6v6 wasn't perfect and I was open to 5v5 initially, but I feel time has proven the downsides are too strong and the primary upside has ended up coming down almost entirely to queue times. To me, that simply isn't good enough justification for sticking with an otherwise (especially for Tanks) inferior composition. There's a lot of ways to combat queue times and incentivize playing Tank in 6v6, there's very little one can do to address the extreme pressure and rock/paper/scissors inherent to tanking in 5v5.
Yeah, they had their chance, the balance is dogshit, and they can't blame Bobby kotick for everything, are we seriously going to believe that bobby was there like "nah you guys are going to buff Orisa and roadhog"? That was their decision, and we're 10 seasons into this game, having the same conversations over and over again because they are not on the same page as their players, and if they were they wouldn't have buffed Orisa, which is just one of this game's problems
@@pepekovallin They only look at Bronze and ignore anyone higher ranked. They literally just want the dumpster squad that can't aim to feel like they're having fun. That's why they buffed her and why they changed projectile sizes.
@@Adventist1997 I'm gonna be honest, if they actually looked at bronze players they'd have nerfed orisa a long time ago because she is probably the worse tank to deal with in a low rank lobby because no one shoots the supports, I think it's more about them listening to people that don't want to improve in the game, thus giving us the bigger hitboxes and health pools, and bronze people shouldn't be put on the same category as them, bronze players don't like being bronze
@@pepekovallinThe majority of overwatch players are dogshit. Blizzard's approach is to appease the dogshit players so that they'll stick around and POSSIBLY buy season passes/skins. I mean, OWL literally died because it's so unenjoyable to watch a team lose their tank and basically lose the entire fight. At least with 2 tanks there was another tank that could keep the fight alive and potentially stall for the other tank to come back. But hey, that's just a theory, a GAME THEORY.
I think more players would be really good for the game, it lets casual players relax and competitive players are less likely to face a full team stack.
I will say you are one of 2 OW TH-camrs I actually trust to give information without being overly emotional about everything with the other being Spilo. You aren’t arguing why 6v6 sucks or why 5v5 sucks you are arguing why the question doesn’t matter because we aren’t going back.
Incorrect now. If you play 6v6 in the 6v6 custom, the games are a lot more fair and fun, and it’s just so much more of an enjoyable experience. Current overwatch in 6v6 has proven 6v6 is better.
@@abudgie6909sorry to inform you that you are still gonna get countered Even in games like cod their is counter and having heroes with different abilities their is inevitably counter picking
11:54 _"To be tank main, you need to be OK with the pressure of playing aggressively, while the entire enemy team tries to kill you. Which is why support mains don't play tank."_ Honestly, as ex tank main that now OTPs Moira, I get the same thrill on her of this without the downsides of playing tank. I can just YOLO around, do whatever, and still win games. Playing Moira with a more aggressive playstyle allows me to in effect be the off-tank player that also can heal a bunch, while having the agency that tanks lack. (I played in the old days and hit Diamond in ow1 as Rein before role queue even was a thing.) Though I have to say, with the new tank designs in the game, I think there's heroes in the tank lineup that can fit both damage and support mindset. Junker Queen is a good example of a buffed up shotgun dps, and Zarya a buffed up support. Mauga has two big guns that go brrrrrrr if that's all you want to do. The thing with tanks back in 6v6 is that they had greater carry potential. If you want to imagine what it felt like to go from 2 tanks to 1 tank, imagine if we removed one support and made each support a raid boss to compensate. Now it would be easy to counter individual supports, and the supports would have to counterswap each other constantly, and you'd have more pressure on you to always perform while you are delegated to a much more difficult role as there isn't another support that can pick up the slack for you, or help you if you're dove, etc. It would be like, say you're on a single support Lucio, and enemy team goes Ana and Sombra. You can't heal your team through anti, and you can't use your escape tool of wall riding as Sombra constantly hacks you, as Ana nades you. So you go Kiriko to deal with it. They respond in turn, and you have to as well, etc. And so the counterswap-watch of support begins. Point being, I think we will find more people that enjoy playing tank if we have a second tank. Will it affect queue times in a positive way? Not necessarily, but "player retention" (how much and how long they play, and if they come back) is also important for free to play games, and I'd argue that it's next up on the list for a for-profit company to look for in their game. A game with a better reputation will always be more attractive towards newer players (i.e. people playing it saying they enjoy their time more).
P.S. it's probably waaaaay easier to just do a large balance patch (similar to S9) to fit current tanks into 6v6, rather than redesign all tank heroes to not be susceptible to hard counters. Samito's recent video kinda brought this to its final conclusion. Either you make all tanks play more similar to each other, or you keep hero identity but go for 6v6.
I gotta ask how do you counter swap supports? Like what does that even mean? I feel like most supports are pretty much jack of all trades that aren’t susceptible to counter swapping like tanks.
Completely agree with everything you are saying. You are witnessing the mass Woke Exodus of our heroes being gutted and forced to being re-worked to fit into this Woke 5v5 ideology. They are wasting an enormous amount of time and effort re-rolling and adding new skills, for example look at hog completely re-worked, a couple weeks later Hog is already benched unviable even with the re-work. It's not working... They invest 7 years into building a game and balancing it around 6v6. I keep hearing all these rumors of Rein was actually supposed to get killed in the PvE story, I guess they are just killing him in PvP now that PvE isn't a thing. Then you hear rumors of Rein being Re-worked, like da fuken hell is going on anymore? Are they just going to give Rein one of Mauga's machine guns. How is doing something like that of any benefit to the OW community, to Reinhardt's character or any of the lore his abilities have been grounded in. At that point he is no longer Reinhardt and has completely lost his Identity. They are trying to Rachel Ziegler our heroes that we love and enjoyed playing. My idea to address the que situation is why not bring back a similar ticket style system that incentives queing up for flex All Roles. I do agree that making the tank role less fun to play is not the answer to retaining our tank heroes. Even players who play other roles besides tank would be even intimidated to try and learn the Tank role in fear of always being singled out and spammed Tank diff and have to bear the sole responsibility of why our team lost the match. You don't see this with the 2 DPS and 2 Supports because they split the responsibilities and share the blame, but let's be real you know you don't hear DPS or SUpport Diff nearly as much as Tank Diff. No one likes to be put in that position and you will not attract new tank players that are forced into those Sufferable Situations. No one asked for 5v5, this was forced on the community. The only thing we asked for in the final 2 years of OW 1 when the popularity dipped was just some content updates, just add something , do something , do anything. The reason wasn't because of 6v6. It was because Blizzard didn't want to do their jobs, they are too prideful to admit the truth so they scapegoated and took out all their anger by blaming it on the 2nd tank and subsequently removing them, for their own failure to simply update content into their own game at least more then twice a year. Make Overwatch Great Again, bring back 6v6
@@aSuperPi. Most obvious example would be going Kiriko just to cleanse anti-heal from Ana. Also, you can kinda counter a flanking Kiriko by forcing them to Suzu their tank early (either their tank dies, or they have to play more passive). If Lucio is a menace in a 1 support situation, going Brig to counter them could also work if he's diving you, and then you could go for a more poke-y hero like Bap or Zen to counter the Brig, but then the Brig could mirror or go like Moira to hopefully dive them and force their cooldowns, to which they might respond with swapping to Kiriko just to not get singled out, to which Ana is a good response, and so on. Edit: Point being, this is the situation for tanks right now, and it happened to a large extent because there isn't an equivalent of a second support to balance each hero's strength and weaknesses.
I'll give you some info as someone who has played since the the first OW beta. The game never had an issue with queue times before you had to perfectly lock yourself into a role. You can also see that other games don't do this, the queues happen and the decision to pick what you want to play come after you're in a game therefore eliminating the feeling people get that they're sitting in a queue waiting to get a game. For years the community played the game and matches were fast to find the problem is that majority of the community wanted to see a 2-2-2 format since for at least a year prior to role queue and because of pro play, the most enjoyed format to experience was 2-2-2 and in my personal opinion this was great because it gave the game a little more foundation the same way that the original 1 hero lock per team did. I think the issue is how they implemented it. Personally in my opinion the game should be a single queue that locks teams from selecting more than 2 heroes per role. And yes ofc you'd get some people that would feel bad because they wanted to play Supp or Tank that match but they seemingly got locked out of that role because 2 other people already picked it but that already happens in other games and at least using myself as an anecdote I don't get as dissapointed in those games because there's always the next and that loop does a way better job at retaining me than letting me perfectly pick what role I want to play. If Blizz really cared about queue times to the calculated degree we're talking about in this video this would be the best way and the ultimate change they should've made from OW to OW2. But they didn't because truthly, the change at least to me, was always about trying to sell to higher ups that they could make the game more "FPS-y" and more marketable so that they could get more money because for years they invested in the OWL with lower returns (which is for a bunch of reasons) but they were so caught up on the fact that "it's hard to watch" or "it's hard to follow" (which is not the reason they think was killing their game) that they went with a stupid change like 5-5 and tried to justify after the fact with "we can still make it good" type of changes. I'm a 2-2-2 6v6er all the way but beyond that, role queueing should've never existed as the way we play the game today. I've definitely played modes before where they implemented a form of role locking without having a role queue and yet they went with the most restrictive implementation of 2-2-2 right out of the bat to fix a problem that only got so bad because of all their other problems they couldn't get around to fixing.
I can see what you're saying but I'm skeptical of the idea of locking the roles after matchmaking rather than before. My experience of "gamer psychology" in games like Dota and League of Legends is that if someone doesn't get the exact role they want, they're often going to want to throw the game than trying their best to off-role. It would be very annoying to see "DPS or throw" every other game. And even when people are willing to try their best, you're undoubtedly going to have to constantly play with teammates on their off-role.
I wonder if the current trajectory will lead to a further decrease in tank players to the point where it's a ridiculously small number queueing up when the requirement to win on tank in the current state of game is to constantly switch, being unable to just lock in the character you want if you want to win (unlike the other 2 roles). At what point will sacrificing the enjoyment of tank players for short term gains affect their player pool so much that it's just the same as - if not worse than - if we had a revamped 6v6. We've seen more and more tanks switching off the role partially or even entirely increasingly in recent times, and if nothing can really be done in 5v5 aside from just homogenising the the tanks to the point where they're all generalists with no matchup interactions (which is a horrible idea in itself) then would 6v6 actually improve queue times? Even in the current state, we cannot say for a lack of data. From an outside perspective, it seems like the devs' hands are tied, and that they're simply unable to approach 6v6 for the short term monetary gain of their bosses.
Just let them hemorrhage tanks until there 10% or less of the player base. As soon as it's a problem for Q times they'll be open to the discussion on 6v6 or anything that makes the game better.
@@glasspaper3 do you have stats for that? Would be interesting to see the proportion of players across the ranks for ow1. Also, considering that they left the game in an awful state of balance for 2 years, I don't think that data provides a compelling argument
@@dumass804 tank queues in gold/plat were literally instant for years while dps and support queues were multiple minutes. This was with the awful ticket system too
@@kulbabus then imagine how it would like with 6 vs 6. Waiting for 6-10 min per QP match even we know it is already not good balance wise as we talk about QP
@@michakoaczkowski4878 It's not even remotely fair to compare late OW1 queue times with current OW2 queue times, because there are many factors that can influence queue times, not just format; which is why the devs need to do a 2-2-2 Quick Play: Hacked as often as needed to test 2-2-2 vs 1-2-2 queue times in OW2. In OW1, the severely imbalanced hero roster of 8 Tanks, 17 DPS, 7 Supports (we did not get a SINGLE new Tank or Support hero after 2-2-2’s release btw), CC not being reduced/removed from DPS & Supports until OW2 (CC still needs further reduced), problematic Tank designs like Roadhog & Wrecking Ball (still haven’t been addressed), and bad + slow hero balance (eventually balance patches stopped completely) are all what hurt OW1, 2-2-2 is not at fault at all. 5v5 with Tank designs like Doomfist, Orisa, Roadhog & Wrecking Ball make it an absolutely miserable experience for me and many others as well. Even if we fix these 4 problematic Tank designs, 5v5 will never be as replayable as 6v6. Counter-swapping constantly will always be a major issue in 5v5, and only having 1 Tank per team significantly reduces the amount of unique experiences you can have in game. If we want players to like the game more, have more play time, etc. then 5v5 is not the answer.
Like I said inside of a comment of a comment on a video. 6v6 was simply the better version of the game, Required team play, tanks couldn’t rock paper scissor each other and tank compositions were map dependent and the second tank would usually cover the other tanks weaknesses. 5v5 has this very casual deathmatch play style which devolves to teams in a causal sense just shooting at each other til someone dies on a respective team and then you full send wipe a team and keep pushing the point to the point you’d never get off the payload because you wouldn’t need to full reset due to the self healing changes. I understand that this game is a lot more approachable for a newer player base but when you shit on your older set of players by dumbing down the original game to the point of these project and hitbox size increases I don’t think any of these newer players would had survived in the older game. We had skill expression such as matrix movement which is manipulation of the hitbox by little nuances such as looking down while facing away from the enemy widow hiding your head hitbox but instead of people adjusting and learning these things we just nerf every character to the ground then revert everything by throwing more health on everyone and making certain characters way too strong with these projectile changes. I just don’t understand the balancing of this game and who it’s truly for, but it’s clearly not we’ll fleshed out or thought about too hard with some of these changes being there for the sake of changing things.
