@@MindShift-Brandon "wish I would have used it" steal it from him after all that is what the Hebrews did with their neighbors religous myths. Steal it and claim it is yours and it didn't exist before you used it.
1:21 - let's be clear. Winger isn't making a mistake here. He knows his audience and the talking points they'll respond to. Claiming someone doesn't believe based on lack of evidence COULD POTENTIALLY cause the believer to question their own belief. *HOWEVER,* if atheist don't believe because of *heart issues* then the believer DOES NOT have to question their own belief. My own family keeps using this talking point....and it's been *twenty years* since I deconverted.
I don’t think that Mike Winger is just sort of calculatedly or cynically pandering to a specific audience. I think that what he tells his audience is probably what he tells himself in his own mind. He’s the definition of the guy who “drank the Kool-Aid”, so to speak.
@@TestMeatDollSteakI completely agree. Mike is just going into preacher mode, where you explain away the problematic challenges to your faith with the first explanation that satisfies you, and it will probably satisfy your audience as well.
The Moloch example makes so much sense in my opinion, and probably illustrates very well why many atheists would not worship the biblical god even if its existence was demonstrated. Many would only be able to pretend to worship it, but could not help despising what it represents based on what it's supposed to have done in the old testament.
As a Christian I am really interested in this line of thinking. In my view these would be vastly different theologies, and a world in which Moloch was truly God, meaning truth, goodness, love etc., would look very different. First of all, in this hypothetical world, our conscience would already compel us to murder babies, so in that world the idea wouldn't be disgusting to us. But I have a feeling this isn't what you mean. I think you mean in our world, where goodness is goodness, and there was a god who forced you to worship him, threatening yo with eternity in hell if you didn't, what would you do. Well, in that world I would have the same answer as Brandon. That I hope I would not veer from my faith in goodness, truth and love (God) and submit to this evil creature. Because in that world Moloch is not God, but a creature.
@@hateyouifyoukillme : can't speak for all atheists of course, but starting from a position of not believing in any god, the definition of goodness is completely independant from any concept of god. Being demonstrated that a god exists probably wouldn't change how I define goodness, that would be the reason for me to despise the biblical god even if I knew for sure it existed. Only the fear of going to hell may motivate me to pretend to worship god, but then again, if I can't help despising it because of what it would have done, I would be doomed anyway, unless I can force myself to change my definition of what is good, which would probably as difficult as forcing myself to believe the Earth to be flat. Hope this clarifies things a bit.
@@hateyouifyoukillme As an ex-Pentecostal there's many things I could rhetort to that but I don't want to get lost in the weeds. I can only say that part of my long journey out has been recognizing the fact that morality is by its nature subjective to human goodness. When I search for moral behavior and coherent ethics I had to turn to secular paths to find it.
@@hateyouifyoukillme _"...our conscience would already compel us to murder babies..."_ You only think that not sacrificing babies is fine, because your conscience is seared, your heart is hardened and you love the world more than you love the one true god. Or something along that line. That's what the faithful Molochists would say. At least, that's what many faithful Christians say when faced with ideas of morality they reject.
There's a huge difference between OBEYING a god to avoid torture, and LOVING that same god. If the biblical stories about it are true, then a moral person would be UNABLE to love it. And if the claims about its omniscience are true, PRETENDING to love it would be futile. As Christians so often like to say in defending their absurd concept of free will, "God will not force anyone to love him." But based on their view of hell, their god would have no problem torturing someone who is unable to love the monster that he is.
Jesus says as one of his two greatest commandments to love God with all your heart. That to me shows you *have* to love God in order to be accepted by him.
We have no choice to sin because of what Adam and Eve did. It’s funny how the most common Christian response to why we need Jesus is because we have fallen so much and how sinful we are. So much for free will when we were given no choice but the be sinful beings
"But you SEND YOURSELF to hell. Because you didn't get your theology just right, out of all competing claims out there. Sorry, God's hands are tied." - Most Christians
If the Abrahamic god as described in the bible was 'proved' to exist, not only would I not worship it, I would feel morally compelled to do my best to kill it..
That sounds like Hitchens, and I've used it. It's a tyrannical monster, even given the wishy-washy treatment they claim that the NT gives him/it. The NT treatment only makes it more of a mad god that should be taken down in any D&D campaign or anime or movie series.
Years ago I had a discussion with a Christian where I criticized God's lack of morality and fairness. When he couldn't use logic and reason to beat my argument he pulled out what he considered to be his trump card and stated: "it is fair because God says it's fair." At that point I just walked away because I didn't feel like I could have a rational conversation with that person anymore. It's still blows my mind how Christians can call their God good and loving. I've said it once and I'll say it again: Yahweh would not make it to Heaven by his own standards.
EVIL PSYCHO YWH THE BABY, PREGNANT WOMAN, ANIAML GENOCIDER STONER OF WOMAN, CHILDREN' PEDO SLAVERER . OH YES WHAT MORALS. THESE EVIL FREAKS ARE BRAIINWASHED AN LIKE IT TOOK ME 1 30 MIN VIDO ABOUT EVIL YWH BOOK OF CONTRADICTIONS TO BAIL THIS TRASH I HAD NO IDEA ABOUT THE REST OF THE EVIL THE EVIL IS BEYOND WORDS. THESE PEOPLE ARE EVIL FREAKS.
@@nicholastrudeau7581 on the subject of fairness I didn't think that it's fair for God to punish the human race for the wrongdoing of two people. Then you also have to take an account animal suffering. Animals had no say in what happened in the garden of eden. But they were punished right along with us.
@@Shinobi2075 that wrongdoing is called sin. God hates sin and cannot stand to be near it, so out of Mercy's sake, He stepped away from it, but as a result natural disasters, storms, disease, war, crime, and ultimately death became reality for all life on this planet. Would you rather have had him end all life? What exactly is fair? And who is the ultimate determinant of it? That wrongdoing is called sin. God hates sin, so he stepped away from the universe, and as a result natural disasters, storms, disease, war, crime, and ultimately death took over. You and I are no different from Adam and Eve. When given the opportunity, we will eventually sin. Who determines what is fair? What makes that person the decider?
@@nicholastrudeau7581 The subject of sin. This thing that is passed down from parent to child. Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, and that is how the cycle began. Sin is passed on to each new generation. Sin contaminated the world. But something to keep in mind here is this: if sin works that way, it's because God engineered it to work that way. If things went bad in the world, as far as things in nature went, then its because God made it to work that way. Again, what about animal suffering? They had no say in this. Why are they made to suffer along with us if an all powerful (and supposedly good) God could prevent it? God can't stand sin? What does that even mean? Is God sitting there on his throne seething in anger, grinding his teeth, with his eyes turning red? Is he stomping his feet every time somebody tells a small little lie or steals a cookie from the cookie jar? I guess so because it seems like he got awfully bent out of shape over a piece of fruit. Is God standing there doubled over in pain because somebody sins? Is he pulling his hair out? Is it hurting god? Because what it sounds like is that God simply can't stand anything or anyone that doesn't agree with him. And I say that because supposedly the God of the Bible will send you to Hell for even the smallest offenses. I don't believe God exists, at least not the god of the Bible. If there really was an all-powerful, all knowing being who was so far above and beyond us I don't believe it would waste its time creating humans to begin with. So I just want to state that off the bat. What would it have to gain from doing so? Why would it need to create us? If I can find it in my heart to forgive my neighbor who has trespassed against me, and if I can find it in my heart to do so without my neighbor even asking me, then why can't God who is so far beyond me and above me do the same? I don't require someone that has wronged me to suffer eternally if they don't ask for my forgiveness. In fact a lot of times when you forgive somebody you're not doing it just for them, you do it for yourself so you can move on. And I certainly wouldn't ask somebody to give me a sacrifice to appease me. Would I rather have had him end all life? Well considering our world, perhaps it would have been better to not allow Adam and Eve to procreate. Or better yet, perhaps it would have been better for him to not go through with creation to begin with. He knew how this was going to turn out, but went ahead with it anyway. He knew that most of his children would be going to Hell, and only a few would actually make it to Heaven. And as for Adam and Eve and us being just like them, I don't think that's a good argument. I mean instead of creating Adam and Eve, who God knew would fail him, why didn't he create Tom and Jane who he knew ahead of time would live up to his standards? Is it because that wouldn't be free will?So Adam and Eve didn't have free will before eating the fruit? They have to sin in order to have free will? Does God sin, and if not does that mean he does not have free will? I've heard Christians say that if God only created humans who didn't sin it would be robbing of them of their free will. And that all of us humans would have done exactly the same as Adam and Eve. But isn't that kind of the same thing just at the opposite end of the spectrum? I mean if you said that 50%, 30%, or even 1% of humans would have lived up to God's demands then don't they deserve to be given the chance to do so? Wouldn't that be worth it to actually create a successful group of children? I'm sorry but if you're going to say that all humans would have done as Adam and Eve did (sooner or later) then that means there was something wrong with the way we were created. There was something faulty with us to begin with. I'm looking at this as a parent myself. I was told that God loves us immensely, even more so than our biological earthly parents. But at the same time, this loving father of ours will send us to Hell if we don't “get right with him”. I certainly wouldn't burn my own child in a pool of gasoline because they did something that offended me. But according to Christianity, God does worse than this to his own children. At least the pool of gasoline will eventually burn out. Hell doesn't. Assuming Christianity is true, are the people that are in Hell now sorry that they are there? I'm sure they are. So why can't this loving God let them out and give them another chance? I bet they'd be the most upstanding Christians you ever met. Forget going to church on Sunday, they'd go seven days a week if you let them. Tithe 10-15% of your income? Nah, they'd sign over their entire paychecks every week and just happily live on the streets and eat out of garbage cans. They'd be model Christians I bet, because they'd be too terrified not to be out of fear of going back to Hell. And this is what God wants us to be: upstanding children. Maybe he should send everyone there, a sort of mandatory tour of Hell. And a Christian might say: “The people in Hell wouldn't change anyway.” And to that I would say: “Hell must not be that bad then.” I don't believe our sense of morality and fairness comes from God, it comes from us. We get it from our own empathy, and we also get it because well we've learned a society what works best for our species. It took a lot of trial and error but what we have as morals today is something that we got from learning what is best for us as a society. As for God I suppose I would judge him like I would judge any leader or authority figure. Does this leader practice what he preaches? Does he set a good example? If the leader of our country commanded genocide of men women and children in another country after it invading that country we would undoubtedly see him as a monster. If one of your parents committed murder and the judge sentenced him or her to life from prison or gave them the death penalty You probably wouldn't think it was very fair if the judge also decided to lump not only you but your children and your grandchildren into the sentencing as well because of something your parent did. You might be sitting there asking: “How does this make sense? I had nothing to do with this. It wasn't my fault.” I'm sorry but I don't think the story works. If I was going to believe in God, I'd be more inclined to believe in something like Deism, where God isn't personal with us. Or maybe God isn't even aware of us. Maybe God isn't a person, maybe God is more of a thing. But the idea that God is some being that loves and cares about us immensely doesn't hold up. Me becoming a parent showed me this. Punish my child because of something he did wrong? Sure. But the punishment would fit the offense. I would never put my child in something as horrific as Hell for eternity. As a parent if I can see past defects of my own child and love him anyway despite the shortcomings then its a bit puzzling why God that can't do the same for us. It doesn't say to me he's very loving and fair if he has to punish his children for eternity. It doesn't speak to me of a god that is kind benevolent, loving, forgiving, etc. It points to a God that's petty, vengeful, jealous, and possessing some of the worst traits of humanity.
You hit the nail on the head. Christians are motivated way more about avoiding hell than they are about going to heaven. I know this because I used to be that same way when I was a believer.
Pretty broad generalization given how many christians and types of churches there are. In my neck of the theist woods we knew fear of hell was baby faith, the very beginning of the journey and not even a good reason to stay growing in faith. Broad brushing like that is every bit as intellectually reductive as theists who think we are all miserable morally unrestrained criminals without god.
@@outermarker5801The human fear of death and wanting eternal life have been the majority of religious I've known. Some also seem addicted to a superiority complex, no evidence needed. I'd agree with your assessment that the fear of hell, isn't the predominant motivation to believe. I've also known highly intelligent religious and nonreligious.
@@ericreed4535 Yeah. When I left long ago I had gotten to the point of just loving god and longing for a better life after this one. Not just for me, that's more baby faith selfishness. But moreso all those suffering in the world around me. It's that looking beyond myself that really opened up the floodgates of questions. None of the usual trite theist defensive arguments about 'free will' etc held water any more. Still don't.
Yes exactly. If God came back and actually was all knowing, all loving, and all forgiving. Sure I'm down with that. However the bible claims that nature for God, and then describes God behaving completely opposite of that. I would even be more accepting of a completely neutral god, which better explains why evil exists. God is neutral and doesn't pick a side. Evil is just another of its creations. Why be bias? That would at least make logical sense because it would align with what we observe in life.
100%. Something like the God that you describing actually would make far more sense. ie maybe this God has some good and wonderful aspects, but ultimately it is somewhat indifferent towards routine human affairs.
I think this was one of your best videos. Your thought experiments at the end were all fantastic. Also, Kristi Burke has become one of my absolute favorite atheist content creators in a very short span of time, her stuff is great.
