Hey all, I really wanted to get this video out there as a base for moving forward on the channel. I am shocked daily at how misunderstood or misrepresented Atheism is. Hope this helps!
To me, it feels like theists very often are willfully ignorant, or even blatantly lying, about what atheism really is. Nothing you say will ever change that. For them, truly understanding atheism might very well be the first step in the realization of how absurd their theology really is. It did work like that for me 45 years ago. These christians don't want that. They want to keep the ridiculous fantasy alive, at all costs. They are willing to sacrifice their integrity to do so.
@@jacliveshere Yes, denial is an important religious tool. It is sabotage and poisoning of the mind, with the goal to prevent it to perceive objective reality, by inducing fear and promising false rewards.
@@MindShift-Brandon "the guy that forgives it"--- “one who despairs despises My mercy, making his sin to be greater than mercy and goodness… See, therefore, that this sin alone leads him to hell… Despair is that sin which is pardoned neither here nor hereafter, and it is because despair displeases Me so much that I wish them to hope in My mercy at the point of death, even if their life have been disordered and wicked. This is why during their life I use this sweet ruse with them, making them hope greatly in My mercy, for when, having fed themselves with this hope, they arrive at death, they are not so inclined to abandon it, on account of the severe condemnation they receive, as if they had not so nourished themselves... for when the worm of conscience sleeps no longer, but is gnawing you, the devils shout and render to you the reward which they are accustomed to give their servants, that is to say, confusion and condemnation; they wish to bring you to despair” (St. Catherine of Siena “Dialogue: 31. Of the death of sinners” c.1370 AD) "to the crooked You show Yourself shrewd" (Psalm 18) "In hope, the Church prays for all men to be saved" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1821)
Can I say as an atheist, it would horrify me if it turns out that Christianity is true. So they're right about that. What they get wrong is the reason. I don't have a deep desire to sin. I do have a problem with a God who sets up a system where billions of lives have to endure eternal torture.
It's creepy and disturbing; little different from some horrible or "evil" god you might see in a movie or a Lovecraft story. Just an unstoppable powerful figure who demands blood and suffering for their own mysterious or sadistic purposes. God literally "smells" the burning flesh of an animal sacrifice in the old hebrew books, and it pleases him. "Is slavery ok? Is murder ok? etc etc"; so many believers will simply answer "if god says so, then yes". Well who speaks for God? The high priests? Sick and disturbing, a slave religion.
I'm a new atheist, who used to be a fundamentalist Christian, and I think a big reason why Christians make claims like "you were never saved" is because they are afraid of people like you and me. They might have thoughts like "could I be wrong?" Or "do they know something that I don't?" And I know from personal experience, that questioning your beliefs is scary, but I am glad I did it.
Glad for you my man, and yes its a defense mechanism for sure in my opinion. Cant bear to see that someone just like them was capable of losing their faith. And I really understand that for them.
@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 Didn't Jesus say to not judge lest you be judged? How about that rather lengthy lecture about separating the sheep from the goats, with him closing with "what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me"? For someone who claims to be of a religion of love, you sure seem to do nothing but hate.
"why isn't God held accountable for anything?" God takes the full responsibility, at the end he judges evil righteously and pardons those who have put their trust in him.
if billions of people are burning in hell at the end just for never knowing this god that made them and placed them in a time or place where they could not know him, how is that taking full responsibility. This is one of thousands of issues where I dont see god taking a lick of responsibility. If I abandon my kids at birth, I am not taking responsibility by coming back at the very end for a torture session.
@@MindShift-Brandon " just for never knowing this god that made them and placed them in a time or place where they could not know him" God has given everyone the same knowledge of him through the creation and conscience so people are without excuse, the problem is that people suppress this knowledge of God. (romans 1)
quoting more scripture does not help. The leap to general revelation is a ridiculous one. Theres never been one account of an unreached people group knowing about Yahweh or Jesus or his sacrifice or their sin etc before being contacted. Without that knowledge you cannot be saved if you really want to go according to the bible.
The idea that hating god means that you believe he exists wouldn’t be so laughable if christians didn’t have an endless line of fictional characters they’ve raged against. Harry Potter, Buzz Lightyear, mermaids, super heroes … every week they’re mad about a new fictional character 🤦♂️
To Clay Jones, I say, when I lost my faith I did NOT want to. My goal was to get closer to Jesus. My main motivation was a concern that the modern church didn't seem very Christlike. I had myself open to a constant spirit of prayer, I studied the Bible in a way I never had before (prior to this I had just read it, and justified the parts I didn't like) including studying its history and how we got the Bible we have today. The problem was studying the Bible showed it to be a man-made book. But I still had Jesus, and I would still remain open to his voice in a constant state of listening for him. The problem was I wasn't hearing anything, and I was concerned that what I was doing was following my own mortal conscience. As I lost stance after stance on issue after issue, eventually my faith that Jesus saved me and loved me and that God was real was all I had left, and I was terrified that I didn't even have that! I prayed several times a day for a long time, begging God to calm my heart and give me the piece of his spirit, and please do so in a way I can know is real, and not just me. Bupkus. And I still didn't immediately become an atheist. I was terrified to admit that to myself. I didn't WANT to be an atheist. But eventually I had to be honest. And once, I was, it was like a weight off my shoulders.
When you said that you feel lucky, I imploded... The amount of gratitude I felt, simply knowing my mind is free from all this bs that 90% believes... It's just amazing
I was an "old atheist." I was a late comer to the Internet. Then, I discovered that I was a "new atheist." There was no difference in the arguments, there was no difference in the attitudes, there was no difference in the deconversion stories. All there was that made a difference was a new technology called social media. It made it possible for people sheltered from atheist thought to hear what atheism is without the filter of mass media, religious indoctrination, and social stigma.
But there are HUGE differences. Consider the atheism of Stirner, of Feuerbach, of Nietzsche, of Camus, and compare that to... Dawkins... The previous line was very philosophically motivated, creative and understood the symbolic nature of things. Their rejection of God was profound and knoweldgeable. Dawkins does not even understand theism and his rejection is unphilosophical, shallow and quite mediocre.
I agree @jwhite91! I dig Brandon's approach. While I, admittedly, have not come to the place where I disbelieve in the existence of God, I am certainly at the place where I can no longer believe what I've been told and Brandon is saying, out loud, some of the stuff that crowds my brain!
You are a breath of fresh air Sir. Very few can express their point of view the way you have shown. You tackle the many issues I feel Christians generally ignore or stifle. Keep up the great work, I’ll continue to tune in and share. Thank you.
Well... the problem with that is that if no one tells you that there is punishment for rejecting God then you will just cry that no one "warned" you. The reason the appeal to intellect comes first is because it is better that you see to reason. If you cannot see to reason then at least behave under threat of punishment. The laws of all governments work the same way. They first appeal to your "intellect" and if that does not work they also fall back on the threat of torture. You seem to be okay with governments doing it but not God? Double standard hold any meaning to you?
" threat of torture" --- "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father, but there is one that accuseth you..." (John 5) "For whereas wickedness is fearful, it is because it bears witness to its own self-condemnation: for a troubled conscience always forecasts grievous things. For fear is nothing else but a yielding up of the confidence of thought... an ignorance of that cause which brings the torment... which is their own soul failing them: so that a sudden and unlooked for fear comes upon them...and they become to themselves more grievous than the darkness" (Wisdom 17)
"If this is the best God can do I'm not impressed. These are the kinds of results you expect from an office temp with a bad attitude." George Carlin Great video with really well formulated point. I was never really a believer and I live in a very atheistic society but I can still relate to most of it.
Truth seeker here too. I totally respect you and your journey. Mine has been similar. Brought up in a fundamental cult -jw. Then after reading the new testament left for fundamental mainstream christianity. Still somethings didn't add up to me. Sin being one. Animals die when did they sin - in fact I realized everything is not perfect or last forever. The whole concept started to unravel when I looked at other mythologies. I love your approach and your absolute sincerity. Love and light from the u.k. 👋
Julie! what a wonderful comment. Thank you for sharing and for the great compliments and encouragement! So happy you, too have found the truth. Cant even imagine having to do it twice as you did, but that seems a common path for JW. Appreciate you being here!
@20:24 "If You're reading Harry Potter and you don't like Voldemort..." I didn't hate Voldemort. I hated Dolores Umbridge. I've never wanted to beat up a fictional character so badly.
voldemort in my opinion, or tom riddle i think was done dirty in his childhood yknow unable to feel any sense of love and all so i dont hate him that much. dolores umbridge has no excuses in my eyes though.
I grew up in a fundamentalist Baptist background, and like you, believed it wholeheartedly for a little over 30 years. After I left the religion, it took me about another 10 years or so to come fully to the realization that I was an atheist. I can honestly say that it wasn't about "hating God" or "wanting to sin". It was the realization that it just doesn't make sense, and that the world doesn't work the way that the bible/Christianity (or any other religion) says it does. What you probably will find, though, is that the longer you're away from theism, the less the opinions of theists about atheists matters.
I’m thankful for your help, Man! I’ve been leaning agnostic even after “mission trips”, schools, countless debates and experiences with divine healing and tongues leading into fundamentalism. I had an agnostic friend talk about how freewill is just an illusion and I started doing the “Waking up” course with Sam Harris, two weeks in and I was at the most peace I could have imagined. No judgement, no striving, just peace. I realized… I was just brainwashed. You’ve been a help. Thank you. I’d like to talk to somebody if you or if you know someone that would help. Or anyone in the comment section of course. Just to share stories and experiences.
Brandon, I really like your honesty at the end about the things you miss about Christianity. I relate to a lot of it especially being very close with my parents and siblings who are heavily involved in church still. Very relatable, thank you!
12:30 ish - love this car metaphor because with a little fine tuning it shows how little their answer is worth. if an engineer asks "how was this engine made?" the answer "uhh... my book says Ford" is not an answer given by someone worth asking.
Atheism also takes away your option for doing something bad (bad for society as opposed "sinful") and using your invisible friend as an excuse. Being an atheist means you accept your own responsibility for your actions, like an adult.
I didn’t travel the same route. However, I managed to reach the same journey’s end. Thank you for such an eloquent, clear and definitive description. I will never understand why “the righteous” can’t accept even the most reasoned denial of their magical thinking without ultimately threatening judgement because we are “wicked.” The religious gaslighting is immediately tedious and seriously pathological.
Still here for now! There will hopefully come a time, i cant get to everyone, but im trying my best as i really appreciate each of you helping to build this. Thanks for the encouragement!
I've been told to watch apologists by Christian friends. I suspected something was up when most apologists and their description of non-believers were not close at all to my experiences.
Brandon, I so admire how you are able to keep from losing it!!!! Keep up your intellectual integrity. You are an amazing person. I am very grateful for having found you.
I found it interesting that you miss having something to worship. I’ve asked many believers why they need a god and the best I could surmise, is that it’s like an addiction of sorts. It’s fascinating to see what draws people to gods and why they are so passionate to protect that belief. It’s a tangible loss when you give up your belief, but to me, it’s more of an awakening. I don’t need this thing anymore. I can see it for what it is now. It controlled me, but now I’m free. Tell me that doesn’t sound like coming off an addiction, lol. Thanks for sharing. Your content is enjoyed and appreciated.
Thank you. The concept of it as an addiction is interesting. I would not have thought of it like that. I still dont know if worship was the right word. But it was a loss of something potentially perfect. Some end goal. Idk. Still working on that one. Appreciate you sharing.
"... something to worship." Hitchens (I seem to recall) came up with "numinous": something greater than us, that leads us to a state of awe. For me, it is like looking up into the sky, realizing that there is nothing (except air and empty space) between myself and the rest of the universe, and grappling with the concept of infinity.
@@MindShift-Brandon This reminds me of what I told my kids when they were young. Find something that gives you clarity, focus, something to push against, you will be happier. Perhaps 'push against' is a analogous to faith in your regard? Losing your faith caused you to lose focus and purpose, you had nothing to push against.
@@MindShift-Brandon I think ‘old atheism’ still suffered from some, historically understandable but misplaced respect for religion. ‘New atheism’ does not conform to that misplaced respect anymore. Someone like Kent Hovind has been telling the same lies for some 20 years now. He has been corrected probably a thousand times. But zero change. I don’t think those kind of theists deserve our respect. And there are many.
thats a great point of clarification and i agree completely. Its a refusal to acknowledge the religion for anything that it claims and only off what it has produced.
@@MindShift-Brandon This also demonstrates that theists like KH are not interested in debating the arguments. So why should we? In those cases I rather point out the lies, the dishonesty, the bigotry and the grifting. Especially considering the fact that religion and religious dogma are a source of suffering for millions of people every day.
it's funny that all apologists have is wordplay, and in the end the wordplay isn't why they believe, WLC didn't start being a Christian because of the Kalam
The apologists say you hate god when they reveal their hatred of you when they seem to relish the thought of you burning in hell. Not very christian. Greatly appreciate you trying to answer all comments.
This is the first video ive seen of yours. It sums up my thoughts and views almost perfectly. And spoken more concisely and articulately than i ever coukd. Thanks
15:26 the question is = "Isn't the goal for both sides Truth?" --- Let's be honest, the Goal for most god believers is NOT Truth. Their goal is one thing = to keep the belief in their god alive at ANY cost, even if it goes against the Facts, Logic, and Common Sense. Many even admit that no amount of evidence would change their mind about their god. Carl Sagan had a great quote about this -- “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves - that we've been (taken.) so credulous. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back. (So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new bamboozles rise.)” - Carl Sagan (in other words, when someone is “In Too Deep” they no longer care about the truth. Instead, they care more about keeping that lie/belief alive)
great point and great quote. i was trying to find common ground. I think for most christians at some point truth was important, and through either indoctrination, personal experience, or confirmation bias etc they believed that truth to be Jesus, after that I can very much see what you are saying.
@@MindShift-Brandon -- "indoctrination, personal experience, or confirmation bias etc they believed that truth to be Jesus," -- And that is one of the main problems with belief in gods. Once someone thinks they "Know" the answer to everything, that being "god did it!", they stop searching for ANY other answers, including the real ones. The first reply to this thread is an example of that. According to him, he's found the "Truth", so why search for anything else. That just shows how NOTHING has set Mankind back more than belief in gods. Sad... but True.
