I think the Latin Mass is more reverent than the Norvus Ordo. I think most Catholics today do not believe in the Real Presence anymore because of the lack and weak body language done during the Norvus Ordo Mass. When you attend a Latin Mass, you treat Christ as King, while in the Norvus Ordo you treat Christ as if He is a genie or an entertainer. Norvus Ordo Mass can be reverent though, depends on the priest and the laity.
TIPS ON BEING MORE REVERENT IF ATTENDING A NORVUS ORDO MASS: 1. Dress as if you are attending a Latin Mass. No shorts, women should wear a mantilla. be presentable 2. Sit at the front so you won't get distracted and also so that you will be a good example to other Mass attenders. 3. Eyes on Christ. Do gestures of reverence. Kneel, bow, take communion on the tongue. 4. Don't be noisy while inside the sanctuary
Hi Catholic Talk Show, Are there any other Rites within the Catholic Church that celebrate their liturgy in 2 distinct and separate forms like how the Roman Rite has the Extraordinary and Ordinary forms?
I'm 74 and used to serve Mass the old way. As I would follow the Mass in my daily missal most priests would routinely skip entire blocks of old Liturgy! When I was in HS we had this priest named Fr. Robert (real name) who actually went through an entire Sunday Mass in an amazing 12 minutes 'cause I clocked him! Priests way back then used to at times babble through the Liturgy not all but some.
Shortly before Novus Ordo people used to whine and moan habitually about scrapping the Latin Mass; once the vanacular Mass set in things starting getting really wild. There is nothing wrong with the 'New Mass' so long as it's celebrated with great dignity aka Pope Benedict XVI's Christmas Mass; New Mass great dignity.
I was overwhelmed with sadness when I attended my first latin mass. I felt like I was robbed of something beautiful and holy for 19 years of my life. I couldn't understand why anyone would do away with it for something so much more watered down
Absolutely! My husband and I have returned to our Catholic faith after a 40 yr absence - since our Catholic school days. I attended a NO mass at the invitation of a neighbor friend and knew instantly that it wasn't for me, but didn't yet understand why. Then we began Adult catechism classes at an FSSP parish a yr ago. There, I discovered the reverence that was missing from my neighbor's parish. Still today, upon receiving the Holy Communion during the Latin Mass, I return to my pew and kneel to pray, and I struggle to fight back the tears of gratitude nearly every time. I certainly don't wish to be pegged as "the Cryer ". I thank The Lord, over and over for leading back to him and to this glorious Mass and our wonderful priests. My husband and I were confirmed in August.
Peter you have said it just like I feel. I’m in my 70’s and I barely remember the Latin mass. It’s bringing back memories that I have forgotten. It was so holier and we could really feel the Lord present during the consecration and receiving our Lord on the tongue kneeling! I’m in Canada and there is no mass that comes close to the traditional mass. I watch it on my iPad and long for it. I feel that I’ve been robed of the holy mass. My children do not go to church and I feel that they would not have left it if the Latin mass still remained. Let’s pray ., 🙏🙏🙏🙏
Older priests and bishops often say that the youth will not appreciate the Tridentine Mass. Have they seen how many young people are attending it? Almost 80% of attendees are the young.
I’m a cradle Catholic that have known no other than Novus Ordo until I started attending TLM during the Covid lockdown and since then I will never look back. TLM it is for me, I’m in LOVE!
Remember though just because you & the rest of you preferred the Latin Mass, it doesn't make the Novous Ordo mass less (however way) than the Latin Mass. Not saying that you think this way, but I'm simply saying this towards those Catholics that seems to minimize the new mass as if it is inferior form or expression of the mass & criticize Vatican II bec of it, sometimes to the point of throwing insults to Pope Pius XXIII & Pope Paul VI
I was an altar boy pre and post Vatican II. The Latin mass was much more reverential and respectful. Communion was placed on the tongue by a priest with a paten under the chin to collect any fallen particles of the body and blood of Christ. Weekday masses were 20-30 minutes and Sunday masses were 45-75 minutes. Women wore head coverings and everyone had missals. Every church should offer at least one Sunday Latin mass.
@@ryanskol83 you kneel to receive and don't touch the eucharist. The priest faces the tabernacle. The music reverberates in your bones. The whole thing is less about you and more about God. It's less about a talking point and more about worshipping.
Ryan Skolasinski the silence and respect that is observed before and during Mass; the reception of Christ in a humble and vulnerable position (kneeling and on the tongue); when the priest faces the altar and shepherds his flock to look at (and focus on) Christ, as opposed to it being a Mass about me (the congregation); the music which sharply contrasts our modern music and enables us to more easily ‘leave this world’ and enter into a higher spiritual realm (no banjo playing); no applause at Mass; no opportunity for a priest to change up the Mass in order to entertain or fit his personal tastes, etc.
@ryan skolasinski have you ever been to one, if not you definitely have to go. As soon as you do you will know the difference. Most of the time they are in bigger churches that still have the statues, the art, the stained-glass which already makes you feel like you are in heaven. The liturgy is more reverent, the holiness of the Latin, the priest facing ad orientum, the incense, the greogorian chant, and most of all you receive our Lord on your knees and on the mouth. It just is more reverent.
Since my conversion 10 years ago I have only known and attended the Norvos Ordo mass, but within the last year I have been learning more about the history and tradition of our Church and it has instilled a desire within me to want to experience the mass the way many of the great saints experienced it. I live in an area where they do not offer the extraordinary form of the mass, so I have not had the opportunity to have that experience. All I know is that there is a reverence that is lacking in all the parishes here. Talking, dancing, horrible music, and most importantly, abuse of the blessed Sacrament. I'm definitely not even close to being a perfect Catholic, but I do not believe that when the Church was established by our Lord, this is what He desired.
Eddie DeLaCruz : I am also a convert (1960). I was going into Religious Life, until Pope John XXlll convened the Second Vatican Council! A lot of us had a bad feeling! When Pope Paul Vl made the final assault on Holy Mother Church, I had to leave!! I’m still gobsmacked that they were CANONIZED!!! IMHO??……It’s a slap on Our Lord’s Face!
@Eddie DelaCruz If you can't find one locally, there are many online TLM's. You can get the Eucharist at the Novus Ordo and then watch the TLM online. I suggest the St. Cantius channel on TH-cam. Also, the english Ad Orientum Mass is also becoming popular. It's basically the TLM, but in English. God Bless you.
I am housebound disabled Veteran and I watch a Mass online even before the Covid-19 lockdown. I started at the local Parish before I became housebound. Really couldn't connect with it so I looked around to find something that touched me spiritually. Stumbled across one of the Churches in my relative area and they have a Latin Mass every Sunday. And WoW ! I can't even put into words what I felt after watching that Mass. Fortunately, I have found them and now my heart sings. I am a cradle Catholic and went to parochial school so I grew up with the Novus Ordo Can't wait for the movie "Mass of The Ages", looking forward to it. Father, beautiful and eloquent closing prayer! Thank you.
I do prefer the Latin mass. However. I started attending mass in a Norvus Ordo Church (as it's the only church near me that is currently open during COVID) where the visiting priest from Kenya is quite wonderful, a month later the original Priest came back (I've never seen him) performed the mass in English but he faced the altar...he faced our Lord! it made me want to cry and they USE the Communion Rail ❤. I love this church and my Priests.
@@allansimoes8338 At my former parish there was a priest from Nigeria learning the Latin Mass and he has since returned to Nigeria, I believe. So, I'd expect the Latin Mass will in Nigeria shortly, if it wasn't already. :-)
@C L At the Second Vatican Council other Christians outside the Catholic Church were invited to send OBSERVERS to the council and acceptance came from both the Eastern Orthodox Church and Protestant denominations AS INTERNAL OBSERVERS - but these observers were NOT ALLOWED to cast votes in the Approbation of the Concillar Documents. At the end of your comment you stated you are not protestant, so I understand from that you think you are a Catholic but a true Catholic of faith would follow the teachings of the Church and not persecute it. If you cannot follow the rules of any organisation you belong to, why belong. We should all respect others religion, beliefs and what form of mass they prefere to attend.
I wasn't introduced to the Latin Mass until I was 14 or 15. I learned how to serve it not long after I first learned of its existence, in addition to studying the differences between the two rites for a high school theology assignment. I didn't attend the TLM much in college, but not long after I graduated the local parish changed the Sunday schedule to have Latin Mass at 12:30 on Sunday afternoon, so I started going every week, and I haven't stopped unless circumstances preclude me. It's been an incredible blessing to me, and it's changed how I believe significantly and for the better. In December 2019, I was serving Latin Mass on the First Sunday of Advent and during the Offertory, the choir sang the most beautiful polyphonic arrangement of Veni, Veni Emmanuel that I have ever heard. Never before had I heard something so beautiful at Mass, and I seriously doubt I will ever hear something so beautiful at a Novus Ordo. Something about the Latin Mass lends itself to the presence of such music in all its ethereal sublimity.
I heard Dr. Taylor Marshall say once if someone asked how your marriage was going, would you reply back "Well, it's valid." Why would you go to a valid Mass versus an exceptionally beautifully reverent Mass (that's also valid of course :)
@@JeffSaleBoat the thing is though most people don't understand latin, so if they go to an english NO mass, they'll understand it and it's valid. The latin mass may be beautiful, but I had no idea what they were saying when i went to one ahaha
The Latin Mass unites us through place and time. We are together over all the continents and hear the same word through time, over the centuries. My Latin-English Missal broadened my education. I've always given that missal credit for helping me understand new words and technical terminology. It's been something I've regretted losing since it went out of usage. In 1962 I was 14 years old.
I have attended Novus Ordo all my life and have had spiritual growth but I attended TLM and all of the sudden I can’t see the Novus Ordo the same way anymore. It’s just that TLM has some power of the Holy Spirit that draws me to Christ ever more, less distraction and has real clarity and don’t want to lose that. It’s not that I feel better about it but a realization what the mass should be like. I just wish every parish just have at least one TLM.
I actually didn't know that there were Latin masses I could attend. I am excited to attend a Latin mass for the first time. Thank you for this show, I have learned so much already. God Bless!
I went to the Latin mass every day from the 8th grade until I graduated. I loved it so much. I was away from the church for over 40 years. When I went back to church, it was an unbelievable experience for me. I do not like the mass as it is now. So many traditions are now gone and it's over in minutes. I refuse to take communion from the Eucharist Minister as I feel that the priest is the only one that should touch the Eucharist and I also still take it on my tongue. Guess I'm just to old to change. Love your show.
This was THE BEST show yet. I don't have any TLMs near me, but would very much like to attend. My biggest desire is to become more reverent... for the Mass and everyone attending to be more reverent.
I went to my first high Latin mass and it was so beautiful so many young families, incense, Gregorian chants with an organ. It was powerful, mystic, and lovely
i leave my faith for a 10 years then suddenly i attend to the latin mass... i get my faith back and i love attending the Lating Mass bring me so much peace. im felling more close to Jesus in Latin Mass and the gregoriant chunt is the best peacefull fullfill music
So, I'm currently in RCIA and don't have a TLM within 150 miles. We are traditionally minded folks, and it's interesting to note that even as "irreverent" as folks claim the Novus Ordo is, it's so much more reverent than the Protestant churches I've attended. Guys, these conversations are so confusing for folks in my position and this conversation was much more charitable than many I've heard. So, thank you and be careful. I'm not a Protestant anymore, and I don't want to be "Catholic-lite." I believe in the real presence, and it breaks my heart to not be able to participate yet. I have an Indian priest who is a very serious and holy man, and he has personally taken over my family's catechesis. Pray for me brothers.
I converted from aethesim/new age spiritualism 3 years ago, and I started out at a NO church with a reverent Nigerian priest. It was a great blessing and grace to receive conversion. When I found out the NO mass wasn't even the mass that was celebrated by the saints I have grown to admire and love, and I was appalled. I started praying to God to open up a way for me to go to the TLM, and 6 months later He moved me to a different city for work, and to a neighborhood 2 miles from a diocesan TLM parish. Now that I am 15 months in to the TLM, I can tell you that my heart breaks for what has been lost in the Catholic Church. The NO consecration & sacraments are valid, but they are just a shell of the traditional sacraments. All of sacraments and rites have been stripped bare. But as St Peter said "Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life." There is only One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - even in her most crippled form, she is the only one.
I just started attending the FSSP parish in Providence RI and it's awe inspiring! I love it and want to have my future children receive sacraments there. I was born in raised in a Novus Ordo parish but I strayed away...started going to TLM last year and won't turn back. The Latin Mass is deepening my faith in respect for the Eucharist.
There is no superior Mass; only the wrapping is different - the disposition of the heart, the participation, the listening, the living, the reverence, the humility, the sincerity, the love in one word, our attitude is the most important in both cases and one should remain free to choose whichever Mass one desires to participate in and no one should look down on another Catholic telling Him One mas is better than the other. Please do not mess around with fragile consciences teaching that one is pleasing to God and the other one does not, that one is good and the other is bad. There is no truth in that and It may damage a person's conscience forever. I respect all opinions except those which are not inspired by LOVE. There is the "Magisterium of the Church" to guide us, as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
There is no superior Jesus and a lesser Jesus. It's the same Jesus offered to the Father in every Mass. Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. Amen
Honestly I love both, the Latin mass I think I prefer, but when the Novus Ordo is celebrated reverently it’s actually quite a beautiful mass as much as the Latin.
The fact that you must add “ properly” proves the point that the new mass is a farce. It promotes clown masses, cookies and juice, one sacrilege and heresy after another. It desecrates the Son of God. No. It it unequivocally a disgrace to God. No altar rails. Communion in hand. No respect. Heresy and desecration. No apologies for the traditional Catholic Faith!
Latin Mass by far is more complete.....it is coming the new revolution I feel! I am new convert into Catholic (year ago) and quickly decide to become TLM member after seen an very holy and devoted friend (I believe she can be a saint) I and my wife took the decision to go mass everyday, pray the rosary everyday and also try to go confessions often (per month but trying to go per week is the goal)...we believe Latin Mass can restore the church yes! The truth presences of our lord, the reverence, the .... I can give my life for Jesús any moment? Let's ask us that question everyday and we will know where our faith is now....God bless you all.
We drive two hours each way to attend our closest TLM. We are in the process of moving closer for this Mass. And, if this Mass stops, we will move again, God-Willing. Out of my family, my husband and I are the only practicing Catholics. My 4 siblings, 30 cousins, aunts, uncles, and my 3 children are no longer practicing Catholics.
Following this from Australia 🇦🇺 . I really enjoy these discussions. I personally have clicked the reset button on my Catholicity. There's an emptiness for me attending the NO. My late Father always said, "you don't go to Mass to pray, you go to pray the Mass". I hope this makes sense...I can pray anywhere, anytime and have had many a challenging encounter. Reflecting on Cain and Abel from the OT is the NO the best we can do or is the TLM a more worthy expression of our worship, reverence and offering? With the NO have we lost the sense of the sacred and sacrificed too much?
