It's been a while since I did it and I've forgotten the names of the moves, but the Chen style forms contain side kicks and crescent kicks, and a couple of others. Chen style is distinctive and has quite a few striking techniques that don't show up in the newer styles.
Enshin Karate is an offshoot of Kyokushin. It has a lot of the same training and conditioning practices and tends to look largely similar. The primary differences are twofold: 1.) Enshin's creator placed a much heavier emphasis on the Japanese martial arts concept of _tai sabaki_ , which is roughly analogous to what most Westerners might call lateral movement and/or circular footwork. In Enshin Karate this is branded as the "Sabaki Method" and forms the spiritual cornerstone of the art. 2.) Enshin incorporates several of the sweeps, trips, and throws of Judo into its curriculum. It also features a bit of Muay Thai-style clinch work. These techniques are permitted in sparring & competition, albeit with some tweaks and limitations relative to their original arts. If you ever want to see Enshin Karate in action, look up clips from the "World Sabaki Challenge".
@@Tamales21 I didn't see that, nor am I particularly familiar with Eishin. I was remarking on the video's labeling and the commentator's statements regarding Enshin which he didn't seem particularly well-versed on.
Yeah it's recognizably Chen, but kind of loose and sportified. Chen is a complete martial art, with all ranges (though it specializes in close range), numerous kinds of strikes, kicks, grappling, throwing and joint-locks, and several weapons (pole, spear, halberd, sword, sabre mainly). It doesn't have any ground stuff, but that's all it's lacking really. It's pretty old (17th century IIRC), the property of the Chen clan and village (a farming village in Wen county IIRC), and it comes from a time when melee fighting was serious and fighting with weapons was the ultimate aim, for which the barehanded forms were foundational and preliminary conditioning (Chen village guys were locally famous in the 18th/19th centuries for being caravan bodyguards who used "big knives," halberds). Other styles of Tai Chi were derived from Chen in the late 19th/early 20th century (Yang, then the two Wu styles and the Sun style are derivatives, each a more distant derivation than the previous). In recent years, one of the Chen teachers has gotten interested in training up some young guys for competition; Chen Tai Chi became famous for being a consistent winner in open platform competitions in the late 19th/early 20th century in Beijing, and he wants to try and re-capture some of that old glory and dignity. As with a lot of traditional styles, the Cultural Revolution did a lot of damage in terms of people being forbidden to practice "olds" - quite distinct from earlier in the 20th century, when the Communists had actually respected traditional Chinese things, especially from the peasant class (one of the main historians who unearthed the history of Tai Chi and publicized the Chen origin of it all, Tang Hao, was a Communist). Chen suffered a period when the chain of transmission was almost broken (we only have continuity due to the strenuous efforts of a couple of the older practitioners, one of whom actually got the whole dunce's cap treatment - as it were - during the Cultural Revolution, for training the young guys in Chen village). Now of course the Chinese government favours Chen style, as well as several other older styles, as representations of Chinese culture.
@@lindltailor lol. No need for sarcasm. Do some actual research and you will know for a fact that back then the Chen bodyguard work wasn’t really full of dangers and perils. And please - life expectancy of “30”? It was already end of Ming dynasty and even before that many of the Chen villagers lived way past 70.
This is Chen Style Taiji. I watched the whole show years ago. Full Contact Fighting is practiced in Chen Village, strikes, kicks, throws are all legal on the Lei Tai!
oh dude - this event is notorious! Supposedly Chen taiji fighters but a team of sanda fighters was recruited to rep Chen village instead. They're sport sanda guys dressed up - that's it. I don't think anyone from Chen village fought in this.
@@FightCommentary I don't know Jerry - sorry. I think the event itself is about 7-8 years old. I remember the buzz in taiji circles back then (most people thinking the Chen peeps would get killed) then we saw the fights and everyone went "Hmmm...". Some suggestion that the karate guys weren't even real karate guys but I think that's jus speculation. Sorry I can't tell you more.
@@jamestan4165 There were quite a few of these events back then. I don’t think they hired sanda fighters, but I remember that their fighters cross-trained in sanda.
Most of the Chen village school members came from other sports styles before learning Taiji. They expressly go to Taiji to improve their gongfu and shuai. Taiji is a form of gongfu and is not a sport, so when they train for a sport it looks like the sport, because that's the rule set. Kinda how wrestlers who enter MMA will do some striking, not because striking belongs to wrestling. I know it's curious genius but that's how it works
I think the first karateka was Kyokushin, the second was Enshin and the third was Seidokan. Seido has the best takedowns of all the Kyokushin offshoots - it’s basically Kyokushin + Judo. Kyokushin used to allow takedowns in the 60s but doesn’t anymore which is why the other guys were getting ragdolled. I believe the kung fu guys are pure tai chi since they didn’t punch at all, except the third guy who panicked during the body shot exchange. The Chen tai chi approach is honestly brilliant. They use side kicks and spin kicks to bait people into clinching then just throw them. Works great against people you can outwrestle. Since the third karate guy’s grappling was better, however, you can see tai chi guy panic and resort to trading body shots. He managed to win presumably by push kicking seidokan guy off the lei tai, but it was clear it wasn’t going well for him.
Title says Kyokushin, Enshin, but is the second Enshin, or Isshin? Enshin is also a full-contact karate style which branched off of Kyokushin, but is more permissive of throws and takedowns in its ruleset. Isshin is a traditional (sort of) style which doesn't usually take part in full-contact competition. The Tai Chi guys presumably train full contact, but if they have backgrounds in tai chi, I think it's fair to call them tai chi guys. After all, sanda is basically a fighting ruleset. And the point of traditional martial arts training isn't to force practitioners to apply a specific curriculum of moves in combat, it's to build practitioners' abilities which they can apply to combat. When successful muay thai fighters start using moves which aren't traditional in muay thai, nobody feels the need to argue that they're not doing muay thai anymore.
