The Philosophy of Elden Ring
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video I discuss many of the various aspects of Elden Ring's lore and themes to present a coherent philosophy for the game. This video took a while to make and I really did give it a lot of thought. I really hope that you all enjoy it and that you can gleam some personal insight from my work. If you have any thoughts disagreements or suggestions, please leave them in the comments below. I love to hear all feedback positive and negative. Finally, if you would like to see more elden ring content let me know.
Messmer Reddit post link: / dlc_spoilers_theory_ab...
What do you mean Marika cheated on Godfrey to birth Mohg and Morgott? Godfrey is definitely Mohg and Morgotts father. If they were from the union of Marika and Radagon like messmer Malenia Melina and Miquella, they’d have a butterfly to represent them like the rest of the children
Hey! Sorry to hear that you didn't care for my read on Marika's family tree. I'm aware of the butterfly theory, and while I like the connections it draws to miquella, melania, I think that the butteflies remain only an interesting link to three of Marika's children (nascent = Miquella, rot = melania, and smoldering = messmer). There wasn't quite enough there for me to conclusively connect butterflies to necessarily being confirmed Marika x Radagon children. There are only three butterflies, while there are four children we know of including Melina, and I think it's odd to fit two children into one butterfly category.
My analysis is operating under the assumption that Marika x Radagon pairings cause ironic and undesired curses within the children, making Morgott and Mohg a curse to represent tie Marika to her past with the hornsent. All this said my reading on the game is still somewhat speculative, but I hope you keep an open mind to it and can see some value.
Thanks for leaving a comment! Bringing in the buttefly theory definitely helps develop the discussion.
@@ordinaryunits4341 I see your point. But if I may make a comment regarding the butterflies.
Miquella - nascent / Messmer - Black pyrefly
Malenia - Aeonian / Melina aka Kindling Maiden is actually the smoldering butterfly.
I also see your point regarding the curses being only upon children of Marika and Radagon and why you’d come to the conclusion that Mohg and Morgott are under that category.
But unlike curses Malenia Miquella Messmer and Melina, Mohg and Morgotts curse is something that happens in the lands between. Like we see many Omens and Leyndell even implemented the “sewer law” because of how often it happened and we see many omens when we go to the sewers and even roaming the lands between. To add to that, they’ve become so common that there’s hired “Omen Killers” like Rollo. While the 4 children of Marika and Radagon curses are unique to them. I think the omen curse wasn’t strictly laid on her children but throughout all her denizens in the lands between Making it so that anywhere she looks, she can’t escape her past.
@@ordinaryunits4341 Also a random bit of lore, I think Marika x Radagon happened before Godfrey and before they (M&R)got married making Messmer and Melina bastard children since messmer is the older brother of Radahn and Radahn is the older brother of Miquella. Then she went to marry Godfrey and Radagon to Renalla and after that they “officially” got married and birthed the twins making Radagon the 2nd Elden Lord.
The “illegal” or unmarried union of Marika and Radagon could have something to do with the seduction and betrayal mentioned in the trailer. I have no idea though
And just to clarify! It’s not that I didn’t care for your interpretation, on the contrary I enjoyed and liked your video
@@certifiedcib7958 Of course! I'm glad you corrected me on the butterflies, I was unaware that they added black pyreflies in the dlc. So that definitley creates a far better through line for your interpretation.
I see, it's definitely a cool interpretation that the omen in the lands between are all cursed from the hornsent getting revenge on Marika for betraying them in her ascension to godhood. The way I view it is that becomnig hornsent or omen is a fact of being born, hence the title 'misbegotten'. And that the hornsent cursed her progeny to not be exempt from this reality of life. Honestly I could see it going either way as far as our interpretations go, but you've definitely left me a lot to think about, so thank you!
If you have any further disagreements or thoughts let me know and I'd be happy to keep discussing them more!
@@certifiedcib7958 I'm glad that you did! And hopefully I didn't come off as too defensive.
I think I might also be convinced of that ordering! Honestly I viewed Messmer and Melina as a sort of floating group of children. Messmer being definitely on the older end of marika's children. Melina I just have no clue lol.
