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Liz, Thank you for your videos...... After watching them I've made my decision...With my residential construction / automotive background, and my current job as an industrial mechanic, electronics tech.....I'm building my own RV. From the ground up. Thanks Again!
I designed a RV due to my 20+ years repairing them that would solve 90% of the issues you show. It didn't take my engineering degree to figure it out, only common sense. Even though my methods would save the RV industry millions, they are so corrupt they can't even consider it.
We full-timed. But now when I see rigs going down the road, I shudder every time I see them. I'm just shocked how long it's taking for this to go into a class action suit - Lippert and Grand design need to be held accountable!
Liz you have really saved me from making HORRIBLE mistakes with bad uninformed choices. Thank God there’s somebody speaking up for those of us that are buying these units!
Totally agree. It just isnt right that many RV makers are selling product with defects, and not standing behind their crappy made RV's. Especially when steel frames are breaking in half. There should be a law to protect the consumers. If I spent over 100K and the frame broke, and the maker of that RV refused to fix it, I would hire a good lawyer. Plus who ever else would go after them.
Just wait for the technician to get off of work and follow home. Buy him/her a 12 pack and ask all the questions you like with no intervention from management. There I fixed it for ya 👍
"I reached to the head of customer relations at Winnebago, which owns Grand Design, plus my contacts at Grand Design customer service. So far the response I've gotten from them is a hard NO." That's all I needed to hear when it comes to who NOT to do business with. Keep up the OUTSTANDING work, Liz. Keep bringing the truth and eventually the market will implode on these businesses with abhorrent customer service and products.
Thanks for this! I've worked with a lot of other RV mfrs, as you know, and this is the first time I've gotten a response like this. Now that the video is out I am hoping they change their stance. Thanks for watching and I will keep you posted.
I've been researching RV's for a year or so now. I can guarantee you that I wouldn't give a nickle to any Winnebago affiliated company if this is the way they treat customers.
Hey Liz. WOW, I have a Grand Design and have not had any issues with the frame flexing (knock on wood) but I will keep a lookout for problems. I have some advice for Grand Design and Lippor. You need to nip this in the bud NOW. I forsee a class action and a host of BAD press coming your way. You can be proactive or reactive gentelmen, which do you think is good for your company? Safe travels and keep up the pressure...
Everyone needs to get in touch with their state representatives and push for rv lemon laws that will hold all rv brands accountable for the junk they produce and push on unsuspecting buyers. This is the only way to force manufacturers to build to a standard and improve quality control.
A guy I worked with retired and wanted a RV to be his home. That guy read and watched hundreds of hours of RV videos. He even went to Elkhart Indiana to where a lot of RV's are built. He told me that the materials and quality of workmanship on RV's was a joke.
This couple seem reasonable and are able articulate the issues very well. Shame on Grand Design (aka: Winnebago). I own a Grand Design, 2016, and no problems BUT NOW I AM SO EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED AND EMBARRASSED IN GRAND DESIGN. Shame on Lippert for sending out their RV frames that are unsafe! I think Grand Design needs to hire a flatbed truck and pick up this Momentum and take it to Indiana and FIX IT. GRAND DESIGN, WHERE IS YOUR INTEGRITY?
I agree that GD needs to take this rig back, but logistically it's not possible to put a big toy hauler like that on a flat bed due to bridge height restrictions. GD should just buy out this couple and then scrap the rig in place.
I agree that Lippert should bare some responsibility. I personally would not make frames that anyone designs that are not holding up to the weight and construction
I’m so so disappointed in hearing this. We just bought a 2024 Grand Design last November. In our research and shopping we eliminated one manufacturer at a time…and landed with only Grand Design left. When we have worked our whole careers as teachers, we are not wealthy people and spending this kind of money on an RV is MASSIVE for us. We have a Reflection 337 RLS and have only had it out twice so far. I hope we don’t have to become unpleasant to get things done with the minor things we are already seeing…oven not working…and leaky seal in the bedroom slide. So far Grand Design has told us they absolutely will replace the seal and do whatever needs to happen to get the oven working. Crossed fingers that our dealer will have our backs. Best of luck with your Momentum…
@janetswope5695 Janet it's a major problem study up on it as much as possible. It has affected other manufacturers in the luxury fifthwheel market and in the cheap pull behinds too. I will pull mine with my Kenworth t680 . I will also keep it as light as possible. I've noticed a majority of the ones on you tube had full-time heavily loaded trls. My 2 cent worth. Road conditions also play (as a retired 4 million mile trucker opinion) a major factor also. Slow down on bridges with rough on an off where thr trl bounces. That's major flex right there. I'm in same boat as yall just use common sense and maybe we get through this.
If those photos are of a 3 year old unit then clearly they know what the actual issue is. There should not be rust on a relatively new unit. As far as shoddy welding, you gets what you pay for. As using cheaper steel may also contribute to weld penetration and over longevity of the frame. Class action lawsuits may be in your future
The best day we had with our RV was when we sold it. It’s not just DG. It’s a lot of manufacturers who just don’t care to dealers who know they’re selling junk! Never again.
This guy hit the nail on the head, how did Honda, Toyota, Datsun, Volkswagen, et al get their foot in the door? The crap that was coming out of Detroit is how. The very same thing could easily happen in the RV industry, and they'll have no one to blame but themselves.
@@LizAmazing Idaho would be a great location for a quality RV trailer frame manufacturer to start business. This State used to have some well known brands of RVs made here. Dunno how or why the industry has concentrated in Elkhart Indiana. Cheap Amish labor?
Liz, your honest channel has helped me realize that RV life is not for me. Most of these vehicles are junk. I love road trips but I am quite happy staying at hotels along the way. A vacation should be stress free. RV life does not appear to be.
Sorry to hear that, David. Not a good time to buy new, but trailers and fifth wheels built in 2018 and before tend to be well-built. The motorhome sweet spot is 2002 to 2008. Whatever you buy, join the Facebook group of the model to get the scoop from owners. And always get an inspection. Another advantage of buying used is the seller has typically gotten the kinks out. Thanks for watching. For more about what to buy used see my recent video: th-cam.com/video/JSo5n2B62MA/w-d-xo.html
@user-rr7bv6my4e I think one of those Mercedes vans with a rear bathroom would be the closest thing, it when I do the math and consider their upfront cost, MPG, Insurance, storage cost, maintenance, etc. I could take a lot of trips staying nightly in a Hampton Inn before I would even approach the cost of the Mercedes Van.
Younger and with less time to travel (I now realize what a hell life it was, subsisting on two weeks vacation each year), we did hotels. Apparently, that was a time when they were cleaner, safer and people had manners. Now? Nope. Our 2011 Coachmen Class C. We only had one real mechanical problem: the wire harness controlling the slide fell onto a wheel and was shredded. Other than that, it has been a dream to travel in. Any problems with the RV came from people: during COVID, it was in storage while we sheltered in a condo. Poor Arvee. Broken into, trashed interior, looks like they took a crowbar to the outside, then the &$#( people stole the catalytic convertor. Progressive RV insurance paid for the catalytic convertor, but the exterior damage? They paid a pittance. We've done hotel stays while consulting health specialists and hated .. haaaated ... it.
I would recommend people take a look at Northwood Campers (Arctic Fox, Nash, and Outdoors RV). They make their own frames in-house specific to each model and don't have the frame failure issues of the mass produced crap coming out of Indiana. The biggest draw back with them is they are Pacific Northwest based (and hard to find in the Eastern part of the U.S.) and heavier than campers of the same size because they are well-built and well insulated, true 4-season campers.
Stories like yours have been a major driver of my decision to have nothing to do with RVing. I'm a Pro craftsman and can fix anything, but I won't work with junk. The industry clearly has lost sight of the basic in business...make a quality product, serve your customers, make them happy, keep them happy...that equals repeat business and success as a person and in business.
Sorry to hear that. Not a good time to buy new, but trailers and fifth wheels built in 2018 and before tend to be well-built. The motorhome sweet spot is 2002 to 2008. Whatever you buy, join the Facebook group of the model to get the scoop from owners. And always get an inspection. Another advantage of buying used is the seller has typically gotten the kinks out. Thanks for watching. For more about what to buy used see my recent video: th-cam.com/video/JSo5n2B62MA/w-d-xo.html
@@LizAmazing 100% true. Don’t buy new. As you know Liz, we bought our Grand Design, Reflection (5th wheel), in 2016 and it’s solid. Sometimes I think about upgrading to a newer RV, and then I come to my senses!
Nobody has to buy this new junk. There were some manufacturers back in the day who did good work. You have to do your research to find out which ones were good. Those are the ones on our short list. I've researched for years.
@@LizAmazingListen to Liz,I bought a 2004 Bounder,gas,35' and it's built nice and strong,13,900 miles on it, just broke in, cheap wallpaper the biggest complaint 😅
There’s a saying in the auto sales industry. “The last thing you want to do is take one of your customers and make them somebody else’s customer.” And that’s exactly what every dealer and manufacturer in the RV business is doing.
Thank you.Liz My question to you is. Instead of going to the manufacturer again for answers. What do you think of going to a federal watchdog group or agency or even the Dept of transportation with this video? for sure. As we know these trailers and the bad frames are a danger to the driver and the public being on the road. Think of sharing this video to Pete Buttigieg head of Dept of Transportation
This is truly sad that a company has been presented, with irrefutable proof, that their product is failing at an alarmingly high rate. I guarantee they have consulted with their lawyers as to how to defend & deflect this issue. They dont want to admit there is a severe safety issue here. If & when somebody dies due to this, they'll most likely file for bankruptcy to avoid paying any judgements. Time will tell.