She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
I once gave a theoretical to a group of mostly Christians (about 100 people)...I said "What if you died, and went to heaven, and instead of the god you think you know, there was Lucifer, sitting on a throne of light, and he said "Everything you were taught was false, I am the true God of humanity, a God of Light, Love, and Peace. I will gladly accept you into my heavenly realm, if only you will denounce the wicked god, and follow me." I asked, how many of them would accept what he said? Not a single one raised their hand. I said "You'd think it was a lie, a trick, right?" I said, "Exactly. So, even if I die and go to a 'heaven' and find the biblical god there, I still wouldn't believe or follow him. I would wait for a true cosmic deity to save me, and accept my suffering in the meantime." This, of course, was in response to hearing the old line "Every knee will bow, every tongue confess." To which I was saying, "Even in the most extreme of circumstances, I won't. And as I proved, neither would you."
I've asked people something similar: What if accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior was a trick that actually SENDS you to hell, rather than saving you? What if the real God just wanted to test you, to see how easily you would accept something that sounds good on the surface, but does not have sufficient evidence to back it up? Of course they just wave it away like it's nothing. They themselves couldn't possibly be deceived, apparently.
@@mattr.1887 This is an argument I like to use against Pascal's Wager because it's basically the same flawed logic. "What if God is real, but he is a god that values critical thinking and will send you to hell for believing in a deity without evidence and accept you into heaven for recognizing the lack of evidence? Then you might as well be an atheist because you avoid hell whether this god is real or not." Of course this is a false dichotomy but that's the point, this is why Pascal's Wager doesn't work.
To be brutally honest, spending Eternity in heaven is the scariest option. Even if I'm not forced to worship someone that I would actually resent and despise, Eternity is a pretty long time and I'd eventually become so bored I'd be begging to end it all. Besides, I'm a terrible liar and I couldn't keep up the pretense of pretending to love someone so despicable and abhorrent to me. Still, if I thought I could get away with it, I'd pretend for a bit, take a look around heaven and see if there's anything interesting to do and as soon as there's not, whip out some Black Sabbath or something...
You could be the worlds greatest liar and it shouldn't matter: God is all knowing. So even if at that instant you said that you agreed to worship him, with him being all knowing he would know for certain not only that you will eventually cease worshipping him, he would know the exact time in the future that this would happen. He knew it before he asked you the question, before you existed, before he ever created the heavens and the earth. If god is and always was eternal with no beginning and no end then he knew it for a literal eternity before he ever asked you to worship him.
@@edthompson2099 Why risk going to hell just cause you didn't test if you could get out on the technicality of not expressing your disbelief? If you aren't absolutely certain that your inner beliefs matter more than your expressed ones I'd still give it my best shot at faking it, knowing that he knows I'm faking it. I'd be the biggest suck-up ever if that'll help. At least in heaven I'm not distracted by suffering and can start to plot my own rise to enough divine power that my mind will tolerate eternity haha.
Tbh, the one person on here who said christians are more motivated to avoid hell was spot on for me. Theres a huge difference from duty vs compassion. I did all the things i did that would be considered good because i felt like i HAD to do them, not because i wanted to or had the compassion to help others, but because i felt like if i didnt do them, i would be sinning. And i dont even think i did it to make God happy, i did it to escape hell. Everything was to get into heaven, never because I loved God. Now i dont really know what to do anymore.
This is very common and honestly an expected result when the god of the universe puts a gun to your head. Its just one of the many reasons this doesnt work for me at all.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
Very much agree with your closing statement. Even when I considered myself a "Christian" I had real problems with Yahweh, the Sky Daddy Bossgod. He is too parochial, grumpy and selfish as depicted in the Bible. The Jesus Story and the concept of the Holy Spirit had more appeal, as they tied into a syncretism as I was into the "Perennial Philosophy", and comparative mythology and religion. The deity you described was pretty much what I envisioned, and if such a one manifested Themself to me with irrefutable evidence, They would be a lot easier to follow than Old Grumpypants of the Old Testament.
Yes if a god existed that we all imagined as kids, maybe there would be hope but even Jesus was disgusting after really understanding the NT. Thanks for watching!
@@jacliveshere And yet Yahweh allowed his chosen people to suffer captivity in the OT and genocide in the mid 20th century, while smiting the innocent and punishing souls way in excess of what their temporal sins deserved. Screw Him.
@@jacliveshere That's awful. 😞😞 Sorry to here that. I don't recognise anything from my readings of the NT that would advocate making anyone suffer like that. But then I didn't come from a particularly religious background. Just typical Church of England, attend church for hatches, matches and dispatches only sort of thing.
I still believed in the God of the Bible when I decided I didn't want to worship him or have anything to do with religion. As a JW though, we didn't have a hell fire to fear, just destruction at Armageddon. So I imagine choosing just to die and no longer exist is a bit easier than if you have the fear of eternal torment.
Im a follower of Jesus and liked and subscribed to this channel, as I believe as Christians we need to face all the questions raised here. Have an awesome day guys! 😊
I've been thinking that you and Kristi Burke should work together on something, because you both are so on top of it with your content! I love this synchronous moment. 🤗
@@MindShift-BrandonHi Brandon. I only just discovered your channel today courtesy of Prophet Of Zod. I'm just going through a binge session on your back collection. So far it's fantastic. 😊👍
I know this is an old saying, but "actions speak louder than words" seems to apply here. It doesn't matter how often the religious claim their god is love and loves you, if the bible is a true assessment of his character then god is a monster
*Very* important issue here. The Christian viewpoint seems to be that the existence alone of God should merit worship. I've seen comments elsewhere that said, "You owe your Creator worship." (To me you could make a good argument for the opposite, actually.) But that just lays bare the true might makes right nature of the religion. Because it is 100% based on that. God Himself tells as much to Job, and Paul reiterates the same sentiments in Romans. Hell is the #1 selling point for conversion. Because it doesn't matter how objectionable you may find the Bible to be if the party in question has the power to torture you unimaginably forever. But it's like they don't want to recognize the fundamental wrongness of the very setup. Great video; very important. :)
@@MindShift-BrandonSomething which is both of hilarious and infuriating is when Christians then proceed to insist that Hell isn't a Threat. "It's a Choice! God won't force you to go to Heaven, you have the option of eternal torment instead!"
@@jaschabull2365 What I meant was, I disagree with people who would say that a Creator is owed worship simply for the fact of creation. If your Maker made you to exist with only 2 options: worship me or burn eternally - then to me it is not an unreasonable response to resent the position that that Maker has put you in.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
Love the Harry/Gandalf example!!! You hit a really deep desire inside of me. I too really want there to be a firmament that keeps me safe from all harm. I want a God that is moral and believable, and I want Christ to be all that is claimed. But it make NO sense! And reading the Bible only exponentially increases the nonsense. Great video Brandon, and I actually found you and Kristi Burke the very same day.
Assuming, in this make believe scenario, that it’s the Christian “Omni-god”, I would think that god would know how I REALLY felt. That I couldn’t say, “Oh, ok…you’re real so yes, I’ll follow and worship you” without that god knowing that I think it’s a narcissistic bully who condones rape, slavery, genocide, etc. and that I detest it. I’ll sub to Kristi, thank you.
Nothing says a God is a narcissistic bully quite like that God giving you the choice on whether or not to worship him and you ignoring that God still has to those individuals who were killed in a genocide after death because after all only those who were killed in genocides are the only ones who ever die. It’s not like we all will die some day. Oh yeah, that’s not the case. It’s not like it’s proven that there is nothing more to one’s existence beyond this life. Oh yeah, it hasn’t. After all it’s proven that those who were given certain trials to deal with in this life would automatically be given those same conditions after this life, like being enslaved, or that it’s proven that those who were slave owners would not be held accountable for how they treated those slaves. Oh yeah, it hasn’t. It’s not like God wanted his chosen people to be just like everybody else where they can run amok with having institutions such as having slavery or having a king without any conditions attached. Oh yeah, that’s not the case. But that’s because God didn’t want his chosen people to have the freedom to make decisions for themselves on whether or not to follow God because God just makes people worship regardless. That’s why you never hear of any cases of people breaking any of God’s commandments. After all, God is such a bully. Oh yeah, that’s not the case. So, what are you talking about?
There's also the "warm fuzziests" (my term for them) - the ones that only hear the nice, fluffy, happy, comfortable, convenient sentiments in christianity and refuse to listen to the rest of it!
@@tulpas93 Believing (having faith) is not about warm fuzzies or fear, it's about knowing (admitting) our sinful condition and accepting the free gift of God, his forgiveness, Grace and Mercy. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. We are born again believers because we know and love the truth, Jesus Christ/God. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. You can call Jesus Christ/God a liar if you choose to do so. The truth will never go away. he is alive and well. One day every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
@paulgemme6056 So cute! when you're ready, Recovering from Religion (non profit & non prophet) is there for you and anyone else you know who frees themselves from the ills of dogma. Good health to you! ♥️
@@tulpas93 There is eternal life - knowing God/Jesus Christ, the free gift of God for those who believe (have faith) the truth (Jesus Christ). The truth will never die, as much as you hate him (for telling the truth) he will never die. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
@paulgemme6056 You don't get it. I'm not shopping for mythologies, and if I was, I certainly wouldn't opt for such a morally bankrupt, blood-sacrifice fueled, religion with its abusive, meglomaniacal, immature, insecure deity. I'd choose something worthy of respect, someone fierce and clever, like Oðinn. Thanks for commenting here and thereby promoting this channel and spreading the reach of its message! Keep it up!
Thank you for this video. As a child I was very critical of God and Jesus but of course I did not at all doubt their existence then. When in my early teenage years I expressed my thoughts about Jesus, I was told that my thoughts were blasphemous and I was warned that if I expressed those thoughts again, I would go to hell. Of course as a child I feared hell. But now I am one of those stupid atheists who would rather go to hell. Yes physical torment for eternity is horrendous but the thought of one minute in heaven fills me with extreme psychological and mental anguish. I could not endure an eternity in heaven.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
Sorry that I'm 5 months late, Brandon your final thoughts part in the video is spot on. That's exactly how I feel. I too wish for that kind of god, I too would follow him in a second.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
THIS IS THE BEST VIDEO I HAVE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE!! You nailed it my friend! WELL SAID!!! Im so glad that I discovered you & your channel and this awesome video! I am sending it to many people that I know! Once again-WELL SAID & great job!! Thank you! ❤❤
That's an interesting connundrum, that a lot of people - even the engaged atheists, and much less the "faithful" - haven't really considered: what does it mean for God to be "real"? MindShift here has understood it. That's quite rare. Once - years back now - I proposed the following question/though experiment in a Christian forum's discussion about morality and its origin: "If the Nazi racial ideology was true, and the Jews were indeed a subhuman species intend on destroying the superiour human races... would killing them be immoral?" Not surprisingly, I didn't receive any meaningful responses to that question. Instead, I got accusations of being anti-semitic, a Nazi, a monster... and then the post was removed for some unspecified infraction of the rules. I see a similar problem here. A lot of Christian theology, dogma, doctrines, morals appear counterintuitive to us. Immoral even... or outright evil. But if all this was shown to be "true"... the correct approach, the correct solutions... would not following them not be "wrong"? Immoral? So, for me, I have to say: yes, if Christianity was shown to be "true", I would follow Jesus. But it isn't. Mike Winger might call that a "heart" problem... but he ignores the problem that it is the evidence to change my "heart" that is lacking in this case. Apologists of his type (and they all are, more or less) just find it easier to attack the integrity of their opponents that to "defend their faith". As if by showing that the opposite may not be perfect, your own inane ideas must be correct by default.
@@MindShift-Brandon It's similar to your example of Moloch being shown as the "true god". But I would disagree with the second point that "You would follow him, becaus he's god, _and might makes right_ ". This expression does have a negative connotation, and it does not fit here. He would just be "right", period. By nature, by existence. He's right, you're wrong. And you would understand and accept that... and not just submit to his superiour power and authority. That's the gist of my point: if this system was right, and I was shown that... I would accept that. That's different from: "I might not accept that the system is right, but I will go along with it because it can force me." And that is the reason (here, in this case) why I reject Christianity (or theism in general): it has not shown that it is right, and, as you pointed out, it is (or appears to be) too inconsistent and self-contracting to ever do that. That's the reason why I tell every Christian preacher and apologist that I engage with: "I am willing to listen. I am willing to be shown wrong. DO SO!" And that is why I am still an atheist, after all these decades: no one has ever been able to do that. Many haven't even tried. Many have tried in the same old failing ways. Some - very few - did try... and still failed.
@revilo178 I might disagree that _nothing_ can be objectively right, but there are some things/concepts that are not and can indeed not be. I'd say that "morality" is one of these. And that would indeed invalidate the existence of a deity as creator or with "objective morality".
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
I think I found your channel and Kristie's on the same week. I really enjoy both channels. For me, worshipping the god of the Bible for all of eternity would be torture. I agree that it would be a difficult choice between heaven and hell, but for me it would be choosing what kind of torture I would have for all of eternity.
@@yoeyyoey8937 Eternal happiness would suck! First: Why? Why is happiness the only feeling we will have in heaven? Are other emotions bad? Second: How? Does God force people to feel happy? Are we "free" to feel other emotions? If we are, then it just takes one person at one moment to not feel happy in order for the claim of "eternal happiness" to be untrue. 3. Who? Who are we if we can't experience other emotions? Can we remember the other emotions? We here on earth have many different emotions and those are a big part of who we are, if we aren't able to continue to feel those emotions, are we still ourselves? Fourth: What? What kind of God is the god of the Bible? What does it say about him since he only allows happiness in his presence? Does he allow freewill in his presence? I was forced to feel happy as a child and it sucked! It sucked so much I wanted to kill myself. If I would be forced to feel happy for all of eternity and would literally prefer to be burned alive for all of eternity.
