I would not be surprised that hole was put in with a manual drill press with a tooling jig based off crankshaft keyway. With the jig upside down. It would be off an a equal angle from the crankshaft keyway.
Even when the tools are clearly marked as to their correct usage some operators still manage to use them wrong. I've learned over a long career that you cannot make an "idiot-proof" tool. You can only hope to make them "Idiot - resistant."
I have learned 9 times out 10 its always something simple. Go back to what was done and start there. I say this but I would have been just like yall. I lay in bed and think the same way.
U remind me of my self....don't give up.....we build a lot of different diesel. But when it comes to crankshaft always original...bad experience with Chinese crankshaft..we only get about two weeks to one month....keep up the good work
That’s when I use pico scope tells a whole story any timing issues or compression even a valve issue a good tool to invest it can pay you off in one check
Exactly, I'm sorry but this video is just poor diagnosis and throwing parts until it runs... Sometimes you get faulty parts out of the box, but you HAVE to take that in account. You can get all the data for diag to pinpoint exact problem before changing parts and those guys just haven't done that.
Wow, that’s crazy. Good catch. I highly doubt those cranks are manually and individually pinned, so I would think there’s entire batch just like that. There’s going to be a lot of people having the same problem, likely with alot less troubleshooting experience than you. Maybe add bobcat/doosan D35 engine crank no start to the title so it’s easy to find for others. That’s what I’d search for if I had a similar problem..
Ordered an ac compressor from Friday parts for a t190. Recieved 2 compressors with 2 separate issues! 1st one leaked at 2 places and second one had faulty internals that would not compress! Friday parts tried to tell me that I didn't install correctly. Unfortunately for them my day job is HVAC. Sent videos of everything and they ended up just refunding me my money. Great customer service. Junk parts so far! Ended up ordering a compressor from ebay. Worked great!!
Anything can be wrong if you have new parts. My thought was that it was the index wheel that was on backwards, and maybe it would have started with it on backwards - who knows. But the build quality did seem to be questionable, so this was the best call.
We had a similar situation happen with the reground crank. When the crank was inspected with a mag particle machine, it's changed the magnetic force, which caused the crank sensor to get an erroneous signal. Which caused a no start situation...crazy!! When you mentioned that you got a crank from China, I immediately thought there was a faulty crank sensor error!! Apparently the tech who put it together didn't realize this!! Great Job Brady etal!!!
@@tetradgroup I saw your videos but I don't understand if I buy the new sleeves including the pistons and rings for the general maintenance of the Kubota engine model D750 I ask if the sleeves mate correctly to the engine block without performing mechanical grinding with the new cylinders and relative rings.
Yes. On a John deer 3010 cam had to use a used cam and the injector gear during a serton year was off jd used them anyway. You have to install the injector pump 180 off the timing marks.
This was pretty interesting, having watched a LOT of Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostic videos this could have been diagnosed using a scope such as Picoscope, looking at timing of TDC v Crank Angle.
Reminds me of a engine builder is I never threw away the old parts always match them up, set of timing gears from a reputable company they must have drilled a couple ? How many gears for the lining😊 hole tooth off I actually met two other machines that actually caught the same problem I won't mention the brand name it's a popular name everybody knows but somebody screwed up the gear still good they just drove the timing mark in the wrong place on the gear 1 tooth off. I actually drove the new mark on the gear just so it would look nice.
Great Job guys on finding the issue on the D34, love your channel!!! I have a bobcat e35 mini excavator 2018 2600 hours just lately the last few times of starting it will crank over a good 10 seconds before it finally starts runs fine after that, even after i have ran it for awhile at operating temperature and go to start it again say 20 minutes later the same thing, battery is fine, I just ordered a new fuel filter should be here in a few days filter has about 200 hrs on it, no error codes plenty of fuel in the tank, hopefully the new filter will take care of the issue, is there other things that i should be checking if the filter does not fix the issue. Stay Safe and Take Care
You may want to check your injectors. I just had a machine with a similar issue and it ended up being the injectors bleeding off the pressure in the fuel rail.