This is a quote from Bishop Strickland from a couple of years ago..... "Ways to receive Our Lord as King of the Universe…read and reflect on the Sunday Scriptures, plan your whole weekend around receiving your King, wear your best garments, spend time in quiet, kneel to receive Him, receive Him on the tongue, offer silent time of thanks after mass."
"Praying before Christ in the Blessed Sacrament drew me to this rite. I find my spiritual life has skyrocketed since I became a bishop and especially as I have centered my focus on our Eucharistic Lord." --Bishop Joseph Strickland
I am a convert. Before I became Catholic, all I knew about the Mass was the Latin Mass from Hollywood. Bells of St Mary, Song of Bernadette, Keys to the Kingdom, The Nun, even Change of Habit with Elvis. When I began my road back to the Church, I got the Mass in English, standing, Eucharist in the palm. I knew it was not like what I'd seen, but I was fine with it. I went to a Latin Mass in Ireland and I liked it. It was early in the morning and it was more quiet and more contemplative. But really, I feel totally okay doing either. And my priest will do either in the palm or on the tongue and there are a lot of people who walk up and kneel to take Communion. I just like knowing that I can go to any church and I can go to Mass and find my place, do the responses and take Communion, confident in the propriety of the Mass and the Real Presence of Christ.
I really enjoyed this show! Our family used to move between TLM and NO Mass but during the summer lockdowns of last year we began to migrate more and more towards our FSSP parish. It's been a joyful experience for us with really and truly shepherd minded priests. I was pleasantly surprised to hear the discourse here which actually had very little conflict. It gives me so much hope for what the future direction of the Church may be, by the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Also I wanted to say what a beautiful prayer at the end. Thank you, Father!! Our family is very excited for Mass of the Ages to be released! God's blessings upon all!! ♥️🙏🏻
Well.... I grew up with the Latin Mass, but in my early teens, the modern Mass began. And I actually like the modern Mass and was happy by the changes with no desire to go back. My current church has beautiful Mass, very devout, and the piano and organ music and singing is beautiful. Call me strange, but I am fine with the modern form.
I prefer being a participant in the Mass & know what I am saying. I prefer Novus Ordo. I remember my parents & grandparents praying their private rosaries during the Latin Mass. They had no idea what was being said. They always told me that was between Jesus & the Priest. TLM has beautiful music but again I prefer being an active participant in the vernacular.
Apostolic Nuncio to Kekistan you are right I am a boomer but I am not a modernist. It is sad so many rad trads can only throw out accusations. I love God, the Catholic Church & it’s teachings. Novus Ordo is a valid way to celebrate the sacrifice of the Mass. Every Sunday I attend a Novus Ordo mass that is just as reverent, holy, & uplifting as the TLM. I will pray the Holy Spirit softens your heart & erases the contempt you have toward your Catholic brothers & sisters. Praise Jesus.
TLM for us! We are fighting for a TLM in our area and have been for years. The only one on our diocese is once a month and two hours away. Only two in our entire state. 😭
Im a Syro Malabar Catholic. We have East Syriac Liturgy. But when my fellow friends told about TLM i curiously searched for that. But in India TLM is rare. Not in our diocese. More than 2 hours journey from my home. Now we are going to demand TLM even though we are Eastrn Catholic. Our liturgy is very beautiful too. I really want to participate in TLM like you.
While living in Europe for many years; I always found myself in church. Great architecture and history. The thing I like about attending Mass in a different language is the rhythm of Mass. I know what is said even if I don’t know the language. With the rhythm of mass you can attend mass any where in the world.
Oh my goodness! Thank you for this video...this really hit home for me. I am new to attending the TLM. I was in awe in my first experience and understand the greatness of our lord through this mass. In total reverence, I feel closer to experiencing the glory of God. Tradition is definitely the foundation of obedience and reverence, I believe. God bless you all.
Thanks so much for having Cameron on your show. I attend Holy Family in Dayton and absolutely love it! It feels like home to me, it feels like heaven touching earth.
I'm of course into Tridentine Latin Mass. With all of my passion, I support to organize Tridentine Latin Mass here in Bandung, Indonesia. We have a small community here.
I’ve noticed that those who take their faith more seriously and live a more orthodox and devout Catholic life all prefer the TLM. All my friends who are Catholic-lite (i.e. don’t really believe in the real Presence, view their faith as an one ‘accessory’ in their life, the more cultural Catholic, etc.) seem to all prefer the NO because it’s easier, shorter, and comes off as less serious. Any true Catholic should be willing to sacrifice 2 hours of their week (2/168 hours per week) worshipping their Creator. Mass should cater to the serious believers and not be a place to primarily catechize non-believers (that’s what school and Bible studies are for).
My post was meant to reflect what I have personally experienced. From talking to my friends and family, the ones who self-admit having doubts about their faith, self-admit their trouble believing in the real Presence, and who are more ‘cultural Catholics’ that go to Mass and talk about how they wish it was shorter so they can watch their sports shows, all seem to prefer the NO. In contrast, all my friends and family who spend their free time reading Scripture, work hard to follow the traditions of the Church and personally express a deep love for their Catholic faith (and live it out in a real way) all seem to prefer the TLM. This is not meant to be taken as empirical evidence, but just an interesting coincidence. I hope that makes a bit more sense.
Guy, I'm gonna agree with Jordan on this one... too many catholics do not believe in the real presence you sound like you could be 1 of those Catholic-lites. He wasn't making a judgment he was making a comment from what he has seen; what many of us have seen. You judged him...🤔
R C you just judged me. You don’t even know me. You didn’t even ask, if I believed in the real presence... So you know, I do. Which mass it comes out of, makes no difference, both are valid. It’s really nothing more than personal taste. Maybe pay more attention to your own heart. Not judge hearts if others. That’s Gods job. Way above our pay grade.
R C what you and Jordan suggest, Catholics that don’t believe in your opinions, are somehow unknowing or mislead. Not as good as TLM Catholics.....tsk tsk......again above your pay grades.
@SkillsDND the Latin mass wasn't in Latin because of the Roman empire. It was Latin and still is because it was the common tongue for the first 1900 years of Christianity.
@SkillsDND that's why I initially also said demons could hate the languages of Greek and Aramaic too. And you're right, Hebrew could also be added to the list
I was born in the 70's, so I only know the Novus Ordo (it's pretty much all I've been exposed to all my life). I used to think that we could just celebrate the Novus Ordo more reverently but I've abandoned this reasoning lately. There's just waaaaaaaay too much freedom and variety allotted to Parishes; and this is all done under the auspices and authority of the Bishops (who do nothing) - all based on the document, "Sacrosanctum Concilium", which allows for such variety and ambiguity when celebrating the Novus Ordo (read for yourself ). In once sentence it appears to preserve tradition, and then in the very next sentence it sanctions the opposite. In a typical Novus Ordo Parish there's more of an emphasis on 'feelings', 'participation', and 'emotional experience'. while we all gather around a table and, ''eat a communal meal." - I think this is what is imbibed just by visual observation. *If you read Article 7. of the 1969 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM), when the New Mass was first published; there was no mention of the Mass being a Sacrifice (not even once), but says, "The Lord's Supper, or Mass, is the sacred meeting or congregation of the people of God assembled, the priest presiding, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord. For this reason, Christ's promise applies eminently to such a local gathering of holy Church: 'Where two or three come together in my name, there am I in their midst' (Mt. **18:20**)."* *So Transubstantiation, Real Presence, a Propitiatory Sacrifice offered to God for our sins, and the intrinsic value of the Eucharistic Sacrifice by a Priest, independent of the presence of the assembly, are not mentioned at all. (and the GIRM was a theological and doctrinal exposition of the New Mass).* After there was some objection to the New Mass by 'conservatives', the revisers tried to deny that the GIRM was a theological or doctrinal statement about the New Mass; *however, the reformers themselves had repeatedly said that the GIRM would explain the doctrinal and theological principles behind the New Mass.* *So what did they do? In 1970 the Vatican came out with a 'revised version' of the 1969 GIRM; but all they did was insert Tridentine terms in Article 7 alongside the protestantized terms of the 1969 GIRM; but the Mass itself was exactly the same.* So there was no real change at all to the actual theological and doctrinal elements that made up the Novus Ordo. The same protestantized theological and doctrinal elements of the 1969 version were still present in the 1970 version because it was the exact same Mass. . *There seems to be two competing theologies, between the average Novus Ordo Parish and a TLM Parish; and it even seems as if there are two different Churches existing within the same organizational structure.* The Novus Ordo has always been so protestantized and banal; it would be unrecognizable and completely foreign to any faithful Catholic in previous centuries. The average Novus Ordo Parish (with very few exceptions) no longer holds to Catholic orthodoxy.
ultimouomo11 nailed it perfectly. The rubrics are too lax and when people don’t follow it, they treat it like it’s no big deal. But as said in the mass of the ages promo video, how we worship affects our view of the Lord and him in the Eucharist.
Agree completely. The Novus Ordo Masses, especially if the Priest is lax, make it seem as if the Mass is merely a commemoration of The Sacrifice, not an actual Sacrifice.
@SkillsDND the same can be said about all the pro-novus ordoees who question the wisdom of the Church Fathers and all the Councils that preceeded V2. Especially the Council of Trent.
@SkillsDND You want to talk about "questioning the wisdom of those whom God has ordained'? Okay. The document on the New Mass states that Latin is to be retained, and that Gregorian Chant is to have pride of place in the Liturgy. So why do you and your parish question the will of God on this matter and disobey?
I wish we had a Mass that more closely adhered to the rich tradition of the Church but could incorporate some of the benefits of the new Mass. A nice bridge between the both. I think a properly done NO is not that bad and would inspire more orthodoxy and faith in the people.
It's impossible because the Church leaves priests to flex the rules. If they made no room for changes or extra stuff within the NO, then you would have something good.
That's true. I guess what I mean is keep some of the prayers of the NO and perhaps the readings in vernacular, but put back majority Latin, ad orientum, gregorian chant, and altar rails.
Jordan L I am used to think that too. I converted from Pentecostalism in 2010. I stumbled into the EF (never heard of it, no one told me anything about it) 2015. I didn’t want to add to the divisiveness so I tried to remain in both parishes (my NOM & new one, ICKSP). But the more I learned about the theology of it all the more I couldn’t attend the NOM. Being so Pentecostal and converting with a mindset of “fine Lord, I will become Catholic but don’t want to be too Catholic..” smh. To now I will only attend the TLM is a HUGE change in me that I didn’t expect I’d ever see in me. The EF is transformative. It’s hard to remain neutral, just go with the flow...whatever that flow is in your local parish. I realized just how much the NOM allows the parish priest to run it all the way “he” wants to. That it can’t be trusted to remain reverent, etc. They can even choose their own Eucharistic prayers. The Confiteor is different. The missal was basically gutted like the Protestant Reformation did with the Bible, taking out what “they” didn’t like. Therefore, it’s impossible for the NOM to be as rich with the proper guardrails, unfortunately. I used to think that was so uncharitable to say and think...until I learned liturgical history and still learning. But i do agree that the NOM is valid and licit, it just made me feel like I didn’t convert out of Protestantism and did nothing for me. It actually hindered my spiritual growth. For me, the EF changed my entire life and being (i struggled a lot with my marriage, modesty, purity, anger, etc and now my marriage has never been better and so many examples like this...i was in chaos and didn’t know it till the EF). So, I now share my liturgical journey on my own little TH-cam page for simple regular lay people like myself. ☺️ Here’s one: th-cam.com/video/i27dUtgzZsc/w-d-xo.html 15 Reasons Why I Am Growing Through the Extraordinary Form (TLM)
When discussing about if Latin is important in itself, I'm surprised no one mentioned that Latin, Hebrew and ancient Greek (all now dead languages) were nailed to the cross, thus making them sacred.
Born in the late 60's I grew up with the, new at the time, Novus Ordo. My parish used the alter rails, with communion on the tongue, until around 1979. After my first year of high school we moved, and my family stopped attending Mass. I did not return to the Church until around 2000 with my wife, and were are blessed to have come back to a reverent, Novus Ordo parish, with outstanding priests, and perpetual adoration. I have been spared almost all of the liturgical abuse horror stories associated with the Novus Ordo. Our parish now has both NO and TLM masses. I love them both. I love the beauty, reverence, and especially the music of the High Mass. But, I also love the simplicity of a well said NO Mass, and I love hearing the words of the Eucharistic prayers in English. And, while I largely prefer the old liturgical calendar, I do really like the way the new cycle of readings works.
I feel that had I been raised under the TLM I wouldn’t have left the church for decades. I was an altar boy for 10 years in the Novus Ordo and all I remember how we were taught one thing and then things would change. Growing up it was just confusion over and over. TLM is slowly bringing me back.
Latin is the Official Language of the Latin Rite within the Catholic Church, as Greek is the Official Language of the Byzantine Rite. We have ancien Catholic Rites that were never rooted in Latin and actually preceded Latin. The New Testament was written in Greek, the first ecumenical Councils were in Greek, the Language of Constantinople was Greek, etc. Slavonic (St. Cyril and St. Methodius) is the Official Language of the Slave Catholic churches in communion with the Supreme Pontiff without carrying Latin as the language of their churches. The Pope is not only the Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church but he is also specifically the Patriarch of the Latin church. In Canon Law the Catholic Church is composed by 23 churches Sui Iuris with different Liturgical Rites. You were baptized in the Latin Rite, may not be the case for another Catholic.
@JohnBelz But it is a very important clarification, because many Catholics baptized in the Latin Rite reduce the whole Catholic Church just to one Rite and one sacred language when, in fact, there are many. When Russia will convert and come back in full communion with the Pope - as predicted in Fatima - they will still keep their Byzantine Liturgy in Russian and, married men, according with the Canon Law for Eastern Churches, will still be able to be ordained as deacons and priests, because also Celibacy is a discipline limited to the Latin Rite in Canon Law.
@@Zematus737 Christ is truly present Body Blood Soul and Divinity in the Tabernacle. Even if you are a great living Saint like Saint Francis, or Saint Padre Pio, the presence of Christ is infinitely greater in the Tabernacle then in your heart. Since the Tabernacle is in the wall, Christ is in the wall and so we face it to worship Him. And if you're not in a state of grace, Christ is not in your heart. So either way, it makes far more sense to face Christ in the Tabernacle in the wall then to be focused on yourself.
@@Steve_Milo When the priest elevates the host, does it make any sense, while he holds the king in his hands, to extend it towards itself? When they prepare the Eucharist, do they not empty the tabernacle? So what then is he elevating the host towards? Think, seriously, if it is at all right in the mind or your heart for the priest to elevate the host towards the altar then. Does it make any sense for the king to be extended towards anything or be to presented as a wave offering lifted above the heads of the people so that all could see as a fellowship offering? Has it become normal to all of you that you extend towards the altar the sacrifice? Which is greater, the throne or the one who sits on it? Admit that the most central and holy act of the mass in the old rite has been wrong for hundreds of years in this single gesture! The Novus Ordo is superior in this aspect alone, which is the greatest matter in the entire ceremony.
