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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 มี.ค. 2021
- This video discusses the different formats of Tai chi competitions, and how sparring actually exists in tai chi and not just a meditation form.
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There are taichi ppl who straight up compete in sanda.
I think ppl underestimate how much "traditional" kung fu is still in sanda, especially with regard to the takedowns that are taught and allowed.
There's a video on yt, I think, of a sanda guy explaining some application of a taichi form. If I ever find it I'll edit the link in.
I'd love to see that
@@FirstnameLastname-bn4gv ye
Link?
@@FirstnameLastname-bn4gv This one th-cam.com/video/OoYzhuYISJ0/w-d-xo.html is a tai chi guy competing in Muay Thai. The match is basically muay thai rules and techniques but he throws in some tai chi takedowns and pushes as highlighted in the video.
I started training Shuai Jiao recently, and my Taijichuan skills have improved dramatically. Adding actual grappling to push hands has been AWESOME
The same thing happened to me. Taijiquan and Shuaijiao are very complimentary.
Push hands was taught to me as an exercise. Not a competition. It teaches someone how to use relaxed strength, develop rooting, following, pushing, pulling, bouncing, shaking, seizing and trapping, redirecting energy, etc.
You combine it with footwork and its a two person form. Which some chinese martial art styles have.
Thank you for honest observation. Most people, even other taiji "masters" don't realize that taiji is more a grappling art than striking. Most modern practitioners are products of the habit of the master not transmitting the complete art or the arrogance of a student leaving before they understand the essence of what they're doing.
P.S. the modern video of push hands is a terrible representation. My teacher would legit cane me if I looked like that.
I'd say the striking component has been a dying component in Taijiquan. It originally has a lot of striking - including punching, kicking, kneeing, and elbowing.
@@ShadowParalyzer sure sure! Striking has always and should always have striking. It's just that people tend to lean into their strengths. Two people with the same teacher, one is better at da fa,the other shuai. Their students would naturally continue the division in skill focus.
You wrong action. Taichi has also kicks and punchitz for combat taichi
@@yang5159 depends on your lineage. My teacher from Taiwan we grappled more. My teacher from Hong Kong we hit more.
I was taught 5:18 as an introductory excercise to pushing hands, not as a form of competitive fighting, but as an excersise to improve your form, by getting a better sense of balance and your own weight (which is why you still see it in modern taiji). Ypu re supposed to move on after that to more advanced grappling drills in order to be able to aply it in combat. However, most schools no longer teach that.
Most schools, sadly, are a goddamn scam. You're lucky to have learned some of the real thing.
The way my teachers explained it is that you could learn more in 5 minutes in the ring, compared to a couple of years of push hands. Plenty of these drills are like the modern swimming for underhooks, arm drags etc of wrestling/mma, but learning the sensitivity and posture in a more focused way. Modern methods stick you against a more resistant opponent immediately which is just vastly quicker.
Hi, so I have practiced Tai Chi for about 12 years now, my teacher teaches practical Tai Chi for self defence, pushing hands is the main way to teach sensitivity rooting and correct movement, there are 3 distinct types:
Fixed step pushing hands, where you start facing each other and are not allowed to move your feet, if you can be “up-rooted” (essentially off-balanced) and moved in a way that forces you to step or move your feet then you have been “pushed out” and loose.
Moving Step:
You are allowed to step and move around while attempting to off balance/throw your opponent, in competition they use a large circle you are not allowed to move out of, so you loose if you are moved out of the circle, off balanced or thrown.
Freestyle:
This is the one I have been taught and is the hardest to learn because there are far less rules (no rules apart from trying to follow tai chi principals of movement and using less force, and respecting your sparring partner). This style encompasses sweeps, trips, traps, locks, kicks and punches. While practicing these we learn to understand reach and effective/necessary force so that we can control the strikes enough not to seriously injure our partner… Accidents do happen and I have had a bloody lip a few times, or a partial shoulder or finger dislocation.
Freestyle pushing hands is not commonly taught however, probably because a lot of teachers either can’t do it or are fearful of lawsuits.
Pushing hands is practiced slowly for several reasons…
Slow practice:
- Removes the instinctual aggression and Adrenalin and helps you to learn to be calm under pressure.
- Enables you to reduce the force required to achieve pushing someone out. In using less force you can improve your sensitivity and reduce the amount of effort you need to expend so you don’t tire out so quickly.
- Improved sensitivity will improve your understanding of balance and rooting.
- Sensitivity enables you to feel almost instantly when the other person is in a bad position so you can take advantage of that split second mistake. If someone is using a lot of force, it’s much easier to feel where they are moving and take advantage.
- Slow practice reduces risk of injuring your sparring partner and yourself, especially when you are beginning and can’t control your force very well.
