Finding Freedom in a Frontier Life | National Geographic

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 มิ.ย. 2015
  • Meet the American Mountain Men, an invitation-only group of reenactors who are inspired by the fur trade, which flourished in North America from roughly 1800 to 1840. For one week every year, they leave the modern world behind and return to a time when survival meant self-reliance. From roasting buffalo meat over a fire to sharing tips on how best to load a flintlock rifle, these men thrive in one of the last truly wild corners of the West.
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    Read more about the American Mountain Men: ngm.nationalgeographic.com/201...
    VIDEOGRAPHY: David Burnett
    EDITOR: Spencer Millsap
    Finding Freedom in a Frontier Life | National Geographic
    • Finding Freedom in a F...
    National Geographic
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ความคิดเห็น • 269

  • @CumberlandOutdoorsman
    @CumberlandOutdoorsman 3 ปีที่แล้ว +77

    A life I used to dream of in my younger years. It would be hard but the freedom that comes along with it would be rewarding.

    • @glennevitt5250
      @glennevitt5250 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Me Two in my younger days😎💯

  • @BJLee-zf5yh
    @BJLee-zf5yh 5 ปีที่แล้ว +208

    i love The Mountain Men Era and Wild West Era forever and always :D

    • @unlimitedperseverance1706
      @unlimitedperseverance1706 5 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      They committed genocide, had terrible hygiene, and most didn't even know how to read.
      YEAH.... what a great era!

    • @dn2ze
      @dn2ze 5 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      BJ9564 Lee more like went to the mountains and trespass onto Treaty Land and because of it Americans broke the Treaties...it’s amazing how much they avoid talking about this. If you think about it they were stealing from the Natives...

    • @BJLee-zf5yh
      @BJLee-zf5yh 5 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      @@dn2ze i know

    • @stevenvilla5086
      @stevenvilla5086 4 ปีที่แล้ว +22

      @@dn2ze if the Europeans didnt come and conquer just like any other civilization did around the world, the natives would be a race of people still stuck in the stone age dancing around in animal skins, sacrificing each other so the sun comes out the next day....its not native land, they didnt just sprout here they migrated here. And they lost what they found to a superior group or groups of people...get over it.

    • @Gadget-Walkmen
      @Gadget-Walkmen 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      martini carbine577/450 that doesn’t mean anything. What point does that serve?

  • @reallifehorsemanship4333
    @reallifehorsemanship4333 7 ปีที่แล้ว +134

    Man I love this stuff...

  • @ra777wow
    @ra777wow 5 ปีที่แล้ว +82

    I wish it was like that everywhere

    • @clasdavid5450
      @clasdavid5450 5 ปีที่แล้ว +35

      ra777 Yea I don’t want no big cities everywhere, I want nature and some little villages here and there.

    • @clayforge4696
      @clayforge4696 5 ปีที่แล้ว +17

      Calle XVI Gurra wouldn’t that be real nice, a nice place to be, people who actually have respect and manners

    • @clayforge4696
      @clayforge4696 5 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Not saying there aren’t any now

    • @clasdavid5450
      @clasdavid5450 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@clayforge4696 yeah =)

    • @23pyromaniac
      @23pyromaniac 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @mr system just America? What about China? Or Russia?

  • @tonnywildweasel8138
    @tonnywildweasel8138 5 ปีที่แล้ว +21

    Fantastic! This is a life worth living.

  • @kabarjim
    @kabarjim 8 ปีที่แล้ว +76

    "Longarm" or Larry as some know him is astoundingly the real deal
    Mountain man. I have been gifted to have known him for quite a number of
    years. He is most knowledgeable and he has on occasion shared his
    knowledge with me. it brings me the kind of joy that one can only get
    through history books or even better! Thank you for being a friend
    Longarm!

  • @SeaDog337
    @SeaDog337 6 ปีที่แล้ว +80

    Keep it alive, boys.

  • @achimschuetz
    @achimschuetz ปีที่แล้ว +6

    I have seen this great video so many times. The guys really live their dreams. I envy this cool and rudimentary lifestyle.

  • @curtismarean6963
    @curtismarean6963 3 ปีที่แล้ว +15

    Great video! Love this era and what it entails. These boys look like they have been there and back. We need folks like this to keep the old ways alive. These people are probably the only ones that know what real freedom tastes like nowadays.