I love that hypothetical tbh, I think it really can show the picture if their mind is able to conceptualize it and be honest. When asked that, they’re gonna have to think about why child sacrifice would be wrong
I agree with you 99%. Except that I don't want to have a "heavenly father" =D Those apologists disgust me so much! "If you don't want to believe in my god -- you're evil and a sinner". Yeah, right. Ugh. They play and rewind the same old tape, as if never having heard our opinion -- it's irritating. No, we do have higher moral standards, that's the problem with yahweh. Thank a god, he cannot exist as described in the bible.
So well put! When I believed I felt like I was trying to understand a god and morality that honestly felt wrong and immoral. What kept me in were the statements like His ways are higher than our ways, doubt your doubts not god, and of course- hell. I came to this as an adult with little true understanding, just the god is love and the joy of being part of a family. I was relieved to find I didn’t have to accept a genocide ordering, people judging slave apologist creature anymore as the evidence and my study ramped up. Very well put
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
Don't worry. The biblical god isn't going to come down and stand in front of anyone. The biblical god is a fictional character. He walked with Adam but by the time of Moses no one could look at him without dying. Now we are supposed to see him when we look at trees and kittens. He served his purpose during the genocide of the Amalakites. He now persists only in the words of the books.
@@MindShift-Brandon Your hypothetical at the end would be far too overwhelming for poor old Mike. Exposing himself to wrestling with it in front of his audience would be career suicide for him.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
When I first realized that I was an atheist, I still wanted the Big Daddy in the Sky. He would be perfectly moral and benevolent. He would watch over me and carry me over the rough patches. Now, I find the idea abhorrent. The only thing that gives me the feeling of autonomy and identity, I would have to sacrifice for the equivalent of a mind numbing drug and a baby's pacifier.
Its a great point. I go back and forth with if i want a god to exist. I think if god could really be all the things hes supposed to be, it could be something amazing. Its just hard to imagine
@@MindShift-Brandon If the god of the bible is real. Then he is amusing himself and keeping himself from being lonely by watching his "ant farm" of humans. When I was a kid I had an "ant farm" and they are fun to watch.
@@MindShift-Brandon The only version I find compelling is a god that is not omnipotent but within that frame of lots of power and benevolent intentions does the best he can. I don't get why christian people are so obsessed about omnipotence being literal. If they weren't their faith would be coherent, god is bound by some laws of the universe that are natural phenomenon like we atheists believe the universe to be anyway. No problem anymore. Apart from evidence of course.
Great discussion. For me the hypothetical proves the unworthiness of the Abrahamic God (as you point out) If my only reason for following is fear then that God is no more powerful than a mob boss or a dictator. Of course I would choose not to suffer. But the fact that God would be satisfied with my coerced worship proves that gods unworthiness.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
What I basically keep hearing is, Believe or burn. There's your "choice". As a kid, I always equated heaven to church. I hated going to church. I don't see heaven as any better than hell, because it's choosing one form of torture over another. Since we don't have a physical body and once we die our brains go along with us so we don't have a mind... What exactly is "experiencing" Either heaven or hell? Does god just simply want obedient little minions no matter what? The minions don't have be willing or convinced. God just wants them lined up in a row ready to go. Sing praises or commit genocide. Whatever it demands. 🙄 It's like you have a serial killer, who wants to have a little minion around on a leash. The little minion has to constantly be assuring the god and assuaging the god and sweet talking to God, otherwise it gets cranky and starts genociding... I don't get it. I never have. ❤ Thanks for another great video.l
@@MindShift-Brandon The atheist saying that even if God is real we wouldn't worship it, is Christians cue to misinterpret. For me, thing that if the god is real I won't worship it, is like saying even if the three-cornered, moss covered, family credenza is real, I'll still think it's ugly and I won't want it in my house. Yeah, it's exists. I still won't have it in my house. I still think it's ugly. Your sales pitch isn't going to change that. ❤️
Excellent points. Couldn't have argued better myself. Again I have to recommend Stargate SG1, because these issues end up in the last couple of seasons. Are gods to be followed because they can threaten us with suffering? Or can we actually demand more of gods than just raw power.
Agreed. If faced with absolute, undeniable proof that God is real and I had one last chance to choose to follow him or face eternal torture in Hell, I hope I would have the fortitude to refuse on the basis of him being unjust and not worthy of my praise and submission. However, to be 100% truthful, I really don't know what I would do in the moment. Fear is a great motivator. Which is one of the problems I have with God. An omni-benevolent and just god wouldn't threaten people into submission. If God truly wants me to believe in him and doesn't want me to go to Hell (despite the very concept of Hell being ridiculous in such a situation), he would do everything he can to prevent me from going there. Things like appearing to me in person and being like "Hey, I'm real. Please believe in me and follow my commandments. I don't want you to go to Hell."
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
For believers everything comes back to sin and a fallen world. God gets to take a pass on virtually everything bad...everything is because of Adam and Eve. Thousands of years of injustices and tragedies and calamities and all because of one incident at one point in time by two people. That is not just. That is not loving. That certainly isn't moral.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
From what I’ve seen, Mike would respond by reaffirming that you’re lying about your position. He (and most apologists) can’t allow himself to believe that there are nonresistant nonbelievers. If his particular god exists, then your position can’t exist. It’s amazing to listen to them when they lay it out, and it’s a big part of why they can’t communicate effectively with non-Christians.
Yoooo! I love and watch kristi!! Do you watch her other videos? Also are there atheist creators you are open to collaborating with? Is she one of them? I love all of your videos btw
Yes i watch all her stuff. Shes amazing. I do hope to collab with her sometime soon and yes very open to working with lots of others! Thank you for being here.
The issue as I see it Brandon is that we the west have not allowed east religions or the 'observations of nature' into serious western thought. Abraham religions have a choke hold on the west which should be dealt with and break free. Exposing the evidentiary facts like Mindshift and Christie Burke and many others do is a good thing. 'Blessed be' to Mindshift and Christie Burke's work.
Oh, I love and look forward to new vids on this channel! About Mike, you know Brandon, I am in near daily contact with religious people who buy into Might Makes Right, and I can see the distinction you make and agree, I would go along out of Compulsion, but not out of love, but out of terror. Agree Hitch was spitting into the wind, being a captive is probably better than being tortured without end. Mike mixes worship with revulsion. "See, evidence is not an issue," he seems to say, b/c if god is real, Boy you better get in line! And I can agree with that, pretty much like letting the Bully have his way, unless you want to be the next victim.
I don't worship *everything* that I know is real. "Reality", by its existence, does not require worship. If the Christian God were real, my worship would *still* depend on its behavior.
"If there is a god, he will have to beg my forgiveness." - scratched onto a wall at the Mauthausen Concentration Camp, Austria. I think this sums up the situation nicely.
You make some great points in this video, thanks. I have also had my own issues with Yahweh and the worship of him. When I was about eight or nine I came to the conclusion that God was pretty creepy as he required blood sacrifice of animals. And the instructions to remove various areas of visceral fat and burn them because Yahweh enjoyed the smell. Upon actually reading the Bible when in my teens, I came across verses that pointed to human sacrifice as well, see judges 11: 29 -40 and others. I also had the feeling that no god should need or require worship if God is and has everything,. Why does a god that is pure spirit and has made everything need blood sacrifice, not just animals and humans, but his own son? Surely he could've come up with a better plan. I haven't really changed my thoughts much on Christianity from when I was a little kid. I knew it was vile then, and that has not changed.
Yea that is creepy. We are eating Jesus’ flesh and blood and pretending it’s not cannibalism, or that regular “sacrifice” isn’t totally a pagan concept that humans have been doing since time immemorial
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
I love how you put things succinctly. I have seen many atheist videos but I don't recall anything singling out this point and explain it so plainly. In the past atheists always assumed what you said because it seems obvious, but you are the first one to spell it out. And yes christian all powerful God makes no sense. If he's all powerful, why would he need anything from you? You can't add or subtract from him. When I command my kids to do something it's for their own good. There's nothing that they can give to me since I'm the source of everything that they have. They brush their teeth for their own good, they make the bed for their own good, it would be easier for me to do their chores then it is to make them do chores.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
This idea is interesting because I never thought about it. But if the Christian god were real, I would not follow him unless, of course, all the stories were false. What I would do is say, "Well, if god is real, then Satan must be real too. Is Satan actually the good guy in all this." It would actually make me research to follow Satan instead.
I already don’t believe in this religion because naturalistic explanations for the origin of the universe are more parsimonious than supernatural ones, but odious teachings such as that of Hell make me not want to believe either. It is a shame, because I’d probably be happy as a Christian if the teachings weren’t so monstrous.
I'd be happy not worshipping, but follow and communicating with a god who was not perfect and not all powerful, but powerful enough and good enough. I wouldn't demand perfection just as I don't demand perfection of my fellow humans or myself. The problem is when people claim God is perfect and all powerful (doesn't match the world we live in) or even worse, say that their god is perfect, but describe a deeply immoral god.
Where would we be without our creator God who is the Phallus in Deuteronomy 32.18 as the"rock that begat thee." Remember where Jacob erects the Hermes stone and anoints it with oil (semen). El/Al is the phalllus of the Ram (Aries) the god of Israel. Israel is two words of Isra/Ysra/Asra (phallus) and El (Ram God).
Would be great to see somebody cover the challenge that Dr. James Tour put forward on his channel this morning. How to create life from non-life. It pertains to the topic of creation... hence the possibility of a God... So it's worth a studious look at the challenge.
This topic is pretty much how I would explain why I'm not a Christian. I'm not sure how I can have an earnest relationship with a god, or really anyone, who says "love me or you will suffer." My only reason to do so would be out of fear, which fittingly describes my experience with Christianity. Also, if I can't help but question the integrity of this god, how can I even trust that it will keep its promises?
Well they would say that you are choosing your own suffering, but that is still God holding a gun to your head pretty much, and then victim blaming after the fact. I do think we choose our own suffer, but it has nothing to do with an external place called “hell”
I've heard from one of my college professors that at least some Muslims actually don't think that they can be sure the promises made to them will be kept, and that they very well might wake up after dying and be told, "Psyche! I'm damning all Muslims and saving everyone else!" and that would be perfectly in his right, because who could possibly hold an all-powerful, omnipotent being to a promise they made? (I've never heard that directly from an actual Muslim, so that may well be taken with a grain of salt).
Gods way of creating a perfect world: (…) To create the universe Wait Billions of years Create a man out of mud and a woman out of that man Tell them not to do something that you know they’re gonna do And then threaten them with death And then, when they do it, not kill them, just make their life difficult Then go through a comedy of errors of having people fail to love you or listen to you or obey you over and over Flood the world - start over again Confuse their languages in order to try to start over again, Encourage war Gradually go from walking and talking with them to not interacting in any detectable way And then magically impregnate a young girl so that you can take human form As a sort of god man that’s fully god but fully man - which doesn’t actually make sense So that you can sacrifice yourself to yourself as a blood magic loophole For rules you’re in charge off so you can set aside your own anger because that’s the thing that we’re being saved from - it’s God’s wrath its just that it’s declared to be justice Then expect future generations to believe without sufficient evidence. M. Dillahunty
I'm one of those who would not obey god. You summed it up nicely as to why I would not. I'm not sure of the existence of any god(s), but I sure would have nothing to do with the "biblical god".
As usual an excellent video. I find that Christian fundamentalists generally loath hypotheticals when hypotheticals are used in discussions about their beliefs. It's hypocritical, given that they would find hypotheticals quite reasonable otherwise. If God were to present himself to me then I would worship him, simply because I would not want to be tortured for eternity for failing to do so. But gee, I would struggle to make the worship earnest, because I'd also be thinking of all those people God killed. So he would detect this reticence in me and detect my faking it. So I'd still end up in hell.
lol yes these are always the issues with this question or pascals wager. Is god so foolish, he doesnt see the self preservation side. Maybe he doesnt care, just needs that us to smash that like button over and over
@@MindShift-Brandon Romans 9 seems to imply that it isn't really an oversight and that God just sometimes (or I guess a lot of the time, considering how few people Christians claim will ultimately be saved) sets people up to fail just because he wants to. That passage really makes it hard to see the Christian philosophy as ultimately being that might is right (at least in the case of absolutes).
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
Your last words are exactly how I feel. ❤ My heart was broken to start with. I'm still struggling at times because i wasn't afraid of hell, I loved God, something that wasnt even real but I'm free after a lifetime of believing with all my heart that there was a loving god. I know better now, and if, He the God of the Bible came down and he is in fact responsible or even sat back and let his creation suffee since the beginning until now, i dont need him nor would I serve him. Ive seen so many kind and loving people suffer greatly, and I will never understand how he could have done nothing!!!! Nah, im good. Thank you for this very important information! 😊
Actually, I somewhat agree that it is a heart issue. I know in my heart that slavery and genocide etc. are wrong and cannot continue to excuse them. That's an issue of my heart.
This is the biggest issue I always have I'm not against a loving God never have been never will be its just every time i picked up the bible open to a random passage id read some absurd awful shit!! God is LOVE also torments people forever... UMM WHAT?
