Dennis Braunsdorf - Speaker comparison
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ต.ค. 2024
- Dennis Braunsdorf compares the Neumann KH 310, the Genelec 8351B and the Dutch & Dutch 8c Studio speaker systems in his own studio. First he plays an existing piece of music on all three systems to get a first impression. He then works with each speaker set for a month so that he can get used to the new system. All three systems are calibrated using the internal DSP systems. Curious about the results? Watch it in this video!!
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Dennis Braunsdorf (1988) is a composer and researcher in music technology. Dennis is specialised in electroacoustic compositions for media, in particular for Hollywood movie trailers and commercials. In the last years he has established a list of credits, including compositions for Hollywood movie trailers, films, and commercials. In 2014, he achieved the Buma Music In Motion Award. In 2011, Dennis founded the company ‘Braunsdorf Music’, and in 2016 he became partner at ‘The Solos B.V.’ Dennis academic path started in 2009 at the University of the Arts in Utrecht (HKU). In 2013, he archived a Bachelor of Music with honours and in 2015 a Master of Music degree at the HKU. In 2021, Dennis achieved a PhD at the Bournemouth University in England. His thesis scrutinises the impact of his newly designed virtual instrument upon composing western popular music voor commercials and movie trailers.
www.braunsdorf...
Video & editing: Fleur Braunsdorf
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I'm a software developer at Dutch & Dutch, glad to hear you like them! What do you mean exactly when you say you "need to start them with an app" ? If you switch them off and on with the switch at the back they'll power back up in the same state they were in previously, so if you use external volume control then there's no need to interact with the app after initial setup. We know we have plenty of users who never touch the app.
are you competitors of Kii audio?
@@ProfessorJohnSmith I'm just a dev and don't really know much about our market segment or competition.
@@ProfessorJohnSmith Kii Audio system 3 (with their sub implementation called BXT) is 9 000€ more expensive than a pair of D&D 8C, so, yeah, well, I wouldn't say they are competitors but they get compared a lot.
@@MatthijsvanDuinCan you steal me a pair of 8Cs?
D& D needs a way better, logical and clear App, it is so messy, and if you do not use it often you go back to the App and you get lost, the app does not match at all with the quality of the speaker, is the least intuitive app I've ever seen..,,,please jsut to have an easy and logical menu with clear names is not hard to do ....it is easier to understand the menu of a new DAW than the ascend app
Kind of weird to talk about how they are in different price ranges, and then never actually mentioning the price? Yes, I can Google it myself, but it seems like pretty relevant information.
how do they sound tho
In case somebody else wants to know prices: It's roughly 2500€ for Neumann pair, around 6000€ for Genelec pair and 15 000€ for D&D 8C pair.
@@niklassilen4313damn you get Neumanns cheap where you’re at. They’re about 6k CAD and the 420s are around 15k
Neumann 310s are actually around 3600€ for a pair. @@niklassilen4313
excellent video thank you for making this!
Curiously, The first thing I noticed when I got my Neumann KH-310's was how accurate the presentation of the reverbs were, I could clearly hear the tails of the different reverbs going simultaneously. different ears in different spaces perhaps...
Unless you have heard truly high-end setups (which the Dutch & Dutch are) you wouldn't be saying that. But yeah, indeed there is some measure of subjectivity to all of this. Some might even argue that hearing absolutely everything is not at all optimal for most mixing cases. Personally I'd happily mix with any type of sealed box speaker (aka the notorious Yamaha NS-10) + good pair of headphones as high-end fine tune and reference. And I have access to and have worked with high-end audio for many years now (decades actually), yet my current go-to setup and where I've got my best results is a simple pair of Slate VSX headphones (albeit with carefully tweaked custom EQ settings) + good headphone amp + good DAC (Prism Audio). This simple low-cost (if you disregard the headphone amp and dac) setup yields better and quicker results than I could get with 20k€ + 100k€ studio room. Yeah, we live in strange times.
