As someone who just started working in big tech after a non-CS undergrad and a CS masters, go for an online masters (like Georgia Tech) in CS. They're cheaper, and allow you more flexibility. Building side projects is a great addition, but it does infinitely less for getting your foot in the door than any CS degree would, unless you end up making a decently big product that people use. Realistically, you're never going to pass ATS at a big company without a degree or a paid internship from a known company when cold applying. Have you tried networking and messaging recruiters directly?
Sorry about the delay! Getting a Masters does seem like an easier way to break into tech. I talked to someone who's going through GTech OMSCS as well. But, I want to try everything I can before deciding to pursue this route, just because I know so many Masters grads that are struggling to land their first offer rn. When it comes to recruiters, I’ve only gotten responses when I already had an interview or met them at info sessions. Cold outreach to recruiters through LinkedIn doesn't really work, but my approach could be incorrect too. For 2025, I'm planning to move to SF to network extensively, but I should've tried online networking more in 2024. I also think, unless it's the apprenticeship programs designed for nontrad backgrounds, cold applying won't really work for my background. If you’ve had success networking or reaching out to recruiters, I’d really appreciate hearing your experience.
@@bruceysoo Ideally networking is the easiest if you have friends that are going through interview processes currently or have gone through processes and are still close with their recruiter. A lot of big companies will allow you to basically skip the auto screen if your friend mentions you to their recruiter. I would agree that cold applying and cold emailing are pretty brutal, especially if you don't have that CS degree that is the first thing they tend to look for. I have a couple of friends that were able to land roles without a CS degree after the market got tough, but they all had a STEM degree and got pretty lucky in some way that I wouldn't consider a reliable data point. Yes, a lot of masters grads are having trouble landing their first offer right now, but the key to doing an online masters is that you will at least get a lot of chances to interview. I had no SWE internships, and yet I got called back for interviews from all but one of FAANG. You get ~2 years to land any sort of internship (some of which are masters only) which could possibly lead to a FT conversion, one more new grad hiring cycle, as well as that big fat diploma. Realistically its a bet on yourself, in the same way that you are betting on yourself by moving to SF. If you've got a roadmap don't let me convince you otherwise though :). Everyone's journey is different, and the goal is just to be prepared for when that opportunity comes. Do your leetcode and sys design.
i work in tech and even with 25 years of experience it is very hard to find a job . I don't know how to tell you this but most companies are outsourcing jobs to india and easter europe. AI is also replacing a lot of roles :(. Hang in there.
Have you thought about applying to data engineering? Less requirements of cs degree + leetcode and more sql/spark and scripting (sounds like you have experience) depending on company they make 80-90% of what swes make and Econ/math backgrounds are great for it. Obviously less meaningful and scalable work, but a lot of people transition from there to swes.
Yeah, I’ve definitely been considering applying to roles like QA, data engineering, and IT. But the more I learn, the more I feel that building scalable applications is something you learn by doing. Going into an adj role might teach me a component of building scalable apps, but won't teach me the process as extensively as SWE. I don’t think I’ve exhausted all my options yet, and I’m setting a deadline for next year to pivot to an adjacent field if I can’t break in. But for now, I’m doubling down and trying everything I can.
plenty of traineeship/apprenticeship programs in the US to help people with non traditional backgrounds break into SWE, hopefully you'll get into one of those too.
The "AI" startup you did the unpaid internship with sounds crazy. I think you dodged a bullet. Outsourcing can go well if you pay decently but 750 a month is insanely low for development work in most countries.
I appreciate it! I actually privated all the learning journey videos. I livestreamed my learning journey, and because of that, my channel had like 100+ livestreams. I wanted to focus on making long-form content now, so I just made the decision to private it.
