My issue with the “too complex” argument is how the rules committee seems to be the only ones that are incapable of reading. The same ones that thought it would be easier to explain to people state based actions when a commander dies rather than just tell players “if your commander would die, you can put it back into the command zone instead” because actual members on the committee didn’t know how the rules of the game worked.
Yeah I think that argument is totally ridiculous, considering grist is allowed to be your commander, even though the way that the rules about what can be your commander are worded would suggest that it can't.
My issue is they don’t follow their own criteria. And with the recent ‘explanations’ it’s even more clear the ban list is just some made up feel like whatever list. They banned 8 of the power 9 because more of ‘optics’ that expensive cards shouldn’t prohibit you from playing. Time twister is legal in the format somehow, but upheaval bad!
Twister has better alternatives according to RC which is why its not banned. Imagine a card that costs a lot but it has better alternatives so it doesn't matter as much
I genuinely don't know why people get so twisted up on this topic when Commander is a made up feel like whatever format. Like yeah, you hit the nail on the head, that's what it is. Also Timetwister is not even a good card in EDH. Wheels as a whole are really only good if you're doing something degenerate with them, and in that situation losing your graveyard is a downside.
If coalition victory should remain banned because its getting easier to cast, then Thassa's oracle and demonic consultation should be banned because you can cast it turn 1, 2, or 3.
Yeah comparing coalition victory to thassa's oracle it's a universe of difference. Oracle is played in many formats, but the only way you could play coalition victory in legacy or vintage is if you combo it with dream halls conflux or something. Oracle could be banned in EDH easily, but coalition victory should have been unbanned long ago even with biomes and such the creature requirement is easy to interact with for many decks causing it to fizzle out.
@@Gleebusaz But there are jerkbags going to casual games and playing Thorical. "But there is prize, thus must win" SOme meta's and LGS have that one guy you can't avoid outside of punching them. and punching people over a card game is a bad look
tbh when you described your "Orc army" card and said it shows you fighting "back the forces of darkness", the flavor and lore police almost kicked down my door. youre representing the Orc army which infact fights for the darkness and are enemies to the light.
Balance is banned for the wrong reason. When it's played properly, Balance doesn't make the game 'equal': you can just play a lot of artifacts, or strong creatures. The reason Balance should be banned, is because it doesn't exile itself on resolution, which means it can be abused very easily.
My reason for being 'fine' with Coalation Victory (13:09) is that, at best, it a 3 card combo (Commander, lay-line, and spell), for at best 8 mana in one turn (Can easily be 13 if you need to cast commander, or even 18 if you need the layline), that has to resolve with all three cards going off without a hitch . Meanwhile there plenty of 2 card combo with less interactions that cost way less that are legal in Commander. The classic Demonic Consultation + Thassa's Oracle combo require at least one of your opponents to have a counter spell, otherwise you win instantly for a black and two blue. You cant even kill Thassa in this combo, since it an ETB, where you can easily kill the creature on the board that allowing Coalation victory.
Yeah best you can do is stifle the triggered ability of oracle, but how many people are running stifle effects in EDH not many. I think you meant to say a black and 2 blue too since consult is B and oracle UU.
Turn 3 Win with Coalition Victory: Leyline of the Guildpact, Bloom Tender, Any 3 Lands, Coalition Victory. There are ways to even speed it up beyond that. Plus there is an abundance of redundancies for basically every component that still set up rather consistent/easy turn 5 or 6 wins. Prismatic Omen, Dryad of the Illysian Grove, Nylea's Presence as redundancies for the "All Basic Land Types" condition (not to mention that even fetching 2 Tri-lands easily provides all 5 Basic Land Types). Then there is stuff like Fallaji Wayfarer and Transguild Courier that make getting a permanent of all colors easy. We have tutors like Beseech the Mirror that can put Leyline of the Guildpact directly into play for the Bargain. Bloom Tender's mana acceleration has redundancies with Faeburrow Elder and to a lesser extent with Jegantha the Wellspring in the command zone. They are also now a bunch of free counterspells with Force of Will, Force of Negation, Pact of Negation, Fierce Guardianship. There are also a bunch of good/viable tutors now. Like, if you actually wanted to build that deck, it is SO EASY to accomplish now. Arguably dozens of times easier than when Coalition Victory was banned. Sure, there are other combos can win just as quickly, but few of them have so many points of redundancy and so little opportunity cost to add into a deck. Plus, if someone blocks the combo, you don't straight up lose the game on a countered Coalition Victory like you would with a Stifled Thassa's Oracle + Demonic Consultation combo. You can just Eternal Witness or regrowth (or the dozens of other cards that do the same thing) to get back the pieces. You can even just play a completely standard 5 color good stuff strategy that tries to win by spamming card value with how pushed multi-colored card design has been within the last decard, and it all would be viable within the deck because cards like Dryad of the Illysian Grove, Leyline of the Guildpact, Bloom Tender, Fallaji Wayfarer, etc are just good cards in their own right so you aren't just playing random jank, with Coalition Victory being a random "Do I win?" button inside the deck. It just requires so little effort to make it viable inside of a 5 color deck. Many of the cards that make it work best are just cards you are likely to want to be playing in a 5 color deck anyways. The addition of Coalition Victory just makes those decks have a top deck that can just instantly win the game sometimes without them even needing to do anything particularly special. You will often just naturally have the board state that meets the conditions for Coalition Victory so it becomes a 1 card "combo" off the top of your deck. Edit - Forgot that Coalition Victory requires creatures of all colors, so it would also need something like Fallaji Wayfarer or Transguild Courier. I suppose that makes it slightly slower and easier to disrupt, but my point still largely stands that it could just be put into certain 5 color decks as a "I drew this card and just instantly won" sort of thing, because there are 5 color decks that will just naturally have a board state with all basic land types and creatures of all colors even with only 3-4 lands in play and 2-3 creatures in play. And at that point it is just a 1 card "Win the game" if the table goes shields down not expecting you to top deck it.