  • @ramonebronwasser6787
    @ramonebronwasser6787 5 ปีที่แล้ว +26

    I would like to live like that

    • @jimbobojim4634
      @jimbobojim4634 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      LOL they don't live like that, they LARP on the weekends...

  • @bushhippie7372
    @bushhippie7372 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I find myself drawn to pirates and mountain men more than any other American figures. And it’s always ultimately about the freedom.

  • @kraigfallwell7066
    @kraigfallwell7066 8 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    I remember being there for the rendezvous where most of this was shot.

  • @gunshiptana9452
    @gunshiptana9452 5 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Peaceful life, I love it.

  • @deadeyeguy45
    @deadeyeguy45 5 ปีที่แล้ว +116

    Then the bounty update came out and cut the sell price of all animals by 50%

  • @threeoeightwadcutter2820
    @threeoeightwadcutter2820 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Great. This is what living history is all about

  • @isaacwhite9255
    @isaacwhite9255 5 ปีที่แล้ว +14

    I wish I could hear a full song of what that guy was playing

  • @Platano_macho
    @Platano_macho 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    This is the freedom I love about my country and right now it’s not looking too good

  • @user-pn4dr5hk6o
    @user-pn4dr5hk6o 5 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    Молодцы!!! :))) Приятно было посмотреть ! Хотелось бы попробовать окунуться не надолго в эту культуру. Нооо , я из другой страны.

  • @LarpCraft
    @LarpCraft 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    Excellent. Shared in our Wild West system to help people learn.

  • @dhackens
    @dhackens 5 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    I like studying the history of the mountain men and the stories. Hugh Glass is my favorite.

    • @dn2ze
      @dn2ze 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Dan Hackens he got saved by Natives too remember that lol

    • @cowboygains5883
      @cowboygains5883 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Dan Hackens yeah Ive always enjoyed the story of Colters Run

    • @irishtrapper9149
      @irishtrapper9149 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@dn2ze He didn't actually.

    • @dn2ze
      @dn2ze 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      VolunteerEMS he was the movie didn’t tell the whole story but then again when has an American ever admitted what Natives have done for them. At least Canada has enough honour to acknowledge indigenous people and what indigenous people did for them...remember Europeans wouldn’t of survived if it wasn’t for Natives and Inuits...

    • @irishtrapper9149
      @irishtrapper9149 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@dn2ze Ok that's true.. Mountain men often spiced up their stories too...so I guess it's possible he's lying about a solo 200 miler on foot and was helped along the way by natives. Sounds crazy when you think about it.

  • @smasher6655
    @smasher6655 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    This is very cool ! I love that kind of stuff

  • @dewuknowHIM
    @dewuknowHIM 5 ปีที่แล้ว +36

    Nothing is as it seems anymore...but I would think when shtf...they could survive quite well....

  • @janklimo7644
    @janklimo7644 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you for all!

  • @pnyarrow
    @pnyarrow 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great video - respect and good luck. Stay safe. ATB

  • @tonynapoli5549
    @tonynapoli5549 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Must of been tough though. Thanks for sharing. 👌👍

  • @Jack_Klash
    @Jack_Klash 8 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    I'd love to join these guys on a trip...

  • @clayforge4696
    @clayforge4696 5 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    I, honestly, wish to live a similar way of life, a more traditional comanche and Cherokee lifestyle though

  • @Anonymous-bi2wy
    @Anonymous-bi2wy 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    This is super cool stuff.

  • @lapualapua3591
    @lapualapua3591 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Brilliant

  • @nachogroucho
    @nachogroucho 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Lucky guys! What a beautiful and rewarding life.

    • @killer3000ad
      @killer3000ad ปีที่แล้ว

      Rewarding? most mountain men met a grim fate at the hands of First Nations peoples.

  • @louiscifer5438
    @louiscifer5438 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    oooh Year!!!

  • @urbanesoul8400
    @urbanesoul8400 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Look like a great group of knowledgeable & laid back guys you could learn some really cool stuff from on a black powder hunting trip with them...

  • @veronicajohnson9179
    @veronicajohnson9179 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    I would love to live like this

  • @DJMoore-001
    @DJMoore-001 9 ปีที่แล้ว +20

    Hell Yeah

    • @davestuart1581
      @davestuart1581 9 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Hell, I could watch a couple hours of this and not get tired of it... 
      It would be more 'fun' doing it tho...
      DJ, we never did get together for that horseback camping trip. Damn shame too. That coulda been a blast...
      I think tomorrow I'll be finding my campsite in the woods in North Fla. It'll be fun, 'til the weather turns cold, then we'll see if I can still hack living outside all year long.
      Last time, it snowed here... It wasn't too bad 'cos I was living on my sailboat... This year it'll be a tent in the woods.. Lmsao... I'm too young to turn pussy yet! Lolol... 