The specificities of the seduction and the betrayal is super interesting isn't it? I wonder if someone will ever crack what the trailer was referring to.
Morgott is explicitly stated by his great rune to be of the golden lineage, which exclusively refers to the decendants of Godfrey and Markia's union
Ouch. No idea how I missed that, that was literally the great rune I used all the time😅. It looks like my interpretation of morgott and mohg's parentage is pretty unlikely.
Though improbable, it's still possible to read the description "born of the golden lineage" to be a metaphor referring to how he came to represent the best of the golden lineage as godfrey and godwyn the golden did, but again, the literal reading is more likely to be the intention of miyazaki.
Thank for bringing that to my attention!
@@ordinaryunits4341 I think it's also important to keep in mind that in Elden Ring, it is very explicitly clear that there's a lot of unreliable narration going on (aside from the actual narrator at the start of the game). A lot of the information that is given by Marika and Golden Order folks is highly suspect. I wouldn't put it past Marika to claim them to be of the golden lineage in order to disguise her self-cest. There's another youtuber, can't remember who it was off the top of my head, but they went into how Marika seems to like to have clusters of 3 kids with one being a kind of self-insert each time, where she divested parts of herself to create offshoots instead of children. That theory doesn't tie in here, except that it could be that she did have her own children here, but because Godfrey was her Elden Lord at the time, she had to pretend they were his.
The transition at 2:10 is why I'm subscribed now
Thank you! Glad you liked it
I really appreciate how you acknowledge that Elden Ring is a piece of art rather than an actual, real story that occurred and makes complete sense (which it DEFINITELY is not). So many of the ‘lore-tubers’ treat it like an actual historical chronicle when there’s so much more to be gained from examining it from a symbolic/thematic point of view.
‘Lore-hunting’ is fun and all but I think a lot of people miss the point when they get too caught up in it, so I greatly appreciate this video.
Couldn't agree more! I think people are generally biased towards a literal historical reading because it's generally the most approachable way to understand a story. But once the artistic reading clicks it affords so much more depth to the world and narrative.
Thank you for leaving your comment! It means a lot
great vid man! with knowledge like this you should try to make a game of your own!
Great video man, love these in the background as I do stuff
I do the same thing with other people's videos lmao
Wow! This is awesome! Love your content bro. Can’t wait for the next one 👍🏼
Yesss I’ve been writing a script but I am not a TH-camr lol I can’t believe this video is so underrated man, the Three Metamorphoses jumped out at me so hard after finishing the DLC. Just to add, we can further reinforce the cyclical nature of Elden Ring when we think of Placidusax as the previous “Thou Shalt” that Godfrey, the first lion, had to conquer. Another point to be made about Miquella, I think the primary reason his age of compassion couldn’t come to fruition outside of him clearly being manipulative is that his concept of compassion is fundamentally denial of life, something that Nietzsche himself spoke heavily against. A world full of compassion and nothing bad would be Heaven which Nietzsche doesn’t believe to exist, and which is why he warns against having such an ideal as you ultimately deny what you know you have around you for a hope in a world that has never existed (to our knowledge). Miquella’s shedding of St. Trina further reinforces this as not only is he shedding his love, he’s doing the same thing his mother did and denying death (I’m basing this on the introduction of eternal sleep in the DLC and the gloam color in game being a bit of a washed out violet). Either way man amazing vid and I got notis on looking forward to more!
I'm glad to hear that you really resonate with my video! Interesting point about placidusax. Now that I think about it the misbegotten can be found in Farum Azula, drawing a connection between the hornsent/crucible and the dragon lord.
Also your points on Miquella are a great extension of the Nietzschean analysis my video ran with! I honestly wanted to go into more depth with miquella and a reading of the value system of compassion in line with the Genealogy of Morals, but I was worried the video would become way too long.
I'm glad that you'll be sticking around for more, hopefully you'll like the videos I have coming up. Thanks for leaving a comment too! It really helps push the vid in the aglorithm.