So they have room to blame either the atheist for being irrational, or the evangelist for doing a poor presentation. Shockingly, no room to falsify the possibility at all. And, somewhat like Lucy, I grew up. So no talking lions for me.
As a deconverted Christian, I'm still recovering 10 years later. And I absolutely miss the sense of warmth and purpose I felt like I had when I was a Christian. But unfortunately my eyes were opened to the truth of the whole thing and I have to find happiness inside myself. Having been raised in a family that didn't appreciate my individuality it's taken a lot of time to get over it.
My experience as well. I just cannot deal with ridiculous word puzzles. It always comes down to a "heads I win, tales you loose," trap they've attempted to maneuver you into. As if you've never been played before. They're the clever ones aren't they?
Your channel is going To be huge! You are so articulate and clear. I love these videos so much, it is personally helping me heal from my religious trauma and baggage, and I take notes! Just in case I’m confronted, You make some good arguments and they’re so easy to back up when I can look in the Bible and read passages to Confirm an issue. I really related to when you said you miss worshipping a god, I have that same longing sometimes and it’s a real grief to have lost that. I have started to create more ritual in my day to day just to help with needing some sacredness. I also find nature helpful, not Worshipping but taking it in in wonder and marveling at its beauty. Thank you so much!
Hey Montana! Always love seeing you here. Thank you so much for this! I am really heartened to hear that they are personally helpful to you. And yes nature has helped replace that awe for me also. I like the idea and concept of ritual too, i think its innate, thus why religions are so popular, but i should try to incorporate more of that in my own life too. Thanks for sharing!
Unfortunately, this is one of the fruits of the Protestant rebellion. It has resulted in so much confusion and division. This is why we need the Magisterium of the Church.
What’s frustrating to me is that I’ve had to become knowledgeable in philosophy, biology, cosmology, etc., to try & answer all the questions theists throw out. And all they need is “god did it” and “If YOU can’t explain it then I win because, god”. They can’t prove their god exists. The “proof” in the words of their holy book, is riddled with ridiculousness and verifiable untruths. Yet to them, god “creating” everything from nothing…totally believable. So frustrating!
When they fall back on "god did it" I usually respond with "which god? Odin? Zeus? Brahma?". They then narrow their answer down to the god of the Bible and Christianity. At that point I ignore the issues of how the universe began, how life began, etc and ask them for their evidence of the resurrection of Christ. So far, they have not presented any.
It may have been illegal, but there was one moment I witnessed that really stood out to me. I was at the university I was attending at the time, and I was stuck in one of those "debates" with a theist. This was back before I had any knowledge or practice on how to handle them (not that I have much now, but at least it is some). I kept getting that "God did it," "mysterious ways," and all the other versions of that BS. It was infuriating, and I was straining to not explode over it, which I guess the theist saw and was exploiting. Then someone from the audience that had gathered (this was in the public speaking area of the campus center) stepped up to us, and without any warning, clocked the theist across the face with the nastiest haymaker I had ever seen anyone throw. Everyone heard the bone crunch, and we all saw the blood fly from the theist's nose as he just dropped. Somehow, the theist stayed conscious, to which the audience member leaned over him and said, in the thickest Southern accent I had ever heard, "God's will, buddy. Might want to try figuring out that mysterious way." I have not, do not, and will never condone such an action... but wow, was that cathartic. His action effectively diffused my anger. I have no idea what happened to that member, as he left immediately after he did that; I do remember a slight and brief increase in police presence in the wake of that, but I never learned if it was because of that member, let alone if the member was arrested or whatever. The last thing I remember from that day was telling that theist as he picked himself back up, "Now you know how stupid your 'argument' is, that it can cause a violent response from who would fit the stereotype of your believers. Even Jesus denounced the Pharisees, and the whole time, you acted like one." Yeah, I know, not the best closer I or anyone could have said, and it is not as though theists are ever taught introspection, so I have no doubt that the theist turned that into a "persecution" story. Still, seeing that theist get shut up (or down, whichever you prefer) in such an epic way really helped me. Of course, I still have never taken such action myself, but knowing that there are others, in all walks of life, that are as tired of that BS as you and I are does give me just a little bit of hope in humanity.
Yeah, the newest one seems to be if you are a decent human you must believe in God, otherwise you are living a lie and are living contradictory your beliefs. Sigh
I say this with all appreciation for everything you say in these videos. I find myself listening g to your channel more than almost anything else these days. 🙏🏼🙏🏼 Disbeneficial isn't a word. Detrimental is. Beautifulness isn't a word (from a different video). Beauty is the right word. It's nitpicking, but given how incredibly knowledgeable you are, I'd think it best to remove flubs like this, and remove the possibility for any disingenuous attempts to desperately invalidate your rationale by nitpicking over crap like this, and distracting from the weakness of the opposing argument. Thank you for your awesome channel! Glad to see the growth.
In regards to video 4 around minute 18. The logic that Christians use can also be applied against them. They can be told that they know that the Koran is true and Allah exists but that they hate him and don't want to accept the truth. That their disbelief in the Koran is never based on intellectual grounds but on their pridefulness and that they will be held accountable at judgement.
this is a wonderful point, and one that doesnt get as much attention. You can take almost any christian rebuttal and then just use Islam or Hinduism to put them in the same boat as the atheist. But the response is always the same, they and they alone know the one true real god and religion. so frustrating!
God has demonstrated that he is the Lord of life and death by rising Jesus from the dead. (The quran which doesn't based on eyewitness accounts and is written 600 years after denies this)
@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 The NT claims that Jesus rose from the dead. Claims of resurrection were not unique stories in the ancient world. Also the gospels are accounts written 35-40+ years after the death of Jesus. The people that wrote them were not eyewitness and were likely written to make theological points rather than record history. It is likely that Jesus claimed to be a prophet, gathered a following, and was crucified when he caused social unrest that threatened roman authority in the region. That fact that Jesus made false prophecies shows that he was not from god, and if he was not from god and was just some dude he didn't resurrect.
@@MindShift-Brandon It really is frustrating. I kept my temper in check with the clip from clay jones but oh boy what terrible ideology. I have found that a lot of religions use the same arguments. Islam and Christianity for example, on prayer. I read a forum where a muslim was asking why Allah wasn't answering his prayers. He was told that his prayers might not be in accordance to Allah's will. Or that he was being told no or to wait for Allah's timing. Sounds familiar.
@@BluStarGalaxy So because your opinion is that the gospels aren't eyewitness accounts then I should believe a book written by one man in a cave 600 years after Jesus. 🤣🤣🤣
I would disagree to some extent. Do I hate Darth Sidious? No. Do I dislike him? Kinda yeah. You can dislike fictional characters even though you know they aren't real. Hate is a strong word and I can't see myself hating something I don't think is real but I 100% see myself strongly disliking that thing.
Mentally strong and very knowledgeable, great communicator, completely unbiased and having a clarity on this topic I’ve never seen before. Great job. Still hard for me to accept.
That is maybe the best compliment i have ever gotten. Im curious, what is hard for you to accept? Also, going iff your last comment, feel free to share as much as youd like
@mindshiftskeptic well the compliment was well deserved! That’s why I thought it out. Yeah that might be the longest comment on TH-cam ever... I’ll def write something up soon. Prob will post it in a few days. To answer your question though, it’s hard for me to accept that there is no God, and when I say God I mean the Judeo-Christian God. And I’ll explain why in the write-up. That being said it’s hard to accept it too haha. Like I said, on the fence and always having so much doubt. Thanks for replying back, and your vids.
@mindshiftskeptic OK, I was able to write it all out probably as good as it’s gonna get… I’m gonna try to make this interesting and fun, since as you’re an atheist, I risk boring you to tears talking about seemingly magical nonsense. So, I started believing in God when I was around 22. The story is a typical one, someone came up to me at work and asked me if I was Christian and I said no. And they said for me to pray the sinners pray and I did. Then I started to see things. Not hallucinations. I started to see “spiritual” things, and spiritual truths. To go down this road you have to have an open mind and I think you might, so here goes My favorite band is Queens of the Stone Age (remember, open mind). The main guy in it’s name is Joshua Michael Homme. I grew up w this band. They inspired me to get into music. I wanted to be a professional musician. The name Joshua translates to Jesus, and means God is salvation. Michael means “who is like God” So, while I was having my spiritual revelations, which had to do with realizing idolatry vs true worship of the real God, this guy Joshua died of an infection from MRSA. He was revived in the hospital, but his heart did stop and they had to do the defib thing. Now… open mind… this guy died and was revived - correlation to Jesus. This guy lived a life of debauchery and was a slave to his art (idols/sin) before this incident. You can hear the pain, depravity, and sense of being totally lost in his music, which is partly what made it so good. When he had this medical issue, he fell into a deep depression, and was messed up physically for a while. He then wrote songs almost exclusively about God. It was as if he had a spiritual revelation, not unlike the one I was having at the same time. Now, here’s some stuff for you to look into. But before you do… if you do, a brief summary: first video is from the 2013 Like Clockwork album, this was right after the “born again” experience. Christians would call this the moment of salvation, with sanctification to follow. Homme is angry, sad, dejected about what’s happened throughout his whole life and it shows in the music. The spiritual awakening is when you realize what you’ve done. You realize who you were before Christ. You realize the damage you were causing to yourself and others. Homme had lived the sex drugs rock and roll lifestyle and it reflected in his music. I think he realized that he was blind to the fact that he was influencing people negatively. It’s a shock. You realize you’re the bad guy and you’re fighting for the wrong team. So first vid… m.th-cam.com/video/C9OfBcjyxKY/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUoaSBhcHBlYXIgbWlzc2luZyBxdWVlbnMgb2YgdGhlIHN0b25lIGFnZQ%3D%3D Then the album after that ‘Villains’ reflects an “ahh F it” attitude, I’m just gonna keep going, not gonna repent, going to keep it business as usual. Below is what the album cover was norselandsrock.com/qotsa-villains/ After this, and I don’t like just throwing the business out there, but it is out there… Homme got a divorce, and had a rough custody battle for his kids, and had like 12 ppl close to him die. He also had cancer briefly but had it removed w no further issues, I think. The next album, In Times New Roman, has this song and vid in it, referencing/blaming God in the end of the vid. m.th-cam.com/video/F3Y6DLQNgAQ/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUmbmVnYXRpdmUgc3BhY2UgcXVlZW5zIG9mIHRoZSBzdG9uZSBhZ2U%3D 👆It makes me think of the man who builds his house on the sand verse Here’s another song from Like Clockwork, the album which has the most direct lyrics about God m.th-cam.com/video/eTRPC59k8ng/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUVa2VlcCB5b3VyIGV5ZXMgcGVlbGVk The other albums are more obscure in their lyrics but def revolve around God and Homme’s unwillingness to let go of his idolatry, and the consequences that follow. I encourage you to listen to all 3 albums, and the ones before them, but I’m biased for my fav band. So, I’m sure I sound like an obsessed fan and religious loon, but this is how I believe God reveals himself. It’s through personal experience, and I can only do my best to communicate these things to you second hand. So, then there’s Thom Yorke from Radiohead. All Radiohead songs after OK computer in 1997 are about God. All lyrics are cryptic, but once you know who the muse is - God, it’s pretty much self evident. Great, another band thing, who cares? Well the name Thomas is biblical, Thomas was the doubting disciple. I’ll only say that much and give you some songs. Listen to them at your leisure if you feel like it m.th-cam.com/video/9wCJPm19XYQ/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUScmVja29uZXIgcmFkaW9oZWFk m.th-cam.com/video/GBcdeyzec_Q/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUVbnVkZSByYWRpb2hlYWQgbHlyaWNz m.th-cam.com/video/-PDGrYjFg0c/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygURYXJwZWdnaSByYWRpb2hlYWQ%3D m.th-cam.com/video/yxWBd840E9g/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUadGhvbSB5b3JrZSBhdG9tcyBmb3IgcGVhY2U%3D m.th-cam.com/video/DpVfF4U75B8/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUSaW5nZW51ZSB0aG9tIHlvcmtl m.th-cam.com/video/ThlmqhreuZ8/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUiYnJhaW4gaW4gYSBib3R0bGUgdGhvbSB5b3JrZSB2aWRlbw%3D%3D Again, revelation of God, shown idolatry’s bad, continues in idolatry - bad results So, Thomas the doubter… the name Thomas literally means twin, the nickname Jesus gave to the disciple. I believe he gave him this nickname because he was double-minded. As if there were two of him. Just speculation, but I do share the name, and again - personal experience. But anyway, the full name was Judas Thomas. Judas means praise or thanksgiving which has the same meaning as Judaism or Jewish. So I think that there’s some tie to the name Thomas and the Jewish people. I can def say for myself and most other believers I’m sure, that we can relate to the Jewish people in the Old Testament not wanting to give up idols and not wanting to ever fully trust and follow God. But another thing to think about when listening to Radiohead. And then you have G.G. Allin. Born Jesus Christ Allin. Yeah… so look him up. Watch some of the talk shows he was on. Here’s a section taken from Wikipedia and some videos. “Allin was born Jesus Christ Allin at Weeks Memorial Hospital in Lancaster, New Hampshire, the younger of two sons… He was given this name because his father told his wife that Jesus Christ had visited him, and told him that his newborn son would be a great man in the vein of the Messiah…” m.th-cam.com/video/btDnJ7T9FD4/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUSZ2cgYWxsaW4gaW50ZXJ2aWV3 m.th-cam.com/video/NzL9-IMERqk/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUIZ2cgYWxsaW4%3D So these are three examples of famous ppl, but of course, I look into all peoples names and what they mean, and either by power of suggestion or because God actually names people after who they are/how they are like, that’s a big piece of “evidence” for me. That and astrology, Western and Eastern, which I think carry merit, which is so bizarre and insane to say, and shouldn’t be so but seemingly is valid.. to me at least when I looked into it. If it’s real, which is unknowable for certain, it speaks to some kind of design which would point to a designer. I admit I’ve not even read the Bible cover to cover. I’ve read the entire New Testament and parts of the Old. I find the same things you find disgusting just as disgusting and so I’m a troubled Christian, or I’m a deluded fool. So if you want, look into these things and get back to me on what you think. If nothing else, hopefully you like the music. Thanks and take care. I’ll keep watching. No hard feelings if I don’t hear back, I know how crazy all of that sounded. Maybe I’ll pull myself out of this one day.