@@Zematus737 @Hugo G. my friend, you make good logical points that flow well, but they are all wrong because they are based upon a false premise that the purpose of the Mass is a "fellowship offering" or even for the people. Another point you make that is wrong I will explain at the end, and that is the Novus Ordo is superior to the Latin Mass. Neither rite of the Mass is superior to each other in Sacramental Grace, the Novs Ordo is equal to the Latin Mass, and to the other approved rites of the Mass, Carmelite, Benedictine, etc. None are superior or inferior, but equal. If you understand the true purpose of the Mass, then everything done in both the Latin Mass, and the Novus Ordo (when the rubrics are followed) makes sense. The purpose of the Mass is two fold, first, it is not offered to or for the people, as a fellowship, or anything like that. The Mass is not an additional sacrifice after the Sacrifice Christ performed by his Crucifixion and death. Christ is not being crucified again in each Mass. The Mass is offered to God the Father and it goes outside of time into the Eternal Sacrifice Christ made on the Cross. Christ's death on the cross is called the Eternal Sacrifice because he is literally God, the second person of the Trinity, so His divine nature is outside of time and so it is before God the Father for all eternity, just as the moment it occurred during time 2,000 years ago. So each and every Mass ties into the Eternal Sacrifice offered to God the Father to become one with the Eternal Offering made by God the Son to God the Father for the remission of our sins. When the Priest elevates the host, he is not raising it up so we can adore it, though that is a joyful benefit I love doing, that is not the point of the Elevation. The point of the Elevation is the Priest offering God the Son to God the Father, lifting him up above his head towards Heaven, and towards the alter because the purpose of the altar is to offer sacrifice. Just as a bull or lamb is raised to an alter to be sacrificed in the old Jewish Rite, Christ, who is the Lamb of God, is offered by the Priest to the altar so it can be raised up to God the Father, again, joining into the Eternal Sacrifice of the Cross 2,000 years ago. Another point of the Elevation is symbolism, just as Christ was lifted up towards God the Father in Heaven on a cross, the Priest lifts Christ (who is truly present) up to God the Father who is in Heaven. I will address your questions in the next post.
@@Zematus737 Now to address your questions: 1. When the priest elevates the host, does it make any sense, while he holds the king in his hands, to extend it towards itself? Answer: The priest is not offering Christ the King, to Christ the King. As you said, that doesn't make sense. The priest is offering Christ the King to God the Father. 2. When they prepare the Eucharist, do they not empty the tabernacle? So what then is he elevating the host towards? Answer: Sometimes the tabernacle is empty because the Hosts inside of it are removed to be distributed to the people. Sometimes the tabernacle is not empty and will have a consecrated Host in it used for Adoration, in which case the rubrics of the Mass state that genuflection to the tabernacle should be performed when passing before it, if it has a consecrated Host in it. If the tabernacle is empty of any Host, then the rubrics state that no genuflection should be performed to the tabernacle. This is unfortunately rarely remembered in the Novus Ordo. Again, the priest is elevating the Host to the altar as an entrance into the Eternal Sacrifice performed by the Son to the Father. 3. Has it become normal to all of you that you extend towards the altar the sacrifice? Answer: Yes, this is perfectly normal and has been normal for thousands of years before the birth of Christ, and after the birth of Christ. The purpose of the altar is for a sacrifice and this is a universal recognition in all religions, even pagan. The Jews offered animals to God on an altar, Pagans offered animals to their false gods, Zeus for example, on altars. Catholics offer God the Son truly present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity to God the Father on an altar. 4. Which is greater, the throne or the one who sits on it? Answer: It is a rhetorical question, but the obvious answer is the one who sits on the throne is greater. Mary is called the Throne of God because baby Jesus sat on her lap. Jesus is superior to Mary. 5. Point you make "Admit that the most central and holy act of the mass in the old rite has been wrong for hundreds of years in this single gesture!" Answer: The most central and holy act of the Mass has been done correctly for hundreds of years. In fact, it is also correctly done in the Novus Ordo as well. This is because the rubrics of the Novus Ordo call for the Priest to face the altar, but the Priests have been facing the people instead because the people demanded it, wanting the attention to be on themselves. 6. Point you make "The Novus Ordo is superior in this aspect alone, which is the greatest matter in the entire ceremony." Answer: The Novus Ordo is not superior to any other rite of the Mass, and none of the other rites are superior to the Novus Ordo. All are equal in Sacramental Grace. There are 7 approved rites of the Mass, and several sub rites that tie into the 7 official rites that can be performed with permission from both Rome and the Ordinary of the Diocese.
It's not only the vernacular and different rubrics of the Novus Ordo Mass. It's the whole Novus Ordo / Vatican 2 mindset that exists at the vast majority of parishes: poor music, disinterested altar servers, the altar crowded with women, poor homilies, no focus on sin, "children and teen Masses," no discipline in attire, uninspiring architecture and decor, homilies or bulletin tracts that doubt the historicity or supernatural nature of Scripture, half an hour of confession ("reconciliation") offered per week, tabernacle off to the side in most cases, too focused on left-leaning social justice issues, liberal "prayers of the faithful" snuck in, fracture with the old calendar, many times substituting the Confiteor for the brief and less offensive Lord / Christ / Lord have mercy, R.E. programs using cartoon books as central texts through all grades (along with the awful NAB, of course), still occasional novelties like sticking sand in the holy water fonts during Lent, Father "First Name," no discipline in fasting or abstinence (e.g. fasting dispensed during Lent because coronavirus was too hard on people, according to the bishops), rushed communion with unnecessary EMHCs giving communion, too much noise with constant singing during / post-communion . . . just to name a few things.
@@Marco-qe5zw I would beg to disagree on the "disinterested" lay ministers. I have been a lay minister of the Word and music minister. And while I have not been an Altar Server, I have worked with them closely. We don't just go to the mass and say, "I can read, so I can be a Minister of the Word". We do undergo formations and training so that we would understand what is our role in the celebration of the Eurcharist. I do agree though, that sometimes, the ministers have been doing it for too many a time, that he becomes tired. But I would say, that is also true for the professional musician who is doing the service because he is being paid. It doesn't mean that money is his reason for doing the service but he also gets "disinterested" sometimes.
What's the point of even being catholic anymore when all the churches around you are like you described? Even protestant churches nearby are less watered down. I'm lost and don't know what to do.
@@jayzlvillafanianebre546 I too have been a EMOTE and gave it up because the novus ordo mentality lacks the true reverence and tradition around the Eucharist. Many holy men with extraordinary minds have studied and contemplated on all that is Sacred and modernists thinking they know better are destroying all that is connected with the Sacred. I was also with the charismatics and in time I saw that the truly Catholic Church was being protestantised in many ways. I was losing my faith too. Then by "chance" I came across the Oratorians of St Phikip Neri and the Sacred came alive again. TLM please always as it's reverence and beauty glorify God and elevate us from the clay we're made of to come before the throne and majesty of God.
@@fraisedesbois7240 , Be patient and look for a TLM near you. More and more of them are being offered. And if not TLM, find an English one that has the Priest Ad Orientum, facing towards the Altar away from the parishioners, basically the TLM but in English. Also, if you're not already doing so, buy the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary and pray it. I suggest the Blue Baronius Press version found at BaroniusPress.com or ChristianBooks.com. It has English and Latin together, and uses verbiage from the Douay Version of the Bible, before all this progressive stuff infiltrated. A Daily Rosary is also a good idea if you're not called for the Little Office. The Graces you get from a Daily Rosary are tremendous. It helped me get over my porn addiction and chastity, which beforehand I thought was utterly impossible.
I would have to disagree slightly. The true presence is the most important but this is how I see it. Consider marriage. Even though you can go the courthouse and officially become married, most people opt for the ceremony (the mass) and the reception that costs thousands. Why? Because they don't want to settle for the minimum. It's one of the most important thing in their life. Now let's go back to the mass. We can opt the bare minimum but many people prefer the solemnity and reverence because it's important to them, to me. Validity is the most important but it should be the goal. It should be the base. We should build on the validity to offer up God the greatest worship that mankind can offer Him.
I prefer being an active participant therefore I prefer the Novus Ordo mass. My parish has a beautiful Novus Ordo mass. When we enter the church we pray. I don’t know what people are talking about when they say people are talking to their neighbor before Mass begins. That does not happen in our diocese or my parish Church. Whenever I have gone to the TLM because I do not understand Latin, I feel like I have not been to Mass. I take offense to those who say people who like Novus Ordo are not devout Catholics. Many in my parish goes to Mass everyday. All I can say to that statement is this is not true. God have mercy on those who make such judgements.
I returned to listen to this discussion a second time, which is a first. Happy to be the 667th thumbs up. It is refreshing & encouraging to hear people speak on this issue without raising voices, finger-pointing, & condemnation of one another for daring to have separate perspectives. This is likely the first talk about this issue I've heard in which people are actually being Christ-like & reasoned rather than impassioned & divisive. My deepest thanks to everyone on the panel. I have a question & hope & pray someone will stumble across this & point me in the right direction. I'm newly-confirmed in the Church (as of the last weekend in June thanks to the virus & the Lent which kept on giving). As a new Catholic, I often find myself immersed in social media & reading related to the Church. I attended RCIA, but there was very little discussion regarding the tenets of the faith & almost no instruction in tradition other than how to pray the Rosary. I bought a Bible & a copy of the catechism a la Vatican II last fall & have read the Catechism & am mostly through the Bible. (I've made it as far as Galatians.). I've also purchased a '62 missal, an introductory book on the writings of Aquinas, & book called "Sermons in a Sentence", which is a collection of various things written by Archbishop Fulton Sheen across many of his works. The daily Mass offered by Bishop Barron & Word on Fire was incredibly helpful, especially Father Steve. They made me realize the Mass is something I want every day, or as often as I can possibly attend. I found a parish which is only 45 minutes from me & began attending the Tridentine Mass. That lengthy preface is to say I'm trying to soak up as much as I can. It is sort of an oddly consuming desire. Perhaps this sort of infatuation-like obsession is common with new converts. Are there places or organizations or websites for which I should look to continue instructed cathechesis? Where would I find so many of the traditional prayers Catholics raised in the Church since infancy seem to know? Has the Church been so divided over the Mass for most of the past 50 years? Does anyone have recommendations for books, authors, lecturers, etc? I wish I had grown up in the Church & in Catholic schools rather than playing catch-up as an adult, but maybe God knew I wouldn't have listened or appreciated it when I was younger. Some of us have to learn the hard way. One more question. I've been attending the Mass on Saturday evening at my local parish, early Sunday at another parish 20 minutes away, then I typically stop for coffee & a light breakfast & read for a while before driving the extra 25 minutes to attend the traditional Mass offered at midday on Sundays. Is there any sort of limit or guideline to how often I should attend Mass & receive the Eucharist? I hope I'm not breaking some sort of unspoken rule, but please let me know if I am. My apologies for the length of this comment. God bless anyone with the patience to make it to the end.
I attend a Novas Ordo Mass and know nothing about vatican ll or why exactly they changed the mass...and I hate how it makes me feel! Who in their right mind would have us standing to receive our Lord!
I totally agree with you! We have a Latin mass 10 minutes away. I went with my son a few weeks ago and it was reverent...most women were veiled..people dressed well..but no music! I could feel it's absence! I have attended Latin masses at the basillica in philadelphia that were beautiful! It takes me 45 minutes to an hour to get there..but there is no parking..plus I hate going into the city these days....but I am going to check their mass schedule...I think it would all be worth it!
@@dmd418 .. It was silent! Nothing like the Gregorian chant I heard at the basillicas! I didn't expect the same quality of music at this small church...but u didn't expect silence either! I may try it one more time...maybe it was an off week or something I wasn't aware of!
"the way we pray drives what we believe". Reverence is everything. My soul, my prayer, my desire, is reverent no matter which mass. It's what I was taught, and have no problem with living. The mass itself calls for reverence. I come from a very traditionally Italian Catholic family. I so love this episode, like all of them.
I grew up with the TLM, and left after Vatican II. I've only been back since Dec 2019, and I was appalled at the first Mass I'd been to in 50 years. So here I was in what I learned is a NO Mass, the altar is in the center of a stage-like area, no altar rail, and people wandering all over shaking hands and chatting at the "sign of peace"....which wasn't a thing when I left. I wondered what was next; were we all going to sing Kumbaya next?? Were we Protestants now and nobody told me?? And good grief, laity handling the Holy Eucharist!! That is sacrilege as far as I am concerned! And that's exactly what I told the pastor when I met with him later on. But what it all boils down to, as far as the Mass is concerned, is not what language it's in, but what is our relationship to Our Lord? I remember being taught in Catholic school that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, and of course yeah, yeah, He's present. But it really didn't hit home for me until one day a few months ago, during an ordinary Mass, nothing special going on. There was something extra special in the way the pastor spoke the words "Take this all of you and eat of it, for THIS IS my body...." and the look of sheer reverence on his face as he elevated the host, and I felt the full impact of the presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist. I had tears in my eyes as I received the Eucharist that day. That day changed everything for me. I can't get enough of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass now. It is the apex of my day. I don't care that it's not in Latin, that the altar is facing the wrong way, that we can't kneel for communion (well I can't cuz the priest would have to manually haul me back up if I knelt down to the floor!). None of that matters one piddly bit, because it's being in the presence of the Lord that matters to me.
This is a breath of fresh air! I am a child of the old Latin Order and I believe it is difficult to go back, but we HAVE lost something in the actual devotion.
I am a convert from a black Moody Baptist Church and 2 hour church services were all I had known. The sermon was 1hr by itself. This doesn't include extra time added for Communion Sunday (every 1st Sunday). Bring on longer masses! I'm not scared.😅
Question for next week, what is better the rosary or the Divine Mercy Chaplet. Answer: both. In this video/one-sided conversation you ask the wrong question and so you get the wrong answer. Different prayers and the different forms of the Holy Mass reach different personalities and people. Personal comparative and qualitative judgements or preferences do not apply. I am happy that you are edified by the Tridentine Mass and I am happy that others are drawn into prayer by the Novus Ordo. The Lord provides for all.
I am a traditionalist in almost everything I do. As a Catholic the Tradition of the Apostolic succession legitimizing the Nova Ordo makes it the Mass to attend. Don't get me wrong I love the Latin Mass but hearing the Mass in the vernacular language allows me to understand all of the Mass. In the past the purpose of the Latin Mass was necessary to maintain proper translation, but with the improved communication we are able to have an good and valid translation. My dream Mass is the 2 and 3 hour Ordo. With that said going to Mass on Sunday, Office of Readings thru out the week, and Adoration on Wednesday, is a wonderful way to open my self to the Holy Spirit. The purpose of the Mass is Truth, not feelings.
I know this three years old, but being a new TLM with SSPV I think this was a great conversation. First Father Pagano is so polite and respectful to what the others are saying about TLM. This kind of attitude will make him a wonderful priest. The gentleman from Mass if the Ages had me in tears listening to him. Kudos for making me emotional. This was a great topic and handled so well. I wish you all the best in your journey through life as a Catholic. ❤
I appreciate the honest and respectful voices in this video. However, I am continuously confused by those who say "Apple pie has all the perfect qualities of a dessert, but apple sauce is just as sufficient." We do not attend Mass to please ourselves. If the TLM automatically lends itself to more reverence & less sacrilege, then why risk offering God anything else? Yes, the sacrifice is the same in both forms, but one is OBJECTIVELY superior if you are intending to worship God the way He demands. He cannot and should not receive anything less if a better option is available.