"Required team play, tanks couldn’t rock paper scissor each other and tank compositions were map dependent and the second tank would usually cover the other tanks weaknesses." Yes, but people didn't coordinate. Instalock roadhog in half my games, tanks that refuse to coordinate, hoping that the other tank isn't also a main tank player (couldn't really play off tank, most people wanted to play that role rather than main tank), being forced on weird heroes to make a viable team comp, etc. 6v6 was the much better experience in organized play, but when playing outside of a tank duo the role was absolutely awful to play. The best parts of 6v6 were absent in random games, especially if you wanted to solo queue (how most people play the game).
@@lumenox8541 you still get that roadhog player now, but now hes 2x more likely to be the reason you lose, you didnt need a viable team comp you needed to play better than the enemy team, if you could play an abysmal team comp and win a gm game what is it about characters that stop plat or diamond players from making better decisions
The amount of teamwork and skill expression is still the same The only difference now is 5hat counter picking is a bit more straightforward and easier to see because you have 1 less variable to think about
@@El_chara did you miss the part where I said 5v5 is easier to approach? Or did you just assume that I don’t understand that this game is literally built to inflate the new player base egos with artificially inflated skill via hit boxes plus many other factors. Because I remember when I use to only be good at overwatch and my skill didn’t translate to other games and then I went to learn how to actually play other fps games and went back to overwatch and realized I wasn’t good, but now the intention is to have players only feel good about playing overwatch by making the game much easier so they are discouraged by playing other games because they’re simply “too hard” or not interesting because they’re simply not good at them the same way as overwatch. If you want to know how I look at the game from a business standpoint they also changed the whole monetization system because lootboxes weren’t making them enough money because most players would unlock everything for free, as well as coming full circle from overwatch being different to other games by copying games like apex. So I understand that there’s a business model to uphold whether it be the monetization system or the way the game is played to make it more accessible to a newer playerbase, but when you ostracize you’re original player base how is that a good business move? Please tell me how else should I be looking at the game especially when my comment was in reference to the player bases experience?
I agree that queue times are probably the reason as to why they made 5v5. However, I think that if the tank role continues to be as miserable as it is, the queue times are going to get higher and higher as people will stop playing tank entirely. So if tank is not fixable in 5v5, either you're forced to go back to 6v6, or go back to open queue.
Yeah you said it in 90 secs. The game was more chill then, but everyone was still learning... I stopped playing when they stole my box collection, and my meaningless levels.
Man, tank used to be my favorite role in OW1. Synergizing with my other tank gave me some of my highest highs. I definitely miss that feeling. Now tanking feels like a chore most of the time and constantly feeling the need to swap is exhausting. Such a bummer to me.
It's not even remotely fair to compare late OW1 queue times with current OW2 queue times, because there are many factors that can influence queue times, not just format; which is why the devs need to do a 2-2-2 Quick Play: Hacked as often as needed to test 2-2-2 vs 1-2-2 queue times in OW2. In OW1, the severely imbalanced hero roster of 8 Tanks, 17 DPS, 7 Supports (we did not get a SINGLE new Tank or Support hero after 2-2-2’s release btw), CC not being reduced/removed from DPS & Supports until OW2 (CC still needs further reduced), problematic Tank designs like Roadhog & Wrecking Ball (still haven’t been addressed), and bad + slow hero balance (eventually balance patches stopped completely) are all what hurt OW1, 2-2-2 is not at fault at all. 5v5 with Tank designs like Doomfist, Orisa, Roadhog & Wrecking Ball make it an absolutely miserable experience for me and many others as well. Even if we fix these 4 problematic Tank designs, 5v5 will never be as replayable as 6v6. Counter-swapping constantly will always be a major issue in 5v5, and only having 1 Tank per team significantly reduces the amount of unique experiences you can have in game regardless of role. Having a 2nd Tank per team makes DPS & Support players feel like this is a team game much more consistently, because only having 1 Tank often means inconsistent team protection, whether it be from the front or from a flank. If we want players to like the game more, have more play time, etc. then 5v5 is not the answer.
think he said it, try a qp hacked. Blizzard is actually adding content to their game and actively balancing it as well. Playing double shield every game wasn't fun, the game was literally abandoned. I have faith that 6v6 would be better with current dev team.
So I guess by the logic that more optimised experiences and queue times is the best move for the game, It would therefore be logical for the game to go to open queue to further lower queue times. Might even have positive benefits on monetization as it's likely open queue would further diversify players hero pools by necessity (especially if you introduce role limits with open queue) making the perceived value of battle passes and skins in shops higher since you are statistically more likely to play that hero. So consider this my pitch for the reintroduction of open queue as the default way of playing the game (preferably with role limits to prevent degenerate strategies).
Open queue probably doesn't optimize the perceived experience, especially if you introduce something like role limits after a game starts, because players will very often feel like they don't get to play the role that they want. If you just go straight open queue it'll probably result in a ton of sub-optimal comps because no one wants to play what the team needs.
it was definitely a good video and you had alot of valid points that i agree with. One thing i would like to point out is that, atleast in the current state, i am afraid we wont be able to keep even the current tank players as the tank experience is horrendous. Yes 6v6 wont magically spawn new tank players which is true but i would like to assume that it would better the experience and make help in tank player retention. Obviously the trade off would be the queue times but i guess blizzard will have to decide on something sooner or later
This caused an issue in early OW1 where you'd get 6 dps on one team, leading to them getting instantly steamrolled. Open queue relies on players actually being willing to flex, which was oftentimes not the case
@@blah69epic LoL system of autofill and preffered roles is an ideal solution of being easy to implement and working well. Or just remove the role lock entirely, weaken tanks and buff self healing passive, just like it works in Paladins (oh the irony)
@@RacingSnails64 I always find it a bit baffling how whenever an argument is made regarding financial incentives in a game, there is always a group that stands up and says "I don't spend, so therefore the argument doesn't hold water." If you're resistant to flashy skins and microtransactions and blinking "click me" messages on the shop, then that's awesome. I'm glad their hooks don't affect YOU. But the reality is that if a corp can keep as many people playing as they can, the chances of "catching" someone is exponentially higher. Deleting a tank hads inarguably reduced queue times, which means more players play longer. Players playing longer means they have extra emotional investment. Extra emotional investment means more hooks into a person's wallet.
@@MegaArconehh this is kind of making connections. It's the time spent playing that makes more money. 5v5 on its own has not made anyone spend more money. It's rough though because they said for a long time that it was about queue times. You need people to play the game for it to stay alive, whether it is to get money or just keep community.
@@RacingSnails64 dps players are more likely to play the game if they don't have to spend 10-15 minute queues. More time playing the game means the player is more likely to spend money on OW instead of switching to other games to get a game quicker. DPS is by far the most popular role.
I would add in that the tank experience is probably the worst in the game as well, because you are in front of the team everyone is going to blame you for every lost fight and you get flamed 90% of the games for no reason at all
As a tank player who mainly plays QP I find this to be true about half the time. Although on the flip side if you know what you're doing and hard carry it feels really rewarding.
As a Winston main, it’s crazy how often I get blamed for other people’s mistakes. I can have the best stats on the team, but it doesn’t matter because my teammates don’t like my hero choice. If I have more kills than the rest of my team, it’s my fault for playing selfishly and not making space. If I’m not getting more kills, then I’m doing nothing. It’s fucking agonising.
Removing a tank and making the role worse is why the queue times issue has returned. They cant figure out how to make tank work, despite being told a million ideas by content creators and pros. Losing my off tank sucked. Dps and supports are too "solo carry" designed to encourage synergy with your tank. Its a lonely role, has been since October of 2022. Just remove the tank role. 4v4 fps game, you can move some tanks to dps or support, but delete the rest of the tanks and brigette. Make it the Valorant clone Blizzard wants it to be.
If 5v5 was to reduce queue times then it backfired. The game is now warped around it because it has to balance a single tank. Tanks become unkillable so games become longer (so longer queue times). Tanking itself has become very un-fun for many, further increasing queue times. Then there's the overall diversity of the game where with 2 tanks, you objectively had more options. Now tank strategies have devolved to sitting in spawn and counterpicking. Let's not forget the game was designed for 6v6 from the beginning; maps, abilities, walking speed--everything.
When I played OW1, I often liked to play as Orisa. I have not liked her as much in OW2, but that is because I don't like being the only tank on the team. I don't mind setting up kills for my allies, and I probably would want to play tank a lot more if there were two on a team. I usually play as support, most often as Zenyatta.
i agree with your take, but in almost all 6v6 vs 5v5 talk, the idea of a separate queue, even if its arcade, is never brought up. just give the players what they want. there are like 15 separate queues currently in overwatch, so whats the big deal? you can already 6v6 in custom matches, but id like its own mode. ive permanently moved to open queue and i lock in tank, unless 2 tanks beat me to it. 2-1-2 is the best of both worlds. 2-2-1 is fun too. open queue is better, imo, and im surprised content creators avoid open queue like it doesnt even exist.
If you want to solve queue times, remove role queue. Role queue was, like the examples you provided in your video, a core design change made to solve what was ultimately a balance problem in OW1 Brig.
Playing comp with friends as tank makes you realize that 6v6 was just better for the game, main reason: peeling; one of the main things off tanks would be utilized for is peeling for supports, kinda impossible to do that as one tank, and yeah, peeling is still required when heroes like Genji, Reaper, Sombra, Tracer, Moira, Lucio, etc are being played against, even playing as Dva, it’s not optimal to try managing both frontline and backline, that’s what two tanks were for but yeah…the developers have no idea how their games works
They can absolutely have both, it's just that they were stuck with tanks that were entirely constructed with 6v6 in mind. Most of the tank roster needed heavy reworks to fit in 5v5, but they simply didn't have the dev time they needed when OW2 was in development. That, and they seem to be stuck in the mindset of "absolutely no new shields." Tanks need more mitigation abilities across the board, especially mitigation that doesn't come in the form of healing.
From a person who played ow1 tank and was and still is a tank main, the synergy aspect was a double edge sword, the synergy aspect was only fun when it worked, but most of the time you are left with people playing heroes who they really enjoy and if they happen to have a horrible synergy you would get stomped and lose until they decided to switch to better synergies or lose the match. This doesnt add new players to the tank role, as you mention before but the other aspect also was more problematic, nobody wanted to be a main tank everybody wanted to be a side tank, so your wait times+ the population of actual main tanks existence was still at a all times low, this created a problem of if the enemy had a actual main tank and side tank vs 2 side tank mains meant you auto lose as a tanks impact was much greater back then, if you were the type of person who is willing to sacrifice their enjoyment for victory it can get boring really fast as you are always left to be a main tank because nobody wanted to be one, everybody was selfish in ow1 the concept of synergy was only good in theory but in practice was never seeen but only remembered fondly. So everytime i here the debate 6v6 the question i will ask are you willing to play the main tank role, or are you here to play the "fun tanks".Cause the core issue hasnt changed somebody had to absorb the dmg and side tanks rarely every did the absorbing as they were more focused on creating openings with "flanks" and "picks" the main tank role was only their to aborb the dmg, the only thing we lost in the transition of 5v5 from 6v6 was ability to do whatever one of the tanks wanted as the other still had the same exact responsibilities and job it was never divided evenly as people would like to remember. My biggest gripe was always the fact that you get 2 different leaders at the same type if you went in they stay behind if you stay behind they went in the miscomunication of not agreeing to a single plan was so infurating that you can't decide what to do, just imagine 2 leaders argueing 90% of what is the correct play, 5v5 removed that and made it more clear on who to follow or what they can do, to me it streamline the roles to encourage on what they were supposed to do, if you did your role you will climb, in ow1 it was more of struggle fest as the best way to climb was activly comunicating your moves or else you would lose, granted in ow2 comunication isnt as big as ow1 but it isnt requirement in ow2 in ow1 you had to comunicate because the reduced the inconsistency of misplays to happen.
It's always funny, people who constantly beg for 6v6 to come back never can address these legitimate and pervasive problems with tanking in 6v6. It wasn't the perfect games you'd get maybe 1 out of every 5 games. It was the 4 out of every 5 games where you'd have a team that had these problems. There's absolutely a reason why few people played tank in 6v6. My own hero choice is dramatically widened moving to 5v5 because you're no longer restricted based on your partner's hero choice too. I'll honestly never touch the role again if it moves back to 6v6
That's an interesting insight since I've played OW1. Given how unpopular tank is, I'm not surprised that main tanks would be even less popular among tank players. I anticipate that the counter-argument would be something along the lines that the move should have been to rework the tank role within 6v6 rather than change to 5v5.