I agree with the injectors. I have several videos on how to check for excessive leakage. This can prevent the pump form being able to build enough rail pressure to start, but once its running, the pump can keep up.
@@tetradgroup Thank You for your input, if I do have to change out the injectors does anything special have to be done on the software side or am I good to go..Thanks
@@howardhoward-mk3ji I had same problem on t740 with d34 and bought a bulk filter pack on ebay and wiped out my injectors and then found this channel trying to figure out why it wouldnt start. Dont use anything aftermarket on the fuel system. I put factory injectors in and I was going to get them coded at the dealer but I was told the ecm will learn the injectors over time so I didnt. That was a year ago. Still runs perfect. Just keep your fuel as clean as possible and add some diesel clean also the Delphi injectors are super fussy. Hence the Bosch fuel system now on Doosans.
Unfortunately bad new parts are becoming so common that I will order two when its an important service call. Easier just to return it if the first one is good. Theres about a 40% chance I'll need 2 to find a good one.
I always dismantle and assemble engines with them set on "TDC firing one". That may have (?) shown up the gap on the tone wheel not lining up with the sencor??????
I bought an aftermarket distributor which was classified as universal for V-tech and non-Vtech. Unbeknownst to me, distributor wires went on in different order and drove me crazy because I thought the distributor was just bad right out of the box.
I buyed once Harley Davidson twin cam billet rocker boxes thru Ebay. They came from China. They would not fit. It took while to understand that they made those rocker boxes as mirror. 😁 Dispute worked well, they send new ones which fitted fine. First ones we used as door handles 🤣
I hope some of the revenue and publicity from this video will help the customer towards his bill with you all. I can't even guess how many hours were spent on this.
It's actually not uncommon for aftermarket parts to have the timing components pin incorrectly or have incorrect patterns ETC. Definitely something to keep an eye out for
Good thing you ordered a new crankshaft. The first one's quality didn't look good. But why didn't re-notch the tone wheel to set the injector timing right?
Been working on a Case 650 Quadtrac. It engine needed a new head, but same thing! Nothing available from Fiat. Went aftermarket, and it hasn't ran since!
on the 4.4 cat motors that reluctor wheel is BOLTED onto the rear of the crankshaft ... guess what.. the bolts BACKOUT by themselves and then the engine WILL NOT start. unless you UNPLUG the crank timing sensor, then it will read only on the cam sensor. it WILL run but it has an active code until the reluctor wheel is bolted back onto the crankshaft. took me about 2 hours to figure that out in the field.
This is actually really common when purchasing when parts out of China they just don't care enough to get it right. Even when you give all the critical information they will still get it wrong.
Has to be a timing issue. I worked on tons of those engines, if it starts on ether your engine timing is fine if doesn't it is a timing issue, then it's a fuel issue or injection timing. I know your not suppose to use ether but when you have a problem you need to know just a whiff don't drowned it.
I hate it when you chase something for hours and it turns out to be wrong ,incorrect parts , seems lately this is common with aftermarket electronic parts such as volt regulators ( 3 tried before 1 worked ) ECM's work for short time then crash wrong part supplied after correct info sent or even wrong part in wrong box ( camry front axle wrong diameter )...one tech on here is finding used parts in new part boxes
We had a CAT 3176 no start that the "tone wheel" was installed backwards. And a CAT C6.6 that the wrong rail pressure sensor was installed. It read the correct pressure but wouldn't fire. And a CAT 3406 E no start that the injector harness was installed reversed.
🤣🤣 watching this real quick before doin a side job hear the name " Joel" and the wife runs in saying is that your buddies talking about you? 🤣🤣😅😂😅 told her no im just "thatguy" 🤣🤣😭😭😂
@@tetradgroup 😅😅 wife and I are expecting our 1st little one, so at the moment I'm making the best of it out here getting a lot busier thanks to you though 🤝🏽
It would not work either way. I know it will run without the cam but not sure on the crank, I haven't tested on a good engine, only going off what Bobcat says.