It is the craziest thing to me how deeply inaccurately atheists are depicted in the Christian world. When i told my parents that i was an atheist the first thing they did was show me the Case for Christ movie (the fiction not the documentary). The main character was an atheist that converted later, and all i could think was.... this guy is just an asshole. I turned to my parents and said "Is this how yall think atheists are? I have friends that are atheists and they definitely don't act like that." And legitimately all my parents said to me was "You have friends that are atheists?" I couldn't believe that was their take away, nevermind the fact that i was literally one of the leaders in a Christian organization at my Uni (It was all fine and dandy to have them as friends to preach the word to them but heaven forbid that I'm friends with them in general) . That's when i knew that they where why too indoctrinated to have this discussion.
thank you for sharing! my blood pressure went up just reading that. By the way, I read the case for christ at one my weakest points while still a christian and it helped some for a min until I was brave enough to read The Case Against The Case For Christ...That was a huge step for me in my deconversion.
@@MindShift-Brandon Yeah we were shown of the documentary when I was about 15, I literally hardly remember anything from it but I do remember my 15 year old self being thoroughly convinced. But for my 21 year old self watching, even if they had every piece of evidence that was 100% convincing, the caricature of a main character was so distracting that i couldn't focus on anything else (Man was just straight up verbally abusing his wife). And then I thought about the God's not Dead movies and all the Christian shows I would watch as a child and thought Oh my God, this is just how they think atheist act. They really think that atheist are a monolith, no wonder they were so worried when I told them I didn't believe anymore.
Thank you, Brandon, for building a wonderful channel, and for all the careful planning and preparation that goes on behind the scenes. You are saying what needs to be said, one by one calling to book all the elephants in the room. There are detractors, to be sure, but this is completely normal and to be expected; just as it is philosophically and practically impossible to build a piece of furniture without leaving behind offcuts and shavings.
Reading the bible and starting to really see the character of god in the OT was part of my deconversion. The psychotic genocidal tendencies, narcissism, insecurity, vindictiveness, etc. SOOOO many negative traits in a being that is supposed to loving and logical. The character is god seems to very much like that of many men that have been in power across history. Hmmmm...maybe that's because men wrote the bible in the first place. They created god in their image. It was never the other way around. And SOOO many ancient cultures have done exactly the same thing.
I really appreciate your presentation style. I would say that so far you are second only to Drew of GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic in the counter apologics TH-cam sphere. You take this seriously, and seem to know it well.
I just came across your channel, excellent, thank you. I especially appreciate your views that we are not better than other people and that there are things that you value and miss about religion. I went through a phase myself where I thought I was better because I didn't believe in God anymore, but I realized that I really wasn't I was just lucky to break through the beliefs I had as a child and keep seeking and asking questions. I actually recently returned to a sort of religion and that is Unitarian Universalism (I hate the name, it doesn't really apply to this group anymore!) the reason I did is their history of of standing for justice, human rights, and working to make this one life that I know I have better. I don't have to have any god beliefs there, but I have regained some respect for some good things religion can offer like purpose and community. Although I really could go without the hymn singing, LOL!
very good. This is a daily issue for me online too, i have to constantly explain, i'm conceding God exists for the sake of argument just momentarily in order to make a point about his character according to their holy books. Ray Comfort is one of the worst for deliberately misunderstanding this. This was a brilliant way of putting it, iv'e just found this channel just now and I like it. Nice one.
They’re prevented from accepting valid complaints about their religion, because if someone did have a valid complaint, it would invalidate a perfect Bible from a perfect god.
@@andrewferg8737 a silly quote from a passage that, at first glance, appears to basically tell people _(inter alia)_ not to be inquisitive or think critically? Yeah, that’s really a good advertisement for the apologetic position(!) You’re not supposed to say the quiet part out loud when it comes to apologetic charlatanry, you know!
@@jasons8479 "study of logic" --- Existence in and of itself, to be, truth, or logic are ontological synonyms for the transcendent: that which is without beginning or end and which cannot 'not be' as is demonstrated through antinomies such as "there is no truth" or "nothing is", etc. Existence in and of itself, or any of its synonyms, is the singularly self-evident axiom from which all else is derived. That axiom is the referent for the term God as used in classical theology.
I admire your patience in the way you explain stuff. I try to do that but sometimes when I talk to theists I just lose it and say "God is just Santa Claus for adults!! Grow up FFS!!" 😂
I have a personal rule. 'Don't talk politics or religion'. I will honestly answer a question if directed at me. If the individual starts to get heated, I just shrug and say 'Hey. You asked. I have neither the interest nor skill to attempt to change your mind.' Typically, the individual and I will resume talking, (perhaps the following day) avoiding the previous subject. I have not encountered anyone, so far, who acted unreasonably. (But I don't have a YT channel. I applaud those who do, but I do not have the temperament for that noble endeavor.)
I have just recently started watching your channel and am really enjoying your work. I think Christians are so adamant about labeling atheists liars because an honest atheist does not fit into their theology. If they believe that anyone who does not believe goes to hell then they have to blame us for our lack of belief. Otherwise, their "loving god" is sending us to hell simply for being wrong. That is pretty obviously unjust and destroys their preferred view of God as perfectly just and kind.
It's funny that they tell us we can't talk about Christianity because we aren't Christian yet they always talk about atheism or other religions despite not being atheist or part of another religion. The hypocrisy isn't even funny anymore it's just depressing.
I miss a lot about religion. I miss having rituals with my family and community, singing songs and saying prayers together. Like many atheist, I tried too hard and wanted it to all be true. Overthinking religion tends to lead to either fundamentalism or atheism.
@@pinky9440 Don’t stop, it still means something. And it’s still capable of giving the same relief it gave before. Praying can help by talking out your problems and ideas, it provides an opportunity to put thoughts into words, it can help calm your pulse & racing thoughts, etc. No one was listening, but if it was helping you before, it can still help. Prayer can be a way to speak to & bring out the best part of yourself.
@LOwens-xf8yo - You are right. I didn't think of it that way. Even though my prayers were never answered, it did bring comfort. I guess it is similar to writing in a journal, you "voice" your troubles and think about it and possible solutions, in a calm manner without stressing.
Fantastic video Brandon! That guy at the end talking about the properly presented gospel and wicked atheists clearly has no understanding of the issues we have. It would be easy for us to say that Christians don’t want it to NOT be true lol.
"that Christians don’t want it to NOT be true" ---- Don't want Goodness to not be true? Absolutely. But evil can't even imagine Goodness, so why would evil believe in Goodness? "they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us...?" (Matthew 8) "there were they in great fear, where no fear was" (Psalm 53)
"For whereas wickedness is fearful, it is because it bears witness to its own self-condemnation: for a troubled conscience always forecasts grievous things. For fear is nothing else but a yielding up of the confidence of thought... an ignorance of that cause which brings the torment... which is their own soul failing them: so that a sudden and unlooked for fear comes upon them...and they become to themselves more grievous than the darkness" (Wisdom 17) "And Jesus said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?" (Mark 4) "Stop imagining the worst, and believe in Goodness!" (Mark 1)
Speaking as an atheist, I do not consider myself in any way obliged to accept ancient biblical claims that cannot be proven to be authentic. There is no supporting evidence for divine law, just as there is no supporting evidence for that 'son of god' stuff. I have no reason to think that the person I am can survive brain death, so the notion of heaven & hell has no real meaning to me. It wouldn't matter to me what afterlife belief options are available.
@@MindShift-Brandon As you can see, my personal stance on this issue is based upon the lack of supporting evidence. It's like being challenged to explain how water could be turned into wine, when there is no proof that water was turned into wine. People make stuff up, and I think that making stuff up was at the heart of the bible's problem.
"If I don't like Voldemort, it doesn't mean I believe in him" That was so god damned funny. I really understand your frustration for the guy in video 4, it's so manipulative - it's essentially gaslighting. It's what an abuser will do, they'll invalidate someone's feelings by getting them to doubt themselves. "If you reject the gospel, you're not intellectual." is the exact same energy as "I'm not being hurtful, you're just being too emotional." Unless you arrive at the exact conclusion a Christian wants you to, you're just stupid (or evil). Just in the same way that if you question your partner's behaviour as hurtful, you're just being unreasonable Even if you remove malice, it's just the kind of conversation that can only end horribly. Nothing is worse than when two parties disagree and talk right past each other instead of validating the disagreement to confront it at that point.
Love this comment. yes gaslighting is the exact right term! It is so frustrating and he really should know better at this point. I understand when an everyday christian just cant fathom it, but cmon! Thank you for sharing.
Great point at the 21-minute mark where you ask, "why can't all Christians properly deliver the gospel message?" Why is it THAT complicated? And indeed it is! Coming from a Reformed-Calvinist background, it was quite telling, in retrospect, to witness all the division and rancor - even among Reformed Calvinists! - about just what this "gospel message" is!! Reformed Calvinists, the ones who take Scripture literally and insist that it is ALL God-breathed and easy and simple to understand, even THEY can't agree. There was and still is a practical civil war in Reformed Calvinist circles between the followers of R.C. Sproul and his followers on one side, and John MacArthur and his followers on the other, with each side accusing the other of preaching a "false gospel!" Each side is using the same exact bible. Each side insists on a literal hermeneutic when reading scripture. Each side insists on the "perspicuity of scripture." Each of these guys (Sproul and MacArthur) have written numerous biblical commentaries, and each backs up their arguments from that same bible using the same hermeneutic. And yet, even these guys - these Kingpin apologists from the SAME denomination - cannot agree what "the gospel" means?
This was good. I never have liked the claim that people only reject Christianity because they're evil and don't want to be held to account for it. Even when I was at my most devout I understood that from the outside it really had to look pretty fantastical. And it's funny, the guy's assertion is that the Bible properly presented will snare everyone, well that wasn't really the case with me, cuz I was flat out appalled by it when I actually looked deeper into it on my own. And that line you said, "I didn't fail the Gospel, the Gospel failed me." That hits hard. 😔
I think the reverse is actually true. Believers don't believe because they've rationally concluded that the gospels are true. "They just want to worship" In my case, no, I hadn't intellectually examined the gospels when I became an atheist because I've never been a Christian. Nor had I examined all other religions. Something something burden of proof.
That claim by Clay Jones had a few very important caveats that he snuck in. "I think the most important is that nobody rejects the bible for >purely intellectual reasons
Two wonderful points!. Thank you. I don’t even know what it would mean for christianity to be true at this point. I am so confused about gods character and the rules to it all from his word that im not sure what it would look like. But i do know it involves an awful lot of bad stuff and i think we can do better.
It is indeed annoying as hell when some believers pretend to know what atheists believe or why they believe it better than they do. And to add insult to injury, after displaying such an awesome feat of psychic ability, they may even accuse you of being an atheist because you are too prideful.
Well done. It is soooooo frustrating trying clear up Christian willful confusion, ignorance, and straw manning. It never ends. They really don't want to understand the truth about former believers and unbelievers.. To understand would be their own path out of the Christian delusion.
thank you, Bill and you are right. If i was a real christain and I really dont believe anymore, what would that mean for their potential? Its a defense for sure. But all i can do is hope 1 or 2 people start to rethink a few things.
@@MindShift-Brandon Yah. Most won't listen, but a few probably will. I'm in several debate groups and attempt to correct people on the points you've made. Myself and others repeat this over and over to the same people again and again, and they just refuse to understand, and keep repeating these same false criticisms. Maddening. I read some of the comments in your videos and see the same nonsense from believers there. I think it really gets down to a lack of critical thinking skills. That doesn't come over night. They are handicapped. Maybe continued interaction with unbelievers might help that development. I know that developing critical thinking skills was the basic critical foundation for my eventual deconversion. And, I've spent 30 plus years since my deconversion refining my ability to think and reason more clearly and accurately. I appreciate your ability to articulate these issues with accuracy and clarity.
@@MindShift-Brandon PS. I'm encouraged to see your channel growing in numbers so quickly. When I started watching it about a month ago it seems like there were only about 400 subscribers. Now I see it's about 2500. Great. I wish you the best. Your vids are excellent.
Thanks so much, we are getting there! and you are right in your other comment about the critical thinking, it seems its at direct odds with faith. I do expect many to stay stuck in their ways, and the ones that join the debate groups or hound atheist youtubers are probably the least likely, but i have to believe there are some quite believers that happen along videos like this, and as the christian would say, get a seed planted.
@@MindShift-Brandon The challenge for me has been finding and applying methods to encourage development of critical thinking skills in those who've not developed them much. No easy task when dealing with deeply indoctrinated, emotionally motivated minds.
i got "immersed" at age 7 strictly because my older brother and our best friend were doing so. i guess it didn't take because i got a severe whipping from both parents at age 12 for saying "goddammit", then i was sent to my room - this was back when being sent to one's room actually meant something. ah, what a club to belong to.
Man, where did you find "Pastor Strawman"? He is so cringe. The worst part is there is likely a church full of true believers nodding their heads and frequently saying "Amen".
ha! which one? Ever since posting this content, my feed is full of this stuff and many commenters have sent me clips like these to react to. I had no idea how much was out there.
@@MindShift-Brandon I mean the first guy, with the grey beard and dark complexion. He looks to me like what I picture Moses or The prophet Jeremiah looking like.
Apologist: "You're wicked!" Me: "Dude, you have no idea! Do you know how many times a day I want my hometown turned into a pile of radioactive ash? Probably this is the 5th time today. I HATE people. Like literal revulsion. And I hate money. And socializing." Apologist: "...."
Very good points. Atheism does NOT bring answers. It brings questions and, for the curious ones, leads them to start looking for answers based on actual consolidated knowledge. Like... "What are the possibilities for the Big Bang to enter the expansion phase people call its beginning and what has been observed so far in favor of said possibilities ?" Which is also the reason why gods are not out of the plate, it's just that none has so far deemed us worthy to drop by, influence one of the many many devices we use to mesure gravity and violated physics enough to write in morse : " Hey suckers, I created your universe." All we have is physics.