- Slow practice can help you think faster, learning to think a few steps ahead of you opponent. As you get better this helps when you speed up.
I agree that Tai Chi is fantastic at grappling/anti-grappling, but most of the competition clips you have seen are unfortunately not a good representation of the effectiveness of Tai Chi, and tend to lean to wrestling end of the scale and thus using far more force than strictly necessary. Tai Chi is intended to be a very close quarters fighting style, it has many kicks, knee strikes, strikes and locks, which most competition styles deem “illegal” for competition due to the likelihood of injury.
Some strikes are similar in execution and effect to the one in punch, but using open palm, closed fist, elbows or shoulders, these are often hard to see happening due to the proximity of combatants, but few actually know how to do it and just resort to hard shoves, so you rarely see it even if you know about it.
all correct. im one of the few people in the world that have gone from mma to kung fu/tai chi because i was tired of getting hit in the face. tai chi, push hands especially, changed my entire understanding of fighting and has helped tremendously in that department of not getting hit in the face, or getting taken down. qui na also really takes those grapplers for a loop. you make so many good points that only someone who knows the art can make. risk of injury, yes, most fighters are using ritual combat, meaning it has rules. on the field of battle or on the street are you going to follow rules or will you do whatever it takes to survive, to destroy your opponent? tai chi is about giving you the choice to gently lay your opponent on the ground or tear their arm off at the joint.
I appreciate the knowledge and detailed descriptions you give. As you say, the video clips shown here are not a good representation of what a highly skilled Tai Chi fighter would look like or do. Testing skills is a traditional way that someone using Tai Chi principles would engage with opponents of any style to apply the Tai Chi principles in actual combat. It's not commonly understood in the broader martial arts community that Tai Chi is a serious and complete martial which traditionally includes not just various kicks and strikes but also take-downs, throws, grappling, often joint locks and breaks, etc. But my limited experience has included work with a sifu who specializes in training for application in fighting situations, and he is extremely hard to take to the ground. He can fight effectively while on the ground but doesn't need that ability if he can't be thrown.
Tai Chi push hands (fixed or moving) is very subtle, using high-level sensitivity with many martial applications of the movements in the Tai Chi Chuan form. You could say it combines high-level body mechanics with internal power. The traditional expression as translated roughly into English is "three ounces (of energy) to move two thousand pounds". Someone who is at a higher level will feel like a brick wall if you try to push them, then they can throw you out with virtually no apparent movement on their part. The fixed push hands is a very basic traditional two-person practice (emphasis on practice, not full sparring) geared to testing the many principles of Tai Chi Chuan--rooting, Sung (release), yielding and deflecting, defusing an opponent's force, collecting and issuing energy, structural integrity, great sensitivity, and more. One traditional saying is "the whole body is a hand"--indicating that any part of the body can be used against an opponent. But you would only see that in more free sparring or at least moving push hands.
@@derosecutus3462 Thanks for sharing. I agree.
@@derosecutus3462
Wow, congratulations, mate!
So did you find the real martial system useful / enjoyable even after your experience in MMA fights? : )
Its cool, is it not? Right?
That is the real deal most people dont know about.
Keep on doing your training and use Taiji as it was meant to be used!
@@Steel9k oh yeah absolutely. Western fighting tends to have a japanese approach to things. Switching to chinese tactics was revolutionary; everything seemed inverted at first but now I'd never go back. I never considered myself a strong boxer before tai chi but I randomly found myself in a situation where someone was trying to hit me with combinations and I was amazed how easy, thoughtless even it had become to parry those strikes as I was stepping backwards. There was no fight, and they didn't touch me.
Chadi be like, “This ain’t clickbait, this ain’t an April Fool’s joke” awesome video bro thank you yet again brother 🙏
Thank you 🙇🏻♂️
I’m not a judoka, but I’ve been watching your videos for a while and enjoy your content. Your dedication and respect of martial arts is praiseworthy, you’ve earned yourself a subscriber! :D
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@@Chadi where would you find a good taiji instructor in America that could teach you push hands and know what they're talking about? I imagine that's going to be a hard thing to find on, if you got any info shout out to a dude and let me know. Thanks Chadi all the best.
I was told that Taijiquan push-hands training develops sensitivity for Chin Na submission grappling. The complete art is Taiji Chin Na. To apply joint locks & takedowns first structure must be destabilized and broken (Kuzushi) and that's where Taiji push hands training comes in to play. It's kuzushi training. The training in locks y takedowns progresses in QinNa / ChinNa training after Taiji push-hands (kuzushi) sensativity is developed.