@@ordinaryunits4341 reply again so hopefully the TH-cam lords push you lmao, but 100% I’m here for the part 2 of this whenever you get to it man, great content
Regarding the negative qualities of an Age of Compassion, it is conflict and challenge that force an individual and institutions to evolve and grow. Once such an individual or institution reaches a state of primacy where they can no longer be effectively challenged, the motivation to continue evolving is gone and devolution and degeneracy set in. In a world where individual free will is removed in favor of a conflict-free world, the Age would rapidly collapse as people would lose the motivation to simply exist much less thrive. If you've seen the film "Serenity", (spoilers) this is the state of the world Miranda, where the Alliance used chemical modification to create an obedient population which when deprived of the flame of ambition, as Morgott would say, they simply sat down and died...save from a few who went full Frenzied Flame as a result.
Great video man. I'd super appreciate more elden ring videos in the future!
Thank you so much! In that case I'll be sure to make more
The move from FE3H to Elden Ring isn't so crazy tbh. We're taking solace in these dark times 🫡
Anyway I love Elden Ring's story, it somehow feels the most forthcoming about its character motivations and themes than any FromSoft souls game, even more than Sekiro, maybe due in part to George Martin's influence. I think the flow of so many of its quest lines and scenes are genuinely emotional in the moment and not just when you watch a lore video about them afterwards! No shade to the other games, they're great too. Good work as usual :)
Hey, glad to see that you stuck around! Yeah Elden Ring has been my focus lately since engage was a bit barren story and characerization wise lol. I definitely agree, they nailed the mythological feel to this game where certain narratives, sentiments, and morals are clear even if the specifics aren't. From Software has been continually improving on their worldbuilding/story game for a while now.
Thanks for leaving a comment and it's great to hear from you again!
Mohg and Morgott are Marika and Godfrey's children tho
In the opening cutscene for the Godfrey fight, he is holding the body of Morgott, his son
He says something along the lines of 'its been a long time'
Godfrey definitely cares for morgott, but I think godfrey would care in the case that morgott is his confirmed son and the alternative where godfrey is unaware that morgott isn't.
Couple of points a disagree with.
1. Morgott and Mohg being Radagon's children. I don't believe this is the case. We know Godfrey is strongly associated with the Crucible, with his Crucible Knights and Beast Regent both being strong signifiers of the Crucible. Additionally we know that Godfrey cared for Morgott as a father. Also, Messmer, Melina, Malenia, and Miquella all have associated butterflies whilst the Omen twins do not. Morgott and Mohg instead likely didn't have "god" affixed to their name because they were secreted away and shunned, not to be part of the golden lineage.
As for their curse, we know that the Hornsent Grandam speaks of the hornsent sending a curse unto Marika's children. This is more than likely the Omen Curse based on the Omen's similarity to the hornsent. Marika may even have discarded Godfrey for this very reason, for fear that his connection to the crucible allows this curse to take root. As we know Marika and Godfrey were in a union at the same time as Radagon and Rennala, I would instead suggest that Mohg and Morgott were actuall born after Rennala's children. Their births are probably the strongest motivator for Marika to commit a crusade against the Hornsent, and we know that the crusade was after Rennala's children were born as Messmer acted as an older brother to Radahn. This also allows Godfrey to still love Morgott as is demonstrated in game, whilst leaving before Marika sends them to the sewers (something he likely wouldn't have allowed if he had stayed).
2. I also disagree with the order of the children. I'm of the opinion that Messmer is the firstborn. This is denoted by the fact he is aware of his mother's past in the Shaman Village and his possessing of great power despite not possessing a great rune. He's also probably a product of the union of Marika and Radagon, however the earliest union we know of in game is Godfreys, so he was more than likely a product of a secret union that predates even that (as we know that he is at least older than Radahn, and therefore couldn't be Miquella and Malenias siblings). We also know that Radagon was in a union with Rennala at the same time as Marika and Godfrey's union, so I find it hard to believe he was conceived during this period.
