They're too tasty :( But kidding aside, it is a problem of coexistence when human population keeps growing as well as our unsustainable consumption... oh well, we'll see what happens.
Regardless of whether bivalves feel pain or not, farming them is more environmentally friendly than farming crops. Farming crops does have some negative environmental effects. You would kill less animals eating bivalves than eating tofu, beans, or lentils. If you really do care about animals, eating bivalves farmed responsibly is the way to go.
Why does everyone want to mess with everything? I swear every time a human comes across ANYTHING they think: Can I eat it? Can I fuck it? Can I sell it? leave the oysters alone
vickie g that's what people do with everything lols. if it's not useful for anything we do leave it alone. or destroy it because it's useless, depending on the person and the day. humans are such fickle creatures
+Vince Vince if that doesn't make sense you need to go and get your reading comprehension level checked, honestly not even insulting you but if that didn't make sense you seriously need to learn how to read better if you want to do well in life! if English is your first language anyway.
Before I went vegan I used to be upset that I was allergic to clams and oysters because i couldn't eat with my family. Now that I am vegan I'm glad I have a shellfish allergy cause I don't have to have an inner debate about whether vegans can eat oysters and clams 😂😂
A relative of mine nearly died from food poisoning after eating bivalves (despite no allergies). Plus eating bivalves involves eating the whole body, including the anus and all of the anal content. Regarding bivalve sentience, this neurology-based video covers a lot of interesting ground: No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)
I don't personally feel like I want to eat oysters/ other bivalves but given the debate over whether or not they feel pain I wouldn't shame a vegan for eating them.
Agreed. Any argument for bivalve pain/sentience could be just as easily applied to modern computers. Obviously we don't eat computers, but we create and destroy them without any consideration of pain or consciousness. It sounds absurd, I know. But my point is that there's just as much evidence (or lack of, rather) for bivalve sentience as there is for computer sentience.
As someone who's been on a plant based diet for 8 months now, I was thinking of adding mussels and oysters as another option. They're rich in zinc and omega 3s so maybe it's not the worst thing to turn to given that they don't appear to experience pain? Plus they're an available source of omega 3s, so nothing needs to be converted.
Most invertebrates arent sentient...Crabs, shrimp, lobster, crawfish probably arent...Oysters definitely arent...Most vertebrates are atleast sentient to some level, like fish
I'm not saying you're completely wrong, but to label these animals' experience as "awareness" and "pain" isn't accurate in my opinion. Platyhelminthes have a cerebral ganglion, yet they reproduce by willingly attaching to a surface and pulling themselves in two. The best available science says that the only invertebrates that feel pain (as opposed to stimulus aka nociception) are decapods (crabs, lobsters) and cephalopods (squids). While obviously humans don't need to consume bivalves, some may choose to because some authorities say that animal flesh is necessary. It also has an interesting possible application for feeding cats as to not value the lives of tens of sentient cows/chickens over a pet's life. In my opinion overall, sustainable farming of bivalves would not be unethical but certainly unnecessary for human consumption.
Brandon Brandon well, her point was that if the nutritional requierments of the cat can be accomplished in more ethicals way, it would be a moral obligation
Brandon Brandon is not about being "normal", veganism itself is not normal nor natural, is about ethics, and keep in mind that i clarify "if it is possible to give them a nutritionally complete diet, that way", whether it is normal or natural it is is irrelevenat if it is nutrionally complete and causes less suffereing, is ethical
Brandon Brandon no, animals can't conceptualize morality, but we can, that is why we would teach dogs not to bite other humans, or is that "imposing morality" also
These videos are so incredible, you put such great work into them and I love the commentary you add! I could totally see you as the perfect host for a vegan-focused show on the Discovery or Science Channel!
The presence of functioning nerves is not enough to deem a creature sentient or even aware. The leap from ganglia to consciousness is so incredibly outlandish and incoherent. This is the most ridiculous claim I've seen on this channel to date. There are plenty of ganglia throughout my body that respond to stimuli. But, we wouldn't call my spinal column "sentient". This is because motility and nerve impulses in reaction to stimuli need not be conscious. Hell, motility need not have anything to do with nerves. Fucking plants have motility. It can be completely blind, meaning consciousness need not come along for the ride whenever nerves are present. If you sever a person's head, and prick their finger with a needle, it moves. There's no consciousness involved. If you cut the head off of a fish and start to fillet it, it will still recoil even hours after death. This has nothing to do with consciousness. Can this guy be any more of an ideologue?
@@VeganofSuburbia If all humans descended from africa then aren't all humans from the same family? So why were homosapiens weaker than Neanderthals. Point is just because they are from the same family does not mean they are the same.
Mic, I'm really grateful you're creating the content that you are, and that you're putting the hours of research and clear logic into your work. You're by far my favourite vegan youtuber right now - thanks for your contribution :)
the website idea got me so excited haha! the ideas you said are awesome. I also thought there should be a section for reliable studies and researches, it would be so useful! I have no idea how to search for studies, but I guess you know what you are doing! There should be a collection of it, categorized by topics. keep on the good work Mike! :)
Just wrote a massive comment then the page froze, so I'll try to sum up quickly. Too many vegans don't think about degree when they think about harm. They judge with disdain, anger, and mockery when some vegans even try to talk about oysters and ethics, but those same people adopt cats even after going vegan. I don't eat oysters, and I do have a cat, but having a cat is equally selfish to eating oysters, but does far, far, FAR more harm. When I see vegans adopting multiple cats and dogs, eating whatever plant food they can find without any concern for the source, observing absolutely no ethical sense beyond 'Do not touch anything in the kingdom animalia", but then proceed to aggressively attack and try to marginalize and demonize people that try to understand veganism from a broader and more complicated point of view, I find it really hard to respect those people. I'm not saying that's what Mic is doing/saying, I haven't seen his thoughts on companion animals, or did but forgot, but his whole "give up your vegan label" comment definitely shows the attitude "hardcoreism", which aggressively pushes the idea of there being only one way to be vegan, which is coincidentally the simplest, most thoughtless, and the one you happen to like. You might choose not to call them vegans, but I used to eat oysters and mussels for about 6 months when I first went vegan and I happily called myself vegan, hung out with vegans, discussed the issue with the more understanding and patient vegans, and I still consider all of that justified. I now don't eat bi-valves for 3 reasons, because farming/hunting practices are hideous with mainstream sources, because I could still be wrong on the nervous system thing, and the biggest reason, I don't want to be alienated by or from a community with whom I am more or less on the same side over something that small. The last one is tied to a fourth reason which is I don't want other vegans to feel alienated because they've come to a different conclusion about oysters and mussels. No matter what you think, I think you have to acknowledge that bi valves are at the very least less able to experience pain than, say, the mammals, fish, and birds, that the 'hardcore' feed to their rescue cats. All I want from vegans is a little humility, a little consistency, a little more respect for reality. I don't get mad at 'asshole' vegans, every ideological movement has the assholes, they are inevitable and they are a vital part of the community; in the right balance, they motivate and activate fence sitters more than they alienate them. But if you're going to be an asshole vegan, and you get a cat, you can go fuck yourself because you are nothing but a mean, entitled, self important hypocrite.
thank you also for this well written analysis. i totes agree with you on the subject and pointd brought up. people should realize that there isnt one form of veganism. i have same opinions on crickets as you did with bivalves. crickets dont have pain receptors and have been shown to still be eating a leaf even if they are getting eaten by another animal.
"which aggressively pushes the idea of there being only one way to be vegan, which is coincidentally the simplest, most thoughtless, and the one you happen to like." Vegan has a definition. It means you don't eat animals. If you eat bivalves you are, by definition, not vegan. This isn't about "happening to like" one standard of being vegan, it's about there already being a well defined standard, which people use, and deciding to use the term differently is just going to confuse people and make communication difficult. You guys are all idiots, stop trying to force a change to the English language.