I believe it's true
bingo. those z locks are incapacitating
As a former Wushu athlete I use some of these techniques during hand fighting in BJJ and they work. My rudimentary understanding and skill use the most basic of Tai Chi and a few other Chinese martial arts techniques but when practiced and not telegraphed they work. Chinese martial arts have much to offer but it’s very difficult and frustrating sometimes sifting through a lot of the nonsense. Wonderful and insightful videos as always. Thank you!🤙🏿🤙🏿🤙🏿🤙🏿🤙🏿🤙🏿🤙🏿
Awesome
Push hands is for sensitivity distance managing and openings, it isn't a fight.
I think we collectively have a bias when it comes to looking at the training of traditional martial arts, wherein we disregard any training methods that we havent seen before and cant immediately understand the utility of.
Like is push hands drilling really any stranger looking than when wrestlers drill pummeling? For someone unfamiliar with grappling, pummeling drills probably look silly and absurd
Now of course that bias doesnt come from nowhere. The lack of quality control in traditional martial arts has lead to a whole lot of bullshit being passed off as kung fu or karate or akido. And so it leads to a situation where tons of otherwise avid martial artists think there's no such thing as legit karate etc which is obviously untrue
I think this channel does a great job of showing how even with styles that have lost most of their legitimate combat roots, you can still dig and see the real legit techniques buried inside them
Good point
Thanks for sharing info about my second passion after Judo. I'm happy to see that the first solo form is a Wu style form. I learnt It from Wu Kwong Yu. You also presented Hawkins Cheung's footage, who was also a Wing Chun Master, and Wing Chun Is my third passion. Tui Shou (pushing hands) is just the beginning of many stages of training in Tai Chi Chuan. I have seen and faced formidable opponents from Tai Chi Chuan in no-holds-barred Fighting and in kickboxing. Thanks again dear Chadi. Best Regards from Mexico 😊🌹
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Good video. My (limited) understanding of Push Hands is that it’s a kuzushi drill. The goal is (with proper form, relaxation, etc) to be able to “uproot” or destabilize the other person. It’s not “the technique” itself but the preparation of the technique.
Wow, that was quick, I ask and you deliver. I practiced what you called "sticky hands" form of Push Hands and was surprised at how much my Judo came into play. The idea is only to use a few ounces of force (which was hard in the beginning) and be moving. It became all about balance and moving your partner into a weak spot. I really learned what it meant when I pushed with a much smaller woman who studied with a well-known teacher, and she kept me so tied up I couldn't move. It's not for self-defense, but that's not why I do MAs, it's about balance and movement. Living in the Midwest, having good balance in the icy winters is a "self-defense" that I need. I would suggest it is good practice for any Martial Artist who wants to learn control. And it is a lot of fun, once you get used to not using power.
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When it starts with " this is not april's fool" you know it will be good hahaha
Chadi, I hold a Dan rank in Jujitsu, as well as ranks in BJJ, and Aikido. I am also a certified Qigong instructor with training in many different forms. I recently completed the Yang Taj Short form and since then I practice daily and when I tell you just doing the form everyday has been rejuvenating but in addition I understand much better the principles of rooting, and moving from the center that I can apply to my other martial arts training. I have no formal judo training but obvious in BJJ and Jujitsu there is an overlap of technique but I very much want to explore the relation between the arts and the application of technique. A thorough understanding of Tai Chi imo enhances other martial arts technical knowledge... great video.
chadi, you're the best. thanks for sharing the true potential of this oft-ridiculed and undervalued style.
please keep this amazing stuff coming!
As a life long Chinese Martial Artist, thank you for making this video! This arts all have combative origins, but like you mention with arts like kyudo/kendo/etc they have become more budo like in nature as paths to self development. But they are rich in history and can be quite complex. Appreciate you man!
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Excellent information, having practised t'ai chi and aikido, after some karate and judo as a child, I sometimes find the attitudes toward those disciplines on YT, usually from a MMA perspective, to be naive and misinformed at best.
There is much more to learn by being more open - thank you
Great video. I didn’t expect much since most people outside of Taijiquan either don’t know anything about it or immediately treat it as a punchline.
Taijiquan is indeed a mostly form of stand up grappling with pushes and body strikes. That is what all that hand waving in the forms are for really.
Where it differs from Judo/wrestling/shuaijiao etc. is that it is not a technique based art but one focused on body mechanics, balance control and power manipulation. As a consequence a lot of the takedowns look more crude but when you have the chance to grapple with a skilled practitioner, the sense of helplessness and inability to properly balance and execute techniques is truly awesome; something that has to be experienced to be believed.
Hope u might continue to look into this art, people like Chen Zhonghua, Chen Ziqiang, Jan Lucanus and Tian Long Tai Chi are worth looking into. Subscribed!
i know a bjj black belt who practices tai chi religiously. he says its not a complete martial art but neither is bjj lol
So valid.you hotta borrow from others
It has NO ground work. Other than that its pretty complete depending on how you train it.