Melina being his direct younger sister and second eldest child overall also makes the most sense. She was also a product of the union between Marika and Radagon (butterfly) and also knows the Minor Erdtree incantation, which was a secret Marika left in the Shaman village, which predates her Golden Order. Melina also likely is the Gloam Eyed Queen based on the frenzied flame ending, which also gives her a stronger connection to be Messmer's closest sibling as they both have their own flame (Black Flame and Messmer's flame) and connection to snakes (Messmer's abyssal serpent and the Gloam Eyed Queen's apostle children).
First off, thanks for leaving such a thoughtful comment! You made some great points Morgott and Mohg's parentage. Godfrey's connection to the crucible is undeniable, in both his order of knights and his personal protection and the connection to the butterflies is super compelling too, as I discussed with certifiedcib. As I said in the intro, I think the game is pretty mythological and I'm not sure we'll ever have the specifics totally confirmed.
To make the case for my interpretation, it is possible that marika unjustly blamed Godfrey for his connection with the crucbile causing the curse of Morgott and Mohg. As he didn't have any of the hornsents features and merely channeled the crucible's energy. My analysis on the the demigod's genealogy is also somewhat of metacontextual relying on the letter association, so you could definitely claim that to be unimportant if it doesn't convince you. I also find your take that Marika started he crusade against the shadowlands in retaliation for morgott and mohg. I found it to be latent resentment at her awful treatment and a profound desire to completely bury her past before the golden order.
There's one thing I'm still somewhat unsure of and that is the connection of the two outer gods that are directly related to two of Marika's children (goddess of rot = melania) (Messmer = the fell God). Do you think that their curses were imparted on them by these outer gods or that they were merely an innevitable curse to tear away at Marika's imperfect order?
Finally your analysis of the order of births is definitley compelling! I feel lke messmer and melina are a float group for me and could reasonably have born anytime, but their knowledge and lack of possessing a great rune are interesting points in your favor!
A lot of the nitty gritty details are obscured by the mythological presentation of the game, but it's fun to try and get a close read on what really happened. Thank you for leaving your thoughtful comment it meant a lot!
@@ordinaryunits4341 Thanks so much for responding!
The reason I pit Messmer's crusade on the Hornsent in part in response to the Omen curse is because of how far down the timeline it falls. With the Shaman Village massacre occurring before the Golden Order, Marika not only ascended to godhood but also warred with the Fire Giants, warred with Liurnia, and warred with the Storm Lord prior to this crusade. The war with the dragons may have also occurred prior to it, however I don't believe that has any bearing on the timeline other than it occurred whilst Godwyn was alive. Regardless, it just seems like too long a time for Marika to seemingly randomly decide on initiating the crusade.
As for the curses of Radagon's and Marika's children, there is still plenty that's up in the air. Malenia's birth rotted curse is obviously meant to act as an opposite to Miquella, who was born cursed with eternal nascence. Miquella himself is not an envoy for an Outer God, but his eternal nascence curses him with great potential that will forever be unfulfilled (unable to cure Malenia, unable to fully grow his Haligtree, unable to cure Godwyn, unable to bring about his age of compassion, etc.).
As I'm positing that Messmer was born as a member of a separate generation from Malenia and Miquella, I believe his curse is separate from theirs. Whatever curse Messmer has, I believe both he and Melina share it in similar ways. I already established that if Melina is the gloam eyed queen, then she also has her own connection to serpents and flame. Both demigods act as kindling in the game as well, and whilst Messmer sheds his own skin in game, the Gloam Eyed Queen shed the skin of others through skinning rituals. They also both possess seals on their eyes that reveal the truth of their nature when broken. We also find a noble at the church of Eiglay guarding a giant snake skin and an Apostle at windmill village, which itself bears many similarities to Shaman village (eg., the whole population being women).
I don't believe Messmer is an empyrean as it is never mentioned in game, Ranni specifically does not mention him in her list of empyreans, and all the empyreans confirmed in game have female qualities or characteristics. However we know Gloam Eyed Queen was an empyrean, which if it is Melina could make her a potential vessel for the Fell God. If Melina was burned prior to the Golden Order as well, it would explain why no one knows of her as a Demigod and why she is not mentioned in Ranni's list of empyreans.
Not to say I 100% believe that Melina/The Gloam Eyed Queen was indeed currently a vessel for any outer god, it's just speculation to wonder as to the nature of her and Messmer's curses.