    • @DJMoore-001
      @DJMoore-001 9 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      WHAT? And you didn't stop by and hang out in the rain for a week or so???

    • @davestuart1581
      @davestuart1581 9 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      D.J. Moore
      Lmao... We had hard rains at least 2 or 3 times a day every day from San Antonio.... Rain you couldn't see 40 ft in front of you and ya couldn't take a chance on stopping for fear the guy behind ya might run yer happy ass over!!!
      LMMFAOROGL. I mean it was a rush... Wish we coulda slid by to say hey to y'all but U Haul and hills aren't a good mix...
      We will catch up to ya tho... Have a great day... TTYL Dean... Hi to all..

    • @DJMoore-001
      @DJMoore-001 9 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Damn.

  • @serpicoserpicos546
    @serpicoserpicos546 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    ΑWOSOME....

  • @franciscomastrogianni8286
    @franciscomastrogianni8286 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Fascinating way of life I know that’s the way I would have like to live it when you let a form of live dictate to you something dies inside of you and that something it’s Freedom!!

  • @littlejimbridger7770
    @littlejimbridger7770 8 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Fine doins boys, shinin times!

  • @margarethsales5518
    @margarethsales5518 ปีที่แล้ว

    Muito legal morar ai

  • @keithneitzke2578
    @keithneitzke2578 7 ปีที่แล้ว +23

    I too want to know what the name of the song he was singing? This is a life I only dreamed about living. one day one day

  • @grizzlyman9865
    @grizzlyman9865 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    I hunger for this style of life.

  • @Detman101
    @Detman101 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Jesus...those are some REAL tough guys!

  • @joshjameskiwibushman
    @joshjameskiwibushman 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    good on ya lads

  • @rickiex
    @rickiex 9 ปีที่แล้ว +65

    4:19 uhmm thats a nice propane tank grill ya got going there lol

    • @docdarlin5491
      @docdarlin5491 8 ปีที่แล้ว +30

      there was a "burn ban" on at the time of the filming in that particular camp. Scenes were filmed at several camps at different times.

    • @docdarlin5491
      @docdarlin5491 8 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      +Mitch Speth Let's see your kit.

    • @tomcatt1824
      @tomcatt1824 6 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      rickiex ::: they had propane bac then,,,, but de refill stations were few n far between. ..

    • @fearthespear4242
      @fearthespear4242 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Tom Catt, not in the 1820's and 30's

    • @lonewalker33
      @lonewalker33 5 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      Unlike in the 1800's there was no fire bans so the scene with the propane tank had to be used for cooking. Later in the video there was no propane anything. The fires were started with flint and steel in snowy conditions. I know some of these men and I am a member of the AMM. Unlike the modern campers who would likely not last very long in the mountains the Mountain men of the AMM would.

  • @johnh2198
    @johnh2198 9 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    i learned from my granddad, you guys will not be around for ever teach a kid, bested thing you guys could do.

  • @JB-wj6vc
    @JB-wj6vc 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I would love to do this for a month after high school

  • @nickeyfynn3270
    @nickeyfynn3270 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    2.25, i want those shades...

  • @nurfuad3690
    @nurfuad3690 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    masook pak eko 😁😁😁👍👍👍👍

  • @mitchellyoung589
    @mitchellyoung589 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    I would love to do this

  • @cherokeeproud9531
    @cherokeeproud9531 6 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    Wish I could join.

    • @brosschroeder5881
      @brosschroeder5881 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Cherokee proud95 I

    • @FrontierLegacy
      @FrontierLegacy 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      I looked up the requirements. Simply find a member in your area and they will teach you what you need to know and sponsor membership.

  • @mr.mercury4247
    @mr.mercury4247 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    I have that exact same pair of fingerless gloves haha.

  • @jimallison6292
    @jimallison6292 5 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Hook me up brothers I bring my hounds we get some Bear you can skin a Grizz lol

  • @adambielecki549
    @adambielecki549 ปีที่แล้ว

    Super film.Tylko szkoda że nie ma lektora po Polsku😉

  • @chrismccarver2734
    @chrismccarver2734 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Give me the rendezvous now

  • @St.RedEagle
    @St.RedEagle 9 ปีที่แล้ว

    3:50 chuckle chuckle vision!