😂 checking old for replacement #1 Rule would of saved a load of unessary hard work ... ... Mind you some times hard to spot ... in the heat of the moment ... I am guessing some one else is crunching their nuts cause the item you received is what they should of been delivered ??? Electronic controlled engines are great till they dont .... 😢😢😢😢😢 Agspanner
Yall really need an oscilloscope and fogure out hie to use one. Scanner danner has a book and also videos on how to diagnose issues like that with an oscilloscope without removing the engine. Its not just issues like this its almost anyissue.
Thanks, I will have to watch his videos. We checked with an oscilloscope and knew it was working correctly but I was not able to know if the timing was correct.
@@tetradgroup The whole thing with oscilliscope is getting a known good. All you need is the same machine to get a waveform to compare. He also has a book which you can buy. I mean its based for vehicles but its 100% the same testing methods.
@@kevinpulliam8029 100% it would have prevented the thousands spent on swapping sensors and wiring harnesses and whatever else it was that they said was replaced tryign to find the cause.
Aren't all the "teeth" on that tone wheel the same size and spaced identically from each other? To the position sensor reading the tone wheel... the teeth are all identical to one another, and the spaces between each tooth are identical. To that sensor... it's either "on" or "off" Theoretically, the sensor isn't looking for 4 particular teeth on the periphery of the wheel to know when to fire the injectors, it's just counting the degrees the crankshaft has turned... teeth are teeth to the sensor. What I'm saying is that the pin hole was probably off only a few degrees one direction or another and if, magically, the computer could have told them that.... theoretically, they could relocate the pin hole in the wheel and get it correctly timed....practically, not going to happen.
There is one missing tooth on the tone wheel. The sensor notices that gap and that’s what tells the ecm where the engine is at in its rotation. With the pin in the wrong place the ecm was firing the injectors at the Incorrect time therefore not enough compression at the correct time to start
I would not be surprised that hole was put in with a manual drill press with a tooling jig based off crankshaft keyway. With the jig upside down. It would be off an a equal angle from the crankshaft keyway.
Even when the tools are clearly marked as to their correct usage some operators still manage to use them wrong. I've learned over a long career that you cannot make an "idiot-proof" tool. You can only hope to make them "Idiot - resistant."
Oter option is manually inputting numbers to the CNC machine and mixing plus or minus sign.
I have learned 9 times out 10 its always something simple. Go back to what was done and start there. I say this but I would have been just like yall. I lay in bed and think the same way.
U remind me of my self....don't give up.....we build a lot of different diesel. But when it comes to crankshaft always original...bad experience with Chinese crankshaft..we only get about two weeks to one month....keep up the good work
What a good find. I am the same way laying awake at night trying to solve a mechanical mystery.
That’s when I use pico scope tells a whole story any timing issues or compression even a valve issue a good tool to invest it can pay you off in one check
Exactly, I'm sorry but this video is just poor diagnosis and throwing parts until it runs... Sometimes you get faulty parts out of the box, but you HAVE to take that in account. You can get all the data for diag to pinpoint exact problem before changing parts and those guys just haven't done that.
definitely going to be thinking about this every time i replace a crankshaft or tone wheel
Ooooo. That sucks! 😂 Good job Brady! I would have pulled my hair out on that one! Wow.
Excellent video, a lifetime memory thanks guys👍🛠
Good find fellers
I’ve got to admit. I would have been scratching my head on that issue for weeks. Nice work figuring it out. Can’t always trust new parts
Wow, that’s crazy. Good catch.
I highly doubt those cranks are manually and individually pinned, so I would think there’s entire batch just like that. There’s going to be a lot of people having the same problem, likely with alot less troubleshooting experience than you.
Maybe add bobcat/doosan D35 engine crank no start to the title so it’s easy to find for others. That’s what I’d search for if I had a similar problem..
Great point
Ordered an ac compressor from Friday parts for a t190. Recieved 2 compressors with 2 separate issues! 1st one leaked at 2 places and second one had faulty internals that would not compress! Friday parts tried to tell me that I didn't install correctly. Unfortunately for them my day job is HVAC. Sent videos of everything and they ended up just refunding me my money. Great customer service. Junk parts so far! Ended up ordering a compressor from ebay. Worked great!!
