Do amps matter even for cheaper speakers
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ต.ค. 2024
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Thanks for taking a question with modest budget gear, there are some of us who won't get to the high end stuff but we still want to have fun and learn.
I really like your answer to this question. I would only add that, if you want to change amps or any other electronics in a system with modest or budget speakers, I would consider getting better speakers that address your current wants/desires. I’ve gone down the upgrade road and I have seen others do it as well where the problem was something specific like the speaker and upgrades/changes in equipment just aren’t going to address your needs. Upgrades can be a black hole in which you and your money disappear with little to show for it.
Hi, I've been in the hi-fi hobby a long time, and over time, I've found myself putting a lot more emphasis on amplification, and less on speakers. I've not heard the RP-600m Mk II, but I would be shocked if it didn't improve with better amplification. Currently, my best amps are a pair of NAD C275BEE's that I'm running as monoblocks. I've been able to hear the difference between the NADs and my other amps on all of my speakers - not night and day, but not subtle either. Just my opinion - don't underestimate how a good amp can improve your whole system.
Love to hear more about this topic- and this video fit the bill, thanks! Keep them coming pls!
Great video and I really enjoyed the explanation of how the system can be improved with the use of the same product or be more efficient with the use of the products you have.
What you’re talking about near the end is, I think, called gain matching, and is certainly important when there are as many components as modern systems often contain.
I have a set of monoblocks and a stereo power amp. They both have the sane power rating, though the power amp has a larger transformer. They both have the same db gain. They both cost the sane. They are both connected to identical speakers via identical lengths of identical speaker cable and they are both connected to the sane source equipment via the same preamp. They both have their own, individual, unmistakable sonic characteristics. They both sound totally different to the premium integrated amp they replaced. I’m not proclaiming that all amps should sound the same. I’m saying that in my humble experience, they don’t. I’m not claiming that as indisputable fact, I’m just passing on my experience.
Super informative video and perfect timing. I was wondering if a more expensive amp would improve my sound and you just saved me a lot of money. Thankfully I don’t have any noise coming from my system so if that’s one of the criteria for a good amp then I think I’m good for awhile on that front. Cheers!
@@decaf77 what amp do you currently have?
@@JR-ho5qm monolith 9 channel, powering Arendal 1723 monitor LCR. The amps definitely not top tier but it works for my small home theater.
@@decaf77 that amp should be pretty decent! I wouldn’t worry too much there. 👍🏻
@@JR-ho5qm I'd like to put a bunch of you through a blind a/b/x volume matched test with the $55 chifi stuff, and all the way up through each clas, few hundred to thousands of dollars to see how you score.
@@trauma50disaster1 admittedly I probably wouldn’t do very well lol!
A poweramps only job is to boost an output signal! Whereas with an AVR, is responsible for receiving & processing the signal. Even if an AVR is using external amplification, it's still the components within the AVR that will be responsible for quality the signal.
Boosting an already established signal is basically giving one more of what ones already got. Hence, always keep things evenly balanced.
Great info, thanks man. Ron at New Record Day, had a great video on amps today also. Highly recommended.
Specifically on the flood of cheap-fi amps inundating the market that are getting all the rave reviews of “groundbreaking” and “annihilates the legacy brands”,curiously most generally by sponsored channels. 🤔
Interestingly, many of the current flavours of the week utilize the same TI amp chip with extra bells and whistles. Maybe it’s just my ennui from over 60 years in this hobby, but am I the only one who can live without touch screen displays, VU meters or RGB bias lighting behind my TV screen? I just want an amp that doesn’t complain or malfunction when fed complex or dynamic content, and that has little discernible flavour of its own.
@@fonkenful You are not the only one that can live without all that stuff... I can too.
But.. I can't live without a deep, wide, lifelike sound stage. It's hard to accomplish.
@@fonkenfulthere’s plenty of amps like that. Matt even had one on here not too long ago (Fosi). Most of the Hypex amps he mentioned are also like that. Cheap and insane performance.
@@dashcorbett7354 Indeed, and as much as I hate to use a tired audiophile cliche, or invoke a brand name, the sometimes painstaking journey to arrive at the right combination of the multiple components required to arrive at that destination is, well, synergistic - and not easily found by plugging some values into a spreadsheet.