Some thoughts on the whole "what is their real background" q on the taichi side. Every gym has a different style that comes from all the active students exchanging their individual styles and strategies. My sanshou gym was extremely kickboxing centric, so while we recognized more throws and kick catching opportunities than the average MT person, we probably didn't throw as many legal (in MT) throws as we could have. 1) so there should be a gym that has a sanshou style that looks exactly like that, easier to rebrand as taichi. 2) the split loose guard (one forearm up by the head, one out in front) is common in many kung fu styles, so it's not remarkable that you see it here, no matter what the fighters' real base is. 3) having only trained in my gym's style of sanshou, I could easily put on a more kungfu-looking style if I were told to, even against decent opposition. Fighters have to be adaptable and help their teammates prepare for different opponents, so you have to present different styles and habits anyways. 4) a kyokushin ruleset helps with the above. If I'm only worried about kicks to the head and not punches, I'm naturally going to be more confident with a loose guard. Sanshou guards tend to be low anyways to help with catching low kicks, but now you don't even have to worry about head punches. So that just helps you play into a more flowery style. Another tactic that came out cuz of this ruleset is the variant off of a straight sidekick into the corkscrew/crescent kick. Instead of maximizing reach, you're bearing down with your front leg on top of their guard, trying to get their hands even lower to kick over them. Bonus if you outreach them like some of the matchups here and can land that corkscrew to the head.
I have been doing tai chi for about four years, that sweep that he did in the first match looks a lot like a Tai Chi technique that I was taught. It comes from the second part of single whip; specifically the turning part. As far as those kicks go, in the style I was taught, we have a front kick, front/side kick, and some crescent kicks. Typically you’re supposed to use them at a close range situation. I was taught to put most of the work in my hip. That way I could conceal the telegraph of the kick, and it kind of shows in his performance, that he probably does have some real Tai Chi his background. I would not be surprised if he is more of a sanda guy, because I was told to understand long range striking because tai chi is more of a grappling martial art like judo. I do like how he’s grabbing the gi. That is something that I was taught to do so I could strike them and apply postures like “an” which he uses perfectly here. Again, this is just my opinion. This does not confirm that he is 100% a Tai Chi guy. But it is really cool to see some Tai Chi in the ring that works.🙌
Martial fights not based on weight , just belt , real fights do not last 3 minutes , someone is ether damaged/injured or knocked out quickly ... these type of fights usually soneone is medically care asap , these fights are no spar no jokes
New to the channel, love the content so far man. Chill, laid-back commentary that I can watch while eating lunch. I started MMA a year ago but it's a pretty big transition from TKD and it's very humbling. Love seeing the variety you present in your content.
Chen style Taiji is known to be more aggressive than Yang style, which is the most popular style and the one that many elders do in the parks. Chen style is the oldest style of Taiji from what I learned
That's half right, yes, it is much more martial than yang, I ended up abandoning yang for the chen style, but the oldest is the wudang style, which becomes extremely martial too
The second guy seems like legit tai chi to me. he has the arm movements and low stance, and he throws tai chi kicks. Tai chi favors long side kicks, kicks to supporting leg, crescent and axe kicks to bent over targets. Also, the way he throws his kicks, with looseness at the hip socket, kind of just swinging the leg out there, and not having much, if any bend or tension at the knee, thats very tai chi. Edit to add: the trips and sweeps are thai chi stuff. tai chi loves to sweep people onto their tailbone. they also like to grab the leg and stretch out the opponents groin to make them fall. another tai chi esque thing, is how they bring their kicking legs back towards their body instead of setting it straight down after a kick, whenever theyre able. especially with high kicks like axe and crescent.
Chen is ostensibly the most martial of the Taiji styles. However, I wouldn't be surprised if he cross-trains significantly in Sanda (at least for kicking). But Sanda guys also typically throw a lot of lead hooks and power jabs, which we're not seeing in this case. A lot of Kung Fu schools (at least here in the States) alternate days when they forms vs sparring vs Sanda sparring. Also, Enshin is a Kyokushin (and Ashihara) offshoot which spars just as hard but actually emphasizes side-stepping/circling out and throwing from the opponent's weak-side, so I'm a bit surprised these guys haven't done any of that (if it's not totally rigged).
@@oldschoolkarate-5oIt's just tai chi, you really noticed something unique about Sanda, it's similar to kickboxing, but with aggressive falling techniques, tai chi is more similar to shaolin, you showed very insightful in understanding the concepts, and yes, it's tai chi and the training of kick is tai chi there are also videos of him training where they train is the village chen where you only have 1 fighting style which is the traditional tai chi which is what we can see in the video
@@neokimchiWell, from the moment you enter a fight with the only style, you are representing it even if you are an amateur or not and we can search for their schools that appear on the back of the kimonos
I was doing kyokushin many years ago. One of my friends introduced me to one of his friends for a friendly sparing match . He did Tai Chi Chan style. Maybe it was Chen? Anyway, i didn't take him seriously at the start, but, oh boy, did he give me a hiding. Also, he was really lanky, but he produced so much power. Apparently, it's one of the oldest most complete fighting styles, so?
Yes, it's not that old, it was created in the 19th century if I'm not mistaken, but tai chi, especially the Chen style, proves to be extremely effective in fights due to the odds of fighting him and his stature as well.
The second guy has the stance and the foundation is solid. he also adds the extra push after the take down almost spitefully 3:53, 4:15, 4:49 & 5:17 chen style follow thru.
Tai chi, sanda, karate, kyokushin, etc. are all tools that won't autofight for you. If you are getting beat up in real time you don't think about labels but react as you trained, whether in one or multiple arts.
My guess is Wu style with some Sanda training in the mix. EDIT OK so Chen. My Wu call was based on the first guys sweeps which were very much like Wu sweeps (9 Palace steps)
Nowadays people associate TaiChi with the slow moving forms and health benefits but TaiChi is supposed to be martial also and involve training Striking -Punching and Kicking / Grappling - in Tai Chi Push hands, sweeps and throws and submissions in qin na / Training in Push Hands grappling is actually pretty useful for defense in a cage fight ------The slow forms can also be performed speeded up as each transition actually denotes defending or attacking in a fighting situation
The first and third karate fighters where from Chakuriki dojo, which was founded by the Dutch shihan Thom Harinck. Back in the day Shihan Harinck mixed different martial arts to create Chakuriki, so I guess this is a hybrid karate. The second karate fighter was clearly Enshin.