We have a Grand Design 376TH. 2019. Our driver side wall on the RV sagged due to frame failure. We fixed ourselves. I don’t know why anyone going forward would consider a GD seeing how customer service has handled this major frame issue across so many of their rigs. I never will. Thank you for bringing issues to light. So many are unaware. The 397 across from us had the GD SRT here tacking it together and it’s headed back to factory for frame repair.
I have an 18 376th, before mid year refresh that added the morryde steps. I haven't had any issues aside from leaf springs. What section of the rig had failure? The outriggers in the kitchen area, or up in the living room?
@@smirnoff242 about half way back on the kitchen slide to the mid tire area. The triangle frame gussets are flat aft of the fridge. Those fold and fail. I believe not supported well for washer dryer and pantry weight. This has been an issue on several 376 units. Not all. However the potential is there on all. At least 2019 and earlier for sure.
@@tadblankenbaker4587 I have a 2019, 376 and so far it's been ok with the frame issue you describe. I have about 20k miles on my rig also. My problem has been with my passenger side front slide as I detailed above.
I first heard of this problem back in 2018. A couple friends of mine were fighting with Lippert to fix it way back then. The manufacturer is well aware of this problem and has been for a long time.
This couple should never have to go through this like others have. Your insider with the statement on welding is eye opening. I find it sad that the truckers and auto manufacturers have to jump through hoops to be safe and yet another unit that travels the us highways has no oversight.
I’m becoming convinced after watching and listening to these stories, that none of the RV manufacturing companies have mastered the art of building a quality rig today. However, Liz you are a great communicator and spokesperson for rv’ers.
The high end motorhomes (we can't afford) do well but all of rigs below $500K use the buyers as beta testers. A great product lawyer in the northwest said, "Do not buy an RV." To those of us without real cash it means buy an older rv that has everything fixed. Since 84' Foretravel has committed to quality first, Texas.
You are so welcome, Greg, glad to be making a difference! Thanks for watching
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This man has remarkable composure, as does his wife!FMVSS needs to get involved with RVs as human safety is at risk. Watched my father survive Korean & Vietnam war and enjoy his Holiday Rambler many years. It is terribly distressing to see the industry overall makes junk now. Saw an older Holiday yesterday while walking. Just stood and admired the solid construction. You two fine people deserved. better! This channel and Wingman do great work helping people! God Bless you All!
Another thing is that many of these folks are retired and I think manufacturers are thinking "Oh dollar signs so we'll build this thing as cheap as we can to have stockholder returns that are high". In other words, they're taking advantage of people who are retired just for the money.
Went to the FMCA Convention in Tucson last week. Thousands of RVs from all over. There was a little RV diagnostic company among the vendors in the exhibit hall. They had a line out the door, hundreds of people all day long for four days. All looking to get a report on their RV problem that they could take to their dealer, manufacturer, or mechanic when they got back home. Never seen anything like this at any car, truck, or boat show -- ever. Shocking. As a consumer, I suppose the only way to go at this is to buy used... pre-Covid used. Even better, 2005-2010 used. And even then, given the repeated RV problems with slides and frames, maybe it's best to travel via Amtrak bedrooms, nice old hotels, and rent a car here and there as you go. With today's RV prices, you would save a lot of money just avoiding them altogether.
My road trip experiences told me that I should never follow a 5th wheel or stay close by, especially these newer ones. They will blow up, shred into pieces and eventually put other drivers at risk as well. I got stuck on I-5 in Oregon for 5 hours because of that. Both the 5th wheel and the tow truck were in pieces on the FWY. SAD.
What a lovely down to earth couple. It just blows the mind how these companies are able to continue selling models with serious defects that could pose a threat to human safety. There is no question that a significantly compromised frame presents a dangerous condition. It’s just outrageous given these are huge units intended and approved for interstate travel. If these were automobile frames or even tricycles with a faulty weld on the back step, there would be a stop sale order and recall!
One thing they really need to do is hire an independent NRVIA certified inspector to inspect their toy hauler BEFORE it goes back to Grand Design. Get everything identified in a written report that they can give to Grand Design.
Apparently it's not going back to Grand Design. They're refusing to take it back to the factory, even just to repair it. G-D is really shooting themselves in the foot.
Great work Liz. The most important part of this video his the communication from your confidential informant at Lippert. I hope you'll do a whole video about that. I think this is much bigger than outrage on TH-cam. This needs to be on 60 Minutes or another high profile media exposure. People's lives are literally at risk. One of these big RVs could literally come apart on the highway endangering many people.
I don't know how one of these things could be built to withstand driving down interstates and random roads. I mean it would be like a house being shaken for 8 hours a day. I agree they are junk, but even built well I don't se how a bouncing house no matter how well built can last.
Liz , I'm so sorry for these two people and all the problems they are having with there Grand Design motorhome. My wife and I have been thinking of purchasing a motorhome. We have a Class A 40' but she can't drive this large motorhome. We were thinking of a Grand Design because everyone has talked so Great about there product. Well after seeing this video I can say we will have to consider other options. If they will not step up for a new product having a factory defective frame. I know we could never trust there product. If I was treated like them I can honestly say I would be in jail by now. I wish you well and hope you can help resolve this problem for them in some say. Thanks for all you do to help others .
Wow, this is crazy. These RV's are NOT safe. I don't think they can be "fixed", that's why there's resistance to admit there's a problem. Once the RV is built on the frame you can't fix the frame without disassembling the entire RV.
Liz, good on you for bringing your influence to bear on behalf of the otherwise small voices. Though I don't currently have an RV/camper, I have owned a slide-in camper and a 25-foot travel trailer in the past and have been considering jumping back into the market. Your videos have really given me something to think about, and if we do get another rig, we will only reward the manufacturers and dealers that have shown some integrity over these admittedly difficult covid years. Keep on truckin'!
I'm so sorry for your situation. Wife and I had wanted to do the RV life when we both retired but I ended up with the Cancer bug so money had to go elsewhere, but I kept thinking of what would have happened if we had purchased an RV just prior to my annoying illness. For one, if it had the defaults like yours had, it would be hard for me to pass it on to another when I got sick. Just couldn't do it. Also, if my C thing would have killed me, my wife would have been stuck trying to sell a defective RV. So many people in the same boat as we would have been. I pray for you that your nightmare is over and you've made them take the RV back and you've found a replacement that is solid and what you wanted Let us know, how it turned out. Thank you and prayers your way
Great video Liz. Keep it going. Inspectors is not the best way to go. Watch other videos. They don’t take apart the rv. They can only see what’s exposed. The big problem here is Indiana attorney general gets a lot of money from the lobbyist. It’s no secret, it’s on TH-cam. Something needs to be done with any trailer that people worked hard to buy. It’s no joke
I know. There are no easy answers. And an inspector is not going to be able to take it apart and see the frame problems, unfortunately. Thanks for watching.
There is a good 3 part youtube series on Lippert frame manufacturing, The use US made steel and most of the welding is done by robot. If you have frame questions watch them. Also I would guess 70 to 80% of the trucks towing a fifth wheel are overloaded on the rear axel.
I watched the videos. What I recall was the I-beams being welded by a robot. They still had 600 welders on the line making even more welds. They run 1000 frames through a day. If there are 100 welds per unit (just a guess), that is 12000 welds being done a day that are not robotic. If your people are not highly trained welders then you can expect some workmanship issues
It seems to me Lippert engineers design and make the frame according to Grand Designs Specifications. I have heard that where these issues start coming up is when Grand Designs deviates from its original design plan that it submitted to Lippert engineers for approval. I’m no engineer but I would think that any and all deviations from the original specifications should in fact go back to Lippert engineers for approval. It’s sad to see Ram recall close to a million or so trucks all for a an emissions not safety related issue but yet there’s no one who’s got the back of these 5th wheel owners? I’d hate to see someone have to lose their life or seriously injured in an accident caused by a 5th wheel for things to change. Remember it’s not just 5th wheel owners out on the roads. All of us including our children and loved ones could be affected. Thanks again Liz for allowing others a place to voice their concerns.
Liz, your videos have changed my mind 180 degrees about buying/owning a RV. To spend that much money and have so many significant issues, it’s not worth it.
The road does lead through Indiana as the RV buyer of most RVs agree on purchase to abide by laws of that state when it comes to warranty work that needs to change and to my knowledge only California is putting pressure on the manufacturer to change this@@WinePunk
that damage looks like metal fatigue stress fractures from sub-par cheap metal framing! could splint weld it with heavy duty metal plates... BUT you should not have to do this on a new RV
I've seen numerous videos where RV owners have had numerous problems with Lippert products. Not just frames but leveling jacks and even steps. I just saw a video a couple of days ago where a guy bought a bumper pull to take hemis family on a vacation to Alaska while traveling through some road construction the tongue folded up on the trailer. The manufacturer blamed it on him taking the trailer off road. While doing his research to try and get someone to repair his trailer he found that there were numerous trailers with bent tongues. All manufactured by Lippert. The problem stems from them not using a heavy enough guage steel for the tongue
Here is one idea for you. Get all the ones with an issue, organize a caravan to show up at Grand Design service(make it big a long) with banners etc. And call all the media, tv news, and you’ll see how quick they will take action Oh wonder, what happened that you sold your RV and decided to go underground? Did you received any threats ?
