Are Bretonnian Men-At-Arms BROKEN?! | Bretonnia | Warhammer The Old World
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Not sure Levies can benefit from the BSB?
They cannot benefit from "Hold Your Ground" but i believe they can still gain the combat result? So, at least in this case no they cannot reroll the check.
Missed this! Thank you for letting me know :)
Right, no BSB or Inspiring Presence; however they can also use the leadership value of any knight unit within 6" if they are not fleeing
Yooo! he need to it
Ooh but the Yeoman Guard version from the exiles list do get the Veterans special rule, so re-rolls for pretty much everything apart from break tests.
Incoming: "So I took 300+ Men-at-arms to a tournament" :P
Would watch 10/10
This!
I really want to see someone spam 5 men Halb detachments
Classic Mordian. Wish this had happened lol
As a long time Empire player, Bretonians deserve all the love in the Old World after all the time that GW ignored them for so long. I love seeing the "polearm" rule- Someone at GW finally looked at how historical weapons were actually use. If only Empire Halberdiers could use the same rule... and if Greatswords were heavy infantry too!
I think I'd change the Halberd weapon profile into a generic Heavy Weapon, then turn all Halberd units into Polearm units that can choose between Spears or Heavy Weapon profile
Dear Empire, from an Old Bretonnian Player: Suck it.
But in more seriousness, great guide. Love to see the foot lads get some love.
Alternatively, Dear Empire, I fart in your general direction 😆
Took 29 of them into a tournament. They held a unit of dragon ogres, and a giant for 2 turns. 2nd game they defeated tomb guard, 3rd game they held grail knights all game
I was pretty surprised when I encountered them at first, and they're certainly decent, but I think you overlooked something important:
1) You don't need to challenge to direct attacks.
2) The "first charge" attacker can easily allocate attacks to kill the Grail Monk and Sergeant.
3) Attacker doesn't need to heavily overallocate, but you don't need to add too many because steeds can provide a decent followup (usually hitting on 3s)
I think they're going to be stronger without the extra point sinks, maybe using a flee reaction to a "first charge"
Now this is the video i've been waiting on, my favourite unit in warhammer! Keep up the good work Mordian!
Thanks for the content, please keep it coming.
This makes me glad I took the Brettonia box for my first ever Warhammer product I’ve bought. I’m looking forward to learning some of this math and combos in my local escalation league coming up.
Awesome video, painting up some empire troops right now.
I wouldn't put too much faith in the Grail Monk providing Stubborn, a smart attacker would probably allocate his attacks directly into the Grail Monk
yeah, he's a noob trap
Love this analysis. I wish more people would go into this sort of depth on what units actually do beyond the cursory glance to find the value. A+!
7x7!... Dusts off stone throwers.
Yeah great. with only one or to guaranteed S5 hits and all others are just S3 on a 4+ to hit roll. Scary...
@bremer1701 They're str 4 ap1 with a single model suffering str8 ap3.
The number of auto hits is 1 to 4. Total hits up to 12.
If a hit of the scatter, you're looking at 8 hits on average. Wounding on 3+s, (one on 2+) -1 to the save.
A big thing that's being overlooked here is that characters and unit champions can be singled out in combat outside of a challenge. So your Leadership 6/7 and Stubborn are basically being held up by 4 Toughness 3 5+ save wounds that can be singled out assuming just a full command and Sgt at Arms.
MaA have warband so even without the characters they will likely be ld7+ anyway, not to mention that having a knight nearby let's you use their ld instead. And having a knight nearby in a bretonnian army is insanely easy. Realistically only the stubborn rule is at risk
it just 2 wounds, 2 characters
@@norabder8816 Oh yeah there's ways to make them surprisingly resilient. But it's not nearly as insurmountable as he's making out.
@@pinch1loaf I was assuming the unit has a Sgt at Arms attached as per the example in the video.
Love peasant men at arms. Worse than empire troops but something about the grime and inbreeding lore sells them to me.
Except they aren’t worse than empire troops. Thats the point of this video…
I'm speaking lorewise, did you read the rest of my comment? there is a stark difference in the QoL between the Empire and Bretonnia. maybe next time we will think before we speak.