@@jamesbell1186
Of course! Like I said in the video, creating dicussions like this is my favorite part of making videos.
Love your interpretation of the timeline and events. I also like to think that the crusade was a bit later on in the chronology of marika's reign because of messmer's relationship with other demigods, but also far enough back to have nobody in the lands between refer to him or his crusade in any significant way. In my interpretation, Marika's motivation for starting the crusade being to bury her past also includes the functional banishment of messmer. And to me this is key. Marika fears the flame of ruin wants to remove messmer from the lands between to keep his flame far away from her and sends him on a ceaseless crusade against the people who previously trangressed her. For all purposes it seems that the lands of shadow don't have tangible bearing on the lands between and the hornsent wouldn't be able to actively harm the golden order. In my view her crusade is a farce motivated by shame, fear, and resentment.
The theory of Melina being the gloam eyed queen is crazy cool too! That would create and interesting connection and distinction between her and messmer's flame and would implement a component of the lore that is currently unexplored. (Maybe there will be a dlc with that and godwyn, but I don't think the game needs it.)
Also I definitely agree with your statements on the empyreans, feminine qualities does seem to be a (the?) prerequisite and excludes other demigods. But I wonder about the veracity of that statement seeing as the selection of the empyrean comes from the fingers, who are inconsistent sources of knowledge.
As an aside, it's crazy to think that there were were so many events that a far removed from the start of the game. I wonder how many elden lordships and orders existed prior to the golden order.
Really well done! Looking forward to more ot these!
Criminally underrated analysis!
I'm pretty certain Godfrey was both Morgot's and Mohg's father. I can't think from the top of my head any items that specifically say that, but the relationship between Godfrey and Morgot is self evident with Morgot conjuring a golden copy of Godfrey to guard the Erdtree and Godfrey's short eulogy for Morgot.
Also, they aren't cursed, they're just displaying effects of Crucible, it's like saying ginger's are cursed.
Edit: Ah, I see this matter has already been discussed in the chat, don't mind me.
Not at all, you brought up some points that weren't mentioned by the previous conversations!
Also the omen being compared to gingers was awesome💀
Super insightful! Keep the videos coming!
19:50 this kinda looks like the place where you fight radagon
True, I never noticed that before! If I had to guess it's probably a stylistic choice to represent the cyclical nature of the journey to becoming elden lord
I love the Midra joke at the front. I am the dude that joke was made for and I definitely started skipping forward and then went back to laugh at that.
I'm glad that joke landed. Was looking for a way to make a joke out of the clip because I love midra's delivery of that line lmao
Do you think Radagon was always Marika? Or is it possible that he was a real person until he was summoned to Marika who perhaps killed him and recreated his image to have full control of the person she was going to marry? This would explain the mysterious change of heart Radagon had from being very much in love with Renalla to dumping her for Marika all of a sudden. Maybe Marika knew she had to wed someone but she couldnt/didnt want to find someone worthy enough.
It could be possible! For me, Radagon having been separate from marika opens a few cans of worms. For example, why not incorporate Godfrey instead of taking someone who has an established presence and is keeping the golden order's peace with the royal. Furthermore, if they were separate people and then incorporated later on, what does that imply about St.Trina? Did miquella incorporate her in much the same way and then cast her out?
But them being different people at the start does make Radagon's innexplicable change of heart more understandable. Thanks for leaving your thought provoking comment!
I’m a month late but return of the king 🎉
Why did you believe Morgott and Mohg came from Marika herself? Didn't Godfrey bore those children?
So my reading here goes against the butterfly theory, but in short I use metacontextual evidence to infer it and believe that narratively it makes for a more compelling situation. The children of Marika that have confirmed parentage within in game items all have the first letter of their name corresponding to their parentage. Pure Marika - Messmer, Melina, Miquella, Malenia, (Morgott, Mohg). Marika + Godfrey - Godwyn. Radagon + Rennala - Radahn, Rykard, Ranni.