No threats. I had an RV mfr try to buy me in exchange for not posting a video. That got me thinking that what I am doing is really making an impact. I wasn't concerned at the mfr level, more so on the dealer level. I don't want to worry about some half crazed salesman wanting to slash my tires. I know it was a long shot but I didn't want to wait until it became obvious that I need to be incognito. So now I'm flying under the radar. Thanks for your support, and that's a great idea about the caravan. Stay tuned!
@@LizAmazingWow! Thanks for posting all those details. Not sure if you’ve mentioned this level of detail in any recent videos, but please do. We all have so much respect for your work and not being “bought off” from a mfg just makes me respect your integrity and character even more. Please keep doing what you’re doing- we need you out there! - from a full-timer since 2012 and in our 3rd beloved Keystone Alpine 5th wheel made in 2017.
@@LizAmazing dear liz yes me again any time you need to be kept safe and under the radar i can lend you my guard dog fifi she is very very brave all, she isn't aware that she is a chihuahua and a teacup size beast from hell she thinks she is the same size as a horned bull just don't get your lip near hers or she will take it off blessing to you from autralia
Liz, thank you so much for making these videos. Knowing these facts, anyone who buys a grand design at this point with these issues has no one to blame but themselves.
Short answer to these issues....don't buy new! There are a lot of used rigs out there for sale, find one whose owners have aged out and want to sell. Don't buy one that is made after 2018. Mine is a 2006 and it's been wonderful.....within reason! Get an inspection done before you lay any money out. LOOK UNDERNEATH THE RIG!!! Buying used means you may not get all the bells and whistles you want. Isn't it more important to have a safe and sturdy RV than one with 3 slides and a fireplace??? Unless you have more money than sense, think about what I just told you folks. Good luck and happy trails!!!
So sad the retired couple bought the rig and wanted to enjoy their life but ended up suffering from the nightmare. Thanks Liz for sharing the story which is a warning to other potential buyers.
Indeed. Not a good time to buy new, but trailers and fifth wheels built in 2018 and before tend to be well-built. The motorhome sweet spot is 2002 to 2008. Whatever you buy, join the Facebook group of the model to get the scoop from owners. And always get an inspection. Another advantage of buying used is the seller has typically gotten the kinks out. Thanks for watching. For more about what to buy used see my recent video: th-cam.com/video/JSo5n2B62MA/w-d-xo.html
This is where I believe the lemon law should be added to rvs. If it was, the industry would worry more about the product they put out and not just the money they get upfront.
I hate that so many people are going thru this. I bought my Keystone Mini a little over a year ago , and have had great luck with it. The reason - its a 2018 { pre covid} Its also light weight which doesn't seem to have the frame issues that the bigger rigs have. Before every trip I crawl under ,,inspect every weld, and with a 4' straight edge check every inch of the frame. I also did this before I bought it. Before buying I also brought along a ladder and inspected the roof. So far so good but buyer beware.
I'm shocked to hear all of this issues with Grand Design. I'm so sad to hear this. I bought a 2600RB Travel trailer back in 2016 and had it for 3 years with not one issue and have friends who have purchased travel trailers from them with no issues also. Maybe it's the 5th wheels? They used be really good with their products and workmanship, I wonder what changed.
Wife and I were planning to buy a Grand Design. They do look nice, heck everything does when sitting new on a lot! When I saw the frame with poor and incomplete welds, I walked away. Anyone can watch one YT video and see a good weld vs a bad one. I couldn’t find one good weld on the frames I saw. But not surprising when a company focuses on profits and not the customer and quality. This video really helped us to avoid Grand Design (Winnebago) and not make a mistake like so many others sadly have. Thank you!
I have watched video after video and learned three things. One - dont buy Grand Design. Two - dont buy GD. Three - dont buy GD. I have a 97 Prevost and it has had very very few problems. None are perfect but i have much more faith in older models RVs and even more so in the solid frame of a coach over the plywood and staples that hold new trailers together. Save a lot of money and get a good older RV.
Good job bringing light to this issue. I have a GD Imagine and it has been problem free. I went to trade it and could not believe how much Grand Design quality has gone down. Looking somewhere else.
Liz, you are amazing. You have done a great service for a lot of people. I just wanted to tell you we bought a used 2011 Hartland Big Country 4 years ago. We just love it. It was built back when quality was a big deal. Ours is a very solid built. You can tell how it feels when we pull it and live and work in it. Just wanted to say there was a time when the manufacturers cared. Again thank you for you and your channel. Keep up the good work. Hope to see you on the road. 👍
Yep I live in Indiana and I can attest if your experienced your expendable, especially with people willing to work for minimum wage our State has doubled in population the last 10 years and the roads are like RV parks they'll tear a 4x4 truck up let alone an RV. I hope the Company corrects it for this couple good for them for not letting it ruin their RV experience.
We have a 2023 397 that is experiencing many of the same symptoms as this couple. Ours has been in the shop for almost 4 months. Very discouraging to say tge least. Legal action maybe the best recourse for the many of us that are facing these issues.
Thank you for sharing, my wife and I just bought one, the review’s we received were high and now we are getting all these bad news. We had a Rockwood and the walls were separating from the floor as well, thank God we were able to sell it but we lost money. It is sad that the RV industry are becoming a pain to many of us.
Great discussion. My thoughts exactly. If they can’t engineer and build them correctly, they shouldn’t build them at all. Thank for another great video!
I know. Pay attention if you have squeaky floors or any of the other signs these folks had. The biggest takeaway for me was that the measurement test isn't good enough. You need to have the filon removed so that the area can be inspected. Thanks for watching and stay safe.
This is why I’m keeping my 2010 Keystone fifth wheel. It was never taken in for any warranty work. In 14 years, I’ve only replaced the toilet and water pump. Everything else, works like the day I bought it. 50,000 miles on it and it still looks and works like new. I take it campgrounds that have a 10 year age limit and they don’t even question it.
I've decided to put a camper shell on my truck. While it's not totally comfortable, it's better than sitting out a year waiting for your new RV to get fixed (maybe). Thanks Liz! Hope to see you down the road someday.
I do not presently own a trailer or 5th wheel but have owned 8 RV’s and a slide in over a 40 year period so here’s my opinion . We presently own a 2022 class A Winnebago. I’ve had it three years and 36,000 miles. We had some problems and took it to the FACTORY twice. I was very detailed in my emails and Winnebago stepped up to fix a few issues even after the warranty expired. I suggest folks try to work with the factory to resolve major issues if they can. 40 years in the heavy construction industry , and I am an engineer and know a bit about steel and welded construction. I’ve seen RVs get BIGGER, HEAVIER , and us requiring more amenities over time. I think the industry is using the same grade steel but is using the minimum thicknesses possible to save weight . And Inexperienced welders will definitely impact your rig as well and result in stress cracks. A friend has a Grand Design, larger bumper pull. We were noticing some unusual tire wear, checked his loading and axle models and found the CCC rating was extremely LOW for both. Too low for a trailer this size to be effectively used. In addition to poorer quality control and skimping on effective construction to save weight, the industry does little to inform the buyer how much or little these Rv’s can handle. Overloading by owners is common, not because they want to, but because once you load your necessities in these rigs you might very well be overloaded and stressing the frame or axles, unintentionally causing some of the problems. But not all. We learned the hard way. Our previous rig had frame damage after we loaded way more than the capacity. There is so much to learn about our rigs and channels like this are very helpful in educating folks what this is all about. Thank you
Love your videos and congratulations on the work you do. The industry needs to be held accountable. We owned a used Thor class a motor coach and had so many issues in the first year we were happy to have sold it. Class action suit should be organized against these manufacturers that aren’t being responsible.
Well done video! Although, This is what will force change, I was shopping for a 5th wheel the other day and a Grand Design was presented to me as an option. My response was. Not until I can see how Grand Design handles this problem. Until then, I am looking elsewhere. If they don't support their product. I am not interested.
Hey Liz just a thought. Be careful on how you address these issues. There are people out there that don’t like “Whistle blowers” and they have ppl that can intimidate you. With you being alone and are doing these types of videos. Please install security cameras on the outside of your rv. So you are safe. I’d consider possibly caring a weapon with you and or some pepper spray. Just please be careful. You are a great person helping people out. That is awesome that you help these people with RV issues. Take YOUR RV into a reputable dealer. And after servicing I’d check everything out before you head out. Like I said just a thought for your safety.😊😊 Be Safe, and have fun.
Thanks for your concern. In last week's video I shared that I sold my distinctive motorhome and am now flying under the radar. No threats, just want to sleep peacefully at night. And thank you so much for your support!
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A weapon? Come on dude, you're watching too much TV
The lack of industry concern over quality appears to be widespread throughout not just rv but the lack of civil society. I have a class 8 tractor trailer and the loss of reality in business acumen has been replaced by delusion. The former road standards have fallen, which has caused manufactures to have to place heavier suspension, etc, components on their vehicles. However, it's my opinion that logic has been replaced by emotion. Emotion dosent build or maintain a customer base or tax base to maintain a civil society. Feel free to be able to defend yourself in all spectrums.. we are, unfortunately, in that spectrum.