@@niklassilen4313 I am saying what I say, And I have also owned and heard many many sound setups , in studios and in hi-end audio since the mid 90's , I love this stuff. I think its fair to say that different people work and respond differently to different equipment. Some folk like transmission line and back loaded horns with tube amplifier to listen to jazz or orchestral music, others like RnB in car speakers. Personally amongst all the hi-fi speakers that have crossed my path, I very much like Tannoy's coaxial speakers, Their soundstage and musicality are night and day compared to the Neumanns and other accurate studio monitors. In a studio setting where accuracy is the subject, the Neumanns do however, to my ear give me the information that I need to hear , just the way I need. I have not heard the Dutch and Dutch , I am sure they are amazing, Along with so many other great pieces of equipment. I did also once have a system that I thought was to revealing, as an analogy, it was like a photo where every aspect was in perfect focus, so amazingly clear and crisp, yet our eyes dont see that way , I'd imagine to some degree the same is true for our hearing, perhaps the way we perceive different types of distortion is one of them. I have also noticed myself leaning away from DSP and digital power amplified monitors, I dont know why, but I absolutely love the sound of Tripath amplifiers, more than multiple Class A and other expensive amplifiers I have had. I am glad to hear you have found your 'go to setup!" truly can be a long journey. When I build my next studio I am aiming to go with DSD, so Prism Audio is on the menu! I have a hybrid system ATM ,to much to list here, but I will note that I am mixing ITB and OTB, and many respectable digital convertors I am hearing in recent years via a console are bringing me back sonically to when I first started my recording journey with a Neve + 24 Track Reel to reel. I suppose my main point here is, technically better or even perfect may not mean it is going to apply that way to everyone (or all the time) and most importantly here, I really appreciate this video comparison you have made thankyou..!
Nice comparaison! I did test the Neumann KH 310 but not the others. I bought Buchardt A10 with Purifi woofer. The are a big step up from the KH310 and they don’t need a subwoofer. Flat down to 25hz. Room correction, peq EQ and very good DAC for 5000$ a pair. Depth, hi freq, imaging, all incredible. Not for a big room but perfect for a medium room like yours. I’m sure the Dutch and Dutch are great but they are pricey…
Awesome video.
I wonder how speakers from M.E. Geithain and PSI Audio measure up in comparison. :)
Genelec makes even bigger and better speakers, with a completely different design, higher end. Should test some of those.
I looked on the Dutch and Dutch 8c on their website and the frequency response is listed at 30 -20khtz, not 20-20htz.
i own a pair, they go pretty flat until about 17hz for me
I ended up going with the Kii Three over the D&D. Slightly lower price point, but the integrated controller and tighter bass fits my situation better.
What’s the integrated controller? Do you listen them tor personal music or only producing?
I was going to mention the KiiThrees since they are similar tech to the D&D and are comparable in price. I would have recommended them as a final audition test against the D&Ds. Thank you for bringing them up. Many people seem to choose them over the D&Ds. They are perhaps less opulent but have a clarity and objectivity that is second to none.
Nice review. Not sure why it brought out the haters in the comments. Everyone hears differently people.
Duch and dutch are one of the most impressive monitors out there easily :) there is one that I heard right next to Dutch and dutch once and it was even better..but when I say better I mean in a studio way better more for mixing then Dutch. Cause Dutch is a little Hi-fi - ish. Amphion one25A their first 3 way. Amazing speaker with 10inch sub cone!
Or Genelec 8351B.
Have you heard or used HEDD TYPE 20/30 mk2 range? Im interested how they compare to Genelecs and Neumanns
Type 20 BLOW AWAY EVERYTHING WHAT I HEARD I SHOW ROOM. Love them
very interesting ... having 8351B for more than a year now i can relay a bit to this "mids all over the place" thing. I use them for home listening and wouldn't say this is huge disadvantage. In some cases is even interesting and more spacious then let say a super focused image. But on vocals its sounds somehow chaotic, because part of the spectrum (more in the heights) is focused and part not but you expect from a focal to be focused.
Still very enjoyable speakers.
I have other criticism on D&D, but i heard them only for a 2 hours and nod in my room, so wouldn't say i can judge them really. But one is sure - vocals are phenomenal with them.
did you consider the Kii Threes?
I think if the room has big issues acoustically, no software can really fix that.
The genelecs may have sounded much better in a flatter room
I really like the Neumann 310s but we use PSI A25m here as well as Geithain 901k for mains. Is it worth the extra money? Well I just do production work and I like a bit of energy in the room when doing that. A big clean bass speaker in a properly designed room, especially when you're doing mostly all electronic music (techno, UK Garage, house etc,) is an inspiring thing to have access to. I wouldn't want to work any other way. If you have to make mixing decisions in these genres you'll want speakers that can go down to about 28hz with minimum compression. But I reckon if all you had was the Neumann KH310s you could get away with producing club tunes without too much trouble. I would say that phase coherence on both the PSI and Geithain is perfect almost. Amazing for analogue only speakers. Okay the Geithains are a point source speaker so perfect phase is maybe not surprising. How PSI have managed to do it in a traditional driver configuration is a mystery to me but they did. But yeah I love mains and big speakers in general so for me extra money is worth every penny since it inspires a bit of energy while I work.