@@lumenox8541 getting non synergy tanks like zarya hog was better than getting a mercy lucio on your team but nobody addresses that, at least with 2 tanks if you yourself played better than the enemy team you won the game, those tanks were way less impactful and way easier to kill, the better players won the game regardless of what characters were being played period, which is why you had people one tricking their whole time playing and actually ranking up
@@denjii9 In a sense, you can look it like that but what i meant was that having more people ≠ more teamwork, there is maximun level of comunication before it becomes confusing with orders and task, it usually sticks to a group of 3- 4, once that reaches above it no longers becomes a team and more of a squadron or squad. By limiting roles you make it clearer on what the task should accomplish on each indivual in ow case the tank is usually the leading role as they dictacte the space and pacing, by having 2 divergent leading roles it becomes redundant and confusing as you are given the option to ignore one tank for the other, thus adding confusion on who to follow because now you are left with the question who did wrong, was it the tanks mistake in judgement or was it that lack of trust of teamates not following his move in favor of following the other tank. By removing one member you allow for faster movement and faster decision making, as everyone is clear on what to do, there is no second guessing on who to follow, makes it easier to discern on those who will follow the plan and those who are rouge. In a sense ow2 has more teamwork requirements then ow1 as if you don't fulfill your task you exponantially affect your team more as in ow1 you had more leeway to do whatever you wanted with less repercussion because of the reduncancy of safechecks and stalling potential was much greater. Having the need the need to constantly relay information is not a sign of a tighter teamwork but a phisicial limitation on how much information we can take as human being, ow1 showed this really well once people start comparing the ease of information and the requirements needed to execute a plan is much faster and corrected faster during a teamfight, this correction of fixing the issue makes it easier to dicern what is the best way to deal with a problem, although this encourages swapping at times it highlights easier for alot players on what was hidden in plain sight on problematic designs and flaws in kits, to me it was always their and simply putting it back to 6v6 does not fixes the issue but more like a way to hide the issues again and mask it away with numbers. Information relay itself is a powerful tool in itself and can carry alot of weight on alot of situations but it isn't a sign of teamwork but only shows you how powerful it is when used correctly. Teamwork is a sign of trust and understanding requiring little to no information given by simply having the same goal and knowing what you need to accomplish while also knowing how they will accomplish without uttering a word is peak teamwork.
Well said. considering we will never ever have equal tank distribution among players it is much better to focus on balancing what we have and make it as good as possible (including a lot of huge reworks and other systems in line) instead of dreaming of something what in reality rarely worked as great as people described (hog players vs other tanks expectations etc.)
The queue time is only better in 5v5 IF the worst experience doesn't half the number of people willing to play tank. Which is guaranteed to happen if the role keeps getting worse and worse.
I used to love playing tank back in Overwatch 1, but the switch to 5v5 changed a lot. 5v5 makes counter picking much more powerful and prevalent. You can't share the responsibility with another player either. For supports it feels nice knowing you have a second healer that's got your back, that same feeling was true with 6v6 as tank. That's no longer the case and I think just a lot of players feel uncomfortable with that extra responsibility. Sure you can make the argument that each player has less impact on the game but I never played Overwatch to stroke my own ego to begin with. When you won it felt more like you won as a team, rather than an individual player.
You, someone, who has never played 6v6 made a better argument at why is it better, than Samito, for who at this point the defining trait is being the 6v6 advocate, which I find amusing, and also it highlights your great arguing skills. Love you content, keep up the good work
Thanks for the kinds words. Actually a lot of my ideas about 6v6 come from Samito. Maybe I'm able to present the arguments more cleanly and so maybe that's why they sound better. I respect Samito as someone who cares a lot about the game, and even though I prefer to present things more "calmly" I do like listening to the occasional Samito rant.
More player slots on either team means less of the "Rock Paper Scissors" type meta, and FAR less pressure to play any specific playstyle. The fewer players you have to experiment with, the fewer strategies you can realistically pull off. A lot of the reasoning behind Overwatch's design being for 6v6 originally was for the sake of viewing it in Esports. With Overwatch Esports being completely dead, genuinely, I see no reason to return to 6v6 as though it is some "magical number". 8v8, or hell even 10v10, would be fascinating. Would you lose a lot of individual agency in the outcome of a match? Absolutely! And as tank players have found out as of late, in most cases, having tons of innate agency over a match and not agency earned through notable skill, is horribly unfun.
i love these vids but it would help me follow the video if you had more splash cards or even just a list of the arguments youre presenting cause i had to go back like 3 or 4 times to process some of what you said
I think we can definitely criticize blizzard devs for their balancing mistakes, 5v5 has been out for a while and despite all the patches and reworks most of them accomplished nothing to remedy how bad 5v5 feels
as someone who played ow1 day one , my issue with 5v5 is how the the games' gameplay loop revolves less around team coordination and more about individual skill. sure you can coordinate a dive or a peel but in ow1 you had to coordinate who was going to engage with what ability . like starting an engagement off with a pick with an orisa pull and a hog hook . 5v5 feels more everyone play for themselves and build ult charge instead of truly being a team
“Convince 33% of the player base to play tank” but if you check over buff we had that at the end of overwatch 1s life span and the matchmaker already confirmed that 5v5 isn’t for q times🤭
Question why don’t people play open q ? Only thing I want for open Q is limit each team to 2 tanks keep it 5v5 and boom fun so people stop running 3 T and 2 S
The sin was the role queue, that was the thing that increased queue times, and it was introduced to kill the goats meta, because the developers couldn't find a way to fix the issue without screwing it
It was more introduced to fix the problem of 3-5 dps players on one team, the dev team admitted as much in a recent interview. Killing goats was just an added benefit. Hell, that's the main reason most tank players, including me, I know started playing tank.
@@lumenox8541The >2 dps was always a problem of the low elo playerbase since launch. Goats was something created by them way after launch, and it was killing the excitement at the OWL. The role lock was a patch fix over goats, with the added "benefit" of restricting the dps at low elo.
@@ulaznarnah, the first “pro meta” consisted of 4-5 tanks paired with lucio as soon as the first couple of tournaments. it’s only got named goats after brig was released which made the comp even more powerful
If Q times is such an issue why isn’t removing role Q from the game ever put on the table for discussion. It’s like the tank role takes the bullet for every wrong with this game. With removal of 1 tank there’s no reason for it to have crossed over to OW2
0:20 argument invalidated... lmao thank you for being honest, no flame either, it's not ur fault or anything that you didn't play ow1, can't change it now, but if you didn't play it you just can't know, it's a "you had to be there" type of thing unfortunately 3:37 OKAY NEVERMIND, THIS GUY IS ACTUALLY SO RIGHT LMAO HOLY SHIT this guy is so smart, why tf would you remove a player instead of just balancing their power??? what a good argument omfg
DPS just needs to be tuned more correctly. No character is more evident of this than Genji, you have essentially a dive DPS that can’t even function as a dive DPS.
I'm exclusively a tank player, both in OW1 and OW2. Is it weird to say I enjoy 1 tank better than 2? I like not having to rely on someone else to create space. Plus the reality is you would get two off-tanks or a hog counterpart. Tank synergy is over-hyped because it was actually quite rare in OW1. That being said I'm a metal ranks player, that might not be true in the highest ranks.
Your experience is pretty much the same as mine (except I'd argue that if you didn't have tank synergy and they did it was pretty much a loss from the beginning), and I've been high elo since OW1. I think it's a main vs off tank difference tbh. Most people played tank in OW1 to play off tank, main tanks were a rare breed. Eliminating one tank meant eliminating the off tank role (off tanks playstyles don't function as well without a main tank to enable)
Love the psychological and economic rationale, well structured arguments with strong points. 6v6 crowd needs to understand that it’s unrealistic. Yes company financials is a big part but that merely reflects the player psychology. The psychological explanation of tanks is absolutely correct in fact it leads over to the real psychological understanding of gamers and even more so society. If games are meant to relax and to escape responsibilities then the role that applies that pressure is avoided. In fact this bleeds further over into general economic conditions and the rise of free to play to games and game popularity. Games fulfill our psychological needs not fulfilled by modern society. The fact like games like call of duty and destiny are so popular is because they are dopemine pumps that give the illusion of success for very low effort. I could go on and on about this, either way great video.
Honestly as someone who left the game a long time ago you sound like addicts who cant quit but must rationalize your shitty decision to keep playing so you can tell yourself nothing can be done to change things....like an abused partner who gots back after being beaten.... If people were willing to stop playing they would 100% reverse the changes because it hurts their bottom line, but yall are addicts who cant admit it. The video game industry is one of the most anti consumer because its filled with addicts who cant let go. All the scummy consumer tactics wont change for the same reason 5v5 wont. yall are addicted.
I think the social weight of tanking in overwatch is too high for a casual player, given how much people will flame tanks because its the most obvious point of failure
Funny enough i had a discussion with my fiends about this yesterday, disregarding the finafial side if things imo 5v5 just is not balanced around OW as a game. It was designed for 6v6 for specific reasons having a main tank to protect your foward push and an off tank to protect your backline and or dive the window, ashe, enemy supports etc. At a normal skill level with 5v5 if u as the tank play a dive tank to go off and kill an enemy you run into the problem of your team being annihilated and it's your fault. I love tank, ile never stop playing tank but 5v5 does not favour tanks. Unless they become more outrageous than they are which I am not advocating for the tank experience will always be shite. To actually make it work they would need to rebuild the game frim scratch with new map design's and full hero reworks. Also disregarding money and time spent i just also think 6v6 will never come back because then the devs/blizzard would have to swallow their pride and say "We made a mistake" which lets be honest isnt going to happen lmao. The thing on tank mentality is spot on but again 5v5 makes takes the center piece of arhe team and loosing your tank in a fight probably means u loose the fight and alot of people arent going to want to be the center of the enemies attention. 6v6 atleast it was spread out between 2 people and with good tank synergy it was fun. I just miss diving with my tank buddy who was a ball main, Winston and old doom were my Ow1 picks the good times are well and truly gone xD
I hear the argument that Blizzard won't revert to 6v6 because of pride/ego, but Season 9, and the Mid-Season 9 update already shows that they are more than willing to make drastic changes to make the game better, and revert changes as well. I really don't think it's that deep. If 40% of the player base wanted to play tank, they would have kept 6v6. The fact that only 10-15% of the player base wants to play tank even when tank was apparently really awesome in OW1, is why they switched to 5v5. The overall market simply doesn't want a game that is composed of 33% tanks, even if that game is better, because most people just want to play damage/support.
13:30 we have been spending like 2 years doing the same for 5v5 i think u underrestimate the amount of people willing to play tank in 6v6 (cause 5v5 has basicly alienated all the flex players from tank and there are also more tank heros now) support in 5v5 has proven that if blizzard makes the role attractive enough, players will flock to it to me the problem with tank in 5v5 is not really the fact that you get hit with everything in the game its more that you have no choice other than to be hit with everything in the game because 5v5 is so goddamn linear and boring i guess we just need all the remaining tank players to be so fed up that they also stop playing the role xD or just play 6v6 in custom games
You are right that if the tank role is very impactful (like it was at the start of OW2) then it becomes more popular, but the fact that tank needs to be OP to be a popular pick is why Blizzard sees tank as an issue. Ideally you want each role to have similar value, and when tanks aren't particularly strong, the role just has a tendency to be unpopular. In addition, unfortunately most non-tank players see a tank meta as being unfun. Every time tank is strong, non-tank players complain that the game sucks and so Blizzard is incentivized to keep tank in a perpetual weaker state.
I like solo tanking I’ve never had more fun in my 5 years of OW than when OW2 fully launched (lil biased bc Dva is my main and she was OP for like that first month and not everyone had figured out the zarya part of the rock paper scissors) like people really do have rose colored glasses about what 6v6 2 tanks was like. I’ve pretty much almost always solo queued comp and ironically I was forced to not play my favorite tanks (Dva and then sigma when he came out) more often in OW1 than I ever am now in OW2. If I’m forced to switch now it’s bc of successful counter swapping from the enemies which is really annoying don’t get me wrong, but what is infinitely more annoying than being counter swapped is 1. Your fave tank being selected before you can pick them at all 2. Being forced to go a tank you didn’t wanna play because your 2nd tank is a useless hog/ball running around feeding (intentionally or not) Those two issues being permanently gone with the format change felt so refreshing. My gripes with tank balance right now have less to do with format and overall tank philosophy. I don’t understand the issue of tanks being considered “raid bosses” idk what a raid boss actually is but ya know what it sounds sick af and tanks having that reputation has a better chance of getting people to check out the role more at least imo
You don't have a second go-to tank? You could've also asked the other tank player if you could play that hero, but I understand that they won't always be nice and actually switch. As for your second point, I feel like being forced to switch tanks is still prevalent in OW2, especially if the opposing team has one or 2 dedicated counters. I think a second tank could cover those weaknesses. But I also remember having to switch from the tank I wanted to play because my second tank would play a tank that wouldn't synergize with the rest of the team😂
I think just throwing in the towel because people aren't queuing for one role is silly to me, and you just make the overall game experience suffer because of it.
Maybe it’s cause there’s half as many tanks and supports as DPS heroes 😱 tanks have like 10 characters and supports have like 8 characters to choose from while DPS is now like 20. No shit there are less tank players, there’s less characters to pick, and now people have to solo tank and be blamed instead of sharing tank role with another player. This also removes synergies, and many of these tanks were designed to be played WITH ANOTHER TANK. Like Zarya + Winston. It’s also more stressful/easier for NEW tank players to not be the only tank, and now it’s MORE stressful and responsibilities for someone to try and pick up tank cause if they mess up the team fight isn’t instantly over. Blizzard shot themselves in the foot, they should have added way more tanks and balanced them instead of removing a role. 6v6 was way more fun and less stressful as a tank main. They could have just reworked shields and fixed the double shield meta. Now blizzard is adding another DPS… oh well.