Not agreeing that eating them is ok, buuuuuuuuuut muscles and oysters aren't dredged 😐 they are farmed on wooden poles that are stuck into the ocean floor. They then lift out the pole, strip the muscles off and replace the pole.
I dont think it is a proof oysters feeling anything because they are moving since plants move, too and its just a reaction to their enviroment/ enviromental changes. :/ The only difference I see is that when you eat a plant you dont kill the whole tree, you just use a part of it. So the reason we shouldn't eat oysters is just because they are categorised as animals?
Please, I am begging you, have a part of the website dedicated to all the information from your videos or your own knowledge to answer common or not so common questions that try to dispell veganism. It would be much easier to link people to that section and be able for them to read through whatever concerns they may have.
for the most part, edible oysters and the water must be tested to be categorized as safe to eat. you can read some papers of oysters, the over harvesting and now the restoration of Jamacia bay NY using oysters to help improve the clarity and sunlight penetration for more marine life that would in turn help create more oyster bed habitats. they can also be farmed for eating or... farmed in similar fashion for the intent of cleaning up waterways. the set up is similar except one side is for food, the other is for cleaning, in between might be pearls.
I once had paralytic shellfish poisoning (PSP). This was the main drivers of me going completely vegan. I took a lot of work and medial advice to get my left arm not to be a limp sausage. 20 years later, I’m very happy with that choice for a 1000 reasons. Look it up it’s a scary as$ syndrome.
they may have nerve clusters but they lack pain receptors and are more dependant on stimuli much like plants, when a bug falls into a venus fly trap, it closes. when a scallop is touched, it flaps its shells.
I feel like bi valves feel pain. When I went to high school, in science class they had us dissect a clam. They brought in chilled clams that were still alive and much of the class enjoyed stabbing them and slowly torturing these poor creatures to death. The clams recoiled in pain from being stabbed. I couldn't bare to watch or participate and I quietly just stared at the floor. It broke my heart, and its still burned into my memory from over a decade ago.
To be fair, some plants react to being touched so that doesn't mean that bivalves feel pain. However, I will give them the benefit of the doubt and not eat them :)
Great comment, and well done for caring. Biology classes can be horrible places. Regarding the consciousness of bivalves, I'm sure you would find the following, neurology-based video interesting: No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)
I think I originally came across the idea of vegans eating oysters was in an article by Peter Singer. I was surprised to see such a groundbreaking vegan and animal ethicist saying he ate (I think specifically it was) mussels because he has seen no proof they experience pain. But, I think, if "proof" of pain is the bar we aim to meet, and not "likelihood" or even "possibility" of pain, that's a pretty high bar, and one that has been used to say cows are only machines and can be used as food. For me, oysters and mussels possibly feel pain, and so I don't really feel good eating them. Add to that they are an important part of the ocean ecosystem, and I feel worse pulling them out of already suffering ecosystems as a whole. But then again, I am a vegetarian, and not a vegan, because I eat honey.
Love your website idea! Can’t wait to try it out. Thanks for the discussion on oysters. The ONLY animal product I use is an oyster sauce for cooking. I struggle with it and am planning to shift over to a mushroom based sauce, but it’s been hard to kick. This video helps me be more informed on the matter. Frankly, I don’t want to exist in a grey area when it comes to animal suffering and environmental destruction. I’m going to bite the bullet and kick the oyster sauce to the curb
Vegan who does not eat oysters playing devils advocate: Be careful what you funge against. Even if oysters (which by the way cannot move so the evolutionary argument, that the ability to feel pain would be useless and expensive holds) feel some pain, it is still better to eat those than farmed plants because the farming process kills some mammals who definately feel pain. Assuming your caloric intake is fixed, the more wheat, corn, etc you substitute by oysters the less suffering you cause.
Can they really not move? Did you watch that clam's foot feel around and then dig? Would it be so hard to believe that a pain response would be useful for that exposed foot?
Oh I thought oysters do not have a movable "tongue". Thanks for the info. However I would say it does not need pain, but just any signal. Not necessarily some kind of pain. Also oysters do not have the receptor for pain, and they don't react to opiates in the way one would expect. Note that they still use opiates but they probably use it for something in the immune system. Source: books.google.co.uk/books?id=VtiD88jzb-QC&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=mussels+opioid+receptors&source=bl&ots=4iX1knIIWy&sig=KkUD7-3j0w8heQyQnEy9E0N8hLA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ElGWUbjXG6fL0AWk0oD4Cg#v=onepage&q=mussels%20opioid%20receptors&f=false I will now end being the devils advocate. The matter seems to be just-not-settled. There is this study www.researchgate.net/publication/51253778_Nociceptive_Behavior_and_Physiology_of_Molluscs_Animal_Welfare_Implications I will copy some key quotes: "However, to our knowledge there are no published descriptions of behavioral or neurophysiological responses to tissue injury in bivalves" "But reports indicate that some molluscs exhibit motivational states and cognitive capabilities that may be consistent with a capacity for states with functional parallels to pain" So when in doubt: Be nice to oysters :) Continued: "We therefore recommend that investigators attempt to minimize the potential for nociceptor activation and painlike sensations in experimental invertebrates by reducing the number of animals subjected to stressful manipulations and by administering appropriate anesthetic agents whenever practicable, welfare practices similar to those for vertebrate subjects." However the main point of my first comment still stands: Farming kills mammals and eating oysters only kills oysters. I would give more moral weight to mammals. I still don't eat oysters and I can't really tell you why, except that I never liked the taste when I last ate meat 12 years ago.
But, how many oysters you should eat to keep your caloric intake? And you would probably be consuming some minerals in excessive amounts, and in need of some more calcium and vitamins. I guess you could definetly recomend them to non vegans who want to diminish the suffering they cause, and have access to them.
Carrageenan messed me up, and I even attribute getting hemorrhoids to it. ***Warning grossness ahead**** there was blood whenever I wiped. I think it may be the culprit in a lot of people not liking how they feel from drinking soy milk. I took it out of my diet and my intestines have thanked me.. no more weirdness and the hemorrhoids went away. Thank God!
Movement was one reason and mainly there because it is a common argument against bivalve sentience. But this is more than a motor response in a stationary creature, this is advanced motor function. How that clam felt around with its foot and dug is light years ahead of any plant. How a sea star which is has a more basic neural network walks. The truth is it is completely impossible to fully know a creature's experience so you have to come to your own conclusion. But between the cerebral ganglia and the complex motor function I think there is reason to refrain.
I'm not a vegan or a vegetarian, and I haven't looked into your data, but you sound like you're reasonably unbiased about your information here. That said, I haven't watched any of your other videos.
I've had similar concerns about carrageenan and avoid it in my food. However, a lot of vegan supplements have this as part of the capsule. Personally, it makes me feel concerned but even the best vegan supplements have this issue, which feels super-disappointing... What are your thoughts on this?
I'm a barista and use to have lattes with soy milk containing carrageenan quite often and had symptoms similar to allergies. It went away when I stopped drinking it. Probably best to stay away from that food additive
Website sounds great! I've just introduced the mother to veganism and she's struggling to grasp what she can and cannot eat. Bless her, at least she's trying!
I'm not sure if that bivalve flapping away was an oyster or not. Can anyone identify what it is then if it's not an oyster? Also sperm moves around too just as the oyster larva do that he pointed out.