“The frames are too light”, “The welds are bad”. Can you take the shell off the Frame? How much weight will a new frame weigh compared to the existing one? If you replace the frame, will the unit still be road worthy and will your truck handle the weight? All good questions to consider if you do replace the frame with a custom built one.
I think that would be cost prohibitive. We are concerned about the viability of the repair. It's been a struggle for us in this decision process. Thanks for your input.
@@Patrick_Armendarez I agree it is a hard decision, especially when you do not have at hand cost comparisons. I understood from your video that you both like the layout and features. But looking at the pictures of the frame damage throughout, what is the market value of the trailer as-is? Is it financially better to sell it on or to do a major fix? If you knew those two numbers, what would be the decision then? I’d create the as-built layout for the frame and substitute steel with aluminum, then get a fabricator to price the build. The entire shell is detachable as that is how it was made then put on the frame. If the loss equals the cost of rebuilding, it’s a zero sum game, and the decision is then whether it is worth it to you to go through the process. Good luck sir.
I use too work at a mobile home factory in the floor department and attached the floor to the frame with lag bolts, no excuse for missing bolts! "KEEP ON KEEPIN ON"
I watch eagerly for your videos, and am keeping a diary of brands with specific problems … while trying to be patient on feeling confident I will find the right rig. Thank you for doing the scut work so those of us who want to get out there can understand the risks and rewards. Thanks, Liz! This was a particularly fair video with lots of visuals to support issues.
Good luck in your RV search, Deborah. Definitely consider getting a used unit. Not a good time to buy new, but trailers and fifth wheels built in 2018 and before tend to be well-built. The motorhome sweet spot is 2002 to 2008. Whatever you buy, join the Facebook group of the model to get the scoop from owners. And always get an inspection. Another advantage of buying used is the seller has typically gotten the kinks out. Thanks for watching. For more about what to buy used see my recent video: th-cam.com/video/JSo5n2B62MA/w-d-xo.html
For the last 4 or so years, the TH-cam people as a majority all purchased GDs. We did not because we did not like the floor plans. GD are not the only ones.
Your videos Liz are eye open for all those who want to go RV traveling theses days, I hope people do their homework before buying anything, as always Liz your videos will help people on how to choose the right RV let alone be very informed how to go about this adventure in life, thank you for your hard work on this Liz , your Beautiful! You guys stay safe out there!
The Federal Aviation Administration has strict certification regarding aircraft construction. Why don’t any of the federal highway, traffic safety, automobile safety truck trailer, DOT agencies that regulate car and truck construction care about travel trailers falling apart on the highway which most certainly can cause serious injuries or loss of life?
First, I feel for anyone having this issue. For our new purchase. This is exactly why we put a cap on Fifth Wheel Length, No Drop Frames, use a mid frame. We sold our two motorcycles, my wife did not want to sell her RE GT 535 nor myself my WideGlide. Like many a toy hauler is not ever happening. We settled on our mid frame Brinkley Z3100 and are full time. Like all RV’s even Brinkley has the little issues. But cannot agree with this video enough, do your research. And…. Just stay away from the big drop frame fifth wheels
Based on this story, I've decided not to spend my hard earned money to buy a new Winnebago Navion. I will look for a company who gives a "hard Yes" to their customers. Thank you for helping this couple tell their story!
I agree with what you said in a prior video....states need to legislate a law which regulates this industry. Otherwise, nothing will change. Thank you for advocating, Liz!
I just purchased a 2020 ATC 4023 toy hauler which is built on an aluminum frame with an aluminum superstructure. The previous owner is a mechanical engineer and has towed it 14k miles without any structural issues. It has no slides, no leaks and so far after towing it halfway across the country I feel confident it will outlast me. I have owned a number of RV's and learned my lesson the hard way. Less is more. My last nightmare was a 2016 Montana with 5 slides and boy was I happy when that POS was sold.
Hi Steve, Not a good time to buy new, but trailers and fifth wheels built in 2018 and before tend to be well-built. The motorhome sweet spot is 2002 to 2008. Whatever you buy, join the Facebook group of the model to get the scoop from owners. And always get an inspection. Another advantage of buying used is the seller has typically gotten the kinks out. Thanks for watching. For more about what to buy used see my recent video: th-cam.com/video/JSo5n2B62MA/w-d-xo.html I hope to see you out here!!
That Really Sucks, We moved from a Truck and 5th wheel to go into a Class A. We have had our class A for almost 2 years, have only been able to go out in (2) trips and its been down ever since. We didn't buy new on the class A though, but who would of thought with only 30k miles it would have issues. I never wanted to get rid of my truck and fifth wheel , and everything i told my wife would go wrong has lol. You know what they say "RV" stands for Ruined Vacation. Sorry to hear your story but it is good to get this out there so people hear this. Hope you folks get your issues taken care of.
Whew! I found it interesting that their frame passed the measurement test, but then still had a broken frame in several places. If you have any of the signs: squeaky floors, doors that won't close or stay closed, things out of line, then do take it in and insist they peal off the filon and look under the pin box. That said, glad that everything is well with yours! Thanks for watching.
I had the frame crack problem, 2010 heartland cyclone 3950. Took it back to Indiana, lippert came to dealership and repaired frame, after walls were removed. 1 week later we brought it back to Arkansas. With a lifetime warranty on repairs. So far so good.
I did think highly of Grand Design but not no more. This is not the first video you have done Lisa regarding them. Best thing for us is look for preowned models and not Grand Design.
Nice job, nice video. The squeaky floors and nails pushing up through the vinyl was something I forgot to add to our video for our 395MS. The communication problem is the same for us. Good folks, easy to contact, zero content. Prayers for a good outcome.
Thanks for posting your content Liz, I have a 2003 Thor Toy hauler with NO problems. All my camping group has all the latest rigs that look amazing and I often contemplate upgrading. BUT all of them have issues even my buds new coach he paid over $250k. Screw all that, Im gonna dump money into an interior make over. so what if the exterior is not all fancy with graphics. Hope all people do homework before buying these things.
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Liz, Thank you for your videos......
After watching them I've made my decision...With my residential construction / automotive background, and my current job as an industrial mechanic, electronics tech.....I'm building my own RV.
From the ground up.
Thanks Again!
I designed a RV due to my 20+ years repairing them that would solve 90% of the issues you show. It didn't take my engineering degree to figure it out, only common sense. Even though my methods would save the RV industry millions, they are so corrupt they can't even consider it.
Don't ever buy rv. Cargo trailer and build it out..
We full-timed. But now when I see rigs going down the road, I shudder every time I see them. I'm just shocked how long it's taking for this to go into a class action suit - Lippert and Grand design need to be held accountable!
Only thing is Lipert is building what grand design ordered
Liz you have really saved me from making HORRIBLE mistakes with bad uninformed choices. Thank God there’s somebody speaking up for those of us that are buying these units!
Thanks so much, I sure appreciate your support!
Totally agree. It just isnt right that many RV makers are selling product with defects, and not standing behind their crappy made RV's. Especially when steel frames are breaking in half. There should be a law to protect the consumers. If I spent over 100K and the frame broke, and the maker of that RV refused to fix it, I would hire a good lawyer. Plus who ever else would go after them.
Just wait for the technician to get off of work and follow home. Buy him/her a 12 pack and ask all the questions you like with no intervention from management. There I fixed it for ya 👍
"I reached to the head of customer relations at Winnebago, which owns Grand Design, plus my contacts at Grand Design customer service. So far the response I've gotten from them is a hard NO."
That's all I needed to hear when it comes to who NOT to do business with. Keep up the OUTSTANDING work, Liz. Keep bringing the truth and eventually the market will implode on these businesses with abhorrent customer service and products.
Thanks for this! I've worked with a lot of other RV mfrs, as you know, and this is the first time I've gotten a response like this. Now that the video is out I am hoping they change their stance. Thanks for watching and I will keep you posted.
No wonder Grand Design is crap, crap making crap.Blind leading the blind.
All these stories, Grand Design would do better just fixing these.
I've been researching RV's for a year or so now. I can guarantee you that I wouldn't give a nickle to any Winnebago affiliated company if this is the way they treat customers.
Hey Liz. WOW, I have a Grand Design and have not had any issues with the frame flexing (knock on wood) but I will keep a lookout for problems. I have some advice for Grand Design and Lippor. You need to nip this in the bud NOW. I forsee a class action and a host of BAD press coming your way. You can be proactive or reactive gentelmen, which do you think is good for your company? Safe travels and keep up the pressure...
Everyone needs to get in touch with their state representatives and push for rv lemon laws that will hold all rv brands accountable for the junk they produce and push on unsuspecting buyers. This is the only way to force manufacturers to build to a standard and improve quality control.
The RV manufacturers have already bought most of the state legislatures !
Some people don't want the government involved, until they have a problem?
Yes!!
Great idea
A guy I worked with retired and wanted a RV to be his home. That guy read and watched hundreds of hours of RV videos. He even went to Elkhart Indiana to where a lot of RV's are built. He told me that the materials and quality of workmanship on RV's was a joke.
So true!
"a guy". Well then it must be true.
RVs are underbuilt and not road-worthy in general. They're only engineered to remain stationary.