Thank you, I've been working on the critics of some cosmological models that my knowledge can still allow me to understand (and some are wonky, like the pseudo scientific "Janus model" that is based on a time inversion of particles... The problems are that the search for the chronon has brought no results so far, whereas we should have found a chronon... Yesterday ? :D And that it forgets about the antimatter and the unstable atoms we observed 60 years ago.) Universe out of nothing ? That's just Krauss... And the hypothesis works but we still lack a few datas.
Exactly. Christians generally have similar beliefs that cannot change (unless they have to in order to get new converts and keep current members) while atheism allows for pretty much anything. Are we in a simulation? Let's try and find out. Is evolution and the big bang true? Let's find out. etc
The biggest issue when it comes to conversations like this is most people are very set in their ways. It is difficult and takes a lot of time and strength to not only look at your own beliefs, but to truly attempt to understand others. The average person never even thinks to put in the effort to understand why they believe their own beliefs let alone others.
My experience has been much like yours. Starting at about 13 years old, the discovery of science opened my eyes to the fact that the Bible was not literally true, and so I asked myself "what is the meaning of this obviously fictional tale". It was in the process of searching for this "god" that I realized that this was not about our physical reality, but more about our psychology. Through the study of human psychology I found out why people "believe" in gods and in time, why Christianity became such an influential religion. I used to try to convince Christians that their beliefs were silly and unfounded, but then I came to understand that not everyone had the ability to reason away false beliefs. In a way, I think many of us need beliefs, because without a reasoned understanding of the universe and of ones own mind, belief in a god may be all some of us have. I feel lucky to have been allowed, as a child, to make my own choice of what is true and what is not. My parents never told me that God is real. They let me figure it out on my own. Having full ownership of my mind has been life's greatest blessing. Ignorance may be bliss,, but knowledge is power over fear.
"about 13 years old, the discovery of science opened my eyes" ---- “A little natural philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in natural philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion” (Francis Bacon “Of Atheism” 1601) “Posterity will one day laugh at the foolishness of modern materialistic philosophers. The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator. I pray while I am engaged at my work in the laboratory… Science brings men nearer to God” (Louis Pasteur c. 1895) “There is no conflict between science and religion” (Georges Lemaitre, NY Times 1933) “the opinion time and again has been expressed… that scientific truth cannot be brought into harmony with the religious interpretation of the world. Although I am convinced of the unassailability of scientific truth in its own sphere, I have never been able to dismiss the content of religious thinking simply as a stage in human consciousness which we have superseded, as a part which we can dispense with in the future. So I have continually been forced during my life to ponder on the relationship between these two worlds of the spirit, for I have never been able to doubt the truth of what they are pointing to.” (Werner Heisenberg “Scientific and Religious Truth” Cross Currents Vol. 24, No. 4 Winter 1975, pp. 463-473)
"power over fear" --- "For whereas wickedness is fearful, it is because it bears witness to its own self-condemnation: for a troubled conscience always forecasts grievous things. For fear is nothing else but a yielding up of the confidence of thought... an ignorance of that cause which brings the torment... which is their own soul failing them: so that a sudden and unlooked for fear comes upon them...and they become to themselves more grievous than the darkness" (Wisdom 17) "And Jesus said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?" (Mark 4)
@@timhallas4275 "Freedom is the cornerstone of knowledge" --- Freedom is the ability to participate in the good. To do good requires a free and active will. One cannot do good against their will.
Q: Why is there something rather than nothing? A: I don't know. Q: How did the Universe come into existence? A: I don't know. If you have an answer other than "I don't know" then you owe us loads and loads of evidence.
Atheists, as a group, are only vocal as a reaction. In societies where religion’s role has been whittled away, you see considerably of less of this. In the West, Christians brought this upon themselves and those who act all upset always fail to see it. My ex was Norwegian, born in raised in as close to post-Christian an environment as it gets. Until he met me, he had never even known someone who had ever believed and was convinced this was a thing of the past and in parts of the world where access to information was still poor. “Faith” was a completely void concept that he could not even comprehend. His is not “the” Norwegian experience but it is very telling. Guess how many atheist groups there were around him…none. There was simply no point. Being an atheist was the default.
I CANNOT EVEN IMAGINE! yes its a response for sure. Thats why there are no atheism groups against believers in zeus. Very few still believe in him and no one acts out of that belief to the harm of those around them. If that was the case, youd see a reaction. Exactly. lets hope christianity someday gets to the same level as greek mythology.
@@MindShift-Brandon When he found out about Americans who claimed to believe in the Nordic pantheon, the reaction was priceless. I wish I had filmed it. Just sheer wonder at the folly of it all. Although there are some people in Scandinavia who believe the same, but he had never met any. And you’re right, he too had never seriously assessed Christian or any other religious claim. The same way we don’t worry ourselves over Paul Atreides being the Kwisatz Haderach. I used to tell the people at Catholic school that they should be very thankful for people like me, who fought them tooth and nail because there will come a day when sheer indifference will be the reaction…and it’s game over, then.
clay, john and braxton: Do I deserve eternal torture for not believing in magic? How does my being unable to believe in magic make me wicked? Do you agree with yahweh that torture is a form of justice?
@@MindShift-BrandonBrandon, don't worry about it! I'm going to drink some Johnny Walker Black this weekend (Hitch's fav) for you and that will forgive your "sin!" 😅
This is the first video of yours I've watched since seeing you on The Line, and since it's been a couple of months old now I'm hoping that you've eased up on the pause elimination. Without some natural pauses your ideas can get lost in the unending flow of words. I look forward to adding your videos in my weekly viewing. Thank you for adding your voice to the fight.
All those other new subscribers followed me! I subscribed last week because I enjoy watching admirable people speaking wiith the wisdom they never get bored of watching videos of TH-cam Atheists many ways
They jump on THEIR definition of “atheism” because it’s easier to fight that than to actually discuss the idea of, “I don’t believe in any of the deities that have been presented to me and I don’t see a reason that I should.” Why fight steel when you can burn straw?
See when I get the “you just hate god” faithful people I simply respond with “No I dont hate your god, I can’t hate what doesn’t exist. But I can hate the ignorance his idea instills in others.” I don’t attack the deity directly but the supposed inspiration that deity brings about and the harm that comes with it.
I feel your frustration. There is no difference between the arrogant, angry, apathetic Atheist and the blind, brash, bullheaded Christian. They equally annoy me. They are both arguing over something they pretend to know. For nobody "knows", and, as you eluded to, we should be after Truth to begin with. Science is a methodology. Not anti-theology. Belief should be the beginning of learning. Not the end. The "something from Nothing" argument does nothing (pun) to prove the existence of Yahweh or any Noun-god running the cosmos. We simply do not know. I feel that whatever runs the cosmos isn't anything animal or human or Noun-like. We only assume that It is because we are humans. Had we been sentient fish, Yahweh would be.. assumed to be a Giant Fish.
All we need is: of all the billions of things we DO know about this place where we live, absolutely ZERO of those things has required "goddidit" as an explanation, or even a partial explanation. The chances are that "goddidit" will NEVER be even a small part of the explanation of things we do not yet understand.
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I am one of those atheists who not even if (a) god of any flavor appeared in front of me I would believe it to be magic... I subscribe to Clarkes third law, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" (Or perhaps Shermer's last law "Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God." )
thats an interesting point. And to my agnostic side, this is the most likely cause for so much of our unknowns, brain in vat, AI, Aliens, Etc, but I think a god is not outside the realm of possibility, and id be open to at least believing, worshipping and following are a whole separate matter. What I do know is, its not this abrahamic god. Thanks for the input.
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@@MindShift-Brandon anyhow with this video you got my subscription, thanks for what you are doing =)
2:15 You forgot Hitchens?! And you mentioned Daniel Dennett first? I personally really like Dennett because he's more modest and measured than Harris and Dawkins, but he seems to be the least notorious of the horsemen and the most likely to slip peoples' minds when listing them all out.
yes i always think of him because of his, in my opinion, bad take on free will especially in contrasts to Harris. Harris is my favorite of the 4 by far and then Hitch. No idea how I forgot the most prominent of them all though!
Also the idea that people would choose to indulge in their pet sin over a relationship with the creator of the universe who will lead them through every difficult moment. Someone they can talk with / pray to about anything (because He already knows) and will not only listen but will support, guide and help them through it. Not to mention a community of support of like minded folks. Nah, I’d rather lie to myself so I can sin. Nobody says that. Non believers simply don’t believe. The evidence isn’t sufficient. In most cases it really is that simple.
And has been frequently said, if all we wanted to do was sin, we could have stayed a Christian and done that, then just asked for forgiveness. Why bother with being ostracized, demonized, etc if it was unnecessary?
apologists and preachers aim at the sheep in the flock by attempting to either scare and discourage the weak or blind the curious with lies. if nothing else works they can always use the threat of sin and hell like any proper mafia boss.
Hey all, I really wanted to get this video out there as a base for moving forward on the channel. I am shocked daily at how misunderstood or misrepresented Atheism is. Hope this helps!
To me, it feels like theists very often are willfully ignorant, or even blatantly lying, about what atheism really is. Nothing you say will ever change that.
For them, truly understanding atheism might very well be the first step in the realization of how absurd their theology really is. It did work like that for me 45 years ago.
These christians don't want that. They want to keep the ridiculous fantasy alive, at all costs. They are willing to sacrifice their integrity to do so.
@@Ploskkky
Atheism is a worldview without God.
@@jacliveshere
You have still the same knowledge and evidence of God like everybody else you just want to do your own thing.
@@jacliveshere
Because it's true. 😄
@@jacliveshere Yes, denial is an important religious tool. It is sabotage and poisoning of the mind, with the goal to prevent it to perceive objective reality, by inducing fear and promising false rewards.
If I believed in God but I really wanted to sin and not change my lifestyle, I'd just become a wishy-washy liberal Christian, not an atheist.
precisely. I point this out towards the end. The best way, if you "love" sin is just to stay with the guy that forgives it, ha. Thanks for watching.
Lol good point, MSS.
Point. Since god forgives, right? 😎
I would find (or make) a god that likes sinning. There are lots of them.
@@MindShift-Brandon "the guy that forgives it"---
“one who despairs despises My mercy, making his sin to be greater than mercy and goodness… See, therefore, that this sin alone leads him to hell… Despair is that sin which is pardoned neither here nor hereafter, and it is because despair displeases Me so much that I wish them to hope in My mercy at the point of death, even if their life have been disordered and wicked. This is why during their life I use this sweet ruse with them, making them hope greatly in My mercy, for when, having fed themselves with this hope, they arrive at death, they are not so inclined to abandon it, on account of the severe condemnation they receive, as if they had not so nourished themselves... for when the worm of conscience sleeps no longer, but is gnawing you, the devils shout and render to you the reward which they are accustomed to give their servants, that is to say, confusion and condemnation; they wish to bring you to despair”
(St. Catherine of Siena “Dialogue: 31. Of the death of sinners” c.1370 AD)
"to the crooked You show Yourself shrewd" (Psalm 18)
"In hope, the Church prays for all men to be saved" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1821)
Can I say as an atheist, it would horrify me if it turns out that Christianity is true. So they're right about that. What they get wrong is the reason. I don't have a deep desire to sin. I do have a problem with a God who sets up a system where billions of lives have to endure eternal torture.
It's creepy and disturbing; little different from some horrible or "evil" god you might see in a movie or a Lovecraft story. Just an unstoppable powerful figure who demands blood and suffering for their own mysterious or sadistic purposes. God literally "smells" the burning flesh of an animal sacrifice in the old hebrew books, and it pleases him.
"Is slavery ok? Is murder ok? etc etc"; so many believers will simply answer "if god says so, then yes". Well who speaks for God? The high priests? Sick and disturbing, a slave religion.
I'm a new atheist, who used to be a fundamentalist Christian, and I think a big reason why Christians make claims like "you were never saved" is because they are afraid of people like you and me. They might have thoughts like "could I be wrong?" Or "do they know something that I don't?" And I know from personal experience, that questioning your beliefs is scary, but I am glad I did it.
Glad for you my man, and yes its a defense mechanism for sure in my opinion. Cant bear to see that someone just like them was capable of losing their faith. And I really understand that for them.
I'm not afraid of you I just pity you because the judgement day is coming for all of us, untill this happens you have still time to repent.
"I'm a new atheist, who used to be a fundamentalist Christian"---
[I'm a new fundamentalist, who used to be a different kind of fundamentalist]
@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 It is so sad that you are still brainwashed like we were.
@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 Didn't Jesus say to not judge lest you be judged? How about that rather lengthy lecture about separating the sheep from the goats, with him closing with "what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me"?
For someone who claims to be of a religion of love, you sure seem to do nothing but hate.
My question for Christians: if God is responsible for everything, why isn't God held accountable for anything?
a wonderful question that you will never get a good reply to. They just pass the buck. Satan and the fall and all that.
"why isn't God held accountable for anything?"
God takes the full responsibility, at the end he judges evil righteously and pardons those who have put their trust in him.
if billions of people are burning in hell at the end just for never knowing this god that made them and placed them in a time or place where they could not know him, how is that taking full responsibility. This is one of thousands of issues where I dont see god taking a lick of responsibility. If I abandon my kids at birth, I am not taking responsibility by coming back at the very end for a torture session.
@@MindShift-Brandon
" just for never knowing this god that made them and placed them in a time or place where they could not know him"
God has given everyone the same knowledge of him through the creation and conscience so people are without excuse, the problem is that people suppress this knowledge of God. (romans 1)
quoting more scripture does not help. The leap to general revelation is a ridiculous one. Theres never been one account of an unreached people group knowing about Yahweh or Jesus or his sacrifice or their sin etc before being contacted. Without that knowledge you cannot be saved if you really want to go according to the bible.
Wait, we're not a coalition? Then who have I been sending my membership fees to all these years?
The idea that hating god means that you believe he exists wouldn’t be so laughable if christians didn’t have an endless line of fictional characters they’ve raged against. Harry Potter, Buzz Lightyear, mermaids, super heroes … every week they’re mad about a new fictional character 🤦♂️
ha! such a great point. Oh the irony. I wish I had included that in here.
lol! good one.