@@Ash12428 I agree. Mussels and oysters can be rope farmed so no dredging needed, and farming them has a net positive impact on the habitats for known sentient beings, we can use them to reverse the damages to the ocean agricultural runoff has caused. I can understand wanting to give bivalves the benefit of the doubt, but because we can use them to clean up our own mess, I actually think the benefit of the doubt should go to the sentient beings we can help by eating bivalves.
What do you think about the following argument: If you have access to local and sustainably produced oysters, this could potentially be a more ethical food source than many plant foods. Indeed, with crops there is always the risk of killing small rodents and insects. So, by eating oysters instead of crops, you reduce your contribution to insect and rodent death in crop production and transportation. This benefit of oyster consumption might outweigh the very unlikely possibility that oysters are sentient and capable of suffering. Of course, this argument would hold only for oysters and possibly mussels. For virtually all other animal products, there is more animal suffering than there is in the production of comparable plant foods.
Hey there, this video was great. I was wondering about bivalves because scallops were a seafood I used to like before going vegan. You've definitely made some good points to consider (I'm sticking to not eating any animal products, no good reason to eat scallops for me at this point). Your website ideas sound great. I am interested in recipes and forum discussions so that will be awesome. Alright, take care ☕
A useful section would be a 'rate my diet' section, where you enter either a real or hypothetical day, and other members can comment with suggestions to improve it and make it healthier.
About the dredging. I thought one of the biggest arguments for eating oysters was that they were easy to harvest without impacting the environment. Probably through farming?
+IQ encodoc there are several books by experts mike recommamds often the books by Dr. Neal Barnard and Dr. Esselstyn the two only people who proved a way to reverse two of the deadliest diseases
The end of the video is amazing! I hadnt heard of that before and I tought they could be considered 'vegan' but changed my opinion. Oysters belong to the ocean not to saliva if that makes sense. That's the final point. jajaja
Forget about bivalves, in a few years I wouldn't touch ANYTHING coming from the sea, seeing how polluted with degraded plastic, radiation waste and trash it is, and it'll keep on getting worse. I'm doubting there will even be sea animals in a decade.
I don't know if you were already planning on doing this but, I definitely think the website should have a social aspect/ community feel that could allow people to reach out without feeling awkward about it.
Great video. Very educational and informative. I got into a big debate with a non-vegan and she talked about carrageenan. Your video helped clear stuff up a little bit, and I learned about oysters! I never ate an oyster on my life. Even if they were vegan, I'd still never want to try one. Thank you!
4:26 Dude, many microorganisms also have locomotion, they move beating their cilia and flagela or they move projecting pseudopodia in amoeboid fashion: many bacteria, protozoans, many algae, some fungi. Even some plant cells present locomotion.
I first went ostro-vegan a year ago, I only ate oysters and mussels (because of their lack of movement, and perhaps, lack of pain...) on occasion- and I paid for it with food poisoning- no kidding! Shortly thereafter went full vegan! That was the karmic kick to the gut I needed! Great video
Nathan Williamson except that mushrooms are fruiting bodies of a much larger organism that lives on underground and oysters are individual organisms that die when they're eaten.
For that reason, there's this new recipe that replaces yeast - baking soda + lemon, acts exactly like yeast for breads, sour creams, vegan cheese, so on
i think you should put an inbuilt calorie counter like the crono meter on your website so it will be like a one stop shop for all vegan needs maybe like a vegn facebook sorta thing as well and like a vegan restaurant finder idk i have a lot of ideas but as always loved the video bro keep up the good work
Yeah, maybe. You might find this neurology-based video about bivalves interesting, though: No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)
Hi Mic. Good job covering the bivalve topic in a balanced way. I have a couple of further comments: On your point about larvae being motile: many plants, protists (like algae) and fungi also have motile sperm (or spores). Many species of bacteria are motile, and can swim toward or away from something, depending on the stimulus. Therefore motility cannot be a moral consideration (in my opinion). Also, you use the example of a clam's ability to burrow, demanding 'complex interaction with the environment'. While I wouldn't disagree with this, there are many equally complex activities across all kingdoms (plant, bacteria, protists, fungi), so again, I think there's a need for these considerations to be viewed in a wider context, i.e. not in an 'animal-centric' sort of way which is common amongst many vegans. At the end of the day, I don't think peoples' ethical dietary choices should be constricted by which bucket a taxonomist has decided to place an organism. Therefore, I consider myself 'bivalvegan' (although I eat them hardly at all, and have never eaten a raw oyster - yuk!).
Nice to see someone who can think around here. You should definitely try raw oysters, if you can get around the initial yuck factor. Throw a little lime juice on em - they're delicious.
James 1984 Citrus fruits like limes and lemons actually do start cooking the meat so they kill the bacteria. Céviche is considered safe for this reason.
When you eat these simple life forms, essentially you're consuming them guts all all. So you're eating everything they've eaten. Why would you ever want to do that?
Wat about bugs and insects, like crickets? locust and the like will often continue eating and I just don't believe they have the capacity for an emotional response, and no real preference as to whether or not they experience the sort of damage we call pain. They are environmentally sustainable, and could provide B12 and omegas.
as a vegan whos family owns a clam farm i relate to this, there needs to be more info provided about farming practices in the clam and oyster farms, there are major environmental and by catch issues.....
Mussels offer several health benefits. They are high in B12 vitamins and provide a readily absorbed source of many other B & C vitamins, amino acids, vital minerals including iron, manganese, phosphorus, potassium, selenium and zinc.
I've been really on the fence about bivalves for quite a while and decided to do more research. This video really made up my mind not to eat them. Thank you!
Cool! I think what it comes down to is you don't need to eat them so even if there is a small chance that they experience a considerable amount of pain it's just not worth it.
I could raise the same argument for a carrot it needs light to grow so it will grow to the nearest light source stimuli same as a clam it also sends messages to its roots when threatened/damaged stimuli same reason a clam shuts also by the way vegans can eat jellyfish tho as it’s 95% water 5% body with no brain or nervous system it’s not even sentient so it would not even know or feel it’s being eaten it’s actually less alive then a carrot. Jellyfish soup in China
Cool. The fact that anyone could regard bivalves (which invertebrate researchers regularly refer to as having brains, because that's how the neurons in the cerebral ganglion function) as being "just plants" is incredible. If you're still curious about the bivalve topic, you might find this neurology-based video interesting: No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)
Then who will be the voice of the oyster? Who says it wants to be in a farm? Working! for you cleaning your nasty water!? FIY not vegan just making a point
another great video as always Mic! Please include *Ahiflower Oil* in your DHA/EPA video!!! I need all the information i can get about it, as well as your opinions whether it can become the ultimate substitute of flaxseeds and other sources of omegas cheers!
John Constantin its not just about getting the omega 3-6-9, you also need them to be converted into DHA and EPA, and from what i've read so far, ahiflower oil is doing that much much better than any other seed due to its high SDA concentration. Just wanted Mic.'s opinion on this, hope he sees it.
Harry Papatheocharous well i know but the thing is the convertion rate is 5-15% from plant based omega 3 to EPA/DHA And the highest amount of DHA you could ever need is 200mg for pregnant women 100g of flax seeds has 40.000mg of omega 3 ...so you get 10 times more than you need Yeah its fine that you are interested i am just saying there is really no need
I agree with everything but the vegan title as a reason not to eat animals.Should we realy make veganism a title and should we realy lower the question of not harming others to loosing titles?!
"A word is not a crystal, transparent and unchanged; it is the skin of a living thought and may vary greatly in color and content according to the circumstances and time in which it is used." -- Oliver Wendall Holmes, Jr.