Speakers make much bigger difference and should be the first on the upgrade list. Good speakers have 3db swings up and down which is much more than most amps. That amp with 2-3k tower is going to be better then those Klipsch with 2-3k amps in most cases.
I have a colleague that’s an audio engineer as his side business, he’s a professional electrical engineer, and he has told me that if you run the same preamp to any sufficiently high quality power amp to reach the desired SPL without distortion, load dependency, or current limitations, then you’ll get identical sound. But if you plug that same power amplifier into two preamps of similar quality, you’ll be able to measure differences in the room.
You just gotta do your due diligence to make sure the amplifier you chose can power the speakers you have given the chosen SPL.
Amps sound different, and speakers sound different, but it has always been true -- and now more than ever -- that price has little to do with it. I've heard $6000 Hegel amplifiers and $500 SMSL amplifiers and one's preference is 100% down to taste and taste alone. Quality differences enter into it not at all. In related news, I recently went on a speaker-buying mission and heard a $1500, a $2500, and a $260 pair of speakers, in that order. And I bought the third one, and I couldn't be happier with them.
I deal with the efficient speaker with amplifier that may be less than perfect. However, I'm not sure if that matters, your perspective would be helpful here if you are at a seated position where the hisss can't be heard or only heard when just 2-3 feet in a dead silent room. We are talking JBL 2152H roughly around 103db sensitivity, my iNukes NU4-6000 does have hiss but only when the room is completely silent and I'm like 2-3 feet from the speaker. So I think you are correct it will take a lot of effort to really hear something, unless you purely need more power to get louder?
Great coffee mug!
The one thing that was a big difference between my pair of IOTAVX pa3's in bridged mode vs my Purifi Eigentakt monoblocks, was the bass.
When A/B comparing them, the IOTAs had a very strong muscular bass. Very similar to Denon. When i switched over the the Purifi's, the bass was leaner in comparison, but had more detail, texture, and control with the bass. When i stopped a/b testing them, the Purifi's on their own didn't sound lean at all. In fact, when i got used to the Purifi's and swapped to the IOTAs, the IOTAs came across as bloated and wooly.
I suspected that the difference was Damping Factor. My speaker cables after termination have a resistance of .0079 ohm for 10ft lengths, so i know they won't take away all the damping factor the Purifi's have. We are talking about damping factors of 47 for the IOTA vs 941 for the Purifi after speaker cables are factored in.
Now what about a speakers wild impedance sweep with their electrical phase and how the amp is going to control the speakers at those big spikes and crazy dips. I have the Martin Logan 60 XTi's and their impedance drops down to 2.1 ohms and 45° of negative phase shift at 90hz.
Are all these combinations the reason why i heard a vast difference between their bass? Everything else was almost indistinguishable. Is the reason why many people dont hear a difference is because their cables and especially their terminations are undoing any and all damping factor from these amps?
Damping factor can play a part in long cone excursions at low frequencies, but it's unlikely that with any DF greater than 20, it will become audible unless you concomitantly have issues with speaker cabinet or crossover resonances to exacerbate the problem.
I would first want to find out why your speakers are dipping to 2.1 ohms. In my experience this kind of deep dip is indicative of a crossover issue. Without testing, I'm just guessing but it is possible the low pass filter for the woofers is over-damped, which can cause resonant behaviours that are exacerbated by the lower DF of the one amplifier.
Great stuff,but your camera moving in and out is really distracting.
I thought it was my eyes at first 😅
I have been on an amplifier bender (mainly class a/b solid state stuff) and I think they sound incredibly different, especially at low listening levels, the good ones are few and far apart, Clear trend that high damping factor/feedback if my least favorite by far.
I mean if an amp does 100 watts per channel and the speaker can do 600 watts each, wouldnt it be more benefitial to have a more powerful amp? Im assuming that only matters the higher volume you go but wouldnt still matching the speakers wattage to what the amp itself can do, be better?
When I became lucky enough to obtain the 470wpc(@ 4ohm) amp that is now connected to my 4ohm budget tower speakers I was nearly in tears due to the vast improvement to the expanse of the dynamic range. No longer do they sound just over flat and bland. At the same SPL they dig deeper and stronger while the mids and highs are more clear.
I have play those speakers on many amps from ChiFi class D to this 50 pound beast. Having a higher wattage amp on a speaker is a really a good idea. It's kinda like having a truck with 3 engine choices: 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, 8 cylinder - which engine is able to pull more weight at the same speed. Lots of guys think a big amp instantly boosts the volume of the speaker, well sure it can play much louder, but it's about controlling the speaker cone well.