@Morkins324 the problem with that is that coalition victory is not the only oops i win in the format there are plenty of 2 card infinites in commander where one of the pieces is a commander (Heliod sun crowned+ Walking ballista being a big one) where the other piece basically becomes an i win button
so i had a thought, whats worse: someone casting sway of the stars or someone casting worldfire? not arguing the ban on Sway, im just curious if an unbanned card thats sorta similar to sway has the same vibe around the table.
Sway of the Stars. At least with Worldfire the only thing I need to do as the caster is setup some method so each of my opponent's on their turn takes 1 damage. Like an easy way you can seal a game with Worldfire is Chandra Awakened Inferno. As she creates an emblem for each opponent that deals 1 damage to them at the beginning of their turn. But there is other methods to do that, like if your commander is Zurgo Bellstrker and you floated 10 mana, you could cast Worldfire then cast Zurgo who is a 2/2 for R. With Sway of the Stars you would need to do that but for 7 life for each opponent. Its like if you armageddon the board, but you don't have a way to end the game.
Super late to this but from the perspective of cedh gifts makes a big difference compared to intuition, you can assemble an underworld breach win combo with just gifts, with intuition you need to have 1 of the 4 combo pieces in hand. (Underworld Breach, Brain Freeze, Lion's Eye Diamond and Sevinne's Reclamation, regardless of which 2 of these 4 get sent to the graveyard if you have enough mana and a handful of other cards in your graveyard you can assemble a win) This may seem a bit specific but Breach combos are some of the most reliable ways to win for some of the best decks in the format.
@@juliand.1147Kinnan is strong, but all Rofellos cares is that you make landdrops and it's probably a deck with only forests. Having 6 mana on turn 3 consistently because it would be your commander is pretty damn strong and if you add in ways to play more lands it can get sillier still. If it was only played as a card in the 99 yeah not too strong and certainly worse than sol ring, but sol ring has deserved to be banned forever.
@@dstreetz91 I can see that Rofellos is stronger when you don't tune the 99, as making use of his ability is easier. On the other hand almost all Kinnan decks include very many ramp pieces that work with Kinnan. I think that such a tuned Kinnan deck is stonger than Rofellos by a good margin. Firstly because Kinnan has draw in the form of the activated ability. Secondly because Kinnan has blue, thereby counters and just more options for cards. Also yes Sol Ring and Mana Crypt totally should be banned.
@@juliand.1147 As someone who did play with Rofellos when he was a commander, he was very strong for his day. Also your not factoring in one of the things about Rofellos. He is budget friendly and would more likely be played over Kinnan by casual players. You can realistically build a good Rofellos deck for easily under a $100, and that is not factoring the price of Rofellos himself or the forests. Plus since commander is a casual format, the player of a tuned Kinnan deck would be very likely asked to tune down their deck or swap to a different deck. Rofellos is that but on a budget. As once you reach about 6 lands, you can cast most spells with Rofellos that are 12 mana or less. Like if you cast a rampant growth on turn 2, you can bring down a Blightsteel Colossus on turn 5 with Rofellos, assuming you made each of your mana drops.
I feel like Dockside, Bowmaster, and The One Ring have the same play pattern as Primeval Titan.. people trying to steal, clone, copy the trigger, reanimate etc.
@@Hakaze See. I like this idea. I think cedh needs its own list, 'cause the differences between casual play and cedh are so great that they're practically completely different formats.
@@Sona_Buvelleyou can make a separate banlist and say it's for cEDH, but that doesn't mean cEDH players will use it. Pretty much all cEDH players have said they would ignore any attempt to separate the format and just follow whatever the main banlist is. Because cEDH isn't a format, anymore than tournament Modern and kitchen table Modern are different formats, it's just playing the format in a competitively optimal way.