Great video! I love that you fairly present both sides of the discussion. I have been vegan for 6 years and I have noticed that our community can be incredibly narrow minded for such 'awoken' people. I think that it's best to always listen to the other person's argument. The worst thing that can happen is that they will actually have a good point, in which case I can go away, do my own research and find my own response. It just bolsters my confidence in the lifestyle that I have chosen. And if someone else raises that point again, I have a decent response! Better than putting your head in the sand. It helps so much to listen before we lash out. I'm not eating oysters either though hahaha
What would come in handy is to keep a list of bad things in food to watch out for, or tricks to not fall for. It could be really helpful for new Vegans
My first and last experience with oysters, long time ago - the oysters were so fresh, they actually were still alive. And when someone dripped lemon juice on the oyster, it actually shrunk, it reacted to the acid and it certainly did not like it. My own impression was that the oyster was in pain. I never even looked at an oyster ever since.
If you salt frog legs, they "dance." That doesn't mean that they're alive or felt it. It means there was a chemical reaction that made them move Plants also respond to stimuli and can have that sense numbed by morphine. Taking that experience as law without research is just silly
@@msjkramey Neither dismembered animal limbs nor the leaves of plants are connected to a cerebral ganglion (or, as the Evolutionary Science journal calls it, a bivalve's "cerebral ganglion (brain)"). Anyone who's interested in the neurology of bivalves should check out the following video and the twenty or so scientific sources which it provides: No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)
I also like the idea for disputing common uneducated fears about going vegan. That is probably a major factor in the problem for people as in my case.... I was afraid I would die of malnutrition but seeing people like you on TH-cam obviously alive and flourishing convinced me not to fear.
Wow I was wondering about oysters and mussels recently as well! These animals are kept alive until they are cooked and eaten. So I concluded that if I would ever decide to include them into my diet again, I would not steam them but eat them raw instead. Because, in case they do feel pain, that would mean a much quicker death. Imagine being steamed. Oh no.
Eating something alive vs. boiling... I think boiling would probably kill them faster as it would destroy the nerves. Eating them wouldn't right away. Something to consider. BTW, it's an urban legend that lobsters scream when they are cooked. It's actually gasses expanding inside their exoskeleton, producing a hissing sound.
@@Magnulus76 yes lobsters cannot physically scream, but they do feel pain. Their hard exoskeleton would initially protect them from the heat so you can imagine being put in a metal tank that is being put in boiling water, which probably is one of the worst ways to die.
What you are considering bivalves exhibiting basic levels of awareness can easily be applied to plants too. Many plants exhibit even higher levels of environmental awareness. While I'm completely against dredging and farmed fish, farming shellfish has proven to improve the health of waterways while being a more sustainable, safe food source. So in short, I still consider the scallops I eat as vegan.
Regarding that topic (bivalve sentience) you might find this neurology-based video interesting: No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)
@user-wv8ju3dw8s While I'm not in the habit of responding to an account named John Doe with zero history besides 30+ comments on this one video. I'm just going to say NO. Go troll elsewhere. My initial comment stands very true on both the environmental and health benefits of shellfish. Hence the countless shellfish farming programs around the world. The benefits are well documented and needed. Additionally, even vegans eat shellfish and bivalve veganism has only increased in popularity. Again, the neurology and consciousness arguments made for shellfish stand just as true for many plants. It's a poor argument. Go troll elsewhere.
The new web site sounds great . One day when you get the time Mic , I would like to read about not putting different veggies that do the same thing in the same meal .
4:48 - The "tongue-like foot" is called a pseudopod. 6:50 - There's also the issue of invasive species. If an animal is introduced into an ecosystem where they have no natural predators, they wreak havoc on that ecosystem. In the great lakes, there are asian carp and zebra mussels that are invasive, and causing a lot of problems.
Here's the thing... we've created the idea of etymology. I don't understand how their being a part of the animal kingdom taking precedence over the idea of sentience and suffering. Plants have a basic level of awareness. I go by sentience and suffering.
I forgot to ask your take on Coconut oil since you're not into oil very much. Maybe you've already commented on this so I'll try to watch all your videos and find out as I'm definitely on a Mic the Vegan binge! Love you!!!
Your forum is a good idea. From a business perspective you need to find other forums that are similar to what you make but you need to make it better. More importantly once the forum is finished you need to market it very well. This forum will only work out if it is BIG. You want to make it a common place for all vegans to go to. Get on the Fastlane forum. A lot of guys on there have made successful forums and they'd be glad to help you and it's free.
It was a Scallop. If in danger Scallops can swim away. There are shellfish that bury themselves deeper in the sand if under threat. Shellfish are no shape or form Vegan. Shellfish are animals.
A lot of shellfish have crabs that live in them, like pea crabs. so when you cook them you are also boiling the crab alive. If you eat crab meat, then that is 1 crab gets boiled alive, but if you eat mussels then it's loads of crabs that are boiled alive.
I didn't know oysters cleaned the water like that. Nature is amazing, why can't we just leave the animals alone?
Agreed! It's beautiful - and it's their ocean!
So, can they not clean if we just leave them be?
They're too tasty :(
But kidding aside, it is a problem of coexistence when human population keeps growing as well as our unsustainable consumption... oh well, we'll see what happens.
nope. Well, yes, but not for many generations until we have better technology.
plants clean the air, why can't we just leave the plants alone?
Regardless of whether bivalves feel pain or not, farming them is more environmentally friendly than farming crops. Farming crops does have some negative environmental effects. You would kill less animals eating bivalves than eating tofu, beans, or lentils. If you really do care about animals, eating bivalves farmed responsibly is the way to go.
Nah.
Why does everyone want to mess with everything? I swear every time a human comes across ANYTHING they think: Can I eat it? Can I fuck it? Can I sell it? leave the oysters alone
That makes no sense
vickie g that's what people do with everything lols. if it's not useful for anything we do leave it alone. or destroy it because it's useless, depending on the person and the day. humans are such fickle creatures
+Vince Vince if that doesn't make sense you need to go and get your reading comprehension level checked, honestly not even insulting you but if that didn't make sense you seriously need to learn how to read better if you want to do well in life! if English is your first language anyway.
vickie g Too funny, and unfortunately, so true.
Before I went vegan I used to be upset that I was allergic to clams and oysters because i couldn't eat with my family.
Now that I am vegan I'm glad I have a shellfish allergy cause I don't have to have an inner debate about whether vegans can eat oysters and clams 😂😂
Lucky
A relative of mine nearly died from food poisoning after eating bivalves (despite no allergies). Plus eating bivalves involves eating the whole body, including the anus and all of the anal content.
Regarding bivalve sentience, this neurology-based video covers a lot of interesting ground: No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)
I don't personally feel like I want to eat oysters/ other bivalves but given the debate over whether or not they feel pain I wouldn't shame a vegan for eating them.
Agreed. Any argument for bivalve pain/sentience could be just as easily applied to modern computers. Obviously we don't eat computers, but we create and destroy them without any consideration of pain or consciousness. It sounds absurd, I know. But my point is that there's just as much evidence (or lack of, rather) for bivalve sentience as there is for computer sentience.
Vegan goal is suicide, so you have no impact on the world. As long as you're alive you'll be judged by vegans.
As someone who's been on a plant based diet for 8 months now, I was thinking of adding mussels and oysters as another option. They're rich in zinc and omega 3s so maybe it's not the worst thing to turn to given that they don't appear to experience pain? Plus they're an available source of omega 3s, so nothing needs to be converted.
Anyone who thinks oysters are sentient, is literally retarded...
