Is This the Revolution That Will Change Audiophiles Forever?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ต.ค. 2024
- Is This the Revolution That Will Change Audiophiles Forever?
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Ron, passing on my comments for what it's worth. You know me, I've got good gear, totally treated room, value soundstage big time. I bought these amps for fun at introductory price. My go-to amp that I use is a Pass DIY Burning Amp 3 which is kin to a First Watt F4/F5, about a $3,000 amp. I upgraded the opamps in my V3 monos, use after market quality power cords and replaced the lamp cords. Like most, I have found the balanced input sounds best. Now here is the big one: I use a Musical Paradise tube preamp to drive the V3 mono's and the going thought these days that a tube pre paired with class D amplification is something special holds very true with these. In this configuration, in my system and in my room, these amplifiers do in fact easily compete with my Pass amp, no question. Soundstage is huge, wide, deep. Tonality is excellent. They resolve extremely well, they are powerful, bass is excellent. I can attest, if you have the gear, the room, the right stereo setup and you work with these little amps, they are in fact unbelievably good for the price. If you plop them down in a system not set up well, speakers not optimized for soundstage and you don't have the most resolving gear, well sure, they may not impress you as much. But for me in my setup it's a "holy crap" situation.
Same deal here. Price is a bonus.
The mono's sound a bit bright in my system, of course all newer stuff sounds a little bright to me. I bought them as a backup for my regular amps while they are out for service.
@@65epiphone I think Class D in general sounds cooler which goes without saying. But I would be curious to know if you are using a tube pre? Replaced the opamps? Power cords? Some might say, I need to do all that to make these sound good? If you want them to compete with much pricier amplifiers like I do then the answer is possibly yes. In stock form they have surprisingly good tone to me but can sound brighter when paired with a solid state preamp and with the stock opamps. But in my personal case, I had all those things on hand when I bought the amps. BTW I bought a pair of figure 8 to IEC inlet power cord adapters in order to use IEC power cords.
I'm intrigued with you!!!! currently Building a TPA3255 2x but with a PFC rectifier+ capacitor+ SMPS and will confirm and compare to the class A and AB along with Tube amplification... confirming with almost every discrete OP-AMP available.. If under $150 after beefing it up makes a clean incredible 250wpc I want to know...
What did you do with the amp ops?
Not everybody can afford the high end gear . I own high end gear however i still remember how my journey started . I was a young boy and bought my first little pocket radio , mono at that and i loved it why ? because i was listening to music . Music !
Yes. Ignorance is bliss.
I think of it as an audiophile journey. For someone beginning this is good, but they shouldn't mess around with op amps and cables. When you do you enter the price range of better gear and should get that instead. And so it begins 🫣
This was as clear-headed, well-constructed and considered an approach to an audio topic or innovation as I think we ever get. So focused. Ron, this was a great piece!
I can attest that Ron’s LOTS procedure on speaker placement revealed the soundstage that I was searching all this time.
And since then I had a high respect for his process and opinions.
Heck yeah!
Heard them. Huge improvement but not yet my new endgame. Class A and muscled, old school AB still rule my room
I think the most important thing to realize is that if you want to improve the sound of your gear, there are many things you can and should do before ever thinking about buying a new piece. Room treatments, speaker placement, speaker toe-in, speaker height, add a rug, isolation pucks, speaker wires if you're feeling fancy. I had a pair of Cambridge Audio Aero 2's that I really didn't like the the sound of. Though in the box with them came foam port plugs, so for the hell of it I decided to throw them in. Totally changed the sound for me. Tighter bass, warmer sound and it actually made me want to listen for hours. My speaker upgrade I had already purchased with my speakers. I just hadn't experienced it yet.
The cool thing about the audio world is that it is subjective and constantly changing. I love everyone's different takes and experiences. I personally own a Fosi V3 paired with a P-1 tube preamp and SMSL Su-1 and love what it did for my Aon 3's. I know there is better but I think these little Digital amps are a great stepping stone for those of us without the means to fund the better gear. Much love Ron. Always respect your opinions. 🖖
Thanks for sharing!
Chi fi, elevated the bottom of the ladder to a level that will force all the game to elevate it self...
Good. That being said when that happens many times the US will just put tariffs because they can't compete. China makes the best solar panels at the cheapest price so we banned those.
It is a GREAT time to be into audio!
@@michaelwright1602 Indeed!
New speakers technology is the only way. Say, planar magnetic headphones for example. Totally different sound resolution compared to every classic designs. Simple as that. Just by technology. So big speakers next. But how?
@@mikelo303... Magnepans? Open baffle? Ribbon drivers? Headphones typically inherit speaker tech.
I think speaker positioning is one of the most important things to improve sound quality. I had this amazing ATC EL150 Active speaker based system in a dedicated and reasonably well treated room. While trying out different positions and toe-ins with my speakers, I discovered amazingly beautiful sound when the speakers were about 2 meters from the front and side walls and about the same distance from each other and from my listening position.
These massive speakers just sounded like a huge pair of high quality headphones. I will never forget the experience, the music just sounded amazing with great sound stage, separation, depth and detail. Experiment with speaker positioning, it's free and you may end up with a pleasant surprise.
I’m offended that you were dismissive about the credence of Sith Audio Man rocks. It’s revolutionizing the audiophile world
I’m offended they are always out of stock. Someone really needs to get a hold of Elon to collect more of these precious minerals randy.
I’m waiting for those moon rocks to be restocked too. Please let us know when they’re available Randy.
If you guys want I have some true class A grade high fidelity air in a pressure can for just 2999$. They come with a golden gold finish. It really airs the room for a better musical sounding feeling and the gold finish makes it shine.
Just tell me how many you want I can produce a bigger amount really fast 😉.
@@Newrecordday2013 I bought the Sith Audio rocks and all I got from them was a case of sever zits
Tried the Fosi V3 for a week, and after awhile, my ears adjusted to the lower quality, and I thought it sounded pretty darn good......until I swapped in my big class AB amp again....Instantly, my soul went, "Yeah! Now that's what I'm talkiing about!"
totally. I just switched from a za3 to an A/B and from the first listen it just felt "right". I can only describe it as a visceral response. Is it perfect? Nope, but it FEELS good when I listen to it, and that is all I care about. I like the za3 - I do, and I will find some use for it in future, I'm sure. But this new one is something else entirely.
Good on ya Ron!! I appreciate your opinions and the truth you spread to us the viewer. Rock on.