    • @sungdavidkim1
      @sungdavidkim1 9 ปีที่แล้ว

      It matters what's in the inside, not the outside,haven't you heard that?

    • @St.RedEagle
      @St.RedEagle 9 ปีที่แล้ว

      Sung Kim oh of course! I totally agree! However, that doesn't take away from the fact that he looks like Barry Chuckle

    • @St.RedEagle
      @St.RedEagle 9 ปีที่แล้ว

      Sung Kim why did you find it mean?

    • @sungdavidkim1
      @sungdavidkim1 9 ปีที่แล้ว

      Sorry I didn't get you're comment

  • @hawkenrifles
    @hawkenrifles 8 ปีที่แล้ว

    Un video precioso sobre la vida real de los "Hombres de las montañas" en EE. UU.

  • @johbowfor
    @johbowfor 7 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Anyone know what song that was that he was playing on his guitar?

  • @jimbobojim4634
    @jimbobojim4634 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Invitational only... These are the best of the best when it comes to LARPers.

    • @irishtrapper9149
      @irishtrapper9149 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      LARPera trying to make themselves feel better, ahahaa. These are men who are trained in primitive survival skills. You wouldn't last a day in the bush. Stop trying to compare this to LARPing because they are not pretending to be anything they are not. Moron.

    • @ShaneyElderberry
      @ShaneyElderberry 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@irishtrapper9149 A day is a bit of an exaggeration. It's also North America. It's much more dangerous in Africa, South America, Asia, and Australia than North America. Contrast the laziness of these contemporary mountain men with contemporary marathon monks, who walk 80+ km every day through the mountains for seven years without any days off, with a walking stick, a hat, and straw sandals. Those are survivors.

  • @brucewayne2255
    @brucewayne2255 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    I want that life

  • @Caj165
    @Caj165 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Are you guys ever in the Utah mountains???

  • @kindlethefire8486
    @kindlethefire8486 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    I have scoured the internet, and cannot find period correct sunglasses that match Longarms, and I want a pair so badly!

  • @austingollaher7621
    @austingollaher7621 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Anyone know who originally sings that closing song?

  • @Coloradan_Nebraskan
    @Coloradan_Nebraskan ปีที่แล้ว

    Does anyone know the name of the song they're playing in the background of this video (sung by the gentleman with the guitar and mustache)?

  • @starmotorsports8937
    @starmotorsports8937 7 ปีที่แล้ว

    I WANT TO DO THIS

  • @chrisandersen2456
    @chrisandersen2456 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Where can I join I'm very interested in the fur trapper era

  • @JC-xc8rx
    @JC-xc8rx 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Secret in the mountain.

  • @jonnyt2381
    @jonnyt2381 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hey guys
    Does somebody recognize the song played in the background?

  • @CRJines
    @CRJines ปีที่แล้ว

    The one thing that really gets me, is wearing moccasins in the snow. I can't get my mind around that...

  • @pavelnemo5824
    @pavelnemo5824 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Мужики, я вам завидую.

  • @i_see_u_0_0wweee99
    @i_see_u_0_0wweee99 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    How would one go about joining these men?

  • @erikscherder92
    @erikscherder92 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Did they have sunglasses in those days? :))

    • @noobie1890
      @noobie1890 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Erik Scherder they had “sunglasses” as far back as Mesopotamian times lol.
      You ever see those stupid look glasses from with no lenses and only those horizontal lines across them? Well that’s how “sunglasses” were first made, except they used bones to make them. The idea was, the window blind-type design kept the sun out of your eyes much better.
      Hats worked better though.

  • @Citiglobal88
    @Citiglobal88 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Where were these people filmed at?

  • @derekkrause9251
    @derekkrause9251 ปีที่แล้ว

    This is cool and all but what about getting medication for things such as high blood pressure and other medical conditions? Are they allowed to take that with them?

  • @jessbakerjess
    @jessbakerjess 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    its "the village people"with altitude!!haha

    • @davidcoy4558
      @davidcoy4558 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      Jess Baker oh real funny urbanite trash!

  • @tabasajustinjakej.7715
    @tabasajustinjakej.7715 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I wanna spend a month doing what they do

  • @preston2899
    @preston2899 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    What is the song?

  • @OK-rx3xl
    @OK-rx3xl 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Those guys totally spoon for warmth.