I would ask Mike: If Jesus and Muhammad showed up and Jesus said, "Muhammad is right. I'm just a prophet of Allah like others were," would Mike give up Christianity and embrace Islam?
belief and worship are indeed two different questions and i agree with your assessment and ethical evaluation except for your 'final thoughts' section. however the consequences of this hypothetical game, if yahweh or his christian version 'revealed himself' with the pseudo-dilemma of heaven-hell makes for a cute game for children because it is so ridiculous that is commensurate to the sauron beast of lord of the rings. how can one take these fables seriously ?!
I met Jesus when I was working doing landscaping. We became close friends, and he thought me many things that made me wiser, and a better person. unfortunately he was called back home to assist his father…in Guatemala.
I'd choose Hell. Why? Because this god is evil if he has an "eternal hell". I can't trust this god to create a good heaven. Heaven would be a hell. It's a choice between hell by fire or hell by whatever unknown torture exists in heaven. This is a very wicked creature and it lies. So what? I get the momentary relief of getting away with a lie to an omniscient egotistical Homelander? That's scary. I'd never know when Homelander would decide to torture me. I think Hell would be a one and done. At some point, you'll get used to the pain. I don't think I'd get used to pretending and hoping that Homelander won't violently dismember me and say "I knew you were lying. I wanted to draw it out." *Homelander - the character from the Amazon show "The Boys"
First off, sin is imperfection is the utmost WORST to perfection. God's standards are NOT our standards, what we would consider a 'white lie' that's tiny and innocent. God equates it to something akin to S.A to a child, though, he likely hates the latter more than the former,. Sinning Once, is ETERNALLY going against literal perfection, as you are now infinitely away from what it is. Think of it like 1 and 2. If God is 1 an you are 2 with sin added. You are literally in a sense infinitely away from him, and no matter how much you try to close that distance, it won't budge, it's like infinitely dividing a distance by two. Only God can truly make you lose whatever makes you evil. Hell is simply the price to pay for going against perfection. Which is, to permanently be away from it, as you are imperfect, if God just allowed you to waltz in his perfect kingdom, he wouldn't be fair to those who truly did the right thing, instead of sinning constantly. Let me remind you, SIN TO THE LORD IS EQUAL TO SOMETHING OF THE MOST ABHORENT you can think of times a million, as God has no flaw
@@Pettam713 1. You have provided no proof of your god or this alleged sin nonsense. First provide proof such as a billion dollars in my bank account before we start engaging in what-if hypothetical scenarios. 2. Even if you god exists, the morality that it is bound to is not necessarily applicable to human beings. Just like you have no problem accepting the vagaries of many other species that engage in very disturbing to human actions. To impose this hypothetical god morality on humans is silly. I might as well impose veganism on an obligate carnivore species and then, tut tut about how they have "sinned" against me. 3. I don't like your god. I have serious problems with its lack of morality. I do not think it is just to sacrifice a child (even if he were in his 30s) to make a system balance. It is utterly immoral. I also do not approve of animal sacrifice. Serial killers do that kind of stuff. Your god resembles a mass serial killer. That might be acceptable to you because of your morals but it is not acceptable to me. Now go read a book on comparative religions and religions through history and learn about how many gods humanity has made up.
If I was given irrefutable evidence that God and souls were real my only option would be to put everything I had, devote every second of my life to building a machine that could annihilate souls. Hell is physical torment and heaven is psychological torture. Neither is an option.
@@MindShift-Brandon I tried doing a little googling of what heaven is like and what we'd be doing. Very little seems to cite the bible, which does not inspire confidence. And when they do, they're mostly talking about praising God. Needy much?
All they want is for someone to SAY "I believe..." and all the rest. And any time they encounter the former convert, they check up for the person's affirmation "I believe..." All this is, is a desire to control others, not help others, regardless of how they bend those phrases (control, help).... Ugh. christianISTs.
I agree there can be no evidence can be shown that an all knowing, all powerful or all good God exists because we are not all knowing. So the question is pointless imo and it really boils down to people are just picking their god based on their viewpoint.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
Bringing more science fiction into the discussion: I recall the ‘Star Trek: Voyager’ episode ‘Death Wish’ in which a member of the Q Continuum (Quinn) requests asylum on Voyger that in order to be able to die. Q (John DeLancie) is sent to return Quinn to the Continuum. Quinn finds eternal existence to be torment; the Q are very interesting in that they are what most humans would think of as gods: immortal, possessed of powers. One Q in particular delights in messing with humans, testing humans (sound familiar?).
In the bible are human sacrifices as well. Take a look at this quote from the bible: Judges 11:29-40 "29Now the Spirit of Yahweh came upon Jephthah, so that he passed through Gilead and Manasseh; then he passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from Mizpah of Gilead he went on to the sons of Ammon. 30Then Jephthah made a vow to Yahweh and said, “If You will indeed give the sons of Ammon into my hand, 31then it shall be that whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the sons of Ammon, it shall be Yahweh’s, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering.” 32So Jephthah crossed over to the sons of Ammon to fight against them; and Yahweh gave them into his hand. 33And he struck them with a very great slaughter from Aroer to the entrance of Minnith, twenty cities, and as far as Abel-keramim. So the sons of Ammon were subdued before the sons of Israel. 34Then Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah. And behold, his daughter was coming out to meet him with tambourines and with dancing. Now she was his one and only child; besides her he had no son or daughter. 35So it happened that when he saw her, he tore his clothes and said, “Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low, and you are among those who trouble me. But I have opened my mouth to vow to Yahweh, and I cannot take it back.” 36So she said to him, “My father, you have opened your mouth to vow to Yahweh; do to me according to what has gone out from your mouth, since Yahweh has avenged you of your enemies, the sons of Ammon.” 37Then she said to her father, “Let this thing be done for me; let me alone two months, that I may go to the mountains and weep because of my virginity, I and my companions.” 38Then he said, “Go.” So he sent her away for two months; and she went with her companions and wept on the mountains because of her virginity. 39And it happened at the end of two months that she returned to her father, and he did to her according to the vow which he had made; and she did not know a man. Thus it became a custom in Israel, 40that the daughters of Israel went yearly to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in the year." Here to obtain victory in battle Jephthah intends to sacrifice whoever comes to his doors. And he did It was his own daughter. It is also important to note that before he took that vow that the spirit of the biblical God came to him before. --- There are also other parts of human sacrifices take a look at these quotes here: Exodus 22:29-30 "29“You shall not delay the offering from the fullness of your harvest and the juice of your wine vat. The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me. 30And you shall do the same with your oxen and with your sheep. It shall be with its mother seven days; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me." Here it states that the firstborn of the Israelites son shall be given to him. Afterwards he said the same about the firstborn animals too. What happens to the animals given to him? They were sacrificed. But that is not enough so let's get a bit more Information. Exodus 13:1-2 "1Then Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 2“Sanctify to Me every firstborn, the first offspring of every womb among the sons of Israel, both of man and beast; it belongs to Me.”" Here we have another quote which states the same. Now let's take a look at what happens to the things devoted to him. Leviticus 27:28-29 "28‘Nevertheless, anything which a man devotes to Yahweh out of all that he has, of man or animal or of the fields of his own possession, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to Yahweh. 29No one who may have been devoted among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death." Anything devoted to the biblical God out of all he has, of MAN or ANIMAL shall not be sold or redeemed. It shall be surely put to death. That's human sacrifice. But is there another part in the bible which is a bit more specific? Yes, there is take a look at this: Ezekiel 20:25-26 "25And I also gave them statutes that were not good and judgments by which they could not live; 26and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they might know that I am Yahweh.” ’" Here it is stated openly. All their firstborns were passed through the fire. These are human sacrifices. The reason for this in context was for "punishment" but it does not change the fact that they were human sacrifices.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
it's just more of someone telling someone else how they are supposed to feel/think. i also would not follow the god of the bible as written (in whatever version). your version sounds good. on a different note, i commented on Professor Plink's page that he was starting the ACU, (Atheist Cinematic Universe) with his appearance on TheSkepTick's channel, Then Kristi made a cameo on Plink's channel yesterday, now Kristi is in your video today. It's all connected...😀 I like when channels do that, especially ones i already sub to. ive been following Kristi for about 2 months now, she popped up in my suggestions about the same time you did. ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY ALGORITHM !!! or something.
If god is so omni, I'd think he'd either turn up and show his reality beyond doubt, or inspire a book and preachers who could do the same. In other words, it is, in small part at least, a Mike Winger problem.
Why write a book? We're talking about a being infinitely more clever and capable than ourselves. We write books because we have limitations on communication and ability to transmit knowledge. An omniscient and omnipotent being would have a vastly more clever solution that isn't subject to ambiguity, cultural or linguistic shifts, or misrepresentation. It would be SO effective and obvious that NOBODY would dispute its genius and obvious superiority. That the Bible exists at all disproves Christianity, because it's an inferior work that no omnipotent craftsman would think is acceptable.
@@Uryvichk Humans have written (without divine inspiration) more compelling fiction, more accurate history, and more persuasive propaganda than the Bible. So, yep, god's just not that omni.
"Use the force, Harry!" -Gandalf
Damnit thats so good! Wish i would have used that.
@@MindShift-Brandon I didn't think of this myself. I wish I did, but alas...
Awesome conflation!
3 characters in 5 words!
You win today's internet.
"...Do you even know who I am?" --Harry Potter🤓
@@MindShift-Brandon "wish I would have used it"
steal it from him after all that is what the Hebrews did with their neighbors religous myths. Steal it and claim it is yours and it didn't exist before you used it.
1:21 - let's be clear. Winger isn't making a mistake here. He knows his audience and the talking points they'll respond to. Claiming someone doesn't believe based on lack of evidence COULD POTENTIALLY cause the believer to question their own belief. *HOWEVER,* if atheist don't believe because of *heart issues* then the believer DOES NOT have to question their own belief.
My own family keeps using this talking point....and it's been *twenty years* since I deconverted.
Yes its disgusting for sure. How does someone claim to be a christian and care so little about truth.
I don’t think that Mike Winger is just sort of calculatedly or cynically pandering to a specific audience. I think that what he tells his audience is probably what he tells himself in his own mind. He’s the definition of the guy who “drank the Kool-Aid”, so to speak.
@@TestMeatDollSteakI completely agree. Mike is just going into preacher mode, where you explain away the problematic challenges to your faith with the first explanation that satisfies you, and it will probably satisfy your audience as well.
@@MindShift-Brandon There is no such thing as truth or honesty if atheism is true. It doesn't matter.
@@Justas399 - You pretty much just refuted your own claim with the conditional “If atheism *is true….* “
The Moloch example makes so much sense in my opinion, and probably illustrates very well why many atheists would not worship the biblical god even if its existence was demonstrated. Many would only be able to pretend to worship it, but could not help despising what it represents based on what it's supposed to have done in the old testament.
Thanks. I hope the analogy landed. Id love if Winger made a reply but hopefully it can help others to think through it all.
As a Christian I am really interested in this line of thinking. In my view these would be vastly different theologies, and a world in which Moloch was truly God, meaning truth, goodness, love etc., would look very different. First of all, in this hypothetical world, our conscience would already compel us to murder babies, so in that world the idea wouldn't be disgusting to us.
But I have a feeling this isn't what you mean. I think you mean in our world, where goodness is goodness, and there was a god who forced you to worship him, threatening yo with eternity in hell if you didn't, what would you do. Well, in that world I would have the same answer as Brandon. That I hope I would not veer from my faith in goodness, truth and love (God) and submit to this evil creature. Because in that world Moloch is not God, but a creature.
@@hateyouifyoukillme : can't speak for all atheists of course, but starting from a position of not believing in any god, the definition of goodness is completely independant from any concept of god.
Being demonstrated that a god exists probably wouldn't change how I define goodness, that would be the reason for me to despise the biblical god even if I knew for sure it existed.
Only the fear of going to hell may motivate me to pretend to worship god, but then again, if I can't help despising it because of what it would have done, I would be doomed anyway, unless I can force myself to change my definition of what is good, which would probably as difficult as forcing myself to believe the Earth to be flat.
Hope this clarifies things a bit.
@@hateyouifyoukillme As an ex-Pentecostal there's many things I could rhetort to that but I don't want to get lost in the weeds. I can only say that part of my long journey out has been recognizing the fact that morality is by its nature subjective to human goodness. When I search for moral behavior and coherent ethics I had to turn to secular paths to find it.
@@hateyouifyoukillme _"...our conscience would already compel us to murder babies..."_
You only think that not sacrificing babies is fine, because your conscience is seared, your heart is hardened and you love the world more than you love the one true god.
Or something along that line. That's what the faithful Molochists would say.
At least, that's what many faithful Christians say when faced with ideas of morality they reject.
There's a huge difference between OBEYING a god to avoid torture, and LOVING that same god. If the biblical stories about it are true, then a moral person would be UNABLE to love it. And if the claims about its omniscience are true, PRETENDING to love it would be futile. As Christians so often like to say in defending their absurd concept of free will, "God will not force anyone to love him." But based on their view of hell, their god would have no problem torturing someone who is unable to love the monster that he is.
Jesus says as one of his two greatest commandments to love God with all your heart.
That to me shows you *have* to love God in order to be accepted by him.
@@johnedelmann6711 Then only immoral people would be accepted by him. I don't know about you, but I could not love a genocidal egomaniac.