Interesting, cause my BJJ instructor also practices Taichi and I asked him about it. He says that training it has improved his handfighting/hand sensitivity. The push hands drills really help develop the sensitivity during grappling.
@@cpa314 their is this guy on instagram.he mixed wingchun traps,lapsao etc with Bjj grappling.i forgot his name but the shit is soooo fucking beautiful no wasted ,big movements.if someone onows feel free to chime in
Thank you for bringing the style I love to your audience.
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Sources?
0:00 "Tai Chi Chuan in 1935"
1:02 "FINALS Josh Waitzkin vs. "The Buffalo" - 2004 Tai Chi World Cup - Moving Step Push Hands"
2:23 "Hawkins Cheung close quarter combat style tai chi"
4:39 "Gold Match - Greco Roman Wrestling 66 kg - O. NOROOZI (IRI) vs D. STEFANEK (SRB) - Tashkent 2014"
5:04 "Real Tai Chi Pushing Hands Competition"
I had an old Tai chi practitioner throw me across a room. It was a lot like Aikido.I respect this Tai Chi man.
Thanks kindly for your observations and putting this all together
thank you for being impartial...as a Tai-Chi/BJJ/MMA practioner. I personally know and feel that Tai-Chi should not be overlooked. But I keep it to myself in my other classes besides Tai-Chi and in my classes, I do once in awhile surprise people with my Tai-Chi which I try to conceal and not reveal to avoid the "stares" and "smirks"
but thank you for giving it a fair shake..
Push hands could possibly be an exercise for pummeling. I’ve seen something a bit similar in Greco Roman.
Could be something else, but that’s what it looks like to me.
Of course
I've thought that push hands was practised so one could learn to feel when to apply which techniques from the forms.
I think I would just stick to Japanese Jujutsu for street defence, but I would add this style of, push hand grappling in a bjj competition. It would really help for takedowns and getting dominant positions.
Yeah, it would be much MUCH easier to find a competent Judo/Jujitsu instructor than a "real" Tai Chi instructor.
@@varanid9 Agreed
My BJJ instructor also trains Taichi, and yes the hand fighting and hand sensitivity he gains from his Taichi push hands training does help him a lot with his grappling game
What kind of Japanese jujutsu?
Great work as always.
With regards to the fixed step, it’s about learning how to respond to force applied without using brute strength. Obviously in combat it would end when you shift someone’s weight. You would be looking at either a takedown or a striking opportunity
Hey thanks for the balanced view here. Shows a great deal of maturity.
As someone who is studying tai chi chuan thank you for a video of this caliber
Thank you so much, Chadi! This was a great video. A few things:
If you incorporate strikes or slaps into Tuishou/Pushing hands, it's no longer Tuishou. It's Dashou (striking hands.) Dashou is interesting because the goal is still to push someone out of bounds or land a takedown, but you can (depending on the ruleset,) slap, strike, punch or even kick. It can get very close to modern Sanshou. Also, the fixed step is. . . a little bizarre. It is useful for learning to keep your balance and take your opponent's balance, almost like a kuzushi drill. But if you can gain very solid "pushing" mechanics, then that has direct transfer (in my experience) to learning to strike more effectively. A push is a strike without impact. And neutralizing pushes to keep your balance can make you better at blocking strikes. So freestep pushing hands is closer to pure grappling, fixed step is can help bridge the gap between grappling and striking, then you can get into Dashou/Sanshou and then it really is striking and grappling. I hope that helps you understand that fascinating and misunderstood art a little better.
(Also, the weapons practice isn't necessarily only kata, either.)
Tai chi is basically Chinese Wrestling, i love the golf swing takedown that Ramsey Dewey taught a few years ago. That man knows more about chinese martial arts than most "masters" who got beat up
Wrestling is just one part of Taiji. There is much more to Taiji. Joint lock, striking, weapons. Lots of stuff going on there
@@lgv3051 I practised Yang style Tai Chi forms for years (as it helped with managing my chrinic asthma) I did almost no push hands though, just forms.
I later had a chance to go Fiore dagger class and the movement felt bizarrely familiar: like movements from Tai Chi forms, just faster.
This is a great video! As someone who got a bronze metal at the 2001 Tiger Balm in stationary push hands, I 100% agree with your assessment of that competition format... but to be fair everyone there wanted to do moving step push hands instead, and we informally went at it and did some moving step when the judges left on their 3 hour lunch break. The Pa Kua guys won.
Great video!
I love the Fluid motions
Chen Ziqiang's Tui Shou material is worth looking at
Great teacher. We did a weekend seminar with him before covid. Chen ZhongHua is really good too. And if you want to see somebody who really knows how work it, look up Su DongChen.