Most invertebrates arent sentient...Crabs, shrimp, lobster, crawfish probably arent...Oysters definitely arent...Most vertebrates are atleast sentient to some level, like fish
I'm not saying you're completely wrong, but to label these animals' experience as "awareness" and "pain" isn't accurate in my opinion. Platyhelminthes have a cerebral ganglion, yet they reproduce by willingly attaching to a surface and pulling themselves in two. The best available science says that the only invertebrates that feel pain (as opposed to stimulus aka nociception) are decapods (crabs, lobsters) and cephalopods (squids). While obviously humans don't need to consume bivalves, some may choose to because some authorities say that animal flesh is necessary. It also has an interesting possible application for feeding cats as to not value the lives of tens of sentient cows/chickens over a pet's life. In my opinion overall, sustainable farming of bivalves would not be unethical but certainly unnecessary for human consumption.
That's exactly what I was thinking for my cats, then again filter feeders accumulate toxins so maybe not.
Brandon Brandon well, her point was that if the nutritional requierments of the cat can be accomplished in more ethicals way, it would be a moral obligation
Brandon Brandon is not about being "normal", veganism itself is not normal nor natural, is about ethics, and keep in mind that i clarify "if it is possible to give them a nutritionally complete diet, that way", whether it is normal or natural it is is irrelevenat if it is nutrionally complete and causes less suffereing, is ethical
Brandon Brandon no, animals can't conceptualize morality, but we can, that is why we would teach dogs not to bite other humans, or is that "imposing morality" also
Brandon Brandon i think we disagree on this but whatever
These videos are so incredible, you put such great work into them and I love the commentary you add! I could totally see you as the perfect host for a vegan-focused show on the Discovery or Science Channel!
The presence of functioning nerves is not enough to deem a creature sentient or even aware. The leap from ganglia to consciousness is so incredibly outlandish and incoherent. This is the most ridiculous claim I've seen on this channel to date. There are plenty of ganglia throughout my body that respond to stimuli. But, we wouldn't call my spinal column "sentient". This is because motility and nerve impulses in reaction to stimuli need not be conscious. Hell, motility need not have anything to do with nerves. Fucking plants have motility. It can be completely blind, meaning consciousness need not come along for the ride whenever nerves are present. If you sever a person's head, and prick their finger with a needle, it moves. There's no consciousness involved. If you cut the head off of a fish and start to fillet it, it will still recoil even hours after death. This has nothing to do with consciousness. Can this guy be any more of an ideologue?
Most of the videos you used as an example were clams. The article discussed mussels and oysters, not clams and scallops.
aren't they from the same family?
@@VeganofSuburbia If all humans descended from africa then aren't all humans from the same family? So why were homosapiens weaker than
Neanderthals.
Point is just because they are from the same family does not mean they are the same.
Neandertals arent homosapiens the y are a differnt speices
Neanderthal arent humans
@@abrasiveplays_5621 I mean, they're humans, but not homo sapiens.
Mic, I'm really grateful you're creating the content that you are, and that you're putting the hours of research and clear logic into your work. You're by far my favourite vegan youtuber right now - thanks for your contribution :)
the website idea got me so excited haha! the ideas you said are awesome. I also thought there should be a section for reliable studies and researches, it would be so useful! I have no idea how to search for studies, but I guess you know what you are doing! There should be a collection of it, categorized by topics. keep on the good work Mike! :)
Yes I will absolutely put the study section! Thanks!
LOVE this idea!!
I am *so* happy I found this channel! The information and conviction you have is wonderful - thanks for all you do!
i just binge watched so many of your videos! well done!! so much great information and your delivery is fantastic.
Just wrote a massive comment then the page froze, so I'll try to sum up quickly. Too many vegans don't think about degree when they think about harm. They judge with disdain, anger, and mockery when some vegans even try to talk about oysters and ethics, but those same people adopt cats even after going vegan. I don't eat oysters, and I do have a cat, but having a cat is equally selfish to eating oysters, but does far, far, FAR more harm. When I see vegans adopting multiple cats and dogs, eating whatever plant food they can find without any concern for the source, observing absolutely no ethical sense beyond 'Do not touch anything in the kingdom animalia", but then proceed to aggressively attack and try to marginalize and demonize people that try to understand veganism from a broader and more complicated point of view, I find it really hard to respect those people.
I'm not saying that's what Mic is doing/saying, I haven't seen his thoughts on companion animals, or did but forgot, but his whole "give up your vegan label" comment definitely shows the attitude "hardcoreism", which aggressively pushes the idea of there being only one way to be vegan, which is coincidentally the simplest, most thoughtless, and the one you happen to like. You might choose not to call them vegans, but I used to eat oysters and mussels for about 6 months when I first went vegan and I happily called myself vegan, hung out with vegans, discussed the issue with the more understanding and patient vegans, and I still consider all of that justified. I now don't eat bi-valves for 3 reasons, because farming/hunting practices are hideous with mainstream sources, because I could still be wrong on the nervous system thing, and the biggest reason, I don't want to be alienated by or from a community with whom I am more or less on the same side over something that small.
The last one is tied to a fourth reason which is I don't want other vegans to feel alienated because they've come to a different conclusion about oysters and mussels. No matter what you think, I think you have to acknowledge that bi valves are at the very least less able to experience pain than, say, the mammals, fish, and birds, that the 'hardcore' feed to their rescue cats. All I want from vegans is a little humility, a little consistency, a little more respect for reality. I don't get mad at 'asshole' vegans, every ideological movement has the assholes, they are inevitable and they are a vital part of the community; in the right balance, they motivate and activate fence sitters more than they alienate them. But if you're going to be an asshole vegan, and you get a cat, you can go fuck yourself because you are nothing but a mean, entitled, self important hypocrite.
dang if this is the summation?÷
thank you also for this well written analysis. i totes agree with you on the subject and pointd brought up. people should realize that there isnt one form of veganism. i have same opinions on crickets as you did with bivalves. crickets dont have pain receptors and have been shown to still be eating a leaf even if they are getting eaten by another animal.
LukeOfTroy your comment is 100% needed
You're justification is based on a problem that we caused. It's kind of a paradox at this point.
"which aggressively pushes the idea of there being only one way to be vegan, which is coincidentally the simplest, most thoughtless, and the one you happen to like."
Vegan has a definition. It means you don't eat animals. If you eat bivalves you are, by definition, not vegan. This isn't about "happening to like" one standard of being vegan, it's about there already being a well defined standard, which people use, and deciding to use the term differently is just going to confuse people and make communication difficult.
You guys are all idiots, stop trying to force a change to the English language.
Not agreeing that eating them is ok, buuuuuuuuuut muscles and oysters aren't dredged 😐 they are farmed on wooden poles that are stuck into the ocean floor. They then lift out the pole, strip the muscles off and replace the pole.
Bookbeans he was talking about the clamies
This is true!
Eating them is okay, though.
When I was a child I saw an oyster reach out from its shell to 'lick' some salt that was on the plate it was lying on.
I dont think it is a proof oysters feeling anything because they are moving since plants move, too and its just a reaction to their enviroment/ enviromental changes. :/ The only difference I see is that when you eat a plant you dont kill the whole tree, you just use a part of it.
So the reason we shouldn't eat oysters is just because they are categorised as animals?
Those points are discussed in the following neurology-based video: No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)
Great video as always. Looking forward to seeing how the website turns out. :)
Please, I am begging you, have a part of the website dedicated to all the information from your videos or your own knowledge to answer common or not so common questions that try to dispell veganism. It would be much easier to link people to that section and be able for them to read through whatever concerns they may have.
You answer all my questions the way I need them to be answered AND you answers questions I didn't even know I had yet! You're so the man!!!
thank you for addressing carageenan. I was having trouble finding recent research :) great vid
Thanks Mic for the info! I learn so much watching all your videos.
Free website? Will Mic. the Vegan become the new Dr. Greger?