Anything can be wrong if you have new parts.
My thought was that it was the index wheel that was on backwards, and maybe it would have started with it on backwards - who knows. But the build quality did seem to be questionable, so this was the best call.
That's terrible. Who sold that junk? They need to pay your time. The customer got hosed on this from a downtime perspective.
I own an operate a small Ag repair shop since about mid 2020 I have seen continued problems with Parts. I feel your pain.
Who the hell would have ever thought ? Great find/save
Great information guys. Thank you.
Wow,you guys are excellent. Tks for sharing.
We had a similar situation happen with the reground crank. When the crank was inspected with a mag particle machine, it's changed the magnetic force, which caused the crank sensor to get an erroneous signal. Which caused a no start situation...crazy!!
When you mentioned that you got a crank from China, I immediately thought there was a faulty crank sensor error!!
Apparently the tech who put it together didn't realize this!!
Great Job Brady etal!!!
That is crazy
@@tetradgroup I saw your videos but I don't understand if I buy the new sleeves including the pistons and rings for the general maintenance of the Kubota engine model D750 I ask if the sleeves mate correctly to the engine block without performing mechanical grinding with the new cylinders and relative rings.
Yes. On a John deer 3010 cam had to use a used cam and the injector gear during a serton year was off jd used them anyway. You have to install the injector pump 180 off the timing marks.
That happened to be on the engine diesel fuel coming out of the exhaust pipe
Good Job Guys, 👍🏼🇺🇸
Great team you have there. Glad youre only the next state over.
This was pretty interesting, having watched a LOT of Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostic videos this could have been diagnosed using a scope such as Picoscope, looking at timing of TDC v Crank Angle.
That’s good info..excellent!
😂 I bet that was some relief when you found it
This is so common today, the parts quality is so poor in the aftermarket.
Reminds me of a engine builder is I never threw away the old parts always match them up, set of timing gears from a reputable company they must have drilled a couple ? How many gears for the lining😊 hole tooth off I actually met two other machines that actually caught the same problem I won't mention the brand name it's a popular name everybody knows but somebody screwed up the gear still good they just drove the timing mark in the wrong place on the gear 1 tooth off. I actually drove the new mark on the gear just so it would look nice.
Great Job guys on finding the issue on the D34, love your channel!!! I have a bobcat e35 mini excavator 2018 2600 hours just lately the last few times of starting it will crank over a good 10 seconds before it finally starts runs fine after that, even after i have ran it for awhile at operating temperature and go to start it again say 20 minutes later the same thing, battery is fine, I just ordered a new fuel filter should be here in a few days filter has about 200 hrs on it, no error codes plenty of fuel in the tank, hopefully the new filter will take care of the issue, is there other things that i should be checking if the filter does not fix the issue. Stay Safe and Take Care
You may want to check your injectors. I just had a machine with a similar issue and it ended up being the injectors bleeding off the pressure in the fuel rail.
I agree with the injectors. I have several videos on how to check for excessive leakage. This can prevent the pump form being able to build enough rail pressure to start, but once its running, the pump can keep up.
@@jeremyg9240 Thanks for your response, after I installed the new fuel filter and still have the same issue I will be checking into the injectors.
@@tetradgroup Thank You for your input, if I do have to change out the injectors does anything special have to be done on the software side or am I good to go..Thanks
@@howardhoward-mk3ji
I had same problem on t740 with d34 and bought a bulk filter pack on ebay and wiped out my injectors and then found this channel trying to figure out why it wouldnt start.
Dont use anything aftermarket on the fuel system.
I put factory injectors in and I was going to get them coded at the dealer but I was told the ecm will learn the injectors over time so I didnt.
That was a year ago.
Still runs perfect.
Just keep your fuel as clean as possible and add some diesel clean also the Delphi injectors are super fussy.
Hence the Bosch fuel system now on Doosans.
good catch!
