I've been using Winter Rye mostly for weed control, living roots, and biomass mulch after flattening it once corn/beans emerge, but it's a potassium converter/scavenger too.
Zero potash works well...until it doesn't. You know my opinion on potash. It's important. After 15 years of 125% of crop removal my soil test levels are finally out of the responsive zone (sub 120ppm) and most are now 150-200ppm. As yields go up demand goes up. K and Mg are tied together and on many of my high cal, low mg soils we need to band kmag to make potash more available. No easy answer but I'm cutting N dollars way before I cut K dollars on my farm.
I can run zero commercial K where we are running Cows. But we're still putting on a tremendous amount of potash. Pretty easy to be putting down 280-350 lbs per year per acre minus the lbs the cow consumes. Our our response zone, even with a very different soil, seems to be similar to yours. So yeah, if a field where the cows were is over 300 PPM, I can safely say I can skip commercial K on that field and move it to another field.
@@jonstevensmaplegrovefarms3754 wow those are high rates. What is your soil test K on those fields getting 200# k20 a year? That's double removal in most cases.
Heck yeah, it is. It's not perfect, but We can use a manure spreader to touch areas that the cows didn't get too or areas that are low in that field and need extra. The whole point of the cow was to build a system on the farm where I don't need to buy much commercial fertilizer to grow crops I never said 0 fertilizer.I have said we can reduce how much we need to buy. And when we get the soil alive like a Dave Brant or a Gabe brown where your soil test is very high, why would you be buying any. Dave got to the point where his levels were so high and the soil was so active that he hadn't applied any commercial fertilizer for decades and his numbers were only getting better. They would test anywhere from eighty up to over three hundred. The field that I have to buy a lot of commercial potassium between the lime product, regular potassium product, and foliar feeding is the old sod fields that are about ten miles from home. No soil structure, no soil health, just dead dirt. Them fields will probably never see a cow.So, i need to use all the tools I have between strip till and cover crops, rotation... Maybe even the mold board plow to fix the field up to at least have a good starting point...
Great content as always. The latest where I'm at. First get a soil test lab you are confident in. It seems there are a few different ways to calculate potassium and CEC. I'm on Midwest labs with their nuetral ammonium accetate. Some labs just do Melich 3 extraction which for us was not good as our soils >30 CEC, particularily bad with P. Next since my soil was a 60bpa corn ground when I took it over, it needed a LOT of buildup. I'm coming to the conclusion if you want to build up your yields, you need a ratio between what the entire crop removes (leaves and grain) and the K levels in your soil. Again high CEC, so results will differ. Same goes for P. So the question I'm working on is that ratio 1:1, 3:1, 5:1 etc. It will probably drive the PHd types who like to cast wide blankets and shame farmers, but I don't see any choice locally but to find the results by brute force. So this year I have 3 corners to look at- Corner 1 High K/High P, Corner 2 High K/Low P, Low K/High P. For my soil I just got to 2.5% K as a part of CEC and consider that high (it was 1.2% when it was delivering 60bpa). It takes 1,000# 0-0-60 to add 1.5% to my %K so we're doing this carefully. Good luck up there. If you have an email I'd send you the study as it develops. Plannng on a 5 year study so the outlier global warming years can be addressed.
We Are Hay Producers mostly Hybrid Costal Bermuda.which is a heavy user of potassium We apply 1/2 in the spring nd 1/2 in Sept just before it goes dormant.... Our soil is sandy loam heavy on the samdy side.... The bright side is The grass loves Sandy land...
Cant say I have any trials. I have always included potash in my 2x2 band. Phos, not so much. I would love to try potassium sulfate but too expensive for me and hard to get ahold of. I think the happy medium for me and what I am going to try is kmag in the band and foliar some as well. That is my plan to get away from kcl and still get some potassium out there.