We have no choice to sin because of what Adam and Eve did. It’s funny how the most common Christian response to why we need Jesus is because we have fallen so much and how sinful we are. So much for free will when we were given no choice but the be sinful beings
@@Theleaver5088 Yes. Christians fail to recognize just how absurd their claims are.
"But you SEND YOURSELF to hell. Because you didn't get your theology just right, out of all competing claims out there. Sorry, God's hands are tied."
- Most Christians
If the Abrahamic god as described in the bible was 'proved' to exist, not only would I not worship it, I would feel morally compelled to do my best to kill it..
Ha! Well theres a new answer
Easy there, bucko, that's Will Parry's job ;P
Great quest idea! I'm in!
That sounds like Hitchens, and I've used it.
It's a tyrannical monster, even given the wishy-washy treatment they claim that the NT gives him/it.
The NT treatment only makes it more of a mad god that should be taken down in any D&D campaign or anime or movie series.
I came to the same conclusion
Years ago I had a discussion with a Christian where I criticized God's lack of morality and fairness. When he couldn't use logic and reason to beat my argument he pulled out what he considered to be his trump card and stated: "it is fair because God says it's fair."
At that point I just walked away because I didn't feel like I could have a rational conversation with that person anymore. It's still blows my mind how Christians can call their God good and loving. I've said it once and I'll say it again: Yahweh would not make it to Heaven by his own standards.
EVIL PSYCHO YWH THE BABY, PREGNANT WOMAN, ANIAML GENOCIDER
STONER OF WOMAN, CHILDREN'
PEDO
SLAVERER
. OH YES WHAT MORALS.
THESE EVIL FREAKS ARE BRAIINWASHED AN LIKE IT
TOOK ME 1 30 MIN VIDO ABOUT EVIL YWH BOOK OF CONTRADICTIONS TO BAIL THIS TRASH
I HAD NO IDEA ABOUT THE REST OF THE EVIL
THE EVIL IS BEYOND WORDS.
THESE PEOPLE ARE EVIL FREAKS.
Then go ahead and restate your point. Give an example.
@@nicholastrudeau7581 on the subject of fairness I didn't think that it's fair for God to punish the human race for the wrongdoing of two people. Then you also have to take an account animal suffering. Animals had no say in what happened in the garden of eden. But they were punished right along with us.
@@Shinobi2075 that wrongdoing is called sin. God hates sin and cannot stand to be near it, so out of Mercy's sake, He stepped away from it, but as a result natural disasters, storms, disease, war, crime, and ultimately death became reality for all life on this planet. Would you rather have had him end all life?
What exactly is fair? And who is the ultimate determinant of it? That wrongdoing is called sin. God hates sin, so he stepped away from the universe, and as a result natural disasters, storms, disease, war, crime, and ultimately death took over.
You and I are no different from Adam and Eve. When given the opportunity, we will eventually sin.
Who determines what is fair? What makes that person the decider?
@@nicholastrudeau7581 The subject of sin. This thing that is passed down from parent to child. Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, and that is how the cycle began. Sin is passed on to each new generation. Sin contaminated the world. But something to keep in mind here is this: if sin works that way, it's because God engineered it to work that way. If things went bad in the world, as far as things in nature went, then its because God made it to work that way. Again, what about animal suffering? They had no say in this. Why are they made to suffer along with us if an all powerful (and supposedly good) God could prevent it?
God can't stand sin? What does that even mean? Is God sitting there on his throne seething in anger, grinding his teeth, with his eyes turning red? Is he stomping his feet every time somebody tells a small little lie or steals a cookie from the cookie jar? I guess so because it seems like he got awfully bent out of shape over a piece of fruit. Is God standing there doubled over in pain because somebody sins? Is he pulling his hair out? Is it hurting god? Because what it sounds like is that God simply can't stand anything or anyone that doesn't agree with him. And I say that because supposedly the God of the Bible will send you to Hell for even the smallest offenses.
I don't believe God exists, at least not the god of the Bible. If there really was an all-powerful, all knowing being who was so far above and beyond us I don't believe it would waste its time creating humans to begin with. So I just want to state that off the bat. What would it have to gain from doing so? Why would it need to create us? If I can find it in my heart to forgive my neighbor who has trespassed against me, and if I can find it in my heart to do so without my neighbor even asking me, then why can't God who is so far beyond me and above me do the same? I don't require someone that has wronged me to suffer eternally if they don't ask for my forgiveness. In fact a lot of times when you forgive somebody you're not doing it just for them, you do it for yourself so you can move on. And I certainly wouldn't ask somebody to give me a sacrifice to appease me.
Would I rather have had him end all life?
Well considering our world, perhaps it would have been better to not allow Adam and Eve to procreate. Or better yet, perhaps it would have been better for him to not go through with creation to begin with. He knew how this was going to turn out, but went ahead with it anyway. He knew that most of his children would be going to Hell, and only a few would actually make it to Heaven.
And as for Adam and Eve and us being just like them, I don't think that's a good argument. I mean instead of creating Adam and Eve, who God knew would fail him, why didn't he create Tom and Jane who he knew ahead of time would live up to his standards? Is it because that wouldn't be free will?So Adam and Eve didn't have free will before eating the fruit? They have to sin in order to have free will? Does God sin, and if not does that mean he does not have free will? I've heard Christians say that if God only created humans who didn't sin it would be robbing of them of their free will. And that all of us humans would have done exactly the same as Adam and Eve. But isn't that kind of the same thing just at the opposite end of the spectrum? I mean if you said that 50%, 30%, or even 1% of humans would have lived up to God's demands then don't they deserve to be given the chance to do so? Wouldn't that be worth it to actually create a successful group of children?
I'm sorry but if you're going to say that all humans would have done as Adam and Eve did (sooner or later) then that means there was something wrong with the way we were created. There was something faulty with us to begin with.
I'm looking at this as a parent myself. I was told that God loves us immensely, even more so than our biological earthly parents. But at the same time, this loving father of ours will send us to Hell if we don't “get right with him”. I certainly wouldn't burn my own child in a pool of gasoline because they did something that offended me. But according to Christianity, God does worse than this to his own children. At least the pool of gasoline will eventually burn out. Hell doesn't.
Assuming Christianity is true, are the people that are in Hell now sorry that they are there? I'm sure they are. So why can't this loving God let them out and give them another chance? I bet they'd be the most upstanding Christians you ever met. Forget going to church on Sunday, they'd go seven days a week if you let them. Tithe 10-15% of your income? Nah, they'd sign over their entire paychecks every week and just happily live on the streets and eat out of garbage cans. They'd be model Christians I bet, because they'd be too terrified not to be out of fear of going back to Hell. And this is what God wants us to be: upstanding children. Maybe he should send everyone there, a sort of mandatory tour of Hell. And a Christian might say: “The people in Hell wouldn't change anyway.”
And to that I would say: “Hell must not be that bad then.”
I don't believe our sense of morality and fairness comes from God, it comes from us. We get it from our own empathy, and we also get it because well we've learned a society what works best for our species. It took a lot of trial and error but what we have as morals today is something that we got from learning what is best for us as a society. As for God I suppose I would judge him like I would judge any leader or authority figure. Does this leader practice what he preaches? Does he set a good example? If the leader of our country commanded genocide of men women and children in another country after it invading that country we would undoubtedly see him as a monster. If one of your parents committed murder and the judge sentenced him or her to life from prison or gave them the death penalty You probably wouldn't think it was very fair if the judge also decided to lump not only you but your children and your grandchildren into the sentencing as well because of something your parent did. You might be sitting there asking: “How does this make sense? I had nothing to do with this. It wasn't my fault.”
I'm sorry but I don't think the story works. If I was going to believe in God, I'd be more inclined to believe in something like Deism, where God isn't personal with us. Or maybe God isn't even aware of us. Maybe God isn't a person, maybe God is more of a thing. But the idea that God is some being that loves and cares about us immensely doesn't hold up. Me becoming a parent showed me this. Punish my child because of something he did wrong? Sure. But the punishment would fit the offense. I would never put my child in something as horrific as Hell for eternity. As a parent if I can see past defects of my own child and love him anyway despite the shortcomings then its a bit puzzling why God that can't do the same for us. It doesn't say to me he's very loving and fair if he has to punish his children for eternity. It doesn't speak to me of a god that is kind benevolent, loving, forgiving, etc. It points to a God that's petty, vengeful, jealous, and possessing some of the worst traits of humanity.
You hit the nail on the head. Christians are motivated way more about avoiding hell than they are about going to heaven. I know this because I used to be that same way when I was a believer.
As a child in the Southern Baptist Chruch you were scared with the threat of hell not the love of god and being in heaven.
Pretty broad generalization given how many christians and types of churches there are.
In my neck of the theist woods we knew fear of hell was baby faith, the very beginning of the journey and not even a good reason to stay growing in faith.
Broad brushing like that is every bit as intellectually reductive as theists who think we are all miserable morally unrestrained criminals without god.
@@outermarker5801The human fear of death and wanting eternal life have been the majority of religious I've known. Some also seem addicted to a superiority complex, no evidence needed. I'd agree with your assessment that the fear of hell, isn't the predominant motivation to believe. I've also known highly intelligent religious and nonreligious.
@@outermarker5801 Well it is a reason many kids get into the faith. Then they are chained in that propaganda.
@@ericreed4535 Yeah. When I left long ago I had gotten to the point of just loving god and longing for a better life after this one. Not just for me, that's more baby faith selfishness. But moreso all those suffering in the world around me.
It's that looking beyond myself that really opened up the floodgates of questions. None of the usual trite theist defensive arguments about 'free will' etc held water any more.
Still don't.
The only way I would worship the Christian God is if he showed up and explained that everything men have written about him is inaccurate.
Yes exactly. If God came back and actually was all knowing, all loving, and all forgiving. Sure I'm down with that. However the bible claims that nature for God, and then describes God behaving completely opposite of that.
I would even be more accepting of a completely neutral god, which better explains why evil exists. God is neutral and doesn't pick a side. Evil is just another of its creations. Why be bias? That would at least make logical sense because it would align with what we observe in life.
100%. Something like the God that you describing actually would make far more sense. ie maybe this God has some good and wonderful aspects, but ultimately it is somewhat indifferent towards routine human affairs.
I think this was one of your best videos. Your thought experiments at the end were all fantastic. Also, Kristi Burke has become one of my absolute favorite atheist content creators in a very short span of time, her stuff is great.
Thanks Matt! Appreciate that and yes Kristi is wonderful!
She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
I once gave a theoretical to a group of mostly Christians (about 100 people)...I said "What if you died, and went to heaven, and instead of the god you think you know, there was Lucifer, sitting on a throne of light, and he said "Everything you were taught was false, I am the true God of humanity, a God of Light, Love, and Peace. I will gladly accept you into my heavenly realm, if only you will denounce the wicked god, and follow me." I asked, how many of them would accept what he said? Not a single one raised their hand. I said "You'd think it was a lie, a trick, right?"
I said, "Exactly. So, even if I die and go to a 'heaven' and find the biblical god there, I still wouldn't believe or follow him. I would wait for a true cosmic deity to save me, and accept my suffering in the meantime."
This, of course, was in response to hearing the old line "Every knee will bow, every tongue confess." To which I was saying, "Even in the most extreme of circumstances, I won't. And as I proved, neither would you."
Woah, this actually blew my mind, never thought of it that way. Really strong, I will remember this argument for the next discussion!
I've asked people something similar: What if accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior was a trick that actually SENDS you to hell, rather than saving you? What if the real God just wanted to test you, to see how easily you would accept something that sounds good on the surface, but does not have sufficient evidence to back it up?
Of course they just wave it away like it's nothing. They themselves couldn't possibly be deceived, apparently.
@@mattr.1887 This is an argument I like to use against Pascal's Wager because it's basically the same flawed logic. "What if God is real, but he is a god that values critical thinking and will send you to hell for believing in a deity without evidence and accept you into heaven for recognizing the lack of evidence? Then you might as well be an atheist because you avoid hell whether this god is real or not." Of course this is a false dichotomy but that's the point, this is why Pascal's Wager doesn't work.
To be brutally honest, spending Eternity in heaven is the scariest option. Even if I'm not forced to worship someone that I would actually resent and despise, Eternity is a pretty long time and I'd eventually become so bored I'd be begging to end it all. Besides, I'm a terrible liar and I couldn't keep up the pretense of pretending to love someone so despicable and abhorrent to me. Still, if I thought I could get away with it, I'd pretend for a bit, take a look around heaven and see if there's anything interesting to do and as soon as there's not, whip out some Black Sabbath or something...
Ha! Even if heaven was amazing. Infinity is too long to do anything.
Or some Highway to Hell from AC/DC lol
You could be the worlds greatest liar and it shouldn't matter: God is all knowing. So even if at that instant you said that you agreed to worship him, with him being all knowing he would know for certain not only that you will eventually cease worshipping him, he would know the exact time in the future that this would happen. He knew it before he asked you the question, before you existed, before he ever created the heavens and the earth. If god is and always was eternal with no beginning and no end then he knew it for a literal eternity before he ever asked you to worship him.
@@edthompson2099 Why risk going to hell just cause you didn't test if you could get out on the technicality of not expressing your disbelief? If you aren't absolutely certain that your inner beliefs matter more than your expressed ones I'd still give it my best shot at faking it, knowing that he knows I'm faking it. I'd be the biggest suck-up ever if that'll help. At least in heaven I'm not distracted by suffering and can start to plot my own rise to enough divine power that my mind will tolerate eternity haha.