The EDH Ban List is just cards that /can/ do well in Timmy-level playgroups, but would either be slow/clunky in higher-level play. Or, in the case of Flash, just being as degenerate as ThOracle/Demonic Consul in cEDH - a completely different format that deserves a separate ban list. Cards like Crusade and Invoke Prejudice aren't problems. I would run Crusade solely because I like the Elspeth Dual Deck art. Just rename most of those cards and make some new art. Invoke Prej is just a really good stax piece.
The difference between Armageddon and Wrath of God is that it's a lot easier to repopulate your board with creatures than it is to recover lands. Aside from that, the usual play pattern with Armageddon is to play a big combo or set up a value engine, then nuke everyone's lands so they cant break your board on their turns, leaving the person who played Armageddon WAAAAY out in the lead.
Armageddon was a go to card for me back in the Day. My first deck I made was an Elves/Red Deck (1999). Get enough Llanowar Elves and such out there that can be Mana...Armageddon everything and watch your opponent cry. I didn't even care if I won, I just wanted games to go long enough to Armageddon it all.
A perfect example for mass land destruction, in the actual ban list, is Balance. However, in a format so wide and articulated, the less cards are on the ban list, the better: the answer to each and every issue are all right there. At most, we could think about UNbans, but not bans (example: if Rhystic is considered an issue - and it's not - , just unban Hullbreacher). For the cEDH end of the meta, people WANT to play with powerful cards that you can use only in this format, it's the point to come across that meta; for the Casuals, is it possible to manage ANY issues just with the rule 0; so, there's really zero reason to take these efforts.
Just play the original. The fact that it`s banned from official play doesn`t mean it`s banned in your casual play. The sjw-bans which Invoke was part of didn`t make sense for half the cards anyway. I`m totally on board with not printing stuff like Invoke nowadays but it`s simply a piece of it`s time that in terms of functionality inside the MtG-context is still only represented on 2 cards total the other beeing Nethervoid
My Chulane deck wants Limited Resources so bad. If i could have one card of the banned list I'd be sweating between that and Leovold back as my commander.
i will say part of the issue with recurring nightmare is that it is a bitch and a half to actually interact with because bouncing it is a part of the cost to activate the ability,
I mean, Sensei's Divining Top is similarly agitating to interact with - and it is easily one of the most irritating cards to play against because of how it creates exponentially more decision points in a game.
@MadMage86 the thing with top is that in most decks top is just annoying rather than an overpowered card. Top does have powerful synergies but Recurring nightmare does more for more decks because almost every black deck would love that kind of effect to be able to repeatedly get value creatures and fatties back from the yard. In effect Recurring nightmare can help close the game by itself top is outside of combos mostly just time consuming
@@spearhead2054 which unless it is mass exile they can just get back as soon as they have a creature. in order to deal with a recurring nightmare you need to destroy or exile all creatures hope none of them leave tokens and then destroy nightmare ore rip it from their hand after they bounce it.
This was an excellent walkthrough. I see so many people hating on the banlist without understanding the rationalizations behind most of the entries (and omissions). Nearly all of your reasoning was exactly how I understand it. And glad to see some love for Gifts, I'd love to see that off the banlist for LftL setups. I will say that I don't think Tabernacle is a problem, since you mentioned it a couple times. I do own one so I guess I'm biased, but I also own a library and I think library makes way more sense to keep banned. Library can go into a TON of decks, basically every control deck I've ever built would want it, and that create a P2W situation. Tabernacle is a great card, but it's also pretty niche by comparison, plus it's mechanically stax, which people rarely play unless they're playing cEDH or nearly so. So it only creates bad P2W vibes for people who are largely outside the target audience of the banlist, and only for certain decks.
I have a 5C Matters deck with Ramos, Dragon Engine as a commander. Coalition Victory would be so incredibly easy to win with and anti-climactic in my Ramos deck that I wouldn't want to put it in even if it WAS legal. The card would be unbelievably lame in 5C commander decks.
You say incredibly easy but it's an 8 mana sorcery that can be interacted with by somebody killing a creature that has a color you need or simply countering it. Color identity doesn't do anything for it so not even Ramos helps get the condition. A swords on your only red pip or any counterspell and you've blown most of your turn doing nothing.
The commander play list is a joke. What is and more importantly, what isn’t ban is laughingly inconsistent. So my playgroup just doesn’t follow it. We kinda just throw random jank and bulk into a deck and grind a few games when we aren’t playing legacy or modern. It’s an amazing time when you play commander how it’s suppose to be played. Causally, with random bulk you have lying around. When WOTC started to monetize and capitalize on commander is when I stopped playing it as much. It really is ruining the format and to a certain extent the game.
I have one of the banned-for-sensitivity cards that got reprinted in a precon with new art, specifically the Elspeth vs Tezzeret version of Crusade. Other than it being a 2 mana anthem, I don't see what's wrong with that specific version and have permission to rule zero it into my monowhite soldiers. I have no such objections about not being allowed to use my Tolarian Academy in Esper.
