They should: - All plagues cause attrition or at least reduced replenishement - plagues should spread further - plagues should stack ontop of each other - plagues should cost much much more than instead of being spammable weak sauce - plagues should have gatherable ressources or effects you get from killing certain groups/enemy types
I agree with everything except that plagues should cause attrition, as it was annoying to get plagued like that as the player, especially now that there are 3 Nurgle factions in the game, + additional 2 with plague mechanics, I think it is better they don't, but everything else sounds nice.
I think nurgle is in a really good spot now, the main complaints I have is that the new plague sysmptoms are weak (your plagues doesnt even spread corruption anymore) and mountains should be a pleasant biome, Tamurkhan victory conditions is literally about defeating grimgor (whose territory is mountain).
It’s a pity that Tamurkhan’s chieftains do not give a bonus to allied units. I hired mammoths from the Norscas and mortars from the Chorfs to add them to my stack with 3 leaders who, as I was sure, were supposed to give bonuses, but they received nothing except an increase in firing range from a unique talisman (because it gave an increase to all shooters units).Although it would seem that there would be no reason for stats to not scale from abilities, considering that you can keep a maximum of 4 units of allies in one army
@@CultistOfkhorneTamurkhan’s unique units are chosen, warriors, marauders, and rot knights. Khargan, Mournhowl, and Kazyk in Tamurkhan’s army on top of his bonuses turn chosen into absolute army blenders, and Rotknights just delete enemy cavalry.
@@DoinkertonGreeble I don't think even OP knows the answer to that question. Tretch is literally the most boring and basic of all the skaven lords. As close to vanilla flavour as you possibly can. While we may argue about Tretch and Queek being better or worse from one another, maybe even add clan Pestilence to the mix with their underwhelming plague mechanics (why no plague workshop or cauldron like with Nurgle factions?), we definitely can't put Tretch anywhere close to Ikit Claw. It's not a matter of taste here but pure facts - unlimited ammo on Rattlings is just ONE reason that Ikit is straight up broken and OP...and then we add all the other mechanics on top of that, something that Tretch is simply not capable of. Clan Moulder is also having access to similar "workshop" upgrades that make them stand out above.
I don't know, the plague mechanic was absolutely vital for my Epidemius campaign. By endgame, I could spread multiple max-power plagues per turn, and the tally was at maximum, which causes constant damage to enemy units in melee with my units.
A few tweaks I think they still need: -The option to pay larger amounts of infections up front to cycle rush, as manually clicking to spin is tedious late game. -Unique Ressource buildings need a rework as many are next to useless due to being *entirely* region locked, often offer strictly worse benefits than what other races get (Gold and Diamonds being exceptions) and don't even grant trade ressources. -Plagues need a rework, as the bonuses/debuffs are often meh on their own unless you hit a Blessed Symptom (and even then...). This would be fine if you didn't just get locked out of using the mechanic altogether for ~3 turns most of the time. They either need to hurt a hell of a lot more or be way more spammable/have a larger area of influence to compensate, because half the time only Epidemius gives a damn, and it's not even for the symptoms themselves. I actually think they should bring back recipes which you can unlock through random symptoms; if you craft the same Plague 7 times (maybe they need to have a blessed symptom) you can short-cut it later at will for a higher up front cost. -Unholy manifestations either need a buff, or should be universally accessible. Tamurkhan's chieftains are so much better it feels like Kugath doesn't even have a faction mechanic. They need to give em another other flavourful gimmick or make the once every 15 turn rituals actually great.
The new dlc had solved quite a lot of problem of progressing their campaign. They still have considerably slower start than other factions but its much easier for them to start snowballing once ya get ur economy going. If there are things I still want them to upgrade bout nurgle is the plague mechanics. The minor buffs are quite useful even tho its a bit RNG but I missed those super plague from the old one. The debuff they gave to the enemy are lackluster too. I found myself using plague to buff my army and settlements more than to debuff the enemy. Lastly… for the love of god CA, fix those hero’s traits bout buffing lord’s army. Those doesn’t work!
Yup, but sadly I don't think they will ever fix those traits. They said they would fix them for the Chaos Dwarfs almost a year ago now and they still aren't fixed.