By Chen Ziqiang, you're referring to this guy? th-cam.com/video/LBOlQg0aMDU/w-d-xo.html
The push hand that you mentioned that you didn’t understand is like a training exercise. It’s primary purpose is to uproot the person by moving their feet. If they move their feet they lose. Having study southern mantis Kung fu, which has elements of tai chi as a brother and sister art, these arts have their version of joint locks and throws, but with the emphasis on using a strike to create kazushi. The strike is to unbalance and then if an opportunity presents it’s self, they will take the throw, trip or joint lock, with the emphasis of not going to the ground. I study judo now, so I could understand how it would look to a judoka. I think that the flowing of tai chi could complement judo, as a great deal of the art is about disturbing a person’s shape, or as a grappler would say, breaking their posture. I hope this helps, I love your channel and the break down of different arts. Great work!
THIS WAS GREAT!! THANKS!!!
IF YOU CAN DO MORE AND OTHER KUNG FU THAT WOULD BE AWESOME. I LOVE AND APPRECIATE YOUR VIDEOS!!!!
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Two types of push hands. Fixed step and moving step.
First learnt is fixed step push hands. It works on improving grounding. The aim is to move the opponent off their footing.
Second is moving step push hands and is done inside a circle marked out on the ground. The aim is to throw or trip the opponent to the ground or push them out of the circle.
No grabbing and manipulating legs with hands.
No grabbing and manipulating the neck or head with the hands.
Re: the push hands thing. I’m a BJJ black, judo brown belt and one of the two times I ever ended up in a non playful physical confrontation was when I was getting in between a drugged up aggressive guy and a much weaker person the aggro for some reason had set his aim on while on a bus. The position we ended up in was kinda similar to the push hands clip around 6:10. By just maintaining inside ties it was easy to control him and keep him at bay. The Kung fu practitioners in the clip sure look very unathletic but I can see a point to the exercise. Kinda like a limited sumo match where you lose just by getting off balanced. Can probably be fun and useful drill but leaving out footwork is a bit weird.
Glad you're safe
Great video. I don’t practice tai chi but i respect it a lot and enjoy playing around with “fixed-step push hands” with friends. Its an easy and injury-free way to pass the time in pretty much any situation with any person, no matter their experience.
I would love to have you talk about Systema, preferably after having tried a class or seminar with an experienced instructor!
Makeikomis! Brings back memories... Happy Easter!
...and where do you dig up those videos? Gotta become a patreon.
Alright, I’ll get my popcorn to watch this now hahah
I had a decade of judo as well as wrestling, tai chi of all styles is loaded with throws and joint locks and chokes.
Thank you for showing this.looks so rare.the new competition has lost all this
That first sparring video you showed is Josh Waitzkin from the book and movie Searching for Bobby Fischer. He talks about that competition in his book the Art of Learning. He now does BJJ with one of the Gracie family. There is also video from that same tournament of them doing the standing sticky hand competition which is better than the stuff you showed. Seems it's more a balance and concentration thing to learn how to redirect an opponents energy, which could then help when engaged. I always tell my kids in judo to feel what the opponent is giving you, and that exercise could facilitate that.
Not with a Gracie, he trains with Marcelo Garcia a bjj legend
@@gonfreecss7215 Oh, okay. It had been years since I looked into him. I must have read it wrong at the time. Thanks for the follow up. I've always like the guy, his attitude and perspective. I just wish we could have seen how far up the chess ladder he was capable of.
Now this was very very interesting
Ramsey Dewey said that he grapled with old tai chi guy an he said he was throwing them puting them in joint locks and other stuff so we can say if you know what does forms mean it can be effective
Interesting brother, but can you fix your grammar a bit to clarify what you mean here? Thank you.
@@emilianosintarias7337 He is referring to this video. Starts at 9:30
th-cam.com/video/G4_L7cK1YZ8/w-d-xo.html
around 5:40 that is stationary push hands. It test your ability to be stable (stand) under the pressure of being pushed. Call it stage 2 fighting (a step after one or two step sparring)
Pushing hands are to develop qualities: listening, understanding, neutralising, stick, follow (energy). That it is, no more. Learning application of the techniques and sparring (sanda) are next steps after.
now I know what I want and don’t want, thanks 😊
From what I have read and noted although tai chi chuan also involves striking techniques it is basically for unbalancing or throwing an opponent. The techniques involve sensitivity and use of chi. The movements and execution of force are done with less effort as possible.
Tai chi chuan's advance forms involve chin na (translated roughly as grappling).
So just started bjj. I use my sticky
Hands from wing chun and basics of sumo and everyone’s reaction after rolling with me is I was in Judo. But looking at this looks more like I’m doing freestyle tai chi because my movements are so similar to this I might just watch tai chi videos now lol.