I have attended the Latin Mass for 20 years. Regular High Mass is about the same duration as the Novous Ordo. A solemn High Mass might be close to 2 hours, particularly on Maundy Thursday with the incensing and Eucharistic Procession to the "Tomb." My local parish Mass starts at 11 am until 12:15 weekly.
The longer I'm away from in person Mass, the more questions & concerns I have. The corona virus becomes a pandemic taking over and suddenly we find the fonts empty???? If we really believe it's holy water, then why are we afraid of a virus. If we really believe we take the body and blood of Christ then why are we afraid to worship together? Why aren't we on our knees accepting Christ? Why is the government deciding when and how I worship? Why is it okay to shop in public, but not worship? How is it, the Church does not perform Mass or weddings outdoors until the government said it was the only way they could? I was able to go to confession, but I just can't accept making a reservation for mass, attend outside 6 feet away from everyone, face coverings, and receiving our Lord in the hand. When I hear people talk about the Latin Mass, I just want to cry b/c I've never experienced it and yet it sounds exactly like what I am looking for. If King Inslee ever lets us out, I want to experience the Latin Mass.
I'm so impressed by some of these comments by young people and I too have also only known the novis ordo Mass. Having learned the Latin Mass, I also felt cheated. I am praying for a resurgence of the TLM!
This is really going to make some people mad, but...I’m just curious if this happens to anyone else: When people say, “but Vatican II (the N.O. Mass) just hasn’t been implemented properly, yet,” does anyone else hear echoes of when people say that about Socialism?
I remember growing up with TLM. I would DEFINITELY support a return to mainstream Catholic churches. TLM gives a more insightful perspective into our Catholic faith and its rich traditions.
As an American Citizen who grew up in the Protestant traditions Catholicism still holds some admiration from me because of it's many traditions and connections to the beginning of Christianity within the Jewish communities. Thanks for the podcast ❤🇺🇸🙏
As someone that is old enough to remember and be an alter boy pre VII, I have a few thoughts. 99% of all Masses celebrated before VII were of the low form. No singing, no chanting, no music, no incense, no participation. Most of the Mass was recited silently by the priest. Most responses were provided by the server. The congregation were observers. They said a few amens, a few et cum spiritu tuos and a few in nomine... Mass was rushed because there could be up to 5 Masses in a row, scheduled on each hour, because if you wanted to go to Communion you could not eat or drink from midnight. They could start as early as 5am. You were a human production line. I love pomp and ceremony and the old Latin Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei etc. when used. However, I find it amusing when people, with no memory of the Latin Mass, over romanticize that time and the feelings and reverence people had for the Mass. As with today and Novus Ordo you ran the gamut with peoples attitude, understanding, reasoning. The same people were sitting in the pews then, as now.
You've got a point there, but it was closer to 90% Low Mass in my parish, as there has to be at least one High Mass sung every Sunday. Most people knew what was happening, even without a Missal. The priest was offering a sacrifice on our behalf and we participated by being present, using the silence to make our personal offerings. It was quite acceptable to pray the Rosary if you so wished. You are correct about the four or five Masses every Sunday morning, and I recall people lined up outside the church, waiting for the next Mass. How many parishes today need five Sunday Masses to accommodate the crowds, even in the most popular N.O. Churches?
Thank you so much for your honesty and for your memory of the reality of what was. There had to be a Vatican II! I am happy for Catholics who have found the TLM to be meaningfully spiritual for them, but it is a mistake for them to judge the Novus Ordo as harmful with God being absent. There is some Latin in the Novus Ordo too. It is dangerous for our faith especially in the crazy world we live in to be divisive. I read one comment that said it was ok to say the rosary during the Mass, no it wasn't - not at the parish I attended! Thank you again.
Thank you for this episode. I am one of the many who came back to Catholicism after i attended my first TLM , only SSPX offers it here on our country (Philippines). By our good Lord's mercy and grace, it has been a Life saving event for us who were already " dead in sin" .
Thank you Father Pagano. Great way to end the topic. We have brothers and sisters that need to start somewhere. Whatever Mass is offered close to them, let us pray they respond with all their heart, mind and straight. God bless you all. I love our Church, and all that is in it according to the call of the Holy Spirit. We have great Priests that shepherd us.
So you said reverend is the factor to tell the TLM is better than the New Mass? What if the people attending New Mass some where in the world is more reverend than some parish with TLM in the US is that counted as your standard of reverend? Do you go by feelings or by reasoning when you make your decision? Do you understand every word in the mass spoken in Latin? Why the Latin is better? Is better mean God in the TLM is a better God or the people there is better than the people attending New Mass? Is the New Mass valid? What considered a valid mass? Do you pray in Latin? Do you talk to God in Latin? Why don't you pray in Hebrew, or the language that Jesus spoke? The receive practice a "NORM" or a "DOCTRINE"? Is this practice revealed to man by the Holy Spirit or base on feelings and reason? Where is the evidence that support your claim?
@@bombaway2029 do you know proper English? I can answer your questions if you want but it's pretty simple. The TLM is simply speaking more reverent, and it takes little intelligence to see that. Maybe order your thoughts a little better, write in proper in English, and compare the Masses. Then come on over to the TLM, we will be happy to introduce real Catholicism to you
@@jacoba7275 Is the current Catechism not "real Catholicism"? I think you looked at the rite and didn't like it so your decision seems final. The TLM rite help you not getting distracted but that is your comfort zone. A lot of people don't have that option. The claim is baseless, as the Protestant claim that Catholics worship Mary. And no matter what others tell them "we don't worship Mary, we venerate her". So is the traditionalists claim that people are irreverent at New Mass. I see some of the things people do just like you. But that is the fault of the people and the priest that involved. And for the validity of the New Mass, there is nothing wrong with it. I don't pay attention only to the priest, of course you have to listen to him to hear what he is saying, either in English or Latin. That doesn't mean you are paying attention to the priest but his words. You don't need to introduce me to the TLM. My family was in the middle of the switch from TLM to the New Mass. As for real Catholicism, tell me something I don't know. Fast an hour before and after communion, observe Holidays of Obligation, sexual union is for procreation only. The ten Commandment. Attacking the rites is not going to solve any thing. If the Magi from the east saw the star from the east, then why they heading to the west? There are too many thing that we don't have answer, but believe, and we obey the Bishops unless it out right heresy or abomination (such as honor Pachamama). Laity is not in the position to criticize or change the order of the mass and come up with blames by conjectures. Christ in the Eucharist at the TLM is the same as Christ in the Eucharist at the New Mass. Reverent or not is between God and that person. You can pray more for them if you see their irreverent. Sinners need God's mercy most. You can not tell me that I am irreverent because I attend the New Mass. If you think the Church will be small and holy and only the Traditionalists are in it then it you right to think so. You are the ownership of you mind. But i see the flaw in that thinking. Only God know man hearts. No one knows God's mind but God. Wait until you get old and don't have memory and knowledge then you will see how other will judge you by your incapable of kneeling or standing at mass. I beg you consider all. May God bless you in this Holy Week.
the first time i have been aware of your program very moved i stoped going to mass when the laten music was dropped and have been singing latin music in a protestant church I am now finding my way back as best i can.
I really do not know when it comes to these matters. I have only very rarely had trouble having reverence at Holy Mass. I do know that I have seen not a few proponents of the Tridentine Mass speak with great pride and with disparage for the ordinary form of the Holy Mass and others speak of ways close to idolizing aspects of the extraordinary form. I have seen people attacking the Pope, Saints, and a valid ecumenical council and division in Christ's Mystical Body around this matter. All That when combined with the accompanying walling off attitude that was the reason Vatican II was needed at all being sometimes alive and well, and I regrettably struggle to disregard these fruits of the movement. That being said, it all saddens me greatly because I am uncertain if I can separate the Latin Extraordinary Holy Mass from all of that. Were it not for these, I likely would be quite fond of it. I pray the Lord break me of this. Through our Blessed Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen In another way though, I think what matters really in the end is the reading of Sacred Scripture, teaching application by the homily (Liturgy of the Word) and the Banquet and Sacrifice of the Holy Lamb of God in the Most Holy Eucharist (Liturgy of the Eucharist). That is principal all the rest ought serve that to the end of worship our Holy Triune God. How the forms have been pitted against one another, that I can not see being from God. That is where I take issue. I would most definitely attend a Latin Holy Mass if someone asked me to come with them, just as I would happily attend a Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Rites if asked or something else like an Ambrosian Rite Holy Mass. I am open to all the legitimate Tradition of Holy Mother Church. I do much prefer the vernacular but that is for only the practical reason that I have a harder time engaging if I do not understand the words. These are merely my humble opinion however, I hope they can be of any form of help.. God bless you!
I don’t mind if it’s just an organ and a choir or cantor. It can be done reverently. But some churches take it overboard. I’ve gone to every church in my area and one(the one my parents were married in 45 yrs ago actually) always has a band now and a big tv screen at front of the church. It was so cringy I almost left in the middle of mass. I honestly don’t know what some of these pastors are thinking!!!!
I should explain the "women" part. Ever see a NO choir with more men than women? With men that can actually sing? Lots of women. Men are not attracted to Barry Manilow style insipid music written by bad composers. In the TLM schola I sing with we have more men than women and have trouble getting women! Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love women but I like to sing music that guys like where I can meet other men with an interest in the faith. It is about brotherhood.
@@paulgman3531 I get your reasoning but I doubt God ever intended women to enjoy sappy, overly-sentimental and banal music, I certainly do not. I much prefer Gregorian Chant, I'm sure Our Lady would agree. It's more a degeneration of the feminine spirit, which is of course naturally oriented towards the world of emotions but as a true nurturer and mother of life, not as a weak, sentimental, moody wreck.
@@icyangel13 I should explain that I do not mean to generalize. Not all women prefer this aweful music, however, a lot do. Let's take the insipid Holy Thursday song "As I Have Done for You". I have never heard a male say that he loves that song. In the TLM, it is the chant Ubi Caritas that is sung during foot washing, if it is even performed during the Mass. Sensible men and women get the point and beauty of these chants. The women who prefer a the As I Have Done song are usually older women who have played in guitar groups with limited vocal abilities. BTW, I do use the guitar in the NO on ocassion, but it is the classical guitar arrangement of the traditional hymns. I also play the organ and prefer to play that instrument, even if it electronic. Men and Women both like good music, however, the majority of men are totally turned off by bad music written by bad composers who write stuff that sounds like romantic ballads, or worse, TV themes, jingles and songs from kiddie shows like My Little Pony.
Our Parish Priest started to meld the good parts from jTLM and NO. He started praying the Liturgy of the Eucharist Ad Orientem on Friday masses. We praise and thank the Lord for our shepherd.
Support The Mass of The Ages on Kickstarter here: bit.ly/Mass_Of_The_Ages
I think the Latin Mass is more reverent than the Norvus Ordo. I think most Catholics today do not believe in the Real Presence anymore because of the lack and weak body language done during the Norvus Ordo Mass. When you attend a Latin Mass, you treat Christ as King, while in the Norvus Ordo you treat Christ as if He is a genie or an entertainer. Norvus Ordo Mass can be reverent though, depends on the priest and the laity.
TIPS ON BEING MORE REVERENT IF ATTENDING A NORVUS ORDO MASS:
1. Dress as if you are attending a Latin Mass. No shorts, women should wear a mantilla. be presentable
2. Sit at the front so you won't get distracted and also so that you will be a good example to other Mass attenders.
3. Eyes on Christ. Do gestures of reverence. Kneel, bow, take communion on the tongue.
4. Don't be noisy while inside the sanctuary
Hi Catholic Talk Show,
Are there any other Rites within the Catholic Church that celebrate their liturgy in 2 distinct and separate forms like how the Roman Rite has the Extraordinary and Ordinary forms?
I'm 74 and used to serve Mass the old way. As I would follow the Mass in my daily missal most priests would routinely skip entire blocks of old Liturgy! When I was in HS we had this priest named Fr. Robert (real name) who actually went through an entire Sunday Mass in an amazing 12 minutes 'cause I clocked him! Priests way back then used to at times babble through the Liturgy not all but some.
Shortly before Novus Ordo people used to whine and moan habitually about scrapping the Latin Mass; once the vanacular Mass set in things starting getting really wild. There is nothing wrong with the 'New Mass' so long as it's celebrated with great dignity aka Pope Benedict XVI's Christmas Mass; New Mass great dignity.
I was overwhelmed with sadness when I attended my first latin mass. I felt like I was robbed of something beautiful and holy for 19 years of my life. I couldn't understand why anyone would do away with it for something so much more watered down
Absolutely! My husband and I have returned to our Catholic faith after a 40 yr absence - since our Catholic school days. I attended a NO mass at the invitation of a neighbor friend and knew instantly that it wasn't for me, but didn't yet understand why. Then we began Adult catechism classes at an FSSP parish a yr ago. There, I discovered the reverence that was missing from my neighbor's parish. Still today, upon receiving the Holy Communion during the Latin Mass, I return to my pew and kneel to pray, and I struggle to fight back the tears of gratitude nearly every time. I certainly don't wish to be pegged as "the Cryer ". I thank The Lord, over and over for leading back to him and to this glorious Mass and our wonderful priests. My husband and I were confirmed in August.
@@peace-and-quiet welcome home Diane
Felt the same way. Bugnini was an evil man
@@dnznznfjsnsnsms9996 He was a free mason.
Peter you have said it just like I feel. I’m in my 70’s and I barely remember the Latin mass. It’s bringing back memories that I have forgotten. It was so holier and we could really feel the Lord present during the consecration and receiving our Lord on the tongue kneeling! I’m in Canada and there is no mass that comes close to the traditional mass. I watch it on my iPad and long for it. I feel that I’ve been robed of the holy mass. My children do not go to church and I feel that they would not have left it if the Latin mass still remained. Let’s pray ., 🙏🙏🙏🙏
Older priests and bishops often say that the youth will not appreciate the Tridentine Mass. Have they seen how many young people are attending it? Almost 80% of attendees are the young.
Adrian Spencer Elizalde Yep!!! The biggest distraction at my parish TLM is all the crying babies and toddlers lol
And the other 20% are babies!
The Fssp church in Houston overcrowded and more young than old
@Apostolic Nuncio to Kekistan its less about reverence by the preist and more about the prayers and it's meanings.
I think this is true. I mean, it is cool to pray in Latin. I do try it from time to time. I love the Pater Noster.
Personally, I prefer the traditional Latin Mass. I’ll never forget attending my first TLM. The reverence and focus was surreal.
That's a good way to put it. Hopefully more communities will pop up in our dioceses.
“Personally, I …” is redundant.
It’s better.
I’m a cradle Catholic that have known no other than Novus Ordo until I started attending TLM during the Covid lockdown and since then I will never look back. TLM it is for me, I’m in LOVE!
I love this comment!
God bless After I attended 1 TLM 2yrs ago I also never went back to novus ordo!
Yes!