I mostly agree with you but not with the plague system. They are not useless. The big problem is you can't affort them in early game because you need infactions for military building. But starting from mid game you literally can spam them. Especially when you make good use of the blessed symptoms. -15% or even -30% upkeep is always useful and also having a free heal and such things. Also -4/8 to a stat can make a difference especially when your army and the enemy got the plague. And also the AI is not almost immun to palgue attrition anymore.
I didn't say useless, just minimal impact, and something that is a unique race mechanic I would expect to be something you have to use, and use properly, to do well, not something you can completely ignore.
@@CultistOfkhorne They are not just minimal impact. You can ignore many race mechanics but that will hurt you anyway. For example the new Dwarf mechanics can be pretty much ignored. You gain those grudges alongside your battles anyway. Same for Empire Authority or also cathay ying and yang. Those can be pretty much ignored too and i did not even start talking about lizardmen or Kislev. You can destroy half of an enemy army with a plague if you time it correctly. They still bring you buffs and enemy debuffs, which you should not ignore. Plagues can be pretty helpful.
Kislev motherland invocations are much better, as they are always active on your entire territory, if you didn't notice I put lizards below them as lizardmen mechanic need dire help, empire just got a massive rework and they are immensely better, grudges can be ignored, but if you don't you will have a much stronger campaign. Nurgle plagues won't make your campaign stronger on their own and most of the time you won't feel any difference when using them then when not using them, but you will definitely feel a difference if you claim grudges and if you don't.
People make fun of Nurgle AI but in my Thorek campaign Tamurkhan conquered all of Cathay and Mountains of Mourn, confederated Kugath and had some pretty scary stacks of GW Chosen, Soul Grinders, Rot Knights, Toad Dragons and Great Unclean Ones lol. I was like this is a pretty cool serious threat from Nurgle, some battles were extremely hard when I fought them vs an autoresolve win as Dwarves!
@CultistOfkhorne Just played my first Nurgle campaign as Kugath (Fun btw). Tamurkhan beat grimgor and was also super strong. Don't get me wrong. I won't be playing Tamurkhan. He is so clunky and awkward. However, Nurgle are definitely pretty stromg now! Do they still need work!? Absolutely!!!
@@klaiken989 Yeah I was running Thorek's Quarreller doomstack and went up against Tamurkhan's army. Hoo boy, he had like 3 Soul Grinders, Chosen, Toad Dragons, and he also three uses of that Nurlge nuke that deletes infantry like Quarrellers. It was probably the perfect counter to my army. If AI Nurgle reaches superpower level their armies become quite strong because they spam Soul Grinders, single entites and Chosen, and their lords and heroes are also very strong.
I think the mountains being an unpleasant biome to tamurkhan is meant to mimic how in the book that introduced him, his journey through the mountains was very unpleasant and left his forces drained by the time he got to the empire. On the plague mechanic i find it very underwhelming and i feel it doesn't fully capture that nurgle fantasy of disease, the debuffs are very weak, attrition should be built into every plague, not just a specific plague trait, and its disappointing its main use is to provide buffs to your army, again i feel it doesnt really capture that plague fanatsy IMO
Yeah, plagues are definitely a miss, but I don't think making them cause attrition for every plague is not the answer, as it would suck when playing against it, it just wouldn't be fun. My thoughts on how they could have been better implemented was to be able to use infections on armies infected with plague to steal units or outright destroy them, similar to how Slaanesh can seduce them. I think that would make it pretty interesting as well as lore accurate of diseased people accepting Nurgles blessings to stay alive, or well you know, if not then they just die of plague.