If they actually cross-referenced data, I'm sure it would show that people DO want to play Tank in OW2. They just don't want to play solo tank. Go play a few games of Open Queue.
They have many talented people with advanced degrees in data analysis, I'm sure they have the data that people DON'T want to play tank. Assuming that they have the data showing that more people want to play tank in OW2 and are actively sticking their head in the sand about it is moronic.
@@lumenox8541 You're ignoring the argument. Go play Open Queue. People like playing Tank. They have some of the most active and fun abilities in the game. The reason people didn't like playing Tank in OW1 was because passive action isn't engaging. However... They fixed that with OW2 by reworking some of the egregious outliers (mainly Orisa), and with added new tank heroes. The only reason people hate 6v6 is because of their experience with it at the time. If they had offered OW2 as a patch, and then added in new Tank heroes, I bet the Tank community wouldn't be so miserable right now. The fact that they don't even want to TRY a QPHacked weekend with a 6v6 is all I need to understand that they are just too prideful.
I see what you're trying to say, but the open queue experience isn't a good representation of the population of Overwatch as there is a very specific selection bias. Generally the people who queue for open queue are already willing to flex and play a tank if they have to, and some like myself play it specifically for the silliness of seeing multiple tanks. The people who aren't willing to flex or deal with multiple tanks, aren't going to queue in open queue which means their opinions don't get represented in the open queue data. Considering the difference in popularity between role queue and open queue, the data suggests that most people prefer the more restricted experience of role queue with one tank.
@@Casual314 But then what about the people already queueing Tank combined with Open Queue players? Surely that equals up to at least 33%. All I'm saying, is that it's kind of disadvantageous to lock something back, even though they agree that it's a better format, just because of queue times that existed in OW1.
4v4 actually is the best I have tried it in a custom match and it works quite well. 1 tank, 1 healer 2 damage. And because of TikTok peoples attention spend are so short so faster matches and short queue time
That actually wouldn't shorten the queue times, and would only serve to lengthen the queue times for the support role which is a very popular role nowadays. The only reason removing a tank shortened queue times was because less than 33% of the player base wanted to play tank. Right now more than 40% of players want to play support so reducing the available space for support players to fit would increase queue times for supports.
you don't want your new players waiting in a 5 minute queue for a 5 minute game 20 minutes later only to get steam rolled in a 5 minute game tanks have 18% pick rate i thank they need to bring 6v6 back make it a special game mode or a bit to let new players try it and see is they like it more and if more players like it more maybe make it the default if not i got nothing
> start video expecting brain damage > 10 seconds in, "6v6 vs 5v5 is one of the balance related topics" Dislike and walk away How tf are people THIS disconnected This isn't a balance issue, it's a core game design issue and 5v5 has entirely ruined the game Stop the fucking cap already
it's surely more of a live service issue than a free to play issue, the incentives are the same, just exaggerated, so any live service game in a capitalist society needs to have as big of a playerbase as it can muster to be successful
I'm sorry Casual but I really feel like you missed the mark here. Starting with the bit about solo tanks needing to be raid bosses: This comes from an insistence that the role must be about standing in chokes and holding space for eternity, whereas I think the devs have been trying to push the role more into the Engagement category, where you should have tools to initiate combat and take SOME aggro, but not hold down the fort 1v5. Tanks are no longer THE map control role, but instead like much of the rest of the game that has become a team-wide responsibility. This is the same argument against the claim that the "magic" of tank-duos is gone. You can "off-tank" and support your tank friend with either other role, you just have to go about it in a different way. In a PvP game there is no magic "aggro" button, and therefore nothing that makes a tank much better at drawing attention than any other hero. Regarding off-angling, this is I think one of the biggest perks of 5v5. It was awful in OW1 to always have a tank in your face no matter where you went, and it made the already dominating heores feel inescapable, especially if your team had the worse tanks. Need to get past this Orisa standing in choke? Well that's fine, you can use mobility to get around them on many heroes. The difference between doing that now and in OW1 is now you can actually fight for that angle and take it yourself, whereas before you would most likely just get a Dva flying into your face and you'd have to turn around or hope your tank tries to help you. Do tanks make the game feel like OW? Entirely subjective of course, but again this comes down to a different argument about whether OW should be more MOBA or more FPS, and that's been going on literally since launch so I don't think we'll have a definitive answer any time soon. I also think your point here about tanks being the exclusive creators of space and therefore the cornerstone of the OW experience is just wrong. A Widow also creates space through her kill threat; a Sym can deny space with her turrets; a Lucio can quite literally create space by knocking enemies out of advantageous positions. The difference is in how they do it, and historically the methods tanks usually employ to create space are some of the most hated (Barriers, hard CC). You make a point about DPS players not playing tank because they have to be okay not getting kills. . . Again, not sure how true this really is. For starters, there are several clips of prominent tank mains like Super, Flats, or Emongg complaining about not being able to get kills (Even often when they're outnumbered), so clearly that's not even how tank mains feel. Furthermore, tanks were always quite capable of damage in OW1; for all the valid complaints about what spawned GOATS, the one nobody ever talks about is the fact that tanks could actually do enough damage on their own to break through such a sturdy comp. Lastly, the argument that 6v6 is more competitive because it's more complex is honestly just ego-stroking. Nobody would ever say soccer isn't competitive because there aren't two balls on the field, or that basketball needs a few extra players to be a real "competitive sport." What makes something competitive is A. the reasonable potential for either side to win (equal opportunity/resources), and B. the passion of the individuals taking part and their drive to win. Comparing complexity changes the competition from being between people in one activity to instead comparing activities themselves. Didn't mean to write a novel but this is such a tired debate and frankly one you probably don't have the experience to really be arguing for (Not to mention you're starting to sound like Samito beating this dead horse).
You don't have to apologize if you disagree. I don't really support 6v6 or 5v5 specifically even if I made more arguments for the design of 6v6 in this video. I'm mostly paraphrasing the arguments I've heard, and I only agree with them in theory. But to start, the bit of about referring to tanks as raid bosses just refers to the fact that tanks have to be tankier than they were in OW1 to do the same job of holding space, which means individually they're more "raidbossy" because they're harder to kill. The raid boss label also just comes from the fact that they're virtually impossible to 1v1 for a non-tank hero, within the effective range of the tank, without exploiting some kind of obvious weakness. I would argue that tanks do in fact hold space better than any other hero individually. If a tank is chasing you down, and you have no one helping you, you basically have to run away, which is why tanks are labelled as the space creators in the first place, even though technically anyone can create space to some degree. You are probably right that 2 tanks makes the non-tank off-angling experience terrible. But 6v6 proponents would argue that that's an issue of maps being too limited rather than the format being the problem. When I was referring to it being easier to off-angle, I was actually referring to the tank. You can appear in different positions, but you can't really off-angle as a single tank, as whatever angle your holding as a single tank would instantly become the main angle as every enemy looks in your direction. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I think some tank players would prefer not being the center of attention. I acknowledge that other heroes can hold angles and take space, but I maintain that tanks introduce a unique aspect of holding space that isn't present in other FPS's. The idea of having a virtually "unduelable" force on a team is fairly unique to Overwatch, and I would argue significantly affects the "feel" of the game. Maybe calling it genre defining isn't fair since technically you need every aspect of Overwatch to come together to be Overwatch, but what I'm really trying to say is that tanks are an important part of what makes Overwatch different to other FPS's. Regarding the quote about "dps have to be ok not getting kills", I think you may have misunderstood or perhaps I should have worded it better. I'm trying to say that tanks aren't "killers" and so dps mains don't tend to enjoy tank. For competitiveness, I think we can label things as more or less competitively interesting based on the design of the game. For example, we can probably say that chess is more competitive than rock-paper-scissors in the sense that there are more things to talk about in chess than there is in rock paper scissors. Similarly, 6v6 proponents generally argue that 6v6 has more depth at the highest levels than 5v5. Obviously there's a limit since 100v100 probably also has less depth than 6v6, because eventually too many players introduce too much chaos to be a reasonably interesting game. In general, I would speculate that 6v6 has more details to talk about even if there is still a lot of depth in 5v5.
theyre gonna be spending years of development time and money reworking heroes and maps to improve 5v5, thats what theyre doing NOW, 6v6 would genuinely be a lot cheaper long term than having to rework most tank characters and redesign entire maps because the lack of a tank makes widow maps unbearable to play
All that depends on whether or not it's possible to get 33.33% of the player base to play tank, which I would predict is unlikely even if tank were the best role in the game. I would speculate that there aren't that many people who refuse to play Overwatch specifically because of Widow. The players who consistently complain about Widow (myself included), are already consistently playing the game anyway. Meanwhile there probably are plenty of people who would stop playing if the queue times were consistently longer than 5 minutes. You're probably right that the investment in fixing 6v6 would have been cheaper, but you lose out on the potential profits gained by switching to 5v5, and so in terms of revenue - cost = profit, 5v5 is better.
@@Casual314 short term profit also doesnt mean the game will do well enough to be sustainable long term, esports do so much for the perception of a game and how many people play or interact with the game at all and i just cant see 5v5 reaching anywhere near the competitive heights the previous game could. They dont even need to make tank the best role they just need to make heroes fun and implement a queue system like league has, they could also make quickplay open queue since being competitive doesnt matter there and thats how most casuals interact with the game, effectively eliminating any queue issues. i think them leaving tank the way it is now will lead to the same queue issues they ran into previously when tank was unfun to play during double shield, the more miserable the role is the more dps players have to sit in queue its just a matter of time before theyre forced to actually solve their issues instead of ignoring them
6v6 is dog shit. It won’t change anything. It will just make it less skillful and less competitive. That’s why ow1 was dying. If 6v6 was a thing balancing would be absolutely impossible.
I still think that 6v6 should return if Bizzard really cares about the die-hard player base and doesn't want to ruin all the hard work they have been putting into making Overwatch a better gaming experience than it has been for a long time now. Please revert before it is too late, Blizzard. I'm begging you to do the right thing for once. 🥺🙏❤🩹
6v6 wasn't perfect and I was open to 5v5 initially, but I feel time has proven the downsides are too strong and the primary upside has ended up coming down almost entirely to queue times. To me, that simply isn't good enough justification for sticking with an otherwise (especially for Tanks) inferior composition. There's a lot of ways to combat queue times and incentivize playing Tank in 6v6, there's very little one can do to address the extreme pressure and rock/paper/scissors inherent to tanking in 5v5.
Yeah, they had their chance, the balance is dogshit, and they can't blame Bobby kotick for everything, are we seriously going to believe that bobby was there like "nah you guys are going to buff Orisa and roadhog"? That was their decision, and we're 10 seasons into this game, having the same conversations over and over again because they are not on the same page as their players, and if they were they wouldn't have buffed Orisa, which is just one of this game's problems
@@pepekovallin
They only look at Bronze and ignore anyone higher ranked. They literally just want the dumpster squad that can't aim to feel like they're having fun. That's why they buffed her and why they changed projectile sizes.
@@Adventist1997 I'm gonna be honest, if they actually looked at bronze players they'd have nerfed orisa a long time ago because she is probably the worse tank to deal with in a low rank lobby because no one shoots the supports, I think it's more about them listening to people that don't want to improve in the game, thus giving us the bigger hitboxes and health pools, and bronze people shouldn't be put on the same category as them, bronze players don't like being bronze
@@pepekovallinThe majority of overwatch players are dogshit. Blizzard's approach is to appease the dogshit players so that they'll stick around and POSSIBLY buy season passes/skins. I mean, OWL literally died because it's so unenjoyable to watch a team lose their tank and basically lose the entire fight. At least with 2 tanks there was another tank that could keep the fight alive and potentially stall for the other tank to come back. But hey, that's just a theory, a GAME THEORY.
7v7 no hero limits
12v12 ow would go hard
I think more players would be really good for the game, it lets casual players relax and competitive players are less likely to face a full team stack.
@@w1ndt this is whats up
yes to the first, no to the second, team formation is half the fun of a game like overwatch@@pilloh4107
7 monkeys in a tree K-I-L-L-I-N-G
Wanna say, I enjoy your video format. The lofi. Chill beats. And they're frequent. I look forward to them in early mornings or late nights.
Thanks for the kind words, glad you enjoy the videos
I will say you are one of 2 OW TH-camrs I actually trust to give information without being overly emotional about everything with the other being Spilo. You aren’t arguing why 6v6 sucks or why 5v5 sucks you are arguing why the question doesn’t matter because we aren’t going back.
100% agree. It sucks to me but he's making a very logical reason why 5v5 will stay and I think he hits the nail on the head
Yeah and also if 6v6 was brought back Blizzard would have to admit their screw up which we know they won't do.
I think you are correct even though it makes me sad
Incorrect now. If you play 6v6 in the 6v6 custom, the games are a lot more fair and fun, and it’s just so much more of an enjoyable experience. Current overwatch in 6v6 has proven 6v6 is better.
Everyone wants 6v6 but I don't think nearly as many people who want it are actually going to want to play tank
And those that do play tank seem to universally prefer off tank (guess why so many tank players dislike 5v5, they removed off tank lol)
Here is some food for thought, maybe if they didn’t add characters like Mauga or Orisa more people would be inclined to play tank
Me, a Tank main since 2017:
If I can go 1 game without getting countered, I’ll be so happy. 5v5 has a lot of problems.