Unfortunately bad new parts are becoming so common that I will order two when its an important service call. Easier just to return it if the first one is good. Theres about a 40% chance I'll need 2 to find a good one.
I always dismantle and assemble engines with them set on "TDC firing one". That may have (?) shown up the gap on the tone wheel not lining up with the sencor??????
Good for you..!!
Awesome, sometimes you just need to walk away, and think about it.
I bought an aftermarket distributor which was classified as universal for V-tech and non-Vtech. Unbeknownst to me, distributor wires went on in different order and drove me crazy because I thought the distributor was just bad right out of the box.
I buyed once Harley Davidson twin cam billet rocker boxes thru Ebay. They came from China. They would not fit. It took while to understand that they made those rocker boxes as mirror. 😁 Dispute worked well, they send new ones which fitted fine. First ones we used as door handles 🤣
Super interesting ...great catch
Love these videos keep them coming 👀💪🏽🤝🏽
That's nuts who would do that ???😮😮😮
Maybe if the tone ring should've had a broached keyway along with the dowl hole
I hope some of the revenue and publicity from this video will help the customer towards his bill with you all. I can't even guess how many hours were spent on this.
It's actually not uncommon for aftermarket parts to have the timing components pin incorrectly or have incorrect patterns ETC. Definitely something to keep an eye out for
Good thing you ordered a new crankshaft. The first one's quality didn't look good. But why didn't re-notch the tone wheel to set the injector timing right?
I learned a long time ago that you have to examine new parts against old
parts every time you replace something. It will (as we see here) bite you.
had the same thing on a new dirt bike crank. They had the keyway in the wrong spot. Took me months to figure it out.
This prompts that it's a good idea to compare any new parts with the old on rebuild.
Starting to see this kind of stuff more often now as quality control is overridden by profit margins. This kind of stuff was rare in the 70's and 80's
Match your parts before installation of parts and yes Monday or Friday parts allways have faults
Been working on a Case 650 Quadtrac.
It engine needed a new head, but same thing! Nothing available from Fiat.
Went aftermarket, and it hasn't ran since!
Thats a bummer
on the 4.4 cat motors that reluctor wheel is BOLTED onto the rear of the crankshaft ... guess what.. the bolts BACKOUT by themselves and then the engine WILL NOT start. unless you UNPLUG the crank timing sensor, then it will read only on the cam sensor. it WILL run but it has an active code until the reluctor wheel is bolted back onto the crankshaft. took me about 2 hours to figure that out in the field.
This is actually really common when purchasing when parts out of China they just don't care enough to get it right. Even when you give all the critical information they will still get it wrong.
Thanks!
Thank you so much!
Great.Im a mechanic .bobcat & others
That's crazy
Has to be a timing issue. I worked on tons of those engines, if it starts on ether your engine timing is fine if doesn't it is a timing issue, then it's a fuel issue or injection timing. I know your not suppose to use ether but when you have a problem you need to know just a whiff don't drowned it.
I hate it when you chase something for hours and it turns out to be wrong ,incorrect parts , seems lately this is common with aftermarket electronic parts such as volt regulators ( 3 tried before 1 worked ) ECM's work for short time then crash wrong part supplied after correct info sent or even wrong part in wrong box ( camry front axle wrong diameter )...one tech on here is finding used parts in new part boxes
We had a CAT 3176 no start that the "tone wheel" was installed backwards. And a CAT C6.6 that the wrong rail pressure sensor was installed. It read the correct pressure but wouldn't fire. And a CAT 3406 E no start that the injector harness was installed reversed.
THANK YOU JESUS !
What is the buzzing noise when you shut it off? My bobcat makes the same noise.
🤣🤣 watching this real quick before doin a side job hear the name " Joel" and the wife runs in saying is that your buddies talking about you? 🤣🤣😅😂😅 told her no im just "thatguy" 🤣🤣😭😭😂
I would love to have another Joel in the shop. When can you escape Commiefornia and move to Utah?