In my opinion, Nurgle are definitely strong now! I mean by my turn 50-ish. I had so many insta-recruit toptier infantry, cavalry, and war beasts. That if anyone attacked from any positions that were undefended. I could create 20 stack top tier hordes instantaneously... I think perhaps your expectations for them were much higher. Thusly, you unobjectively see them as unwarrantly much lower than they really are!?!? 😅 I mean they definitely need some work when it comes to tech tree, plagues, and Tamurkhan just needs a faction mechanic rework already lol. With that being said. They are pretty strong now. I handled Cathay, Ghorst, Balthazar, Imrik, and Ogre Kingdom before turn 80. They have a slow start but as long as you are building correctly. You essentially have free units for the rest of your campaign. Infections were never in short supply either
I dont understand why tzentch and kairos are weak kairos as the best starting location and has a lot of easy way to get good unit For one of my campain i got a lord of change doomstack before killing teclis so its easy to get good unit and the economy is super strong
I'm not saying his campaign is difficult, but that he is weak. If you were to put him elsewhere on the map, where he had to deal with difficult opponents, he will struggle a lot more than any race ahead of him. Also his economy really isn't strong, but I went into a bit of detail why I put him there, so if you want you can go and watch it to understand better.
Kairos econ is decent only if your regions have Strong winds of magic, yes you can stack the increase chances but still micromanaging winds before end of every turn gets tedious quickly for me. Why can't I have a list like Chaos Dwarf instead of the horrible overlapping zoomed out circles that I have to adjust individually...
Yea i preferd the old plague and old plauged sucked , they need to do an all overl on plague and make that enmy take damege from it atm pc take no damege
They should:
- All plagues cause attrition or at least reduced replenishement
- plagues should spread further
- plagues should stack ontop of each other
- plagues should cost much much more than instead of being spammable weak sauce
- plagues should have gatherable ressources or effects you get from killing certain groups/enemy types
I agree with everything except that plagues should cause attrition, as it was annoying to get plagued like that as the player, especially now that there are 3 Nurgle factions in the game, + additional 2 with plague mechanics, I think it is better they don't, but everything else sounds nice.
I think nurgle is in a really good spot now, the main complaints I have is that the new plague sysmptoms are weak (your plagues doesnt even spread corruption anymore) and mountains should be a pleasant biome, Tamurkhan victory conditions is literally about defeating grimgor (whose territory is mountain).
It’s a pity that Tamurkhan’s chieftains do not give a bonus to allied units. I hired mammoths from the Norscas and mortars from the Chorfs to add them to my stack with 3 leaders who, as I was sure, were supposed to give bonuses, but they received nothing except an increase in firing range from a unique talisman (because it gave an increase to all shooters units).Although it would seem that there would be no reason for stats to not scale from abilities, considering that you can keep a maximum of 4 units of allies in one army
Yeah, I also found Tamurkhans unique units to be a bit lackluster in their implementation, but it was still a fun campaign for me.
@@CultistOfkhorneTamurkhan’s unique units are chosen, warriors, marauders, and rot knights. Khargan, Mournhowl, and Kazyk in Tamurkhan’s army on top of his bonuses turn chosen into absolute army blenders, and Rotknights just delete enemy cavalry.
You should really consider evaluating Tretch as a separate faction because he is so much stronger than other scaven
skaven agree!! we need a beeter plague system
@@kaa-or6kjI think skrolk working like or with nurgle would be cool
What makes him stronger?
@@DoinkertonGreeble I don't think even OP knows the answer to that question. Tretch is literally the most boring and basic of all the skaven lords. As close to vanilla flavour as you possibly can.
While we may argue about Tretch and Queek being better or worse from one another, maybe even add clan Pestilence to the mix with their underwhelming plague mechanics (why no plague workshop or cauldron like with Nurgle factions?), we definitely can't put Tretch anywhere close to Ikit Claw. It's not a matter of taste here but pure facts - unlimited ammo on Rattlings is just ONE reason that Ikit is straight up broken and OP...and then we add all the other mechanics on top of that, something that Tretch is simply not capable of.
Clan Moulder is also having access to similar "workshop" upgrades that make them stand out above.
I use the plagues constantly
The upkeep plague and income plague and construction cost etc. are huge
I don't know, the plague mechanic was absolutely vital for my Epidemius campaign. By endgame, I could spread multiple max-power plagues per turn, and the tally was at maximum, which causes constant damage to enemy units in melee with my units.
Yeah, but that is Epidemius unique mechanic, and I said I really like it and that it should be given to every Nurgle faction only slightly different.
A few tweaks I think they still need:
-The option to pay larger amounts of infections up front to cycle rush, as manually clicking to spin is tedious late game.