Of course, this is just my opinion and the info that Matt gives here is expert quality.
All the best, Kevin
@@welderfixer thanks. so yes better amp with more wattage, better performance
That really depends how close (if ever) you are to approaching the limits of the amplifier driving them. If you're running a very efficient speaker in the high 90 to 100dB range at 1W, and you only listen to relatively comfortable sound levels, you're probably not using more that 10W of power per channel. This is why a lot of audiophile types rave about their 5-10W tube amps all the time, as they are perfect for comfortable volumes with efficient speakers.
On the other hand, if you're speaker sensitivity is down in the low 80dB range, you will need a ton more power to hit the same volume levels. In that situation a more powerful amp would be needed if the 100W RMS can't get there.
There's also the situation that a very high power amp typically has to run a high gain for full output. This high gain with a sensitive speaker like a Klipsch could actually be a real problem as the high gain will also amplify the noise coming from your pre-amp. This would lead to an audible background noise/hiss that would have been a non-issue had you gone with a lower gain amplifier even if it had less power.
@@ZackCrain Yes sir, but performance also depends on the quality of the amplifier as Mr. Poes said. So, buyer beware.
@@BalanBro2 100%
Loving the videos, but you make me think I smoke too much with the focus moving :)
Sound stage, imaging, and separation are all the things I notice in a better tier amp.
True, but theres a limit in the chain. For example, you could have an amp with the best sound stage in the world. But to get the most out it, you need equally capable speakers.
Integrated or power stage of separates? I have a colleague that’s an audio engineer as his side business, he’s a professional electrical engineer, and he has told me that if you run the same preamp to any sufficiently high quality power amp, meaning enough current, channel separation, capacitance, and distortion free output power to reach the desired SPL, then you’ll get identical sound. But if you plug that same power amplifier into two preamps of similar quality, you’ll hear differences. So unless the power amplifier sucks, it will not color the sound, but it’s pretty unavoidable that different preamp topologies will color the sound. So comparing integrated to integrated, you’re likely comparing the preamp. Convinced me to go separates early on with my fascination with the hobby.
@@MechAdv most of my comparisons have been integrated to integrated. But I do believe that there could still be unmeasurable sound differences from power amp to power amp. I’m a believer in high quality parts. I have heard sonic improvement in upgrading speaker crossover parts with higher quality parts equal value. Some engineers will say crossover parts don’t matter because it can’t be measured. However the sound proves otherwise. At least these are my feelings on it. 👍🏻
@@JR-ho5qm Without controlled double blind testing, we can’t really know about the unmeasurable(meaning lacking a measurement protocol to quantify) aspects of sound quality. My colleague was referring to in room measurements of the system.
@@JR-ho5qmkeep in mind that placebo effect and bias are incredibly strong. People hear differences when there aren’t any. It’s pretty interesting and yet also annoying.
Something I noticed is if you rise amp power to max or very high and control the volume from the source sound worse than put it source to max volume and control the volume from the amp. I was using a Sony DH190
That’s most likely because of the gain structure and high distortion kicking in with the amp.
In all likelihood neither should be at maximum.
What I generally do is crank the pre-amp up to about 90% then adjust the power amps for my maximum comfortable listening level. Then I will control the actual listening volume from the pre-amp.
With the pre-amp maxed out, you could be clipping the input to the power amp. With the power amp maxed out, you could be clipping the speakers before the pre-amp reaches maximum.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 that depends on your Preamp’s output voltage and the amp’s input sensitivity.
@@andrewskaterrr
Yes it does ... but it also depends on the input to the pre-amp which could be feeding it a larger than normal signal.
The point is you don't actually know these levels without testing.
I NEVER run any part of a system at full gain. There's no reason to do that.
Thanks!
Truth is - all amplifiers that add to the sound *in any way whatsoever* are adding distortion. Everything that changes the original signal is, by definition, distortion. It's a matter of whether you like the distortion or not. Whether you want that distortion or not.
Speakers are infamous for adding distortion. They are almost always your #1 source of distortion. So much so, that everything else is typically a distant second.
This is usually why people recommend your speakers be at least half your entire audio budget regardless of your overall budget.