@@data_abortTo be fair, instrad of a functional reprint there have been a few cards that are just better. Honor of the Pure is a less restrictive casting cost and is one sided. The more recent Flowering of the White Tree is also just better.
I had Iona in my Kaalia deck for ages. Was surprised they took so long to ban her, and that at the end of the day they only banned her because they didn’t want the degeneracy of her and Painter’s Servant being legal at the same time. As sad as I was to see her go, I was happy I could slot PS into my Teysa deck for utter nonsense.
One of the first games I played of EDH had an Erayo deck at the table. There were 11 people. Erayo won the first game in about 20 minutes, so three turns. Next game we all killed that guy immediately and then played for 12 more hours in one game. Best game of magic I've ever played. Never again though.
The very-real thing you're describing where the real ban list isn't the ban list but rather some vague and inconsistent idea of what's obnoxious is one of the things that made it so hard to get into commander for me (despite many attempts ~10 years ago as casual Magic was shifting to 100% commander). I've barely played Magic since then and not entirely sure why I watched this video but I found it very validating!
I find it interesting how Gaea's Cradle is upwards of $600 but Growing Rites of Itlimoc is under $3 even though Growing Rites gets you a land in hand and under the right circumstances, flips into a slightly better version of Gaea's Cradle. I get that it's 3 mana for 1 land with only a slight upgrade in that it's still useful with zero creatures on board, but still.
Growing Rights is significantly worse than Cradle - you don't get to use it the turn it comes in. It's an end step trigger. Massive downgrade. Cradle is Reserve List, and can't be reprinted. That's a large pat of the price.
Coalition Victory is weaker as printed than your suggested end step trigger. Coalition Victory checks on resolution once, were as your version would check on end step presumably multiple times. As you alternatively suggested, an upkeep trigger would be weaker, however, as you'd paint a big flag that says "Kill me."
There really are cards that SHOULD be on the banlist, but aren’t because of…dumb reasons. Meanwhile some cards are on the banlist when they shouldn’t be 😂 Though I may be biased for my Pirates
Gifts ungiven is very very powerful when you target player A, right after player B puts him out of contention for winning. I kind of get the ban, though i would like to see it backj.
funny rules interaction (correct me if wrong) i believe as it enters the gy you can respond to that trigger that shuffles it to deck with a instant reanimator it wont get the cast benefits but oh no anyway yeh (yes this applies to all the big eldrazis) also storm the vault is a 4 mana transform fair tolerian academy .
I think the only card on the list I have a problem with is Gifts Ungiven. Having played against it in Limited 1v1 games I feel like in Commander it will either take forever and a day to resolve as the player tries to find what silver bullets they want and ways to ensure they get them, or functionally (or literally) ends the game on the spot when they get an impossible pile like the Unburial Rites example. That said, either Intuition needs banning or Gifts needs unbanning. Gifts is of course better due to being "up to 4 cards" but Intuition is so prohibitively expensive that it's functionally banned in no-proxy environments and the effects of both cards are too similar for them to be on opposites sides of a ban. All in all though I would love for everything to be unbanned and the list started over while reinstating "banned as commander" as an option, and use hard bans instead of "signpost" bans.
To me, cards like Esper Sentinel, Smothering Tithe and Rhystic Study are prime ban targets. They either massively advantage one player or restrict the rest of the table and they require no investment or setup. Absolutely groan inducing for me. At least Mystic Remora has a cumulative upkeep.
I really like the idea of Coalition Victory, but the problem like you said is triomes, tap duals, and especially Leyline now. I'd love to see a retrain though to upkeep or end step on an enchantment or artifact, something. The flavour is great, it's just the execution isn't at all in line with the current state of the game. I'd say the same for banning pieces of Thoracle if there was the support for it too. There's a lot of "win from nowhere" feelsbad where the answer is effectively just "play blue". Personally I wouldn't balk at Cradle banning either for accessibility's sake, ditto the OG duals, but on their face none of those are THAT bad. I'm not actively pushing for their banning, I just wouldn't lose sleep either.
I truly don't understand the purpose of the committee that's in charge of these things like the banlist. All they ever seem to do is announce they will do nothing and then justify it by saying it's casual so you can rule 0 and then also ask the question I hate which is "if we unban 'x' what does it add to the game" and the reason I hate that question is it just feels like it's in bad faith because just about every card in Magic has a use for someone.
Fastbond is way too good in landfall decks where you can ignore the 1 life through a 1 cost creature and proceed to combo win on turn 1 with the help of bounce lands and Amulet of Vigor.