This couple seem reasonable and are able articulate the issues very well. Shame on Grand Design (aka: Winnebago). I own a Grand Design, 2016, and no problems BUT NOW I AM SO EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED AND EMBARRASSED IN GRAND DESIGN. Shame on Lippert for sending out their RV frames that are unsafe! I think Grand Design needs to hire a flatbed truck and pick up this Momentum and take it to Indiana and FIX IT. GRAND DESIGN, WHERE IS YOUR INTEGRITY?
I agree that GD needs to take this rig back, but logistically it's not possible to put a big toy hauler like that on a flat bed due to bridge height restrictions. GD should just buy out this couple and then scrap the rig in place.
Im not defending lippert. But they build frames to the customer specs.
I agree that Lippert should bare some responsibility. I personally would not make frames that anyone designs that are not holding up to the weight and construction
I’m so so disappointed in hearing this. We just bought a 2024 Grand Design last November. In our research and shopping we eliminated one manufacturer at a time…and landed with only Grand Design left. When we have worked our whole careers as teachers, we are not wealthy people and spending this kind of money on an RV is MASSIVE for us. We have a Reflection 337 RLS and have only had it out twice so far. I hope we don’t have to become unpleasant to get things done with the minor things we are already seeing…oven not working…and leaky seal in the bedroom slide. So far Grand Design has told us they absolutely will replace the seal and do whatever needs to happen to get the oven working. Crossed fingers that our dealer will have our backs. Best of luck with your Momentum…
@janetswope5695 Janet it's a major problem study up on it as much as possible. It has affected other manufacturers in the luxury fifthwheel market and in the cheap pull behinds too. I will pull mine with my Kenworth t680 . I will also keep it as light as possible. I've noticed a majority of the ones on you tube had full-time heavily loaded trls. My 2 cent worth. Road conditions also play (as a retired 4 million mile trucker opinion) a major factor also. Slow down on bridges with rough on an off where thr trl bounces. That's major flex right there. I'm in same boat as yall just use common sense and maybe we get through this.
The audacity of Grand Design or Winnebago to say they won’t fix it !!
I know it. I will keep pushing and hopefully that will change. Thanks for watching and stay tuned.
Hell, just JB WELD those cracks. RV plants can't do any better.
That’s exactly what I thought. I think Grand Design went DOWN HILL when Winnebago bought them out.
If those photos are of a 3 year old unit then clearly they know what the actual issue is. There should not be rust on a relatively new unit. As far as shoddy welding, you gets what you pay for. As using cheaper steel may also contribute to weld penetration and over longevity of the frame. Class action lawsuits may be in your future
Sadly no one is grateful for your purchase anymore regardless of the cost. Its like retailers seem to think they are the ones doing us a favor 🤔
The best day we had with our RV was when we sold it. It’s not just DG. It’s a lot of manufacturers who just don’t care to dealers who know they’re selling junk! Never again.
This guy hit the nail on the head, how did Honda, Toyota, Datsun, Volkswagen, et al get their foot in the door? The crap that was coming out of Detroit is how. The very same thing could easily happen in the RV industry, and they'll have no one to blame but themselves.
Indeed. Let's hope it happens to get them to straighten up. Thanks for watching
Nice idea but how much foreign competition is in the RV market? Looks almost non-existent to me.
@@LizAmazing Idaho would be a great location for a quality RV trailer frame manufacturer to start business. This State used to have some well known brands of RVs made here. Dunno how or why the industry has concentrated in Elkhart Indiana. Cheap Amish labor?
Exactly.
@@njcanuck that is the problem! No other place has these crazy large RVs already. No competition and they buy each other out.
Liz, your honest channel has helped me realize that RV life is not for me. Most of these vehicles are junk. I love road trips but I am quite happy staying at hotels along the way. A vacation should be stress free. RV life does not appear to be.
Sorry to hear that, David. Not a good time to buy new, but trailers and fifth wheels built in 2018 and before tend to be well-built. The motorhome sweet spot is 2002 to 2008. Whatever you buy, join the Facebook group of the model to get the scoop from owners. And always get an inspection. Another advantage of buying used is the seller has typically gotten the kinks out. Thanks for watching. For more about what to buy used see my recent video: th-cam.com/video/JSo5n2B62MA/w-d-xo.html
@user-rr7bv6my4e I think one of those Mercedes vans with a rear bathroom would be the closest thing, it when I do the math and consider their upfront cost, MPG, Insurance, storage cost, maintenance, etc. I could take a lot of trips staying nightly in a Hampton Inn before I would even approach the cost of the Mercedes Van.
@@davidwelty9763 Yup, and you can hop on a plane and travel to different countries.
Younger and with less time to travel (I now realize what a hell life it was, subsisting on two weeks vacation each year), we did hotels. Apparently, that was a time when they were cleaner, safer and people had manners.
Now? Nope. Our 2011 Coachmen Class C. We only had one real mechanical problem: the wire harness controlling the slide fell onto a wheel and was shredded. Other than that, it has been a dream to travel in.
Any problems with the RV came from people: during COVID, it was in storage while we sheltered in a condo. Poor Arvee. Broken into, trashed interior, looks like they took a crowbar to the outside, then the &$#( people stole the catalytic convertor. Progressive RV insurance paid for the catalytic convertor, but the exterior damage? They paid a pittance.
We've done hotel stays while consulting health specialists and hated .. haaaated ... it.
I would recommend people take a look at Northwood Campers (Arctic Fox, Nash, and Outdoors RV). They make their own frames in-house specific to each model and don't have the frame failure issues of the mass produced crap coming out of Indiana. The biggest draw back with them is they are Pacific Northwest based (and hard to find in the Eastern part of the U.S.) and heavier than campers of the same size because they are well-built and well insulated, true 4-season campers.
We have a Nash and am so grateful. It’s our 4th trailer ~ we are very happy with it.
Totally agree
Stories like yours have been a major driver of my decision to have nothing to do with RVing. I'm a Pro craftsman and can fix anything, but I won't work with junk. The industry clearly has lost sight of the basic in business...make a quality product, serve your customers, make them happy, keep them happy...that equals repeat business and success as a person and in business.
Sorry to hear that. Not a good time to buy new, but trailers and fifth wheels built in 2018 and before tend to be well-built. The motorhome sweet spot is 2002 to 2008. Whatever you buy, join the Facebook group of the model to get the scoop from owners. And always get an inspection. Another advantage of buying used is the seller has typically gotten the kinks out. Thanks for watching. For more about what to buy used see my recent video: th-cam.com/video/JSo5n2B62MA/w-d-xo.html
@@LizAmazing 100% true. Don’t buy new. As you know Liz, we bought our Grand Design, Reflection (5th wheel), in 2016 and it’s solid. Sometimes I think about upgrading to a newer RV, and then I come to my senses!
Nobody has to buy this new junk. There were some manufacturers back in the day who did good work. You have to do your research to find out which ones were good. Those are the ones on our short list. I've researched for years.
@@LizAmazingListen to Liz,I bought a 2004 Bounder,gas,35' and it's built nice and strong,13,900 miles on it, just broke in, cheap wallpaper the biggest complaint 😅
There’s a saying in the auto sales industry. “The last thing you want to do is take one of your customers and make them somebody else’s customer.”
And that’s exactly what every dealer and manufacturer in the RV business is doing.
Thank you.Liz My question to you is. Instead of going to the manufacturer again for answers. What do you think of going to a federal watchdog group or agency or even the Dept of transportation with this video? for sure. As we know these trailers and the bad frames are a danger to the driver and the public being on the road. Think of sharing this video to Pete Buttigieg head of Dept of Transportation
that's a good idea.
Thank you Liz for advocating for consumers!
Thanks for being here!
This is truly sad that a company has been presented, with irrefutable proof, that their product is failing at an alarmingly high rate. I guarantee they have consulted with their lawyers as to how to defend & deflect this issue. They dont want to admit there is a severe safety issue here. If & when somebody dies due to this, they'll most likely file for bankruptcy to avoid paying any judgements. Time will tell.
We have a Grand Design 376TH. 2019. Our driver side wall on the RV sagged due to frame failure. We fixed ourselves. I don’t know why anyone going forward would consider a GD seeing how customer service has handled this major frame issue across so many of their rigs. I never will. Thank you for bringing issues to light. So many are unaware. The 397 across from us had the GD SRT here tacking it together and it’s headed back to factory for frame repair.
Bummer! So sorry!
I have an 18 376th, before mid year refresh that added the morryde steps. I haven't had any issues aside from leaf springs. What section of the rig had failure? The outriggers in the kitchen area, or up in the living room?
@@smirnoff242 about half way back on the kitchen slide to the mid tire area. The triangle frame gussets are flat aft of the fridge. Those fold and fail. I believe not supported well for washer dryer and pantry weight. This has been an issue on several 376 units. Not all. However the potential is there on all. At least 2019 and earlier for sure.
@@tadblankenbaker4587 good to know. Yeah the super wide body with the outriggers doesn't seem like it could support too much weight
@@tadblankenbaker4587 I have a 2019, 376 and so far it's been ok with the frame issue you describe. I have about 20k miles on my rig also. My problem has been with my passenger side front slide as I detailed above.
I first heard of this problem back in 2018. A couple friends of mine were fighting with Lippert to fix it way back then. The manufacturer is well aware of this problem and has been for a long time.
This couple should never have to go through this like others have. Your insider with the statement on welding is eye opening. I find it sad that the truckers and auto manufacturers have to jump through hoops to be safe and yet another unit that travels the us highways has no oversight.