-Unique Ressource buildings need a rework as many are next to useless due to being *entirely* region locked, often offer strictly worse benefits than what other races get (Gold and Diamonds being exceptions) and don't even grant trade ressources.
-Plagues need a rework, as the bonuses/debuffs are often meh on their own unless you hit a Blessed Symptom (and even then...). This would be fine if you didn't just get locked out of using the mechanic altogether for ~3 turns most of the time. They either need to hurt a hell of a lot more or be way more spammable/have a larger area of influence to compensate, because half the time only Epidemius gives a damn, and it's not even for the symptoms themselves. I actually think they should bring back recipes which you can unlock through random symptoms; if you craft the same Plague 7 times (maybe they need to have a blessed symptom) you can short-cut it later at will for a higher up front cost.
-Unholy manifestations either need a buff, or should be universally accessible. Tamurkhan's chieftains are so much better it feels like Kugath doesn't even have a faction mechanic. They need to give em another other flavourful gimmick or make the once every 15 turn rituals actually great.
Yup, I agree with you.
It annoys me that Nurgle doesn't have a building that increases the recruit rank of lords like most other factions.
The new dlc had solved quite a lot of problem of progressing their campaign. They still have considerably slower start than other factions but its much easier for them to start snowballing once ya get ur economy going. If there are things I still want them to upgrade bout nurgle is the plague mechanics. The minor buffs are quite useful even tho its a bit RNG but I missed those super plague from the old one. The debuff they gave to the enemy are lackluster too. I found myself using plague to buff my army and settlements more than to debuff the enemy. Lastly… for the love of god CA, fix those hero’s traits bout buffing lord’s army. Those doesn’t work!
Yup, but sadly I don't think they will ever fix those traits. They said they would fix them for the Chaos Dwarfs almost a year ago now and they still aren't fixed.
I mostly agree with you but not with the plague system. They are not useless. The big problem is you can't affort them in early game because you need infactions for military building. But starting from mid game you literally can spam them. Especially when you make good use of the blessed symptoms. -15% or even -30% upkeep is always useful and also having a free heal and such things. Also -4/8 to a stat can make a difference especially when your army and the enemy got the plague. And also the AI is not almost immun to palgue attrition anymore.
I didn't say useless, just minimal impact, and something that is a unique race mechanic I would expect to be something you have to use, and use properly, to do well, not something you can completely ignore.
@@CultistOfkhorne They are not just minimal impact. You can ignore many race mechanics but that will hurt you anyway. For example the new Dwarf mechanics can be pretty much ignored. You gain those grudges alongside your battles anyway. Same for Empire Authority or also cathay ying and yang. Those can be pretty much ignored too and i did not even start talking about lizardmen or Kislev. You can destroy half of an enemy army with a plague if you time it correctly. They still bring you buffs and enemy debuffs, which you should not ignore. Plagues can be pretty helpful.
Kislev motherland invocations are much better, as they are always active on your entire territory, if you didn't notice I put lizards below them as lizardmen mechanic need dire help, empire just got a massive rework and they are immensely better, grudges can be ignored, but if you don't you will have a much stronger campaign. Nurgle plagues won't make your campaign stronger on their own and most of the time you won't feel any difference when using them then when not using them, but you will definitely feel a difference if you claim grudges and if you don't.
the nurgle play style isnt for everyone... its not fast and furious... its seeping and insidious
I'm a novice but playing nurgle feels great now. I don't understand what you mean by the plagues, they feel wonderful now.
Because before you could get 20% physical resistance whenever you wanted on demand and now you get trash like slight melee attack
People make fun of Nurgle AI but in my Thorek campaign Tamurkhan conquered all of Cathay and Mountains of Mourn, confederated Kugath and had some pretty scary stacks of GW Chosen, Soul Grinders, Rot Knights, Toad Dragons and Great Unclean Ones lol. I was like this is a pretty cool serious threat from Nurgle, some battles were extremely hard when I fought them vs an autoresolve win as Dwarves!
In all my recent campaigns, Nurgle, Dawi, Empire, Tamurkhan always dies, so the fact he didn't in your campaign must be a putrid miracle.
@CultistOfkhorne Just played my first Nurgle campaign as Kugath (Fun btw).