I, frankly, don't see how me assembling a bunch of mana dorks and a beast whisperer, playing paradox engine and casting my whole deck is any more ban worthy than playing a couple cost reducers and Jhoira to draw my pile of practically 99 mana rocks. I don't play Jhoira in fun casual matches. I let people know it will likely lead to a turn or two of solitaire. Sometimes, people are into watching something cool come together, so I do play it from time to time, especially when my students make a plan to all gang up on me to take down my "most powerful" deck. If I could play Paradox Engine, if treat it the same. An awesome card for awesome moments. Instead, the only time I've played it in commander was when I'd finally built a deck that I thought might be able to pull off a win against my pod, which had far more years of experience and much deeper pockets than I did. When I played the Engine and knew I could win that turn, it was exhilarating. When I was told that's a banned card, it was embarrassing. When they let me play it anyways, and I "only won because I didn't know the rules", it cheapened all my work and careful planning to get to the point where I could swing for lethal. The ban list ruined my first EDH win, and I can never have that back.
My opinion on bans in commander is that if a card repeatedly leads to games that end with 3/4 of the table sighing and shuffling after a boring and anticlimactic win of the 4th player, maybe that card isn’t perfect for the format
The only thing i really disagree with is panoptic mirror. Everyone cries about tine warp panoptic mirror but a 10 mana two card combo at sorcery speed that does nothing until your opponents all get an entire turn to respond does not seem like a problem to me. It feels like that one is on the ban list because no one ever thought too hard about it
I can't agree with gifts and nightmare.the reason those two are banned is that so long as you know how to play with them, those cards have zero counterplay aside from counter spells
I only play with friends and we just set our own rules, banlist and that so these topics never really matter to me. But I always find it funny when people get so heated about a banlist it's like ya know you can play it amongst others who don't care to follow it or play with those who do. What a simple solve.
The ban list just doesn't address what people who want to play High Power but Not CEDH. The committee needs to realize a lot of people don't want to durdle up for a few turns before doing anything while the also don't wanna play several rocks over the first few turns while contemplating whether or not they should kill the Tyma or the combo piece, or it's safe to cast their own.
If lutri is a problem for being an extra free card outside the 99. Then it should be applied to other companions. I find it ridiculous since they're supposed to be ein the sideboard. (Commander doesn't have a sideboard)
The ban list is weird because inherently a casual format shouldn't need banned cards. Ideally each playgroup would just come up with their own list for their own pod. The problem arises when ppl want to play at LGS or Conventions with others they've never met. Here it can be a good tool but is ultimately not enough so rule 0 talks should still take place. Imo we should all see the ban list more as a suggestion than anything else and ideally there would be multiple sets of ban lists for CEDH and casual or those that ban certain strategies. That way even at Conventions you could simply say "hey lets play with ban list xy" and everyone would know if their decks would be legal for that.
I think the idea behind Chaos Orb/ Falling Star being banned is not just because they are stupid silver border effects, but that everyone should be able to play magic regardless of physical disabilities, and I can get behind that Still, if someone tells me they have a chaos orb in their deck, I'm giving them a thumbs up Library of Alexandria being banned makes me kind of wish Mishra's Workshop were banned, even if workshop is really fun on MTGO where you can actually get a copy
I want to know what you think of Approach of the second sun. Like Coalition Victory, it is a Sorcery that can win the game, although not as sudden as the Victory.
I was playing commander during the short period Sylvan Primodial was legal and one guy was Entomb + Exhuming it turn 2. That was a bit of an awkward time when commander was new and growing and WotC wasn't designing around it
23:12 I am with you on the four and five colors thing. The game is based on the idea of restrictions. If you play a two-color deck, your mana is better and allows you to play cards with more “devotion” to that color. The downside of multi-colored cards was that they were harder to cast. However, with the popularity of Commander, the downside is now the upside. This also goes for being legendary. A card should not be BETTER by being legendary.
I can’t understand why mind slaver isn’t banned. It’s my number one feel bad card in existence. I don’t play for 30 minutes and have to have someone else’s hands all over my cards playing my deck as poorly as they can. And it’s only one player so it’s not like it comes close to ending the game for anyone but one player.
Primeval Titan pales in comparison to dockside, and Sheldon Menery admits that it warps games it's in, but says it's not banned since it only affects more competitive pods. But let's be honest, it's a money thing, and neither he nor the RC/CAG would hit dockside with a ban and have Wotc lose such high reprint equity.
I think 3 colors is best. I hate that my doctors tribal deck is forced to be 4 colors especially because all the green doctors shouldn't be green. None of them make sense as green.
The Iona banning was just a clear example of their incompetence, they banned it so someone on the committee could get to play with painters servant again
11:30 I also thought it was named after Smokestack but apparently that's only partly true. Stax derived its name from the original nickname, $T4KS. The 4 Thousand Dollar Solution. There's a bit of history to it, so I'd recommend doing some research. Could be nice, free content.