A $100 stereo is likely to sound better on speakers costing $500 a pair, than a $300 stereo on a $300 pair of speakers.
But here is the catch.... price is a really poor indicator of quality for individual speakers. It only works like statistics. All $500 speakers are slightly better than all $300 speakers. But there are some real dogs for $500 and some real good $300 speakers. You really have to dig into the reviews to find that a lot of high priced speakers have some serious flaws in them. And every once in a very rare moment, someone will produce a really good sounding speaker at a decent price. And they often disappear from the market just as fast as they appeared.
And there's another catch: a lot of reviewers are terrible reviewers. They will plug any garbage for the money. Or their review is so superficial, that they never find any flaws. You have to be really super careful of who you trust.
POES for President ? You split a whole lot oh hairs in that explanation to be fair UR did say you could not really answer his question....1992 I installed my first Personal Home Theatre wired it with silver clad 14/2 shielded.....The most flexible source was Laser Disc and VHS HIFI....
Your points of view are interesting....
Input Matching... Will fix 99% of hum after learning that I gain a skilled with a Fluke 87 meter to find a ground loop even if the cable ran over a mile.
Just get Benchmark gear and one and done.
For all 15 channels? lol. Personally I’d rather have Purifi with better efficiency.
@@andrewskaterrr ha, no of course. For two channel. Yeah purifi is perfect for home theater. I’m just not into home heater. Cheers
@@Nightjar726 I figured so 😉
@@andrewskaterrr ha, thanks man
Cable gauge has something to do with dampening factor ?
Boy ... if you dont know what it means it fine but please dont just make things up.
If your speaker benefits from high damp factor depends on your speaker Design. Ported subwoofers are likely ( not always ) to benefit.
Yes it does ... the resistance of the speaker cable is essentially in series with the output of the amplifier and he speaker. So it is going to affect the DF rather significantly.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 elaborate on significantly. please. if your cable is made out of wet wood?
@@12P14D22C
I tried presenting the math to explain it... but got censored.
So here is a second try without the heavy math.
Damping factor is the ratio between the output impedance of an amplifier and the impedance of it's load. DF = rL / rA
So we have an 8 ohm speaker and a 1 ohm amplifier ... DF = 8 / 1 == 8
Now add in about 0.1 ohms for the speaker cables ... DF = 8 / 1.1 == 7.2
Of course real world numbers are going to be higher...
@@Douglas_Blake_579 you cable is far away from 0.1ohm in pretty much every usecase.
But sure, i shouldve added that if you run VERY long distances with not proper cable for what u use. it may start to do something.
Shouldve worded it nicer. in a real world scenario, your dampening factor is not impacted by cable choice in any meaningfull way.
Thats a better way to put it, shouldnt have been that aggresive with my statement.
Thanks for calling me out.
@@12P14D22C
As I mentioned the real world numbers will be different but the method remains the same.
I've seen systems starting out with DF over 500 brought down to 20 by bad wire choices. But you are also correct that it has to be a pretty bad choice for that to happen.
In my experience (admittedly limited to 40 years) any damping factor over about 20 is going to be just fine.
Enjoy your day, and thanks for the correction.
You fail to mention speed of transients, ability to accurately produce attack and decay. Different soundstages that are wider, higher or deeper. Space between instruments, clarity and timbre. All these can clearly be heard as differences between amps. AV amps in my experience dont even come close to HiFi amps having owned many of both. At minimum run a separate 2 channel amp via Pre-Out for at least front 2 channels. Ive never heard a good AV amp, I currently own a Denon AVC-X6700H and it doesnt even come close to any Naim, Roksan or Hegel 2 channel ive run with it. The difference between listening to music between them is not even close. I think the big difference is that your talking mainly AV amps. In my experience AV all sound pretty much the same.
Yeah I think something is off with his hearing or perception that normal hearing tests don't catch.
@@Pete.across.the.street
The same could be said for you with your largely imaginary differences.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 ok troll
Your ears can measure resolution relative to another amp. It's a thing
I've heard very noticeable differences when I've switched amps. Amps around the $2000 price point. Your wallet must be happier if you can't tell a difference though. Everyone has different ears.
Integrated or separates?
@@MechAdv separates
@@MechAdvseparate
Placebo and confirmation bias. I bet in a double blind test, you wouldn't be able to differentiate.
@@pb24dagrk I've done the test. Easy to tell apart.