Second guy definitely looks more Tai Chi, at least he incorporates throws that look like it. I don’t know enough about Chen style, but I know they do a lot more striking and are more likely to test their art in sparring and tournaments. I’ve never seen a sacrifice throw in Tai Chi but who knows.
I really don’t think it was tai chi. It had to have been Sanda, but wearing the tai chi garbs to better differentiate maybe (or just represent China better, idk)
@@smashonlamezif I have been doing karate for over 10 years and nothing else, and I decide to learn some BJJ for about 2 years so that I can join an MMA tournament. I join the tournament and win, does that make me an MMA guy or a Karate guy?
@@shankarsatheesan6846 trick question. It depends what your style is more emphasized. For example if you do primailry karate and win that fight, you mma is karate background with some grabs take downs. If youre more integrated and have blended all the styles no one will question youre mma. But my point is for those who enter a competition but rely soley on their own style. Like a tkd who enters muay thai (with some muay thai components) if he fights using mostly a TKD system, most ppl will call it TKD. So to your point, it depends how you fought your mma fight. heres a real life example, connor mcrgregor boxed mayweather, does that make him a boxer?? even if he had won, i dont think he would even argue that. So it depends
there is definitely a lot of Tai Chi flare here. Not necessarily in the techniques themselves, but the way they are executed strongly suggests some influence.
the second karate guy seemed to be a first dan looking at his belt, so like you said, a fresh black belt. this *may have* been like his "kumite" test, in lieu of doing an actual 5 or 10 or whatever man kumite. as far as the third karate guy, he seems to have a couple stripes. Also, he has colored hair. In japan thats pretty uncommon, and usually a sign that a guy is gonna be tough. Its a cultural thing. the fact that he would refuse to conform, especially with that specific, light brownish orange hair color, means he embraces nonconformity and is willing to "stand on that shit", as it were. This, per my native born Japanese teacher. its very apparent in japanese media too, if you pay attention.
Isshinryu, is the style you expected to see, sudden, intense, acurate,powerful strikes, several strikes ending in a take down, and the one unable to continue fighting. . Isshinryu karat
In the full original video, after both know the academies and concepts, karate proves to be superior due to long-term adaptation, but tai chi proves to be superior in the beginning because apparently tai chi kyokushin does not use falling techniques, something that tai chi knows best
The throw at 0:07 exists in sanshou, but only with underhooks instead of gripping the jacket. IME, Muay Thai guys who’re good in the clinch are more skilled at that particular throw, as it’s up close and not a range that any sanshou person spends a lot of time finessing (vs kick catches and more dynamic entry throws)
they are sparring on concrete or something and they are doing takedowns and attempts at rolling thunder 😅 BADASS the second karate guy doesn't even know how to fall properly.. out of the blue, some of the best MA stuff I've ever seen online!
I can see many techniques in taichi that would work against all those kicks but none are being used!?????? Wait the tall guy is taichi??? I’m so confused now.
Tai Chi isn’t an actual martial art. It’s basically a way to train your body and mind. It’s a great way to exercise and improving your stance and body control.
Have you ever trained tai chi? Who did you train with? linked to who? so I think you don't know what Chen style tai chi is talking about, the "original" tai chi (in fact the original is from Wudang but it can also be considered Chen) it emphasizes the fight and they are from the Chen village because who Have you ever trained there or know someone, you know what it's like and I know a practitioner there, not just any one, I know a taijiquan master from that village
@@contaparajogar1666 Sure buddy. This one village has the true and only effective style. Ask them to bring forth their fighters. We’re waiting to be enlightened.
I train in sanda and the tai chi guy is not even a tai chi practitioner they are sanda fighters i notice it when they clinch the other guy use uppercut on the karate guy which is common in sanda if they end up in clinch we alwats use uppercuts
It has nothing to do with sanda friend, I trained both and I notice the difference, you are not the only ones to use uppercuts and don't forget that taijiquan came before sanda and sanda took techniques from all 500 martial arts in China
Maybe some Taiji influence but more likely Sanda... 2nd guy seemed to have better coordination etc but eh. Taiji has kicks but they aren't emphasized as much as we see in this video...
yes and sanda have concepts of various martial arts and sanda is the same thing as sanshou is a term for Chinese Kickboxing and both have the same or similar techniques but we can see the clear difference through the training
in fact, in the original there are several and several rounds where karate overcomes loses, tai chi wins and loses and both know each other's martial art and know how they fight
That's not Tai chi, He definitely fights like SANDA mixed with TAE KWON DO style. I would assume that that style is Wushu because it looks like a mix of different styles
They both don't know what they're talking about, if they know so much, I want them to talk about how each style trains, so let's see if the know-it-alls really know
This looks more Wushu than Tai Chi, Sanda maybe. It’s true that the Chen style is much more martial than the other stiles, but I didn’t see any Tai Chi techniques (I practiced Chen style for a decade or so.) Obviously schools are nowadays going beyond the traditional techniques and training other stuff.
this further supports my hypothesis that pure traditional kung fu only works against smaller opponents. (even though this ain't traditional by the look of it)
In fact, to be quite honest, the 3 that I know have combat, the tai chi style, the chen wudang style, the yang style, the chen style being one of the most effective and complete, the wudang style being extremely effective as well and having extremely blunt blows, while the yang style is the least effective, apparently which I trained and from the concepts I know, it can be trained in more effective ways, but I still recommend the Chen style, I ended up abandoning Tai Chi Yang for Chen for martiality and Wudang, I recommend it, but it is extremely difficult to find
What the heck is with the chest shields they're wearing??? No wonder they're not throwing hands, they're so scared of breaking a knuckle on hard plastic that all they could DO was kick!
It's tai chi, not sanda, the techniques used are very different. I say this because I've trained both and have you trained any of them? to talk such nonsense?