The omen is a natural birth state that happens in the lands between and Godfrey clearly has affection for Morgott. But in my reading, I believe that the connection of their names and the fact of Marika's pure blooded children have curses matters more.
It also creates an interesting narrative where Marika's obsession with her own perfection and the perfection of her order causes her children to be saddled with curses she wanted to keep away from her order.
Some people are more convinced by the butterfly theory, but I'm more partial to the first name relation.
Keep it up.
Thanks! I will
Miyazaki said Elden Ring is about the ambition of Man
For sure! Which is why I thought the comparison to Nietzsche was so fitting, as he's basically the philosopher of ambition and creativity.
Around the 12th-13th minute, you mentioned Radagon leaving Rennala being the reason why Ranni opposed the Two Fingers and stole Destined Death to slay Godwyn, which then pushed Marika to shatter the Elden Ring in grief. I totally opposed this point of view.
Ranni wasn't alone in this conspiracy. She was supported by the Black Knives assassins, who are Numen women affiliated with Marika. And Maliketh's remembrance mentioned he was betrayed by Marika concerning the Rune of Death. It's very likely Marika gave support to Ranni so she can steal the Rune of Death from Maliketh so Ranni could pull off the conspiracy. Marika didn't shatter the Elden Ring out of grief about Godwyn. Melina gave us some of Marika's dialogue on the matter. Marika told her children to become lords or die. Marika wanted to explore the depths of the Golden Order since the days of blind belief were past. Marika sending Godfrey and his Tarnished out of the Lands Between was a way to secure them from the civil war that would come out of the Shattering and have a strong ally to claim her at the end. The Shattering wasn't the result of a grieving woman going crazy.
Ever since Marika ascended as a god, she had to live under the thumb of the Greater Will through its Elden Beast and the Two Fingers. The Order within the Golden Order is the influence of the Elden Beast reigning in Marika's decisions. The Lands Between is pretty much a protectorate which swore allegiance to a distant imperial overlord, the Greater Will, with a local leader, Marika, but under scrutiny by a particularly strong overseer loyal to the Greater Will, the Elden Beast. The Two Fingers, and their mother Metyr, serve as intermediaries between the overlord and the local leader.
When you take this political framework into account, the context of the alliance between Marika and Ranni becomes clearer. The Greater Will is a distant emperor who is too far to deal with the local situation, Marika is the one in charge locally in the name of the emperor and needs a degree of freedom to enact his will but is kept in check by some of his servants. The Elden Lord is akin to a general. Empyreans in this context are successors picked by the Two Fingers to replace the local leader, Marika. So they are a threat to Marika as they can replace her. But Ranni refused her fate as empyrean and the Two Fingers needed alternative empyreans instead of her. This is why Radagon, loyal to the Golden Order, would leave Rennala to go back to Marika. The Two Fingers would use Radagon both as a breeding stud to create more empyreans out of Marika, and as a check against her autonomy. This would lead to Miquella and Malenia. Even though it would appear Marika stole Ranni's father from her mother, leading Rennala to madness, Ranni and Marika would have a reason to create an alliance in opposition against the Two Fingers. Ranni refusing to be an empyrean would even be a sign Ranni wouldn't be a threat to Marika's rule.
What pushed Marika towards the Shattering however was likely the loss of communication between Metyr and the Greater Will, likely due to the Nox using the Fingerslayer Blade against Metyr. With the loss of contact with their overlord, Marika had to assume the full power of a sovereign state, but under the institutional framework of a vassal state. Much like the United States breaking away from the British in huge part because of the delay of communication between the two due to the Atlantic ocean making actual control from the mainland difficult, Marika had to handle independance within the Lands Between but under the restriction of the Elden Beast, through the Golden Order.
So no, the Shattering wasn't the crazy decision of a grieving woman. The Shattering might have been the only solution to give a future to the Lands Between, even though Marika would trigger a civil war that would slaughter much of her children.
Hey! Thanks for leaving the thoughtful comment.