@@abudgie6909sorry to inform you that you are still gonna get countered
Even in games like cod their is counter and having heroes with different abilities their is inevitably counter picking
11:54 _"To be tank main, you need to be OK with the pressure of playing aggressively, while the entire enemy team tries to kill you. Which is why support mains don't play tank."_
Honestly, as ex tank main that now OTPs Moira, I get the same thrill on her of this without the downsides of playing tank. I can just YOLO around, do whatever, and still win games. Playing Moira with a more aggressive playstyle allows me to in effect be the off-tank player that also can heal a bunch, while having the agency that tanks lack. (I played in the old days and hit Diamond in ow1 as Rein before role queue even was a thing.)
Though I have to say, with the new tank designs in the game, I think there's heroes in the tank lineup that can fit both damage and support mindset. Junker Queen is a good example of a buffed up shotgun dps, and Zarya a buffed up support. Mauga has two big guns that go brrrrrrr if that's all you want to do. The thing with tanks back in 6v6 is that they had greater carry potential.
If you want to imagine what it felt like to go from 2 tanks to 1 tank, imagine if we removed one support and made each support a raid boss to compensate. Now it would be easy to counter individual supports, and the supports would have to counterswap each other constantly, and you'd have more pressure on you to always perform while you are delegated to a much more difficult role as there isn't another support that can pick up the slack for you, or help you if you're dove, etc. It would be like, say you're on a single support Lucio, and enemy team goes Ana and Sombra. You can't heal your team through anti, and you can't use your escape tool of wall riding as Sombra constantly hacks you, as Ana nades you. So you go Kiriko to deal with it. They respond in turn, and you have to as well, etc. And so the counterswap-watch of support begins.
Point being, I think we will find more people that enjoy playing tank if we have a second tank. Will it affect queue times in a positive way? Not necessarily, but "player retention" (how much and how long they play, and if they come back) is also important for free to play games, and I'd argue that it's next up on the list for a for-profit company to look for in their game. A game with a better reputation will always be more attractive towards newer players (i.e. people playing it saying they enjoy their time more).
P.S. it's probably waaaaay easier to just do a large balance patch (similar to S9) to fit current tanks into 6v6, rather than redesign all tank heroes to not be susceptible to hard counters. Samito's recent video kinda brought this to its final conclusion. Either you make all tanks play more similar to each other, or you keep hero identity but go for 6v6.
I gotta ask how do you counter swap supports? Like what does that even mean? I feel like most supports are pretty much jack of all trades that aren’t susceptible to counter swapping like tanks.
Completely agree with everything you are saying.
You are witnessing the mass Woke Exodus of our heroes being gutted and forced to being re-worked to fit into this Woke 5v5 ideology. They are wasting an enormous amount of time and effort re-rolling and adding new skills, for example look at hog completely re-worked, a couple weeks later Hog is already benched unviable even with the re-work. It's not working... They invest 7 years into building a game and balancing it around 6v6.
I keep hearing all these rumors of Rein was actually supposed to get killed in the PvE story, I guess they are just killing him in PvP now that PvE isn't a thing. Then you hear rumors of Rein being Re-worked, like da fuken hell is going on anymore? Are they just going to give Rein one of Mauga's machine guns. How is doing something like that of any benefit to the OW community, to Reinhardt's character or any of the lore his abilities have been grounded in. At that point he is no longer Reinhardt and has completely lost his Identity. They are trying to Rachel Ziegler our heroes that we love and enjoyed playing.
My idea to address the que situation is why not bring back a similar ticket style system that incentives queing up for flex All Roles. I do agree that making the tank role less fun to play is not the answer to retaining our tank heroes. Even players who play other roles besides tank would be even intimidated to try and learn the Tank role in fear of always being singled out and spammed Tank diff and have to bear the sole responsibility of why our team lost the match. You don't see this with the 2 DPS and 2 Supports because they split the responsibilities and share the blame, but let's be real you know you don't hear DPS or SUpport Diff nearly as much as Tank Diff. No one likes to be put in that position and you will not attract new tank players that are forced into those Sufferable Situations.
No one asked for 5v5, this was forced on the community. The only thing we asked for in the final 2 years of OW 1 when the popularity dipped was just some content updates, just add something , do something , do anything. The reason wasn't because of 6v6. It was because Blizzard didn't want to do their jobs, they are too prideful to admit the truth so they scapegoated and took out all their anger by blaming it on the 2nd tank and subsequently removing them, for their own failure to simply update content into their own game at least more then twice a year.
Make Overwatch Great Again, bring back 6v6
@@aSuperPi. Most obvious example would be going Kiriko just to cleanse anti-heal from Ana. Also, you can kinda counter a flanking Kiriko by forcing them to Suzu their tank early (either their tank dies, or they have to play more passive). If Lucio is a menace in a 1 support situation, going Brig to counter them could also work if he's diving you, and then you could go for a more poke-y hero like Bap or Zen to counter the Brig, but then the Brig could mirror or go like Moira to hopefully dive them and force their cooldowns, to which they might respond with swapping to Kiriko just to not get singled out, to which Ana is a good response, and so on.
Edit: Point being, this is the situation for tanks right now, and it happened to a large extent because there isn't an equivalent of a second support to balance each hero's strength and weaknesses.
The lowest a human being can fall is like:
I'll give you some info as someone who has played since the the first OW beta. The game never had an issue with queue times before you had to perfectly lock yourself into a role. You can also see that other games don't do this, the queues happen and the decision to pick what you want to play come after you're in a game therefore eliminating the feeling people get that they're sitting in a queue waiting to get a game.
For years the community played the game and matches were fast to find the problem is that majority of the community wanted to see a 2-2-2 format since for at least a year prior to role queue and because of pro play, the most enjoyed format to experience was 2-2-2 and in my personal opinion this was great because it gave the game a little more foundation the same way that the original 1 hero lock per team did. I think the issue is how they implemented it. Personally in my opinion the game should be a single queue that locks teams from selecting more than 2 heroes per role. And yes ofc you'd get some people that would feel bad because they wanted to play Supp or Tank that match but they seemingly got locked out of that role because 2 other people already picked it but that already happens in other games and at least using myself as an anecdote I don't get as dissapointed in those games because there's always the next and that loop does a way better job at retaining me than letting me perfectly pick what role I want to play.
If Blizz really cared about queue times to the calculated degree we're talking about in this video this would be the best way and the ultimate change they should've made from OW to OW2. But they didn't because truthly, the change at least to me, was always about trying to sell to higher ups that they could make the game more "FPS-y" and more marketable so that they could get more money because for years they invested in the OWL with lower returns (which is for a bunch of reasons) but they were so caught up on the fact that "it's hard to watch" or "it's hard to follow" (which is not the reason they think was killing their game) that they went with a stupid change like 5-5 and tried to justify after the fact with "we can still make it good" type of changes.
I'm a 2-2-2 6v6er all the way but beyond that, role queueing should've never existed as the way we play the game today. I've definitely played modes before where they implemented a form of role locking without having a role queue and yet they went with the most restrictive implementation of 2-2-2 right out of the bat to fix a problem that only got so bad because of all their other problems they couldn't get around to fixing.
I can see what you're saying but I'm skeptical of the idea of locking the roles after matchmaking rather than before. My experience of "gamer psychology" in games like Dota and League of Legends is that if someone doesn't get the exact role they want, they're often going to want to throw the game than trying their best to off-role. It would be very annoying to see "DPS or throw" every other game. And even when people are willing to try their best, you're undoubtedly going to have to constantly play with teammates on their off-role.
I wonder if the current trajectory will lead to a further decrease in tank players to the point where it's a ridiculously small number queueing up when the requirement to win on tank in the current state of game is to constantly switch, being unable to just lock in the character you want if you want to win (unlike the other 2 roles). At what point will sacrificing the enjoyment of tank players for short term gains affect their player pool so much that it's just the same as - if not worse than - if we had a revamped 6v6. We've seen more and more tanks switching off the role partially or even entirely increasingly in recent times, and if nothing can really be done in 5v5 aside from just homogenising the the tanks to the point where they're all generalists with no matchup interactions (which is a horrible idea in itself) then would 6v6 actually improve queue times?
Even in the current state, we cannot say for a lack of data. From an outside perspective, it seems like the devs' hands are tied, and that they're simply unable to approach 6v6 for the short term monetary gain of their bosses.
Just let them hemorrhage tanks until there 10% or less of the player base. As soon as it's a problem for Q times they'll be open to the discussion on 6v6 or anything that makes the game better.
You realize tank mains were less than 10% of the playerbase in 6v6 in the metal ranks (where 90% of the playerbase was)
@@glasspaper3 do you have stats for that? Would be interesting to see the proportion of players across the ranks for ow1. Also, considering that they left the game in an awful state of balance for 2 years, I don't think that data provides a compelling argument
@@dumass804 tank queues in gold/plat were literally instant for years while dps and support queues were multiple minutes. This was with the awful ticket system too
@@glasspaper3dps queues were regularly 10-15 minutes in plat lol
Playing tank used to be fun. There were so many fun comps to play. Now tanks just sit at the front and eat damage. It’s always the same
yes, and that is why the queue times are still so uneven in 5v5
@@kulbabus then imagine how it would like with 6 vs 6. Waiting for 6-10 min per QP match even we know it is already not good balance wise as we talk about QP
I advise to not play tank no point if blizzard doesn't care
@@michakoaczkowski4878 It's not even remotely fair to compare late OW1 queue times with current OW2 queue times, because there are many factors that can influence queue times, not just format; which is why the devs need to do a 2-2-2 Quick Play: Hacked as often as needed to test 2-2-2 vs 1-2-2 queue times in OW2.
In OW1, the severely imbalanced hero roster of 8 Tanks, 17 DPS, 7 Supports (we did not get a SINGLE new Tank or Support hero after 2-2-2’s release btw), CC not being reduced/removed from DPS & Supports until OW2 (CC still needs further reduced), problematic Tank designs like Roadhog & Wrecking Ball (still haven’t been addressed), and bad + slow hero balance (eventually balance patches stopped completely) are all what hurt OW1, 2-2-2 is not at fault at all.
5v5 with Tank designs like Doomfist, Orisa, Roadhog & Wrecking Ball make it an absolutely miserable experience for me and many others as well. Even if we fix these 4 problematic Tank designs, 5v5 will never be as replayable as 6v6. Counter-swapping constantly will always be a major issue in 5v5, and only having 1 Tank per team significantly reduces the amount of unique experiences you can have in game. If we want players to like the game more, have more play time, etc. then 5v5 is not the answer.
@@kulbabusDPS players regularly had to wait for 10-15 minute queues in the metal ranks with 6v6. People still hated the role in OW1
Like I said inside of a comment of a comment on a video.
6v6 was simply the better version of the game,
Required team play, tanks couldn’t rock paper scissor each other and tank compositions were map dependent and the second tank would usually cover the other tanks weaknesses.
5v5 has this very casual deathmatch play style which devolves to teams in a causal sense just shooting at each other til someone dies on a respective team and then you full send wipe a team and keep pushing the point to the point you’d never get off the payload because you wouldn’t need to full reset due to the self healing changes.
I understand that this game is a lot more approachable for a newer player base but when you shit on your older set of players by dumbing down the original game to the point of these project and hitbox size increases I don’t think any of these newer players would had survived in the older game.
We had skill expression such as matrix movement which is manipulation of the hitbox by little nuances such as looking down while facing away from the enemy widow hiding your head hitbox but instead of people adjusting and learning these things we just nerf every character to the ground then revert everything by throwing more health on everyone and making certain characters way too strong with these projectile changes.
I just don’t understand the balancing of this game and who it’s truly for, but it’s clearly not we’ll fleshed out or thought about too hard with some of these changes being there for the sake of changing things.
"Required team play, tanks couldn’t rock paper scissor each other and tank compositions were map dependent and the second tank would usually cover the other tanks weaknesses."
Yes, but people didn't coordinate. Instalock roadhog in half my games, tanks that refuse to coordinate, hoping that the other tank isn't also a main tank player (couldn't really play off tank, most people wanted to play that role rather than main tank), being forced on weird heroes to make a viable team comp, etc. 6v6 was the much better experience in organized play, but when playing outside of a tank duo the role was absolutely awful to play. The best parts of 6v6 were absent in random games, especially if you wanted to solo queue (how most people play the game).
@@lumenox8541 you still get that roadhog player now, but now hes 2x more likely to be the reason you lose, you didnt need a viable team comp you needed to play better than the enemy team, if you could play an abysmal team comp and win a gm game what is it about characters that stop plat or diamond players from making better decisions
The amount of teamwork and skill expression is still the same
The only difference now is 5hat counter picking is a bit more straightforward and easier to see because you have 1 less variable to think about
You see this with the view of a player not the company, that's why you don't understand
@@El_chara did you miss the part where I said 5v5 is easier to approach?
Or did you just assume that I don’t understand that this game is literally built to inflate the new player base egos with artificially inflated skill via hit boxes plus many other factors.