Having two champions is also huge, if one gets killed in a challenge, you still have another!
Any model in base to base with a character can direct their attacks against that character. The Grail Monk is pretty vulnerable to just being hacked down by regular attacks.
May be an over investment, but running a huge mob of men at arms with a paladin BSB with the banner that lets you ignore modifiers to your leadership is gonna be wild. Combine that with a sergeant at arms for LD 10, and a damsel for lady's wrath, and suddenly you're dealing with a massive threat. Imagine a brick of 60 men at arms throwing out 24 s4 ap1 spear attacks, or 12 s5 ap2 halberd attacks? It's actually nuts.
I have been jealous of men-at-arms compared to my skelli-boys basically since 20 years ago. Sure they've got "fear" and can ressurect models. But simply getting more peasents since they are cheaper and now even having these rules you mentioned makes them so much better :(
You still have to remember that these guys break. The amount of times my treeman has fled and been destroyed is countless. Men at arms are likely to lose combats a lot and will be rundown at some point. Not to mention that if you kill that grail monk they don't get to benefit from the stubborn. Good efficient unit for sure but they wont win battles by themselves and skeletons are always a much more reliable tarpit than these guys
Admittedly you can just shoot them and cause a Panic check. Shieldwall and the stubborn doesn’t help them then.
Good vid and I like the unit, but it does have weaknesses;
1) Enemy can just allocate attacks into the Grail Monk, even average stats will likely kill him.
2) No BSB for peasant chumps sadly
Still love MaA though, glad they came in the release box.
Bretonnian Men at Arms are the English Billmen missing from the earlier Bretonnian lists. Fun fact, medieval billmen were historically paid twice as much as longbowmen.
their equipment was twice as expensive too.
The WH lore always annoyed me that they’re trash tier WS2, LD5. These blokes would have been soldiers not pressed serfs. If you send all your farmers to get shanked by the baddies who’s going to grow and harvest your crops?
@@another4868 but that’s the lore for breotnnia Bretonnia in general makes no real life sense
@@another4868 men at arms in warhammer are fjyrd in real life. Fjyrd were locals drafted for campaign in 7-9th century.
and yes, armies often fell apart /campaigns stopped, because fyrdmen left to harvest crops.
@@another4868 same goes for longbow archers. You can't pull a longbow for a battle at average strength. However the key thing is, this is Bretonnia, not England at Crecy. Life sucks for the peasants.
I totally agree MaA are nuts for the cost, so I think it's telling that Bret players barely touch them
Right now, the highest winrate units in the brettonian list is KotR and M@A... two mainstay core units.
It feels like nearly everything in the army book is amazing.
No. People will ignore Core as much as possible as always. So not a problem. Glad they are good though.
Most players max out Characters, Special and Rare and reluctantly take some scared Core that is pushed intoa corner.. So not a problem.
Also wish Core was atleast 33-40%.. Atleast.
Core should be higher, characters should be lower
Blessed triptych should be treated as a banner, staying after the grail monk is dead - else it's probably not worth the points, since the monk is so easily killed upon attacked.
25 pts should be surely be of use.
Opinion on Yeomen guard? The special version for the Border Prince Exiles list?
You could stick a damsel in there and give them magical resistance and magical attacks
These are all valid points, but also very situational.
A block of peasants played hell dealing with a full squad of War Dancers led by a Shadowdancer. The wood Elves went first, the shadow dancer debuffed the men at arms with a -1 WS & Init ability. The War Dancers used the ability of -1 to hit. Ultimately they needed 6's to hit and 4's to wound.
After initial attacks and kills only the grail monk and sometimes a few supporting attacks swung back. And missed or failed to wound.
He opted for spears hoping to get some attacks in.
After two more rounds the men at arms was gone and a couple of elves lost.
I played Brettonians and a couple of other armies, but when I see a big block of men at arms - I ignore it and out maneuver it. Then I focus on other targets until I get enough to flank and / or rear charge the men at arms.