No, I think his point is to do something analogous to what the folks at Soylent have done, but from a vegan perspective.
for the most part, edible oysters and the water must be tested to be categorized as safe to eat. you can read some papers of oysters, the over harvesting and now the restoration of Jamacia bay NY using oysters to help improve the clarity and sunlight penetration for more marine life that would in turn help create more oyster bed habitats.
they can also be farmed for eating or... farmed in similar fashion for the intent of cleaning up waterways. the set up is similar except one side is for food, the other is for cleaning, in between might be pearls.
I once had paralytic shellfish poisoning (PSP). This was the main drivers of me going completely vegan. I took a lot of work and medial advice to get my left arm not to be a limp sausage. 20 years later, I’m very happy with that choice for a 1000 reasons. Look it up it’s a scary as$ syndrome.
Great video once again. You deserve SO many more subs and views! Keep up the good work!
they may have nerve clusters but they lack pain receptors and are more dependant on stimuli much like plants, when a bug falls into a venus fly trap, it closes. when a scallop is touched, it flaps its shells.
Great content!
I love the idea of the website!!! I don't have any ideas though....but I sure am looking forward to it.
I feel like bi valves feel pain. When I went to high school, in science class they had us dissect a clam. They brought in chilled clams that were still alive and much of the class enjoyed stabbing them and slowly torturing these poor creatures to death. The clams recoiled in pain from being stabbed. I couldn't bare to watch or participate and I quietly just stared at the floor. It broke my heart, and its still burned into my memory from over a decade ago.
To be fair, some plants react to being touched so that doesn't mean that bivalves feel pain. However, I will give them the benefit of the doubt and not eat them :)
Plants would suffer too. Bivalves suffer no more than plants
Great comment, and well done for caring. Biology classes can be horrible places. Regarding the consciousness of bivalves, I'm sure you would find the following, neurology-based video interesting: No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)
I think I originally came across the idea of vegans eating oysters was in an article by Peter Singer. I was surprised to see such a groundbreaking vegan and animal ethicist saying he ate (I think specifically it was) mussels because he has seen no proof they experience pain. But, I think, if "proof" of pain is the bar we aim to meet, and not "likelihood" or even "possibility" of pain, that's a pretty high bar, and one that has been used to say cows are only machines and can be used as food. For me, oysters and mussels possibly feel pain, and so I don't really feel good eating them. Add to that they are an important part of the ocean ecosystem, and I feel worse pulling them out of already suffering ecosystems as a whole. But then again, I am a vegetarian, and not a vegan, because I eat honey.
Great comment. You might find this neurology-based video interesting: No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)
Love your website idea! Can’t wait to try it out. Thanks for the discussion on oysters. The ONLY animal product I use is an oyster sauce for cooking. I struggle with it and am planning to shift over to a mushroom based sauce, but it’s been hard to kick. This video helps me be more informed on the matter. Frankly, I don’t want to exist in a grey area when it comes to animal suffering and environmental destruction. I’m going to bite the bullet and kick the oyster sauce to the curb
Vegan who does not eat oysters playing devils advocate: Be careful what you funge against. Even if oysters (which by the way cannot move so the evolutionary argument, that the ability to feel pain would be useless and expensive holds) feel some pain, it is still better to eat those than farmed plants because the farming process kills some mammals who definately feel pain.
Assuming your caloric intake is fixed, the more wheat, corn, etc you substitute by oysters the less suffering you cause.
Can they really not move? Did you watch that clam's foot feel around and then dig? Would it be so hard to believe that a pain response would be useful for that exposed foot?
Oh I thought oysters do not have a movable "tongue". Thanks for the info. However I would say it does not need pain, but just any signal. Not necessarily some kind of pain.
Also oysters do not have the receptor for pain, and they don't react to opiates in the way one would expect. Note that they still use opiates but they probably use it for something in the immune system. Source: books.google.co.uk/books?id=VtiD88jzb-QC&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=mussels+opioid+receptors&source=bl&ots=4iX1knIIWy&sig=KkUD7-3j0w8heQyQnEy9E0N8hLA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ElGWUbjXG6fL0AWk0oD4Cg#v=onepage&q=mussels%20opioid%20receptors&f=false
I will now end being the devils advocate. The matter seems to be just-not-settled. There is this study
www.researchgate.net/publication/51253778_Nociceptive_Behavior_and_Physiology_of_Molluscs_Animal_Welfare_Implications
I will copy some key quotes:
"However, to our knowledge there are no published descriptions of behavioral or neurophysiological responses to tissue injury in bivalves"
"But reports indicate that some molluscs exhibit motivational states and
cognitive capabilities that may be consistent with a capacity for states
with functional parallels to pain"
So when in doubt: Be nice to oysters :)
Continued: "We therefore recommend that investigators attempt to minimize the
potential for nociceptor activation and painlike sensations in
experimental invertebrates by reducing the number of animals subjected
to stressful manipulations and by administering appropriate anesthetic
agents whenever practicable, welfare practices similar to those for
vertebrate subjects."
However the main point of my first comment still stands: Farming kills mammals and eating oysters only kills oysters. I would give more moral weight to mammals. I still don't eat oysters and I can't really tell you why, except that I never liked the taste when I last ate meat 12 years ago.
But, how many oysters you should eat to keep your caloric intake? And you would probably be consuming some minerals in excessive amounts, and in need of some more calcium and vitamins. I guess you could definetly recomend them to non vegans who want to diminish the suffering they cause, and have access to them.
Luckily veganism doesn't depend on knowing if an animal can or cannot feel pain. If it's an animal, we don't eat it.
we could learn alot from bivalves if we didn't eat them. Usually the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
Carrageenan messed me up, and I even attribute getting hemorrhoids to it. ***Warning grossness ahead**** there was blood whenever I wiped. I think it may be the culprit in a lot of people not liking how they feel from drinking soy milk. I took it out of my diet and my intestines have thanked me.. no more weirdness and the hemorrhoids went away. Thank God!
I wouldn't suggest a motoric response would indicate an organisms sentience, plants have that too.
Movement was one reason and mainly there because it is a common argument against bivalve sentience. But this is more than a motor response in a stationary creature, this is advanced motor function. How that clam felt around with its foot and dug is light years ahead of any plant. How a sea star which is has a more basic neural network walks. The truth is it is completely impossible to fully know a creature's experience so you have to come to your own conclusion. But between the cerebral ganglia and the complex motor function I think there is reason to refrain.
I'm not a vegan or a vegetarian, and I haven't looked into your data, but you sound like you're reasonably unbiased about your information here. That said, I haven't watched any of your other videos.
I've had similar concerns about carrageenan and avoid it in my food. However, a lot of vegan supplements have this as part of the capsule. Personally, it makes me feel concerned but even the best vegan supplements have this issue, which feels super-disappointing... What are your thoughts on this?
A good rule of thumb to tell if it vegan is to ask if it has cholesterol or comes from something with cholesterol.
I'm a barista and use to have lattes with soy milk containing carrageenan quite often and had symptoms similar to allergies. It went away when I stopped drinking it. Probably best to stay away from that food additive
You need more subscribers. Your content is top notch.
Website sounds great! I've just introduced the mother to veganism and she's struggling to grasp what she can and cannot eat. Bless her, at least she's trying!
I'm not sure if that bivalve flapping away was an oyster or not. Can anyone identify what it is then if it's not an oyster?
Also sperm moves around too just as the oyster larva do that he pointed out.
I know I'm 2 years late on this...but the one flapping away was a scallop. They're harvested by dredging so it's good to avoid them.
TheArtOfRevolution there is scallop farming tho. The only issue I see with eating bivalves is dredging.
@@Ash12428 I agree. Mussels and oysters can be rope farmed so no dredging needed, and farming them has a net positive impact on the habitats for known sentient beings, we can use them to reverse the damages to the ocean agricultural runoff has caused. I can understand wanting to give bivalves the benefit of the doubt, but because we can use them to clean up our own mess, I actually think the benefit of the doubt should go to the sentient beings we can help by eating bivalves.