The theory of marika being involved in the night of black knives is super intriguing and if it were true it would make her an even more mysterious figure, since it is clear that (to some extent) she wanted to create the golden order. Although I do think her betrayal of maliketh doesn't necessarily mean that she undertook the night of black knives. It could alternatively mean that Marika leading the tarnished to kill maliketh and unbind destined death through the guidance of grace was the great betrayal. At the very least maliketh doesn't seem to feel betrayed during your fight with him as he says he won't fail marika again.
However, I don't disagree that Marika came to resent her prison being bound as the goddess of the golden order. Although I don't view it as the elden beast controlling her or using her as a vassal, but rather she is bound by her position of being the goddess. St. Trina in the dlc says the miquella becomming a god would become his prison. Plus we do see marika essentially bound by the elden ring's top crescent. I think all of this is symbolic of how becoming a diety and ordering things, thusly binds you to that order and you construct your own prison. In this case the elden beast could be an incarnation of this binding order and instead of being her warden or that which makes her a vassal. Is the incarnation of the sad reality of order that traps marika.
All that said your interpretation could very well be what really happened! I just prefer mine because it is more in line with George RR Martin's narrative conflict of "the human heart in conflict with itself", which I find very compelling.
There are several reasons why I believe Marika is involved with the Night of the Black Knives.
First, a black knife assassin is found near the Erdtree, right before the Morgott boss fight. The place where you find the assassin is right before the Queen's Bedchambers site of grace. Most likely Marika's seat of power. One might suspect there is relation between the two.
Second, the black knives assassins are Numen. Yes, that's racist but there is not that many Numen in Elden Ring and Marika might have some affection for her kin.
The third reason is Melina, or more precisely, Melina's moveset. You have the opportunity to fight alongside her against Morgott. You notice then that Melina has the same moveset as the assassins. And in a secret area you can reach by jumping during the elevator ride down to the Forbidden Lands, you can reach a secret office where you can find Melina's knife, the Blade of Calling. The Official's Attire you can also find there mention of magisters handling grim duties.
From that, it's not that farfetched to think Marika had a secret office handling spy operations and assassinations for the Golden Order and that you could find her remaining kin there. Melina, being very likely Marika's daughter, would have been raised in secret by them and they would teach her how they fought.
7:35 Somehow everyone misses the fact that she made the tarnished already knowing that she would break the elden ring and would call them back to finish the job...
12:35 Marika was almost certainly Rannis patron in this, the black knifes are associated with her and she betrayed Maliketh in his duty of containing the rune of death. Very unlikely she was moved by the deaths of her children.
16:00 Pretty sure its Marika telling Mesmer to only blame her.
18:40 The flame of frenzy could also be called the ultimate form of the law of regression.
Thank you for providing some of your thoughts!
I definitley agree that she made the tarnished with a purpose in mind! What makes you think she had planned the shattering of the elden ring when she divested godfrey of light, making him and many others tarnished?
I've seen the interpretation of marika also undertaking the knight of black knives with ranni and it's super interesting. I decided to go with the interpretation that she cared for her godwyn and shattered the elden ring in response, but the opposite could be true too!
I interpret the quote to be messmer adopting the role of a crusader and enforcer of marika's will in the shadow land to spare her reputation because he believes in her and her reign. Though after his death to the tarnished her renounces this role. Interpretation could go either way, but I feel viewing it as messmer's quote makes a more compelling story.
Great point! It could be why the flame of ruin is an essential truth of order itself and thus life.
@@ordinaryunits4341
"My Lord, and thy warriors. I divest each of thee of thy grace.
With thine eyes dimmed, ye will be driven from the Lands Between. Ye will wage war in a land afar, where ye will live, and die.
Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed.
Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring.
Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey."