All the speakers discussed in the video and comments are point source, the Geithains are coaxial - like the Genelec in this video.
@@CollectiveIntelligenceMusic Well not quite. Neumann's are clearly arranged in a traditional way with the drivers not all emanating from one point. Geithains are coaxial yes but that's a separate, additional, feature. Point source meaning drivers are arranged to physically all fire from the same place. But anyway whatever. This is maybe an aside. The main thing is I don't think Neumann speakers would be a bottleneck. Rest is just preferences I guess.
@@Screaming-Trees That's not what point source means - point source is a term used to define a speaker that radiates sound from a single source, all of those speakers do that because when speaker drivers are positioned in the way they are on the Dutch and Dutch and Neumann they acoustically couple to one single source - making it point source. They don't need to be co-axially aligned to become a single/point source.
@@Screaming-Trees Let me start again, ALL of those speakers are point source - drivers should be within 1/4 wavelength of each other to act as a single source, which they are in these examples & as a result they act as a single point and emanate sound in a cylindrical pattern from the loudspeaker - the Geithains are point source, but the drivers are coaxially aligned which can help with time alignment and combing/phasing around the crossover points.
@@CollectiveIntelligenceMusic Okay let's split some hairs then. All speakers are point source but some are more point source than others is what you're saying. I am being facetious of course. Yeah the drivers are aligned not because this "can help" but because it does help and is clearly better than 1/4 length proximity when it comes to phase. Genelec have done it for precisely this reason. Even with all their dsp trickery you can't beat that kind of driver positioning. But this isn't going to matter. And that was my point. I think the Neumanns are fine. I would only ever upgrade from those if I wanted big, big, big speakers. Emphasis on big. Once you get past the Neumanns you are spending enourmous amounts for 1, 2, 3, 10% whatever. Whether or not this makes sense is on a case-by-case. You would know your own situation and whether this is worth it. I don't mix and I didn't buy the Geithains for perfect phase. I bought them because I wanted big mains. The other feature I was interested in was the cardiod bass response as that is actually something tangible that can help. Because I only write and produce I wanted something to keep myself inspired through the day. But if you don't need that the Neumann system might potentially be a great solution for you. It's not going to be a bottleneck. Berghain system goes down to 30hz. If you're writing tracks for those kinds of clubs you just need to worry about that. The rest of is case-by-case and preference. You would know better than I what your use-case needs.
You do not need to start the speakers with the app, and thank God for that! that app is so messy
No. Skills are more important.
Honestly, you having a problem mixing mids with the Genelec ones is more of a skill issue. If you're working with pianos etc, 700hz-2k dependent stuff, in general having a lot of fights going on in the mid range, you should be looking at ATC's. Sure D&D 8C is cream of the crop but everything is purpose dependent and ATC's would be far superior in terms of mid range detail. Nonetheless, the genelecs still should be accurately giving you all of that, failing to mix well on those is a skill issue.
It would have been cool to do the comparison without knowing which speakers you're listening to at the time.
Then speak about their sound
Then have someone reveal to you which was which.
Then give your thoughts on the whole experience
I have genelec 8351b for one year im working everyday Producing mixing and mastering and i think you are wrong with that you think Genelec have bad "Mids" if you load Calibration on Genelec you midds going on you face i can hear every instrument , and how i mix on monitors i can hear on car or phone all instruments clear only i can tell you with them you need subwoofer for real to 20hz because 8351 going down to 32hz and on genelec you can work like 10 hours you ears not will trick like some others if you work to long you making bad decision on mix and you can mix on lower volume which i work on that peace guys
i thought the gennys 8351’s had isssues some issues reseloved in the newer models……..i guess the midrange wasnt one of them 😂
Dennis was using GLM 4 ... GLM 5 and 8351 firmware updates along with crossover and multiple profiles will make the mids sound wonderful. Unfortunately Genelecs do need minimum 3 listening profiles. What I really enjoy with the Genelec is that no matter the volume level, they always sound accurate ... I tend to listen at lower volume.
It's probably too late now, but GLM 5 and selecting the correct crossover frequency paired with Genelec 7350A sub are amazing, better than the Dutch Dutch IMHO. With that said, I need 3 GLM 5 profiles for my workspace. One profile is single to a very specific position (main listening position in front of my monitor) and tuned for keyboard (KORG Pa5X and DAW). Second profile for multi-position so I can move around my work space and still have a great listening experience and again with my DAW/KORG. And finally a 3rd profile for standard music listening where I have a different crossover frequency set and use GLM 5 for single position and then tweak the parameters until I get it perfect (for my ears anyway). The Genelec setup does need a different profile for regular music listening to bring out the Mids. I do like that the Dutch Dutch 8C doesn't need a sub and to be fair, they're only $2500 above the Genelec with a sub.