I setup my stereo out into a room for a wedding dance. I pulled up Allison Krause "When you say nothing at all" from a computer file. The sound was absolutely incredible. You could hear the reflections off the studio walls just as if you were sitting in the perfect spot. It was amazing as the room was far from perfect, yet there was this intricate 3d sound stage.
I tried one of the baby amps with a tube pre-amp. I haven't unpacked them yet after moving 2 years ago. There are things where the small amps might not be able to compete. Dynamic headroom is where the heft of a copper high efficiency transformer comes into play. This may be most notable on low impedance speakers.
I will wait and see what you learn. I would specifically put them to task with both high and low impedance speakers.
I purchased the V3 Monos as soon as I saw a video on them. They are nice amps, but…and it’s a big one…I compared them to a few 80-100 wpc NAD power amps I have, and while they do image well and are ‘seemingly’ dynamic, they’re very flat and don’t have the soul, smooth midrange, ‘bounce’ and low end ‘slam’ of the class A/B amps. It was a pretty quick decision to be honest. Then again, the amps I have are pretty special for what they are.
Can you explain generally, WHY these small amps, as a group, don’t create the soundstage you are looking for? What is it about the technology that, in most cases, for you, creates this deficit?
This is also my question. It felt like he got to the moment he was gonna tell us why they wouldn't hold up, and immediately started talking about speaker location and room treatment. Both of these make a difference in SQ, and he tested those amps in his sound shed, so what's the deal? Was there a lack of sound stage with them, because I watched that video and I don't remember it being mentioned. Ron is awesome, but this felt more like a rant and less like offering proof that the little amps can't perform as well for a reason. We need a reason, in the treated shed, why they don't perform.
@matthewpeterson3329 give me some time - I’m working on it.
If there was an easy / straightforward / obvious reason, the builders of the amps would have addressed it already. However, this problem is not new, the audio industry has been struggling with it at every era. One thing has been a constant during all the technology changes for the past century in audio: the new technologies always struggle with soundstaging, and also with natural tone / natural sound. Not a big shocker, as all the new technologies focus on giving more power at a lesser cost, that is the focus of the development, with developers usually entrenched in the engineering fronts with very little exposure to music / trained musician ears.
@@realworldaudio well...I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk but the most notoriously "holographic" amps you can get are tube driven. That means lots of distortion - it's "good" distortion,of the harmonic variety, but I suspect a large part of the problem with these über perfectly measuring amps is that they throw out the good, natural sounding stuff along with real noise. It's well known that harmonics have a deep impact on psychoacoustics and this is *allegedly* what makes tubes sound so spacious and deep in the stage.
Ron, have you tried A/B comparisons, via sound clips, of one of these inexpensive chip based/class D amps vs something like your electrocompaniet amp? Im curious if soundstage would translate in one of your soundclips. If it does, then people would have the ability to listen and decide for themselves.
Sometimes you just want to jam, going about your business. Toys in the Attic came on…the radio…in my 20 yr old Land Cruiser, and I enjoyed the hell out of it. Doesn’t mean it wouldn’t sound better on an expensive rig, just means music can be enjoyed almost anywhere for any price. Until my kids leave the house, not much chance I’ll have a room dedicated to audiophile level sound, with speakers pulled out. One day maybe. I’ll be mid-fi for awhile.
Its a different animal, completely ignores sound stage. I was introduced to high end at a young age and now its impossible to untie that knot. I did ignore high fi for a number of years, and I've since realized I was missing a lot. I've been there. Married without the capacity or time to invest in equipment and be myself. That's the critical part... to be yourself and invest in you. I have a new girlfriend of going on 4 years. She doesn't understand my hobby but understands its a part of me and who I am.
@@NightFlight1973 I’m just saying that no one aspect of sounds/music matters all the time. Chi-fi isn’t for everyone, but it’s better than an old rca stereo from sears. And even those served their function and made people happy at some point in their lives
Speakers on stands and pulled out. Lovely. If only. My stands are in another room. My speakers are on wall brackets. My partner, she doesn't like clutter.
I recently purchased a smsl a0300 and connected them to an old pair of celestion bookshelf speakers, over 25 years old. I use the bluetooth LDAC codec to stream apple music.
I was pleasantly surprised at the sound quality. I use it for nearfield listening. Admittedly I'm not an audiophile but for £160, I can't fault this amp. I would highly recommend it.
Hey, I bought the same amp too. It's pretty good compared to my other more expensive, bigger and heavier amps. I've made my comment.
I've got the Loxjie-a40 which is basically the same but with a phono preamp and it's ridiculously good for the money.
(I don't use the phono pre though, it's definitely for desperates only)
@@crazyprayingmantis5596 loxjie A40 is almost the same as smsl 300, i had both,first the smsl, sounded good but within two days stopt working, send it back and bought the loxjie, same sound ( very good) but this keeps working😂
I have numerous chifi mini amps. They all sound fine. They don't sound great. My sprout100 is not that much, and is not worth comparing it is so much better. They have their place, and are a great way to get into better audio for cheap. But to say they are making all amps obsolete, is like saying dayton audio b65's are making all other speakers obsolete. If all that is required is clean power, Crown amps has you covered, for the last 60 years. Yet, hifi still exists.
I own both the Sprout and the v3 monos and I think the v3 sounds far superior. A lot more meat on the bone, cleaner and smoother high frequencies. The most noticeable improvement is soundstage - that's a standout with the v3. The Sprout sounds harsh and primitive in contrast. For the money, the v3 is a game changer. If someone is trying to build a new system on a budget I would 100% recommend starting with a Wiim Ultra and the v3 Monos. The EqQ and sub/bass management of the Wiim Ultra, paired with the heft of the v3 Monos is seriously impressive.
Yes, sound stage, especially the depth, is one of the most important factor for me to determine if it is a good gear too.
How do you think an amplifier affects that? Seriously - small signal in - bigger signal out with both voltage uplift and current capability. Some load dependency in some amps, also some overall frequency shaping: it can be measured, quantified. What is the engineering behind 'affects the soundstage' in an amplifier (or DAC, or preamp, for that matter)?
@@jamesmansion2572 It's about noise level mostly I believe, when using a clean isolation or regen power or even battery, it drasically improves depth. And simple amps like this are inherently less noisy. But for sure I would say DAC makes the biggest difference in this regard (and the power supplying it too).
edit: and this is why high-end amps put a lot of efforts into their power sections.