Go to big truck big rv for frame plant tour videos and testing that goes into the frames. He has a whole series on it
I’m becoming convinced after watching and listening to these stories, that none of the RV manufacturing companies have mastered the art of building a quality rig today. However, Liz you are a great communicator and spokesperson for rv’ers.
The high end motorhomes (we can't afford) do well but all of rigs below $500K use the buyers as beta testers. A great product lawyer in the northwest said, "Do not buy an RV." To those of us without real cash it means buy an older rv that has everything fixed. Since 84' Foretravel has committed to quality first, Texas.
Thanks for what you’re doing to help those who feel they have nowhere to turn. God bless. ❤🙏
You are so welcome, Greg, glad to be making a difference! Thanks for watching
This man has remarkable composure, as does his wife!FMVSS needs to get involved with RVs as human safety is at risk.
Watched my father survive Korean & Vietnam war and enjoy his Holiday Rambler many years. It is terribly distressing to see the industry overall makes junk now. Saw an older Holiday yesterday while walking. Just stood and admired the solid construction.
You two fine people deserved.
better!
This channel and Wingman do great work helping people!
God Bless you All!
Keep up the good work. Your the best voice out there for the RV consumer.
Thanks so very much, Mike!
Another thing is that many of these folks are retired and I think manufacturers are thinking "Oh dollar signs so we'll build this thing as cheap as we can to have stockholder returns that are high". In other words, they're taking advantage of people who are retired just for the money.
It's very short sighted of them to not put customers first. Thanks for watching
I have a 46 year old Apollo mh I use all the time nothing falls off very well built no leaks better than anything built lately
Went to the FMCA Convention in Tucson last week. Thousands of RVs from all over. There was a little RV diagnostic company among the vendors in the exhibit hall. They had a line out the door, hundreds of people all day long for four days. All looking to get a report on their RV problem that they could take to their dealer, manufacturer, or mechanic when they got back home.
Never seen anything like this at any car, truck, or boat show -- ever. Shocking. As a consumer, I suppose the only way to go at this is to buy used... pre-Covid used. Even better, 2005-2010 used. And even then, given the repeated RV problems with slides and frames, maybe it's best to travel via Amtrak bedrooms, nice old hotels, and rent a car here and there as you go. With today's RV prices, you would save a lot of money just avoiding them altogether.
My road trip experiences told me that I should never follow a 5th wheel or stay close by, especially these newer ones. They will blow up, shred into pieces and eventually put other drivers at risk as well. I got stuck on I-5 in Oregon for 5 hours because of that. Both the 5th wheel and the tow truck were in pieces on the FWY. SAD.
What a lovely down to earth couple. It just blows the mind how these companies are able to continue selling models with serious defects that could pose a threat to human safety. There is no question that a significantly compromised frame presents a dangerous condition. It’s just outrageous given these are huge units intended and approved for interstate travel. If these were automobile frames or even tricycles with a faulty weld on the back step, there would be a stop sale order and recall!
Yes. This is a disaster waiting to happen. I hope this gets resolved soon, for everyone. Thanks for watching
And/or a class action lawsuit that would require the manufacturers to take accountability.
They just don't care anymore
One thing they really need to do is hire an independent NRVIA certified inspector to inspect their toy hauler BEFORE it goes back to Grand Design. Get everything identified in a written report that they can give to Grand Design.
Apparently it's not going back to Grand Design. They're refusing to take it back to the factory, even just to repair it.
G-D is really shooting themselves in the foot.
@@Milesco omg are you sure GD is refusing to repair it that's so bad
Great work Liz. The most important part of this video his the communication from your confidential informant at Lippert. I hope you'll do a whole video about that. I think this is much bigger than outrage on TH-cam. This needs to be on 60 Minutes or another high profile media exposure. People's lives are literally at risk. One of these big RVs could literally come apart on the highway endangering many people.
My experience with RV dealers is they don’t stand behind what they sell. / Basically, there is no service after the sale.
That's because there are a bunch of kids pretending to actually be some sort of technician working at these dealers
I don't know how one of these things could be built to withstand driving down interstates and random roads. I mean it would be like a house being shaken for 8 hours a day. I agree they are junk, but even built well I don't se how a bouncing house no matter how well built can last.
Liz , I'm so sorry for these two people and all the problems they are having with there Grand Design motorhome. My wife and I have been thinking of purchasing a motorhome. We have a Class A 40' but she can't drive this large motorhome. We were thinking of a Grand Design because everyone has talked so Great about there product. Well after seeing this video I can say we will have to consider other options. If they will not step up for a new product having a factory defective frame. I know we could never trust there product. If I was treated like them I can honestly say I would be in jail by now. I wish you well and hope you can help resolve this problem for them in some say. Thanks for all you do to help others .
Wow, this is crazy. These RV's are NOT safe. I don't think they can be "fixed", that's why there's resistance to admit there's a problem. Once the RV is built on the frame you can't fix the frame without disassembling the entire RV.
Liz, good on you for bringing your influence to bear on behalf of the otherwise small voices. Though I don't currently have an RV/camper, I have owned a slide-in camper and a 25-foot travel trailer in the past and have been considering jumping back into the market. Your videos have really given me something to think about, and if we do get another rig, we will only reward the manufacturers and dealers that have shown some integrity over these admittedly difficult covid years. Keep on truckin'!
I'm so sorry for your situation. Wife and I had wanted to do the RV life when we both retired but I ended up with the Cancer bug so money had to go elsewhere, but I kept thinking of what would have happened if we had purchased an RV just prior to my annoying illness. For one, if it had the defaults like yours had, it would be hard for me to pass it on to another when I got sick. Just couldn't do it. Also, if my C thing would have killed me, my wife would have been stuck trying to sell a defective RV. So many people in the same boat as we would have been.
I pray for you that your nightmare is over and you've made them take the RV back and you've found a replacement that is solid and what you wanted
Let us know, how it turned out.
Thank you and prayers your way
Great video Liz. Keep it going. Inspectors is not the best way to go. Watch other videos. They don’t take apart the rv. They can only see what’s exposed. The big problem here is Indiana attorney general gets a lot of money from the lobbyist. It’s no secret, it’s on TH-cam. Something needs to be done with any trailer that people worked hard to buy. It’s no joke
I know. There are no easy answers. And an inspector is not going to be able to take it apart and see the frame problems, unfortunately. Thanks for watching.
There is a good 3 part youtube series on Lippert frame manufacturing, The use US made steel and most of the welding is done by robot. If you have frame questions watch them. Also I would guess 70 to 80% of the trucks towing a fifth wheel are overloaded on the rear axel.
I watched the videos. What I recall was the I-beams being welded by a robot. They still had 600 welders on the line making even more welds. They run 1000 frames through a day. If there are 100 welds per unit (just a guess), that is 12000 welds being done a day that are not robotic. If your people are not highly trained welders then you can expect some workmanship issues
It seems to me Lippert engineers design and make the frame according to Grand Designs Specifications. I have heard that where these issues start coming up is when Grand Designs deviates from its original design plan that it submitted to Lippert engineers for approval. I’m no engineer but I would think that any and all deviations from the original specifications should in fact go back to Lippert engineers for approval.
It’s sad to see Ram recall close to a million or so trucks all for a an emissions not safety related issue but yet there’s no one who’s got the back of these 5th wheel owners? I’d hate to see someone have to lose their life or seriously injured in an accident caused by a 5th wheel for things to change. Remember it’s not just 5th wheel owners out on the roads. All of us including our children and loved ones could be affected.
Thanks again Liz for allowing others a place to voice their concerns.
Liz, your videos have changed my mind 180 degrees about buying/owning a RV. To spend that much money and have so many significant issues, it’s not worth it.
Has anyone contacted the Indiana Attorney General? Winnebago’s response is totally unacceptable.
The AG is probably one of the first public offices the RV manufacturers bought off !!!
@@whereyougoiwillgorving4492 Todd Rokita seems legit.
@@whereyougoiwillgorving4492 that wasn’t their question.
The road does lead through Indiana as the RV buyer of most RVs agree on purchase to abide by laws of that state when it comes to warranty work that needs to change and to my knowledge only California is putting pressure on the manufacturer to change this@@WinePunk
Why will the AG enjoy special homosexual rights when they won't accept Trump's stand on illegal mexicans ?
that damage looks like metal fatigue stress fractures from sub-par cheap metal framing! could splint weld it with heavy duty metal plates... BUT you should not have to do this on a new RV
I've seen numerous videos where RV owners have had numerous problems with Lippert products. Not just frames but leveling jacks and even steps. I just saw a video a couple of days ago where a guy bought a bumper pull to take hemis family on a vacation to Alaska while traveling through some road construction the tongue folded up on the trailer. The manufacturer blamed it on him taking the trailer off road. While doing his research to try and get someone to repair his trailer he found that there were numerous trailers with bent tongues. All manufactured by Lippert. The problem stems from them not using a heavy enough guage steel for the tongue
Oh my goodness. I've heard about those bent tongues. What a nightmare for Lippert. I hope they do the right things.
you are indeed amazing, Liz. You are doung a great job with your very professional videos! Hello from your friends Brook & Wolfie
Hi you two! I hope you are enjoying life, big hugs!