Title should properly be called " tsu chi/ northern kungfu or tae kwon do vs karate. From previous matches the chinese learned " lets get some tall guys with long reach because these karate guys are getting inside and punching the body".This competition used to also have the weapons sparring on top of the platform. Wushu was dominating it.
@@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe tai chi is an internal art not an external one it doesn't have that north or south or tae kwon I repeat please don't say what you don't know for love
@@contaparajogar1666 II repeat. In my paragraph I mentioned four different martial styles . 1) tai chi 2) tae Kwon do 3) Northern Shaolin kungfu ( my style) 4)karate For example : Somebody could've learned both tai chi and karate and used it in fighting. Therefore he is tai chi/ karate. I know they are all separate disciplines. Get it?
@@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe This event does not allow mixed styles MMA as it is a championship of traditional martial arts schools it is only tai chi what they do as they were trained by a master descendant of Chenjiagou Villager of the Chen family understood and for those who have a good understanding of Tai Chi half technique enough
yes and no yes some can but most of them don't have so many kicks the ones we can find the most kicks are in the wudang and chen styles apart from these the others have almost no kick variations
Yes, but frank exchanges where whoever hits the hardest and fastest wins and tai chi focuses on short exchanges and takedowns, things that are not the focus of kyokushin
yes ilario taekwondo has kicks and sweeps and punches and knees he doesn't even know how to joke properly strangely I trained taekwondo and my teacher said that my martial art doesn't have that many variations of kicks and I agreed strangely, right and we can see that they are always the same kicks that they use oops I forgot you don't know that lol
tai chi came well before both fights and the difference is clear, such as elbows, knees, leg grabs, projections outside the gi, things that laymen like you won't understand or because they are stupid or ignorant will know
and if you know so much about tai chi, do me a favor now put it below when you see this comment how the training of each martial art works step by step how they train judo Kickboxing and taijiquan with facts and preferably videos to prove it, if not just silence shhhh
This show looks like propaganda. The whole thing was performed like a movie. The easy wins at the start. The cute kid cheering on. And the overacting evil villain at the end who gives our hero a genuine threat. They even cast all the Karate guys as smaller dudes to make Japan look inferior in every way. The only difference is that instead of a single hero character, the style is the hero because it represents the state. You're not just cheering one man, you're cheering for China itself. I could be overthinkong this, and really it was just rigged fights with an obvious size disparity, but it seems to play out that way. PS: I was thinking the same when you said Sanda, because it looks it.
It's been a while since I did it and I've forgotten the names of the moves, but the Chen style forms contain side kicks and crescent kicks, and a couple of others. Chen style is distinctive and has quite a few striking techniques that don't show up in the newer styles.
I agree. Chen style has those kicks.
Enshin Karate is an offshoot of Kyokushin. It has a lot of the same training and conditioning practices and tends to look largely similar. The primary differences are twofold:
1.) Enshin's creator placed a much heavier emphasis on the Japanese martial arts concept of _tai sabaki_ , which is roughly analogous to what most Westerners might call lateral movement and/or circular footwork. In Enshin Karate this is branded as the "Sabaki Method" and forms the spiritual cornerstone of the art.
2.) Enshin incorporates several of the sweeps, trips, and throws of Judo into its curriculum. It also features a bit of Muay Thai-style clinch work. These techniques are permitted in sparring & competition, albeit with some tweaks and limitations relative to their original arts.
If you ever want to see Enshin Karate in action, look up clips from the "World Sabaki Challenge".
That's a great explanation. I was going to say, "I thought all Karate was Asian/Eisian".
But the guy had EISHIN KARATE on his gi. So he wasn't an Enshin guy.
@@Tamales21 I didn't see that, nor am I particularly familiar with Eishin. I was remarking on the video's labeling and the commentator's statements regarding Enshin which he didn't seem particularly well-versed on.
@@SaftonYT ah. Thanks for the clarification.
Thanks for this explanation. Question: Is there any difference between Enshin and Ashihara?
Yeah it's recognizably Chen, but kind of loose and sportified. Chen is a complete martial art, with all ranges (though it specializes in close range), numerous kinds of strikes, kicks, grappling, throwing and joint-locks, and several weapons (pole, spear, halberd, sword, sabre mainly). It doesn't have any ground stuff, but that's all it's lacking really. It's pretty old (17th century IIRC), the property of the Chen clan and village (a farming village in Wen county IIRC), and it comes from a time when melee fighting was serious and fighting with weapons was the ultimate aim, for which the barehanded forms were foundational and preliminary conditioning (Chen village guys were locally famous in the 18th/19th centuries for being caravan bodyguards who used "big knives," halberds). Other styles of Tai Chi were derived from Chen in the late 19th/early 20th century (Yang, then the two Wu styles and the Sun style are derivatives, each a more distant derivation than the previous). In recent years, one of the Chen teachers has gotten interested in training up some young guys for competition; Chen Tai Chi became famous for being a consistent winner in open platform competitions in the late 19th/early 20th century in Beijing, and he wants to try and re-capture some of that old glory and dignity.
As with a lot of traditional styles, the Cultural Revolution did a lot of damage in terms of people being forbidden to practice "olds" - quite distinct from earlier in the 20th century, when the Communists had actually respected traditional Chinese things, especially from the peasant class (one of the main historians who unearthed the history of Tai Chi and publicized the Chen origin of it all, Tang Hao, was a Communist). Chen suffered a period when the chain of transmission was almost broken (we only have continuity due to the strenuous efforts of a couple of the older practitioners, one of whom actually got the whole dunce's cap treatment - as it were - during the Cultural Revolution, for training the young guys in Chen village). Now of course the Chinese government favours Chen style, as well as several other older styles, as representations of Chinese culture.
The bodyguard work back then was really quite lax.
@@bertt1055 Yeah human society in the older days was far more civilized and lax than in recent times. Why life expectancy was 30
@@lindltailor lol. No need for sarcasm. Do some actual research and you will know for a fact that back then the Chen bodyguard work wasn’t really full of dangers and perils. And please - life expectancy of “30”? It was already end of Ming dynasty and even before that many of the Chen villagers lived way past 70.