Have you ever thought about going back to school and get a 2nd bachelors in computer science . ? Especially in this economy it might be a good option and you can get software internships until you graduate and much better chance at full time offer with timing of better market when you finish school and because you have a cs degree
Sorry for the extensive write-up, but I thought about this question a lot this past year as well. Everything I'm saying is anecdotal, so it's not representative of everyone's experiences having a CS degree. But from talking to people, I personally decided I wouldn't pursue a second bachelors or masters in CS until I exhausted all my possibilities, unless it's like a program like Shopify's Dev Degree where you're guaranteed to be able to work while pursuing your degree. During the job hunt, I talked many people who pursued higher secondary education after not being able to get a job in SWE (e.g. MS in CS at CMU, UCI, Georgia Tech OMSCS, etc). And, the consensus I reached is that, even with a CS degree and some internship experience, it's still exceptionally hard to even land an interview/job. For example, the person with a masters in CS at UCI applied consistently for 4 months and didn't even land a single interview with an actual person, despiting acing a few of OA. At my internships, 3 other interns were studying CS/CyberSec, but they ended up taking the internship because they couldn't land any other opportunties. I do believe the "most guaranteed" way of breaking into SWE now is by going back to school for CS and securing a full-time offer from an internship, or by doing contracting work at a WITCH company to gain experience while waiting for the job market to improve. However, I don't know if the job market will recover in the next two years, or if it would get worse before getting better. In this job market, I think my priority should be figuring out how I can stand out as a candidate, rather than getting a second degree; whether that means talking to more people inside the industry, building projects with real users, or even doing this TH-cam channel and improving my communication and storytelling skills. I don't think there's any obvious "right" decision. I'm constantly re-evaluating my options given what I see and experience, but this is just my thought process for now.
i'd say try to see if you can apply for tech jobs at financial institutions since you have a business econ degree. might not be the most interesting but good to start out.
I definitely feel like my situation is pretty privileged/lucky. I worked throughout college and after graduating; because of COVID, there was no real fixed schedule besides exams, so I just watched lectures in one sitting (don't recommend LOL). So, I have savings and lived extremely cheaply this past year. I don't really recommend doing these things because it does affect your mental health. When I end up moving to SF next year, I'm probably going to get a part-time job and be as cash-neutral as possible.
bike next to the bed is crazy work big bro
As someone who just started working in big tech after a non-CS undergrad and a CS masters, go for an online masters (like Georgia Tech) in CS. They're cheaper, and allow you more flexibility. Building side projects is a great addition, but it does infinitely less for getting your foot in the door than any CS degree would, unless you end up making a decently big product that people use. Realistically, you're never going to pass ATS at a big company without a degree or a paid internship from a known company when cold applying. Have you tried networking and messaging recruiters directly?
Sorry about the delay! Getting a Masters does seem like an easier way to break into tech. I talked to someone who's going through GTech OMSCS as well. But, I want to try everything I can before deciding to pursue this route, just because I know so many Masters grads that are struggling to land their first offer rn.
When it comes to recruiters, I’ve only gotten responses when I already had an interview or met them at info sessions. Cold outreach to recruiters through LinkedIn doesn't really work, but my approach could be incorrect too. For 2025, I'm planning to move to SF to network extensively, but I should've tried online networking more in 2024. I also think, unless it's the apprenticeship programs designed for nontrad backgrounds, cold applying won't really work for my background.
If you’ve had success networking or reaching out to recruiters, I’d really appreciate hearing your experience.
@@bruceysoo Ideally networking is the easiest if you have friends that are going through interview processes currently or have gone through processes and are still close with their recruiter. A lot of big companies will allow you to basically skip the auto screen if your friend mentions you to their recruiter. I would agree that cold applying and cold emailing are pretty brutal, especially if you don't have that CS degree that is the first thing they tend to look for. I have a couple of friends that were able to land roles without a CS degree after the market got tough, but they all had a STEM degree and got pretty lucky in some way that I wouldn't consider a reliable data point.
Yes, a lot of masters grads are having trouble landing their first offer right now, but the key to doing an online masters is that you will at least get a lot of chances to interview. I had no SWE internships, and yet I got called back for interviews from all but one of FAANG. You get ~2 years to land any sort of internship (some of which are masters only) which could possibly lead to a FT conversion, one more new grad hiring cycle, as well as that big fat diploma. Realistically its a bet on yourself, in the same way that you are betting on yourself by moving to SF. If you've got a roadmap don't let me convince you otherwise though :). Everyone's journey is different, and the goal is just to be prepared for when that opportunity comes. Do your leetcode and sys design.
Keep going bro. If you’re getting interviews without a cs degree that’s impressive itself.
i work in tech and even with 25 years of experience it is very hard to find a job . I don't know how to tell you this but most companies are outsourcing jobs to india and easter europe. AI is also replacing a lot of roles :(. Hang in there.