Here is one idea for you. Get all the ones with an issue, organize a caravan to show up at Grand Design service(make it big a long) with banners etc. And call all the media, tv news, and you’ll see how quick they will take action
Oh wonder, what happened that you sold your RV and decided to go underground? Did you received any threats ?
No threats. I had an RV mfr try to buy me in exchange for not posting a video. That got me thinking that what I am doing is really making an impact. I wasn't concerned at the mfr level, more so on the dealer level. I don't want to worry about some half crazed salesman wanting to slash my tires. I know it was a long shot but I didn't want to wait until it became obvious that I need to be incognito. So now I'm flying under the radar. Thanks for your support, and that's a great idea about the caravan. Stay tuned!
Am sure the "they ," will steer clear ,cause we know who "they " are and of course you have cameras etc.. 👍🌹😊
@@LizAmazingWow! Thanks for posting all those details. Not sure if you’ve mentioned this level of detail in any recent videos, but please do. We all have so much respect for your work and not being “bought off” from a mfg just makes me respect your integrity and character even more. Please keep doing what you’re doing- we need you out there! - from a full-timer since 2012 and in our 3rd beloved Keystone Alpine 5th wheel made in 2017.
@@LizAmazing dear liz yes me again any time you need to be kept safe and under the radar i can lend you my guard dog fifi she is very very brave all, she isn't aware that she is a chihuahua and a teacup size beast from hell she thinks she is the same size as a horned bull just don't get your lip near hers or she will take it off
blessing to you from autralia
oops that should have spelled australia
Liz, thank you so much for making these videos. Knowing these facts, anyone who buys a grand design at this point with these issues has no one to blame but themselves.
Short answer to these issues....don't buy new! There are a lot of used rigs out there for sale, find one whose owners have aged out and want to sell. Don't buy one that is made after 2018. Mine is a 2006 and it's been wonderful.....within reason! Get an inspection done before you lay any money out. LOOK UNDERNEATH THE RIG!!! Buying used means you may not get all the bells and whistles you want. Isn't it more important to have a safe and sturdy RV than one with 3 slides and a fireplace??? Unless you have more money than sense, think about what I just told you folks. Good luck and happy trails!!!
So sad the retired couple bought the rig and wanted to enjoy their life but ended up suffering from the nightmare. Thanks Liz for sharing the story which is a warning to other potential buyers.
Indeed. Not a good time to buy new, but trailers and fifth wheels built in 2018 and before tend to be well-built. The motorhome sweet spot is 2002 to 2008. Whatever you buy, join the Facebook group of the model to get the scoop from owners. And always get an inspection. Another advantage of buying used is the seller has typically gotten the kinks out. Thanks for watching. For more about what to buy used see my recent video: th-cam.com/video/JSo5n2B62MA/w-d-xo.html
This is where I believe the lemon law should be added to rvs. If it was, the industry would worry more about the product they put out and not just the money they get upfront.
I hate that so many people are going thru this. I bought my Keystone Mini a little over a year ago , and have had great luck with it. The reason - its a 2018 { pre covid} Its also light weight which doesn't seem to have the frame issues that the bigger rigs have. Before every trip I crawl under ,,inspect every weld, and with a 4' straight edge check every inch of the frame. I also did this before I bought it. Before buying I also brought along a ladder and inspected the roof. So far so good but buyer beware.
Seems if theres a safety issue, maybe Highway Patrol, DOT, etc. Should be notified.
I'm shocked to hear all of this issues with Grand Design. I'm so sad to hear this. I bought a 2600RB Travel trailer back in 2016 and had it for 3 years with not one issue and have friends who have purchased travel trailers from them with no issues also. Maybe it's the 5th wheels? They used be really good with their products and workmanship, I wonder what changed.
32 years manufacturing welding. If the metal is cracked it not the welding it the engineering. Probably add some 10 gauge to my travel trailer
Wife and I were planning to buy a Grand Design. They do look nice, heck everything does when sitting new on a lot! When I saw the frame with poor and incomplete welds, I walked away. Anyone can watch one YT video and see a good weld vs a bad one. I couldn’t find one good weld on the frames I saw. But not surprising when a company focuses on profits and not the customer and quality. This video really helped us to avoid Grand Design (Winnebago) and not make a mistake like so many others sadly have. Thank you!
I have watched video after video and learned three things. One - dont buy Grand Design. Two - dont buy GD. Three - dont buy GD. I have a 97 Prevost and it has had very very few problems. None are perfect but i have much more faith in older models RVs and even more so in the solid frame of a coach over the plywood and staples that hold new trailers together. Save a lot of money and get a good older RV.
Good job bringing light to this issue. I have a GD Imagine and it has been problem free. I went to trade it and could not believe how much Grand Design quality has gone down. Looking somewhere else.
Thanks for all your help with education about these rolling accidents to be.
You are so welcome. Yes, there are no doubt many unsafe units on the road. So scary. Thanks for watching.
Liz, you are amazing. You have done a great service for a lot of people. I just wanted to tell you we bought a used 2011 Hartland Big Country 4 years ago. We just love it. It was built back when quality was a big deal. Ours is a very solid built. You can tell how it feels when we pull it and live and work in it. Just wanted to say there was a time when the manufacturers cared. Again thank you for you and your channel. Keep up the good work. Hope to see you on the road. 👍
Thanks for sharing this, John. Oldies but goodies are the way to go these days! Enjoy that Big Country!
again I want to say thank you for what you are doing.
Aww, thanks Darryl. It feels good to be using my channel to help people. Thanks for being here!
Yep I live in Indiana and I can attest if your experienced your expendable, especially with people willing to work for minimum wage our State has doubled in population the last 10 years and the roads are like RV parks they'll tear a 4x4 truck up let alone an RV. I hope the Company corrects it for this couple good for them for not letting it ruin their RV experience.
Yes, I hope this is a wakeup call for Grand Design. Thanks for watching and stay tuned for the update.
We have a 2023 397 that is experiencing many of the same symptoms as this couple. Ours has been in the shop for almost 4 months. Very discouraging to say tge least. Legal action maybe the best recourse for the many of us that are facing these issues.
Oh goodness, I am so sorry you are going through this, too, Don. Thanks for your comment and I hope you get some relief soon.
So sorry you are going through this. We clearly know how you feel.
Class action suit, if you can find others.
Thank you for sharing, my wife and I just bought one, the review’s we received were high and now we are getting all these bad news.
We had a Rockwood and the walls were separating from the floor as well, thank God we were able to sell it but we lost money.
It is sad that the RV industry are becoming a pain to many of us.
It sure is! I hope this video series has the industry sitting up and taking notice. Thanks for watching and stay tuned for the update.
Great discussion. My thoughts exactly. If they can’t engineer and build them correctly, they shouldn’t build them at all. Thank for another great video!
Thanks Bob! Stay tuned for a follow up on this!
Wow! the hita just keep on coming, Liz you're doing a great service to the regular people!
We have a 2020 Grand Design Solitude, love it but hope we don’t have any frame issues ever!! Good Luck
I know. Pay attention if you have squeaky floors or any of the other signs these folks had. The biggest takeaway for me was that the measurement test isn't good enough. You need to have the filon removed so that the area can be inspected. Thanks for watching and stay safe.
This is why I’m keeping my 2010 Keystone fifth wheel. It was never taken in for any warranty work. In 14 years, I’ve only replaced the toilet and water pump. Everything else, works like the day I bought it. 50,000 miles on it and it still looks and works like new. I take it campgrounds that have a 10 year age limit and they don’t even question it.
This is unbelievable!! I'm so sorry your going through this
I've decided to put a camper shell on my truck. While it's not totally comfortable, it's better than sitting out a year waiting for your new RV to get fixed (maybe). Thanks Liz! Hope to see you down the road someday.
We’re dreaming of a truck camper - there’s some really nice ones out there now. Have fun and good luck!
Keep up the good work Liz that was the worst frame I’ve seen yet I hope that couple gets their trailer sorted out thanks again have a great weekend
I do not presently own a trailer or 5th wheel but have owned 8 RV’s and a slide in over a 40 year period so here’s my opinion . We presently own a 2022 class A Winnebago. I’ve had it three years and 36,000 miles. We had some problems and took it to the FACTORY twice. I was very detailed in my emails and Winnebago stepped up to fix a few issues even after the warranty expired. I suggest folks try to work with the factory to resolve major issues if they can.
40 years in the heavy construction industry , and I am an engineer and know a bit about steel and welded construction.
I’ve seen RVs get BIGGER, HEAVIER , and us requiring more amenities over time.
I think the industry is using the same grade steel but is using the minimum thicknesses possible to save weight . And Inexperienced welders will definitely impact your rig as well and result in stress cracks.
A friend has a Grand Design, larger bumper pull. We were noticing some unusual tire wear, checked his loading and axle models and found the CCC rating was extremely LOW for both. Too low for a trailer this size to be effectively used.
In addition to poorer quality control and skimping on effective construction to save weight, the industry does little to inform the buyer how much or little these Rv’s can handle. Overloading by owners is common, not because they want to, but because once you load your necessities in these rigs you might very well be overloaded and stressing the frame or axles, unintentionally causing some of the problems. But not all.
We learned the hard way. Our previous rig had frame damage after we loaded way more than the capacity.
There is so much to learn about our rigs and channels like this are very helpful in educating folks what this is all about.
Thank you
Thank you so much for sharing this, eye opening for sure.