This is Chen Style Taiji. I watched the whole show years ago. Full Contact Fighting is practiced in Chen Village, strikes, kicks, throws are all legal on the Lei Tai!
oh dude - this event is notorious! Supposedly Chen taiji fighters but a team of sanda fighters was recruited to rep Chen village instead. They're sport sanda guys dressed up - that's it. I don't think anyone from Chen village fought in this.
What was this event called, btw?
@@FightCommentary I don't know Jerry - sorry. I think the event itself is about 7-8 years old. I remember the buzz in taiji circles back then (most people thinking the Chen peeps would get killed) then we saw the fights and everyone went "Hmmm...". Some suggestion that the karate guys weren't even real karate guys but I think that's jus speculation. Sorry I can't tell you more.
@@jamestan4165 There were quite a few of these events back then. I don’t think they hired sanda fighters, but I remember that their fighters cross-trained in sanda.
Most of the Chen village school members came from other sports styles before learning Taiji. They expressly go to Taiji to improve their gongfu and shuai. Taiji is a form of gongfu and is not a sport, so when they train for a sport it looks like the sport, because that's the rule set. Kinda how wrestlers who enter MMA will do some striking, not because striking belongs to wrestling. I know it's curious genius but that's how it works
I think the first karateka was Kyokushin, the second was Enshin and the third was Seidokan. Seido has the best takedowns of all the Kyokushin offshoots - it’s basically Kyokushin + Judo. Kyokushin used to allow takedowns in the 60s but doesn’t anymore which is why the other guys were getting ragdolled.
I believe the kung fu guys are pure tai chi since they didn’t punch at all, except the third guy who panicked during the body shot exchange. The Chen tai chi approach is honestly brilliant. They use side kicks and spin kicks to bait people into clinching then just throw them. Works great against people you can outwrestle. Since the third karate guy’s grappling was better, however, you can see tai chi guy panic and resort to trading body shots. He managed to win presumably by push kicking seidokan guy off the lei tai, but it was clear it wasn’t going well for him.
Title says Kyokushin, Enshin, but is the second Enshin, or Isshin? Enshin is also a full-contact karate style which branched off of Kyokushin, but is more permissive of throws and takedowns in its ruleset. Isshin is a traditional (sort of) style which doesn't usually take part in full-contact competition.
The Tai Chi guys presumably train full contact, but if they have backgrounds in tai chi, I think it's fair to call them tai chi guys. After all, sanda is basically a fighting ruleset. And the point of traditional martial arts training isn't to force practitioners to apply a specific curriculum of moves in combat, it's to build practitioners' abilities which they can apply to combat. When successful muay thai fighters start using moves which aren't traditional in muay thai, nobody feels the need to argue that they're not doing muay thai anymore.
Facts
To be fair these guys are also Sanda trained, but they did use Tai chi to some degree in these matches.
no just no
Some thoughts on the whole "what is their real background" q on the taichi side.
Every gym has a different style that comes from all the active students exchanging their individual styles and strategies.
My sanshou gym was extremely kickboxing centric, so while we recognized more throws and kick catching opportunities than the average MT person, we probably didn't throw as many legal (in MT) throws as we could have.
1) so there should be a gym that has a sanshou style that looks exactly like that, easier to rebrand as taichi.
2) the split loose guard (one forearm up by the head, one out in front) is common in many kung fu styles, so it's not remarkable that you see it here, no matter what the fighters' real base is.
3) having only trained in my gym's style of sanshou, I could easily put on a more kungfu-looking style if I were told to, even against decent opposition. Fighters have to be adaptable and help their teammates prepare for different opponents, so you have to present different styles and habits anyways.
4) a kyokushin ruleset helps with the above. If I'm only worried about kicks to the head and not punches, I'm naturally going to be more confident with a loose guard. Sanshou guards tend to be low anyways to help with catching low kicks, but now you don't even have to worry about head punches. So that just helps you play into a more flowery style.
Another tactic that came out cuz of this ruleset is the variant off of a straight sidekick into the corkscrew/crescent kick. Instead of maximizing reach, you're bearing down with your front leg on top of their guard, trying to get their hands even lower to kick over them. Bonus if you outreach them like some of the matchups here and can land that corkscrew to the head.
It's Chenshi taijiquan (from Chenjiagou) Wan Xian camp. His son is a coach .
I have been doing tai chi for about four years, that sweep that he did in the first match looks a lot like a Tai Chi technique that I was taught. It comes from the second part of single whip; specifically the turning part. As far as those kicks go, in the style I was taught, we have a front kick, front/side kick, and some crescent kicks. Typically you’re supposed to use them at a close range situation. I was taught to put most of the work in my hip. That way I could conceal the telegraph of the kick, and it kind of shows in his performance, that he probably does have some real Tai Chi his background. I would not be surprised if he is more of a sanda guy, because I was told to understand long range striking because tai chi is more of a grappling martial art like judo. I do like how he’s grabbing the gi. That is something that I was taught to do so I could strike them and apply postures like “an” which he uses perfectly here. Again, this is just my opinion. This does not confirm that he is 100% a Tai Chi guy. But it is really cool to see some Tai Chi in the ring that works.🙌
Are these two guys even in the same weight class?
Martial fights not based on weight , just belt , real fights do not last 3 minutes , someone is ether damaged/injured or knocked out quickly ... these type of fights usually soneone is medically care asap , these fights are no spar no jokes
@@fcguam3939 If it's competitive, there had to be a weight class.
Weight class doesn't matter,ask Bruce Lee this
@@gradyhernandez4699 🤦🤦🤦🤦 it does. Exhibitions don't count.
@@gradyhernandez4699okay then let's put Mike Tyson against a banana weight
New to the channel, love the content so far man. Chill, laid-back commentary that I can watch while eating lunch. I started MMA a year ago but it's a pretty big transition from TKD and it's very humbling. Love seeing the variety you present in your content.
Welcome aboard! When you have content, let me know! Would love to feature you!
@@FightCommentary will do brother, keep up the good stuff!