What do you think about the following argument: If you have access to local and sustainably produced oysters, this could potentially be a more ethical food source than many plant foods. Indeed, with crops there is always the risk of killing small rodents and insects. So, by eating oysters instead of crops, you reduce your contribution to insect and rodent death in crop production and transportation. This benefit of oyster consumption might outweigh the very unlikely possibility that oysters are sentient and capable of suffering.
Of course, this argument would hold only for oysters and possibly mussels. For virtually all other animal products, there is more animal suffering than there is in the production of comparable plant foods.
That's exactly what would push me to reintroduce oysters and mussels in my diet
thank you for all your helpfful informative videos you are very thorough and just say it how it is.
just found your channel and so happy i did! Thank youuuu
Would like to see you touch on DHA, Iodine, choline and taurine
The site sounds fantastic. I am a new Vegan (and loving it) and a "Tips for Vegans" section would be helpful.
Hey there, this video was great. I was wondering about bivalves because scallops were a seafood I used to like before going vegan. You've definitely made some good points to consider (I'm sticking to not eating any animal products, no good reason to eat scallops for me at this point). Your website ideas sound great. I am interested in recipes and forum discussions so that will be awesome. Alright, take care ☕
A useful section would be a 'rate my diet' section, where you enter either a real or hypothetical day, and other members can comment with suggestions to improve it and make it healthier.
About the dredging. I thought one of the biggest arguments for eating oysters was that they were easy to harvest without impacting the environment. Probably through farming?
Hey, have you read "How Not to Die" by Michael Greger M.D. yet??? GREAT BOOK!
Who? Mic often quotes Michael...
I recommend it daily.
If you don't mind the topic change, I would be curious if you knew anything about the Omega 7 oils that have been popping up recently...
IQ encodoc I would probably start with TED talks and then pick books based on what you want to dive deeper into.
+IQ encodoc there are several books by experts mike recommamds often
the books by Dr. Neal Barnard and Dr. Esselstyn
the two only people who proved a way to reverse two of the deadliest diseases
Great video! Watched all your videos so far. Keep up the good work!
I think that you should have a space at your website for all the articles you link in your videos. Thanks for all the work, Mic! =]
the idea of the website sounds so useful and practical the whole ailment aspect sounds great, I've been wishing for some platform like this. 👍🙃
Some bivalves have rudimentary eyes, too. If they do not have any awareness of their own environment, why do they need to see?
The end of the video is amazing! I hadnt heard of that before and I tought they could be considered 'vegan' but changed my opinion. Oysters belong to the ocean not to saliva if that makes sense. That's the final point. jajaja
Voy bye plants belong in the ground not for your saliva either
Forget about bivalves, in a few years I wouldn't touch ANYTHING coming from the sea, seeing how polluted with degraded plastic, radiation waste and trash it is, and it'll keep on getting worse. I'm doubting there will even be sea animals in a decade.
I don't know if you were already planning on doing this but, I definitely think the website should have a social aspect/ community feel that could allow people to reach out without feeling awkward about it.
Great video. Very educational and informative. I got into a big debate with a non-vegan and she talked about carrageenan. Your video helped clear stuff up a little bit, and I learned about oysters! I never ate an oyster on my life. Even if they were vegan, I'd still never want to try one. Thank you!
4:26 Dude, many microorganisms also have locomotion, they move beating their cilia and flagela or they move projecting pseudopodia in amoeboid fashion: many bacteria, protozoans, many algae, some fungi. Even some plant cells present locomotion.
Oysters are gross, I would never eat them anyway, lol
Eating oysters is like eating a cold.
But they're so good!
Great for zinc deficiency. Most people are deficient, oysters are a great source. More for me!
Btw oysters need a source of fresh water mixed with salt water so they're only really good to grow near the end of a river connecting with the sea.
What are your tips for eating whole food vegan as a child in a non vegan family?
I first went ostro-vegan a year ago, I only ate oysters and mussels (because of their lack of movement, and perhaps, lack of pain...) on occasion- and I paid for it with food poisoning- no kidding! Shortly thereafter went full vegan! That was the karmic kick to the gut I needed! Great video
From an ethical perspective, there is no difference between eating an oyster and a mushroom
No pain and suffering in either case.
Nathan Williamson except that mushrooms are fruiting bodies of a much larger organism that lives on underground and oysters are individual organisms that die when they're eaten.
For that reason, there's this new recipe that replaces yeast - baking soda + lemon, acts exactly like yeast for breads, sour creams, vegan cheese, so on
Great, very informative video. Thank you for sharing!
i think you should put an inbuilt calorie counter like the crono meter on your website so it will be like a one stop shop for all vegan needs maybe like a vegn facebook sorta thing as well and like a vegan restaurant finder idk i have a lot of ideas but as always loved the video bro keep up the good work
Bacteria can move too. I'm not sure motility is an argument for sentience
Yeah, maybe. You might find this neurology-based video about bivalves interesting, though: No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)
Hi Mic. Good job covering the bivalve topic in a balanced way. I have a couple of further comments:
On your point about larvae being motile: many plants, protists (like algae) and fungi also have motile sperm (or spores). Many species of bacteria are motile, and can swim toward or away from something, depending on the stimulus. Therefore motility cannot be a moral consideration (in my opinion).
Also, you use the example of a clam's ability to burrow, demanding 'complex interaction with the environment'. While I wouldn't disagree with this, there are many equally complex activities across all kingdoms (plant, bacteria, protists, fungi), so again, I think there's a need for these considerations to be viewed in a wider context, i.e. not in an 'animal-centric' sort of way which is common amongst many vegans.
At the end of the day, I don't think peoples' ethical dietary choices should be constricted by which bucket a taxonomist has decided to place an organism. Therefore, I consider myself 'bivalvegan' (although I eat them hardly at all, and have never eaten a raw oyster - yuk!).
Nice to see someone who can think around here. You should definitely try raw oysters, if you can get around the initial yuck factor. Throw a little lime juice on em - they're delicious.
Thanks, that does sound good but the bacteria puts me off!
James 1984 Citrus fruits like limes and lemons actually do start cooking the meat so they kill the bacteria. Céviche is considered safe for this reason.
When you eat these simple life forms, essentially you're consuming them guts all all. So you're eating everything they've eaten. Why would you ever want to do that?
Wat about bugs and insects, like crickets? locust and the like will often continue eating and I just don't believe they have the capacity for an emotional response, and no real preference as to whether or not they experience the sort of damage we call pain. They are environmentally sustainable, and could provide B12 and omegas.
I had no idea that this was a point of controversy! Whatever the answer is I am not heading out to buy oysters.
as a vegan whos family owns a clam farm i relate to this, there needs to be more info provided about farming practices in the clam and oyster farms, there are major environmental and by catch issues.....
Its really not that difficult to be vegan I don't get why people would wanna eat oysters even if they were 100% proven to feel no pain
And I've never ate them anyway, they look disgusting, maybe they taste good, but I dont wanna know.
the more research comes up the less justifiable options there are
Mussels offer several health benefits. They are high in B12 vitamins and provide a readily absorbed source of many other B & C vitamins, amino acids, vital minerals including iron, manganese, phosphorus, potassium, selenium and zinc.
I like the taste of them and if they didn't feel pain or hurt other animals I'd eat them
I've been really on the fence about bivalves for quite a while and decided to do more research. This video really made up my mind not to eat them. Thank you!
Cool! I think what it comes down to is you don't need to eat them so even if there is a small chance that they experience a considerable amount of pain it's just not worth it.