Couldn’t agree more!
Remember though just because you & the rest of you preferred the Latin Mass, it doesn't make the Novous Ordo mass less (however way) than the Latin Mass. Not saying that you think this way, but I'm simply saying this towards those Catholics that seems to minimize the new mass as if it is inferior form or expression of the mass & criticize Vatican II bec of it, sometimes to the point of throwing insults to Pope Pius XXIII & Pope Paul VI
I was an altar boy pre and post Vatican II. The Latin mass was much more reverential and respectful. Communion was placed on the tongue by a priest with a paten under the chin to collect any fallen particles of the body and blood of Christ. Weekday masses were 20-30 minutes and Sunday masses were 45-75 minutes. Women wore head coverings and everyone had missals. Every church should offer at least one Sunday Latin mass.
I have attended both and I prefer the TLM because it is so much more reverent and beautiful.
What makes the TLM more reverent than the Novus Ordo Mass.
@@ryanskol83 I don't know if for me it's because it's in Latin or if it is quieter, lending itself to deeper contemplation, more formal feeling.
@@ryanskol83 you kneel to receive and don't touch the eucharist. The priest faces the tabernacle. The music reverberates in your bones. The whole thing is less about you and more about God. It's less about a talking point and more about worshipping.
Ryan Skolasinski the silence and respect that is observed before and during Mass; the reception of Christ in a humble and vulnerable position (kneeling and on the tongue); when the priest faces the altar and shepherds his flock to look at (and focus on) Christ, as opposed to it being a Mass about me (the congregation); the music which sharply contrasts our modern music and enables us to more easily ‘leave this world’ and enter into a higher spiritual realm (no banjo playing); no applause at Mass; no opportunity for a priest to change up the Mass in order to entertain or fit his personal tastes, etc.
@ryan skolasinski have you ever been to one, if not you definitely have to go. As soon as you do you will know the difference. Most of the time they are in bigger churches that still have the statues, the art, the stained-glass which already makes you feel like you are in heaven. The liturgy is more reverent, the holiness of the Latin, the priest facing ad orientum, the incense, the greogorian chant, and most of all you receive our Lord on your knees and on the mouth. It just is more reverent.
Since my conversion 10 years ago I have only known and attended the Norvos Ordo mass, but within the last year I have been learning more about the history and tradition of our Church and it has instilled a desire within me to want to experience the mass the way many of the great saints experienced it. I live in an area where they do not offer the extraordinary form of the mass, so I have not had the opportunity to have that experience. All I know is that there is a reverence that is lacking in all the parishes here. Talking, dancing, horrible music, and most importantly, abuse of the blessed Sacrament. I'm definitely not even close to being a perfect Catholic, but I do not believe that when the Church was established by our Lord, this is what He desired.
Eddie DeLaCruz : I am also a convert (1960). I was going into Religious Life, until Pope John XXlll convened the Second Vatican Council! A lot of us had a bad feeling! When Pope Paul Vl made the final assault on Holy Mother Church, I had to leave!! I’m still gobsmacked that they were CANONIZED!!! IMHO??……It’s a slap on Our Lord’s Face!
Eddie I hope you find a traditional mass its beautiful, much better than the English mass
@Eddie DelaCruz If you can't find one locally, there are many online TLM's. You can get the Eucharist at the Novus Ordo and then watch the TLM online. I suggest the St. Cantius channel on TH-cam. Also, the english Ad Orientum Mass is also becoming popular. It's basically the TLM, but in English. God Bless you.
Keep searching, just search google "Latin Mass near me"
Report the abuses to your Bishop! BTW! The Lord said His Mass at a table surrounded by his apostles not at a TLM!
I am housebound disabled Veteran and I watch a Mass online even before the Covid-19 lockdown. I started at the local Parish before I became housebound. Really couldn't connect with it so I looked around to find something that touched me spiritually. Stumbled across one of the Churches in my relative area and they have a Latin Mass every Sunday. And WoW ! I can't even put into words what I felt after watching that Mass. Fortunately, I have found them and now my heart sings. I am a cradle Catholic and went to parochial school so I grew up with the Novus Ordo Can't wait for the movie "Mass of The Ages", looking forward to it. Father, beautiful and eloquent closing prayer! Thank you.
Amen 🙏
I do prefer the Latin mass. However. I started attending mass in a Norvus Ordo Church (as it's the only church near me that is currently open during COVID) where the visiting priest from Kenya is quite wonderful, a month later the original Priest came back (I've never seen him) performed the mass in English but he faced the altar...he faced our Lord! it made me want to cry and they USE the Communion Rail ❤. I love this church and my Priests.
Wow🙏
Yeah, the Novus Ordo with a traditional form can be really powerful too. I know what you're talking about.
There is No Traditional Latin Mass in Kenya you could be from Nigeria.
Allan.
@@allansimoes8338 At my former parish there was a priest from Nigeria learning the Latin Mass and he has since returned to Nigeria, I believe. So, I'd expect the Latin Mass will in Nigeria shortly, if it wasn't already. :-)
You have what the Novus Ordo should be
The novus ordo Mass, for me, is too protestant and lacks focus on the Eucharist. At times the elevation is so quick, that if you blink, you miss it.
@C L Amen to that!
The music in a Novus Ordo mass is incredibly watered down also
@@itsnando20 Yes, and many of the songs are of the "kumbaya" type where I am and very saccharine.
@C L At the Second Vatican Council other Christians outside the Catholic Church were invited to send OBSERVERS to the council and acceptance came from both the Eastern Orthodox Church and Protestant denominations AS INTERNAL OBSERVERS - but these observers were NOT ALLOWED to cast votes in the Approbation of the Concillar Documents.
At the end of your comment you stated you are not protestant, so I understand from that you think you are a Catholic but a true Catholic of faith would follow the teachings of the Church and not persecute it. If you cannot follow the rules of any organisation you belong to, why belong. We should all respect others religion, beliefs and what form of mass they prefere to attend.
I agree with this statement, Novus Ordo is too protestant.
I wasn't introduced to the Latin Mass until I was 14 or 15. I learned how to serve it not long after I first learned of its existence, in addition to studying the differences between the two rites for a high school theology assignment. I didn't attend the TLM much in college, but not long after I graduated the local parish changed the Sunday schedule to have Latin Mass at 12:30 on Sunday afternoon, so I started going every week, and I haven't stopped unless circumstances preclude me. It's been an incredible blessing to me, and it's changed how I believe significantly and for the better.
In December 2019, I was serving Latin Mass on the First Sunday of Advent and during the Offertory, the choir sang the most beautiful polyphonic arrangement of Veni, Veni Emmanuel that I have ever heard. Never before had I heard something so beautiful at Mass, and I seriously doubt I will ever hear something so beautiful at a Novus Ordo. Something about the Latin Mass lends itself to the presence of such music in all its ethereal sublimity.
My church Novus Ordo sang O come O come Emmanuel on Sunday, also it was organ music
I attend both forms of the Mass. They are both valid forms of worship but personally I prefer the TLM.
Is there a homily?
@@richardmagale8405 Yes
Well said
I heard Dr. Taylor Marshall say once if someone asked how your marriage was going, would you reply back "Well, it's valid." Why would you go to a valid Mass versus an exceptionally beautifully reverent Mass (that's also valid of course :)
@@JeffSaleBoat the thing is though most people don't understand latin, so if they go to an english NO mass, they'll understand it and it's valid. The latin mass may be beautiful, but I had no idea what they were saying when i went to one ahaha
The Latin Mass unites us through place and time. We are together over all the continents and hear the same word through time, over the centuries. My Latin-English Missal broadened my education. I've always given that missal credit for helping me understand new words and technical terminology. It's been something I've regretted losing since it went out of usage. In 1962 I was 14 years old.
The Latin Mass went out in 1965 the first year the Mass was in English.
@@catholiccrusader5328 Indeed. I referenced 1962 as the commencement of Vatican II.
Patricia I got a St Andrews missal which has Latin/ English so much depth in it
@@mariemiller8740 Thank you, Marie. The St.Andrews missal is on my list now.
I am a cradle catholic and attended the NO until I discovered the beauty of the TLM. My family and I now attend the TLM and have never looked back!
I have attended Novus Ordo all my life and have had spiritual growth but I attended TLM and all of the sudden I can’t see the Novus Ordo the same way anymore. It’s just that TLM has some power of the Holy Spirit that draws me to Christ ever more, less distraction and has real clarity and don’t want to lose that. It’s not that I feel better about it but a realization what the mass should be like. I just wish every parish just have at least one TLM.
They’re not the same, not even close.
The TLM is Holy, reverent and beautiful. The new world order mass is none of those.
I actually didn't know that there were Latin masses I could attend. I am excited to attend a Latin mass for the first time. Thank you for this show, I have learned so much already. God Bless!
I went to the Latin mass every day from the 8th grade until I graduated. I loved it so much. I was away from the church for over 40 years. When I went back to church, it was an unbelievable experience for me. I do not like the mass as it is now. So many traditions are now gone and it's over in minutes. I refuse to take communion from the Eucharist Minister as I feel that the priest is the only one that should touch the Eucharist and I also still take it on my tongue. Guess I'm just to old to change. Love your show.
This was THE BEST show yet. I don't have any TLMs near me, but would very much like to attend. My biggest desire is to become more reverent... for the Mass and everyone attending to be more reverent.
I went to my first high Latin mass and it was so beautiful so many young families, incense, Gregorian chants with an organ. It was powerful, mystic, and lovely
I attend Latin mass on Sundays and the new mass on weekdays. I love and appreciate them both!! They both are wonderful
i leave my faith for a 10 years then suddenly i attend to the latin mass... i get my faith back and i love attending the Lating Mass bring me so much peace. im felling more close to Jesus in Latin Mass and the gregoriant chunt is the best peacefull fullfill music
So, I'm currently in RCIA and don't have a TLM within 150 miles. We are traditionally minded folks, and it's interesting to note that even as "irreverent" as folks claim the Novus Ordo is, it's so much more reverent than the Protestant churches I've attended. Guys, these conversations are so confusing for folks in my position and this conversation was much more charitable than many I've heard. So, thank you and be careful. I'm not a Protestant anymore, and I don't want to be "Catholic-lite." I believe in the real presence, and it breaks my heart to not be able to participate yet. I have an Indian priest who is a very serious and holy man, and he has personally taken over my family's catechesis. Pray for me brothers.
I converted from aethesim/new age spiritualism 3 years ago, and I started out at a NO church with a reverent Nigerian priest. It was a great blessing and grace to receive conversion. When I found out the NO mass wasn't even the mass that was celebrated by the saints I have grown to admire and love, and I was appalled. I started praying to God to open up a way for me to go to the TLM, and 6 months later He moved me to a different city for work, and to a neighborhood 2 miles from a diocesan TLM parish. Now that I am 15 months in to the TLM, I can tell you that my heart breaks for what has been lost in the Catholic Church. The NO consecration & sacraments are valid, but they are just a shell of the traditional sacraments. All of sacraments and rites have been stripped bare. But as St Peter said "Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life." There is only One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - even in her most crippled form, she is the only one.
I bet your priest is awesome! I'm praying one Pater Noster for you, your family, and your Pastor.
@@hl1377 :
You are so right.
Welcome to the Church!
@hl1377. St Paul VI, St John Paul II, St Teresa of Calcutta, etc
I just started attending the FSSP parish in Providence RI and it's awe inspiring! I love it and want to have my future children receive sacraments there. I was born in raised in a Novus Ordo parish but I strayed away...started going to TLM last year and won't turn back. The Latin Mass is deepening my faith in respect for the Eucharist.
There is no superior Mass; only the wrapping is different - the disposition of the heart, the participation, the listening, the living, the reverence, the humility, the sincerity, the love in one word, our attitude is the most important in both cases and one should remain free to choose whichever Mass one desires to participate in and no one should look down on another Catholic telling Him One mas is better than the other. Please do not mess around with fragile consciences teaching that one is pleasing to God and the other one does not, that one is good and the other is bad. There is no truth in that and It may damage a person's conscience forever. I respect all opinions except those which are not inspired by LOVE. There is the "Magisterium of the Church" to guide us, as well as the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
There is no superior Jesus and a lesser Jesus. It's the same Jesus offered to the Father in every Mass. Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. Amen
The Latin Mass is way more reverent and many more efficacious prayers.
There's no comparison!!!
been to different liturgies…. I still prefer Novus Ordo. my late father who grew up attending TLM said he would not go back and will stay with NO.
I made a pledge to Cameron's project..Looking forward to its completion. God Bless!
Honestly I love both, the Latin mass I think I prefer, but when the Novus Ordo is celebrated reverently it’s actually quite a beautiful mass as much as the Latin.
The fact that you must add “ properly” proves the point that the new mass is a farce. It promotes clown masses, cookies and juice, one sacrilege and heresy after another. It desecrates the Son of God. No. It it unequivocally a disgrace to God. No altar rails. Communion in hand. No respect. Heresy and desecration. No apologies for the traditional Catholic Faith!
I choose the Traditional Latin Mass! I pray there will be more 🙏 of the Catholic church that will offer the LTM! ❤
I was growing up luv Latin Mass missed this now I feel lost in going to church thanks for sharing
Latin Mass by far is more complete.....it is coming the new revolution I feel! I am new convert into Catholic (year ago) and quickly decide to become TLM member after seen an very holy and devoted friend (I believe she can be a saint) I and my wife took the decision to go mass everyday, pray the rosary everyday and also try to go confessions often (per month but trying to go per week is the goal)...we believe Latin Mass can restore the church yes! The truth presences of our lord, the reverence, the .... I can give my life for Jesús any moment? Let's ask us that question everyday and we will know where our faith is now....God bless you all.
Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest also celebrates the Tridentine Mass.
And they love Mozart!
I attend one in Ct.
@Tyler Booska they just really love the pomp and are very posh.
@@timothyfreeman97 This is vvv bold yet very true lol
We drive two hours each way to attend our closest TLM. We are in the process of moving closer for this Mass. And, if this Mass stops, we will move again, God-Willing. Out of my family, my husband and I are the only practicing Catholics. My 4 siblings, 30 cousins, aunts, uncles, and my 3 children are no longer practicing Catholics.
Following this from Australia 🇦🇺 .
I really enjoy these discussions.
I personally have clicked the reset button on my Catholicity.
There's an emptiness for me attending the NO. My late Father always said, "you don't go to Mass to pray, you go to pray the Mass". I hope this makes sense...I can pray anywhere, anytime and have had many a challenging encounter.
Reflecting on Cain and Abel from the OT is the NO the best we can do or is the TLM a more worthy expression of our worship, reverence and offering?
With the NO have we lost the sense of the sacred and sacrificed too much?
Thanks to the Catholic talk show I’m learning more about the Latin mass. Wish there was one around here where I live .
This is a quote from Bishop Strickland from a couple of years ago.....
"Ways to receive Our Lord as King of the Universe…read and reflect on the Sunday Scriptures, plan your whole weekend around receiving your King, wear your best garments, spend time in quiet, kneel to receive Him, receive Him on the tongue, offer silent time of thanks after mass."