Because I remember when I use to only be good at overwatch and my skill didn’t translate to other games and then I went to learn how to actually play other fps games and went back to overwatch and realized I wasn’t good, but now the intention is to have players only feel good about playing overwatch by making the game much easier so they are discouraged by playing other games because they’re simply “too hard” or not interesting because they’re simply not good at them the same way as overwatch.
If you want to know how I look at the game from a business standpoint they also changed the whole monetization system because lootboxes weren’t making them enough money because most players would unlock everything for free, as well as coming full circle from overwatch being different to other games by copying games like apex.
So I understand that there’s a business model to uphold whether it be the monetization system or the way the game is played to make it more accessible to a newer playerbase, but when you ostracize you’re original player base how is that a good business move? Please tell me how else should I be looking at the game especially when my comment was in reference to the player bases experience?
I agree that queue times are probably the reason as to why they made 5v5. However, I think that if the tank role continues to be as miserable as it is, the queue times are going to get higher and higher as people will stop playing tank entirely. So if tank is not fixable in 5v5, either you're forced to go back to 6v6, or go back to open queue.
Then they will just get make the game 4v4
Yeah you said it in 90 secs. The game was more chill then, but everyone was still learning... I stopped playing when they stole my box collection, and my meaningless levels.
What?!?
The developers can't just spawn in a bunch of nonexistent players who only want to play tank?
Also having 5v5 means a new player would not play tank cause they would feel like there is more pressure being the only player on that role
If they think it isn’t good for the live game, why don’t they just whack it in the arcade section with role lock enabled in the mode ?
Man, tank used to be my favorite role in OW1. Synergizing with my other tank gave me some of my highest highs. I definitely miss that feeling. Now tanking feels like a chore most of the time and constantly feeling the need to swap is exhausting. Such a bummer to me.
Make Overwatch Great Again, bring 6v6 back
It's not even remotely fair to compare late OW1 queue times with current OW2 queue times, because there are many factors that can influence queue times, not just format; which is why the devs need to do a 2-2-2 Quick Play: Hacked as often as needed to test 2-2-2 vs 1-2-2 queue times in OW2.
In OW1, the severely imbalanced hero roster of 8 Tanks, 17 DPS, 7 Supports (we did not get a SINGLE new Tank or Support hero after 2-2-2’s release btw), CC not being reduced/removed from DPS & Supports until OW2 (CC still needs further reduced), problematic Tank designs like Roadhog & Wrecking Ball (still haven’t been addressed), and bad + slow hero balance (eventually balance patches stopped completely) are all what hurt OW1, 2-2-2 is not at fault at all.
5v5 with Tank designs like Doomfist, Orisa, Roadhog & Wrecking Ball make it an absolutely miserable experience for me and many others as well. Even if we fix these 4 problematic Tank designs, 5v5 will never be as replayable as 6v6. Counter-swapping constantly will always be a major issue in 5v5, and only having 1 Tank per team significantly reduces the amount of unique experiences you can have in game regardless of role. Having a 2nd Tank per team makes DPS & Support players feel like this is a team game much more consistently, because only having 1 Tank often means inconsistent team protection, whether it be from the front or from a flank. If we want players to like the game more, have more play time, etc. then 5v5 is not the answer.
What's your answer then, especially after watching this video?
think he said it, try a qp hacked. Blizzard is actually adding content to their game and actively balancing it as well. Playing double shield every game wasn't fun, the game was literally abandoned. I have faith that 6v6 would be better with current dev team.
So I guess by the logic that more optimised experiences and queue times is the best move for the game, It would therefore be logical for the game to go to open queue to further lower queue times.
Might even have positive benefits on monetization as it's likely open queue would further diversify players hero pools by necessity (especially if you introduce role limits with open queue) making the perceived value of battle passes and skins in shops higher since you are statistically more likely to play that hero.
So consider this my pitch for the reintroduction of open queue as the default way of playing the game (preferably with role limits to prevent degenerate strategies).
Open queue probably doesn't optimize the perceived experience, especially if you introduce something like role limits after a game starts, because players will very often feel like they don't get to play the role that they want. If you just go straight open queue it'll probably result in a ton of sub-optimal comps because no one wants to play what the team needs.
it was definitely a good video and you had alot of valid points that i agree with. One thing i would like to point out is that, atleast in the current state, i am afraid we wont be able to keep even the current tank players as the tank experience is horrendous. Yes 6v6 wont magically spawn new tank players which is true but i would like to assume that it would better the experience and make help in tank player retention. Obviously the trade off would be the queue times but i guess blizzard will have to decide on something sooner or later
thats what im saying. 5v5 is a deathmatch because theres one tank to protect you
theres this crazy idea, what if every player could pick any hero at any moment, and the game would be balanced so no role is necessary in order to win
That is a crazy idea, could literally never be balanced.
This caused an issue in early OW1 where you'd get 6 dps on one team, leading to them getting instantly steamrolled. Open queue relies on players actually being willing to flex, which was oftentimes not the case
Coming back after some additional thoughts, perhaps a flex role position could help alleviate some of that stress
@@blah69epic The whole video is about sacrifising the enjoyment of the few in order to shorten queue times
@@blah69epic LoL system of autofill and preffered roles is an ideal solution of being easy to implement and working well.
Or just remove the role lock entirely, weaken tanks and buff self healing passive, just like it works in Paladins (oh the irony)
I'm glad someone finally said it. It is, indeed, 100% about making more cash.
I don't understand this arguement. 5v5 has not made me buy more things. And I main tank.
@@RacingSnails64 I always find it a bit baffling how whenever an argument is made regarding financial incentives in a game, there is always a group that stands up and says "I don't spend, so therefore the argument doesn't hold water."
If you're resistant to flashy skins and microtransactions and blinking "click me" messages on the shop, then that's awesome. I'm glad their hooks don't affect YOU. But the reality is that if a corp can keep as many people playing as they can, the chances of "catching" someone is exponentially higher. Deleting a tank hads inarguably reduced queue times, which means more players play longer. Players playing longer means they have extra emotional investment. Extra emotional investment means more hooks into a person's wallet.
@@MegaArconehh this is kind of making connections. It's the time spent playing that makes more money. 5v5 on its own has not made anyone spend more money.
It's rough though because they said for a long time that it was about queue times. You need people to play the game for it to stay alive, whether it is to get money or just keep community.
@@RacingSnails64 dps players are more likely to play the game if they don't have to spend 10-15 minute queues. More time playing the game means the player is more likely to spend money on OW instead of switching to other games to get a game quicker. DPS is by far the most popular role.
I would add in that the tank experience is probably the worst in the game as well, because you are in front of the team everyone is going to blame you for every lost fight and you get flamed 90% of the games for no reason at all
As a tank player who mainly plays QP I find this to be true about half the time. Although on the flip side if you know what you're doing and hard carry it feels really rewarding.
As a Winston main, it’s crazy how often I get blamed for other people’s mistakes. I can have the best stats on the team, but it doesn’t matter because my teammates don’t like my hero choice. If I have more kills than the rest of my team, it’s my fault for playing selfishly and not making space. If I’m not getting more kills, then I’m doing nothing. It’s fucking agonising.
The one point of agreement between 5v5 and 6v6 boosters is getting extremely worried when a tank locks hog.
Removing a tank and making the role worse is why the queue times issue has returned. They cant figure out how to make tank work, despite being told a million ideas by content creators and pros.
Losing my off tank sucked.
Dps and supports are too "solo carry" designed to encourage synergy with your tank.
Its a lonely role, has been since October of 2022.
Just remove the tank role. 4v4 fps game, you can move some tanks to dps or support, but delete the rest of the tanks and brigette. Make it the Valorant clone Blizzard wants it to be.
Then why not open queue?? Instead of 5v5 role lock
Because open queue means you're gonna get mostly DPS players and it's unfun without a balanced comp
You get 3 tanks or 4 or dps and no healers. It’s not balanced
You're free to play open queue now, but it's pretty clear that most people prefer to play role queue.
If 5v5 was to reduce queue times then it backfired. The game is now warped around it because it has to balance a single tank. Tanks become unkillable so games become longer (so longer queue times). Tanking itself has become very un-fun for many, further increasing queue times. Then there's the overall diversity of the game where with 2 tanks, you objectively had more options. Now tank strategies have devolved to sitting in spawn and counterpicking. Let's not forget the game was designed for 6v6 from the beginning; maps, abilities, walking speed--everything.
This idea was taken from paintball specifically the Xball format. 5v5 is fast paced but short enough to keep the action going
When I played OW1, I often liked to play as Orisa. I have not liked her as much in OW2, but that is because I don't like being the only tank on the team. I don't mind setting up kills for my allies, and I probably would want to play tank a lot more if there were two on a team. I usually play as support, most often as Zenyatta.
i agree with your take, but in almost all 6v6 vs 5v5 talk, the idea of a separate queue, even if its arcade, is never brought up. just give the players what they want. there are like 15 separate queues currently in overwatch, so whats the big deal? you can already 6v6 in custom matches, but id like its own mode. ive permanently moved to open queue and i lock in tank, unless 2 tanks beat me to it. 2-1-2 is the best of both worlds. 2-2-1 is fun too. open queue is better, imo, and im surprised content creators avoid open queue like it doesnt even exist.
If you want to solve queue times, remove role queue. Role queue was, like the examples you provided in your video, a core design change made to solve what was ultimately a balance problem in OW1 Brig.
Playing comp with friends as tank makes you realize that 6v6 was just better for the game, main reason: peeling; one of the main things off tanks would be utilized for is peeling for supports, kinda impossible to do that as one tank, and yeah, peeling is still required when heroes like Genji, Reaper, Sombra, Tracer, Moira, Lucio, etc are being played against, even playing as Dva, it’s not optimal to try managing both frontline and backline, that’s what two tanks were for but yeah…the developers have no idea how their games works
In no uncertain terms, Keller said; Given the choice between faster queues and making tank feel fun, they will always choose queue times.
They can absolutely have both, it's just that they were stuck with tanks that were entirely constructed with 6v6 in mind. Most of the tank roster needed heavy reworks to fit in 5v5, but they simply didn't have the dev time they needed when OW2 was in development. That, and they seem to be stuck in the mindset of "absolutely no new shields." Tanks need more mitigation abilities across the board, especially mitigation that doesn't come in the form of healing.
From a person who played ow1 tank and was and still is a tank main, the synergy aspect was a double edge sword, the synergy aspect was only fun when it worked, but most of the time you are left with people playing heroes who they really enjoy and if they happen to have a horrible synergy you would get stomped and lose until they decided to switch to better synergies or lose the match.
This doesnt add new players to the tank role, as you mention before but the other aspect also was more problematic, nobody wanted to be a main tank everybody wanted to be a side tank, so your wait times+ the population of actual main tanks existence was still at a all times low, this created a problem of if the enemy had a actual main tank and side tank vs 2 side tank mains meant you auto lose as a tanks impact was much greater back then, if you were the type of person who is willing to sacrifice their enjoyment for victory it can get boring really fast as you are always left to be a main tank because nobody wanted to be one, everybody was selfish in ow1 the concept of synergy was only good in theory but in practice was never seeen but only remembered fondly.
So everytime i here the debate 6v6 the question i will ask are you willing to play the main tank role, or are you here to play the "fun tanks".Cause the core issue hasnt changed somebody had to absorb the dmg and side tanks rarely every did the absorbing as they were more focused on creating openings with "flanks" and "picks" the main tank role was only their to aborb the dmg, the only thing we lost in the transition of 5v5 from 6v6 was ability to do whatever one of the tanks wanted as the other still had the same exact responsibilities and job it was never divided evenly as people would like to remember.
My biggest gripe was always the fact that you get 2 different leaders at the same type if you went in they stay behind if you stay behind they went in the miscomunication of not agreeing to a single plan was so infurating that you can't decide what to do, just imagine 2 leaders argueing 90% of what is the correct play, 5v5 removed that and made it more clear on who to follow or what they can do, to me it streamline the roles to encourage on what they were supposed to do, if you did your role you will climb, in ow1 it was more of struggle fest as the best way to climb was activly comunicating your moves or else you would lose, granted in ow2 comunication isnt as big as ow1 but it isnt requirement in ow2 in ow1 you had to comunicate because the reduced the inconsistency of misplays to happen.
It's always funny, people who constantly beg for 6v6 to come back never can address these legitimate and pervasive problems with tanking in 6v6. It wasn't the perfect games you'd get maybe 1 out of every 5 games. It was the 4 out of every 5 games where you'd have a team that had these problems. There's absolutely a reason why few people played tank in 6v6. My own hero choice is dramatically widened moving to 5v5 because you're no longer restricted based on your partner's hero choice too. I'll honestly never touch the role again if it moves back to 6v6
That's an interesting insight since I've played OW1. Given how unpopular tank is, I'm not surprised that main tanks would be even less popular among tank players. I anticipate that the counter-argument would be something along the lines that the move should have been to rework the tank role within 6v6 rather than change to 5v5.
you kinda just said that the best way to play ow2 the team based game is to have less team play compared to ow1 the team based game lol
@@lumenox8541 getting non synergy tanks like zarya hog was better than getting a mercy lucio on your team but nobody addresses that, at least with 2 tanks if you yourself played better than the enemy team you won the game, those tanks were way less impactful and way easier to kill, the better players won the game regardless of what characters were being played period, which is why you had people one tricking their whole time playing and actually ranking up
@@denjii9 In a sense, you can look it like that but what i meant was that having more people ≠ more teamwork, there is maximun level of comunication before it becomes confusing with orders and task, it usually sticks to a group of 3- 4, once that reaches above it no longers becomes a team and more of a squadron or squad.