@@tetradgroup 😅😅 wife and I are expecting our 1st little one, so at the moment I'm making the best of it out here getting a lot busier thanks to you though 🤝🏽
How did we ever get to this point where EVERYTHING has a sensor? Amazing that we made it all these years without them. I so believe in the KISS rule.
And everything comes from China
Crank sensors have been around for 40 years now. This was just junk manufacturing
bobcat should have had the part
Thanks China! How many of those cranks are out there?
Strange/ Brings to mind boat engines left and right hand cams.!!!
Because it is a diesel I know what's wrong with it, a'int got no gas in it. 😂😂😂
Seen a cat engine crank was in backwards!
This crank is for another engine model always check dont assume
All the more reason to bring manufacturing back to the US.
Hey Brady. Would this engine start with the cam shaft sensor if you had unplug the crank shaft sensor? Very good observation.
It would not work either way. I know it will run without the cam but not sure on the crank, I haven't tested on a good engine, only going off what Bobcat says.
@@tetradgroup working on a d24. I will unplug it tomorrow and try it. Very good troubleshooting.
@@hardialsawh9843 I bet it won't run without the crank. Doosan doesn't support a camshaft correlation code. So they are using the crankshaft.
😂 checking old for replacement #1 Rule would of saved a load of unessary hard work ... ...
Mind you some times hard to spot ... in the heat of the moment ...
I am guessing some one else is crunching their nuts cause the item you received is what they should of been delivered ???
Electronic controlled engines are great till they dont .... 😢😢😢😢😢
Agspanner
Why didn't you just drill another hole in crankshaft ?
Shoulda sent a 30 second snapshot to bobcat
Korea company now.
Yall really need an oscilloscope and fogure out hie to use one. Scanner danner has a book and also videos on how to diagnose issues like that with an oscilloscope without removing the engine. Its not just issues like this its almost anyissue.
Thanks, I will have to watch his videos. We checked with an oscilloscope and knew it was working correctly but I was not able to know if the timing was correct.
Scope wouldn't prevent remove and teardown engine
@@kevinpulliam8029 It totally would have prevented the thousands in parts and labor replacing all the parts they did.
@@tetradgroup The whole thing with oscilliscope is getting a known good. All you need is the same machine to get a waveform to compare. He also has a book which you can buy. I mean its based for vehicles but its 100% the same testing methods.
@@kevinpulliam8029 100% it would have prevented the thousands spent on swapping sensors and wiring harnesses and whatever else it was that they said was replaced tryign to find the cause.
good ol ebay chinese junk, those casting marks look horrible, yea even though it dont effect much but still shows quality of work.
Aren't all the "teeth" on that tone wheel the same size and spaced identically from each other?
To the position sensor reading the tone wheel... the teeth are all identical to one another, and the spaces between each tooth are identical. To that sensor... it's either "on" or "off"
Theoretically, the sensor isn't looking for 4 particular teeth on the periphery of the wheel to know when to fire the injectors, it's just counting the degrees the crankshaft has turned... teeth are teeth to the sensor.
What I'm saying is that the pin hole was probably off only a few degrees one direction or another and if, magically, the computer could have told them that.... theoretically, they could relocate the pin hole in the wheel and get it correctly timed....practically, not going to happen.
There is one missing tooth on the tone wheel. The sensor notices that gap and that’s what tells the ecm where the engine is at in its rotation. With the pin in the wrong place the ecm was firing the injectors at the Incorrect time therefore not enough compression at the correct time to start
Who pays this bill?
Зато полная диагностика проведена😊
China crank must be for rhd engine lol
Xu Ping motors strikes again......
Cheap chinese crap just sent all of you down the rabbit hole.
Good find sir.
Lesson learned
Chinesium
More garbage from the biggest producer of junk parts
China= no quality control.
I bought a flashlight with a compass that was 90° out, North was West. 😂
Money is what you spend value is what you get
Is there anything I get I have to verify everything is suspect you don't assume nothing in today's world there's no quality involved
part from China.....
Man, if that won't leave ya talkin' to yourself I don't know what will. Holy Smokes.