"Praying before Christ in the Blessed Sacrament drew me to this rite. I find my spiritual life has skyrocketed since I became a bishop and especially as I have centered my focus on our Eucharistic Lord."
--Bishop Joseph Strickland
I am a convert. Before I became Catholic, all I knew about the Mass was the Latin Mass from Hollywood. Bells of St Mary, Song of Bernadette, Keys to the Kingdom, The Nun, even Change of Habit with Elvis. When I began my road back to the Church, I got the Mass in English, standing, Eucharist in the palm. I knew it was not like what I'd seen, but I was fine with it. I went to a Latin Mass in Ireland and I liked it. It was early in the morning and it was more quiet and more contemplative. But really, I feel totally okay doing either. And my priest will do either in the palm or on the tongue and there are a lot of people who walk up and kneel to take Communion. I just like knowing that I can go to any church and I can go to Mass and find my place, do the responses and take Communion, confident in the propriety of the Mass and the Real Presence of Christ.
Thanks to your informative program.
I really enjoyed this show! Our family used to move between TLM and NO Mass but during the summer lockdowns of last year we began to migrate more and more towards our FSSP parish. It's been a joyful experience for us with really and truly shepherd minded priests. I was pleasantly surprised to hear the discourse here which actually had very little conflict. It gives me so much hope for what the future direction of the Church may be, by the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Also I wanted to say what a beautiful prayer at the end. Thank you, Father!!
Our family is very excited for Mass of the Ages to be released!
God's blessings upon all!! ♥️🙏🏻
Well.... I grew up with the Latin Mass, but in my early teens, the modern Mass began. And I actually like the modern Mass and was happy by the changes with no desire to go back. My current church has beautiful Mass, very devout, and the piano and organ music and singing is beautiful. Call me strange, but I am fine with the modern form.
not strange at all. There's a lot of beautiful things about the new mass - especially how we can also drink the blood of Christ.
I prefer being a participant in the Mass & know what I am saying. I prefer Novus Ordo. I remember my parents & grandparents praying their private rosaries during the Latin Mass. They had no idea what was being said. They always told me that was between Jesus & the Priest. TLM has beautiful music but again I prefer being an active participant in the vernacular.
Apostolic Nuncio to Kekistan you are right I am a boomer but I am not a modernist. It is sad so many rad trads can only throw out accusations. I love God, the Catholic Church & it’s teachings. Novus Ordo is a valid way to celebrate the sacrifice of the Mass. Every Sunday I attend a Novus Ordo mass that is just as reverent, holy, & uplifting as the TLM. I will pray the Holy Spirit softens your heart & erases the contempt you have toward your Catholic brothers & sisters. Praise Jesus.
TLM for us! We are fighting for a TLM in our area and have been for years. The only one on our diocese is once a month and two hours away. Only two in our entire state. 😭
Im a Syro Malabar Catholic. We have East Syriac Liturgy. But when my fellow friends told about TLM i curiously searched for that. But in India TLM is rare. Not in our diocese. More than 2 hours journey from my home. Now we are going to demand TLM even though we are Eastrn Catholic. Our liturgy is very beautiful too. I really want to participate in TLM like you.
I LOVE that I am hearing this from the Catholic Talk Show. You guys have come so far. The TLM is the future!
3 years later it seems things have gotten worse. I’m assuming this comment was made before Traditionis custodes?
Yes but TC shows they know they are losing.
A Pew survey found that 1% of Catholics attend the TLM and 4% of dioceses offer the TLM. These statistics are for the US only.
While living in Europe for many years; I always found myself in church. Great architecture and history. The thing I like about attending Mass in a different language is the rhythm of Mass. I know what is said even if I don’t know the language. With the rhythm of mass you can attend mass any where in the world.
1:15 Yes Fr. Rich! We want to come back for The Eucharist!! I personally came back during Lent. Still here brothers!
Oh my goodness! Thank you for this video...this really hit home for me. I am new to attending the TLM. I was in awe in my first experience and understand the greatness of our lord through this mass. In total reverence, I feel closer to experiencing the glory of God. Tradition is definitely the foundation of obedience and reverence, I believe. God bless you all.
Thanks so much for having Cameron on your show. I attend Holy Family in Dayton and absolutely love it! It feels like home to me, it feels like heaven touching earth.
I'm of course into Tridentine Latin Mass. With all of my passion, I support to organize Tridentine Latin Mass here in Bandung, Indonesia. We have a small community here.
I have fallen in love with the Latin mass! I feel at home! So special!
I’ve noticed that those who take their faith more seriously and live a more orthodox and devout Catholic life all prefer the TLM. All my friends who are Catholic-lite (i.e. don’t really believe in the real Presence, view their faith as an one ‘accessory’ in their life, the more cultural Catholic, etc.) seem to all prefer the NO because it’s easier, shorter, and comes off as less serious.
Any true Catholic should be willing to sacrifice 2 hours of their week (2/168 hours per week) worshipping their Creator. Mass should cater to the serious believers and not be a place to primarily catechize non-believers (that’s what school and Bible studies are for).
That’s not true. It’s a judgement you cannot make. Only God knows who is truly devoted internally.
My post was meant to reflect what I have personally experienced. From talking to my friends and family, the ones who self-admit having doubts about their faith, self-admit their trouble believing in the real Presence, and who are more ‘cultural Catholics’ that go to Mass and talk about how they wish it was shorter so they can watch their sports shows, all seem to prefer the NO. In contrast, all my friends and family who spend their free time reading Scripture, work hard to follow the traditions of the Church and personally express a deep love for their Catholic faith (and live it out in a real way) all seem to prefer the TLM. This is not meant to be taken as empirical evidence, but just an interesting coincidence. I hope that makes a bit more sense.
Guy, I'm gonna agree with Jordan on this one... too many catholics do not believe in the real presence you sound like you could be 1 of those Catholic-lites. He wasn't making a judgment he was making a comment from what he has seen; what many of us have seen. You judged him...🤔
R C you just judged me. You don’t even know me. You didn’t even ask, if I believed in the real presence...
So you know, I do. Which mass it comes out of, makes no difference, both are valid. It’s really nothing more than personal taste.
Maybe pay more attention to your own heart. Not judge hearts if others. That’s Gods job. Way above our pay grade.
R C what you and Jordan suggest, Catholics that don’t believe in your opinions, are somehow unknowing or mislead. Not as good as TLM Catholics.....tsk tsk......again above your pay grades.
LATIN the language ALL the Demons fear and tremble over according to Catholic Exorcists...
I think it's because Jesus spoke it. And by my own logic demons would also fear Greek and Aramaic.
@SkillsDND they used to be god's chosen people. Now everyone is who's evangelized
@SkillsDND the Latin mass wasn't in Latin because of the Roman empire. It was Latin and still is because it was the common tongue for the first 1900 years of Christianity.
@SkillsDND that's why I initially also said demons could hate the languages of Greek and Aramaic too. And you're right, Hebrew could also be added to the list
@SkillsDND because Jesus never spoke those languages.
I was born in the 70's, so I only know the Novus Ordo (it's pretty much all I've been exposed to all my life). I used to think that we could just celebrate the Novus Ordo more reverently but I've abandoned this reasoning lately. There's just waaaaaaaay too much freedom and variety allotted to Parishes; and this is all done under the auspices and authority of the Bishops (who do nothing) - all based on the document, "Sacrosanctum Concilium", which allows for such variety and ambiguity when celebrating the Novus Ordo (read for yourself ). In once sentence it appears to preserve tradition, and then in the very next sentence it sanctions the opposite. In a typical Novus Ordo Parish there's more of an emphasis on 'feelings', 'participation', and 'emotional experience'. while we all gather around a table and, ''eat a communal meal." - I think this is what is imbibed just by visual observation.
*If you read Article 7. of the 1969 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM), when the New Mass was first published; there was no mention of the Mass being a Sacrifice (not even once), but says, "The Lord's Supper, or Mass, is the sacred meeting or congregation of the people of God assembled, the priest presiding, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord. For this reason, Christ's promise applies eminently to such a local gathering of holy Church: 'Where two or three come together in my name, there am I in their midst' (Mt. **18:20**)."*
*So Transubstantiation, Real Presence, a Propitiatory Sacrifice offered to God for our sins, and the intrinsic value of the Eucharistic Sacrifice by a Priest, independent of the presence of the assembly, are not mentioned at all. (and the GIRM was a theological and doctrinal exposition of the New Mass).* After there was some objection to the New Mass by 'conservatives', the revisers tried to deny that the GIRM was a theological or doctrinal statement about the New Mass; *however, the reformers themselves had repeatedly said that the GIRM would explain the doctrinal and theological principles behind the New Mass.*
*So what did they do? In 1970 the Vatican came out with a 'revised version' of the 1969 GIRM; but all they did was insert Tridentine terms in Article 7 alongside the protestantized terms of the 1969 GIRM; but the Mass itself was exactly the same.* So there was no real change at all to the actual theological and doctrinal elements that made up the Novus Ordo. The same protestantized theological and doctrinal elements of the 1969 version were still present in the 1970 version because it was the exact same Mass. .
*There seems to be two competing theologies, between the average Novus Ordo Parish and a TLM Parish; and it even seems as if there are two different Churches existing within the same organizational structure.* The Novus Ordo has always been so protestantized and banal; it would be unrecognizable and completely foreign to any faithful Catholic in previous centuries. The average Novus Ordo Parish (with very few exceptions) no longer holds to Catholic orthodoxy.
ultimouomo11 nailed it perfectly. The rubrics are too lax and when people don’t follow it, they treat it like it’s no big deal. But as said in the mass of the ages promo video, how we worship affects our view of the Lord and him in the Eucharist.
Agree completely. The Novus Ordo Masses, especially if the Priest is lax, make it seem as if the Mass is merely a commemoration of The Sacrifice, not an actual Sacrifice.
@SkillsDND the same can be said about all the pro-novus ordoees who question the wisdom of the Church Fathers and all the Councils that preceeded V2. Especially the Council of Trent.
@SkillsDND You want to talk about "questioning the wisdom of those whom God has ordained'? Okay. The document on the New Mass states that Latin is to be retained, and that Gregorian Chant is to have pride of place in the Liturgy. So why do you and your parish question the will of God on this matter and disobey?
I wish we had a Mass that more closely adhered to the rich tradition of the Church but could incorporate some of the benefits of the new Mass. A nice bridge between the both. I think a properly done NO is not that bad and would inspire more orthodoxy and faith in the people.
It's impossible because the Church leaves priests to flex the rules. If they made no room for changes or extra stuff within the NO, then you would have something good.
IMPOSSIBLE!! The Novus Ordo and Orthodoxy are 180* apart!
That's true. I guess what I mean is keep some of the prayers of the NO and perhaps the readings in vernacular, but put back majority Latin, ad orientum, gregorian chant, and altar rails.
Jordan L I am used to think that too. I converted from Pentecostalism in 2010. I stumbled into the EF (never heard of it, no one told me anything about it) 2015. I didn’t want to add to the divisiveness so I tried to remain in both parishes (my NOM & new one, ICKSP). But the more I learned about the theology of it all the more I couldn’t attend the NOM. Being so Pentecostal and converting with a mindset of “fine Lord, I will become Catholic but don’t want to be too Catholic..” smh. To now I will only attend the TLM is a HUGE change in me that I didn’t expect I’d ever see in me. The EF is transformative. It’s hard to remain neutral, just go with the flow...whatever that flow is in your local parish. I realized just how much the NOM allows the parish priest to run it all the way “he” wants to. That it can’t be trusted to remain reverent, etc. They can even choose their own Eucharistic prayers. The Confiteor is different. The missal was basically gutted like the Protestant Reformation did with the Bible, taking out what “they” didn’t like. Therefore, it’s impossible for the NOM to be as rich with the proper guardrails, unfortunately. I used to think that was so uncharitable to say and think...until I learned liturgical history and still learning. But i do agree that the NOM is valid and licit, it just made me feel like I didn’t convert out of Protestantism and did nothing for me. It actually hindered my spiritual growth. For me, the EF changed my entire life and being (i struggled a lot with my marriage, modesty, purity, anger, etc and now my marriage has never been better and so many examples like this...i was in chaos and didn’t know it till the EF). So, I now share my liturgical journey on my own little TH-cam page for simple regular lay people like myself. ☺️ Here’s one: th-cam.com/video/i27dUtgzZsc/w-d-xo.html
15 Reasons Why I Am Growing Through the Extraordinary Form (TLM)
What are the benefits of the new Mass?
When discussing about if Latin is important in itself, I'm surprised no one mentioned that Latin, Hebrew and ancient Greek (all now dead languages) were nailed to the cross, thus making them sacred.
Actually, they discuss the titulus in their video on facts about the crucifix:
th-cam.com/video/rrdI16xLY-o/w-d-xo.html
That's so interesting and true. That's why we have Hebrew-Amen, Greek-Kyrie Eleison, and Latin during the TLM.
They were simply the languages of those times.
A very good discussion. I take that back. A most excellent discussion. Each gentleman and Father weighed in fabulously.
Born in the late 60's I grew up with the, new at the time, Novus Ordo. My parish used the alter rails, with communion on the tongue, until around 1979. After my first year of high school we moved, and my family stopped attending Mass. I did not return to the Church until around 2000 with my wife, and were are blessed to have come back to a reverent, Novus Ordo parish, with outstanding priests, and perpetual adoration. I have been spared almost all of the liturgical abuse horror stories associated with the Novus Ordo. Our parish now has both NO and TLM masses. I love them both. I love the beauty, reverence, and especially the music of the High Mass. But, I also love the simplicity of a well said NO Mass, and I love hearing the words of the Eucharistic prayers in English. And, while I largely prefer the old liturgical calendar, I do really like the way the new cycle of readings works.
Love your program always informative! God Bless you all!🙏🏻
I feel that had I been raised under the TLM I wouldn’t have left the church for decades. I was an altar boy for 10 years in the Novus Ordo and all I remember how we were taught one thing and then things would change. Growing up it was just confusion over and over. TLM is slowly bringing me back.
Latin is the Official Language of the Latin Rite within the Catholic Church, as Greek is the Official Language of the Byzantine Rite. We have ancien Catholic Rites that were never rooted in Latin and actually preceded Latin. The New Testament was written in Greek, the first ecumenical Councils were in Greek, the Language of Constantinople was Greek, etc. Slavonic (St. Cyril and St. Methodius) is the Official Language of the Slave Catholic churches in communion with the Supreme Pontiff without carrying Latin as the language of their churches. The Pope is not only the Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church but he is also specifically the Patriarch of the Latin church. In Canon Law the Catholic Church is composed by 23 churches Sui Iuris with different Liturgical Rites. You were baptized in the Latin Rite, may not be the case for another Catholic.
@JohnBelz But it is a very important clarification, because many Catholics baptized in the Latin Rite reduce the whole Catholic Church just to one Rite and one sacred language when, in fact, there are many. When Russia will convert and come back in full communion with the Pope - as predicted in Fatima - they will still keep their Byzantine Liturgy in Russian and, married men, according with the Canon Law for Eastern Churches, will still be able to be ordained as deacons and priests, because also Celibacy is a discipline limited to the Latin Rite in Canon Law.