Richard mulvaney talks about at the end of his talks the key to increasing ao soybean yields is on ton of lime every year and dont look at your ph. To me I get out of comments like that a person really has to look at avaliable calcium with sap analysis. I also think that some of john kempfs studies were done on organics farms with heavy manure applications. I think that he is just releasing huge tie ups in the soil.(which is awsome and a huge money saver) it all has to be taken into context thats the main thing and total mineral analysis can be very beneficial. I always think start small and figure out what you're actually looking at. I have been applying 100lbs of potassium sulfate before corn and have liked the results. Im going to trying with soybeans this year and see how it goes and bump up the corn potassium.(im at or under 1 to 1.5% potassium avaliable in the soil)
Good thoughts. My dealer doesn't have potassium sulfate, so I use a 50 lb rate of potassium chloride in strip, the ash product, and then K from Conklin. They have good quality and are in Mn
@@jonstevensmaplegrovefarms3754 gasp potassium chloride... and you you call yourself a regenerative farmer! Just kidding. I think that there is a certain reality that we can only do so much. One of the reasons I'm able to use SOP is the fact that they get it in for the potatoes grown in my area and they like to have it on hand. I also order in my organic SOP which comes in totes at 1055 a ton hauled to farm.(I bet it's cheaper if it's non organic.) It is an option too. Maybe you heard Richard Mulvaneys story(I think it's his story). The story goes that an agronomist found low potassium numbers on a soil test and told the floater to go out and spread potassium chloride on a field. After it was spread they pulled another sample from the field and it was lower than the first test. So they claimed that the spreader put the potassium in the wrong field. So it was respread and tested again and was lower yet. I think it was trying to say that the chloride in potassium chloride did more harm then good. I don't necessarily know what to believe on this story. Is it the test that is faulty or is it the chloride? I think quitting cold turkey would be super detrimental to the crops.
@jonstevensmaplegrovefarms3754 gasp potassium chloride... and you you call yourself a regenerative farmer! Just kidding. I think that there is a certain reality that we can only do so much. One of the reasons I'm able to use SOP is the fact that they get it in for the potatoes grown in my area and they like to have it on hand. I also order in my organic SOP which comes in totes at 1055 a ton hauled to farm.(I bet it's cheaper if it's non organic.) It is an option too. Maybe you heard Richard Mulvaneys story(I think it's his story). The story goes that an agronomist found low potassium numbers on a soil test andtold the floater to go out and spread potassium chloride on a field. After it was spread they pulled another sample from the field and it was lower than the first test. So they claimed that the spreader put the potassium in the wrong field. So it was respread and tested again and was lower yet. I think it was trying to say that the chloride in potassium chloride did more harm then good. I don't necessarily know what to believe on this story. Is it the test that is faulty or is it the chloride? I think quitting cold turkey would be super detrimental to the crops.
@@jonstevensmaplegrovefarms3754 my other thought is I really like wheat to be able to raise a good cover crop afterwards hopefully raising biology, organic matter, and hopefully making more potassium available with the extra biomass.
Working on improving the ph first helps other things as well. The longer we get away from livestock presents more challenges too. Are you working with Joe alts on your fertility? Wondering how big of an area he covers? Thank Jon.
If you want to get a quick idea this year of shortages/surplus for your weather conditions, take a ear leaf corn tissue test at DENT. Then compare that to yield monitor results. This is when the max potassium is in for the season and it has set the yield. If you get dry after silking, that K really holds the plant.
Whats your thoughts about the fact that cows pull the calcium and p and leave a lot of k out the back end. And the thoughts that plants that cant find calcium will latch on to k instead.
So far, the mag levels in the plant test have been very high. A cow or any crop is going to pull nutrients, that's where more soil and plant testing is becoming a more used tool. I spent my life responding to what was removed from the field vs. managing the soil and seeing what is actually happening in the plant
Red River valley, just north of the boarder. Haven't put potassium down in a half century. Side by side, with and without we see no yeild difference. Soil always tests high.
When you are not applying P or K to a field? How do you make the argument that you are not nutrient mining? That's what I hear from other people is you need to apply or you are nutrient mining.
The soil is literally made of P and K . Scientists say a few granuals of soil have enough P&K for an acre of crops. Watch my other video. I tried mining a field and proved I can't with P, if someone believes that they can mine the soil, and chooses to keep buying P&K they sure can. What happens when it becomes regulated? What happens when it's no longer available to buy?
I also said the cows are providing P&K on fields, and if I can get more of a crop response from a few lbs foliar than 100 lbs dry pre plant, isn't the dry preplant the one starving the plant?
Other than sandy soils: 1) If you assay test your soil, you’ll most likely find tons of K in each acre. A traditional soil test won’t reflect this. In 100 lb of 0-0-60 there isn’t 60 lb of K. Maybe 10 lb or less. So, if you had 20,000 lb of K an acre, why would you pay for 10 more lbs? Or worry about removal. 2) Smectite clay and Illite clay are two common types. Both are naturally rich in K. Smectite is more porous, way more water holding capacity, more readily releases K, and has higher CEC contribution. There is evidence that adding KCl will alter the clay mineralogy of soil, causing Smectite clays to revert back to Illite structure. This reduces water holding capacity, reduces natural soil swelling which may increase compaction, reduces CEC, and reduces available K.