Using the polearms as halberds does stop you from using shieldwall in that combat. And wood elves will pick out your unit champions before combat. But yeah, crazy efficient hoardy cheap troops, probably a good 2 points per model underpriced, which is crazy considering you'll probably be running these in squads of 30 to 50. I absolutely overlooked these guys. A brett player who leans into Men-At-Arms looking to grind out battles of attrition is definitely more intimidating to my current VC and TK lists than than one who goes heavy on knights of the realm.
¨there is no point to run them 30 to 50
@jiridrapal7512 lots of reasons to. Means you won't lose the +3 rank bonus, wider ranks so more attacks, and auto-break the enemy due to high unit strength when your knights come to help
@@stonem0013 40 will break as easy as 10 in many cases.
There's some weird arguments in this video.
The first is trying to establish Men-At-Arms as the best infantry... by comparing them to goblins and state troops. That's like claiming your Ford Escort is the best car in the world, by claiming it is safer than a Pinto and more reliable than a Lada.
Another strange argument was comparing damage output between Men-At-Arms using halberds, to Empire spearmen, and noting the odds of hitting and wounding even out... but ignoring that Spearmen get a whole second rank of attacks.
It was also odd to argue the limited mobility of a Men-At-Arms brick isn't an issue because opponents might charge it by mistake. That argument is just wrong. Good units don't need the enemy to make basic mistakes to be valuable. And thing is, the immobility doesn't make Men-At-Arms bad. Having a unit the enemy wants to avoid is a really valuable asset, allowing you to control where and when combat takes place. There is a good reason for why Men-At-Arms are good despite their immobility, which makes it very strange this video instead made a bad argument.
The video also claimed Grail Monks would be safe from a round of combat, as the Yeoman would take the first challenge. But you don't need to Challenge to attack a character. Any Character not in a challenge can have attacks directed at them by any enemy they are in base to base with. So in the first turn the Yeoman takes the challenge, while the Grail Monk would be targeted by any of the models it is in base to base with, where it would be very unlikely to survive.
The unit prices given here are crazy. Maybe something fun for a knock around game, but if you're trying to win against people who are also trying to win, then sinking up to 300 points in to a tarpit unit is a huge mistake. You want your tarpits to be very cheap. The value in Me-At-Arms is you can put a viable tarpit unit in the field for around 150 points - 5*5 with full command and Stubborn.
Don't get me wrong, Men-At-Arms are a good unit. They're a million miles from the best infantry unit, but this is the internet and hyperbole is just part of the deal. But even in the context of internet hyperbole, there's no excuse for straight up bad arguments, like missing out half the attacks the enemy unit gets in a comparison, or forgetting that you can attack champions outside of challenges.
Before watching the video, having played fantasy right before it got old yellered. Yes, the answer is yes. I run 100 of them in my 2k list.
Edit: I also have 80 archers. 40% of my army by points is peasants pre upgrades. 50% after. They do good work.
Personally I don't often need stubborn, I keep strategic foot knights nearby, they can always piggyback off their leadership.
Good lord above, I'd love to see this list lol. Right now I run one block of 60 MaA, with 20 longbowmen. What does the rest of your list look like?
You run 180 peasants in 2k? Can you post your list?
Apologies if I haven't made it to the right part of the video yet. But if you have the monk, and full command, and a SAA in the front rank of 5 or 6, and the enemy scores 6 wounds on you, does that mean your entire front rank (minus the one ACTUAL man-at-arms who dies from the wounds inflicted) still gets to attack back?
Seems like the Yeomen guards would be natural contenders
Would you be able to take them as allies in an empire army?
Can you thrown in a paliadin with enthalpy or a damsel for some magic
Typed that before he mentioned the enthaply knight
I’m thinking of running an all infantry Bretonnian exiles army (with my noble general having a phobia of horses which is why he’s been exiled). I actually decided on the army idea before even realising the peasants are any good but that’s a bonus. Though the Yeomen Guard look even better than Men at Arms? 1 point more but they can have free spears.
BsB is only re-rolling Panic and Rally, NOT Fear and Terror, just a heads up on that :)
Pretty sure Bretonnian lords cannont join the peasants, its one of their special rules
Virtue of Empathy
Sadly defensive options that fit the Sergeant at Arms allowance is pretty limited. I don't really trust that T3, 2W, with no more than a 5+ armor save to survive a round of combat. Forget challenges, dudes in base can just choose to attack him. At least he'll get a look out sir to survive wood elf sniping, unlike the unit champs.