To me the whole claim about "atheist hating god" is absurd to me. This is like saying you hate Zeus because you don't think he exists.
@@MindShift-Brandon lol maybe next time ❤️
I think it's a textbook example of *projection* basically accusing ones enemy of that of which one is guilty.
To Clay Jones, I say, when I lost my faith I did NOT want to. My goal was to get closer to Jesus. My main motivation was a concern that the modern church didn't seem very Christlike. I had myself open to a constant spirit of prayer, I studied the Bible in a way I never had before (prior to this I had just read it, and justified the parts I didn't like) including studying its history and how we got the Bible we have today.
The problem was studying the Bible showed it to be a man-made book. But I still had Jesus, and I would still remain open to his voice in a constant state of listening for him. The problem was I wasn't hearing anything, and I was concerned that what I was doing was following my own mortal conscience. As I lost stance after stance on issue after issue, eventually my faith that Jesus saved me and loved me and that God was real was all I had left, and I was terrified that I didn't even have that! I prayed several times a day for a long time, begging God to calm my heart and give me the piece of his spirit, and please do so in a way I can know is real, and not just me.
Bupkus. And I still didn't immediately become an atheist. I was terrified to admit that to myself. I didn't WANT to be an atheist. But eventually I had to be honest. And once, I was, it was like a weight off my shoulders.
Thanks for sharing. His statements were just ludicrous
When you said that you feel lucky, I imploded... The amount of gratitude I felt, simply knowing my mind is free from all this bs that 90% believes... It's just amazing
I was an "old atheist." I was a late comer to the Internet. Then, I discovered that I was a "new atheist." There was no difference in the arguments, there was no difference in the attitudes, there was no difference in the deconversion stories. All there was that made a difference was a new technology called social media. It made it possible for people sheltered from atheist thought to hear what atheism is without the filter of mass media, religious indoctrination, and social stigma.
this is a great distinction. Thank you.
But there are HUGE differences. Consider the atheism of Stirner, of Feuerbach, of Nietzsche, of Camus, and compare that to... Dawkins... The previous line was very philosophically motivated, creative and understood the symbolic nature of things. Their rejection of God was profound and knoweldgeable. Dawkins does not even understand theism and his rejection is unphilosophical, shallow and quite mediocre.
A new atheist is just an old atheist that the church can't burn at the stake.
Ha! Well done.
"to hear what atheism is without..." ---
Without a rational referent for what they lack belief in.
Damn! what can we do to get this guy 100k followers. He is leagues above so many of the other counter-apologists!
Too kind, my man! thank you though.
I agree @jwhite91! I dig Brandon's approach. While I, admittedly, have not come to the place where I disbelieve in the existence of God, I am certainly at the place where I can no longer believe what I've been told and Brandon is saying, out loud, some of the stuff that crowds my brain!
Agreed! Coming out of the gates hot! 👏👏👏
Agree. Let's rock this place, everybody.
Yeah, he’s #1. Like he really is #1. I will absolutely watch all of his content for however long I can.
Dude, you are such an effective communicator. Again, another great video.
Thank you so much! Glad to hear it.
"Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
Response: "Dude, you are such an effective communicator."
You are a breath of fresh air Sir. Very few can express their point of view the way you have shown. You tackle the many issues I feel Christians generally ignore or stifle. Keep up the great work, I’ll continue to tune in and share. Thank you.
Will do! Thank you so much for the kind encouragement!
Love it when apologists appeal to intellect first, and if that fails they can always fall back on threat of torture.
if you can even call that an appeal to intellect lol. but yes i hear you, so much ammo to use on us nonbeleivers.
Well... the problem with that is that if no one tells you that there is punishment for rejecting God then you will just cry that no one "warned" you. The reason the appeal to intellect comes first is because it is better that you see to reason. If you cannot see to reason then at least behave under threat of punishment. The laws of all governments work the same way. They first appeal to your "intellect" and if that does not work they also fall back on the threat of torture.
You seem to be okay with governments doing it but not God? Double standard hold any meaning to you?
" threat of torture" ---
"Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father, but there is one that accuseth you..."
(John 5)
"For whereas wickedness is fearful, it is because it bears witness to its own self-condemnation: for a troubled conscience always forecasts grievous things. For fear is nothing else but a yielding up of the confidence of thought... an ignorance of that cause which brings the torment... which is their own soul failing them: so that a sudden and unlooked for fear comes upon them...and they become to themselves more grievous than the darkness"
(Wisdom 17)
Torture is the best. God loves it.
Therefor, torture = love.
@@CD-vb9figovernments are real. God is not.
"If this is the best God can do I'm not impressed. These are the kinds of results you expect from an office temp with a bad attitude." George Carlin
Great video with really well formulated point. I was never really a believer and I live in a very atheistic society but I can still relate to most of it.
Good ol Carlin. He really had this crap sorted out. Thank you!
Truth seeker here too. I totally respect you and your journey. Mine has been similar. Brought up in a fundamental cult -jw. Then after reading the new testament left for fundamental mainstream christianity. Still somethings didn't add up to me. Sin being one. Animals die when did they sin - in fact I realized everything is not perfect or last forever. The whole concept started to unravel when I looked at other mythologies. I love your approach and your absolute sincerity. Love and light from the u.k. 👋
Julie! what a wonderful comment. Thank you for sharing and for the great compliments and encouragement! So happy you, too have found the truth. Cant even imagine having to do it twice as you did, but that seems a common path for JW. Appreciate you being here!
I did not know the Jehovah's Witnesses had a presence in the UK. I always thought they were an American phenomenon.
@20:24 "If You're reading Harry Potter and you don't like Voldemort..."
I didn't hate Voldemort. I hated Dolores Umbridge. I've never wanted to beat up a fictional character so badly.
voldemort in my opinion, or tom riddle i think was done dirty in his childhood yknow unable to feel any sense of love and all so i dont hate him that much. dolores umbridge has no excuses in my eyes though.
I grew up in a fundamentalist Baptist background, and like you, believed it wholeheartedly for a little over 30 years. After I left the religion, it took me about another 10 years or so to come fully to the realization that I was an atheist. I can honestly say that it wasn't about "hating God" or "wanting to sin". It was the realization that it just doesn't make sense, and that the world doesn't work the way that the bible/Christianity (or any other religion) says it does. What you probably will find, though, is that the longer you're away from theism, the less the opinions of theists about atheists matters.
I’m thankful for your help, Man! I’ve been leaning agnostic even after “mission trips”, schools, countless debates and experiences with divine healing and tongues leading into fundamentalism.
I had an agnostic friend talk about how freewill is just an illusion and I started doing the “Waking up” course with Sam Harris, two weeks in and I was at the most peace I could have imagined. No judgement, no striving, just peace. I realized… I was just brainwashed. You’ve been a help. Thank you. I’d like to talk to somebody if you or if you know someone that would help. Or anyone in the comment section of course. Just to share stories and experiences.
Brandon, I really like your honesty at the end about the things you miss about Christianity. I relate to a lot of it especially being very close with my parents and siblings who are heavily involved in church still. Very relatable, thank you!
Thanks so much!
13:00 that car analogy was great. putting that one into the back pocket for later
Thank you much!
12:30 ish - love this car metaphor because with a little fine tuning it shows how little their answer is worth. if an engineer asks "how was this engine made?" the answer "uhh... my book says Ford" is not an answer given by someone worth asking.
I have been following atheist content for a good 15 years now and I find yours non-judgmental, clear, concise and on-point. Nice work.
Well thats all i can ask for. Thank you for saying so. It us very encouraging!
Atheism also takes away your option for doing something bad (bad for society as opposed "sinful") and using your invisible friend as an excuse. Being an atheist means you accept your own responsibility for your actions, like an adult.
I didn’t travel the same route. However, I managed to reach the same journey’s end. Thank you for such an eloquent, clear and definitive description. I will never understand why “the righteous” can’t accept even the most reasoned denial of their magical thinking without ultimately threatening judgement because we are “wicked.” The religious gaslighting is immediately tedious and seriously pathological.
thank you for the kind words and I lovve your last line, so well said!
"I managed to reach the same journey’s end" ---- Not yet... not yet.
@@andrewferg8737Well this changes EVERYT... wait, no. Nevermind. Carry on.
So much gold here! But 22:14-24:17 is epic!! Well done, Brandon. We needed this.
ha, thank you so much. Glad you enjoyed it and found it useful!
100% agree! It made me want to stand up and yell, “Yeah! THAT!!”
Brandon I'm proud of you and this channel's growth. I know its getting harder to read the comments due to their amount.
Still here for now! There will hopefully come a time, i cant get to everyone, but im trying my best as i really appreciate each of you helping to build this. Thanks for the encouragement!
I've been told to watch apologists by Christian friends. I suspected something was up when most apologists and their description of non-believers were not close at all to my experiences.
I'm really liking your videos. I like your style and delivery.
Thank you so much! thats very motivating to hear.
Brandon, I so admire how you are able to keep from losing it!!!! Keep up your intellectual integrity. You are an amazing person. I am very grateful for having found you.
Thanks, Kami! Always a smile when I see your comments.
I found it interesting that you miss having something to worship. I’ve asked many believers why they need a god and the best I could surmise, is that it’s like an addiction of sorts. It’s fascinating to see what draws people to gods and why they are so passionate to protect that belief. It’s a tangible loss when you give up your belief, but to me, it’s more of an awakening. I don’t need this thing anymore. I can see it for what it is now. It controlled me, but now I’m free. Tell me that doesn’t sound like coming off an addiction, lol. Thanks for sharing. Your content is enjoyed and appreciated.
Thank you. The concept of it as an addiction is interesting. I would not have thought of it like that. I still dont know if worship was the right word. But it was a loss of something potentially perfect. Some end goal. Idk. Still working on that one. Appreciate you sharing.
"... something to worship." Hitchens (I seem to recall) came up with "numinous": something greater than us, that leads us to a state of awe. For me, it is like looking up into the sky, realizing that there is nothing (except air and empty space) between myself and the rest of the universe, and grappling with the concept of infinity.
yes for sure, both my existential dread but also my existential wonder has increased massively post deconversion
@@MindShift-Brandon This reminds me of what I told my kids when they were young. Find something that gives you clarity, focus, something to push against, you will be happier. Perhaps 'push against' is a analogous to faith in your regard? Losing your faith caused you to lose focus and purpose, you had nothing to push against.
@@MindShift-Brandon No safety net, no boundaries, no limits, you are free. Welcome to reality. 🙂
For me, new atheism is just atheism. But more vocal about the BS of religion.
yes, this made me want to do a while video on the misconceptions within the "tribes' of atheism. But I agree.
@@MindShift-Brandon I think ‘old atheism’ still suffered from some, historically understandable but misplaced respect for religion.
‘New atheism’ does not conform to that misplaced respect anymore.
Someone like Kent Hovind has been telling the same lies for some 20 years now.
He has been corrected probably a thousand times. But zero change.
I don’t think those kind of theists deserve our respect. And there are many.
thats a great point of clarification and i agree completely. Its a refusal to acknowledge the religion for anything that it claims and only off what it has produced.
@@MindShift-Brandon This also demonstrates that theists like KH are not interested in debating the arguments. So why should we?
In those cases I rather point out the lies, the dishonesty, the bigotry and the grifting.
Especially considering the fact that religion and religious dogma are a source of suffering for millions of people every day.
it's funny that all apologists have is wordplay, and in the end the wordplay isn't why they believe, WLC didn't start being a Christian because of the Kalam
The apologists say you hate god when they reveal their hatred of you when they seem to relish the thought of you burning in hell. Not very christian. Greatly appreciate you trying to answer all comments.
The enjoyment if this messed up system of justice is just crazy to me.
This is the first video ive seen of yours. It sums up my thoughts and views almost perfectly. And spoken more concisely and articulately than i ever coukd. Thanks
Well welcome! Thanks for being here and taking the time to leave a comment. I am glad to help articulate what's been going on in your head!
"98% of the people who had ever lived on this planet had never heard of this one particular god"
Can you prove your claim?
15:26 the question is = "Isn't the goal for both sides Truth?"
--- Let's be honest, the Goal for most god believers is NOT Truth. Their goal is one thing = to keep the belief in their god alive at ANY cost, even if it goes against the Facts, Logic, and Common Sense. Many even admit that no amount of evidence would change their mind about their god.
Carl Sagan had a great quote about this -- “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves - that we've been (taken.) so credulous. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back. (So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new bamboozles rise.)” - Carl Sagan (in other words, when someone is “In Too Deep” they no longer care about the truth. Instead, they care more about keeping that lie/belief alive)
"We're no longer interested in finding out the truth."
If you have found the truth you don't have to search it anymore.
great point and great quote. i was trying to find common ground. I think for most christians at some point truth was important, and through either indoctrination, personal experience, or confirmation bias etc they believed that truth to be Jesus, after that I can very much see what you are saying.
@@MindShift-Brandon -- "indoctrination, personal experience, or confirmation bias etc they believed that truth to be Jesus,"
-- And that is one of the main problems with belief in gods. Once someone thinks they "Know" the answer to everything, that being "god did it!", they stop searching for ANY other answers, including the real ones. The first reply to this thread is an example of that. According to him, he's found the "Truth", so why search for anything else.
That just shows how NOTHING has set Mankind back more than belief in gods. Sad... but True.
yes, you nailed it. Its stops so much progression and growth. Thanks for clarifying.
As always , a pretty good video, thanks for putting such a good message out here❤
Thank you much!
I believe that nobody could refuse a properly executed sales pitch to purchase a timeshare in Narnia.
Definitionally speaking.
lol, well darn it, guess its time to buy a wardrobe.
So they have room to blame either the atheist for being irrational, or the evangelist for doing a poor presentation. Shockingly, no room to falsify the possibility at all.
And, somewhat like Lucy, I grew up. So no talking lions for me.
As a deconverted Christian, I'm still recovering 10 years later. And I absolutely miss the sense of warmth and purpose I felt like I had when I was a Christian. But unfortunately my eyes were opened to the truth of the whole thing and I have to find happiness inside myself. Having been raised in a family that didn't appreciate my individuality it's taken a lot of time to get over it.