I agree with you at the end of the day. I'm trying how to figure out how to communicate this to my pops (an old school farmer) about not nutrient mining. I rent the land from him. Any knowledge on these topics is appreciated.@@jonstevensmaplegrovefarms3754
Solid points. The only reason I ask is when I have talked to people about this concept. The resistance I have received is well I should leave it like it was. (i.e. if I have 20,000 lbs of K an acre, whenever I am done farming, there should be 20,000 lbs of K) I believe you are right, but I am looking for ways how to counteract that viewpoint.@@jrwstl02
Yes. We feed grocery waste to our beef cattle. Mostly fresh produce. We were getting about 85 tons/week delivered. Now we get about 30 tons and it still might dwindle away. Walmart no longer participates in that program, they send everything to a methane digester. In other words, good luck getting useful or large quantities of food waste without the big company changing it's mind at some point. Your local places may be different. But the chains just want an easy way to throw food away and say they are doing something good.
My thought is: would there be any value in spreading spoiled produce on a field? Would it add enough nutrients, organic matter (and increase biodiversity), etc, to be worth the time? Would someone pay you to take it if it was cheaper for them than paying the disposal company? I don't know if it would work at all. It's just one of the many hair-brained ideas that's been kicking around in the empty space between my ears.
I have low CEC and I have been putting down a lot of lime and K
Have you spoon-fed K like we do N? Would be interesting to see. I am going to try it
A few guys here bale straw off to sell. In my opinion they're just giving potassium away which I will happily buy from them.
Yes. Especially if the soil is more dirt than soil and they are still buying K
I've been using Winter Rye mostly for weed control, living roots, and biomass mulch after flattening it once corn/beans emerge, but it's a potassium converter/scavenger too.
Zero potash works well...until it doesn't. You know my opinion on potash. It's important. After 15 years of 125% of crop removal my soil test levels are finally out of the responsive zone (sub 120ppm) and most are now 150-200ppm. As yields go up demand goes up. K and Mg are tied together and on many of my high cal, low mg soils we need to band kmag to make potash more available. No easy answer but I'm cutting N dollars way before I cut K dollars on my farm.
I can run zero commercial K where we are running Cows. But we're still putting on a tremendous amount of potash. Pretty easy to be putting down 280-350 lbs per year per acre minus the lbs the cow consumes.
Our our response zone, even with a very different soil, seems to be similar to yours. So yeah, if a field where the cows were is over 300 PPM, I can safely say I can skip commercial K on that field and move it to another field.
@@jonstevensmaplegrovefarms3754 wow those are high rates. What is your soil test K on those fields getting 200# k20 a year? That's double removal in most cases.
Heck yeah, it is. It's not perfect, but We can use a manure spreader to touch areas that the cows didn't get too or areas that are low in that field and need extra. The whole point of the cow was to build a system on the farm where I don't need to buy much commercial fertilizer
to grow crops
I never said 0 fertilizer.I have said we can reduce how much we need to buy.
And when we get the soil alive like a Dave Brant or a Gabe brown where your soil test is very high, why would you be buying any. Dave got to the point where his levels were so high and the soil was so active that he hadn't applied any commercial fertilizer for decades and his numbers were only getting better.
They would test anywhere from eighty up to over three hundred.
The field that I have to buy a lot of commercial potassium between the lime product, regular potassium product, and foliar feeding is the old sod fields that are about ten miles from home. No soil structure, no soil health, just dead dirt.
Them fields will probably never see a cow.So, i need to use all the tools I have between strip till and cover crops, rotation... Maybe even the mold board plow to fix the field up to at least have a good starting point...
All I heard was Mulvaney, made me thirsty for a non gay beer🤣
Ha,
Great content as always. The latest where I'm at. First get a soil test lab you are confident in. It seems there are a few different ways to calculate potassium and CEC. I'm on Midwest labs with their nuetral ammonium accetate. Some labs just do Melich 3 extraction which for us was not good as our soils >30 CEC, particularily bad with P. Next since my soil was a 60bpa corn ground when I took it over, it needed a LOT of buildup. I'm coming to the conclusion if you want to build up your yields, you need a ratio between what the entire crop removes (leaves and grain) and the K levels in your soil. Again high CEC, so results will differ. Same goes for P. So the question I'm working on is that ratio 1:1, 3:1, 5:1 etc. It will probably drive the PHd types who like to cast wide blankets and shame farmers, but I don't see any choice locally but to find the results by brute force. So this year I have 3 corners to look at- Corner 1 High K/High P, Corner 2 High K/Low P, Low K/High P. For my soil I just got to 2.5% K as a part of CEC and consider that high (it was 1.2% when it was delivering 60bpa). It takes 1,000# 0-0-60 to add 1.5% to my %K so we're doing this carefully. Good luck up there. If you have an email I'd send you the study as it develops. Plannng on a 5 year study so the outlier global warming years can be addressed.