@@jamesmansion2572 THIS!
@@koblongata LOL, DACs....haha
@@koblongata funny. Numerous studies have been done that show that INCREASING noise can increase the perception of soundstage depth. That's one of the reasons why these little amps, with vanishingly low levels of noise, have flat soundstages. Oh, and modern, close mic'ed recordings, don't have soundstage depth information to start with.
I bought a relatively cheap amp, i.e. SMSL AO300. It's cheaper, lighter, smaller than my 3 other amps, i.e. Marantz, Audiolap and Kinki Studio. The SMSL is pretty good. These traditional amp companies should pay attention and innovate quickly or else, they'll disappear due to technology disruption.
What about the soundstage of the Topping B100 or Topping B200? Compare them just with some „Audiophile“ Stuff for USD 80.000,- ! If you would compare them blindfolded, you are astounished. But I guess that will never happen……
yep, he never mentions smsl and topping amps which are actually great, but it is always fosi audio, douk or aiyima with him *sigh*
Ironically the best soundstage ive heard and i cannot seem to replicate was from stereo ikea bluetooth speakers😂
V3 monos are revolutionary. They even sounstage better than my previous amp with my Vandersteen 2Cs. Can't wait to hear your review with the Sparkos. I think that will be the key to getting more soundstage.
The Sparkos indeed open the soundstage tremendously.
Well done. I have had a similar journey and my experience mirrors your own thus far. I returned several of these units(various brands) until I hit on a winning combo. Fosi Audio ZA3 running full gain. I have 3 I run in a horizontal tri amped active crossover setup. They sound fantastic. Sound stage is amazing. I did not like them until I started running them full volume.
One point that should be mentioned more is the price. It truly is one of the biggest factors when talking about these mini options. I can buy a stack of these and have an utter blast goofing around. I would never be able to experiment and experience what mono blocks and/or active crossovers offer without the price break these afford.
Thanks again for a great video. And you are dead on about sound stage. Once it is truly experienced it is extremely hard to be concerned with equipment that does anything other than improve it.
This is the way I believe these amplifiers will revolutionise the hi-fi industry. They will make active speakers mainstream. Remove the junk that is passive crossovers from the mix, and open up what speaker drive units can do when directly connected to the amplifier. The biggest issue with these cheap amps (driving low impedance, high bandwidth, complex loads) is also mitigated by using one per drive unit without crossover components adding huge phase swings and effective impedance dips.
Screw all that BS and just enjoy the music with EQ and warm speakers.
If that works for you, then sweet. But, have you heard what NRD is talking about? Do you know what you're missing out on? Until you've heard it, you can't dismiss it as BS. Otherwise, you're the toddler screaming they don't like something they haven't tried.
@@RacingAnt I have heard it with select recordings, but not all. Most of everything I listen to is not recorded well. And most everything that is recorded well I do not like. For instance most all of steve guttenburgs selections I do not like, but they do image well and all that other BS.
@@RacingAntyeah, and I'm not willing to spend years of lifetime and thousands of dollars chasing equipment to indulge the consumption of a commodity. Audiophiles are brain damaged.
@@keith6872listen to a system that is resolving and has wonderful soundstage and you may be surprised how many recordings are actually pretty good. 'Poor recordings ' is not often the case i find once you start using really good sounding equipment.
@keith6872 I hear you 🙂 Most modern music is recorded with multiple close mics, without any spatial information to reproduce. This hobby should be all about enjoying your favourite music, and discovering new music to enjoy. Getting a system that does this, and can reproduce a soundstage in those rare recordings that are both enjoyable musically and well recorded is the goal. Mine needs to play a jazz trio recorded live in a small venue, Megadeath, and everything in between.
As someone who has played a small part in the genesis of this 'revolution' (I was the first to tout the TPA chipset many of these amps are based in the diy world a decade ago, which snowballed into Chi-fi brands making retail versions) - it is amusing to see my early cheerleading from a subjective perspective become co-opted by the measurements crowd. Parts quality and implementation still matter. There's a reason an LSA Warp-1 TPA3255 amp is $1500 vs. $200 Ayima/Fosi etc. The cheap amps are great value for the money but the game-changing part is still pay to play. There's no free lunch. And as mentioned in another post the TPA-based amps really shine with a tube pre.
1000x thank you. I put my loudspeakers an extra 2 feet into the room. The difference is amazing!
I bought a SMSL AO200. It’s decent for the price, but I find the cheap amps just don’t have the same oomph as a higher build quality amp. Even in my garage system I bought it for it just wasn’t cutting it. I replaced it with A Yamaha RN803 and am much happier with its performance. That’s my experience
Smsl a0200 is OK for the price. The Ayima a07 and some offerings from fosi are even better. They are getting better every year that passes. Do they sound as good as my cambridge cxr200, rotel amps, parasound amps? No. BuT they are good enough to make me have to rethink everything I thought I knew.
@@ufarkingiceholetry to get a good ass dac that has good synergy, and you will be pleasantly surprised. In my case, it beats most of my more expensive integrated class ab amps!
@fatboyvin I've gone through a dozen Dacs to include Cambridge Audio dac magic, smsl 400, loxjie 70, Geshelli J2, Pegasus, etc... The A0200 is not bad for what it is. I've heard better like the smsl A300, A07, Fosi v3, cheap Sony integrateds, and a few others.
The chifi is so much better than it was even 5 years ago. It is not a $1000 amp killer like many present them to be, nor should it be. I will also say I prefer a decent tube pre with these class D amps. A ton of positive reviews on complete junk but I have found some cheap tube pre amps that work well. As far as a Dac goes, the Geshelli J2 is fantastic with most class D amps. It helps "warm" it up a bit.
I think we finally hit a point where we can finally get quality power for not much money. I don't think they are game changers and make hi end amps obsolete. The tpa3255 is a great chip that can satisfy most amp needs but they still cant hold a candle to other class D amps like hypex or purifi. I don't want to hate on these amps because we need good quality budget amps and I think these amps would be a final upgrade to most people who want to experience great hifi for cheap and can power a majority of speakers. But when it comes to the big boy speakers with demanding loads, these just wont cut it.
This is the key to the magical sound kingdom - getting those speakers located properly is a fundamental requirement for those who really care about recorded sound reproduction. Get it right and the timbre, locality, depth, and transparency of instruments (to include the vocal instrument) will follow suit if the electronics are even halfway decent. In any case do this before throwing more money at your system - quite the ROI as it's usually free.