My experience as well. I just cannot deal with ridiculous word puzzles. It always comes down to a "heads I win, tales you loose," trap they've attempted to maneuver you into. As if you've never been played before. They're the clever ones aren't they?
So very clever, lol. Thanks for adding in, it is just beyond frustrating sometimes.
Your channel is going
To be huge! You are so articulate and clear. I love these videos so much, it is personally helping me heal from my religious trauma and baggage, and I take notes! Just in case
I’m confronted,
You make some good arguments and they’re so easy to back up when I can look in the Bible and read passages to
Confirm an issue.
I really related to when you said you miss worshipping a god, I have that same longing sometimes and it’s a real grief to have lost that. I have started to create more ritual in my day to day just to help with needing some sacredness. I also find nature helpful, not
Worshipping but taking it in in wonder and marveling at its beauty.
Thank you so much!
Hey Montana! Always love seeing you here. Thank you so much for this! I am really heartened to hear that they are personally helpful to you. And yes nature has helped replace that awe for me also. I like the idea and concept of ritual too, i think its innate, thus why religions are so popular, but i should try to incorporate more of that in my own life too. Thanks for sharing!
For myself i never "became an atheist", I just stopped being a theist.
Yes. This.
One book and 15000 to 45000 interpretations on what is the right way to end up in heaven. Let's hope you chose the right one ..
Its almost like, at that point, you have the same chance of being correct if you just choose none… lol thanks for watching.
I’ll opt for answer #45001: None of the Above!
Unfortunately, this is one of the fruits of the Protestant rebellion. It has resulted in so much confusion and division. This is why we need the Magisterium of the Church.
Great video!
I'm blown away by how articulate you are.
Thank you very much. Thats so kind
What’s frustrating to me is that I’ve had to become knowledgeable in philosophy, biology, cosmology, etc., to try & answer all the questions theists throw out. And all they need is “god did it” and “If YOU can’t explain it then I win because, god”. They can’t prove their god exists. The “proof” in the words of their holy book, is riddled with ridiculousness and verifiable untruths. Yet to them, god “creating” everything from nothing…totally believable. So frustrating!
Frustrating indeed. but I have loved my dive into those subjects since deconverting as I am sure you have also. A god of the gaps is no god at all.
There is a ton of believers who study philosophy, biology, cosmology etc, you are making a false dichotomy.
When they fall back on "god did it" I usually respond with "which god? Odin? Zeus? Brahma?".
They then narrow their answer down to the god of the Bible and Christianity. At that point I ignore the issues of how the universe began, how life began, etc and ask them for their evidence of the resurrection of Christ. So far, they have not presented any.
It may have been illegal, but there was one moment I witnessed that really stood out to me.
I was at the university I was attending at the time, and I was stuck in one of those "debates" with a theist. This was back before I had any knowledge or practice on how to handle them (not that I have much now, but at least it is some). I kept getting that "God did it," "mysterious ways," and all the other versions of that BS. It was infuriating, and I was straining to not explode over it, which I guess the theist saw and was exploiting.
Then someone from the audience that had gathered (this was in the public speaking area of the campus center) stepped up to us, and without any warning, clocked the theist across the face with the nastiest haymaker I had ever seen anyone throw. Everyone heard the bone crunch, and we all saw the blood fly from the theist's nose as he just dropped. Somehow, the theist stayed conscious, to which the audience member leaned over him and said, in the thickest Southern accent I had ever heard, "God's will, buddy. Might want to try figuring out that mysterious way."
I have not, do not, and will never condone such an action... but wow, was that cathartic. His action effectively diffused my anger. I have no idea what happened to that member, as he left immediately after he did that; I do remember a slight and brief increase in police presence in the wake of that, but I never learned if it was because of that member, let alone if the member was arrested or whatever.
The last thing I remember from that day was telling that theist as he picked himself back up, "Now you know how stupid your 'argument' is, that it can cause a violent response from who would fit the stereotype of your believers. Even Jesus denounced the Pharisees, and the whole time, you acted like one." Yeah, I know, not the best closer I or anyone could have said, and it is not as though theists are ever taught introspection, so I have no doubt that the theist turned that into a "persecution" story.
Still, seeing that theist get shut up (or down, whichever you prefer) in such an epic way really helped me. Of course, I still have never taken such action myself, but knowing that there are others, in all walks of life, that are as tired of that BS as you and I are does give me just a little bit of hope in humanity.
@@DavidRichardson153
This is a typical reaction when you are convicted of your sins.
Nothing makes me sigh harder than some random apologists who tell me they know what goes on in my mind better than I do.
sign is one word! lol I hear you man. Just so frustrating and sad.
Yeah, the newest one seems to be if you are a decent human you must believe in God, otherwise you are living a lie and are living contradictory your beliefs. Sigh
I say this with all appreciation for everything you say in these videos. I find myself listening g to your channel more than almost anything else these days. 🙏🏼🙏🏼
Disbeneficial isn't a word. Detrimental is.
Beautifulness isn't a word (from a different video). Beauty is the right word.
It's nitpicking, but given how incredibly knowledgeable you are, I'd think it best to remove flubs like this, and remove the possibility for any disingenuous attempts to desperately invalidate your rationale by nitpicking over crap like this, and distracting from the weakness of the opposing argument.
Thank you for your awesome channel! Glad to see the growth.
Too kind! And i really appreciate that feedback. Thank you!
In regards to video 4 around minute 18. The logic that Christians use can also be applied against them. They can be told that they know that the Koran is true and Allah exists but that they hate him and don't want to accept the truth. That their disbelief in the Koran is never based on intellectual grounds but on their pridefulness and that they will be held accountable at judgement.
this is a wonderful point, and one that doesnt get as much attention. You can take almost any christian rebuttal and then just use Islam or Hinduism to put them in the same boat as the atheist. But the response is always the same, they and they alone know the one true real god and religion. so frustrating!
God has demonstrated that he is the Lord of life and death by rising Jesus from the dead. (The quran which doesn't based on eyewitness accounts and is written 600 years after denies this)
@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 The NT claims that Jesus rose from the dead. Claims of resurrection were not unique stories in the ancient world. Also the gospels are accounts written 35-40+ years after the death of Jesus. The people that wrote them were not eyewitness and were likely written to make theological points rather than record history. It is likely that Jesus claimed to be a prophet, gathered a following, and was crucified when he caused social unrest that threatened roman authority in the region. That fact that Jesus made false prophecies shows that he was not from god, and if he was not from god and was just some dude he didn't resurrect.
@@MindShift-Brandon It really is frustrating. I kept my temper in check with the clip from clay jones but oh boy what terrible ideology. I have found that a lot of religions use the same arguments. Islam and Christianity for example, on prayer. I read a forum where a muslim was asking why Allah wasn't answering his prayers. He was told that his prayers might not be in accordance to Allah's will. Or that he was being told no or to wait for Allah's timing. Sounds familiar.
@@BluStarGalaxy
So because your opinion is that the gospels aren't eyewitness accounts then I should believe a book written by one man in a cave 600 years after Jesus. 🤣🤣🤣
I totally agree with you I can't hate something that I don't have evidence for.
100%. Thanks for watching.
I would disagree to some extent. Do I hate Darth Sidious? No. Do I dislike him? Kinda yeah. You can dislike fictional characters even though you know they aren't real. Hate is a strong word and I can't see myself hating something I don't think is real but I 100% see myself strongly disliking that thing.
Mentally strong and very knowledgeable, great communicator, completely unbiased and having a clarity on this topic I’ve never seen before. Great job. Still hard for me to accept.
That is maybe the best compliment i have ever gotten. Im curious, what is hard for you to accept? Also, going iff your last comment, feel free to share as much as youd like
@mindshiftskeptic well the compliment was well deserved! That’s why I thought it out.
Yeah that might be the longest comment on TH-cam ever... I’ll def write something up soon. Prob will post it in a few days.
To answer your question though, it’s hard for me to accept that there is no God, and when I say God I mean the Judeo-Christian God. And I’ll explain why in the write-up. That being said it’s hard to accept it too haha. Like I said, on the fence and always having so much doubt. Thanks for replying back, and your vids.
@mindshiftskeptic OK, I was able to write it all out probably as good as it’s gonna get… I’m gonna try to make this interesting and fun, since as you’re an atheist, I risk boring you to tears talking about seemingly magical nonsense.
So, I started believing in God when I was around 22. The story is a typical one, someone came up to me at work and asked me if I was Christian and I said no. And they said for me to pray the sinners pray and I did.
Then I started to see things. Not hallucinations. I started to see “spiritual” things, and spiritual truths. To go down this road you have to have an open mind and I think you might, so here goes
My favorite band is Queens of the Stone Age (remember, open mind). The main guy in it’s name is Joshua Michael Homme. I grew up w this band. They inspired me to get into music. I wanted to be a professional musician.
The name Joshua translates to Jesus, and means God is salvation. Michael means “who is like God”
So, while I was having my spiritual revelations, which had to do with realizing idolatry vs true worship of the real God, this guy Joshua died of an infection from MRSA. He was revived in the hospital, but his heart did stop and they had to do the defib thing.
Now… open mind… this guy died and was revived - correlation to Jesus.
This guy lived a life of debauchery and was a slave to his art (idols/sin) before this incident. You can hear the pain, depravity, and sense of being totally lost in his music, which is partly what made it so good.
When he had this medical issue, he fell into a deep depression, and was messed up physically for a while. He then wrote songs almost exclusively about God. It was as if he had a spiritual revelation, not unlike the one I was having at the same time.
Now, here’s some stuff for you to look into. But before you do… if you do, a brief summary:
first video is from the 2013 Like Clockwork album, this was right after the “born again” experience. Christians would call this the moment of salvation, with sanctification to follow. Homme is angry, sad, dejected about what’s happened throughout his whole life and it shows in the music. The spiritual awakening is when you realize what you’ve done. You realize who you were before Christ. You realize the damage you were causing to yourself and others. Homme had lived the sex drugs rock and roll lifestyle and it reflected in his music. I think he realized that he was blind to the fact that he was influencing people negatively. It’s a shock. You realize you’re the bad guy and you’re fighting for the wrong team. So first vid…
m.th-cam.com/video/C9OfBcjyxKY/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUoaSBhcHBlYXIgbWlzc2luZyBxdWVlbnMgb2YgdGhlIHN0b25lIGFnZQ%3D%3D
Then the album after that ‘Villains’ reflects an “ahh F it” attitude, I’m just gonna keep going, not gonna repent, going to keep it business as usual. Below is what the album cover was
norselandsrock.com/qotsa-villains/
After this, and I don’t like just throwing the business out there, but it is out there… Homme got a divorce, and had a rough custody battle for his kids, and had like 12 ppl close to him die. He also had cancer briefly but had it removed w no further issues, I think. The next album, In Times New Roman, has this song and vid in it, referencing/blaming God in the end of the vid.
m.th-cam.com/video/F3Y6DLQNgAQ/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUmbmVnYXRpdmUgc3BhY2UgcXVlZW5zIG9mIHRoZSBzdG9uZSBhZ2U%3D
👆It makes me think of the man who builds his house on the sand verse
Here’s another song from Like Clockwork, the album which has the most direct lyrics about God
m.th-cam.com/video/eTRPC59k8ng/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUVa2VlcCB5b3VyIGV5ZXMgcGVlbGVk
The other albums are more obscure in their lyrics but def revolve around God and Homme’s unwillingness to let go of his idolatry, and the consequences that follow. I encourage you to listen to all 3 albums, and the ones before them, but I’m biased for my fav band.
So, I’m sure I sound like an obsessed fan and religious loon, but this is how I believe God reveals himself. It’s through personal experience, and I can only do my best to communicate these things to you second hand.
So, then there’s Thom Yorke from Radiohead. All Radiohead songs after OK computer in 1997 are about God. All lyrics are cryptic, but once you know who the muse is - God, it’s pretty much self evident. Great, another band thing, who cares? Well the name Thomas is biblical, Thomas was the doubting disciple. I’ll only say that much and give you some songs. Listen to them at your leisure if you feel like it
m.th-cam.com/video/9wCJPm19XYQ/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUScmVja29uZXIgcmFkaW9oZWFk
m.th-cam.com/video/GBcdeyzec_Q/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUVbnVkZSByYWRpb2hlYWQgbHlyaWNz
m.th-cam.com/video/-PDGrYjFg0c/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygURYXJwZWdnaSByYWRpb2hlYWQ%3D
m.th-cam.com/video/yxWBd840E9g/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUadGhvbSB5b3JrZSBhdG9tcyBmb3IgcGVhY2U%3D
m.th-cam.com/video/DpVfF4U75B8/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUSaW5nZW51ZSB0aG9tIHlvcmtl
m.th-cam.com/video/ThlmqhreuZ8/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUiYnJhaW4gaW4gYSBib3R0bGUgdGhvbSB5b3JrZSB2aWRlbw%3D%3D
Again, revelation of God, shown idolatry’s bad, continues in idolatry - bad results
So, Thomas the doubter… the name Thomas literally means twin, the nickname Jesus gave to the disciple. I believe he gave him this nickname because he was double-minded. As if there were two of him. Just speculation, but I do share the name, and again - personal experience. But anyway, the full name was Judas Thomas. Judas means praise or thanksgiving which has the same meaning as Judaism or Jewish. So I think that there’s some tie to the name Thomas and the Jewish people. I can def say for myself and most other believers I’m sure, that we can relate to the Jewish people in the Old Testament not wanting to give up idols and not wanting to ever fully trust and follow God. But another thing to think about when listening to Radiohead.
And then you have G.G. Allin. Born Jesus Christ Allin. Yeah… so look him up. Watch some of the talk shows he was on. Here’s a section taken from Wikipedia and some videos.
“Allin was born Jesus Christ Allin at Weeks Memorial Hospital in Lancaster, New Hampshire, the younger of two sons… He was given this name because his father told his wife that Jesus Christ had visited him, and told him that his newborn son would be a great man in the vein of the Messiah…”
m.th-cam.com/video/btDnJ7T9FD4/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUSZ2cgYWxsaW4gaW50ZXJ2aWV3
m.th-cam.com/video/NzL9-IMERqk/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUIZ2cgYWxsaW4%3D
So these are three examples of famous ppl, but of course, I look into all peoples names and what they mean, and either by power of suggestion or because God actually names people after who they are/how they are like, that’s a big piece of “evidence” for me.