We had to do without P back home. Government regulations you know..
What was the rule again?
What products do you use for foliar potassium on corn and beans, please?
I have been using Conklin 3-18-18, holo K from AEA, this year I am working with Doral from a video I made last year.
Thank you.
You are looking for low salt, pH neutral, plant available, not water soluble
The infurrow corn starter products make good sources.
@@jonstevensmaplegrovefarms3754 Thank you.
We Are Hay Producers mostly Hybrid Costal Bermuda.which is a heavy user of potassium We apply 1/2 in the spring nd 1/2 in Sept just before it goes dormant.... Our soil is sandy loam heavy on the samdy side.... The bright side is The grass loves Sandy land...
Excellent overview and discussion of avoiding yield drag! Well said my friend! 🌱✅
Cant say I have any trials. I have always included potash in my 2x2 band. Phos, not so much. I would love to try potassium sulfate but too expensive for me and hard to get ahold of. I think the happy medium for me and what I am going to try is kmag in the band and foliar some as well. That is my plan to get away from kcl and still get some potassium out there.
A great unknown is how much sulfur is too much? If I have 100lbs of kmag, 100lbs of ams, and 200lbs of gypsum will be darn near 80lbs of sulfur….
Very interesting topic. When you say low CEC soils, how low are you talking?
On avg around 10. Avg om will be around 2.5.
Richard mulvaney talks about at the end of his talks the key to increasing ao soybean yields is on ton of lime every year and dont look at your ph. To me I get out of comments like that a person really has to look at avaliable calcium with sap analysis.
I also think that some of john kempfs studies were done on organics farms with heavy manure applications. I think that he is just releasing huge tie ups in the soil.(which is awsome and a huge money saver) it all has to be taken into context thats the main thing and total mineral analysis can be very beneficial. I always think start small and figure out what you're actually looking at.
I have been applying 100lbs of potassium sulfate before corn and have liked the results. Im going to trying with soybeans this year and see how it goes and bump up the corn potassium.(im at or under 1 to 1.5% potassium avaliable in the soil)
Good thoughts. My dealer doesn't have potassium sulfate, so I use a 50 lb rate of potassium chloride in strip, the ash product, and then K from Conklin. They have good quality and are in Mn
@@jonstevensmaplegrovefarms3754 gasp potassium chloride... and you you call yourself a regenerative farmer! Just kidding.
I think that there is a certain reality that we can only do so much. One of the reasons I'm able to use SOP is the fact that they get it in for the potatoes grown in my area and they like to have it on hand. I also order in my organic SOP which comes in totes at 1055 a ton hauled to farm.(I bet it's cheaper if it's non organic.) It is an option too.
Maybe you heard Richard Mulvaneys story(I think it's his story). The story goes that an agronomist found low potassium numbers on a soil test and told the floater to go out and spread potassium chloride on a field. After it was spread they pulled another sample from the field and it was lower than the first test. So they claimed that the spreader put the potassium in the wrong field. So it was respread and tested again and was lower yet.
I think it was trying to say that the chloride in potassium chloride did more harm then good.
I don't necessarily know what to believe on this story. Is it the test that is faulty or is it the chloride? I think quitting cold turkey would be super detrimental to the crops.
@jonstevensmaplegrovefarms3754 gasp potassium chloride... and you you call yourself a regenerative farmer! Just kidding.
I think that there is a certain reality that we can only do so much. One of the reasons I'm able to use SOP is the fact that they get it in for the potatoes grown in my area and they like to have it on hand. I also order in my organic SOP which comes in totes at 1055 a ton hauled to farm.(I bet it's cheaper if it's non organic.) It is an option too.
Maybe you heard Richard Mulvaneys story(I think it's his story). The story goes that an agronomist found low potassium numbers on a soil test andtold the floater to go out and spread potassium chloride on a field. After it was spread they pulled another sample from the field and it was lower than the first test. So they claimed that the spreader put the potassium in the wrong field. So it was respread and tested again and was lower yet.
I think it was trying to say that the chloride in potassium chloride did more harm then good.
I don't necessarily know what to believe on this story. Is it the test that is faulty or is it the chloride? I think quitting cold turkey would be super detrimental to the crops.