Audiophiles used to crave high fidelity sound (hi-fi), i.e. sound that was as close to the source as possible. Now, they seem to be chasing soundstage, etc. Well, a recording made with 20 microphones placed an inch from each source, then mixed, compressed, equalised, auto-tuned (i.e. 99% of modern recordings) will not have a soundstage (other than left-right placement) to reproduce. So, now what audiophiles crave is the correct noise, distortion and non-linearities to add back what the recording process removed. Hence, the craving for vinyl, tube amps and R2R dacs...
"warmth"
@@larrylevan3378 that was robbed from the music in the recording process...
Our hi-fi system isn't hi-fi if it adds that warmth, in the form of 2nd and 4th order harmonic distortion, to the signal.
I've nothing against loving the sound your system recreates. If you find yourself just absorbed in the music, then that's surely what we're after? But, don't kid yourself that your valve based system is accurate 😂
Yep people seem to be chasing all sorts of adjectives.
Detail, micro detail, resolution, soundstage, imaging, depth, width, dynamics, clarity, and my favourite PRESENCE.
"it sounds more Present" 😂
@@crazyprayingmantis5596 I know using words for some is uncomfortable, especially describing things from a subjective point of view but it's necessary for a functioning world.
I had the same experience with my Klipsch Heresy IV’s. Ten feet from the front wall, toed in they intersected a foot in front of me and they disappeared and I got a 3D sound stage! I also built a pair of class D mono amps that sound as good as my beloved 105lb McIntosh mc352. This technology is going to revolutionize our hobby.!
What has to be understood with these bits of kit is that they ship with not so super great power supplies, opamps and tubes in order to keep the price down and the companies that make them fully expect you to upgrade the power supplies, opamps and tubes as your budget and sound desires grow. It's possible to get pretty darned good sound from some of them, but it should be obvious that a higher priced units built with top tier parts is going to up the game over these. But you can get a decent way up the audio ladder with these units and some upgrades.
Current, their Achilles' Heel.
If they can't increase their current into more demanding loads they cannot accurately track the signal.
Of course doubling down is the goal.
But when they output the same power into 4ohms as they output into 8ohms, that narrows potential applications dramatically.
Otherwise they'll be anemic in the more demanding freq regions.
Yes, while I'm not a big fan of Audio Science Review, they mention that issue in some of their reviews of these cheap TI powered class D amps. Current, especially for controlling bass, is extremely important.
@@rosswarren436
Not familiar with their reviews, but yeah, ... as we all learned back in the 80's with Krell (Et al...), current capabilities are vital ... dramatically distinguishing such amps from amps that are less capable.
I think I might miss my 200000 microF of capacitance..........but we are are splitting hairs here. I have $6-7K in a BTL dual configuration(Class A/B). You have to respect what this minuscule gear at an amazing price-point can do. Much respect.
After (recently) having set up my new Schiit amp/dac system with my also fairly
new speakers.... this happened..
While sitting back and throughly enjoying my system, I had to lean forward about
2 feet to see my CD player's screen . (small room) Suddenly I froze. While in that forward
position my ears/brain heard sound stage that was so noticeably deep and open
that I was actually very surprised. Leaning back to my previous position the sound was
still good BUT I could not unhear that sound stage heard while "simply" leaning forward.
So, I have not learned about LOTS but I will and do whatever it takes to enjoy what I heard
which was "wonderful". I believe this is relevant to what you are talking about Ron.
Very true.
Positioning your ears is very important.
I have a device suspended from the ceiling (kind of like what you'd see in a SAW movie) it's in the perfect sweeetspot position, I lock my skull 💀 in it so when I'm listening I physically can't move my ears from that position.
But I'm a HARDCORE Audiophile, this is very serious business 😂
@@crazyprayingmantis5596 Interesting and thanks
Still have not heared any new Class D amp that sounds as musically, beautiful, rich and detailed as my almost 30 year old pure Class A amp.
I tried really hard to find a replacement, but no chance at all 😰
Hey Ron. Great video. Question, would the amplifier impact the speaker position? ie would you need to rerun the LOTS positioning with each amplifier?
Cheers.
Can't speak for Ron.
However no, ... no need to re-establish positioning after amplification changes.
Optimizing loudspeaker positioning, be it LOTS or otherwise, is about front/sidewall involvement, as well as room excitation.
The other element variable is listening postion.
Your room's modal resonances are fixed (same regardless of speaker or listener positions).
Which resonances are excited depends on loudspeaker position.
Which resonances are heard/experienced, ... depends on listener position.
So ... all that is independent of amplification.
Good luck
Sorry, inter aural timing differences cause soundstaging, not amplifiers. If you believe it's something other than what I just put out, bring out your measurable data and show how your gear has it while something like a Fosi does not.
You say that like you know what you're talking about, so lets see if you can answer a simple question. With regards to the information you just "put out", can you reference any type of test or evaluation that was done using real science, not junk science, to show that the information you say is fact, is actually based on real science, on any piece of equipment ever made? Just one reference, and it can be on anything you like. The reason I'm asking is, for all we know, you could have just made it all up. Share the information so we can see it for ourselves.
I highly doubt you'll be able to answer my question, so we'll see. However, if you can't back your statement up, can you at least share with us what type of measurable data you can use to determine soundstage properties? If you can make a compelling case, maybe one of us would be open to further test your claims. I have a lot of experience doing detailed blind testing, while closely adhering to the scientific method.
To be honest, I don't think there's anything to what you're saying, but that doesn't mean I'm right. I just want the truth. If the truth shows I'm wrong, I'll get over it.
Hey Ron,
Did you add more diffusers on your side walls? Do you feel like those are better than absorption panels particularly at first reflection points?
I haven’t added anything more since the sound shed series. I’ve been meaning to experiment on the side walls with absorption but haven’t had the chance yet.
You are very knowledgeable, thanks for sharing your experience with us. I will check your LOTS video, wondering if I will ever be able to experience a true soundstage on my little room powering KEFs LSX II + KC62.
I think what gets missed in these discussions is secondary systems. I've spent quite a bit of time and money on my main system, and I love it for dedicated listening. But I also play music in my office while I work. I've tried taking my laptop and working while my main system plays music, but it's too engaging and it makes it hard to work. So for my office system, I don't want to spend thousands, I have to prioritize things like screen space and zoom calls. But I just cannot stand muffled, veiled sound. The improvements in the low end over the past 20 years I've been doing this are amazing, and you can get so much more for under $1000 today than you could back then. So for things like office, bedroom, or even TV setups that aren't dedicated listening, these products are amazing. They just aren't up to the capabilities of dedicated listening, and that's ok.