That and astrology, Western and Eastern, which I think carry merit, which is so bizarre and insane to say, and shouldn’t be so but seemingly is valid.. to me at least when I looked into it. If it’s real, which is unknowable for certain, it speaks to some kind of design which would point to a designer.
I admit I’ve not even read the Bible cover to cover. I’ve read the entire New Testament and parts of the Old. I find the same things you find disgusting just as disgusting and so I’m a troubled Christian, or I’m a deluded fool. So if you want, look into these things and get back to me on what you think. If nothing else, hopefully you like the music.
Thanks and take care. I’ll keep watching. No hard feelings if I don’t hear back, I know how crazy all of that sounded. Maybe I’ll pull myself out of this one day.
Thanks for another great video! You’re an amazing teacher/speaker/presenter. I hope you never quit!
Wow, thank you!
It is the craziest thing to me how deeply inaccurately atheists are depicted in the Christian world. When i told my parents that i was an atheist the first thing they did was show me the Case for Christ movie (the fiction not the documentary). The main character was an atheist that converted later, and all i could think was.... this guy is just an asshole. I turned to my parents and said "Is this how yall think atheists are? I have friends that are atheists and they definitely don't act like that." And legitimately all my parents said to me was "You have friends that are atheists?" I couldn't believe that was their take away, nevermind the fact that i was literally one of the leaders in a Christian organization at my Uni (It was all fine and dandy to have them as friends to preach the word to them but heaven forbid that I'm friends with them in general) . That's when i knew that they where why too indoctrinated to have this discussion.
thank you for sharing! my blood pressure went up just reading that. By the way, I read the case for christ at one my weakest points while still a christian and it helped some for a min until I was brave enough to read The Case Against The Case For Christ...That was a huge step for me in my deconversion.
@@MindShift-Brandon Yeah we were shown of the documentary when I was about 15, I literally hardly remember anything from it but I do remember my 15 year old self being thoroughly convinced. But for my 21 year old self watching, even if they had every piece of evidence that was 100% convincing, the caricature of a main character was so distracting that i couldn't focus on anything else (Man was just straight up verbally abusing his wife). And then I thought about the God's not Dead movies and all the Christian shows I would watch as a child and thought Oh my God, this is just how they think atheist act. They really think that atheist are a monolith, no wonder they were so worried when I told them I didn't believe anymore.
yes they completely demonized atheists on purpose, and it worked/ still is working for so many.
Man you are greatly appreciated !! Thank You ❤❤❤❤❤
So kind. Thank you very much!
@@MindShift-Brandon you are welcome young man!
Thank you, Brandon, for building a wonderful channel, and for all the careful planning and preparation that goes on behind the scenes. You are saying what needs to be said, one by one calling to book all the elephants in the room. There are detractors, to be sure, but this is completely normal and to be expected; just as it is philosophically and practically impossible to build a piece of furniture without leaving behind offcuts and shavings.
great analogy and very kind words, thank you, Grant!
Reading the bible and starting to really see the character of god in the OT was part of my deconversion. The psychotic genocidal tendencies, narcissism, insecurity, vindictiveness, etc. SOOOO many negative traits in a being that is supposed to loving and logical. The character is god seems to very much like that of many men that have been in power across history. Hmmmm...maybe that's because men wrote the bible in the first place. They created god in their image. It was never the other way around. And SOOO many ancient cultures have done exactly the same thing.
Right. Just nothing unique nor divine
I really appreciate your presentation style. I would say that so far you are second only to Drew of GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic in the counter apologics TH-cam sphere. You take this seriously, and seem to know it well.
thank you so much, Brian. Even being in the same sentence as Drew is a great compliment. Appreciate this encouragement very much!
Brandon you are on a whole different level well done sir!
Thank you so very much for your constant kindness!
I just came across your channel, excellent, thank you. I especially appreciate your views that we are not better than other people and that there are things that you value and miss about religion. I went through a phase myself where I thought I was better because I didn't believe in God anymore, but I realized that I really wasn't I was just lucky to break through the beliefs I had as a child and keep seeking and asking questions. I actually recently returned to a sort of religion and that is Unitarian Universalism (I hate the name, it doesn't really apply to this group anymore!) the reason I did is their history of of standing for justice, human rights, and working to make this one life that I know I have better. I don't have to have any god beliefs there, but I have regained some respect for some good things religion can offer like purpose and community. Although I really could go without the hymn singing, LOL!
Thank you. Appreciate that. Ill have to look up UU
very good. This is a daily issue for me online too, i have to constantly explain, i'm conceding God exists for the sake of argument just momentarily in order to make a point about his character according to their holy books. Ray Comfort is one of the worst for deliberately misunderstanding this.
This was a brilliant way of putting it, iv'e just found this channel just now and I like it. Nice one.
Welcome, new friend! Thanks for your kind words and empathy. Ray is terrible at this! Appreciate you being here.
They’re prevented from accepting valid complaints about their religion, because if someone did have a valid complaint, it would invalidate a perfect Bible from a perfect god.
yes, i think you are quite right.
"If the bible is 99% right then it's 100% wrong."
i havent heard that one before. I like that!
Apologetics are like a magic trick: it's largely a case of spotting where they're trying to deceive you. (And they're _always_ trying to deceive you.)
They are really good magicians, what with all the turning god invisible.
"they're always trying to deceive you" ---
"the suspicion of them hath deceived many, and hath detained their minds in vanity"
(Sirach 3)
@@andrewferg8737 a silly quote from a passage that, at first glance, appears to basically tell people _(inter alia)_ not to be inquisitive or think critically? Yeah, that’s really a good advertisement for the apologetic position(!) You’re not supposed to say the quiet part out loud when it comes to apologetic charlatanry, you know!
A good study of *logic* and the numerous kinds of *fallacies* people easily fall for is quite helpful in spotting the deception.
@@jasons8479 "study of logic" ---
Existence in and of itself, to be, truth, or logic are ontological synonyms for the transcendent: that which is without beginning or end and which cannot 'not be' as is demonstrated through antinomies such as "there is no truth" or "nothing is", etc. Existence in and of itself, or any of its synonyms, is the singularly self-evident axiom from which all else is derived. That axiom is the referent for the term God as used in classical theology.
I admire your patience in the way you explain stuff.
I try to do that but sometimes when I talk to theists I just lose it and say
"God is just Santa Claus for adults!! Grow up FFS!!"
😂
ha, i understand the reaction for sure! But yes I try to temper it all down for the sake of communication.
@@MindShift-Brandon "I try to temper it all down for the sake of communication" --- Amen.
I have a personal rule. 'Don't talk politics or religion'. I will honestly answer a question if directed at me. If the individual starts to get heated, I just shrug and say 'Hey. You asked. I have neither the interest nor skill to attempt to change your mind.' Typically, the individual and I will resume talking, (perhaps the following day) avoiding the previous subject. I have not encountered anyone, so far, who acted unreasonably. (But I don't have a YT channel. I applaud those who do, but I do not have the temperament for that noble endeavor.)
Ha yes. Its a great rule and for the most part in my personal life i have the same. But i willingly admit i opened this can of worms here online. Lol
🤣🤣🤣...dude i hear you!!
I have just recently started watching your channel and am really enjoying your work. I think Christians are so adamant about labeling atheists liars because an honest atheist does not fit into their theology. If they believe that anyone who does not believe goes to hell then they have to blame us for our lack of belief. Otherwise, their "loving god" is sending us to hell simply for being wrong. That is pretty obviously unjust and destroys their preferred view of God as perfectly just and kind.
Thanks for being here and for commenting. What you say is a sad truth. It just sucks they are so blinded by that dogma.
It's funny that they tell us we can't talk about Christianity because we aren't Christian yet they always talk about atheism or other religions despite not being atheist or part of another religion. The hypocrisy isn't even funny anymore it's just depressing.
Agreed. The hypocrisy is just terrible
Or other things they dont really understand like evolution
I miss a lot about religion. I miss having rituals with my family and community, singing songs and saying prayers together. Like many atheist, I tried too hard and wanted it to all be true. Overthinking religion tends to lead to either fundamentalism or atheism.
ahh i miss those as well, and yes thats a great observation that it can push to either extreme.
I agree. I miss being able to pray. Now, when I catch myself praying, I shake my head and mourn the loss of the belief that it meant something.
@@pinky9440 Don’t stop, it still means something. And it’s still capable of giving the same relief it gave before. Praying can help by talking out your problems and ideas, it provides an opportunity to put thoughts into words, it can help calm your pulse & racing thoughts, etc. No one was listening, but if it was helping you before, it can still help. Prayer can be a way to speak to & bring out the best part of yourself.
@LOwens-xf8yo - You are right. I didn't think of it that way. Even though my prayers were never answered, it did bring comfort. I guess it is similar to writing in a journal, you "voice" your troubles and think about it and possible solutions, in a calm manner without stressing.
@@pinky9440 Amen!
Fantastic video Brandon! That guy at the end talking about the properly presented gospel and wicked atheists clearly has no understanding of the issues we have. It would be easy for us to say that Christians don’t want it to NOT be true lol.
yes exactly. how they cannot see both sides is insane
"that Christians don’t want it to NOT be true" ----
Don't want Goodness to not be true? Absolutely. But evil can't even imagine Goodness, so why would evil believe in Goodness?
"they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us...?"
(Matthew 8)
"there were they in great fear, where no fear was"
(Psalm 53)
"For whereas wickedness is fearful, it is because it bears witness to its own self-condemnation: for a troubled conscience always forecasts grievous things. For fear is nothing else but a yielding up of the confidence of thought... an ignorance of that cause which brings the torment... which is their own soul failing them: so that a sudden and unlooked for fear comes upon them...and they become to themselves more grievous than the darkness"
(Wisdom 17)
"And Jesus said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?"
(Mark 4)
"Stop imagining the worst, and believe in Goodness!"
(Mark 1)
Speaking as an atheist, I do not consider myself in any way obliged to accept ancient biblical claims that cannot be proven to be authentic. There is no supporting evidence for divine law, just as there is no supporting evidence for that 'son of god' stuff. I have no reason to think that the person I am can survive brain death, so the notion of heaven & hell has no real meaning to me. It wouldn't matter to me what afterlife belief options are available.
Thank you for your input to this discussion. I hope to hear from many atheists in these comments and see where everyones stance is.
@@MindShift-Brandon As you can see, my personal stance on this issue is based upon the lack of supporting evidence. It's like being challenged to explain how water could be turned into wine, when there is no proof that water was turned into wine. People make stuff up, and I think that making stuff up was at the heart of the bible's problem.
Thank you for your calm, reasonable response to such vitriol. You are a voice for reason.
"If I don't like Voldemort, it doesn't mean I believe in him" That was so god damned funny.
I really understand your frustration for the guy in video 4, it's so manipulative - it's essentially gaslighting. It's what an abuser will do, they'll invalidate someone's feelings by getting them to doubt themselves. "If you reject the gospel, you're not intellectual." is the exact same energy as "I'm not being hurtful, you're just being too emotional." Unless you arrive at the exact conclusion a Christian wants you to, you're just stupid (or evil). Just in the same way that if you question your partner's behaviour as hurtful, you're just being unreasonable
Even if you remove malice, it's just the kind of conversation that can only end horribly. Nothing is worse than when two parties disagree and talk right past each other instead of validating the disagreement to confront it at that point.
Love this comment. yes gaslighting is the exact right term! It is so frustrating and he really should know better at this point. I understand when an everyday christian just cant fathom it, but cmon! Thank you for sharing.
Great point at the 21-minute mark where you ask, "why can't all Christians properly deliver the gospel message?" Why is it THAT complicated?
And indeed it is! Coming from a Reformed-Calvinist background, it was quite telling, in retrospect, to witness all the division and rancor - even among Reformed Calvinists! - about just what this "gospel message" is!! Reformed Calvinists, the ones who take Scripture literally and insist that it is ALL God-breathed and easy and simple to understand, even THEY can't agree. There was and still is a practical civil war in Reformed Calvinist circles between the followers of R.C. Sproul and his followers on one side, and John MacArthur and his followers on the other, with each side accusing the other of preaching a "false gospel!"
Each side is using the same exact bible. Each side insists on a literal hermeneutic when reading scripture. Each side insists on the "perspicuity of scripture." Each of these guys (Sproul and MacArthur) have written numerous biblical commentaries, and each backs up their arguments from that same bible using the same hermeneutic.
And yet, even these guys - these Kingpin apologists from the SAME denomination - cannot agree what "the gospel" means?
Right?! Beyond obvious when you are no longer trying to excuse it that it just doesnt work.
This was good. I never have liked the claim that people only reject Christianity because they're evil and don't want to be held to account for it. Even when I was at my most devout I understood that from the outside it really had to look pretty fantastical. And it's funny, the guy's assertion is that the Bible properly presented will snare everyone, well that wasn't really the case with me, cuz I was flat out appalled by it when I actually looked deeper into it on my own. And that line you said, "I didn't fail the Gospel, the Gospel failed me." That hits hard. 😔
Thanks for adding in. We now have two verified cases or at least personal cases against his crazy claim, ha!
If I "Just wanted to sin" I'd be a believer and wear my "not perfect Just forgiven" t- shirt.
I think the reverse is actually true. Believers don't believe because they've rationally concluded that the gospels are true. "They just want to worship"
In my case, no, I hadn't intellectually examined the gospels when I became an atheist because I've never been a Christian. Nor had I examined all other religions. Something something burden of proof.
That claim by Clay Jones had a few very important caveats that he snuck in.
"I think the most important is that nobody rejects the bible for >purely intellectual reasons
Two wonderful points!. Thank you. I don’t even know what it would mean for christianity to be true at this point. I am so confused about gods character and the rules to it all from his word that im not sure what it would look like. But i do know it involves an awful lot of bad stuff and i think we can do better.
It is indeed annoying as hell when some believers pretend to know what atheists believe or why they believe it better than they do.
And to add insult to injury, after displaying such an awesome feat of psychic ability, they may even accuse you of being an atheist because you are too prideful.