Yesssss peasent power
Both regular State Troops and Veteran State Troops should have their points reduced by -1 and they should get Drilled for free. This would IMO make them more competitive they would be 4 and 6 points respectively for +1 or +2 (if Veteran State Troops) WS, Drilled, Veteran (if Veteran State Troops) and an innate 7 Leadership but without Horde, Shieldwall, and Warband and costing 6/8 points for Shield and Spear or 5/7 points for Halberds with potentially lower Leadership.
years ago my desired army was bretonian peasants, never have oportunity to make it real
My historian brain freaking out seeing shields and halberds being used at the same time 😂
Chariots
Well, they are cheaper then skeleton warriors wirh speers from vampirecounts
Yea.... but no. Thats just magical Christmas land bad theory crafting. They are not point efficiant. You can buy so many upgrades that reliability do nothing. Pilgrims are unbreakable, stubborn is crap in this Ed. Especially that as soon as it gets in to combat they will kill the priest and you loose stubborn which you paid like 40 point for. That is just stupid.
THeir biggesst issue iss enemiess with ws 4+ which is rather common. Being hit on a 2+ there is bad
you are way underselling how shit ws2 is. but i also think you forgot to mention that they get to use the LD of any knight unit within range
Skeletons are WS 2, so are goblins. Ya it's not good, but honestly unless you are facing WS 5 or higher, who cares. They are very good for their points
@@scottmills4164 entire chaos army my friend plays has ws 5.
2/3 of his elf army too.
Dwarves of another friend as well.
And TK skeletons ressurect, only give ground, and TK guard has killing blow
Night goblins get their shields for free
As do men at arms
Night gobs can have fanatics, which is their reason to exist.
Yes fantastic 👏 that explains a lot more than i new i learned a lot
always treated as a joke but there same as halberds in empire.😅
There soldiers pesants ,yes not knights, but soldiers trained patrol the dukedom and the castles walls towers not yokel farmer, lot are from long line of soldiers farther to son there veterans ,grizzled smelly savage ( its his land hes defending ).and can read write unlike other pesants
All those years of academy training wasted!!!
I played 50 last time with a BsB and a Lady. They were fine, not performing or underperforming ^^
they can't use the BSB reroll
@@stonem0013 why is that? (haven't seen it yet)
Read the “levies” rule.
They can’t use the BSB rerole
Warhammer: The Old World, Kingdom of Bretonnia - 2000pts
===
++ Characters [722 Pkte.] ++
Duke [466 Pkte.]
- Lance
- Heavy armour
- Shield
- General
- Hippogryph with Barding
- Gromril Greathelm
- Falcon-horn of Fredemund
- Virtue of Knightly Temper
Prophetes [211 Pkte.]
- Handweapon
- Level 4 Wizard
- Bretonnian Warhorse
- Lore Familiar
- Battle Magic
Sergeant-at-Arms [45 Pkte.]
- Handweapon
- Light armour
- on foot
++ Core [713 Pkte.] ++
9 Mounted Knights of the Realm [223 Pkte.]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- Standard bearer
49 Men-At-Arms [245 Pkte.]
- Hand weapons
- Polearms
- Shields
- Light armour
- Yeoman (champion)
- Standard
- Musician
- Grail Monk with Blessed Triptych
49 Men-At-Arms [245 Pkte.]
- Hand weapons
- Polearms
- Shields
- Light armour
- Yeoman (champion)
- Standard
- Musician
- Grail Monk with Blessed Triptych
++ Elite [330 Pkte.] ++
3 Pegasus Knights [165 Pkte.]
- Hand weapon
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
3 Pegasus Knights [165 Pkte.]
- Hand weapon
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
++ Rare [235 Pkte.] ++
6 Grail Knights [235 Pkte.]
- Hand weapons
- Lances
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- Standard bearer
do you understand that units will kill so many MaT you most likely will not even swing back and when your unit breaks, you loose all 40 models in it?