Referring to cut dialogue is cheating but Godfrey has cut dialogue about this as well, where he knows the elden ring is going to be shattered in the future, and hes waiting for it to happen, so the timeline seems to be:
1.Marika decides to betray the order (because the age of plenty where the Erdtrees blessing covers the land is ending and the new cycle of life and death isnt working like the fingers promised it would? dunno)
2.sends radagon to liurnia with the excuse of helping him become recognized as a god alongside her
3.Creates the tarnished to separate them from Radagon and the elden beast
4.Radagon panics at this and immediately abandons his family and rushes to the capital
4.Plots against Maliketh with Ranni and Rykard
5.Shatteres the elden ring
Tbh, I wasn't much amused by your thesis throughout most of the video, largely due to my own bias against Jung, how much I see too much of everything being "interpreted" in terms of Jung and Nietzsche on TH-cam, and how Elden Ring contains much more literal, much less indirect similarities to the works of a certain other "psychoanalyst" who apparently has not caught your attention yet- specifically with the idea of Merika's "splitting" which, when it comes to psychoanalysis could (edit: probably) have many more implications than simply resembling Jung's Anima and Animus. In the same way I am somewhat tired of seeing every kind of constant struggle getting linked to Nietzsche's self-overcoming.
Such were my complaints until you dropped the dragon thing. And, bravo- it's been years since I last touched any of Nietzsche's books, and I've also seen people mention Nietzsche too many times when talking about Soulsbornes, but I was both surprised by how much your interpretation made sense and how I finally got to see someone actually care to connect their material to Nietzsche's work through analyzing how both treat a specific metaphor ("dragons" in this case). So yea, I actually enjoyed that one!
Sorry it took me 2 weeks to finally give you my thoughts on your video- I was struggling with myself on how to articulate them, but thanks for reaching out nonetheless!
Also, if you feel curious about that certain other psychoanalyst whose ideas seem to have a much harder grip on Elden Ring (from lore details like laws of regression and causality down to the very shape of the ring), I believe there's a post on r/EldenRingLoreTalk by Forsaken_Flower_3459 titled "The Elden Ring as a metaphor for the subject's inner experiences" which, I do not necessarily condone as I have not read it thoroughly myself as to not spoil the fun of a Lacanian analysis of ER for myself, but it does recount some of the more obvious similarities between the lore of ER and Lacan's work.
Thanks for giving me a fun opportunity to rant. I hope you'll have fun too!
Thank you so much for your thoughts! I completely understand why you'd be a bit tired of seeing Nietzschean comparisons in FromSoftware game's as they're all over the place lol. I was tentative myself to make the analysis here because of how overdone it is, but I felt the parallels fit too well to ignore. I also think the overuse of Nietzsche likely comes from frequent misunderstandings and the overall broadness of will to power (as it describes life itself).
I'll definitely look into the metaphor for the subject's inner experience analysis as that sounds interesting!
Also sorry to hear that you're not too much of a fan of Jungian thought. Personally I'm not super tied to his frameworks, but I really appreciate his fixation on the animating "spiritual forces" that underpin our lives.
Either way I'm glad that you were able to enjoy my video and saw a different side to the story of elden ring that you might not have thought of before!
Also I'll keep an eye on your content in the future! I'm excited to see what you do next.
Get this video some attention TH-cam algorithm!
May the almighty algorithm heed our prayers🙏
You should credit TheCenteredTarnished.
I don't think I've ever seen any of thecenteredtarnished's videos and I don't believe I took any of their footage. Are you referring to the radagon is marika part of my video?
i have some issue with your chronology and parentage of marikas children.
I figured that my interpretation would be a bit controversial😅. What is your interpretation of the chronology of Marika's children?
the Omen aren’t the same as hornsent
True! The hornsent is a culture that predated the golden order that venerated those born with horns that they saw as the gift of the crucible (people that would later be referred to as omen). So all omen aren't hornsent, but the hornsent are omen in my understanding.
It is not the philosophy of Elden Ring and Elden Ring for Elden Ring. 😂
What about by Elden Ring?
@@ordinaryunits4341 by Elden Ring with Elden Ring in Elden Ring!
😭😭😭 Why you say Melinas name like that
Lmaooo that was me being tongue tied after recording at 2 A.M💀
volume too low
Nope
The plot of ER is the worst in Soulsborne imo
Hard disagree, I'd say Demon souls takes that crown
What do you mean Marika cheated on Godfrey to birth Mohg and Morgott? Godfrey is definitely Mohg and Morgotts father. If they were from the union of Marika and Radagon like messmer Malenia Melina and Miquella, they’d have a butterfly to represent them like the rest of the children