under 2,000 fps it won't reliably expand, regardless of the weight of the projectile. Both bullet maximum ethical distances are dependent on when they hit 2,000 fps, not when they hit a certain energy.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 and I'm saying you can't separate energy and velocity in the case of expansion, you can't have one without the other. Anyways, happy thanksgiving!
@@EskimoChild169 What you're saying makes no sense. The energy depends on the weight of the bullet, expansion does not. You need to separate energy and velocity since energy depends so heavily on weight while expansion does not. Why waste time with energy, which requires you to know velocity, when you only need to know velocity??
Any idea of velocities? Would be interesting.
Experience is Cu is lighter and traveling at increased velocity which seems to enhance hydrostatic shock (in African Plains Game). Not sure if this is just a (biased) perception?