@@jiridrapal7512 did you watch the Video? The huge units are not on the table to deal any damage and overrunning them in a single turn or two will never happen
@@Jewus19 you are mistaken. No unit can be overrun in one turn.
But even blob of 50 MAA will be overrun in two turns easily.
@@Jewus19 the only thing that will keep the MAA in game is shieldwall and it is once per game only.
Reliquary Road blocks used2b rhe shit
They still can be - I put one reliquae each side of my MaAs, and a grail vow paladin in the MaA unit, so I have two unbreakable blocks on the flank of a stubborn unit. Basically a mobile wall that you have to attack the centre of to deal with the grail pilgrims' unbreakable buff from the grail paladin . That tempting centre and stickiness allows for some lovely flank charges once the enemy have commited....
Remember shieldwall only works if you use shields. So using spear function of polearms won’t get you shieldwall
You use spears they are one handed and get the shield
Polearms are spears and halberds at the same time, you just choose how you want to use them at the start of combat, so you can take them with shields. I guess you meant when using them two-handed you don't get shieldwall?
@@LordBilliam edited my comment. Yes, this is what I was getting at
@@Lordvader1212 edited it the wrong way lol. it works with the spear function, but not with the halberd
Obligatory Comment 🫡
If the blessed triptych stayed after the monk was killed you might be right, but the ~30pt T3 1W model just gets killed and no more stubborn. They're good fodder, but don't think the triptych is actually a thing.
Wood elves would love to see that. A couple arrows and it's gone, and I have a bsb build for wood elves to run in wild riders who causes -2 leadership and terror. Wild riders can easily front charge these guys kill everything that could strike back, and force a leadership 5 test to not get ran down.
They are so good, particularly the yeomen guard.
They are half the price of veteran state troops with identical stat lines...except the yeomen also get shieldwall, warband, horde (all fantastic, nay, mandatory rules for line holding infantry) AND they don't give up VP for their banners when they die.
I don't know whether men at arms are overpowered, or state troops under powered (I suspect the latter) but the difference is absolutely bonkers.
A state troop spearman at 7 points just brings nothing to the table. They have 'close order' and that's it.
Once again because the empire "can" add in stuff they get terrible points costs.
I suspect the both the Bretonnian peasants are too cheap and the Empire troops are too expensive. Both ideally could do with being adjusted. If they’re actually going to recost things in updates? Maybe we’re stick with it for the duration of the edition? I’m unsure.
WS 2 is real bad.
But it’s a neat concept! We’ll see if it’s viable.
So... Fantatastic video and having played several games now with my ker-nigits I can confirm. Yes, the Men at arms are the best unit in the game. Not just the best core unit. I havent even tried using a sergeant at arms yet due to the lack of a model. I do disagree with unit size though. If you take 49 and I take 2x units of 24 I guarantee I will win everytime. I will get the flank charge and you will become disordered. You'll lose your rank bonus and therefore your LD bonus too. I will however benefit from 2 close order bonuses which are accumulative. @mordianglory, I would love to hear your opinion on this?
I´ll deal with them with my 60 plus Orc wariiors. No worries. ^^
I´m not worried. People don´t play Bretonnians for men at Arms en masse.. If someone does. it will look awesome though, cool!
I think you're still discounting that WS deficiency. WS 5+ is just going to shred the unit hitting on 2's and receiving hits on 5's. It's probably why they so cheap. I think they decided any kind of melee infantry with WS2 is more or less worth 4 points or less.
You have to take into account the army synergies as well. Bretonnia has a lot of expensive knights to field. Peasants are probably discounted slightly to balance the army composition.
Who has WS5? Almost no one. Small WS differences matter less than ever with the new chart. 2's are hitting 3's AND 4's on 4 now, instead of on 5.
@@jonathandavis9118 the hit new hit chart makes ws 2 worse than before since they are hit easier than ever before. Also pretty much every elven infantry has ws 5 or above, just the core spears don't except eternal guards who do.
@@jonathandavis9118 Almost every character, especially the ones that ride monsters, elite infantry, which pretty much every army has, all have WS5. Its not uncommon.