That second guys first sweep was defo legit tai chi technique
I never seen a tai chi artist fight like that before. It's a good match thought.
Yo that Tai Chi guy!
Chen style Taiji is known to be more aggressive than Yang style, which is the most popular style and the one that many elders do in the parks. Chen style is the oldest style of Taiji from what I learned
That's half right, yes, it is much more martial than yang, I ended up abandoning yang for the chen style, but the oldest is the wudang style, which becomes extremely martial too
The second guy seems like legit tai chi to me. he has the arm movements and low stance, and he throws tai chi kicks. Tai chi favors long side kicks, kicks to supporting leg, crescent and axe kicks to bent over targets. Also, the way he throws his kicks, with looseness at the hip socket, kind of just swinging the leg out there, and not having much, if any bend or tension at the knee, thats very tai chi.
Edit to add: the trips and sweeps are thai chi stuff. tai chi loves to sweep people onto their tailbone. they also like to grab the leg and stretch out the opponents groin to make them fall. another tai chi esque thing, is how they bring their kicking legs back towards their body instead of setting it straight down after a kick, whenever theyre able. especially with high kicks like axe and crescent.
Congratulations, you proved to be very insightful, if you want, I can send you videos of his original training sessions to prove your thesis
thanks for your kind words. I would like to see these videos, if you dont mind.@@contaparajogar1666
Im seeing some elements of kenpo karate. So many arts are so similar. I think the biggest differences here are the skill levels, more than the styles.
Chen is ostensibly the most martial of the Taiji styles. However, I wouldn't be surprised if he cross-trains significantly in Sanda (at least for kicking). But Sanda guys also typically throw a lot of lead hooks and power jabs, which we're not seeing in this case. A lot of Kung Fu schools (at least here in the States) alternate days when they forms vs sparring vs Sanda sparring. Also, Enshin is a Kyokushin (and Ashihara) offshoot which spars just as hard but actually emphasizes side-stepping/circling out and throwing from the opponent's weak-side, so I'm a bit surprised these guys haven't done any of that (if it's not totally rigged).
Enshin karate is a honorable style , it’s not rigged
@@oldschoolkarate-5owho's to say these guys really were representatives of enshin tho?
@neokimchi 🤔🙏🏽
@@oldschoolkarate-5oIt's just tai chi, you really noticed something unique about Sanda, it's similar to kickboxing, but with aggressive falling techniques, tai chi is more similar to shaolin, you showed very insightful in understanding the concepts, and yes, it's tai chi and the training of kick is tai chi there are also videos of him training where they train is the village chen where you only have 1 fighting style which is the traditional tai chi which is what we can see in the video
@@neokimchiWell, from the moment you enter a fight with the only style, you are representing it even if you are an amateur or not and we can search for their schools that appear on the back of the kimonos
Tai chi more like tai champion
I was doing kyokushin many years ago. One of my friends introduced me to one of his friends for a friendly sparing match . He did Tai Chi Chan style. Maybe it was Chen? Anyway, i didn't take him seriously at the start, but, oh boy, did he give me a hiding. Also, he was really lanky, but he produced so much power. Apparently, it's one of the oldest most complete fighting styles, so?
Do you have footage?
Yes, it's not that old, it was created in the 19th century if I'm not mistaken, but tai chi, especially the Chen style, proves to be extremely effective in fights due to the odds of fighting him and his stature as well.
The second guy has the stance and the foundation is solid. he also adds the extra push after the take down almost spitefully 3:53, 4:15, 4:49 & 5:17 chen style follow thru.
Tai chi, sanda, karate, kyokushin, etc. are all tools that won't autofight for you. If you are getting beat up in real time you don't think about labels but react as you trained, whether in one or multiple arts.
Very good fights , A+ excellent
My guess is Wu style with some Sanda training in the mix. EDIT OK so Chen. My Wu call was based on the first guys sweeps which were very much like Wu sweeps (9 Palace steps)
Love your videos man
Nowadays people associate TaiChi with the slow moving forms and health benefits but TaiChi is supposed to be martial also and involve training Striking -Punching and Kicking / Grappling - in Tai Chi Push hands, sweeps and throws and submissions in qin na / Training in Push Hands grappling is actually pretty useful for defense in a cage fight ------The slow forms can also be performed speeded up as each transition actually denotes defending or attacking in a fighting situation
The first and third karate fighters where from Chakuriki dojo, which was founded by the Dutch shihan Thom Harinck. Back in the day Shihan Harinck mixed different martial arts to create Chakuriki, so I guess this is a hybrid karate.
The second karate fighter was clearly Enshin.
Second guy definitely looks more Tai Chi, at least he incorporates throws that look like it. I don’t know enough about Chen style, but I know they do a lot more striking and are more likely to test their art in sparring and tournaments.
I’ve never seen a sacrifice throw in Tai Chi but who knows.
You mentioned muay boran briefly, and I honestly wouldn't be against seeing some muay boran fights
Second guy was class! Fast! Powerful ... incredible
I wanna see qing gong versus judo or kyokushin. One person would be floating in the air the whole time and one person would be on the ground
I really don’t think it was tai chi. It had to have been Sanda, but wearing the tai chi garbs to better differentiate maybe (or just represent China better, idk)
It's tai chi sanda has extremely more aggressive takedowns, longer exchanges and hooks to the belly, we can't see that, just tai chi kicks and punches
Damn those are some nice sidekicks!
obviously just sanda vs karate
Have you ever trained tai chi? Who did you train with? where did you train? how was the training? what lineage? So don't worry if you don't know
this does not seem like tai chi, this just seems like sanda with more karate kicks than the kyokushin guy lol
Chen style trains Sanda for striking ant tuishou for grappling...
@@danielxtma so then it is just sanda with another name lol thats like saying you train mma with a base of muay thai and you mostly do muay thai stuff
@@smashonlamezif I have been doing karate for over 10 years and nothing else, and I decide to learn some BJJ for about 2 years so that I can join an MMA tournament. I join the tournament and win, does that make me an MMA guy or a Karate guy?