My group unbanned sundering Titan. With how many non basics in the format it really doesn’t do too much unless Yavimaya, Urborg or Duals are in play. Far better things you could doing for the investment
Definitely agree, it does work at removing a lot of degenerate things from the game. The ban list isn't perfect and has plenty of cards that should be on it/taken off it, that being said thoracle combo needs to go. And maybe dockside... even tho I think red needs it, it's pretty dumb.
Unban Lutri, declare that he is unable to be used as a Companion due to the ease of use for Commander (basically the inverse of the U/W Bird who's Companion rule is to have 20 extra cards in the deck)
i feel like invoke prejudice should get a reprint in the form of a new card with a different name and art but same cost and ability since it’s a really cool counter effect that i would love to use in a control deck but without the racist implications you know?
New player hear only got 4 games total that invoke p card actually has a cool effect what alternative are there that do that kind of thing? Before anyone says anything I am literally playing against a group that everyone has infinite combos and one plays humans that gain like every keyword and like 200 attack and has multiple combats a turn 😢
I really want to build a "big dick energy" deck that is built around hard casting those rediculous 8-10 cmc spells just for the hell of it. Personally if i were in a game and my opponent actually pulled off one of those spells I'd laugh and say GG, they dont need to be banned
I think the argument against a card like Armageddon, is essentially the same as the argument against a card like Farewell - feels miserable to be on the receiving side of, and is only a fine play pattern, if the player using it does so as a part of an efficient win-condition. Players who use either as a stall tactic are the problem, not the cards themselves. No one wants a game that was gonna last 45 minutes to last 2 hours because someone cast a single card that essentially reset the game.
I don't get the Coalition Victory argument. Depending on a board state it can be hosed by a simple spot removal spell. It also can be hosed by Platinum Angel type effects or removed from the stack. It's unreliable as hell and needs protection in a pod with interaction. In a battle cruiser pod with four Timmies at the table it is stupid, but the moment pod starts using interaction - it's very situational Edit: Erayo is another extremly stupid ban. All you need is a way to double the amount of loyalty counters Planeswalkers get on the ETB and Jace, Unraveler of Secrets and BAM you have an unremoveable Erayo effect by using only TWO cards. And it's legal.....
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH No, Erayo is not a stupid ban. I played when she was legal, built many decks with her, faced off against many. First, you're trying to mimic her power with with a specific card. Erayo doesn't need specific cards. Your opponents cards even help you out. You just play the game as normal and you flip her. The speed at which an Erayo deck would flip it was always that turn. 2nd, she's only a two mana investment. Far cheaper than the combo you trying to put down. Combined with the fact that she counts your opponents' spells played as well as itself and I'm sure you can see how her speed is just disgusting. Third, this was over 10 years ago. The game has become even more explosive. More powerful ramp, rituals, free interaction and card draw. She is not a card that has been power crept at all. Erayo only gets finer over the years. Lastly, you can easily flip her in response to removal, most likely nullifying said removal as she turns into a enchantment. In addition, since she's a creature and not a planeswalker, returning her for more tries is always a possibility and easier than your Jace.
When it comes to the monetary cost of cards, I'm of mixed feelings. On the one hand, I fully support proxies, provided that no one tries to sell them pretending they're real cards. However, given the RC's link to WOTC I can understand why they can't officially condone that, and therefore feel the need to speak up about expensive cards. But at the same time, if everyone is allowed to proxy and knows what they're getting into, I don't see a problem with proxying expensive cards. It's a tough topic for the RC because they're not employed by WOTC, but they do have to maintain a working relationship. I guess this is what Rule 0 is for, but I can see the issues here.
Gotta disagree with the coalition Victory argument. It's hard to pull off than demonic consultation+thassa oracle and that's still allowed plus even when it works, the result is everyone shuffles and plays a new game of magic. I feel like too many players feel like losing a game of magic is a big deal and a personal attack. Or that if someone else wins they didn't deserve the victory because of some wacky reason that only makes sense to them. You got a land type of each type, creatures of all 5 colors, and resolved an 8 mana card. All that is a lot to jump though to win. Congrats. Now shuffle and see who goes first in the next game. That card is so much easier to disrupt than throacle but if it wins it wins. At least with biorythm I can see a board where one guy is ahead on cards and mana but no creatures. So the green player resolves it and only one player does. Now they have to sit there and watch as the rest of the game goes on. With throacle and co Victory people just move into a new game of magic
Well i took golos and threw in all the bad old dragons. Its Futusight Scion now, but it was fun to jsut slam some realy bad dragons down and slap some ppl.
They need to either be more consistent or just leave at this point! People get salty Because there is no consistency. I wish it was Clear Cut rules Cards under 4 mana that can make more mana then you put in - banned Cards under 4 mana that destroy multiple Land - banned Commanders that have any possibility to win the game if you cast it when you have Have 0 cards in hand no noland permanents on field nothing in your graveyard. And just enough mana to use the ability once! Simple rules that when it comes out you can read it and be like that will be banned
If someone wins the game cause they cast an 8 mana sorcery speed spell that requires a permanent in play, they deserve to win. Play more removal and/or more counter magic, or be ok with losing games
Invoke prejudice doesn't picture KKK members in its art, as per the art director of the time and the artist himself the art is inspired by/depicts the spanish inquisition.