Hi Ron, can you explain the science behind the better sound with speakers pulled out from the wall? I have limited room depth and pulling out into the room isn’t practical for me. Some mixers and studios use in walls to remove speaker boundary interference response, is that an ok alternative, preferred or equivalent option?
I've been holding off on adding the Sparkos to my Fosi V3 monos (and soon to be received ZD3 dac). Can't wait for your thoughts on the SS3602s. Thanks.
Don't want to be a party pooper and bias anyone's findings but...
I originally ordered them along with some OPA2134 and OPA1656 for a ZA3. Left the Sparkos in for a few months, then decided to put the original 5532s back in. I ended up selling the Sparkos, still haven't tried the other two. I'm not saying the Sparkos suck, I just didn't find the results convincing enough since they cost more than the amp itself (my ears, my room, my system, bla, bla, bla) Waiting for a rainy day to try the other two out but honestly don't have very high expectations. I've got a pair of XLR cables on the way, we'll see what that brings to the table.
@@mikecees2230 I’ve seen a huge difference with XLR cables.
I used a pair of Ayiama AA07 for center and surround channels. Didn't bother to compare against a beefy 2 chan amp. Efficient, small, and do fine for movie vocals and surround raindrops and sound effects.
Curious to see what you'd think of the Topping LA90. It is not quite as cheap as the ones you've reviewed at ~$800 USD, but it is apparently the best objectively measuring amp. I'm just curious to see if, close to "perfect" objectively measured amps actually sound good or if there is something about more expensive amps, that might be considered a flaw in objective measurements, that makes them subjectively sound better.
What's the peak current delivery from this amp? What's the output power into 2 ohms? 1 ohm? How does it cope with reactive loads at low impedances?
No, this is NOT the best measuring amplifier.
It has the lowest distortion, but that's it. There's more to making a great amplifier than just applying bucket loads of global negative feedback to get low distortion. British and US amplifier manufacturers discovered this in the 1980s...
I'm not sure I understood the message here. To sum it up...are you saying that these El Cheapo amps are "OK" but fall flat when it comes to soundstage? Then what might the next step up be that does the whole enchilada? Just give me a few suggestions to start with.
Thanks
Tube buffers, used by many audio companies may be the answer to soundstage issue with class D amps.
Look at amps from PS Audio, Peachtree etc etc, that's what they do, or have done.
How about using a schiit Freya + in active mode with a V3 and see how it sounds ?
Many will be interested to know how it sounds, including myself.
That would make for a great review !
You are getting down to the nitty gritty of what audiophiles on budgets already know about class D.
What we want to know is how to fix it. Eg tubes, ifi iTube, buffers, etc.
but that flies in the face of those "perfect measurements" :D I don't disagree with you, by the way, but it's funny to strip out distortion of every kind then put it back via some tubes. Why are we doing this? The endless need to twiddle, it seems. Anyway I would very much like to see some experiments like this, too.
I can't remember which channel it was but one dude coupled the za3 with an xduoo TA-66 as preamp and had some good things to say. It's unfortunate this thing is usually reviewed as a head amp only as it looks like a very interesting device!
Anyway, yeah. I think this is the "answer" too. put the pleasing distortion back, please.
I first heard about class D sounding good from Ed Schilling at The Horn Shoppe with the old guy $20 Tripath. These were claimed to sound great with his single drivers. I bought one and thought it seemed very good for driving a single full range driver. I have often suspected this is where they shine. If one has a complex load maybe they don’t do as well. I don’t know, just a thought.
try to pair those fosi mono blocks directly with speakers without preamps. it WILL blow your mind how it will sound. less components, more direct sound in chain.and what is even great is that those amps can handle 2 ohms speakers without problems.
Is this a joke? Without any preamp you’d have no volume control. You’d blow your eardrums out if your speakers have any sensitivity whatsoever… so I guess that’s pretty mindblowing.
@@MechAdv 😂
Fosi Audio ZA3
Random ?. How often do your kids and wife listen to music in the sound shed?
And for that matter, friends?
Quite often - some more than others. Natalie is most interested in music of the three kids and comes out the most by far.
Feel free to stop by and have a listen for yourself.
@@Newrecordday2013 I love that! It’s so easy to make this hobby a solo endeavor.
Great question.
Regarding your vacuuming-day epiphany and the resultant LOTS method of speaker placement, this is something I discovered many years ago, almost by accident. The reason the soundstage comes alive is either due to physics (which I don't know) or psychoacoustics (which I have a guess at). My theory is that your ears will not tell your brain there are musicians positioned in space behind the speakers-with width, breadth and depth-if your eyes are telling your brain that there isn't room enough behind the speakers for those musicians. I don't know if this is true, but that's my theory and I'm sticking to it! And my speakers are nowhere near the wall behind them.
Late 70's, I walk in my best friend's girlfriend's house ... I'm greeted with glorious ADS three-ways, three or four feet off the front wall, and a single loveseat for listening!
WTF? This is awesome!
The ADS' had a product I think was called "Echo-Muffs" behind them ... a three sided foam absorption piece to place between the speakers and the front wall.
I believe my official introduction was via HP's Rule of Thirds.
Wise words. But the new systems are mainly replacing cheap hifi set-ups and not high end ones. More affordable systems will allow more people to achieve high quality sound and they will evolve into high end buyers eventually. The standards will evolve and not the basic market structure. So let's welcome change and be happy to see high quality systems being talk of town again. This is good at all levels 🙂
Totally agree with that. Some people are happy driving a good Honda Civic and others have to have a Lexus
Good speakers, room treatment, and/or room correction for better sound stage, not amps. An amp has to be linear and dynamically consistent over its power range. That's its only job. That's all it can actually do.
Can't wait. I hope you cover the "right" preamps when you do these tests.
When you say "does it open up the soundstage" do you mean relative to what you have, or what I might have (Goodwill) and others might have (say, good vintage gear). In other words, more can it produce a good soundstage, or not.
What about chip cheap amps that Danny uses ......what do u have to say about those .....or probably a nice valve preamp with class d amps
Demo a buckeye or VTV amp with purify modules. Excellent amplification can be inexpensive IMO
Ron, I can’t wait. I have a question to go with this. Do u think that powered speakers may suffer also?