Paolo Parodi The Jewish Passover have been dropped out of the Novus Ordo.
Adorientum means no talk show host style priests. His total focus is on Christ!
Christ is in the mind and hearts of those being made ready to receive him. Not in a wall.
@@Zematus737 Christ is truly present Body Blood Soul and Divinity in the Tabernacle. Even if you are a great living Saint like Saint Francis, or Saint Padre Pio, the presence of Christ is infinitely greater in the Tabernacle then in your heart. Since the Tabernacle is in the wall, Christ is in the wall and so we face it to worship Him. And if you're not in a state of grace, Christ is not in your heart. So either way, it makes far more sense to face Christ in the Tabernacle in the wall then to be focused on yourself.
@@Steve_Milo When the priest elevates the host, does it make any sense, while he holds the king in his hands, to extend it towards itself? When they prepare the Eucharist, do they not empty the tabernacle? So what then is he elevating the host towards? Think, seriously, if it is at all right in the mind or your heart for the priest to elevate the host towards the altar then. Does it make any sense for the king to be extended towards anything or be to presented as a wave offering lifted above the heads of the people so that all could see as a fellowship offering? Has it become normal to all of you that you extend towards the altar the sacrifice? Which is greater, the throne or the one who sits on it? Admit that the most central and holy act of the mass in the old rite has been wrong for hundreds of years in this single gesture! The Novus Ordo is superior in this aspect alone, which is the greatest matter in the entire ceremony.
@@Zematus737 @Hugo G. my friend, you make good logical points that flow well, but they are all wrong because they are based upon a false premise that the purpose of the Mass is a "fellowship offering" or even for the people. Another point you make that is wrong I will explain at the end, and that is the Novus Ordo is superior to the Latin Mass. Neither rite of the Mass is superior to each other in Sacramental Grace, the Novs Ordo is equal to the Latin Mass, and to the other approved rites of the Mass, Carmelite, Benedictine, etc. None are superior or inferior, but equal.
If you understand the true purpose of the Mass, then everything done in both the Latin Mass, and the Novus Ordo (when the rubrics are followed) makes sense. The purpose of the Mass is two fold, first, it is not offered to or for the people, as a fellowship, or anything like that. The Mass is not an additional sacrifice after the Sacrifice Christ performed by his Crucifixion and death. Christ is not being crucified again in each Mass. The Mass is offered to God the Father and it goes outside of time into the Eternal Sacrifice Christ made on the Cross. Christ's death on the cross is called the Eternal Sacrifice because he is literally God, the second person of the Trinity, so His divine nature is outside of time and so it is before God the Father for all eternity, just as the moment it occurred during time 2,000 years ago.
So each and every Mass ties into the Eternal Sacrifice offered to God the Father to become one with the Eternal Offering made by God the Son to God the Father for the remission of our sins.
When the Priest elevates the host, he is not raising it up so we can adore it, though that is a joyful benefit I love doing, that is not the point of the Elevation. The point of the Elevation is the Priest offering God the Son to God the Father, lifting him up above his head towards Heaven, and towards the alter because the purpose of the altar is to offer sacrifice. Just as a bull or lamb is raised to an alter to be sacrificed in the old Jewish Rite, Christ, who is the Lamb of God, is offered by the Priest to the altar so it can be raised up to God the Father, again, joining into the Eternal Sacrifice of the Cross 2,000 years ago. Another point of the Elevation is symbolism, just as Christ was lifted up towards God the Father in Heaven on a cross, the Priest lifts Christ (who is truly present) up to God the Father who is in Heaven.
I will address your questions in the next post.
@@Zematus737
Now to address your questions:
1. When the priest elevates the host, does it make any sense, while he holds the king in his hands, to extend it towards itself?
Answer: The priest is not offering Christ the King, to Christ the King. As you said, that doesn't make sense. The priest is offering Christ the King to God the Father.
2. When they prepare the Eucharist, do they not empty the tabernacle? So what then is he elevating the host towards?
Answer: Sometimes the tabernacle is empty because the Hosts inside of it are removed to be distributed to the people. Sometimes the tabernacle is not empty and will have a consecrated Host in it used for Adoration, in which case the rubrics of the Mass state that genuflection to the tabernacle should be performed when passing before it, if it has a consecrated Host in it. If the tabernacle is empty of any Host, then the rubrics state that no genuflection should be performed to the tabernacle. This is unfortunately rarely remembered in the Novus Ordo. Again, the priest is elevating the Host to the altar as an entrance into the Eternal Sacrifice performed by the Son to the Father.
3. Has it become normal to all of you that you extend towards the altar the sacrifice?
Answer: Yes, this is perfectly normal and has been normal for thousands of years before the birth of Christ, and after the birth of Christ. The purpose of the altar is for a sacrifice and this is a universal recognition in all religions, even pagan. The Jews offered animals to God on an altar, Pagans offered animals to their false gods, Zeus for example, on altars. Catholics offer God the Son truly present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity to God the Father on an altar.
4. Which is greater, the throne or the one who sits on it?
Answer: It is a rhetorical question, but the obvious answer is the one who sits on the throne is greater. Mary is called the Throne of God because baby Jesus sat on her lap. Jesus is superior to Mary.
5. Point you make "Admit that the most central and holy act of the mass in the old rite has been wrong for hundreds of years in this single gesture!"
Answer: The most central and holy act of the Mass has been done correctly for hundreds of years. In fact, it is also correctly done in the Novus Ordo as well. This is because the rubrics of the Novus Ordo call for the Priest to face the altar, but the Priests have been facing the people instead because the people demanded it, wanting the attention to be on themselves.
6. Point you make "The Novus Ordo is superior in this aspect alone, which is the greatest matter in the entire ceremony."
Answer: The Novus Ordo is not superior to any other rite of the Mass, and none of the other rites are superior to the Novus Ordo. All are equal in Sacramental Grace. There are 7 approved rites of the Mass, and several sub rites that tie into the 7 official rites that can be performed with permission from both Rome and the Ordinary of the Diocese.
It's not only the vernacular and different rubrics of the Novus Ordo Mass. It's the whole Novus Ordo / Vatican 2 mindset that exists at the vast majority of parishes: poor music, disinterested altar servers, the altar crowded with women, poor homilies, no focus on sin, "children and teen Masses," no discipline in attire, uninspiring architecture and decor, homilies or bulletin tracts that doubt the historicity or supernatural nature of Scripture, half an hour of confession ("reconciliation") offered per week, tabernacle off to the side in most cases, too focused on left-leaning social justice issues, liberal "prayers of the faithful" snuck in, fracture with the old calendar, many times substituting the Confiteor for the brief and less offensive Lord / Christ / Lord have mercy, R.E. programs using cartoon books as central texts through all grades (along with the awful NAB, of course), still occasional novelties like sticking sand in the holy water fonts during Lent, Father "First Name," no discipline in fasting or abstinence (e.g. fasting dispensed during Lent because coronavirus was too hard on people, according to the bishops), rushed communion with unnecessary EMHCs giving communion, too much noise with constant singing during / post-communion . . . just to name a few things.
Accurate... and they wonder why there's a lack of priest and religious. Bring back the 1500 year old mass to all parishes!
@@Marco-qe5zw I would beg to disagree on the "disinterested" lay ministers. I have been a lay minister of the Word and music minister. And while I have not been an Altar Server, I have worked with them closely. We don't just go to the mass and say, "I can read, so I can be a Minister of the Word". We do undergo formations and training so that we would understand what is our role in the celebration of the Eurcharist.
I do agree though, that sometimes, the ministers have been doing it for too many a time, that he becomes tired. But I would say, that is also true for the professional musician who is doing the service because he is being paid. It doesn't mean that money is his reason for doing the service but he also gets "disinterested" sometimes.
What's the point of even being catholic anymore when all the churches around you are like you described? Even protestant churches nearby are less watered down. I'm lost and don't know what to do.
@@jayzlvillafanianebre546 I too have been a EMOTE and gave it up because the novus ordo mentality lacks the true reverence and tradition around the Eucharist. Many holy men with extraordinary minds have studied and contemplated on all that is Sacred and modernists thinking they know better are destroying all that is connected with the Sacred. I was also with the charismatics and in time I saw that the truly Catholic Church was being protestantised in many ways. I was losing my faith too. Then by "chance" I came across the Oratorians of St Phikip Neri and the Sacred came alive again. TLM please always as it's reverence and beauty glorify God and elevate us from the clay we're made of to come before the throne and majesty of God.
@@fraisedesbois7240 , Be patient and look for a TLM near you. More and more of them are being offered. And if not TLM, find an English one that has the Priest Ad Orientum, facing towards the Altar away from the parishioners, basically the TLM but in English. Also, if you're not already doing so, buy the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary and pray it. I suggest the Blue Baronius Press version found at BaroniusPress.com or ChristianBooks.com. It has English and Latin together, and uses verbiage from the Douay Version of the Bible, before all this progressive stuff infiltrated. A Daily Rosary is also a good idea if you're not called for the Little Office. The Graces you get from a Daily Rosary are tremendous. It helped me get over my porn addiction and chastity, which beforehand I thought was utterly impossible.
I'm still learning Catholicism, but TLM is beautiful to me.
So happy to see you on this show, Cameron!!!
The true presence is the only thing that matters. Thank you!
I would have to disagree slightly. The true presence is the most important but this is how I see it. Consider marriage. Even though you can go the courthouse and officially become married, most people opt for the ceremony (the mass) and the reception that costs thousands. Why? Because they don't want to settle for the minimum. It's one of the most important thing in their life. Now let's go back to the mass. We can opt the bare minimum but many people prefer the solemnity and reverence because it's important to them, to me. Validity is the most important but it should be the goal. It should be the base. We should build on the validity to offer up God the greatest worship that mankind can offer Him.
Wow, best show ever. So many fantastic points from all. Can't wait to see the film!
I prefer being an active participant therefore I prefer the Novus Ordo mass. My parish has a beautiful Novus Ordo mass. When we enter the church we pray. I don’t know what people are talking about when they say people are talking to their neighbor before Mass begins. That does not happen in our diocese or my parish Church. Whenever I have gone to the TLM because I do not understand Latin, I feel like I have not been to Mass. I take offense to those who say people who like Novus Ordo are not devout Catholics. Many in my parish goes to Mass everyday. All I can say to that statement is this is not true. God have mercy on those who make such judgements.
Powerful prayer at the end, Father, thank you. I'm a Traditionalist and I would probably come to your Mass, at least to check it out. God Bless.
TLM is truly more reverent and beautiful.
I returned to listen to this discussion a second time, which is a first. Happy to be the 667th thumbs up. It is refreshing & encouraging to hear people speak on this issue without raising voices, finger-pointing, & condemnation of one another for daring to have separate perspectives. This is likely the first talk about this issue I've heard in which people are actually being Christ-like & reasoned rather than impassioned & divisive. My deepest thanks to everyone on the panel.
I have a question & hope & pray someone will stumble across this & point me in the right direction. I'm newly-confirmed in the Church (as of the last weekend in June thanks to the virus & the Lent which kept on giving). As a new Catholic, I often find myself immersed in social media & reading related to the Church. I attended RCIA, but there was very little discussion regarding the tenets of the faith & almost no instruction in tradition other than how to pray the Rosary.
I bought a Bible & a copy of the catechism a la Vatican II last fall & have read the Catechism & am mostly through the Bible. (I've made it as far as Galatians.). I've also purchased a '62 missal, an introductory book on the writings of Aquinas, & book called "Sermons in a Sentence", which is a collection of various things written by Archbishop Fulton Sheen across many of his works. The daily Mass offered by Bishop Barron & Word on Fire was incredibly helpful, especially Father Steve. They made me realize the Mass is something I want every day, or as often as I can possibly attend. I found a parish which is only 45 minutes from me & began attending the Tridentine Mass. That lengthy preface is to say I'm trying to soak up as much as I can. It is sort of an oddly consuming desire. Perhaps this sort of infatuation-like obsession is common with new converts.
Are there places or organizations or websites for which I should look to continue instructed cathechesis? Where would I find so many of the traditional prayers Catholics raised in the Church since infancy seem to know? Has the Church been so divided over the Mass for most of the past 50 years? Does anyone have recommendations for books, authors, lecturers, etc? I wish I had grown up in the Church & in Catholic schools rather than playing catch-up as an adult, but maybe God knew I wouldn't have listened or appreciated it when I was younger. Some of us have to learn the hard way.
One more question. I've been attending the Mass on Saturday evening at my local parish, early Sunday at another parish 20 minutes away, then I typically stop for coffee & a light breakfast & read for a while before driving the extra 25 minutes to attend the traditional Mass offered at midday on Sundays. Is there any sort of limit or guideline to how often I should attend Mass & receive the Eucharist? I hope I'm not breaking some sort of unspoken rule, but please let me know if I am. My apologies for the length of this comment. God bless anyone with the patience to make it to the end.
I attend a Novas Ordo Mass and know nothing about vatican ll or why exactly they changed the mass...and I hate how it makes me feel! Who in their right mind would have us standing to receive our Lord!
Once you go to the Latin High Mass, it’s very difficult to go back to Novas Ordo. I personally prefer Latin Mass.
I totally agree with you! We have a Latin mass 10 minutes away. I went with my son a few weeks ago and it was reverent...most women were veiled..people dressed well..but no music! I could feel it's absence! I have attended Latin masses at the basillica in philadelphia that were beautiful! It takes me 45 minutes to an hour to get there..but there is no parking..plus I hate going into the city these days....but I am going to check their mass schedule...I think it would all be worth it!
@@rosiegirl2485 oh was there no chanting? TLM I've been to has amazing chanting.
@@dmd418 .. It was silent! Nothing like the Gregorian chant I heard at the basillicas! I didn't expect the same quality of music at this small church...but u didn't expect silence either! I may try it one more time...maybe it was an off week or something I wasn't aware of!
@The Lesser Confessor .. Thank you! I love anything from Fulton Sheen...not to mention anything relating to Fatima!
"the way we pray drives what we believe". Reverence is everything. My soul, my prayer, my desire, is reverent no matter which mass. It's what I was taught, and have no problem with living. The mass itself calls for reverence. I come from a very traditionally Italian Catholic family. I so love this episode, like all of them.
I don’t know about superior but the Latin mass definitely has more reverence. The people their seem more focused on The Eucharist.
The fact it is more reverent means it is superior.
My thoughts exactly!!
"My Lord, My God"
This channel makes me shiver.
I grew up with the TLM, and left after Vatican II. I've only been back since Dec 2019, and I was appalled at the first Mass I'd been to in 50 years. So here I was in what I learned is a NO Mass, the altar is in the center of a stage-like area, no altar rail, and people wandering all over shaking hands and chatting at the "sign of peace"....which wasn't a thing when I left. I wondered what was next; were we all going to sing Kumbaya next?? Were we Protestants now and nobody told me?? And good grief, laity handling the Holy Eucharist!! That is sacrilege as far as I am concerned! And that's exactly what I told the pastor when I met with him later on.