Lol!
Tbh, the one person on here who said christians are more motivated to avoid hell was spot on for me. Theres a huge difference from duty vs compassion. I did all the things i did that would be considered good because i felt like i HAD to do them, not because i wanted to or had the compassion to help others, but because i felt like if i didnt do them, i would be sinning. And i dont even think i did it to make God happy, i did it to escape hell. Everything was to get into heaven, never because I loved God. Now i dont really know what to do anymore.
This is very common and honestly an expected result when the god of the universe puts a gun to your head. Its just one of the many reasons this doesnt work for me at all.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
Morning, all! Hope you enjoy. Might be a bit slow getting to comments right away but will yet today!
Very much agree with your closing statement.
Even when I considered myself a "Christian" I had real problems with Yahweh, the Sky Daddy Bossgod.
He is too parochial, grumpy and selfish as depicted in the Bible.
The Jesus Story and the concept of the Holy Spirit had more appeal, as they tied into a syncretism as I was into the "Perennial Philosophy", and comparative mythology and religion.
The deity you described was pretty much what I envisioned, and if such a one manifested Themself to me with irrefutable evidence, They would be a lot easier to follow than Old Grumpypants of the Old Testament.
Yes if a god existed that we all imagined as kids, maybe there would be hope but even Jesus was disgusting after really understanding the NT. Thanks for watching!
@@jacliveshere
And yet Yahweh allowed his chosen people to suffer captivity in the OT and genocide in the mid 20th century, while smiting the innocent and punishing souls way in excess of what their temporal sins deserved.
Screw Him.
@@MindShift-Brandon
Yeah I tended to block out the not so nice stuff in the NT to avoid cognitive dissonance lol
@@jacliveshere
That's awful. 😞😞
Sorry to here that.
I don't recognise anything from my readings of the NT that would advocate making anyone suffer like that.
But then I didn't come from a particularly religious background.
Just typical Church of England, attend church for hatches, matches and dispatches only sort of thing.
I still believed in the God of the Bible when I decided I didn't want to worship him or have anything to do with religion. As a JW though, we didn't have a hell fire to fear, just destruction at Armageddon. So I imagine choosing just to die and no longer exist is a bit easier than if you have the fear of eternal torment.
Yes thats a good point. Hell is such a big part of christianity!
Absolutely but that’s why they like hell because it makes it harder to question things
@@yoeyyoey8937primal fear manipulation
Really I'd prefer Eternal Pleasure over anything else.
Honestly I would prefer being tortured forever as opposed to nonexistence. Vanishing into nothingness is way more terrifying imo.
FUCK YEAH, I'm going to Gandolf's magic school!
Even if YHVH were real and people followed him, his atrocities make him hard to love.
Im a follower of Jesus and liked and subscribed to this channel, as I believe as Christians we need to face all the questions raised here. Have an awesome day guys! 😊
Cheers
Follower? On instagram then.
Good on you Lance! I did the same thing...began questioning everything.
You mean you follow Paul. ;)
@@samael5782 anything in the bible is fiction anyway. With love from Rome.
Powerful argument as always. I too would reject a genocidal maniac
Thanks, Peter!
I've been thinking that you and Kristi Burke should work together on something, because you both are so on top of it with your content! I love this synchronous moment. 🤗
Ha! Thank you for that!
That's a great idea. 👍
@@MindShift-BrandonHi Brandon. I only just discovered your channel today courtesy of Prophet Of Zod. I'm just going through a binge session on your back collection. So far it's fantastic. 😊👍
Yea you guys should do call in show together like The Atheist Experience does . Maybe just from other perspectives or style
I really like that idea
I know this is an old saying, but "actions speak louder than words" seems to apply here. It doesn't matter how often the religious claim their god is love and loves you, if the bible is a true assessment of his character then god is a monster
Absolutely!
Yes but the wording of the bible keeps all the Christian apologist employed. They are fun to watch when they do their song and dance.
That’s why Jesus said the Old Testament was basically wrong but Christians still follow it because it’s expedient
*Very* important issue here. The Christian viewpoint seems to be that the existence alone of God should merit worship. I've seen comments elsewhere that said, "You owe your Creator worship." (To me you could make a good argument for the opposite, actually.) But that just lays bare the true might makes right nature of the religion. Because it is 100% based on that. God Himself tells as much to Job, and Paul reiterates the same sentiments in Romans. Hell is the #1 selling point for conversion. Because it doesn't matter how objectionable you may find the Bible to be if the party in question has the power to torture you unimaginably forever. But it's like they don't want to recognize the fundamental wrongness of the very setup. Great video; very important. :)
Thank you! Yes, you said it well here. What would this all be without a threat of hell?
@@MindShift-BrandonSomething which is both of hilarious and infuriating is when Christians then proceed to insist that Hell isn't a Threat.
"It's a Choice! God won't force you to go to Heaven, you have the option of eternal torment instead!"
yes, that one just kills me!
I'd be interested for you to expound on the first statement in parentheses.
@@jaschabull2365 What I meant was, I disagree with people who would say that a Creator is owed worship simply for the fact of creation. If your Maker made you to exist with only 2 options: worship me or burn eternally - then to me it is not an unreasonable response to resent the position that that Maker has put you in.
That last part was powerful.
Thanks for watching and the feedback!
Too powerful
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
Excellent points and well stated. I particularly liked your challenge to Mike Winger regarding Molech.
Thank you. Thats very kind. I would love if he replied but I’m doubtful ha.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
Love the Harry/Gandalf example!!! You hit a really deep desire inside of me. I too really want there to be a firmament that keeps me safe from all harm. I want a God that is moral and believable, and I want Christ to be all that is claimed. But it make NO sense! And reading the Bible only exponentially increases the nonsense. Great video Brandon, and I actually found you and Kristi Burke the very same day.
Thank you so much!
Assuming, in this make believe scenario, that it’s the Christian “Omni-god”, I would think that god would know how I REALLY felt. That I couldn’t say, “Oh, ok…you’re real so yes, I’ll follow and worship you” without that god knowing that I think it’s a narcissistic bully who condones rape, slavery, genocide, etc. and that I detest it. I’ll sub to Kristi, thank you.
Thanks for watching. Youll love her!
I like how the paragraph makes that last sentence sound like you're choosing subbing to Kristi as an alternative to worshipping YHWH.
@@joelpartee594 can I worship Kristi and defriend yahweh?
Nothing says a God is a narcissistic bully quite like that God giving you the choice on whether or not to worship him and you ignoring that God still has to those individuals who were killed in a genocide after death because after all only those who were killed in genocides are the only ones who ever die. It’s not like we all will die some day. Oh yeah, that’s not the case.
It’s not like it’s proven that there is nothing more to one’s existence beyond this life. Oh yeah, it hasn’t.
After all it’s proven that those who were given certain trials to deal with in this life would automatically be given those same conditions after this life, like being enslaved, or that it’s proven that those who were slave owners would not be held accountable for how they treated those slaves. Oh yeah, it hasn’t.
It’s not like God wanted his chosen people to be just like everybody else where they can run amok with having institutions such as having slavery or having a king without any conditions attached. Oh yeah, that’s not the case.
But that’s because God didn’t want his chosen people to have the freedom to make decisions for themselves on whether or not to follow God because God just makes people worship regardless. That’s why you never hear of any cases of people breaking any of God’s commandments. After all, God is such a bully. Oh yeah, that’s not the case.
So, what are you talking about?
Exactly, and yet no Christian who's tried to convert me has ever acknowledged this.
If God was real, the only reason to follow him is fear. The threat of punishment is probably what keeps the faith going
There's also the "warm fuzziests" (my term for them) - the ones that only hear the nice, fluffy, happy, comfortable, convenient sentiments in christianity and refuse to listen to the rest of it!
@@tulpas93 Believing (having faith) is not about warm fuzzies or fear, it's about knowing (admitting) our sinful condition and accepting the free gift of God, his forgiveness, Grace and Mercy. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
We are born again believers because we know and love the truth, Jesus Christ/God.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
You can call Jesus Christ/God a liar if you choose to do so. The truth will never go away. he is alive and well. One day every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
@paulgemme6056 So cute!
when you're ready, Recovering from Religion (non profit & non prophet) is there for you and anyone else you know who frees themselves from the ills of dogma.
Good health to you! ♥️
@@tulpas93 There is eternal life - knowing God/Jesus Christ, the free gift of God for those who believe (have faith) the truth (Jesus Christ). The truth will never die, as much as you hate him (for telling the truth) he will never die. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing.
Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
@paulgemme6056 You don't get it. I'm not shopping for mythologies, and if I was, I certainly wouldn't opt for such a morally bankrupt, blood-sacrifice fueled, religion with its abusive, meglomaniacal, immature, insecure deity.
I'd choose something worthy of respect, someone fierce and clever, like Oðinn.
Thanks for commenting here and thereby promoting this channel and spreading the reach of its message! Keep it up!
Thank you for this video. As a child I was very critical of God and Jesus but of course I did not at all doubt their existence then. When in my early teenage years I expressed my thoughts about Jesus, I was told that my thoughts were blasphemous and I was warned that if I expressed those thoughts again, I would go to hell. Of course as a child I feared hell. But now I am one of those stupid atheists who would rather go to hell. Yes physical torment for eternity is horrendous but the thought of one minute in heaven fills me with extreme psychological and mental anguish. I could not endure an eternity in heaven.
My pleasure. So sorry to hear about your childhood. So many of us were right there with you.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
Sorry that I'm 5 months late, Brandon your final thoughts part in the video is spot on. That's exactly how I feel. I too wish for that kind of god, I too would follow him in a second.
thanks so much for being here!
This was a powerfully salient one, thanks for the thought-provoking points today man
My pleasure. Glad you enjoyed!
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
THIS IS THE BEST VIDEO I HAVE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE!! You nailed it my friend! WELL SAID!!! Im so glad that I discovered you & your channel and this awesome video! I am sending it to many people that I know! Once again-WELL SAID & great job!! Thank you! ❤❤
That is very kind. Thank you so much! Glad to have you here
That's an interesting connundrum, that a lot of people - even the engaged atheists, and much less the "faithful" - haven't really considered: what does it mean for God to be "real"? MindShift here has understood it. That's quite rare.
Once - years back now - I proposed the following question/though experiment in a Christian forum's discussion about morality and its origin: "If the Nazi racial ideology was true, and the Jews were indeed a subhuman species intend on destroying the superiour human races... would killing them be immoral?"
Not surprisingly, I didn't receive any meaningful responses to that question. Instead, I got accusations of being anti-semitic, a Nazi, a monster... and then the post was removed for some unspecified infraction of the rules.
I see a similar problem here. A lot of Christian theology, dogma, doctrines, morals appear counterintuitive to us. Immoral even... or outright evil.
But if all this was shown to be "true"... the correct approach, the correct solutions... would not following them not be "wrong"? Immoral?
So, for me, I have to say: yes, if Christianity was shown to be "true", I would follow Jesus.
But it isn't. Mike Winger might call that a "heart" problem... but he ignores the problem that it is the evidence to change my "heart" that is lacking in this case.
Apologists of his type (and they all are, more or less) just find it easier to attack the integrity of their opponents that to "defend their faith". As if by showing that the opposite may not be perfect, your own inane ideas must be correct by default.
You hit on so many interesting concepts here. Thanks for taking the time to get this all out. Love good philosophy and thought experiments like these.
@@MindShift-Brandon It's similar to your example of Moloch being shown as the "true god".
But I would disagree with the second point that "You would follow him, becaus he's god, _and might makes right_ ".
This expression does have a negative connotation, and it does not fit here. He would just be "right", period. By nature, by existence. He's right, you're wrong. And you would understand and accept that... and not just submit to his superiour power and authority.
That's the gist of my point: if this system was right, and I was shown that... I would accept that.
That's different from: "I might not accept that the system is right, but I will go along with it because it can force me."
And that is the reason (here, in this case) why I reject Christianity (or theism in general): it has not shown that it is right, and, as you pointed out, it is (or appears to be) too inconsistent and self-contracting to ever do that.
That's the reason why I tell every Christian preacher and apologist that I engage with: "I am willing to listen. I am willing to be shown wrong. DO SO!"
And that is why I am still an atheist, after all these decades: no one has ever been able to do that. Many haven't even tried. Many have tried in the same old failing ways. Some - very few - did try... and still failed.
@revilo178 I might disagree that _nothing_ can be objectively right, but there are some things/concepts that are not and can indeed not be. I'd say that "morality" is one of these. And that would indeed invalidate the existence of a deity as creator or with "objective morality".
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
I got so excited when I saw Kristi on here!
Again, You nailed it! Thank you ❤
Shes so great. And thank you!
Please continue to do more Winger . I find it really helpful
Good to hear and theres no shortage of material lol so im sure i will. Thanks!
I think I found your channel and Kristie's on the same week. I really enjoy both channels.
For me, worshipping the god of the Bible for all of eternity would be torture. I agree that it would be a difficult choice between heaven and hell, but for me it would be choosing what kind of torture I would have for all of eternity.
Yes good point.
Yes it hypothetically it would be eternal happiness right? No matter what it looked like ?