Yup I do.
Those Gallos were pretty damn good. Anthony was obsessed with getting the best possible performance from his sphere concept. They almost got their designs into big box stores with their Chatsworth offices, but alas, it wasn’t meant to be.
Kudos for the vid Ron and for keeping it classy! Appreciate you!
Actually just picked up the Douk A100 last week and have many hours on it now. I have had large horn speakers with SET 300B amps and a nice tube preamp. That was a sweet sounding system but no longer have the room. I do however have that tube amp which cost around 1K. I put that in front of this Douk A100 and I am hear to tellz ya all...that is the best I have heard some recordings out of my current speakers(Mirage 0M9's). They are about 5 ft into the room. One recording i listen to often to evaluate sound is the Last of the Mohicans movie Soundtrack. Never sounded this good to me and even with the George Wright 300B SET amps. Go figure.
For the $100 i was able to score the Douk for last week when they were running their 50% off sale, ...can't beat it. Hell i would have thought it was $100's of dollars more.
Also...i do own the Fosi V3 as well. The Douk is the winner. The Fosi does dig a touch deeper and stronger but the A100 has everything else in spades. The mids and lower mids are incredible and the highs much nicer.
Anywhooo....that's my 2 cents. Maybe that is more like a dime now with inflation.
Thanks for sharing your feedback!
I have two systems. My "main" system is a Sunfire tube preamp ($3k when new), an NAD C268 80wpc power amp ($1k), and a pair of BSR 3 way speakers (bought used in excellent working condition - not the high end but they sound good and move a lot of air) and an Eversolo DMP A6 ($800). Here's my "second" system: a pair of Fosi ZA3 mono's upgraded with Sparkos op-amps, a $400 Music Hall pre-amp, $200 Cambridge DAC Magic 100 all feeding a pair of KEF Q350's. This is not an apples to apples comparison. But according to conventional audiophile wisdom, there should be a yawning gap between the two systems in terms of quality. There absolutely isn't. It's actually incredibly funny to me how not-yawning that gap is. To make it a bit more apples to apples I'd have to get a second NAD power amp to run in bridge mode for mono block replications (which I intend on doing) and I'd have to also get upgraded speakers - I've been eyeing Monitor Audio Silver 500's for a long time - $3k. So now look - to achieve what I now anticipate being a much more serious gap in performance, I'd be spending another $4k at least. What these smaller, cheaper Chinese amps are showing a lot of people is not simply that there is a value proposition, but that all that money we're spending in the supposed mid-tier (which I still consider high end, because, reality) is not buying us what we always assumed it was buyinig us.
the law of diminishing returns
@@larrylevan3378 I think the lesson is different. That from now on, you can enjoy the value and far better than decent performance proposition this class of equipment is offering. Or, if you want a really serious difference, a couple of thousand of dollars isn't going to do it anymore - you're going to need to go farther upstream.
Ron, Speaking of music sounding so right with using relatively new ideology. - When I was visiting the quite a few rooms at the Pacific Audio Fest 2024, one of the 3 rooms that really impressed me was using the Vanatoo Encore Plus mated with a single Roger Sound Labs Speedwoofer 10S Mk 2. So, my request is - Maybe you could get a pair in for a NRD review ($700)? - For a little under $1200, this combo was very enjoyable to listen to (I will spare all of the audiophile details and verbiage - that's your job). The revolutionary part, $1200 is it. No amplifier matching needed, no expensive cables to consider, and so forth. Maybe, just a good set of stands for the Vanatoos and room placement experimenting for the subs. Anyway, please consider as it seems like you have cracked open the door a little in the realm this combination seems to thrive in. Thanks
What would you recommend two fosi monoblock or an emotiva basx a2 to power a pair of Polk ES55 towers?
I replaced onboard nCore amplification for a pair of the Fosi V3 monos as a toe in the water pending some sort of upgrade. Brought the speakers to life for not much money. Bang for buck, right now I doubt the Fosi V3 mono can be beaten. The head unit has Dirac, system sounds epic.
Running a pair of the Fosi ZA3 amps in mono via XLR, the XLR cables cost more than both amps, to power my Maggies. They sound incredible, much better than the A/B amps I have had in the mix, and just as good as much more expensive Class D amps. My Fosi's are staying to power the Maggies. The Fyne's and Zu's, we have tubes and Class A A/B for that.
What other D and A/B amps have you compared the Fosi to?
@@michaelcampbell9459 Deer Creek, their latest, and the XTZ Edge A2-400. Class A'B, TonewWinner AD-2PRO+, Parasound A23+, Emotiva XPA-2, Denafrips Thallo, and a couple of others.
For A and A/B, my ToneWinner is pretty hard to beat, my buddy owns one too, he compares it to his Mark Levinson, his world, not mine. I just know it sounds fantastic with my regular speakers.
Now the Maggies, to my ear they sound much better with a Class D amplifier. The Fosi ZA3 units get the job done in spades. And do it without even breaking a sweat. As far as sound quality, Class D to my ear is Class D, very fatiguing. On the Maggies, no such issues.
Not sure if this has been brought up but the Texas Instruments chip set is revolutionizing the game (as long as you have the power supplies they make serious power). Sure it is not only about power but power with great processing and you have something very special.
IMO the TH-cam audio review industry has reached an inflection point. With a small number of qualified reviewers out there a lot of the wannabes are struggling for relevance, even if they don’t know it yet. The room treatment is incredibly huge and to your credit run you realized this. 90% of the people watching TH-cam audio reviews don’t have the experience of hearing what you are describing.
Anyone is welcome to the Sound Shed. I’ve already had some visits and they had a wonderful time.
@@Newrecordday2013 man, it would be my dream trip to see you and Danny sometime and eat some barbecue!
@@CashGravel come on down!
I have an emotiva dr2. My daughter wanted a similar system. So I got her these cheap little fosi amp and pre amp. Thing is amazing for how small it is
I have an Aiyima A007 amp and I did replace the op amps in them but I used some upgraded Burr Brown op amps. They have very good specs. Opa2604p op amps. When I first tried the amp I thought I was hearing some small issues but after changing the op amps everything has sounded great since. You wouldn't believe the speakers I have them matched with. :)
speaking of chifi, have you tried any of the Gallion Audio gear? Looks interesting. Speakers are said to have an almost magical midrange. Plus they now offer an El-34 integrated. I love the sound of those tubes.