But what it all boils down to, as far as the Mass is concerned, is not what language it's in, but what is our relationship to Our Lord? I remember being taught in Catholic school that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, and of course yeah, yeah, He's present. But it really didn't hit home for me until one day a few months ago, during an ordinary Mass, nothing special going on. There was something extra special in the way the pastor spoke the words "Take this all of you and eat of it, for THIS IS my body...." and the look of sheer reverence on his face as he elevated the host, and I felt the full impact of the presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist. I had tears in my eyes as I received the Eucharist that day. That day changed everything for me. I can't get enough of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass now. It is the apex of my day. I don't care that it's not in Latin, that the altar is facing the wrong way, that we can't kneel for communion (well I can't cuz the priest would have to manually haul me back up if I knelt down to the floor!). None of that matters one piddly bit, because it's being in the presence of the Lord that matters to me.
I agree, great comments. Knowing Christ is present in the Eucharist and worshiping him in faith is what brings reverence to the Mass.
Love you guys, I am more awakened from this video. 🙌
I love this episode. I have never been to a Latin mass. I can see how great it would be.
I like the new one. My kid really likes the songs and I can sing them to him at night for bedtime.
This is a breath of fresh air! I am a child of the old Latin Order and I believe it is difficult to go back, but we HAVE lost something in the actual devotion.
I am a convert from a black Moody Baptist Church and 2 hour church services were all I had known. The sermon was 1hr by itself. This doesn't include extra time added for Communion Sunday (every 1st Sunday). Bring on longer masses! I'm not scared.😅
Question for next week, what is better the rosary or the Divine Mercy Chaplet. Answer: both. In this video/one-sided conversation you ask the wrong question and so you get the wrong answer. Different prayers and the different forms of the Holy Mass reach different personalities and people. Personal comparative and qualitative judgements or preferences do not apply. I am happy that you are edified by the Tridentine Mass and I am happy that others are drawn into prayer by the Novus Ordo. The Lord provides for all.
I attended TLM with my Pépére (French Canadian for grandfather) and I love it. I miss hearing it and using my translator bible/ order of the Mass.
I am a traditionalist in almost everything I do. As a Catholic the Tradition of the Apostolic succession legitimizing the Nova Ordo makes it the Mass to attend. Don't get me wrong I love the Latin Mass but hearing the Mass in the vernacular language allows me to understand all of the Mass. In the past the purpose of the Latin Mass was necessary to maintain proper translation, but with the improved communication we are able to have an good and valid translation. My dream Mass is the 2 and 3 hour Ordo. With that said going to Mass on Sunday, Office of Readings thru out the week, and Adoration on Wednesday, is a wonderful way to open my self to the Holy Spirit. The purpose of the Mass is Truth, not feelings.
nOVA ORDO IS MISSING STRONG PRAYERS VATCIAN 2 TOOK OUT lATIN mASS
I know this three years old, but being a new TLM with SSPV I think this was a great conversation. First Father Pagano is so polite and respectful to what the others are saying about TLM. This kind of attitude will make him a wonderful priest. The gentleman from Mass if the Ages had me in tears listening to him. Kudos for making me emotional. This was a great topic and handled so well. I wish you all the best in your journey through life as a Catholic. ❤
I appreciate the honest and respectful voices in this video. However, I am continuously confused by those who say "Apple pie has all the perfect qualities of a dessert, but apple sauce is just as sufficient." We do not attend Mass to please ourselves. If the TLM automatically lends itself to more reverence & less sacrilege, then why risk offering God anything else? Yes, the sacrifice is the same in both forms, but one is OBJECTIVELY superior if you are intending to worship God the way He demands. He cannot and should not receive anything less if a better option is available.
I have attended the Latin Mass for 20 years. Regular High Mass is about the same duration as the Novous Ordo. A solemn High Mass might be close to 2 hours, particularly on Maundy Thursday with the incensing and Eucharistic Procession to the "Tomb." My local parish Mass starts at 11 am until 12:15 weekly.
The longer I'm away from in person Mass, the more questions & concerns I have. The corona virus becomes a pandemic taking over and suddenly we find the fonts empty???? If we really believe it's holy water, then why are we afraid of a virus. If we really believe we take the body and blood of Christ then why are we afraid to worship together? Why aren't we on our knees accepting Christ? Why is the government deciding when and how I worship? Why is it okay to shop in public, but not worship? How is it, the Church does not perform Mass or weddings outdoors until the government said it was the only way they could?
I was able to go to confession, but I just can't accept making a reservation for mass, attend outside 6 feet away from everyone, face coverings, and receiving our Lord in the hand. When I hear people talk about the Latin Mass, I just want to cry b/c I've never experienced it and yet it sounds exactly like what I am looking for. If King Inslee ever lets us out, I want to experience the Latin Mass.
Yep.
Look online there may be one within an hour or 2 of you. You will not be disappointed. God bless
@Crystal Howley I did. We will be out of town next month and the location had more than one. I contacted them and we're excited to go.
@@ema3452 update us, pls! Tell us all about it.
@@peace-and-quiet There were covid restrictions in place that kept us from going. Still looking for a Latin Mass closer to home.
I'm so impressed by some of these comments by young people and I too have also only known the novis ordo Mass. Having learned the Latin Mass, I also felt cheated. I am praying for a resurgence of the TLM!
This is really going to make some people mad, but...I’m just curious if this happens to anyone else:
When people say, “but Vatican II (the N.O. Mass) just hasn’t been implemented properly, yet,” does anyone else hear echoes of when people say that about Socialism?
Really looking forward to the documentary
I remember growing up with TLM. I would DEFINITELY support a return to mainstream Catholic churches. TLM gives a more insightful perspective into our Catholic faith and its rich traditions.
As an American Citizen who grew up in the Protestant traditions Catholicism still holds some admiration from me because of it's many traditions and connections to the beginning of Christianity within the Jewish communities. Thanks for the podcast ❤🇺🇸🙏
As someone that is old enough to remember and be an alter boy pre VII, I have a few thoughts. 99% of all Masses celebrated before VII were of the low form. No singing, no chanting, no music, no incense, no participation. Most of the Mass was recited silently by the priest. Most responses were provided by the server. The congregation were observers. They said a few amens, a few et cum spiritu tuos and a few in nomine... Mass was rushed because there could be up to 5 Masses in a row, scheduled on each hour, because if you wanted to go to Communion you could not eat or drink from midnight. They could start as early as 5am. You were a human production line. I love pomp and ceremony and the old Latin Gloria, Sanctus, Agnus Dei etc. when used. However, I find it amusing when people, with no memory of the Latin Mass, over romanticize that time and the feelings and reverence people had for the Mass. As with today and Novus Ordo you ran the gamut with peoples attitude, understanding, reasoning. The same people were sitting in the pews then, as now.
You've got a point there, but it was closer to 90% Low Mass in my parish, as there has to be at least one High Mass sung every Sunday.
Most people knew what was happening, even without a Missal.
The priest was offering a sacrifice on our behalf and we participated by being present, using the silence to make our personal offerings.
It was quite acceptable to pray the Rosary if you so wished.
You are correct about the four or five Masses every Sunday morning, and I recall people lined up outside the church, waiting for the next Mass.
How many parishes today need five Sunday Masses to accommodate the crowds, even in the most popular N.O. Churches?
Thank you so much for your honesty and for your memory of the reality of what was. There had to be a Vatican II! I am happy for Catholics who have found the TLM to be meaningfully spiritual for them, but it is a mistake for them to judge the Novus Ordo as harmful with God being absent. There is some Latin in the Novus Ordo too. It is dangerous for our faith especially in the crazy world we live in to be divisive. I read one comment that said it was ok to say the rosary during the Mass, no it wasn't - not at the parish I attended! Thank you again.
Great discussion today, gentlemen.
Thank you for this episode. I am one of the many who came back to Catholicism after i attended my first TLM , only SSPX offers it here on our country (Philippines). By our good Lord's mercy and grace, it has been a Life saving event for us who were already " dead in sin" .
Thank you Father Pagano. Great way to end the topic. We have brothers and sisters that need to start somewhere. Whatever Mass is offered close to them, let us pray they respond with all their heart, mind and straight.
God bless you all.
I love our Church, and all that is in it according to the call of the Holy Spirit. We have great Priests that shepherd us.
The answer is yes, the TLM is better than the Novus Ordo. There I said it
No question
So you said reverend is the factor to tell the TLM is better than the New Mass? What if the people attending New Mass some where in the world is more reverend than some parish with TLM in the US is that counted as your standard of reverend? Do you go by feelings or by reasoning when you make your decision? Do you understand every word in the mass spoken in Latin? Why the Latin is better? Is better mean God in the TLM is a better God or the people there is better than the people attending New Mass? Is the New Mass valid? What considered a valid mass? Do you pray in Latin? Do you talk to God in Latin? Why don't you pray in Hebrew, or the language that Jesus spoke? The receive practice a "NORM" or a "DOCTRINE"? Is this practice revealed to man by the Holy Spirit or base on feelings and reason? Where is the evidence that support your claim?
@@bombaway2029 do you know proper English? I can answer your questions if you want but it's pretty simple. The TLM is simply speaking more reverent, and it takes little intelligence to see that. Maybe order your thoughts a little better, write in proper in English, and compare the Masses. Then come on over to the TLM, we will be happy to introduce real Catholicism to you
@@jacoba7275 Is the current Catechism not "real Catholicism"? I think you looked at the rite and didn't like it so your decision seems final. The TLM rite help you not getting distracted but that is your comfort zone. A lot of people don't have that option. The claim is baseless, as the Protestant claim that Catholics worship Mary. And no matter what others tell them "we don't worship Mary, we venerate her". So is the traditionalists claim that people are irreverent at New Mass. I see some of the things people do just like you. But that is the fault of the people and the priest that involved. And for the validity of the New Mass, there is nothing wrong with it. I don't pay attention only to the priest, of course you have to listen to him to hear what he is saying, either in English or Latin. That doesn't mean you are paying attention to the priest but his words. You don't need to introduce me to the TLM. My family was in the middle of the switch from TLM to the New Mass. As for real Catholicism, tell me something I don't know. Fast an hour before and after communion, observe Holidays of Obligation, sexual union is for procreation only. The ten Commandment. Attacking the rites is not going to solve any thing. If the Magi from the east saw the star from the east, then why they heading to the west? There are too many thing that we don't have answer, but believe, and we obey the Bishops unless it out right heresy or abomination (such as honor Pachamama). Laity is not in the position to criticize or change the order of the mass and come up with blames by conjectures. Christ in the Eucharist at the TLM is the same as Christ in the Eucharist at the New Mass. Reverent or not is between God and that person. You can pray more for them if you see their irreverent. Sinners need God's mercy most. You can not tell me that I am irreverent because I attend the New Mass. If you think the Church will be small and holy and only the Traditionalists are in it then it you right to think so. You are the ownership of you mind. But i see the flaw in that thinking. Only God know man hearts. No one knows God's mind but God. Wait until you get old and don't have memory and knowledge then you will see how other will judge you by your incapable of kneeling or standing at mass. I beg you consider all. May God bless you in this Holy Week.
I'm confused, does the novus ordo is the rites/liturgy is what we use today?
the first time i have been aware of your program very moved i stoped going to mass when the laten music was dropped and have been singing latin music in a protestant church I am now finding my way back as best i can.
I really do not know when it comes to these matters. I have only very rarely had trouble having reverence at Holy Mass. I do know that I have seen not a few proponents of the Tridentine Mass speak with great pride and with disparage for the ordinary form of the Holy Mass and others speak of ways close to idolizing aspects of the extraordinary form. I have seen people attacking the Pope, Saints, and a valid ecumenical council and division in Christ's Mystical Body around this matter. All That when combined with the accompanying walling off attitude that was the reason Vatican II was needed at all being sometimes alive and well, and I regrettably struggle to disregard these fruits of the movement.
That being said, it all saddens me greatly because I am uncertain if I can separate the Latin Extraordinary Holy Mass from all of that. Were it not for these, I likely would be quite fond of it. I pray the Lord break me of this. Through our Blessed Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen
In another way though, I think what matters really in the end is the reading of Sacred Scripture, teaching application by the homily (Liturgy of the Word) and the Banquet and Sacrifice of the Holy Lamb of God in the Most Holy Eucharist (Liturgy of the Eucharist). That is principal all the rest ought serve that to the end of worship our Holy Triune God.
How the forms have been pitted against one another, that I can not see being from God. That is where I take issue.
I would most definitely attend a Latin Holy Mass if someone asked me to come with them, just as I would happily attend a Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Rites if asked or something else like an Ambrosian Rite Holy Mass. I am open to all the legitimate Tradition of Holy Mother Church.
I do much prefer the vernacular but that is for only the practical reason that I have a harder time engaging if I do not understand the words.
These are merely my humble opinion however, I hope they can be of any form of help.. God bless you!
Can’t be “more superior.” Superior means better; one who speaks English correctly can no more say “more superior” than “more better.”
Music at the Latin Mass is WAY superior! No sappy music that only old women 70 years+ like.
I greatly dislike the music of the new mass...
I don’t mind if it’s just an organ and a choir or cantor. It can be done reverently. But some churches take it overboard. I’ve gone to every church in my area and one(the one my parents were married in 45 yrs ago actually) always has a band now and a big tv screen at front of the church. It was so cringy I almost left in the middle of mass. I honestly don’t know what some of these pastors are thinking!!!!
I should explain the "women" part. Ever see a NO choir with more men than women? With men that can actually sing? Lots of women. Men are not attracted to Barry Manilow style insipid music written by bad composers. In the TLM schola I sing with we have more men than women and have trouble getting women! Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love women but I like to sing music that guys like where I can meet other men with an interest in the faith. It is about brotherhood.
@@paulgman3531 I get your reasoning but I doubt God ever intended women to enjoy sappy, overly-sentimental and banal music, I certainly do not. I much prefer Gregorian Chant, I'm sure Our Lady would agree. It's more a degeneration of the feminine spirit, which is of course naturally oriented towards the world of emotions but as a true nurturer and mother of life, not as a weak, sentimental, moody wreck.
@@icyangel13 I should explain that I do not mean to generalize. Not all women prefer this aweful music, however, a lot do. Let's take the insipid Holy Thursday song "As I Have Done for You". I have never heard a male say that he loves that song. In the TLM, it is the chant Ubi Caritas that is sung during foot washing, if it is even performed during the Mass. Sensible men and women get the point and beauty of these chants. The women who prefer a the As I Have Done song are usually older women who have played in guitar groups with limited vocal abilities. BTW, I do use the guitar in the NO on ocassion, but it is the classical guitar arrangement of the traditional hymns. I also play the organ and prefer to play that instrument, even if it electronic. Men and Women both like good music, however, the majority of men are totally turned off by bad music written by bad composers who write stuff that sounds like romantic ballads, or worse, TV themes, jingles and songs from kiddie shows like My Little Pony.
Our Parish Priest started to meld the good parts from jTLM and NO. He started praying the Liturgy of the Eucharist Ad Orientem on Friday masses. We praise and thank the Lord for our shepherd.
We went to an SSPX mass this month because our Novus Ordo parish wasn’t celebrating public mass. Thank God for Archbishop Lefebvre