@@yoeyyoey8937 Eternal happiness would suck! First: Why? Why is happiness the only feeling we will have in heaven? Are other emotions bad? Second: How? Does God force people to feel happy? Are we "free" to feel other emotions? If we are, then it just takes one person at one moment to not feel happy in order for the claim of "eternal happiness" to be untrue. 3. Who? Who are we if we can't experience other emotions? Can we remember the other emotions? We here on earth have many different emotions and those are a big part of who we are, if we aren't able to continue to feel those emotions, are we still ourselves? Fourth: What? What kind of God is the god of the Bible? What does it say about him since he only allows happiness in his presence? Does he allow freewill in his presence?
I was forced to feel happy as a child and it sucked! It sucked so much I wanted to kill myself. If I would be forced to feel happy for all of eternity and would literally prefer to be burned alive for all of eternity.
I love that hypothetical tbh, I think it really can show the picture if their mind is able to conceptualize it and be honest. When asked that, they’re gonna have to think about why child sacrifice would be wrong
"With the pure You will show Yourself pure; And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd" (Psalm 18)
I agree with you 99%. Except that I don't want to have a "heavenly father" =D Those apologists disgust me so much! "If you don't want to believe in my god -- you're evil and a sinner". Yeah, right. Ugh. They play and rewind the same old tape, as if never having heard our opinion -- it's irritating. No, we do have higher moral standards, that's the problem with yahweh. Thank a god, he cannot exist as described in the bible.
So well put! When I believed I felt like I was trying to understand a god and morality that honestly felt wrong and immoral. What kept me in were the statements like His ways are higher than our ways, doubt your doubts not god, and of course- hell. I came to this as an adult with little true understanding, just the god is love and the joy of being part of a family. I was relieved to find I didn’t have to accept a genocide ordering, people judging slave apologist creature anymore as the evidence and my study ramped up. Very well put
Love your videos.....please keep up making great videos 🙂
Thank you! Will do!
I am so happy I found you! this is my first stop at this page, and I can't wait to catch up with your videos.
Welcome! Excited to have you here. Hope you find some things that you enjoy!
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
Thank you for supporting kristie. That woman is a gold mine.
Indeed she is
Don't worry. The biblical god isn't going to come down and stand in front of anyone. The biblical god is a fictional character. He walked with Adam but by the time of Moses no one could look at him without dying. Now we are supposed to see him when we look at trees and kittens. He served his purpose during the genocide of the Amalakites. He now persists only in the words of the books.
For sure. Just playing in hypotheticals
@@MindShift-Brandon Your hypothetical at the end would be far too overwhelming for poor old Mike. Exposing himself to wrestling with it in front of his audience would be career suicide for him.
- This was so well put, especially at 9:57. You echoed my emotions. "If only . . . "
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
When I first realized that I was an atheist, I still wanted the Big Daddy in the Sky. He would be perfectly moral and benevolent. He would watch over me and carry me over the rough patches. Now, I find the idea abhorrent. The only thing that gives me the feeling of autonomy and identity, I would have to sacrifice for the equivalent of a mind numbing drug and a baby's pacifier.
Its a great point. I go back and forth with if i want a god to exist. I think if god could really be all the things hes supposed to be, it could be something amazing. Its just hard to imagine
@@MindShift-Brandon If the god of the bible is real. Then he is amusing himself and keeping himself from being lonely by watching his "ant farm" of humans. When I was a kid I had an "ant farm" and they are fun to watch.
@@MindShift-Brandon The only version I find compelling is a god that is not omnipotent but within that frame of lots of power and benevolent intentions does the best he can.
I don't get why christian people are so obsessed about omnipotence being literal.
If they weren't their faith would be coherent, god is bound by some laws of the universe that are natural phenomenon like we atheists believe the universe to be anyway. No problem anymore.
Apart from evidence of course.
Yes wouldnt that be a compelling god. Powerful and trying his hardest. Really having to sacrifice for us etc.
Being an atheist is kinda the same as being religious though. You just adopted a different belief system that you feel comfortable with
Great discussion.
For me the hypothetical proves the unworthiness of the Abrahamic God (as you point out)
If my only reason for following is fear then that God is no more powerful than a mob boss or a dictator. Of course I would choose not to suffer. But the fact that God would be satisfied with my coerced worship proves that gods unworthiness.
Well said!!
Imagine spending eternity together with all those Mike Winger characters. THAT is frightening if anything.
Indeed!
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
Well thought-out and compelling, I'm subscribing.
Thank you, David! Welcome to the family.
What I basically keep hearing is, Believe or burn.
There's your "choice".
As a kid, I always equated heaven to church.
I hated going to church.
I don't see heaven as any better than hell, because it's choosing one form of torture over another.
Since we don't have a physical body and once we die our brains go along with us so we don't have a mind... What exactly is "experiencing" Either heaven or hell?
Does god just simply want obedient little minions no matter what?
The minions don't have be willing or convinced. God just wants them lined up in a row ready to go.
Sing praises or commit genocide. Whatever it demands.
🙄
It's like you have a serial killer, who wants to have a little minion around on a leash.
The little minion has to constantly be assuring the god and assuaging the god and sweet talking to God, otherwise it gets cranky and starts genociding...
I don't get it.
I never have.
❤ Thanks for another great video.l
Great points! It really is like this and its so ridiculous
@@MindShift-Brandon
The atheist saying that even if God is real we wouldn't worship it, is Christians cue to misinterpret.
For me, thing that if the god is real I won't worship it, is like saying even if the three-cornered, moss covered, family credenza is real, I'll still think it's ugly and I won't want it in my house.
Yeah, it's exists.
I still won't have it in my house. I still think it's ugly.
Your sales pitch isn't going to change that.
❤️
YESSSSS!!!
Hopefully, y'all will do a video together!?
If y'all have...
I hope so!
@@MindShift-Brandon, me too!!
Excellent points. Couldn't have argued better myself. Again I have to recommend Stargate SG1, because these issues end up in the last couple of seasons. Are gods to be followed because they can threaten us with suffering? Or can we actually demand more of gods than just raw power.
Agreed. If faced with absolute, undeniable proof that God is real and I had one last chance to choose to follow him or face eternal torture in Hell, I hope I would have the fortitude to refuse on the basis of him being unjust and not worthy of my praise and submission. However, to be 100% truthful, I really don't know what I would do in the moment. Fear is a great motivator. Which is one of the problems I have with God. An omni-benevolent and just god wouldn't threaten people into submission. If God truly wants me to believe in him and doesn't want me to go to Hell (despite the very concept of Hell being ridiculous in such a situation), he would do everything he can to prevent me from going there. Things like appearing to me in person and being like "Hey, I'm real. Please believe in me and follow my commandments. I don't want you to go to Hell."
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
For believers everything comes back to sin and a fallen world. God gets to take a pass on virtually everything bad...everything is because of Adam and Eve. Thousands of years of injustices and tragedies and calamities and all because of one incident at one point in time by two people. That is not just. That is not loving. That certainly isn't moral.
If this all-powerful God exists, there's one thing he cannot do. He cannot make us love him.
Damn bro you are spot on! One of the best videos i have ever seen you have a new subscriber!
oh wow. I appreciate that so much! welcome!
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
This is great. The first time anyone has put my thoughts/feelings on this into words.
Glad to do so! Thanks for watching.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
From what I’ve seen, Mike would respond by reaffirming that you’re lying about your position. He (and most apologists) can’t allow himself to believe that there are nonresistant nonbelievers.
If his particular god exists, then your position can’t exist. It’s amazing to listen to them when they lay it out, and it’s a big part of why they can’t communicate effectively with non-Christians.
Yes. He showcased this well in his divine hiddenness response. Its baffling!
Yoooo! I love and watch kristi!! Do you watch her other videos? Also are there atheist creators you are open to collaborating with? Is she one of them? I love all of your videos btw
Yes i watch all her stuff. Shes amazing. I do hope to collab with her sometime soon and yes very open to working with lots of others! Thank you for being here.
The issue as I see it Brandon is that we the west have not allowed east religions or the 'observations of nature' into serious western thought. Abraham religions have a choke hold on the west which should be dealt with and break free. Exposing the evidentiary facts like Mindshift and Christie Burke and many others do is a good thing. 'Blessed be' to Mindshift and Christie Burke's work.
Oh, I love and look forward to new vids on this channel! About Mike, you know Brandon, I am in near daily contact with religious people who buy into Might Makes Right, and I can see the distinction you make and agree, I would go along out of Compulsion, but not out of love, but out of terror.
Agree Hitch was spitting into the wind, being a captive is probably better than being tortured without end. Mike mixes worship with revulsion. "See, evidence is not an issue," he seems to say, b/c if god is real, Boy you better get in line! And I can agree with that, pretty much like letting the Bully have his way, unless you want to be the next victim.
Thanks so much for this. Mixing worship with revulsion…well put!
I don't worship *everything* that I know is real. "Reality", by its existence, does not require worship. If the Christian God were real, my worship would *still* depend on its behavior.
Exactly. Why is that so hard for the believer to understand.
"If there is a god, he will have to beg my forgiveness." - scratched onto a wall at the Mauthausen Concentration Camp, Austria.
I think this sums up the situation nicely.
indeed.
wow that's intense
You make some great points in this video, thanks. I have also had my own issues with Yahweh and the worship of him. When I was about eight or nine I came to the conclusion that God was pretty creepy as he required blood sacrifice of animals. And the instructions to remove various areas of visceral fat and burn them because Yahweh enjoyed the smell. Upon actually reading the Bible when in my teens, I came across verses that pointed to human sacrifice as well, see judges 11: 29 -40 and others. I also had the feeling that no god should need or require worship if God is and has everything,. Why does a god that is pure spirit and has made everything need blood sacrifice, not just animals and humans, but his own son? Surely he could've come up with a better plan. I haven't really changed my thoughts much on Christianity from when I was a little kid. I knew it was vile then, and that has not changed.
Jealous you figured it all out so early! I agree with all those issues and a billion more.
Yea that is creepy. We are eating Jesus’ flesh and blood and pretending it’s not cannibalism, or that regular “sacrifice” isn’t totally a pagan concept that humans have been doing since time immemorial
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
Thanks for the video!
No worries!
I love how you put things succinctly. I have seen many atheist videos but I don't recall anything singling out this point and explain it so plainly. In the past atheists always assumed what you said because it seems obvious, but you are the first one to spell it out.
And yes christian all powerful God makes no sense. If he's all powerful, why would he need anything from you? You can't add or subtract from him.
When I command my kids to do something it's for their own good. There's nothing that they can give to me since I'm the source of everything that they have. They brush their teeth for their own good, they make the bed for their own good, it would be easier for me to do their chores then it is to make them do chores.
Really appreciate that! And love the kid example.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
I've thought about an argument just like your Moloch thing for years now. Lol
This idea is interesting because I never thought about it. But if the Christian god were real, I would not follow him unless, of course, all the stories were false.
What I would do is say, "Well, if god is real, then Satan must be real too. Is Satan actually the good guy in all this." It would actually make me research to follow Satan instead.
Love this channel and Kristi Burke!
Shes great! Thanks for supporting each of us
Nitpicking; 66 fairytales is fair, but mine had 73 fairytales. And I know some bibles go over 80.
Ha. Indeed!
ALL OF THIS. Excellent video. Well done.
Thank you very much!
I already don’t believe in this religion because naturalistic explanations for the origin of the universe are more parsimonious than supernatural ones, but odious teachings such as that of Hell make me not want to believe either. It is a shame, because I’d probably be happy as a Christian if the teachings weren’t so monstrous.
Just watching this - what a great response to Winger. I'll have to go digging to see if he ever acknowledged this question.
I'd be happy not worshipping, but follow and communicating with a god who was not perfect and not all powerful, but powerful enough and good enough. I wouldn't demand perfection just as I don't demand perfection of my fellow humans or myself. The problem is when people claim God is perfect and all powerful (doesn't match the world we live in) or even worse, say that their god is perfect, but describe a deeply immoral god.
Where would we be without our creator God who is the Phallus in Deuteronomy 32.18 as the"rock that begat thee." Remember where Jacob erects the Hermes stone and anoints it with oil (semen). El/Al is the phalllus of the Ram (Aries) the god of Israel. Israel is two words of Isra/Ysra/Asra (phallus) and El (Ram God).
Would be great to see somebody cover the challenge that Dr. James Tour put forward on his channel this morning. How to create life from non-life. It pertains to the topic of creation... hence the possibility of a God... So it's worth a studious look at the challenge.
Thanks for sharing
This topic is pretty much how I would explain why I'm not a Christian. I'm not sure how I can have an earnest relationship with a god, or really anyone, who says "love me or you will suffer." My only reason to do so would be out of fear, which fittingly describes my experience with Christianity. Also, if I can't help but question the integrity of this god, how can I even trust that it will keep its promises?
Perfectly put. Everything that could be lovely about this god is null immediately when hell gets put on the table.
Well they would say that you are choosing your own suffering, but that is still God holding a gun to your head pretty much, and then victim blaming after the fact.
I do think we choose our own suffer, but it has nothing to do with an external place called “hell”
I've heard from one of my college professors that at least some Muslims actually don't think that they can be sure the promises made to them will be kept, and that they very well might wake up after dying and be told, "Psyche! I'm damning all Muslims and saving everyone else!" and that would be perfectly in his right, because who could possibly hold an all-powerful, omnipotent being to a promise they made?
(I've never heard that directly from an actual Muslim, so that may well be taken with a grain of salt).