Politically speaking, Chi fi is just another arm of the CCP/PLA alliance which has a singular goal.
I have two JBL towers close to the middle of the room. And listen to them near field. Like desktop near field. First I did it as a joke, but when I heard them, and they way they image. We all need to try more stuff and judge less. We might learn a thing or two in the process.
Usually the wrong kind of measurements are used to really show how ”class-d” amps are worse that conventional amps.
The issues are in the higher frequencies. So up to 2-3 kHz ”class-d” is really smart.
And of course they've been used in subwoofers for years because they don't produce much heat. 20Hz to 500Hz is fine for class D. Now it is starting to branch out and up. Those Hypex and Purifi chips are definitely a step up from the cheap TI3255 chip, but yeah, more expensive too for that added fidelity.
I tried a class D amp and found it to be speaker dependent. Of the 3 sets of speakers I had, it mated fantastically with a pair of Kef LS50 Meta speakers but did not with my open baffle speakers or my Nola Boxer 3S speakers. I sold off the Class D amp plus preamp and continue with tube integrateds.
The answer is , America is a status country, we will not buy cheap Chinese electric cars either, no matter how well they work. We will drive our nice big truck to the grocery store.
I also dare you and anyone else here to try the Topping B200 monoblocks. They have so far turned this skeptic into a believer.
Objectively, the Topping B200 are likely the best amps money can buy right? But that won't convert people who believe that something that is sold for tens times the amount should sound ten times better. Furthermore, an amp is an amp. You shouldn't even need to buy the B200 to get reference level sound. Let's see these reviewers get together in a room and do some double blind testing on amps and DACs.
@@c0mbat15There is one place the B200s perform terribly. Current delivery. This is something that's completely ignored by the SINAD is everything crowd. It's a good marker of how an amplifier will drive real world speakers, but isn't even measured by Amir. The complex load measurements that are starting to appear are a good starting point. Guess what happens with a lot of these small amps? They fall apart into the 2 ohm complex loads, with limited power output. Power into low ohm loads requires big power supplies and output transistors. Guess what, these are expensive.
@@RacingAnt Thanks for the explanation. Is this an issue for all speakers or just the few that are hard to drive? Furthermore, is this only an issue when playing above a certain dB level? I'm guessing that for most speakers and normal listening levels this won't be an issue at all?
@@c0mbat15 not only that but if you’re getting into these super inexpensive amps why not just run everything active to behind with. 6 channels at 100 watts per channel for a pair of 6 way active speakers and dsp to time align and eq each driver to within 1db and aligned to 1/100th of a millisecond for about $2000 including drivers! Please tell me what driver is asking for a 2ohm load that isn’t a sub….i’ll wait……
Soundstage doesn’t come from the damn electronics! It comes from the damn driver dispersion, which is dictated by the enclosure, baffle, and crossover. Period.
This is the issue.
200w@8ohms, and
200w@4ohms ... renders them anemic.
The evolution of the audio hobby is being driven not just by affordable amps and DACs, but by technological advancements as a whole. Traditionally, the "audiophile" community has centered around legacy technology, with many enthusiasts either resistant to change or adhering to outdated, unscientific beliefs. However, as technology progresses, modern surround sound systems equipped with automatic room calibration are becoming increasingly sophisticated. These advancements are poised to make traditional two-channel setups appear outdated and cumbersome in comparison, reshaping the landscape of high-quality audio.
Great job Ron. Love your videos L.O.T.S.! And yes it works. A big beautiful opened soundstage is where it’s at in my book. Before, my system sounded two dimensional, dead flat. No depth, and very little separation. Whether it was a crappy recording, or a wonderfully engineered soundtrack, it didn’t matter, it all sounded the same. Now, I can tell when Willie steps up to the mic a little closer and starts Hello Walls, or I can hear the labored breathing in Over the Rainbow from the big Iz. Your reviews are informative and educational, and above all, your wisdom is greatly appreciated. Keep being you brother!
Love the Gallo Reference 3.1 speakers. I still have mine.
Well stated video Ron. Would be interested to see how these small amps work on High Efficiency, Mid Efficiency and Low Efficiency speakers.
I have an expensive system, and also a cheap system comprised of diy made fostex backloaded horns and a low power tripath amp. And i have to say this particular combo has some real magic to it. Sometimes you can find a really good combo with certain speakers and amps.
Speaker placement and room treatments probably have orders of magnitude more effect on soundstage than an amp. I think it's a bit ridiculous to knock amps based on how "they" soundstage, so I'm a bit confused on how you are linking the two, or are you?
Haha, I was vacuuming and stuck my speakers near the wall and between furniture whlile playing music and I found they sound like never before - the soundstage suddenly appeared and the base became as it should be from these speakers... And now the music sounds wright as far as the system allows.
I thought soundstage comes from recording / speakers / room interaction
@@mike70-d5b I can't understand how an amp or dac can change soundstage. The three things you state are spot on. The only other thing being speaker placement (which I assume you kind of covered in your reference to room interaction).
@@c0mbat15 yes, that's what i mean. The amp multiplies the input signal by a factor (gain), i cannot understand how you can change the soundstage with that ... unless the amp have really high distortion / noise and then "hide" information, but these little amps are champions in low distortion / noise.
@@mike70-d5b an INCREASE in distortion (low order) and noise has been shown to INCREASE the perception of soundstage depth. Why do you think people add tube pre-amps to class D power amps?
@@RacingAnt well, for me it's a nonsense ... I have a class D and sounds wonderful, more detailed and bigger than my previous "audiophile" class AB. But, I respect any opinion.
@@mike70-d5b awesome that you get great results with your class D. What amp do you have? There are spatial cues in the music (echoes, delays, phase shifts, etc), but only if they were captured in the recording. Amplifiers and dacs have their place in preserving this information. Frequency response and SINAD figures won't give any clues. But, 99% of recordings from the last 40 years won't capture this information, as it's all done with mics less than an inch from what's being recorded. So, no ambient information is captured.
Soundstage is never specified technically, only appreciated empirically and is dependent on so many factors beyond the amplifier electronics (speaker positioning, room reflections mitigation, speaker crossover design and tolerances, channel balance tolerance and cross talk to name a few). That said, a linear phase response in the audio band and well-matched Bode plots between the two channels should suffice to provide optimal for stereo imaging in a pair of power amplifiers. This should not require silly money to engineer.