I was taught push hands by one of my friends. I started out skeptical but I noticed that the skills (at least taught his way) was essentially pummeling, "muchimi" (I think that is the Karate term for "sticky hands"), posture training, foot work, and body positioning. The odd circle exercise was not taught as a complete system but 1 exercise that helped with body structure and balance: who could be put in a compromised body structure first. Losing "root" with the ground and breaking posture are fundamentals in general in grappling. The end result is somewhat like the "Bruce Lee contemporary" portion of the video where 2 people go at it and take the other person down.
The skills covered in push hands from competent practitioners is noticeable in many martial arts, especially in Self Defence applications. Applying push hand philosophy to ceremonially practiced SD (like Karate or TKD where they line up and punch and the other person attacks) livens up the training and exposes stuff that is unseen. Push hands is a gem!
Agreed
In Goju Ryu the drill of sticky hands is called Kakie.
Yes. Muchimi is akin "sticking" to one another. "Sticking to hands" is what I wanted and did not properly convey.
I'm glad more people with a platform like this is starting to say what I've been saying for a long time now in regards to things like this and also grappling in arts karate and kung fu the issue is that it was so poorly taught for a long time atleast here in the United States it was you can find legit schools of any martial art and you can take something away from any of them that can be used effectively in particular situations it just takes an open mind and a willingness to learn and understand
awesome analysis, what is the name of that old taichi push hand footage pls ? it looks very legit light sparring which can be used to wrestle !!!
Being able to push away someone who trying to do the same to you is a very useful skill if you want to buy a moment or two to run away, pushing should be part of any self defense arsenal. Not as final as a throw but if you can’t get someone to fall or stumble backwards that can be a tremendous help.
Good review. I am a jiujitsuka (not BJJ), but have practiced the martial form of taiji in the past. I learned a lot from this practice. Taiji is very much about balance and redirecting the opponent by trying to feel the power they use in striking or pushing. This is why you aim for contact with the opponent rather than hard blocks and such. If you push me, then with some practice it is easy to feel the direction you are pushing, and hence I can step out of your way and add some own force to “help” you proceed in that direction, and possibly trip you or redirect your force to throw you. So yes, martial taiji is a lot about grappling and not that different Japanese arts like aikido or Jiujitsu. There are techniques in martial taiji to break joints and stuff, but it is more of a defensive style than offensive in my experience. We use the same kind of “sensing” the movement in my style of Jiujitsu (Swedish Durewall Jiujitsu) and it is highly effective as an internalised self defence mechanism to move out of the way of the force and to redirect the force to perform techniques where you control your opponent.
The reason why pushing hand seems not to be a real struggle is that both opponents are skilled in this matter, and don’t give away their motives. It is very hard to sense the direction of the force when meeting a skilled taiji practitioner.
Push hands is a basic training practice to develop sensitivity and the application of various movements and principles embedded in the Tai Chi form. There is a fixed push hands and a moving push hands, and then there's a more free sparring that is not push hands but just the more advanced testing of skills in free fighting. Good Tai Chi combines very complex and subtle sensitivity with sophisticated body mechanics. It can include take-downs, throws and grappling along with kicks, strikes (punch and open hand), and learning to absorb an attack without being seriously hurt. It should not look like a crude wrestling. That suggests a lower level of fighting skill.
There is no clear body structure maybe because taiji like other internal arts is not based on structures or techniques. Taiji is based on principles of movement (peng,lu,ji,an,tsai,jou,lieh and kao). Push hands is the way to understand and study those principles with another person. The form is there to teach us the principles individually and comes before push hands (tuishou) practice. Then later comes taiji shuaijiao, taiji chin na (joint locking) and taiji sanshou which is practical application in combat/sparring. The higher goal here is to reach fighting improvisation. This is real taiji, an amazing and extremely effective martial art, for those who understand it and can make it work (not many unfortunately). Taiji deserves to be respected for what it is. Thank you for your video and for the respect shown here, as usual. Congratulations 👍
I've been looking into this for a while funny enough. I've found that if you examine shuai jiao techniques (I use a book called "Chinese fast wrestling for fighting, the art of san shou kuai jiao") you can find the movements of tai chi. Also the 24 and 48 form taichi book from the same publisher YMAA (Yang's martial arts association) contains applications of the moves. I like to double check the applications by seeing if there is a similar move in shuai/kuai jiao. I also test it on my friends in free grappling of course.
I'll look more into it
With regards to pushing hands in any format, I was taught that it starts with contact and ends when contact is lost because otherwise striking is involved. We see this with mma. High level mixed martial artists will exit the clinch by either striking or retreating out of striking range.
The stationary stuff at 5 mins is fixed step push hands. Ideal for non-fighters and beginners as not really being thrown so little chance of being hurt It develops some basic skills but then in competition most people don't have the skill level to make it look/work well. I like fixed step for practice but when you have a partner who is good you need to do moving step. So in simple terms. fixed step, you move your feet and you lose, moving step you have to get the person down or out of area,
Look into the "Practical Method" approach by Chen Zhonghua.