Being offered $5/hr is fkin crazy
Have you thought about applying to data engineering? Less requirements of cs degree + leetcode and more sql/spark and scripting (sounds like you have experience) depending on company they make 80-90% of what swes make and Econ/math backgrounds are great for it. Obviously less meaningful and scalable work, but a lot of people transition from there to swes.
Yeah, I’ve definitely been considering applying to roles like QA, data engineering, and IT. But the more I learn, the more I feel that building scalable applications is something you learn by doing. Going into an adj role might teach me a component of building scalable apps, but won't teach me the process as extensively as SWE. I don’t think I’ve exhausted all my options yet, and I’m setting a deadline for next year to pivot to an adjacent field if I can’t break in. But for now, I’m doubling down and trying everything I can.
"Stay strong, I believe in you, and I believe in myself too." True master class.
Thank you potatohermano. Good luck on your apps too!
plenty of traineeship/apprenticeship programs in the US to help people with non traditional backgrounds break into SWE, hopefully you'll get into one of those too.
Thanks for your story my friend ❤
keep it up!
The "AI" startup you did the unpaid internship with sounds crazy. I think you dodged a bullet. Outsourcing can go well if you pay decently but 750 a month is insanely low for development work in most countries.
You can do it bruce
where can i watch your other content? where you documented your learning journey?
I appreciate it! I actually privated all the learning journey videos. I livestreamed my learning journey, and because of that, my channel had like 100+ livestreams. I wanted to focus on making long-form content now, so I just made the decision to private it.
Have you ever thought about going back to school and get a 2nd bachelors in computer science . ?
Especially in this economy it might be a good option and you can get software internships until you graduate and much better chance at full time offer with timing of better market when you finish school and because you have a cs degree
Sorry for the extensive write-up, but I thought about this question a lot this past year as well. Everything I'm saying is anecdotal, so it's not representative of everyone's experiences having a CS degree. But from talking to people, I personally decided I wouldn't pursue a second bachelors or masters in CS until I exhausted all my possibilities, unless it's like a program like Shopify's Dev Degree where you're guaranteed to be able to work while pursuing your degree.
During the job hunt, I talked many people who pursued higher secondary education after not being able to get a job in SWE (e.g. MS in CS at CMU, UCI, Georgia Tech OMSCS, etc). And, the consensus I reached is that, even with a CS degree and some internship experience, it's still exceptionally hard to even land an interview/job. For example, the person with a masters in CS at UCI applied consistently for 4 months and didn't even land a single interview with an actual person, despiting acing a few of OA. At my internships, 3 other interns were studying CS/CyberSec, but they ended up taking the internship because they couldn't land any other opportunties.
I do believe the "most guaranteed" way of breaking into SWE now is by going back to school for CS and securing a full-time offer from an internship, or by doing contracting work at a WITCH company to gain experience while waiting for the job market to improve. However, I don't know if the job market will recover in the next two years, or if it would get worse before getting better.
In this job market, I think my priority should be figuring out how I can stand out as a candidate, rather than getting a second degree; whether that means talking to more people inside the industry, building projects with real users, or even doing this TH-cam channel and improving my communication and storytelling skills.
I don't think there's any obvious "right" decision. I'm constantly re-evaluating my options given what I see and experience, but this is just my thought process for now.
i'd say try to see if you can apply for tech jobs at financial institutions since you have a business econ degree. might not be the most interesting but good to start out.
Definitely been trying to keep an open mind by applying to jobs outside the tech industry that I could write code in.
genuine question, but how are you affording rent/basic necessities if you haven't had a job for over a year? do you have a different job?
I definitely feel like my situation is pretty privileged/lucky.
I worked throughout college and after graduating; because of COVID, there was no real fixed schedule besides exams, so I just watched lectures in one sitting (don't recommend LOL). So, I have savings and lived extremely cheaply this past year. I don't really recommend doing these things because it does affect your mental health.
When I end up moving to SF next year, I'm probably going to get a part-time job and be as cash-neutral as possible.
can you give me your portfolio of yours or resume i want to see your projects and where are you lacking
brucehsu.xyz/
Tech job. 1 year no offer. Outsource. Something tell me bro is cooked.
Every