Coalition Victory and Biorythm should both be unbanned. Coalition Victory is the easier case; it checks on resolution. Every color has cheap, instant-speed interaction available to stop it. It is easier to stop than Insurrection. 3WUBRG is a silly, restrictive cost. The broader issue is that the banned list presents a conundrum. Cards that slow things down but don't win are frowned upon. Ok, that makes sense. Cards that win out of nowhere like Flash are banned, ok, sure. But to me that points to cards that win decisively with proper setup. But now we're banning some of those? But we're banning Biorythm, which requires you to have things and your opponents to not have things and not banning Insurrection which requires your opponents to have things but doesn't care what you have? One of those is far more of a win from nowhere card and it's not the one that's banned. Winning with Craterhoof requires less setup than winning with Biorythm does, to say nothing of Lab Man or Thoracle.
I love that “Banned as Commander” but legal in the 99 is too complex…
But the game is literally Magic: The Gathering with 30 years of mechanics.
It's specifically too complex for MTGO. That ancient game has no way of differentiating between 'commander' and '99'.
My issue with the “too complex” argument is how the rules committee seems to be the only ones that are incapable of reading. The same ones that thought it would be easier to explain to people state based actions when a commander dies rather than just tell players “if your commander would die, you can put it back into the command zone instead” because actual members on the committee didn’t know how the rules of the game worked.
@@endersblade Existing is too complex for MTGO. What an awful UI experience that program is.
Yeah I think that argument is totally ridiculous, considering grist is allowed to be your commander, even though the way that the rules about what can be your commander are worded would suggest that it can't.
@@HomeCookinMTGgrist when is not on the board is a legendary creature i dont see where is the problem whith a legendary creature being your commander
My issue is they don’t follow their own criteria. And with the recent ‘explanations’ it’s even more clear the ban list is just some made up feel like whatever list.
They banned 8 of the power 9 because more of ‘optics’ that expensive cards shouldn’t prohibit you from playing. Time twister is legal in the format somehow, but upheaval bad!
Timetwister was a about as expensive as mana drain for awhile
Twister has better alternatives according to RC which is why its not banned. Imagine a card that costs a lot but it has better alternatives so it doesn't matter as much
I genuinely don't know why people get so twisted up on this topic when Commander is a made up feel like whatever format. Like yeah, you hit the nail on the head, that's what it is.
Also Timetwister is not even a good card in EDH. Wheels as a whole are really only good if you're doing something degenerate with them, and in that situation losing your graveyard is a downside.
Timetwister is a genuinely bad card in commander. It was powerful when they put it in the nine, but now it's not.
If coalition victory should remain banned because its getting easier to cast, then Thassa's oracle and demonic consultation should be banned because you can cast it turn 1, 2, or 3.
Yea you can but people aren’t playing thoracle in a super casual deck, people would absolutely run coalition in most casual 5c decks
Yeah comparing coalition victory to thassa's oracle it's a universe of difference. Oracle is played in many formats, but the only way you could play coalition victory in legacy or vintage is if you combo it with dream halls conflux or something. Oracle could be banned in EDH easily, but coalition victory should have been unbanned long ago even with biomes and such the creature requirement is easy to interact with for many decks causing it to fizzle out.
Even with leyline of the guildpact, coalition victory is more reasonable of a win than Thoracle.
@@Gleebusaz But there are jerkbags going to casual games and playing Thorical. "But there is prize, thus must win" SOme meta's and LGS have that one guy you can't avoid outside of punching them. and punching people over a card game is a bad look
@@SoloWing88 they are playing 100% correctly if I paid to play and there is a price on the line you should play at 100% maximum efficiency
tbh when you described your "Orc army" card and said it shows you fighting "back the forces of darkness", the flavor and lore police almost kicked down my door. youre representing the Orc army which infact fights for the darkness and are enemies to the light.
Vince is fighting the orc army
Balance is banned for the wrong reason. When it's played properly, Balance doesn't make the game 'equal': you can just play a lot of artifacts, or strong creatures. The reason Balance should be banned, is because it doesn't exile itself on resolution, which means it can be abused very easily.
The same should apply to all non-exiling Time Warp effects
My reason for being 'fine' with Coalation Victory (13:09) is that, at best, it a 3 card combo (Commander, lay-line, and spell), for at best 8 mana in one turn (Can easily be 13 if you need to cast commander, or even 18 if you need the layline), that has to resolve with all three cards going off without a hitch . Meanwhile there plenty of 2 card combo with less interactions that cost way less that are legal in Commander. The classic Demonic Consultation + Thassa's Oracle combo require at least one of your opponents to have a counter spell, otherwise you win instantly for a black and two blue. You cant even kill Thassa in this combo, since it an ETB, where you can easily kill the creature on the board that allowing Coalation victory.