I have a single 7350A paired with 8331As. Bass management is seamless from 20 Hz, but the main speakers are adjusted about -3,5 dB. My listening distance is about 1,2 to 1,4m, I don't see why you would need a larger model like 8341/8351 in near field conditions.
@@syntheee Primarily the higher rated power output allows for much lower volume level listening while still retaining all the detail. 8351B 250w + 150w + 150w … 8331A is 72w + 36w + 36w. Don’t get me wrong, I think the 8331A are great monitors and cover the spectrum but they just don’t have the same kind of energy response of the 8351B.
D a nd d 11k . 🤣What an comparison. Stone with diamond
Try Amphion two 18 :)
Don't need to look at the video, I already the Dutch and Dutch will win.
sighted review is biased for more expensive ones, rather pointless overall. There's nothing wrong with the midrange on Genelecs, you may be not used to hearing it precisely after Neumanns with comb filtering from non-coaxial driver. On the other hand there are real and measurable distortion issues with D&D, it's fine for recreational listening but there's a reason they aren't really seen in any real studio
They are also designed to work with GLM ecosystem. Genelec make dummy models that are setup differently for plug and play, but the smart ones are not designed like that.
Which real studios are your reference ?
Can you provide a source for the distortion issues you mention?
@@l.s.1709 There are various measurement on a few sites if you google it.. KH310 ($5k) have very low distortion, while the Dutch 8C ($15k) have relatively high distortion that is audible in different situations at normal listening levels. I have not heard the Genelecs ($8500)
A more reasonable comparison would have been with Neumann KH420 ($10k) possibly with subs, Ex Machina, ATC, and others in that higher price range.
@@l.s.1709 Guess my first comment was deleted... Dutch & Dutch have pretty high distortion, audible in normal listening levels and it's been measured. You'll find it on various sites with a search.
Pointless.
Listen, I know the music was sped up. What is this music today? It's garbage. Who cares what you are monitoring on with that crap. Lol.
The generation before you said the same about your music, so stop being such a boomer.
Listen, that's Gen X to you. That music is crap for such good monitors.
@@donnowak4304 I don’t care what generation you are, you‘re behaving like a boomer.
Of course they are but these are not expensive speakers.
Neumann 150 is better than all 3 of them - and cheaper :)
Not even close. Get an education. 👍
While I not agree that they might be "better than" or "worse than", I do agree that you can make the 150's (or any other same/upwards price range monitor) work wonders and never need anything else ever again. It's all on your skills and experience at that point.
@@hithere4289 the thing is, neither of these monitors are particularly good. 310’s have directivity issues because of the compromised baffle design, the Genelec have their usual harsh treble, and the 8C is a LF distortion nightmare. The 150 is just a better design than all of them.
please talk four india speaker four equalitee and four no make race my friendly
Shut up
Supposedly "Barefoot Audio" is the "best" studio monitors in the business. And most likely you'll need to win the lottery to afford them. Some "really good" German made Studio monitors is certainly Adam Audio. Probably in the same price range of Genelec. But you get 3 way monitors instead of Genelec's 2 way monitors. That's what turns me off about the Genelec brand, is lack of 3 way monitor offerings. For "the best" budget friendly (mostly) studio monitors, there really is nothing that compares for the price to Kali Audio and their studio monitors. Their 3 way monitors some of the best monitors having better sound quality against monitors that are 2 and 3 times the price of theirs. Neumann overrated and priced in my book.
Genelec is 3-WAY - 218 mm Bass, 130 mm Midrange and 25 mm Treble. What are you talking about?
@@theshoemaker1 he doesn't know what he's talking bout..
No one considers barefoot the best. I actually recently found out they were part owned by vintage king which is why they were in so many studios, seemed like a big marketing push.
Also Neumann are extremely underrated speakers. No one actually hypes up Neumann even the people that have em lol.
What are you talking about? Genelec "The Ones" are all three way 🤦🏻♂
Is the genuine simple thought no they're not
There is no Golden Horn or golden woofer or golden mid-range or golden mid base driver. How old is any of the miracle clarity of what your ears can hear.. what your ears can hear in your brain can recognize all you will ever know. Disconnected so why go for that ultimate siren scream of which will never understand or understand audibly