Excellent consideration and presentation Ron. I particularly like your summary that suggests continued developments may rock the industry, but not just yet. Well done.
Oh, that will change audiophiles forever. Err.. what is an "audiophile" again? Because i only hear this term on such videos about amazon links. If you can explain what audiophile means then i will click on your amazon links.
Lots changed how I listen to music and movies. Everyone should try it at least once
Ron appreciate your thoughts about these little amps I can only add that they are really good cheap FUN.
Ron, like you I’m a fan of soundstage and my room is well treated too! I’ve bought two fosi za3 for fun. First try, in stock stereo mode, I would have thrown them in the garb.. period. Then i decide to add OP amp in both of them using them as mono amp and I disconnect all the input and output chips I was’t using… forcing those little thing to focus on my needs. Then I place them close to my speakers with only 1 feet speaker cables 😆 …So I went from I hate them to ok they can sound good ´´not high end class’’ but good. That’s it. So with a good pair of speakers and a well treated room they can sound good …that’s it, no fireworks.. sorry !
A British Audiophile gave the V3 a “outstanding”. He talked about the components being first class.
How do you use a powered sub in a dual monoblock set up?.. asking for a friend😅
I discovered speakers soundstage with monitors, the "generic" but tuned amps are inside the speaker.
I got one of these Fosi V3 amps for the giggles. With the 48V power supply, the amp still sounds kinda flat to me. I got it for a bedroom setup but it wasn't good enough even for that unfortunately. I don't have an axe to grind about class D - these chinese amps just don't get the tonality right. There is no body to the instruments that should be there and the soundstage was kinda flat. I really wanted to try Class D seriously and ended up getting a NAD M10 V2 all in one which is perfect for bedroom setups as it has everything you need in one box. Now that is a serious Class D - smooth, full sounding and no glare.
However there is still a lot of evolution necessary before even the best of class D approaches tube tonality. My main system still runs a monoblock with a quad of EL34 tubes on each channel.
I really think it all comes down to where you are in your audiophile journey. To some people these cheap amps are a breakthrough (compared to what they have been using) and these people are just excited to share their experience and also potentially looking at some of these videos with some confirmation bias. (we are all guilty of this at some point I'm sure). These cheap amps should really be looked as for their value proposition and their ability to drastically improve someone system as they start their journey. At the end of the day if someone enjoys it, and it gets more people into the hobby, I think they are great. We all know at the end it won't be the end of our journey, forever searching for the next best thing.
I think this is a very reasonable way to look at it.
I would encourage people to travel to a really good HiFi shop that has a proper high end room setup and experience what music can really sound like. For me in my 20s it was in Minneapolis. It completely blew my mind, I'll never forget what it sounded like. The sales people knew I couldn't afford that stuff but they were super cool and happy to demo to an enthusiastic young person. Then the trick is to start chasing down that sound for a small fraction of the price. GR Research is a big piece of that value proposition puzzle.
I have yet to listen to D-class amplifier that I do not find fatiguing but I’m not a reviewer and I only have limited experience of them. I found interesting though that reputed speakers maker Kef choose to use D-class for the bass and medium speakers in their KEF LS60 but not for the tweeter because of issues…
I use a Fosi Audio ZA3 with Sparkos Labs Opamp upgrade with Elac 310.2 Jet speakers on my desktop.
Since I am happy with the performance I thought I should compare the Fosi to my Pathos Classic One Mk3 in my main system. While it had no problems driving my big tower speakers, it was simply lacking in musicality, airiness and realism. I didn’t enjoy it at all.
I also have some cheap Chinese class-A clones (JLH 1969 and Musical Fidelity A1)
They sound much, much better than the Fosi. No comparison.
The Fosi is for sale now.
Can you talk a bit more about your 1969 and A1 clones please? I am considering the a1. Looks like a great budget choice, a class a amp for so few dollars.
Funnily enough, I also have a Musical Fidelity A1 clone (the power amp version). IMHO, with my Acoustic Invader class A preamp, it doesn't sound quite as good as my Icepower class D A2-300 power amp. The main difference is that the A2-300 has the better soundstage -- not that the A1 has a bad soundstage, mind.
I think my DIY Decware ZF15M open baffle speakers help a lot with soundstage. I suspect most amps will produce an enhanced soundstage with a decent pair of OBs. Certainly, my closed box Quad Revela 1's aren't quite as good from the soundstage POV, though they do have their own virtues of course.
I guess the point I'm making is that an amp is only a part of one's system, and not the only part contributing to soundstage. If one is going to test amps for soundstage, it's important I think to keep everything else the same. As regards musicality, well, IMHO soundstage is a part of the picture. I've never heard any of these small Chinese Class D amps, but if they produce a reasonable soundstage, then I think they're at least on the road to musicality.
@@brandonmcneal7659 In my system I preferred the A1 clone over the JLH 1969 because it hat more warmth and sweetness, more character. The JLH 1969 was very clean and I guess my preamp (it was actually an ifi DAC) added to the clean and neutral presentation. With a different preamp this will be different for sure. But the A1 clone came really close to my Pathos amp. Not quite, but for this price I would recommend it without a doubt. But be aware that these amps only have 10-15 watts and get very warm. They work best with 90db+ speakers. Yes they work also with less efficient speakers but they are not made for that.
@@johncallaghan3097 I didn't find the A1 clone to be especially good or bad in soundstage, but as you said, the speakers and the rest of the components play a role. Soundstage width seems to be limited by my speakers, no matter what amp/preamp I use. But the depth can vary quiet a bit. Over all the Fosi ZA3 with Sparkos Opamps had a good soundstage. But the tonality was just not there. The timbre of instruments was not refined, Mark Knopfler's guitar on "You And Your Friend" lacked presence and failed to cut through the mix, while in other parts, it was harsh and almost piercing my ears. It just felt "cheap" while the cheap clones did a much better job.
@quma001 thanks for your reply, particularly the comment on Knopfler's guitar. One piece I would really love to hear on an "endgame" type system is Donald F agen's "Brite Nightgown" on his Morph the Cat album. Incredible guitar over brilliant instrumental arrangement! A lot to listen to.
I think it's time for fully active systems. No crossovers everything in the digital domain, that means seperate amps for tw mid and woofer and lots of processing power. It's what the ICE are doing, you can get 14 channel class d amps with DSP now for not that much money and create any kind of sound you want and get the max out of speakers. That is the real revolution.