  • @mountainmanws
    @mountainmanws 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    1:58 Breaking up roasted coffee beans. 3:23 When you purchased a rifle, you received a rifle and the bullet mold that went with that rifle. I pour my own bullets for my rifle and smoothbore. Yep, I rendezvous and winter. My main job is a cook. I do enjoy; but I don't use propane, ricklex.

    • @jimbobojim4634
      @jimbobojim4634 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      So you're saying that, You're a better LARPer than they are.

    • @irishtrapper9149
      @irishtrapper9149 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@jimbobojim4634 This isn't LARP you idiot. Stop trying to justify your little dragon Ball cosplay life. They actually trap and kill animals for meat, they live a traditional skill that men can't. They're survivalists.

  • @thehobbyshop887
    @thehobbyshop887 6 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    More like the last of the first.

  • @dennisthurman2070
    @dennisthurman2070 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    I tried contacting them and couldn't reach my areas contact 🤔

  • @Dantick09
    @Dantick09 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    I wonder if anyone makes modern versions of the weapons they used

  • @aramisschmidtke3142
    @aramisschmidtke3142 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hamish Sinclair

  • @Mr-117
    @Mr-117 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Where do I begin

  • @sungdavidkim1
    @sungdavidkim1 9 ปีที่แล้ว

    That's mean...

  • @melanieandersen5701
    @melanieandersen5701 6 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    Well I know now I'm living a fake lifestyle hope its not to late to change

  • @PoorFowlRaiser
    @PoorFowlRaiser 7 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    is this a tv series? i want the title please

    • @thechurchoftirejesus1722
      @thechurchoftirejesus1722 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Baby Ama no its a real thing people do no TV series about it though if that's what you ment

    • @clayforge4696
      @clayforge4696 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      This is made from multiple rendezvous from throughout the year

  • @gamecop2191
    @gamecop2191 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Where do I sign up . Get me out of here

  • @branni6538
    @branni6538 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Practice and learn skills and knowledge.........so the good ones among the bad ones have a chance when all this insanity crashes.

  • @Toms3rdNut
    @Toms3rdNut 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Please teach me. I'm an ex infantry eagle scout with no family. I'm planning a 2500 mile hike to Alaska. I should just double it and go to Hudson bay

    • @irishtrapper9149
      @irishtrapper9149 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      Hey you still planning on going to Alaska? I plan on doing something similar. Trapping at my final destination. If you're not over your head about it and have thought long and hard let me know, I'm nearly ready to leave. Many people say this, few actually go through it. Oh well

    • @noobie1890
      @noobie1890 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Infantry Eagle Scout?

  • @fred5399
    @fred5399 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    OK Mountain men who was Jim Beckworth?

    • @clayforge4696
      @clayforge4696 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      fred sims that is as far as I remember, besides he had grown up on the frontier in a cabin with his family and worked a while as a blacksmith apprentice in St, Louis before he signed on with general Ashley

  • @BlackKettleRanch
    @BlackKettleRanch 5 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Back when people were still human beings.

  • @cwdor
    @cwdor 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Don't you have enough since to go to Florida in the winter .?????

    • @sharkfinbite
      @sharkfinbite 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Winter is raining season and not all of Florida is tropical. It is a stereotype. I live in a near state and we share the same weather as them. You will have days where it is good idea to have some warm clothing on days where you experience cold rain

  • @timberhughess9013
    @timberhughess9013 ปีที่แล้ว

    I just turned 18 and lookin for these fellers

  • @hizlimutfak3844
    @hizlimutfak3844 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    Running Balls or how it is called these days: ballin

  • @disclose_beauty
    @disclose_beauty 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    If i would join these guys what should I do ? How can I reach them? Telephone number ? Email? Plz help

  • @PhsykoOmen
    @PhsykoOmen 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Just need a few buffalo chips

  • @ronniebranch6528
    @ronniebranch6528 5 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    100.00CB🍗🍗🏹🐐

  • @cscjb
    @cscjb 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    RDRO

  • @cccp319801spetsnaz
    @cccp319801spetsnaz 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    "Uncharted"

  • @ronniebranch6528
    @ronniebranch6528 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    100.00CB 🍗🐗🐂🔥

  • @tommaddox1028
    @tommaddox1028 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Sorry I had to drop out. My Parkinson's is very controlling. I. Am trying how to sell my gear. I have 17 flints one copy of ahawkin buff robes books horn pouches etc. Keep up the research. From one who has been there **536