Thank you Chadi. I appreciate it. Few people today have a clue how to practice Tai Chi for combat. The Yang style is the most commonly known style around the world. At it's inception this art was not passed down to the Imperial Court in it's entirety, which is part of the misconception. It is certainly a fighting art. Thank you for this investigation.
Laoshr #60
Ching Yi Kung Fu Association
Εxcellent video!!!!
Yes, i can see a bit of greco too. Of course greco is more has a pragmatic approach. Yes, the understanding of using the clinch (for utilising dirty boxing close quarters in particular ) is the strength of greco over freestyle. I seen some movement tai chi that are totally usable in mma also Bagua has some good moves for mma.
check out this chen ziqiang guy , his the main coach of taiji village chenjiaogou now. hes push hand extermely good
Wu style tai chi is a style that uses a lot of throws and grappling compare to the other styles of tai chi.
Another art not related to tai chi is dragon style bagua which emphasize alot on throws and grappling.
I learned some Yang Taiji and it was ALL grappling. Of course you could strike but the focus was always on dissolving the center and smashing your opponent on the ground.
I once did some basic analysis of the forms between Chen, Yang, and Wu. If I remove the repetitions (based on the names) and account of symmetry, Chen has about ~95 sequences. Meanwhile Yang and Wu's 108 form has about ~39 sequences.
A big contribution to this seems to be that Chen's Er Lu form never gotten passed down to other styles. Er Lu focuses more on offensive striking/impact, non-attachment, and hardness in relation to opponents’ force and movement, jumping, lunging and more athletic movements. And this probably sounds nothing like the "Tai Chi" most people know about which is only "Soft".
I suspect this is a big reason why striking is uncommon among a lot of Tai Chi we see today. If we do see striking, they tend to be pretty lousy and very limited. It seems like there is a massive aspect to Taijiquan that got lost along the way, and that aspect included hardness - the other side of the coin.
Yi Lu (the first form in Chen Style) has a higher focus on yielding, attaching, manipulation, breaking structure, and trapping methods. And this probably sounds a lot closer towards the Tai Chi that you're all familiar with. So, if forms were analogous to an encyclopedia, by this metric, Chen seems to have a signifcantly larger curriculum.
Push hands towards end is sensitivity exercise.
It would be interesting to see some history of Chinese martial arts and their use in practice. It's hard to find good and reliable information because of how much saturation there is from complete BS.
it is hard because the big organizations are not interested to provide the right info, since they survive selling certificates.
Push hands by the way was also in aikido. For example.
Check out Bruce Frantzis. He is reliable. Black belt in Goju Ryu Karate, black belt in Akido from Mohirei Ueshiba himself and then some 50 years of training with Chinese masters. He is expert in Bagua, Xing I, Tai Chi and Taoist meditation. Many clips on TH-cam.
Dio Brando, Ben Judkins of Kung Fu Tea and chinesemartialstudies.com has written articles with good reliable information on the history of Chinese martial arts.
One of the best guys “Tuishou” Chen. There is a vid of him playing with Marcelo Garcia. Watch it. Very entertaining. He pulls off the famous “push” several times. Yet Chen has a weakness to leg reaping - The difference between Tai Chi’s rule set and Shuai Jiao’s rule set. The weird one near the end is “fixed step” - it’s all about center of gravity, and it’s for beginners only. There are 3 or 4 videos between Novell Bell and Benjamin Wu. Ben is MUCH smaller and lighter and certainly weaker, yet without relying on footwork he is able to counter 95% of it. For what it is, it’s really impressive.
For everyone saying wtf is Push hands: it is simply a training exercise to develop sensitivity, yielding, grounding, etc. A training tool to develop skills. Nothing more
Go feel what a good Taiji Practitioner is doing. May not be applicable the way people think, but there is value in their mechanics.
Those bell bottoms, though... At least they still look good flying through the air, like a hakama.
I had a friend that was trying to Re Functionalise it, yang style. He found if you shorten the moves amd be more direct it was like bagua
Its same with karate, real old karate doesn't have anything to do with jumping and reverse punching from 2 meters, it was original mma, grappling with striking, thanks for the video!
The static push hands - the one who moves he's feet lost it's training not to loose the root
Referring to 6 minutes in.
The push hands rules of moving your opponent from his starting point is limited but if you lose your balance in a fight, and a tai chi fighter forces you to use your turn to take a step and catch your balance? Then they can deliver a fah jing punch or any move they want to finish you. Tai Chi as combat takes a long time to learn because you are expected to learn 10x more than any other style. Your own balance needs to convert to understanding your opponent’s balance and then physics plays a huge rule how to manipulate energy transference. So yes many get beat because 2 years of taichi usually amounts to nothing.
Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming is a prominent teacher of Taiji on the East Coast of the USA with publications & videos on the joint locking aspect of the art. Wilson Pitt in NYC is prominent in teaching Taiji and Boxing.
Tai chi being more of a wrestling style makes most of its move sets make more sense now. Tai chi emphasizes the importance of balance above all. And balance is super important in wrestling as well. China especially after the cultural revolution are ashamed of their ancient wrestling roots when they shouldnt be. Wrestling was important in many feudal battles over the centuries.
Fighting isnt all about striking.
Imo this type of training delevops the sensitivity and timing , ie the chi/ki of someone like Mifune or Tohei sensei that transcends techniques the key to Kuzushi while maintaining the principles of Ju are here demonstrated..
thank you for this. I have an interest in tai chi because injuries' have made it difficult to keep wrestling. Chen style is the oldest and has the most obvious martial applications. it seams that the place tai chi is in is if judo or karate only practiced kata for a century. most people who practice know their are applications but have not trained to apply them.
Best of luck
Good video and fair coverage of this practice! I have attended some Tai Chi seminars and IMO it can be good exercise with some good Taisabaki applications. I definitely would not view it as a fighting though as it is too far removed from its Kung Fu roots. Thank you!
Thank you Diane
Sport push hands is just poor grappling, it misses the point of push hands which is to teach certain concepts of taichichuan. Unfortunately taichi itself in the main has no combat value, those than can fight are a rarity
Tai chi has grappling in it. Sport push hands doesn't miss anything. It shows the concepts of tai chi when two people are using force against each other while at the same time trying to neutralize it.
"Sport push hands is just poor grappling" 100%
Thx for taking this art seriously, rather than just laughing like those idiots. There is a misconception on taichiquan that it is a wrestling art, but in fact it is not. Most traditional Chinese martial art is the mixing of both striking and wrestling, and weight more on strike. Taichi does have quite a lot of takedowns compared to other arts. But the main purpose of pushing hands is to control your opponent's weight and deliver mostly strikes or then maybe takedowns. It's more like clinching in Thai boxing but with a long distance. After all, it is named as quan, which means fist, but not wrestling.
Chadi have you ever tried to watch karate kata from a grapplers perspective? Since karate itself borrows from chinese martial arts
I think the "stepping" format is more practical, and cultural boundaries prevent it from becoming greco-roman in appearance. The "standing" structure has a glaring gap right now for practicality: a judge rules whether you stepped/pushed gracefully and can negate/approve moves which you feel are fine. When competitors in standing form do not maintain contact and grace, you see dynamic hand fighting, then the judges rule it out on a random stylistic basis
Good point
The "push hands competition" looks like a silly kumi kata competition.
Kind of
the shifting of weight is outstanding another confirmation from univers
The only problem I saw with the push hands turning into judo throws, is all the throws were done by one of the combatants. It was more a demo than true randori.
Brush knee and push in a hip throw in taijiquans...and repulse monkey is uchi gari n snake creeps down is literally a fireman carry. Judo doesnt own these throwibg types it is common in all grappling arts.
The footwork n tai chi is good 4 grappling
Without being a regular practitioner of martial disciplines, I have spent years observing various teachers and students from different parts of the world but paying special attention to those from Asia while my admiration grew as I learned a little more about those cultures. . That is why I observe those disciplines and teachers with great respect, to the point of not daring to use the word ridicule or even make any mention of comments from people who do not know the art. I completely abandon Western arrogance. When I encounter something that comes from another culture that I don't understand, I think that I am not being able to see something important.
Taichi is very popular among Chinese wrestlers for the grapping similarity, and since the practitioners of latter oness actually do sparring, they do Taichi way better than pure Taichi practitioners.
push hands isnt competition in the traditional sense. the idea is to unify the yin and yang between two people and keep the circle going for as long as possible. both people are winning for as long as the flow continues. when your partner loses balance they've technically lost but if both fighters are no longer in the act of flowing, learning, both have lost.
In taichi chuen history/lore there was a divergence of intent and practice. Yang Lu Chan refused to teach the Qing the art's true essence. Hence Yang Chen Fu push hands v Yang Ban Hou striking hands. Apparently the chickens have come home to roost as the striking art has been all but forgotten in favor of pushing. I mean, it's in the name Tai Chi Chuen: Supreme Ultimate FIST.
You are totally right on the push hands competition, it almost looks like they have to hold the line toe to toe and end up over extending to get the push. The outdated tai chi footage was a little silly in spots but the general principles were there for feeling the takedown or throws. It's like sticky arms and body rather than just sticky hands. Very useful, tons of application. You are learning what the push pull/ rise fall pressure feels like and from there you can hit both throws and locks.