Tamurkhan beat grimgor and was also super strong. Don't get me wrong. I won't be playing Tamurkhan. He is so clunky and awkward. However, Nurgle are definitely pretty stromg now! Do they still need work!? Absolutely!!!
@@klaiken989 Yeah I was running Thorek's Quarreller doomstack and went up against Tamurkhan's army. Hoo boy, he had like 3 Soul Grinders, Chosen, Toad Dragons, and he also three uses of that Nurlge nuke that deletes infantry like Quarrellers. It was probably the perfect counter to my army. If AI Nurgle reaches superpower level their armies become quite strong because they spam Soul Grinders, single entites and Chosen, and their lords and heroes are also very strong.
I think the mountains being an unpleasant biome to tamurkhan is meant to mimic how in the book that introduced him, his journey through the mountains was very unpleasant and left his forces drained by the time he got to the empire. On the plague mechanic i find it very underwhelming and i feel it doesn't fully capture that nurgle fantasy of disease, the debuffs are very weak, attrition should be built into every plague, not just a specific plague trait, and its disappointing its main use is to provide buffs to your army, again i feel it doesnt really capture that plague fanatsy IMO
Yeah, plagues are definitely a miss, but I don't think making them cause attrition for every plague is not the answer, as it would suck when playing against it, it just wouldn't be fun.
My thoughts on how they could have been better implemented was to be able to use infections on armies infected with plague to steal units or outright destroy them, similar to how Slaanesh can seduce them. I think that would make it pretty interesting as well as lore accurate of diseased people accepting Nurgles blessings to stay alive, or well you know, if not then they just die of plague.
In my opinion, Nurgle are definitely strong now! I mean by my turn 50-ish. I had so many insta-recruit toptier infantry, cavalry, and war beasts. That if anyone attacked from any positions that were undefended. I could create 20 stack top tier hordes instantaneously...
I think perhaps your expectations for them were much higher. Thusly, you unobjectively see them as unwarrantly much lower than they really are!?!? 😅
I mean they definitely need some work when it comes to tech tree, plagues, and Tamurkhan just needs a faction mechanic rework already lol. With that being said. They are pretty strong now. I handled Cathay, Ghorst, Balthazar, Imrik, and Ogre Kingdom before turn 80. They have a slow start but as long as you are building correctly. You essentially have free units for the rest of your campaign. Infections were never in short supply either
First! Looking forward to the analysis.
I dont understand why tzentch and kairos are weak kairos as the best starting location and has a lot of easy way to get good unit
For one of my campain i got a lord of change doomstack before killing teclis so its easy to get good unit and the economy is super strong
I'm not saying his campaign is difficult, but that he is weak. If you were to put him elsewhere on the map, where he had to deal with difficult opponents, he will struggle a lot more than any race ahead of him. Also his economy really isn't strong, but I went into a bit of detail why I put him there, so if you want you can go and watch it to understand better.
Kairos econ is decent only if your regions have Strong winds of magic, yes you can stack the increase chances but still micromanaging winds before end of every turn gets tedious quickly for me. Why can't I have a list like Chaos Dwarf instead of the horrible overlapping zoomed out circles that I have to adjust individually...
I second the notion that Tzeench is far stronger than you give him credit.
they should have mae it so heros die when catching plagues in nurgle territory
i still find plague mechanic pretty meh. It is not that impactful
Yea i preferd the old plague and old plauged sucked , they need to do an all overl on plague and make that enmy take damege from it atm pc take no damege
Please pass the info that nurgle plagues cant be created in multiplayer campaigns after unlocked
I would, but I don't really know to who, I'm not affiliated with CA, I have as much sway power as you do.
Are you saying Kairos is weak?
Seriously?
You don't think so?
IRL race ranking when?
you son of a very nice lady making me wait for the dwarf and empire rankings astagfirullah
WAZAAAAAA!!!
Sorry but plagues are far from useless
Didn't say they were useless, just that the bonuses were negligible.
I hate the Warhammer 3 economy. It was better in 2
Yeah, I also like Warhammer 2 economy, but if they brought it back they would probably bring back 15% supply lines as well :P