@@jonathandavis9118 longbeards, ironbreakers, hammerers, white lions, swordmasters, phoenix guard, shadow warriors, sisters of averlorn, eternal guard, wildwood rangers, war dancers, all types of chaos warriors.
And that is only infantry. All of these will see a massive presence in their armies.And i listed only infantry from non legacy factions.
Most of units above have either good save, or armour piercing (so you save on 6+ or no save if using halberd). Or often both.
@pinch1loaf if the enemy is allocating elite troops to deal with peasants (requiring at least 2 turns) that's an absolute win. They can either waste the game chewing through 4 point models, or be held up so the knights can get a big flank charge
One thing I noticed you got wrong, models with the levies special rule can't use the BSB. So theres no rerolls your warbanded leadership.
You also can't combine shieldwall with halberds.
Its also worth noting that only a single knight can join the peasants (and only one knight per game) using the virtue of empathy, and really you want thay guy joined to the battle pilgrims to make them unbreakable.
It's a good video though, and men at arms have always been a great infantry unit even in 8th. In ToW they are certainly one of the best infantry units in the game. They aren't quite as good as your video represents in my opinion, and the more I've played the less I am including them, whereas in 8th I was taking blocks of 50+ almost as standard. They definitely need to be supported by either a knight or a sergeant at arms to prevent them fleeing from terror causing units and this adds more to cost to what is in effect a speed bump unit (a very good speed bump unit though!)
Definitely make a video on battle pilgrims. Those are the true GOATS of "crap-but-excellent" infantry.
All in all as a bretonnian player I'm on the fence as to whether they should be 5ppm or they're fine at 4ppm. I think the problem might lie with the fact state troops are so crap. They definitely need a bit of a boost. Swordsmen in particular at 5ppm just don't make sense.
Looking forward to the bext video
Cheers!
The grail monk will almost certainly be killed when charged, then there's no more stubborn.
The unit is far from being broken.
At best they will get +3 CR bonus for three ranks.
Now imagine someone will do 3 wounds on your MaA. They can even kill the monk.
You already draw on CR points and disregarding their possible own rank bonus. If charging unit has own rank bonus, then you loose and roll break test. If they have a rule that disrupts ranks, like first charge (many monster mounts have it), you are done.
The only possible scenario is to charge them into flank of elite unit, where only 2 superior models will fight your men. That's what i did with saurus warriors but mind you, saurus warriors have I1....
There is no reason to go above 24 MaA.
Unless of course you try to exploit the rules and put them into a congo line so all 50 can fight which of course negates their warbanrd and horde rules.
These have been a bit of a nonsense ever since the concepts of 'peasants' and 'men-at-arms' got bunged together. Peasants obviously shouldn't have the armour and probably not the weaponry while men-at-arms ought to have standard human profiles. I know the 3rd Ed army list had this right along with great names for the units, can't remember how soon after that they messed it up.
Putting that to one side this video feels like a very eggy pudding. As others have pointed out the grail monk, champion and Sergeant at Arms will very likely all get killed pretty much straight away by allocating attacks to them. I suspect it's also wrong to say they have to be killed to the last man as I think that even if the Sergeant somehow survives once the opponents are at more than double their unit strength 'Fall Back in Good Order' isn't an option so I don't suppose he can turn that into 'Give Ground'.
Further to that the stuff about dragons and so on didn't seem to make sense - if a dragon causes them to flee off the table then it's got the rest of the battle to kill other stuff. Even if it doesn't kill anything else (it will!) it's still 300 points up unless you kill it though of course it's true that it's owner would want it to do a lot more than that with it taking up such a big chunk of their army.
Also worth remembering that when comparing with other units some of them have special rules too - including horde and warband in some cases. They can also have characters in them. Some of them even have other purposes anyway eg Goblins are for delivering fanatics more than anything else as far as I can see.
I don't think Men-at-Arms are bad as they're very cheap so you can have a big unit that takes some killing and might just through strength of numbers hold something in place to be charged by your knights. Don't know whether opponents will be as keen to put themselves in a position for that to happen as you seem to hope, but can see it working some of the time. I do also actually like the special rules for the various champions and characters, just don't think they're survivable enough to get to put them into practice very often.
I would not entrust MaA to be in same combat as my knights.