By limiting roles you make it clearer on what the task should accomplish on each indivual in ow case the tank is usually the leading role as they dictacte the space and pacing, by having 2 divergent leading roles it becomes redundant and confusing as you are given the option to ignore one tank for the other, thus adding confusion on who to follow because now you are left with the question who did wrong, was it the tanks mistake in judgement or was it that lack of trust of teamates not following his move in favor of following the other tank.
By removing one member you allow for faster movement and faster decision making, as everyone is clear on what to do, there is no second guessing on who to follow, makes it easier to discern on those who will follow the plan and those who are rouge. In a sense ow2 has more teamwork requirements then ow1 as if you don't fulfill your task you exponantially affect your team more as in ow1 you had more leeway to do whatever you wanted with less repercussion because of the reduncancy of safechecks and stalling potential was much greater.
Having the need the need to constantly relay information is not a sign of a tighter teamwork but a phisicial limitation on how much information we can take as human being, ow1 showed this really well once people start comparing the ease of information and the requirements needed to execute a plan is much faster and corrected faster during a teamfight, this correction of fixing the issue makes it easier to dicern what is the best way to deal with a problem, although this encourages swapping at times it highlights easier for alot players on what was hidden in plain sight on problematic designs and flaws in kits, to me it was always their and simply putting it back to 6v6 does not fixes the issue but more like a way to hide the issues again and mask it away with numbers.
Information relay itself is a powerful tool in itself and can carry alot of weight on alot of situations but it isn't a sign of teamwork but only shows you how powerful it is when used correctly.
Teamwork is a sign of trust and understanding requiring little to no information given by simply having the same goal and knowing what you need to accomplish while also knowing how they will accomplish without uttering a word is peak teamwork.
I haven't played overwatch in ultra graphics settings in years... I forget how good it looks.
Well said. considering we will never ever have equal tank distribution among players it is much better to focus on balancing what we have and make it as good as possible (including a lot of huge reworks and other systems in line) instead of dreaming of something what in reality rarely worked as great as people described (hog players vs other tanks expectations etc.)
The queue time is only better in 5v5 IF the worst experience doesn't half the number of people willing to play tank. Which is guaranteed to happen if the role keeps getting worse and worse.
I used to love playing tank back in Overwatch 1, but the switch to 5v5 changed a lot. 5v5 makes counter picking much more powerful and prevalent. You can't share the responsibility with another player either. For supports it feels nice knowing you have a second healer that's got your back, that same feeling was true with 6v6 as tank. That's no longer the case and I think just a lot of players feel uncomfortable with that extra responsibility. Sure you can make the argument that each player has less impact on the game but I never played Overwatch to stroke my own ego to begin with. When you won it felt more like you won as a team, rather than an individual player.
Considering queue time is a valid concern. That is ultimately what killed Rogue Company for me.
You, someone, who has never played 6v6 made a better argument at why is it better, than Samito, for who at this point the defining trait is being the 6v6 advocate, which I find amusing, and also it highlights your great arguing skills. Love you content, keep up the good work
Thanks for the kinds words. Actually a lot of my ideas about 6v6 come from Samito. Maybe I'm able to present the arguments more cleanly and so maybe that's why they sound better. I respect Samito as someone who cares a lot about the game, and even though I prefer to present things more "calmly" I do like listening to the occasional Samito rant.
More player slots on either team means less of the "Rock Paper Scissors" type meta, and FAR less pressure to play any specific playstyle. The fewer players you have to experiment with, the fewer strategies you can realistically pull off. A lot of the reasoning behind Overwatch's design being for 6v6 originally was for the sake of viewing it in Esports. With Overwatch Esports being completely dead, genuinely, I see no reason to return to 6v6 as though it is some "magical number". 8v8, or hell even 10v10, would be fascinating. Would you lose a lot of individual agency in the outcome of a match? Absolutely! And as tank players have found out as of late, in most cases, having tons of innate agency over a match and not agency earned through notable skill, is horribly unfun.
No 6v6 will definitely have to come back, because if a tank is not playing properly then you're going to lose
i love these vids but it would help me follow the video if you had more splash cards or even just a list of the arguments youre presenting cause i had to go back like 3 or 4 times to process some of what you said
I think we can definitely criticize blizzard devs for their balancing mistakes, 5v5 has been out for a while and despite all the patches and reworks most of them accomplished nothing to remedy how bad 5v5 feels
Imagine how fast queue times would be if there was 0 tanks
as someone who played ow1 day one , my issue with 5v5 is how the the games' gameplay loop revolves less around team coordination and more about individual skill. sure you can coordinate a dive or a peel but in ow1 you had to coordinate who was going to engage with what ability . like starting an engagement off with a pick with an orisa pull and a hog hook . 5v5 feels more everyone play for themselves and build ult charge instead of truly being a team
“Convince 33% of the player base to play tank” but if you check over buff we had that at the end of overwatch 1s life span and the matchmaker already confirmed that 5v5 isn’t for q times🤭
Overbuff is not 100% accurate, and also where is the stat suggesting there was 33% tank playerbase?
Question why don’t people play open q ? Only thing I want for open Q is limit each team to 2 tanks keep it 5v5 and boom fun so people stop running 3 T and 2 S
The sin was the role queue, that was the thing that increased queue times, and it was introduced to kill the goats meta, because the developers couldn't find a way to fix the issue without screwing it
It was more introduced to fix the problem of 3-5 dps players on one team, the dev team admitted as much in a recent interview. Killing goats was just an added benefit. Hell, that's the main reason most tank players, including me, I know started playing tank.
@@lumenox8541The >2 dps was always a problem of the low elo playerbase since launch. Goats was something created by them way after launch, and it was killing the excitement at the OWL.
The role lock was a patch fix over goats, with the added "benefit" of restricting the dps at low elo.
@@ulaznarnah, the first “pro meta” consisted of 4-5 tanks paired with lucio as soon as the first couple of tournaments. it’s only got named goats after brig was released which made the comp even more powerful
Honestly, I hope Blizzard comes out and confirms this. It would make uninstalling that much easier for more people.
Ha yes I forgot that, but yeah, you sum well the profit incentive of 5v5: shorter queue time. Which, I should admit, even I appreciate! :)
If Q times is such an issue why isn’t removing role Q from the game ever put on the table for discussion. It’s like the tank role takes the bullet for every wrong with this game. With removal of 1 tank there’s no reason for it to have crossed over to OW2
great video
If 6v6 came back, I would become a Zarya main. I love Zarya with another tank
Even though Im fine with 5v5, I wish ppl who never tried 6v6 could try it once. Especially how broken off tanking was
Honestly, I miss putting in work with ball or hog on the side… or playing as zarya and keeping my fellow Reinhardt bubbled.
0:20 argument invalidated... lmao thank you for being honest, no flame either, it's not ur fault or anything that you didn't play ow1, can't change it now, but if you didn't play it you just can't know, it's a "you had to be there" type of thing unfortunately
3:37 OKAY NEVERMIND, THIS GUY IS ACTUALLY SO RIGHT LMAO HOLY SHIT this guy is so smart, why tf would you remove a player instead of just balancing their power??? what a good argument omfg
in 6v6 tanking was actually fun, now its just boring
DPS just needs to be tuned more correctly. No character is more evident of this than Genji, you have essentially a dive DPS that can’t even function as a dive DPS.
2 tanks 3 dps 3 supports would be fun. full blown chaos but fun
I'm exclusively a tank player, both in OW1 and OW2. Is it weird to say I enjoy 1 tank better than 2? I like not having to rely on someone else to create space. Plus the reality is you would get two off-tanks or a hog counterpart. Tank synergy is over-hyped because it was actually quite rare in OW1. That being said I'm a metal ranks player, that might not be true in the highest ranks.
I am always shocked so little people see it...
Your experience is pretty much the same as mine (except I'd argue that if you didn't have tank synergy and they did it was pretty much a loss from the beginning), and I've been high elo since OW1. I think it's a main vs off tank difference tbh. Most people played tank in OW1 to play off tank, main tanks were a rare breed. Eliminating one tank meant eliminating the off tank role (off tanks playstyles don't function as well without a main tank to enable)
I was Plat in OW1, and my q times were 1 - 5 mins max. (2022)
I will say let Blizzard create a 6v6 game mode in Arcade then we will see what happens
I need to know how he makes his game look so good
Love the psychological and economic rationale, well structured arguments with strong points. 6v6 crowd needs to understand that it’s unrealistic. Yes company financials is a big part but that merely reflects the player psychology. The psychological explanation of tanks is absolutely correct in fact it leads over to the real psychological understanding of gamers and even more so society. If games are meant to relax and to escape responsibilities then the role that applies that pressure is avoided. In fact this bleeds further over into general economic conditions and the rise of free to play to games and game popularity. Games fulfill our psychological needs not fulfilled by modern society. The fact like games like call of duty and destiny are so popular is because they are dopemine pumps that give the illusion of success for very low effort. I could go on and on about this, either way great video.
Honestly as someone who left the game a long time ago you sound like addicts who cant quit but must rationalize your shitty decision to keep playing so you can tell yourself nothing can be done to change things....like an abused partner who gots back after being beaten....
If people were willing to stop playing they would 100% reverse the changes because it hurts their bottom line, but yall are addicts who cant admit it. The video game industry is one of the most anti consumer because its filled with addicts who cant let go. All the scummy consumer tactics wont change for the same reason 5v5 wont. yall are addicted.
I think the social weight of tanking in overwatch is too high for a casual player, given how much people will flame tanks because its the most obvious point of failure
Funny enough i had a discussion with my fiends about this yesterday, disregarding the finafial side if things imo 5v5 just is not balanced around OW as a game. It was designed for 6v6 for specific reasons having a main tank to protect your foward push and an off tank to protect your backline and or dive the window, ashe, enemy supports etc. At a normal skill level with 5v5 if u as the tank play a dive tank to go off and kill an enemy you run into the problem of your team being annihilated and it's your fault. I love tank, ile never stop playing tank but 5v5 does not favour tanks. Unless they become more outrageous than they are which I am not advocating for the tank experience will always be shite. To actually make it work they would need to rebuild the game frim scratch with new map design's and full hero reworks. Also disregarding money and time spent i just also think 6v6 will never come back because then the devs/blizzard would have to swallow their pride and say "We made a mistake" which lets be honest isnt going to happen lmao. The thing on tank mentality is spot on but again 5v5 makes takes the center piece of arhe team and loosing your tank in a fight probably means u loose the fight and alot of people arent going to want to be the center of the enemies attention. 6v6 atleast it was spread out between 2 people and with good tank synergy it was fun. I just miss diving with my tank buddy who was a ball main, Winston and old doom were my Ow1 picks the good times are well and truly gone xD
I'm still gonna play the game regardless but I've never seen so many insane changes to run a gameplay experience into the ground for a specific role
I hear the argument that Blizzard won't revert to 6v6 because of pride/ego, but Season 9, and the Mid-Season 9 update already shows that they are more than willing to make drastic changes to make the game better, and revert changes as well. I really don't think it's that deep. If 40% of the player base wanted to play tank, they would have kept 6v6. The fact that only 10-15% of the player base wants to play tank even when tank was apparently really awesome in OW1, is why they switched to 5v5. The overall market simply doesn't want a game that is composed of 33% tanks, even if that game is better, because most people just want to play damage/support.
13:30 we have been spending like 2 years doing the same for 5v5
i think u underrestimate the amount of people willing to play tank in 6v6 (cause 5v5 has basicly alienated all the flex players from tank and there are also more tank heros now)
support in 5v5 has proven that if blizzard makes the role attractive enough, players will flock to it
to me the problem with tank in 5v5 is not really the fact that you get hit with everything in the game its more that you have no choice other than to be hit with everything in the game because 5v5 is so goddamn linear and boring
i guess we just need all the remaining tank players to be so fed up that they also stop playing the role xD or just play 6v6 in custom games
People didn't play the tank role because it sucked ass in 6v6 too. It's inherently an unpopular role *everywhere*
You are right that if the tank role is very impactful (like it was at the start of OW2) then it becomes more popular, but the fact that tank needs to be OP to be a popular pick is why Blizzard sees tank as an issue. Ideally you want each role to have similar value, and when tanks aren't particularly strong, the role just has a tendency to be unpopular. In addition, unfortunately most non-tank players see a tank meta as being unfun. Every time tank is strong, non-tank players complain that the game sucks and so Blizzard is incentivized to keep tank in a perpetual weaker state.