Lol that last point is icing on the cake. How nuts !
That thumbnail was awesome, best video yet, content-wise imho Every apologist should have to watch this before speaking on atheism.
hey thank you! I do enjoy the creative side of this as well. And glad to hear you enjoyed this episode so much. Really kind!
Well done. It is soooooo frustrating trying clear up Christian willful confusion, ignorance, and straw manning. It never ends. They really don't want to understand the truth about former believers and unbelievers.. To understand would be their own path out of the Christian delusion.
thank you, Bill and you are right. If i was a real christain and I really dont believe anymore, what would that mean for their potential? Its a defense for sure. But all i can do is hope 1 or 2 people start to rethink a few things.
@@MindShift-Brandon Yah. Most won't listen, but a few probably will. I'm in several debate groups and attempt to correct people on the points you've made. Myself and others repeat this over and over to the same people again and again, and they just refuse to understand, and keep repeating these same false criticisms. Maddening. I read some of the comments in your videos and see the same nonsense from believers there. I think it really gets down to a lack of critical thinking skills. That doesn't come over night. They are handicapped. Maybe continued interaction with unbelievers might help that development. I know that developing critical thinking skills was the basic critical foundation for my eventual deconversion. And, I've spent 30 plus years since my deconversion refining my ability to think and reason more clearly and accurately. I appreciate your ability to articulate these issues with accuracy and clarity.
@@MindShift-Brandon PS. I'm encouraged to see your channel growing in numbers so quickly. When I started watching it about a month ago it seems like there were only about 400 subscribers. Now I see it's about 2500. Great. I wish you the best. Your vids are excellent.
Thanks so much, we are getting there! and you are right in your other comment about the critical thinking, it seems its at direct odds with faith. I do expect many to stay stuck in their ways, and the ones that join the debate groups or hound atheist youtubers are probably the least likely, but i have to believe there are some quite believers that happen along videos like this, and as the christian would say, get a seed planted.
@@MindShift-Brandon The challenge for me has been finding and applying methods to encourage development of critical thinking skills in those who've not developed them much. No easy task when dealing with deeply indoctrinated, emotionally motivated minds.
i got "immersed" at age 7 strictly because my older brother and our best friend were doing so. i guess it didn't take because i got a severe whipping from both parents at age 12 for saying "goddammit", then i was sent to my room - this was back when being sent to one's room actually meant something. ah, what a club to belong to.
Man, where did you find "Pastor Strawman"? He is so cringe. The worst part is there is likely a church full of true believers nodding their heads and frequently saying "Amen".
ha! which one? Ever since posting this content, my feed is full of this stuff and many commenters have sent me clips like these to react to. I had no idea how much was out there.
@@MindShift-Brandon I mean the first guy, with the grey beard and dark complexion. He looks to me like what I picture Moses or The prophet Jeremiah looking like.
ahh yes Clay Jones. Ha love that. you know what i coulnt stop thinking is how he sounded a bit like Norm Macdonald. I kept waiting for the punchline.
Apologist: "You're wicked!"
Me: "Dude, you have no idea! Do you know how many times a day I want my hometown turned into a pile of radioactive ash? Probably this is the 5th time today. I HATE people. Like literal revulsion. And I hate money. And socializing."
Apologist: "...."
I wish somebody would turn around and say who made God and was he made out of nothing?
Very good points. Atheism does NOT bring answers. It brings questions and, for the curious ones, leads them to start looking for answers based on actual consolidated knowledge.
Like... "What are the possibilities for the Big Bang to enter the expansion phase people call its beginning and what has been observed so far in favor of said possibilities ?"
Which is also the reason why gods are not out of the plate, it's just that none has so far deemed us worthy to drop by, influence one of the many many devices we use to mesure gravity and violated physics enough to write in morse : " Hey suckers, I created your universe."
All we have is physics.
love this, so well stated.
Thank you, I've been working on the critics of some cosmological models that my knowledge can still allow me to understand (and some are wonky, like the pseudo scientific "Janus model" that is based on a time inversion of particles... The problems are that the search for the chronon has brought no results so far, whereas we should have found a chronon... Yesterday ? :D And that it forgets about the antimatter and the unstable atoms we observed 60 years ago.)
Universe out of nothing ? That's just Krauss... And the hypothesis works but we still lack a few datas.
Exactly. Christians generally have similar beliefs that cannot change (unless they have to in order to get new converts and keep current members) while atheism allows for pretty much anything. Are we in a simulation? Let's try and find out. Is evolution and the big bang true? Let's find out. etc
The biggest issue when it comes to conversations like this is most people are very set in their ways. It is difficult and takes a lot of time and strength to not only look at your own beliefs, but to truly attempt to understand others. The average person never even thinks to put in the effort to understand why they believe their own beliefs let alone others.
Agreed but it worked for me. Took years and exposure and little seeds of truth and doubt here and there etc. i can only hope to pay it forward a bit.
I am in complete awe you are the best of the best
Man, thank you!
My experience has been much like yours. Starting at about 13 years old, the discovery of science opened my eyes to the fact that the Bible was not literally true, and so I asked myself "what is the meaning of this obviously fictional tale". It was in the process of searching for this "god" that I realized that this was not about our physical reality, but more about our psychology. Through the study of human psychology I found out why people "believe" in gods and in time, why Christianity became such an influential religion. I used to try to convince Christians that their beliefs were silly and unfounded, but then I came to understand that not everyone had the ability to reason away false beliefs. In a way, I think many of us need beliefs, because without a reasoned understanding of the universe and of ones own mind, belief in a god may be all some of us have. I feel lucky to have been allowed, as a child, to make my own choice of what is true and what is not. My parents never told me that God is real. They let me figure it out on my own. Having full ownership of my mind has been life's greatest blessing. Ignorance may be bliss,, but knowledge is power over fear.
love your last few lines there. Well said! Thank you for taking the time to share all this. Appreciate you being here.
@@MindShift-Brandon Thank you my friend. Freedom is the cornerstone of knowledge. Atheism is the freedom to seek truth.
"about 13 years old, the discovery of science opened my eyes" ----
“A little natural philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in natural philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion” (Francis Bacon “Of Atheism” 1601)
“Posterity will one day laugh at the foolishness of modern materialistic philosophers. The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator. I pray while I am engaged at my work in the laboratory… Science brings men nearer to God”
(Louis Pasteur c. 1895)
“There is no conflict between science and religion”
(Georges Lemaitre, NY Times 1933)
“the opinion time and again has been expressed… that scientific truth cannot be brought into harmony with the religious interpretation of the world. Although I am convinced of the unassailability of scientific truth in its own sphere, I have never been able to dismiss the content of religious thinking simply as a stage in human consciousness which we have superseded, as a part which we can dispense with in the future. So I have continually been forced during my life to ponder on the relationship between these two worlds of the spirit, for I have never been able to doubt the truth of what they are pointing to.”
(Werner Heisenberg “Scientific and Religious Truth” Cross Currents Vol. 24, No. 4 Winter 1975, pp. 463-473)
"power over fear" ---
"For whereas wickedness is fearful, it is because it bears witness to its own self-condemnation: for a troubled conscience always forecasts grievous things. For fear is nothing else but a yielding up of the confidence of thought... an ignorance of that cause which brings the torment... which is their own soul failing them: so that a sudden and unlooked for fear comes upon them...and they become to themselves more grievous than the darkness"
(Wisdom 17)
"And Jesus said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?"
(Mark 4)
@@timhallas4275 "Freedom is the cornerstone of knowledge" ---
Freedom is the ability to participate in the good. To do good requires a free and active will. One cannot do good against their will.
Q: Why is there something rather than nothing? A: I don't know. Q: How did the Universe come into existence? A: I don't know. If you have an answer other than "I don't know" then you owe us loads and loads of evidence.
Thank you for this. As always, you're a great communicator.
My pleasure. Thank you!
One of the best videos out there..💫
oh man, thank you so much!
Atheists, as a group, are only vocal as a reaction. In societies where religion’s role has been whittled away, you see considerably of less of this. In the West, Christians brought this upon themselves and those who act all upset always fail to see it.
My ex was Norwegian, born in raised in as close to post-Christian an environment as it gets. Until he met me, he had never even known someone who had ever believed and was convinced this was a thing of the past and in parts of the world where access to information was still poor. “Faith” was a completely void concept that he could not even comprehend.
His is not “the” Norwegian experience but it is very telling. Guess how many atheist groups there were around him…none. There was simply no point.
Being an atheist was the default.
I CANNOT EVEN IMAGINE! yes its a response for sure. Thats why there are no atheism groups against believers in zeus. Very few still believe in him and no one acts out of that belief to the harm of those around them. If that was the case, youd see a reaction. Exactly. lets hope christianity someday gets to the same level as greek mythology.
@@MindShift-Brandon When he found out about Americans who claimed to believe in the Nordic pantheon, the reaction was priceless. I wish I had filmed it. Just sheer wonder at the folly of it all. Although there are some people in Scandinavia who believe the same, but he had never met any.
And you’re right, he too had never seriously assessed Christian or any other religious claim. The same way we don’t worry ourselves over Paul Atreides being the Kwisatz Haderach.
I used to tell the people at Catholic school that they should be very thankful for people like me, who fought them tooth and nail because there will come a day when sheer indifference will be the reaction…and it’s game over, then.
clay, john and braxton:
Do I deserve eternal torture for not believing in magic?
How does my being unable to believe in magic make me wicked?
Do you agree with yahweh that torture is a form of justice?
How could you forget the amazing Christopher Hitchens?
trust me, the shame is all mine when I realized!
Christopher Hitchens knows the truth.
😅😊
@@MindShift-BrandonBrandon, don't worry about it! I'm going to drink some Johnny Walker Black this weekend (Hitch's fav) for you and that will forgive your "sin!" 😅
This is the first video of yours I've watched since seeing you on The Line, and since it's been a couple of months old now I'm hoping that you've eased up on the pause elimination. Without some natural pauses your ideas can get lost in the unending flow of words. I look forward to adding your videos in my weekly viewing. Thank you for adding your voice to the fight.
Thank you and yes i have!
@@MindShift-Brandon fantastic!!! Thanks for taking that constructive criticism.
The apologist calling people like me "wicked", is angry that we don't send him any money or live life on out knees ! No love like Christian hate !
I was actually appalled by him, and thats hard to do for me these days.
All those other new subscribers followed me!
I subscribed last week because I enjoy watching admirable people speaking wiith the wisdom they never get bored of watching videos of TH-cam Atheists many ways
They jump on THEIR definition of “atheism” because it’s easier to fight that than to actually discuss the idea of, “I don’t believe in any of the deities that have been presented to me and I don’t see a reason that I should.” Why fight steel when you can burn straw?
This is an excellent comment. Thank you.
@@MindShift-Brandon just restating what we have all been saying and they refuse to hear. Thanks for the love!
See when I get the “you just hate god” faithful people I simply respond with “No I dont hate your god, I can’t hate what doesn’t exist. But I can hate the ignorance his idea instills in others.” I don’t attack the deity directly but the supposed inspiration that deity brings about and the harm that comes with it.
I feel your frustration.
There is no difference between the arrogant, angry, apathetic Atheist and the blind, brash, bullheaded Christian. They equally annoy me. They are both arguing over something they pretend to know. For nobody "knows", and, as you eluded to, we should be after Truth to begin with.
Science is a methodology. Not anti-theology. Belief should be the beginning of learning. Not the end. The "something from Nothing" argument does nothing (pun) to prove the existence of Yahweh or any Noun-god running the cosmos. We simply do not know. I feel that whatever runs the cosmos isn't anything animal or human or Noun-like. We only assume that It is because we are humans. Had we been sentient fish, Yahweh would be.. assumed to be a Giant Fish.
Very well put
All we need is: of all the billions of things we DO know about this place where we live, absolutely ZERO of those things has required "goddidit" as an explanation, or even a partial explanation. The chances are that "goddidit" will NEVER be even a small part of the explanation of things we do not yet understand.
I am one of those atheists who not even if (a) god of any flavor appeared in front of me I would believe it to be magic... I subscribe to Clarkes third law, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" (Or perhaps Shermer's last law "Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God." )
thats an interesting point. And to my agnostic side, this is the most likely cause for so much of our unknowns, brain in vat, AI, Aliens, Etc, but I think a god is not outside the realm of possibility, and id be open to at least believing, worshipping and following are a whole separate matter. What I do know is, its not this abrahamic god. Thanks for the input.
@@MindShift-Brandon anyhow with this video you got my subscription, thanks for what you are doing =)
Appreciate that very much!
2:15 You forgot Hitchens?! And you mentioned Daniel Dennett first? I personally really like Dennett because he's more modest and measured than Harris and Dawkins, but he seems to be the least notorious of the horsemen and the most likely to slip peoples' minds when listing them all out.
yes i always think of him because of his, in my opinion, bad take on free will especially in contrasts to Harris. Harris is my favorite of the 4 by far and then Hitch. No idea how I forgot the most prominent of them all though!
Dennett is the one who said, “There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion.”
I'd go further than that and am comfortable in saying it.
"All these apologists are f@#kin liars"
You forgot the late, great CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS. Damn.
Also in the current day I think people like Matt Dillahunty are continuing the fight.
And Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Yes hes a great example and ha i cant believe i couldn’t think of hitch!
Also the idea that people would choose to indulge in their pet sin over a relationship with the creator of the universe who will lead them through every difficult moment. Someone they can talk with / pray to about anything (because He already knows) and will not only listen but will support, guide and help them through it. Not to mention a community of support of like minded folks.
Nah, I’d rather lie to myself so I can sin.
Nobody says that. Non believers simply don’t believe. The evidence isn’t sufficient. In most cases it really is that simple.
For sure! Well said.
And has been frequently said, if all we wanted to do was sin, we could have stayed a Christian and done that, then just asked for forgiveness. Why bother with being ostracized, demonized, etc if it was unnecessary?
apologists and preachers aim at the sheep in the flock by attempting to either scare and discourage the weak or blind the curious with lies. if nothing else works they can always use the threat of sin and hell like any proper mafia boss.
so much ammo in that arsenal. All we can do is shoot back. Thanks for being here.