@@jonstevensmaplegrovefarms3754 my other thought is I really like wheat to be able to raise a good cover crop afterwards hopefully raising biology, organic matter, and hopefully making more potassium available with the extra biomass.
Working on improving the ph first helps other things as well. The longer we get away from livestock presents more challenges too. Are you working with Joe alts on your fertility? Wondering how big of an area he covers? Thank Jon.
I haven't hired him yet. I am thinking about getting on his list so if he has an opening I could be it?!
If you want to get a quick idea this year of shortages/surplus for your weather conditions, take a ear leaf corn tissue test at DENT. Then compare that to yield monitor results. This is when the max potassium is in for the season and it has set the yield. If you get dry after silking, that K really holds the plant.
Interesting.
@@jonstevensmaplegrovefarms3754 Might save you on the labor and tissue test results. Down here everything looks like rock stars early in the season
Whats your thoughts about the fact that cows pull the calcium and p and leave a lot of k out the back end. And the thoughts that plants that cant find calcium will latch on to k instead.
Also watch your magnesium levels. Most of us that get wood ash end up mag deficit
So far, the mag levels in the plant test have been very high.
A cow or any crop is going to pull nutrients, that's where more soil and plant testing is becoming a more used tool. I spent my life responding to what was removed from the field vs. managing the soil and seeing what is actually happening in the plant
Red River valley, just north of the boarder. Haven't put potassium down in a half century. Side by side, with and without we see no yeild difference. Soil always tests high.
thanks.
Side bar, have you been on the drayton bridge?
@@jonstevensmaplegrovefarms3754 can't say that I have. I pick a side before I leave lol
what have you tried for potassium in a foliar ?
The foliar would be from Conklin. It's quality product in MN.
I agree. Sidekick is great
When you are not applying P or K to a field? How do you make the argument that you are not nutrient mining? That's what I hear from other people is you need to apply or you are nutrient mining.
The soil is literally made of P and K . Scientists say a few granuals of soil have enough P&K for an acre of crops.
Watch my other video. I tried mining a field and proved I can't with P, if someone believes that they can mine the soil, and chooses to keep buying P&K they sure can. What happens when it becomes regulated? What happens when it's no longer available to buy?
I also said the cows are providing P&K on fields, and if I can get more of a crop response from a few lbs foliar than 100 lbs dry pre plant, isn't the dry preplant the one starving the plant?
Other than sandy soils: 1) If you assay test your soil, you’ll most likely find tons of K in each acre. A traditional soil test won’t reflect this. In 100 lb of 0-0-60 there isn’t 60 lb of K. Maybe 10 lb or less. So, if you had 20,000 lb of K an acre, why would you pay for 10 more lbs? Or worry about removal. 2) Smectite clay and Illite clay are two common types. Both are naturally rich in K. Smectite is more porous, way more water holding capacity, more readily releases K, and has higher CEC contribution. There is evidence that adding KCl will alter the clay mineralogy of soil, causing Smectite clays to revert back to Illite structure. This reduces water holding capacity, reduces natural soil swelling which may increase compaction, reduces CEC, and reduces available K.
I agree with you at the end of the day. I'm trying how to figure out how to communicate this to my pops (an old school farmer) about not nutrient mining. I rent the land from him. Any knowledge on these topics is appreciated.@@jonstevensmaplegrovefarms3754
Solid points. The only reason I ask is when I have talked to people about this concept. The resistance I have received is well I should leave it like it was. (i.e. if I have 20,000 lbs of K an acre, whenever I am done farming, there should be 20,000 lbs of K) I believe you are right, but I am looking for ways how to counteract that viewpoint.@@jrwstl02
Has anyone tried food waste from a restaurant, grocery store or food wholesaler?
I've been thinking about this for years.
To use in what manner?.
@@jonstevensmaplegrovefarms3754
To put into or on the ground. I believe that the secret sauce that onelonelyfarmer uses is from fish.
Yes. We feed grocery waste to our beef cattle. Mostly fresh produce. We were getting about 85 tons/week delivered. Now we get about 30 tons and it still might dwindle away. Walmart no longer participates in that program, they send everything to a methane digester. In other words, good luck getting useful or large quantities of food waste without the big company changing it's mind at some point. Your local places may be different. But the chains just want an easy way to throw food away and say they are doing something good.
My thought is: would there be any value in spreading spoiled produce on a field? Would it add enough nutrients, organic matter (and increase biodiversity), etc, to be worth the time? Would someone pay you to take it if it was cheaper for them than paying the disposal company?
I don't know if it would work at all. It's just one of the many hair-brained ideas that's been kicking around in the empty space between my ears.