Every killed MaA will generate CR that will help to break my knights.
@@jiridrapal7512 Them being in a combat could be a negative in this way if they're up against something that is slaughtering them in droves, but isn't true that every one you lose is causing a problem. If there are enough of them there then for combat res you've got something like +3 for ranks, +1 for close order, +1 for a standard and potentially a bonus for your other unit being in the flank or rear as a result of the men-at-arms having held the opponent in place. Maybe one or two to come off that if your knights would have had a rank bonus of their own, but still significant. So it's only each one above that that's causing an issue.
Slight correction in that standards don't stack so no gain from that if the knights have their own. Close Order does stack though as I understand it.
However, something else very significant that they do bring in this scenario is that they make it much more likely that you outnumber the opponent by more than 2:1 so if the knights do their bit then perhaps you're breaking and running down something that would otherwise have fallen back.
Also I think if it's got you a flank charge you wouldn't otherwise have had then the opponent will lose their rank bonus if they had one so that's a further possible contribution to CR (would have to check).
yes men at arms are broken and the most undercosted unit in entire tow. its imposible how a unit with 1 attack s4 and rend1 with t3 and s5 cost only 4 points when these stats must cost 8/10 points.
even 8 points would be cheap,but 4 seems a joke and must be faqed
Pretty funny considering they're basically degenerate humans with that profile. I never could embrace that, even from a lore standpoint. WS/BS 3 LD 7 has always been your basic man. This idea all the Lords run their people into the ground came post 5th ed. I might just ignore that and bring them back to 7pts.. Also headhunting for better man-at-arms models.
Man old world is sure already broken , betwen the dragon , line hammer and thats , the rules look atrocious
Dont want to pop you bubble but all you have to do is to tie them down with your own chaff, cast Gathering darkness on them and then charge them with anytning on the flank. They will get -2 leader and no inspiring present plus disturbed ranks so your great unit will role on some sh*ty morale and insta run away. When wunning away then dont get warband bonus so you dont even have to run them down.
All you have to do use your wizard and at least two units to deal with a 40 man block that doesn't even cost 200 points. It's easy guys.
@@LegateGallusRight!
its so sad that clan rats are 6... men at arms are so much better
I'd rather have a clanrat at 6 than a state troop at 7. A clan rat with spear and shield has +1 initiative over a state troop spearman, +1 movement (both absolutley huge stats) and with horde and warband, they get an additional point leadership and an extra point of combat res. AND they are one point cheaper!
Uhhhh No. Just no. You are trying to use them as an anvil but they will give up so many wounds to what ever is attacking them that even throwing in your damage dealing units in the flank you will never win combat and just get ground down to nothing over the course of the game. They seem ok as a tarpit but overpowered they are not.
What about Yeomen from the Exiles list? 2 points more but +1 Leadership and Weapon skill and Veteran.
Huh imperial guard a player a bunch of useless road bumps best unit a guardsman would have this opinion
Oh stop with the broken cries. Effective yes, but broken? No. Seriously, not all the official armies are even fully released yet and only a fraction of the community is even playing. No one knows shyte yet. Give it 6-12 months of event feedback before spewing the OP or Broken label. This is warhammer, not whine-hammer ;)
Debatable if it's even effective, grail monks are very easy to single out with attacks.
hnnn men at arms have same stats than units of 8+ points bit cost only 4. yes they are broken and need be nerfed to 8 points or more to be balanced
@@toro132 They are really only overpowered compared to empire state troops, which are horrifically overcosted and thus terrible. If you compare a men at arms to a dwarf or elf at 8 or 9 points for example, you can see just how many more stats the non peasants have.
@@jonathandavis9118 yes even compared to elfs basic men of spears,have same 3s 3t and save 5, but men of arms have worse ws and initiative and better skills as choose a weapon of s+1 and rend1 and shieldwall.
they are very similar in stats but elfs cost 9 and these only 4.
its imposible compare men at arms to goblins or elfs and dont see how men of arms cant cost 4
@mitchcovan1446 But if it doesn't say broken in the title, how will the video get any views?! =)
You are absolutely right. We will know in 12 months if anything is broken and I bet MaA are not.