I could raise the same argument for a carrot it needs light to grow so it will grow to the nearest light source stimuli same as a clam it also sends messages to its roots when threatened/damaged stimuli same reason a clam shuts also by the way vegans can eat jellyfish tho as it’s 95% water 5% body with no brain or nervous system it’s not even sentient so it would not even know or feel it’s being eaten it’s actually less alive then a carrot. Jellyfish soup in China
Gross
Cool. The fact that anyone could regard bivalves (which invertebrate researchers regularly refer to as having brains, because that's how the neurons in the cerebral ganglion function) as being "just plants" is incredible. If you're still curious about the bivalve topic, you might find this neurology-based video interesting: No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)
Very informative!!
Love the idea of the website
Can't we just encourage growth of oyster communities without harvesting them?
Yes, but who would fund it?
Why?
Then who will be the voice of the oyster? Who says it wants to be in a farm? Working! for you cleaning your nasty water!?
FIY not vegan just making a point
I bet you would still buy and sell pearls.
another great video as always Mic! Please include *Ahiflower Oil* in your DHA/EPA video!!! I need all the information i can get about it, as well as your opinions whether it can become the ultimate substitute of flaxseeds and other sources of omegas
cheers!
well ...why would you want a flax substitute?
i mean also you can get all your omega 3 from greens
John Constantin its not just about getting the omega 3-6-9, you also need them to be converted into DHA and EPA, and from what i've read so far, ahiflower oil is doing that much much better than any other seed due to its high SDA concentration. Just wanted Mic.'s opinion on this, hope he sees it.
Harry Papatheocharous well i know but the thing is the convertion rate is 5-15% from plant based omega 3 to EPA/DHA
And the highest amount of DHA you could ever need is 200mg for pregnant women
100g of flax seeds has 40.000mg of omega 3 ...so you get 10 times more than you need
Yeah its fine that you are interested i am just saying there is really no need
John Constantin
good info thanks!
+John Constantin the conversion rate does not become higher with just increasing the amount of flax seeds you consume.
I agree with everything but the vegan title as a reason not to eat animals.Should we realy make veganism a title and should we realy lower the question of not harming others to loosing titles?!
its not the title but the reason and definition behind it like he explained
"A word is not a crystal, transparent and unchanged; it is the skin of a living thought and may vary greatly in color and content according to the circumstances and time in which it is used."
-- Oliver Wendall Holmes, Jr.
Great video! I love that you fairly present both sides of the discussion. I have been vegan for 6 years and I have noticed that our community can be incredibly narrow minded for such 'awoken' people. I think that it's best to always listen to the other person's argument. The worst thing that can happen is that they will actually have a good point, in which case I can go away, do my own research and find my own response. It just bolsters my confidence in the lifestyle that I have chosen. And if someone else raises that point again, I have a decent response! Better than putting your head in the sand. It helps so much to listen before we lash out.
I'm not eating oysters either though hahaha
What would come in handy is to keep a list of bad things in food to watch out for, or tricks to not fall for. It could be really helpful for new Vegans
My first and last experience with oysters, long time ago - the oysters were so fresh, they actually were still alive. And when someone dripped lemon juice on the oyster, it actually shrunk, it reacted to the acid and it certainly did not like it. My own impression was that the oyster was in pain. I never even looked at an oyster ever since.
Iranda Why are you eating raw seafood anyways
If you salt frog legs, they "dance." That doesn't mean that they're alive or felt it. It means there was a chemical reaction that made them move
Plants also respond to stimuli and can have that sense numbed by morphine. Taking that experience as law without research is just silly
@@msjkramey Neither dismembered animal limbs nor the leaves of plants are connected to a cerebral ganglion (or, as the Evolutionary Science journal calls it, a bivalve's "cerebral ganglion (brain)"). Anyone who's interested in the neurology of bivalves should check out the following video and the twenty or so scientific sources which it provides: No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)
I also like the idea for disputing common uneducated fears about going vegan. That is probably a major factor in the problem for people as in my case.... I was afraid I would die of malnutrition but seeing people like you on TH-cam obviously alive and flourishing convinced me not to fear.
Wow I was wondering about oysters and mussels recently as well! These animals are kept alive until they are cooked and eaten. So I concluded that if I would ever decide to include them into my diet again, I would not steam them but eat them raw instead. Because, in case they do feel pain, that would mean a much quicker death. Imagine being steamed. Oh no.
Eating something alive vs. boiling... I think boiling would probably kill them faster as it would destroy the nerves. Eating them wouldn't right away. Something to consider.
BTW, it's an urban legend that lobsters scream when they are cooked. It's actually gasses expanding inside their exoskeleton, producing a hissing sound.
@@Magnulus76 yes lobsters cannot physically scream, but they do feel pain. Their hard exoskeleton would initially protect them from the heat so you can imagine being put in a metal tank that is being put in boiling water, which probably is one of the worst ways to die.
What you are considering bivalves exhibiting basic levels of awareness can easily be applied to plants too. Many plants exhibit even higher levels of environmental awareness. While I'm completely against dredging and farmed fish, farming shellfish has proven to improve the health of waterways while being a more sustainable, safe food source. So in short, I still consider the scallops I eat as vegan.
Regarding that topic (bivalve sentience) you might find this neurology-based video interesting: No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)
@user-wv8ju3dw8s While I'm not in the habit of responding to an account named John Doe with zero history besides 30+ comments on this one video. I'm just going to say NO. Go troll elsewhere. My initial comment stands very true on both the environmental and health benefits of shellfish. Hence the countless shellfish farming programs around the world. The benefits are well documented and needed. Additionally, even vegans eat shellfish and bivalve veganism has only increased in popularity. Again, the neurology and consciousness arguments made for shellfish stand just as true for many plants. It's a poor argument. Go troll elsewhere.
I don't like oysters though.
When I was a meat eater I just hated the taste for Oysters.
that journaling feature sounds super useful!
The new web site sounds great . One day when you get the time Mic , I would like to read about not putting different veggies that do the same thing in the same meal .
4:48 - The "tongue-like foot" is called a pseudopod.
6:50 - There's also the issue of invasive species. If an animal is introduced into an ecosystem where they have no natural predators, they wreak havoc on that ecosystem. In the great lakes, there are asian carp and zebra mussels that are invasive, and causing a lot of problems.
Here's the thing... we've created the idea of etymology. I don't understand how their being a part of the animal kingdom taking precedence over the idea of sentience and suffering. Plants have a basic level of awareness. I go by sentience and suffering.
I forgot to ask your take on Coconut oil since you're not into oil very much. Maybe you've already commented on this so I'll try to watch all your videos and find out as I'm definitely on a Mic the Vegan binge! Love you!!!
great work, my friend :-)
I'm just here for the comments. 😂 +😂 + 😂
Nutsack
Your forum is a good idea. From a business perspective you need to find other forums that are similar to what you make but you need to make it better. More importantly once the forum is finished you need to market it very well. This forum will only work out if it is BIG. You want to make it a common place for all vegans to go to. Get on the Fastlane forum. A lot of guys on there have made successful forums and they'd be glad to help you and it's free.
I'm not sure if that bivalve flapping away was an oyster or not. Can anyone identify what it is then if it's not an oyster?
It was a Scallop. If in danger Scallops can swim away. There are shellfish that bury themselves deeper in the sand if under threat. Shellfish are no shape or form Vegan. Shellfish are animals.
A lot of shellfish have crabs that live in them, like pea crabs. so when you cook them you are also boiling the crab alive. If you eat crab meat, then that is 1 crab gets boiled alive, but if you eat mussels then it's loads of crabs that are boiled alive.
you are the coolest and I love your intro music!
love the recipe section idea!!!! also a health section is great! love this idea!!!