Overwatch was such a special game it breaks my heart some people wont ever get to play it 😢 (ow2 isnt overwatch)
I like solo tanking I’ve never had more fun in my 5 years of OW than when OW2 fully launched (lil biased bc Dva is my main and she was OP for like that first month and not everyone had figured out the zarya part of the rock paper scissors)
like people really do have rose colored glasses about what 6v6 2 tanks was like. I’ve pretty much almost always solo queued comp and ironically I was forced to not play my favorite tanks (Dva and then sigma when he came out) more often in OW1 than I ever am now in OW2. If I’m forced to switch now it’s bc of successful counter swapping from the enemies which is really annoying don’t get me wrong, but what is infinitely more annoying than being counter swapped is
1. Your fave tank being selected before you can pick them at all
2. Being forced to go a tank you didn’t wanna play because your 2nd tank is a useless hog/ball running around feeding (intentionally or not)
Those two issues being permanently gone with the format change felt so refreshing. My gripes with tank balance right now have less to do with format and overall tank philosophy. I don’t understand the issue of tanks being considered “raid bosses” idk what a raid boss actually is but ya know what it sounds sick af and tanks having that reputation has a better chance of getting people to check out the role more at least imo
You don't have a second go-to tank? You could've also asked the other tank player if you could play that hero, but I understand that they won't always be nice and actually switch. As for your second point, I feel like being forced to switch tanks is still prevalent in OW2, especially if the opposing team has one or 2 dedicated counters. I think a second tank could cover those weaknesses. But I also remember having to switch from the tank I wanted to play because my second tank would play a tank that wouldn't synergize with the rest of the team😂
Just the fact there not willing to compromise & at the vary least put a 6v6 gamemode in arcade once a month is just not right.
I think just throwing in the towel because people aren't queuing for one role is silly to me, and you just make the overall game experience suffer because of it.
Never agreed with a 5v5 vs 6v6 take more.
Would LOVE to see Samito respond.
Maybe it’s cause there’s half as many tanks and supports as DPS heroes 😱 tanks have like 10 characters and supports have like 8 characters to choose from while DPS is now like 20. No shit there are less tank players, there’s less characters to pick, and now people have to solo tank and be blamed instead of sharing tank role with another player. This also removes synergies, and many of these tanks were designed to be played WITH ANOTHER TANK. Like Zarya + Winston.
It’s also more stressful/easier for NEW tank players to not be the only tank, and now it’s MORE stressful and responsibilities for someone to try and pick up tank cause if they mess up the team fight isn’t instantly over.
Blizzard shot themselves in the foot, they should have added way more tanks and balanced them instead of removing a role. 6v6 was way more fun and less stressful as a tank main. They could have just reworked shields and fixed the double shield meta.
Now blizzard is adding another DPS… oh well.
If they actually cross-referenced data, I'm sure it would show that people DO want to play Tank in OW2. They just don't want to play solo tank. Go play a few games of Open Queue.
They have many talented people with advanced degrees in data analysis, I'm sure they have the data that people DON'T want to play tank. Assuming that they have the data showing that more people want to play tank in OW2 and are actively sticking their head in the sand about it is moronic.
@@lumenox8541 You're ignoring the argument. Go play Open Queue. People like playing Tank. They have some of the most active and fun abilities in the game. The reason people didn't like playing Tank in OW1 was because passive action isn't engaging. However... They fixed that with OW2 by reworking some of the egregious outliers (mainly Orisa), and with added new tank heroes. The only reason people hate 6v6 is because of their experience with it at the time. If they had offered OW2 as a patch, and then added in new Tank heroes, I bet the Tank community wouldn't be so miserable right now.
The fact that they don't even want to TRY a QPHacked weekend with a 6v6 is all I need to understand that they are just too prideful.
I see what you're trying to say, but the open queue experience isn't a good representation of the population of Overwatch as there is a very specific selection bias. Generally the people who queue for open queue are already willing to flex and play a tank if they have to, and some like myself play it specifically for the silliness of seeing multiple tanks. The people who aren't willing to flex or deal with multiple tanks, aren't going to queue in open queue which means their opinions don't get represented in the open queue data. Considering the difference in popularity between role queue and open queue, the data suggests that most people prefer the more restricted experience of role queue with one tank.
@@Casual314 But then what about the people already queueing Tank combined with Open Queue players? Surely that equals up to at least 33%.
All I'm saying, is that it's kind of disadvantageous to lock something back, even though they agree that it's a better format, just because of queue times that existed in OW1.
Perfect explanation. Rip 6 v 6
4v4 actually is the best I have tried it in a custom match and it works quite well. 1 tank, 1 healer 2 damage.
And because of TikTok peoples attention spend are so short so faster matches and short queue time
That actually wouldn't shorten the queue times, and would only serve to lengthen the queue times for the support role which is a very popular role nowadays. The only reason removing a tank shortened queue times was because less than 33% of the player base wanted to play tank. Right now more than 40% of players want to play support so reducing the available space for support players to fit would increase queue times for supports.
you don't want your new players waiting in a 5 minute queue for a 5 minute game 20 minutes later only to get steam rolled in a 5 minute game tanks have 18% pick rate i thank they need to bring 6v6 back make it a special game mode or a bit to let new players try it and see is they like it more and if more players like it more maybe make it the default if not i got nothing
> start video expecting brain damage
> 10 seconds in, "6v6 vs 5v5 is one of the balance related topics"
Dislike and walk away
How tf are people THIS disconnected
This isn't a balance issue, it's a core game design issue and 5v5 has entirely ruined the game
Stop the fucking cap already
it really doesn't matter because blizzard killed this game years ago.
Let's just get rid of tanks altogether. Seems like no one wants to play them and the ones that do have a bad time, like me
5v5 will never be fun.
I know it's subjective but I have loads of fun with 5v5. It's fast and frantic and your decisions matter so much more.
6v6 was never, at any point more fun than 5v5
@@rodrigo7602 OW2 hasn't won goty, and the game is generally considered a worse product than OW1 so thats a cap
@@xRichieeexwith the games that are out right now of course it's not getting game of the year lol
@@xRichieeex dont care, you dont get to decide whats fun to me lol
it's surely more of a live service issue than a free to play issue, the incentives are the same, just exaggerated, so any live service game in a capitalist society needs to have as big of a playerbase as it can muster to be successful
The big problem with tank was it got one new hero for every 3 dps
🫵🏻🤡 this aged well
I'm sorry Casual but I really feel like you missed the mark here.
Starting with the bit about solo tanks needing to be raid bosses: This comes from an insistence that the role must be about standing in chokes and holding space for eternity, whereas I think the devs have been trying to push the role more into the Engagement category, where you should have tools to initiate combat and take SOME aggro, but not hold down the fort 1v5. Tanks are no longer THE map control role, but instead like much of the rest of the game that has become a team-wide responsibility. This is the same argument against the claim that the "magic" of tank-duos is gone. You can "off-tank" and support your tank friend with either other role, you just have to go about it in a different way. In a PvP game there is no magic "aggro" button, and therefore nothing that makes a tank much better at drawing attention than any other hero.
Regarding off-angling, this is I think one of the biggest perks of 5v5. It was awful in OW1 to always have a tank in your face no matter where you went, and it made the already dominating heores feel inescapable, especially if your team had the worse tanks. Need to get past this Orisa standing in choke? Well that's fine, you can use mobility to get around them on many heroes. The difference between doing that now and in OW1 is now you can actually fight for that angle and take it yourself, whereas before you would most likely just get a Dva flying into your face and you'd have to turn around or hope your tank tries to help you.
Do tanks make the game feel like OW? Entirely subjective of course, but again this comes down to a different argument about whether OW should be more MOBA or more FPS, and that's been going on literally since launch so I don't think we'll have a definitive answer any time soon. I also think your point here about tanks being the exclusive creators of space and therefore the cornerstone of the OW experience is just wrong. A Widow also creates space through her kill threat; a Sym can deny space with her turrets; a Lucio can quite literally create space by knocking enemies out of advantageous positions. The difference is in how they do it, and historically the methods tanks usually employ to create space are some of the most hated (Barriers, hard CC).
You make a point about DPS players not playing tank because they have to be okay not getting kills. . . Again, not sure how true this really is. For starters, there are several clips of prominent tank mains like Super, Flats, or Emongg complaining about not being able to get kills (Even often when they're outnumbered), so clearly that's not even how tank mains feel. Furthermore, tanks were always quite capable of damage in OW1; for all the valid complaints about what spawned GOATS, the one nobody ever talks about is the fact that tanks could actually do enough damage on their own to break through such a sturdy comp.
Lastly, the argument that 6v6 is more competitive because it's more complex is honestly just ego-stroking. Nobody would ever say soccer isn't competitive because there aren't two balls on the field, or that basketball needs a few extra players to be a real "competitive sport." What makes something competitive is A. the reasonable potential for either side to win (equal opportunity/resources), and B. the passion of the individuals taking part and their drive to win. Comparing complexity changes the competition from being between people in one activity to instead comparing activities themselves.
Didn't mean to write a novel but this is such a tired debate and frankly one you probably don't have the experience to really be arguing for (Not to mention you're starting to sound like Samito beating this dead horse).
You don't have to apologize if you disagree. I don't really support 6v6 or 5v5 specifically even if I made more arguments for the design of 6v6 in this video. I'm mostly paraphrasing the arguments I've heard, and I only agree with them in theory.
But to start, the bit of about referring to tanks as raid bosses just refers to the fact that tanks have to be tankier than they were in OW1 to do the same job of holding space, which means individually they're more "raidbossy" because they're harder to kill. The raid boss label also just comes from the fact that they're virtually impossible to 1v1 for a non-tank hero, within the effective range of the tank, without exploiting some kind of obvious weakness. I would argue that tanks do in fact hold space better than any other hero individually. If a tank is chasing you down, and you have no one helping you, you basically have to run away, which is why tanks are labelled as the space creators in the first place, even though technically anyone can create space to some degree.
You are probably right that 2 tanks makes the non-tank off-angling experience terrible. But 6v6 proponents would argue that that's an issue of maps being too limited rather than the format being the problem. When I was referring to it being easier to off-angle, I was actually referring to the tank. You can appear in different positions, but you can't really off-angle as a single tank, as whatever angle your holding as a single tank would instantly become the main angle as every enemy looks in your direction. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I think some tank players would prefer not being the center of attention.
I acknowledge that other heroes can hold angles and take space, but I maintain that tanks introduce a unique aspect of holding space that isn't present in other FPS's. The idea of having a virtually "unduelable" force on a team is fairly unique to Overwatch, and I would argue significantly affects the "feel" of the game. Maybe calling it genre defining isn't fair since technically you need every aspect of Overwatch to come together to be Overwatch, but what I'm really trying to say is that tanks are an important part of what makes Overwatch different to other FPS's.
Regarding the quote about "dps have to be ok not getting kills", I think you may have misunderstood or perhaps I should have worded it better. I'm trying to say that tanks aren't "killers" and so dps mains don't tend to enjoy tank.
For competitiveness, I think we can label things as more or less competitively interesting based on the design of the game. For example, we can probably say that chess is more competitive than rock-paper-scissors in the sense that there are more things to talk about in chess than there is in rock paper scissors. Similarly, 6v6 proponents generally argue that 6v6 has more depth at the highest levels than 5v5. Obviously there's a limit since 100v100 probably also has less depth than 6v6, because eventually too many players introduce too much chaos to be a reasonably interesting game. In general, I would speculate that 6v6 has more details to talk about even if there is still a lot of depth in 5v5.
Why not have both? Otherwise many OG players will likely never return so fuck your queue times anyways
Roadhog Mauga and orisa destroyed the game and made it boring tbh.
Well, this is aged like milk.
12v12
remove role que. you should be able to play all roles. get gud casuals.
Why would deleting role que force people to play more roles?
theyre gonna be spending years of development time and money reworking heroes and maps to improve 5v5, thats what theyre doing NOW, 6v6 would genuinely be a lot cheaper long term than having to rework most tank characters and redesign entire maps because the lack of a tank makes widow maps unbearable to play
All that depends on whether or not it's possible to get 33.33% of the player base to play tank, which I would predict is unlikely even if tank were the best role in the game. I would speculate that there aren't that many people who refuse to play Overwatch specifically because of Widow. The players who consistently complain about Widow (myself included), are already consistently playing the game anyway. Meanwhile there probably are plenty of people who would stop playing if the queue times were consistently longer than 5 minutes. You're probably right that the investment in fixing 6v6 would have been cheaper, but you lose out on the potential profits gained by switching to 5v5, and so in terms of revenue - cost = profit, 5v5 is better.
@@Casual314 short term profit also doesnt mean the game will do well enough to be sustainable long term, esports do so much for the perception of a game and how many people play or interact with the game at all and i just cant see 5v5 reaching anywhere near the competitive heights the previous game could. They dont even need to make tank the best role they just need to make heroes fun and implement a queue system like league has, they could also make quickplay open queue since being competitive doesnt matter there and thats how most casuals interact with the game, effectively eliminating any queue issues.
i think them leaving tank the way it is now will lead to the same queue issues they ran into previously when tank was unfun to play during double shield, the more miserable the role is the more dps players have to sit in queue its just a matter of time before theyre forced to actually solve their issues instead of ignoring them
hey, hope you're having a great day
*is playing mauga*
euehehehehhehe this guy gets it >:)
6v6 is dog shit. It won’t change anything. It will just make it less skillful and less competitive. That’s why ow1 was dying. If 6v6 was a thing balancing would be absolutely impossible.
wrong bring back 6v6 its better more fun
I still think that 6v6 should return if Bizzard really cares about the die-hard player base and doesn't want to ruin all the hard work they have been putting into making Overwatch a better gaming experience than it has been for a long time now. Please revert before it is too late, Blizzard. I'm begging you to do the right thing for once. 🥺🙏❤🩹