Gods way of creating a perfect world:
(…)
To create the universe
Wait Billions of years
Create a man out of mud and a woman out of that man
Tell them not to do something that you know they’re gonna do
And then threaten them with death
And then, when they do it, not kill them, just make their life difficult
Then go through a comedy of errors of having people fail to love you or
listen to you or obey you over and over
Flood the world - start over again
Confuse their languages in order to try to start over again,
Encourage war
Gradually go from walking and talking with them to not interacting in any detectable way
And then magically impregnate a young girl so that you can take human form
As a sort of god man that’s fully god but fully man - which doesn’t actually make sense
So that you can sacrifice yourself to yourself as a blood magic loophole
For rules you’re in charge off so you can set aside your own anger because
that’s the thing that we’re being saved from - it’s God’s wrath its just that it’s declared to be justice
Then expect future generations to believe without sufficient evidence.
M. Dillahunty
I'm one of those who would not obey god. You summed it up nicely as to why I would not. I'm not sure of the existence of any god(s), but I sure would have nothing to do with the "biblical god".
choosing between heaven and hell is like choosing between jail and inquisition torture dungeon. one is not good, it's just degrees of badness
Yes exactly. Lol thats a great comparison
Great video !
As usual an excellent video.
I find that Christian fundamentalists generally loath hypotheticals when hypotheticals are used in discussions about their beliefs. It's hypocritical, given that they would find hypotheticals quite reasonable otherwise.
If God were to present himself to me then I would worship him, simply because I would not want to be tortured for eternity for failing to do so. But gee, I would struggle to make the worship earnest, because I'd also be thinking of all those people God killed. So he would detect this reticence in me and detect my faking it. So I'd still end up in hell.
lol yes these are always the issues with this question or pascals wager. Is god so foolish, he doesnt see the self preservation side. Maybe he doesnt care, just needs that us to smash that like button over and over
@@MindShift-Brandon Romans 9 seems to imply that it isn't really an oversight and that God just sometimes (or I guess a lot of the time, considering how few people Christians claim will ultimately be saved) sets people up to fail just because he wants to.
That passage really makes it hard to see the Christian philosophy as ultimately being that might is right (at least in the case of absolutes).
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
Your last words are exactly how I feel. ❤ My heart was broken to start with. I'm still struggling at times because i wasn't afraid of hell, I loved God, something that wasnt even real but I'm free after a lifetime of believing with all my heart that there was a loving god. I know better now, and if, He the God of the Bible came down and he is in fact responsible or even sat back and let his creation suffee since the beginning until now, i dont need him nor would I serve him. Ive seen so many kind and loving people suffer greatly, and I will never understand how he could have done nothing!!!! Nah, im good.
Thank you for this very important information! 😊
Actually, I somewhat agree that it is a heart issue. I know in my heart that slavery and genocide etc. are wrong and cannot continue to excuse them. That's an issue of my heart.
your heart pumps blood - nothing else
So freaking good! Cmon Mike, reply!
Thank you! And lets hope.
This is the biggest issue I always have I'm not against a loving God never have been never will be its just every time i picked up the bible open to a random passage id read some absurd awful shit!!
God is LOVE also torments people forever... UMM WHAT?
Yup! This is it.
I would ask Mike:
If Jesus and Muhammad showed up and Jesus said, "Muhammad is right. I'm just a prophet of Allah like others were," would Mike give up Christianity and embrace Islam?
belief and worship are indeed two different questions and i agree with your assessment and ethical evaluation except for your 'final thoughts' section. however the consequences of this hypothetical game, if yahweh or his christian version 'revealed himself' with the pseudo-dilemma of heaven-hell makes for a cute game for children because it is so ridiculous that is commensurate to the sauron beast of lord of the rings. how can one take these fables seriously ?!
Yes i mean its all in the hypothetical but youre right. Its so absurd its hard to take seriously
I met Jesus when I was working doing landscaping. We became close friends, and he thought me many things that made me wiser, and a better person. unfortunately he was called back home to assist his father…in Guatemala.
I'd choose Hell. Why? Because this god is evil if he has an "eternal hell". I can't trust this god to create a good heaven.
Heaven would be a hell. It's a choice between hell by fire or hell by whatever unknown torture exists in heaven. This is a very wicked creature and it lies. So what? I get the momentary relief of getting away with a lie to an omniscient egotistical Homelander? That's scary. I'd never know when Homelander would decide to torture me.
I think Hell would be a one and done. At some point, you'll get used to the pain. I don't think I'd get used to pretending and hoping that Homelander won't violently dismember me and say "I knew you were lying. I wanted to draw it out."
*Homelander - the character from the Amazon show "The Boys"
First off, sin is imperfection is the utmost WORST to perfection. God's standards are NOT our standards, what we would consider a 'white lie' that's tiny and innocent. God equates it to something akin to S.A to a child, though, he likely hates the latter more than the former,. Sinning Once, is ETERNALLY going against literal perfection, as you are now infinitely away from what it is. Think of it like 1 and 2. If God is 1 an you are 2 with sin added. You are literally in a sense infinitely away from him, and no matter how much you try to close that distance, it won't budge, it's like infinitely dividing a distance by two. Only God can truly make you lose whatever makes you evil.
Hell is simply the price to pay for going against perfection. Which is, to permanently be away from it, as you are imperfect, if God just allowed you to waltz in his perfect kingdom, he wouldn't be fair to those who truly did the right thing, instead of sinning constantly. Let me remind you, SIN TO THE LORD IS EQUAL TO SOMETHING OF THE MOST ABHORENT you can think of times a million, as God has no flaw
@@Pettam713 1. You have provided no proof of your god or this alleged sin nonsense. First provide proof such as a billion dollars in my bank account before we start engaging in what-if hypothetical scenarios.
2. Even if you god exists, the morality that it is bound to is not necessarily applicable to human beings. Just like you have no problem accepting the vagaries of many other species that engage in very disturbing to human actions. To impose this hypothetical god morality on humans is silly. I might as well impose veganism on an obligate carnivore species and then, tut tut about how they have "sinned" against me.
3. I don't like your god. I have serious problems with its lack of morality. I do not think it is just to sacrifice a child (even if he were in his 30s) to make a system balance. It is utterly immoral. I also do not approve of animal sacrifice. Serial killers do that kind of stuff. Your god resembles a mass serial killer. That might be acceptable to you because of your morals but it is not acceptable to me.
Now go read a book on comparative religions and religions through history and learn about how many gods humanity has made up.
Perfectly said! My thoughts exactly!
Thanks so much
If I was given irrefutable evidence that God and souls were real my only option would be to put everything I had, devote every second of my life to building a machine that could annihilate souls. Hell is physical torment and heaven is psychological torture. Neither is an option.
well said
@@MindShift-Brandon I tried doing a little googling of what heaven is like and what we'd be doing. Very little seems to cite the bible, which does not inspire confidence. And when they do, they're mostly talking about praising God. Needy much?
Thanks!
Thats very kind. Thank you!
All they want is for someone to SAY "I believe..." and all the rest. And any time they encounter the former convert, they check up for the person's affirmation "I believe..."
All this is, is a desire to control others, not help others, regardless of how they bend those phrases (control, help)....
Ugh. christianISTs.
Just subscribed. Well deserved
Thank you much. Welcome to the family!
This is so great! So many good points made here! Also - I just realized I need to email you back! I'll be in touch.
Hey Kristi! These people in the comments love you. Thanks for all your great work. looking forward to it!
I agree there can be no evidence can be shown that an all knowing, all powerful or all good God exists because we are not all knowing. So the question is pointless imo and it really boils down to people are just picking their god based on their viewpoint.
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
Bringing more science fiction into the discussion: I recall the ‘Star Trek: Voyager’ episode ‘Death Wish’ in which a member of the Q Continuum (Quinn) requests asylum on Voyger that in order to be able to die. Q (John DeLancie) is sent to return Quinn to the Continuum.
Quinn finds eternal existence to be torment; the Q are very interesting in that they are what most humans would think of as gods: immortal, possessed of powers. One Q in particular delights in messing with humans, testing humans (sound familiar?).
In the bible are human sacrifices as well. Take a look at this quote from the bible:
Judges 11:29-40
"29Now the Spirit of Yahweh came upon Jephthah, so that he passed through Gilead and Manasseh; then he passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from Mizpah of Gilead he went on to the sons of Ammon. 30Then Jephthah made a vow to Yahweh and said, “If You will indeed give the sons of Ammon into my hand, 31then it shall be that whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the sons of Ammon, it shall be Yahweh’s, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering.” 32So Jephthah crossed over to the sons of Ammon to fight against them; and Yahweh gave them into his hand. 33And he struck them with a very great slaughter from Aroer to the entrance of Minnith, twenty cities, and as far as Abel-keramim. So the sons of Ammon were subdued before the sons of Israel.
34Then Jephthah came to his house at Mizpah. And behold, his daughter was coming out to meet him with tambourines and with dancing. Now she was his one and only child; besides her he had no son or daughter. 35So it happened that when he saw her, he tore his clothes and said, “Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low, and you are among those who trouble me. But I have opened my mouth to vow to Yahweh, and I cannot take it back.” 36So she said to him, “My father, you have opened your mouth to vow to Yahweh; do to me according to what has gone out from your mouth, since Yahweh has avenged you of your enemies, the sons of Ammon.” 37Then she said to her father, “Let this thing be done for me; let me alone two months, that I may go to the mountains and weep because of my virginity, I and my companions.” 38Then he said, “Go.” So he sent her away for two months; and she went with her companions and wept on the mountains because of her virginity. 39And it happened at the end of two months that she returned to her father, and he did to her according to the vow which he had made; and she did not know a man. Thus it became a custom in Israel, 40that the daughters of Israel went yearly to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in the year."
Here to obtain victory in battle Jephthah intends to sacrifice whoever comes to his doors. And he did It was his own daughter. It is also important to note that before he took that vow that the spirit of the biblical God came to him before.
---
There are also other parts of human sacrifices take a look at these quotes here:
Exodus 22:29-30
"29“You shall not delay the offering from the fullness of your harvest and the juice of your wine vat. The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me. 30And you shall do the same with your oxen and with your sheep. It shall be with its mother seven days; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me."
Here it states that the firstborn of the Israelites son shall be given to him. Afterwards he said the same about the firstborn animals too. What happens to the animals given to him? They were sacrificed. But that is not enough so let's get a bit more Information.
Exodus 13:1-2
"1Then Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 2“Sanctify to Me every firstborn, the first offspring of every womb among the sons of Israel, both of man and beast; it belongs to Me.”"
Here we have another quote which states the same. Now let's take a look at what happens to the things devoted to him.
Leviticus 27:28-29
"28‘Nevertheless, anything which a man devotes to Yahweh out of all that he has, of man or animal or of the fields of his own possession, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to Yahweh. 29No one who may have been devoted among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death."
Anything devoted to the biblical God out of all he has, of MAN or ANIMAL shall not be sold or redeemed. It shall be surely put to death. That's human sacrifice. But is there another part in the bible which is a bit more specific? Yes, there is take a look at this:
Ezekiel 20:25-26
"25And I also gave them statutes that were not good and judgments by which they could not live; 26and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they might know that I am Yahweh.” ’"
Here it is stated openly. All their firstborns were passed through the fire. These are human sacrifices. The reason for this in context was for "punishment" but it does not change the fact that they were human sacrifices.
Yup! 100%. Worse than molech!
My Heart pumps blood. I don’t know what else to say !!🤣😎🙃
Yes Christy Burke is freaking awesome❤
You are lying to yourself If you really believe what you are saying you wood kill yourself ! But you chose to stay alive so you are a liar ! this world is evil you dont love your father probably .She sell t shirt and many items against believers this is the reason why she is making video her religion is kristy money and her god is hazard her bible is evolution and her pope is darwin she is the priest who make money you have been scam ! ! I really dont understand why it is so hard to believe the human condition ! Every day we kill a vegetable a animal a fruit an innocent just to be alive . God is asking the same thing for your soul but it have to come from him and pure like Jesus otherwise it is an abomination !
it's just more of someone telling someone else how they are supposed to feel/think. i also would not follow the god of the bible as written (in whatever version). your version sounds good.
on a different note, i commented on Professor Plink's page that he was starting the ACU, (Atheist Cinematic Universe) with his appearance on TheSkepTick's channel, Then Kristi made a cameo on Plink's channel yesterday, now Kristi is in your video today. It's all connected...😀 I like when channels do that, especially ones i already sub to. ive been following Kristi for about 2 months now, she popped up in my suggestions about the same time you did. ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY ALGORITHM !!! or something.
Lol for sure. Ill be excited to start doing some collabs of my own soon. Doing the harmonic atheist in the next couple weeks!
If god is so omni, I'd think he'd either turn up and show his reality beyond doubt, or inspire a book and preachers who could do the same. In other words, it is, in small part at least, a Mike Winger problem.
Right. Ive done my part. Gods not here. Cant keep making excuses for him forever.
Why write a book? We're talking about a being infinitely more clever and capable than ourselves. We write books because we have limitations on communication and ability to transmit knowledge. An omniscient and omnipotent being would have a vastly more clever solution that isn't subject to ambiguity, cultural or linguistic shifts, or misrepresentation. It would be SO effective and obvious that NOBODY would dispute its genius and obvious superiority. That the Bible exists at all disproves Christianity, because it's an inferior work that no omnipotent craftsman would think is acceptable.
Yup! Such a great point.
@@Uryvichk Humans have written (without divine inspiration) more compelling fiction, more accurate history, and more persuasive propaganda than the Bible. So, yep, god's just not that omni.