Wow I was actually considering Grand Design! Wow incredible the negligence and audacity to sell this to folks. The industry is malignant.
I sure hope Grand Design reconsiders. Thanks for watching and stay tuned.
Love your videos and congratulations on the work you do. The industry needs to be held accountable. We owned a used Thor class a motor coach and had so many issues in the first year we were happy to have sold it. Class action suit should be organized against these manufacturers that aren’t being responsible.
Grand Design doesn't stand behind their products - good to know. Saves me from making a very costly mistake.
Well done video! Although, This is what will force change, I was shopping for a 5th wheel the other day and a Grand Design was presented to me as an option. My response was. Not until I can see how Grand Design handles this problem. Until then, I am looking elsewhere. If they don't support their product. I am not interested.
Hey Liz just a thought. Be careful on how you address these issues. There are people out there that don’t like “Whistle blowers” and they have ppl that can intimidate you. With you being alone and are doing these types of videos. Please install security cameras on the outside of your rv. So you are safe. I’d consider possibly caring a weapon with you and or some pepper spray. Just please be careful. You are a great person helping people out. That is awesome that you help these people with RV issues. Take YOUR RV into a reputable dealer. And after servicing I’d check everything out before you head out. Like I said just a thought for your safety.😊😊 Be Safe, and have fun.
Thanks for your concern. In last week's video I shared that I sold my distinctive motorhome and am now flying under the radar. No threats, just want to sleep peacefully at night. And thank you so much for your support!
A weapon? Come on dude, you're watching too much TV
The lack of industry concern over quality appears to be widespread throughout not just rv but the lack of civil society.
I have a class 8 tractor trailer and the loss of reality in business acumen has been replaced by delusion.
The former road standards have fallen, which has caused manufactures to have to place heavier suspension, etc, components on their vehicles.
However, it's my opinion that logic has been replaced by emotion.
Emotion dosent build or maintain a customer base or tax base to maintain a civil society.
Feel free to be able to defend yourself in all spectrums.. we are, unfortunately, in that spectrum.
And you don’t,there’s some nasty people out there.
“The frames are too light”, “The welds are bad”. Can you take the shell off the Frame? How much weight will a new frame weigh compared to the existing one? If you replace the frame, will the unit still be road worthy and will your truck handle the weight? All good questions to consider if you do replace the frame with a custom built one.
I think that would be cost prohibitive. We are concerned about the viability of the repair. It's been a struggle for us in this decision process. Thanks for your input.
@@Patrick_Armendarez I agree it is a hard decision, especially when you do not have at hand cost comparisons. I understood from your video that you both like the layout and features. But looking at the pictures of the frame damage throughout, what is the market value of the trailer as-is? Is it financially better to sell it on or to do a major fix? If you knew those two numbers, what would be the decision then? I’d create the as-built layout for the frame and substitute steel with aluminum, then get a fabricator to price the build. The entire shell is detachable as that is how it was made then put on the frame. If the loss equals the cost of rebuilding, it’s a zero sum game, and the decision is then whether it is worth it to you to go through the process. Good luck sir.
You are really helping this industry
I use too work at a mobile home factory in the floor department and attached the floor to the frame with lag bolts, no excuse for missing bolts!
"KEEP ON KEEPIN ON"
Thank you Liz, my options are changing. Definitely not Grand Design. To many Horrible stories.
I watch eagerly for your videos, and am keeping a diary of brands with specific problems … while trying to be patient on feeling confident I will find the right rig. Thank you for doing the scut work so those of us who want to get out there can understand the risks and rewards. Thanks, Liz! This was a particularly fair video with lots of visuals to support issues.
Good luck in your RV search, Deborah. Definitely consider getting a used unit. Not a good time to buy new, but trailers and fifth wheels built in 2018 and before tend to be well-built. The motorhome sweet spot is 2002 to 2008. Whatever you buy, join the Facebook group of the model to get the scoop from owners. And always get an inspection. Another advantage of buying used is the seller has typically gotten the kinks out. Thanks for watching. For more about what to buy used see my recent video: th-cam.com/video/JSo5n2B62MA/w-d-xo.html
For the last 4 or so years, the TH-cam people as a majority all purchased GDs. We did not because we did not like the floor plans. GD are not the only ones.
Your videos Liz are eye open for all those who want to go RV traveling theses days, I hope people do their homework before buying anything, as always Liz your videos will help people on how to choose the right RV let alone be very informed how to go about this adventure in life, thank you for your hard work on this Liz , your Beautiful! You guys stay safe out there!
Thanks so much, Bill! I sure appreciate your support and kind words, and for cheering me on!
You Rock Liz . Always on the side of the consumer . Enjoy your weekend .Char🐼
Thanks so much, Char, same to you!
The Federal Aviation Administration has strict certification regarding aircraft construction. Why don’t any of the federal highway, traffic safety, automobile safety truck trailer, DOT agencies that regulate car and truck construction care about travel trailers falling apart on the highway which most certainly can cause serious injuries or loss of life?
Grand Design and Keystone are the Boeing of travel trailers.
No, the RV industry is much worse. Boeing has more critics than actual problems.
First, I feel for anyone having this issue. For our new purchase. This is exactly why we put a cap on Fifth Wheel Length, No Drop Frames, use a mid frame. We sold our two motorcycles, my wife did not want to sell her RE GT 535 nor myself my WideGlide. Like many a toy hauler is not ever happening.
We settled on our mid frame Brinkley Z3100 and are full time. Like all RV’s even Brinkley has the little issues. But cannot agree with this video enough, do your research. And…. Just stay away from the big drop frame fifth wheels
Based on this story, I've decided not to spend my hard earned money to buy a new Winnebago Navion. I will look for a company who gives a "hard Yes" to their customers.
Thank you for helping this couple tell their story!
Indeed! I don't blame you one bit. Thanks for watching, Ivan, and happy RV shopping.
I agree with what you said in a prior video....states need to legislate a law which regulates this industry. Otherwise, nothing will change. Thank you for advocating, Liz!
I just purchased a 2020 ATC 4023 toy hauler which is built on an aluminum frame with an aluminum superstructure. The previous owner is a mechanical engineer and has towed it 14k miles without any structural issues. It has no slides, no leaks and so far after towing it halfway across the country I feel confident it will outlast me. I have owned a number of RV's and learned my lesson the hard way. Less is more. My last nightmare was a 2016 Montana with 5 slides and boy was I happy when that POS was sold.
A very sad situation for these folks. I hope they get it resolved with your help Liz.
I retire in a few months and have been watching your videos for about a year with plans to hit the open road... I think I might wait a while.
Hi Steve, Not a good time to buy new, but trailers and fifth wheels built in 2018 and before tend to be well-built. The motorhome sweet spot is 2002 to 2008. Whatever you buy, join the Facebook group of the model to get the scoop from owners. And always get an inspection. Another advantage of buying used is the seller has typically gotten the kinks out. Thanks for watching. For more about what to buy used see my recent video: th-cam.com/video/JSo5n2B62MA/w-d-xo.html I hope to see you out here!!
Just don’t buy new. Like Liz said, buy 2018 or older.
That Really Sucks, We moved from a Truck and 5th wheel to go into a Class A. We have had our class A for almost 2 years, have only been able to go out in (2) trips and its been down ever since. We didn't buy new on the class A though, but who would of thought with only 30k miles it would have issues. I never wanted to get rid of my truck and fifth wheel , and everything i told my wife would go wrong has lol. You know what they say "RV" stands for Ruined Vacation. Sorry to hear your story but it is good to get this out there so people hear this. Hope you folks get your issues taken care of.
We own a 21 Grand Design Solitude 346FLS, we love it! We do get it checked yearly before we hit the road!
Whew! I found it interesting that their frame passed the measurement test, but then still had a broken frame in several places. If you have any of the signs: squeaky floors, doors that won't close or stay closed, things out of line, then do take it in and insist they peal off the filon and look under the pin box. That said, glad that everything is well with yours! Thanks for watching.
Insane you need to really have to do that.
well i finally subscribed. i have to see what happens to you Liz. Keep us posted :)
Liz...never give up or in !! Blessings ❤❤❤❤
Thanks so much, Steve! Have a great weekend!
I had the frame crack problem, 2010 heartland cyclone 3950. Took it back to Indiana, lippert came to dealership and repaired frame, after walls were removed.
1 week later we brought it back to Arkansas. With a lifetime warranty on repairs. So far so good.
I did think highly of Grand Design but not no more. This is not the first video you have done Lisa regarding them. Best thing for us is look for preowned models and not Grand Design.
Me, too. I've owned two brand new Grand Designs. I think they are in serious trouble now with these frames. Thanks for watching and stay tuned.
Nice job, nice video. The squeaky floors and nails pushing up through the vinyl was something I forgot to add to our video for our 395MS. The communication problem is the same for us. Good folks, easy to contact, zero content. Prayers for a good outcome.
Sounds like Lippert and Grand Design have a big liability issue.
Thanks for posting your content Liz, I have a 2003 Thor Toy hauler with NO problems. All my camping group has all the latest rigs that look amazing and I often contemplate upgrading. BUT all of them have issues even my buds new coach he paid over $250k. Screw all that, Im gonna dump money into an interior make over. so what if the exterior is not all fancy with graphics. Hope all people do homework before buying these things.
Never buy an RV, if you stop buying them, they will start making them properly. I haven't heard anyone who is completely happy