@@shankarsatheesan6846 Im pretty sure that's his point
@@shankarsatheesan6846 trick question. It depends what your style is more emphasized. For example if you do primailry karate and win that fight, you mma is karate background with some grabs take downs. If youre more integrated and have blended all the styles no one will question youre mma. But my point is for those who enter a competition but rely soley on their own style. Like a tkd who enters muay thai (with some muay thai components) if he fights using mostly a TKD system, most ppl will call it TKD.
So to your point, it depends how you fought your mma fight.
heres a real life example, connor mcrgregor boxed mayweather, does that make him a boxer?? even if he had won, i dont think he would even argue that.
So it depends
there is definitely a lot of Tai Chi flare here. Not necessarily in the techniques themselves, but the way they are executed strongly suggests some influence.
the second karate guy seemed to be a first dan looking at his belt, so like you said, a fresh black belt. this *may have* been like his "kumite" test, in lieu of doing an actual 5 or 10 or whatever man kumite.
as far as the third karate guy, he seems to have a couple stripes. Also, he has colored hair. In japan thats pretty uncommon, and usually a sign that a guy is gonna be tough. Its a cultural thing. the fact that he would refuse to conform, especially with that specific, light brownish orange hair color, means he embraces nonconformity and is willing to "stand on that shit", as it were. This, per my native born Japanese teacher. its very apparent in japanese media too, if you pay attention.
I like your commentary. Yeyishin kaikan (英心会館) is an Ashihara Karate offshoot dojo.
Isn't this the tournament where Frank Dux won?
Brick not hit back!
Isshinryu, is the style you expected to see, sudden, intense, acurate,powerful strikes, several strikes ending in a take down, and the one unable to continue fighting. . Isshinryu karat
Too bad PWFG or UWIFi isn't around anymore, because that was some excellent WORK by both
Who won tai chi or karate? Which is more effective
In the full original video, after both know the academies and concepts, karate proves to be superior due to long-term adaptation, but tai chi proves to be superior in the beginning because apparently tai chi kyokushin does not use falling techniques, something that tai chi knows best
The throw at 0:07 exists in sanshou, but only with underhooks instead of gripping the jacket. IME, Muay Thai guys who’re good in the clinch are more skilled at that particular throw, as it’s up close and not a range that any sanshou person spends a lot of time finessing (vs kick catches and more dynamic entry throws)
they are sparring on concrete or something and they are doing takedowns and attempts at rolling thunder 😅 BADASS
the second karate guy doesn't even know how to fall properly..
out of the blue, some of the best MA stuff I've ever seen online!
Definitely Shotokan karate for match 3
Also a great guess.
What ever happened to similar weight class bouts ?
All are essential in self defense 💪🦵🥊🥋⚓🥷
Tai Chi guy going in for a hug
Why they don't include the great Master Maruchan Chan Chan? 🤔
I can see many techniques in taichi that would work against all those kicks but none are being used!?????? Wait the tall guy is taichi??? I’m so confused now.
Tai Chi isn’t an actual martial art. It’s basically a way to train your body and mind. It’s a great way to exercise and improving your stance and body control.
Have you ever trained tai chi? Who did you train with? linked to who? so I think you don't know what Chen style tai chi is talking about, the "original" tai chi (in fact the original is from Wudang but it can also be considered Chen) it emphasizes the fight and they are from the Chen village because who Have you ever trained there or know someone, you know what it's like and I know a practitioner there, not just any one, I know a taijiquan master from that village
@@contaparajogar1666 Sure buddy. This one village has the true and only effective style. Ask them to bring forth their fighters. We’re waiting to be enlightened.
soft style tai chi vs hard fast style karate ... tai chi in competitive sport ???
The “tornado fall” is just a 540 roundhouse kick
Why is the referee dressed like Boss Hogg?
Debates are good for engagement.
I train in sanda and the tai chi guy is not even a tai chi practitioner they are sanda fighters i notice it when they clinch the other guy use uppercut on the karate guy which is common in sanda if they end up in clinch we alwats use uppercuts
It has nothing to do with sanda friend, I trained both and I notice the difference, you are not the only ones to use uppercuts and don't forget that taijiquan came before sanda and sanda took techniques from all 500 martial arts in China
Maybe some Taiji influence but more likely Sanda... 2nd guy seemed to have better coordination etc but eh. Taiji has kicks but they aren't emphasized as much as we see in this video...
yes and sanda have concepts of various martial arts and sanda is the same thing as sanshou is a term for Chinese Kickboxing and both have the same or similar techniques but we can see the clear difference through the training
Would you consider commenting about Muay Boran fights?
Absolutely. Please send me some!
Tai Chi guy has a sweet outfit tbh.
in the first fight, tai-chi guy was clearly using the sub category of tai-chi known as kick-chi
Last style looks like Goju. Would have been much more interesting in a cage.
All the Karate guys are losing??? Very strange!! Those fights are fixed for sure!
in fact, in the original there are several and several rounds where karate overcomes loses, tai chi wins and loses and both know each other's martial art and know how they fight
That's not Tai chi, He definitely fights like SANDA mixed with TAE KWON DO style.
I would assume that that style is Wushu because it looks like a mix of different styles
Exactly
They both don't know what they're talking about, if they know so much, I want them to talk about how each style trains, so let's see if the know-it-alls really know
Which one is taichi?
No pivots or side steps or flow what so ever but good fights though 👍
His Tai Chi called Seven Foot Four.
This looks more Wushu than Tai Chi, Sanda maybe. It’s true that the Chen style is much more martial than the other stiles, but I didn’t see any Tai Chi techniques (I practiced Chen style for a decade or so.) Obviously schools are nowadays going beyond the traditional techniques and training other stuff.
Makes no sense at all.
this further supports my hypothesis that pure traditional kung fu only works against smaller opponents. (even though this ain't traditional by the look of it)
There is combat taichi as well, they're not all dancing.
In fact, to be quite honest, the 3 that I know have combat, the tai chi style, the chen wudang style, the yang style, the chen style being one of the most effective and complete, the wudang style being extremely effective as well and having extremely blunt blows, while the yang style is the least effective, apparently which I trained and from the concepts I know, it can be trained in more effective ways, but I still recommend the Chen style, I ended up abandoning Tai Chi Yang for Chen for martiality and Wudang, I recommend it, but it is extremely difficult to find
Originally, Taiji was created with multiple arts.
What the heck is with the chest shields they're wearing??? No wonder they're not throwing hands, they're so scared of breaking a knuckle on hard plastic that all they could DO was kick!
Does anyone have the full video.
yes, 3 videos that divided the event but there were 4 original ones where 1 showed the victory of karate
@@contaparajogar1666 cool what's the video called.
@@jackmcglion8337 Chen Tai Chi vs Karate Combat
Tai Chi shirt must be Tai chi. 😊
The smaller guy is getting kicked to bits
Audience lookin like stock footage from the People's Revolution.
That's Xanda. Not TaiChi. 😊
It's tai chi, not sanda, the techniques used are very different. I say this because I've trained both and have you trained any of them? to talk such nonsense?
Title should properly be called " tsu chi/ northern kungfu or tae kwon do vs karate. From previous matches the chinese learned " lets get some tall guys with long reach because these karate guys are getting inside and punching the body".This competition used to also have the weapons sparring on top of the platform. Wushu was dominating it.
and tai chi not taekwondo Taekwondo don't fall for the love of god don't say what you don't know
@@contaparajogar1666 What I meant was tai chi / northern kungfu vs.karate or tai chi/tae Kwon do vs.karate..
@@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe tai chi is an internal art not an external one it doesn't have that north or south or tae kwon I repeat please don't say what you don't know for love
@@contaparajogar1666 II repeat. In my paragraph I mentioned four different martial styles .
1) tai chi
2) tae Kwon do
3) Northern Shaolin kungfu ( my style)
4)karate
For example : Somebody could've learned both tai chi and karate and used it in fighting. Therefore he is tai chi/ karate. I know they are all separate disciplines. Get it?
@@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe This event does not allow mixed styles MMA as it is a championship of traditional martial arts schools it is only tai chi what they do as they were trained by a master descendant of Chenjiagou Villager of the Chen family understood and for those who have a good understanding of Tai Chi half technique enough
Tai chi guy is throwing tkd style kicks
It's called chen style of taijiquan
Every one of those kicks can be found in each style of Tai Chi.
yes and no yes some can but most of them don't have so many kicks the ones we can find the most kicks are in the wudang and chen styles apart from these the others have almost no kick variations
@contaparajogar1666 those kicks are definitely in Yang style and the comments below state the side kick is in chen style
@@cagemachine2492 no kicks are typical of the chen style, especially those that can be seen training in the chen village
@@contaparajogar1666 scroll one comment down lol
Tai chi is more practical than other Chinese martial arts.
In fact, any martial art that trains well is...
Second guy has higher level taichi than the first.
I want to.see ying n yang aura sign behind that guy.
He didn't like that knee to the thigh.
Notice how he tried to kick him in the mouth several times unsuccessfully.
😀😂🤣
Dude certainly had Taekwondo training.
It's not just tai chi
2:23 don't try that on an unsuspected sparring partner because it hurts surprisingly A LOT
BTW, are you in our Discord server? If so, I'll send you an invite ASAP.
@@FightCommentary i am not
A kyokushin guy not used to sparring???
Tf is he doing this whole time then
Yes, but frank exchanges where whoever hits the hardest and fastest wins and tai chi focuses on short exchanges and takedowns, things that are not the focus of kyokushin
The short guy is out classed
Tai Chi looks suspiciously like TaeKwondo lately....😅
That's definitely not tai chi
guy who has never trained tai chi and sees above all, do some research, please help a lot so as not to be ignorant lol
That looks like Tea Kwon do taichi.😅😂
yes ilario taekwondo has kicks and sweeps and punches and knees he doesn't even know how to joke properly strangely I trained taekwondo and my teacher said that my martial art doesn't have that many variations of kicks and I agreed strangely, right and we can see that they are always the same kicks that they use oops I forgot you don't know that lol
There is no tai chi, just dudes doing kickboxing with some judo
Bro, stay calm, please, now prove this to me so I can prove that there's nothing wrong with it and you're talking a lot of shit, my friend😊
tai chi came well before both fights and the difference is clear, such as elbows, knees, leg grabs, projections outside the gi, things that laymen like you won't understand or because they are stupid or ignorant will know
and if you know so much about tai chi, do me a favor now put it below when you see this comment how the training of each martial art works step by step how they train judo Kickboxing and taijiquan with facts and preferably videos to prove it, if not just silence shhhh
karate dudes getting bodied, i thought karate had impressive kicks?
I dont see any tai chi. Karatevs karate
Well, you've already trained, I trained and I can show you where they fit in tai chi
This Tai kwon chi
This show looks like propaganda. The whole thing was performed like a movie. The easy wins at the start. The cute kid cheering on. And the overacting evil villain at the end who gives our hero a genuine threat. They even cast all the Karate guys as smaller dudes to make Japan look inferior in every way.
The only difference is that instead of a single hero character, the style is the hero because it represents the state. You're not just cheering one man, you're cheering for China itself.
I could be overthinkong this, and really it was just rigged fights with an obvious size disparity, but it seems to play out that way.
PS: I was thinking the same when you said Sanda, because it looks it.
i was going to say chen just because it seems like chen guys are the only ones sparring
You are right, it is the Chen style as it is the most martial along with Wudang and there are many more practitioners and honest recordings
@@contaparajogar1666 i lived at wudang for 4 months and didnt see a single person spar. maybe its changed since then
@@hanu9830 What do you mean, you lived in Wudang and didn't see any training when it's the birthplace of kung fu, it doesn't make sense, here's proof
@@hanu9830 th-cam.com/video/OQgDGDSQJ1Q/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Qk4PaIC-16lYICHY
@@contaparajogar1666 i didnt say nobody was training
There is no Taiji here
yes it is tai chi could you prove your thesis in facts?
Is this propaganda for the country Tai Chi is from, against the country karate is from?