Yeah best you can do is stifle the triggered ability of oracle, but how many people are running stifle effects in EDH not many. I think you meant to say a black and 2 blue too since consult is B and oracle UU.
@@dstreetz91 Thanks for noticing the incorrect mana. I fix it on the og post.
Turn 3 Win with Coalition Victory: Leyline of the Guildpact, Bloom Tender, Any 3 Lands, Coalition Victory. There are ways to even speed it up beyond that. Plus there is an abundance of redundancies for basically every component that still set up rather consistent/easy turn 5 or 6 wins. Prismatic Omen, Dryad of the Illysian Grove, Nylea's Presence as redundancies for the "All Basic Land Types" condition (not to mention that even fetching 2 Tri-lands easily provides all 5 Basic Land Types). Then there is stuff like Fallaji Wayfarer and Transguild Courier that make getting a permanent of all colors easy. We have tutors like Beseech the Mirror that can put Leyline of the Guildpact directly into play for the Bargain. Bloom Tender's mana acceleration has redundancies with Faeburrow Elder and to a lesser extent with Jegantha the Wellspring in the command zone. They are also now a bunch of free counterspells with Force of Will, Force of Negation, Pact of Negation, Fierce Guardianship. There are also a bunch of good/viable tutors now.
Like, if you actually wanted to build that deck, it is SO EASY to accomplish now. Arguably dozens of times easier than when Coalition Victory was banned. Sure, there are other combos can win just as quickly, but few of them have so many points of redundancy and so little opportunity cost to add into a deck. Plus, if someone blocks the combo, you don't straight up lose the game on a countered Coalition Victory like you would with a Stifled Thassa's Oracle + Demonic Consultation combo. You can just Eternal Witness or regrowth (or the dozens of other cards that do the same thing) to get back the pieces. You can even just play a completely standard 5 color good stuff strategy that tries to win by spamming card value with how pushed multi-colored card design has been within the last decard, and it all would be viable within the deck because cards like Dryad of the Illysian Grove, Leyline of the Guildpact, Bloom Tender, Fallaji Wayfarer, etc are just good cards in their own right so you aren't just playing random jank, with Coalition Victory being a random "Do I win?" button inside the deck.
It just requires so little effort to make it viable inside of a 5 color deck. Many of the cards that make it work best are just cards you are likely to want to be playing in a 5 color deck anyways. The addition of Coalition Victory just makes those decks have a top deck that can just instantly win the game sometimes without them even needing to do anything particularly special. You will often just naturally have the board state that meets the conditions for Coalition Victory so it becomes a 1 card "combo" off the top of your deck.
Edit - Forgot that Coalition Victory requires creatures of all colors, so it would also need something like Fallaji Wayfarer or Transguild Courier. I suppose that makes it slightly slower and easier to disrupt, but my point still largely stands that it could just be put into certain 5 color decks as a "I drew this card and just instantly won" sort of thing, because there are 5 color decks that will just naturally have a board state with all basic land types and creatures of all colors even with only 3-4 lands in play and 2-3 creatures in play. And at that point it is just a 1 card "Win the game" if the table goes shields down not expecting you to top deck it.
@Morkins324 the problem with that is that coalition victory is not the only oops i win in the format there are plenty of 2 card infinites in commander where one of the pieces is a commander (Heliod sun crowned+ Walking ballista being a big one) where the other piece basically becomes an i win button
Splinter twin is easier to win with than coalition victory.
so i had a thought, whats worse: someone casting sway of the stars or someone casting worldfire?
not arguing the ban on Sway, im just curious if an unbanned card thats sorta similar to sway has the same vibe around the table.
Sway of the Stars.
At least with Worldfire the only thing I need to do as the caster is setup some method so each of my opponent's on their turn takes 1 damage. Like an easy way you can seal a game with Worldfire is Chandra Awakened Inferno. As she creates an emblem for each opponent that deals 1 damage to them at the beginning of their turn. But there is other methods to do that, like if your commander is Zurgo Bellstrker and you floated 10 mana, you could cast Worldfire then cast Zurgo who is a 2/2 for R.
With Sway of the Stars you would need to do that but for 7 life for each opponent. Its like if you armageddon the board, but you don't have a way to end the game.
Mass land destruction shouldn't ever be banned. It's the one thing keeping green and land decks in check.
Super late to this but from the perspective of cedh gifts makes a big difference compared to intuition, you can assemble an underworld breach win combo with just gifts, with intuition you need to have 1 of the 4 combo pieces in hand. (Underworld Breach, Brain Freeze, Lion's Eye Diamond and Sevinne's Reclamation, regardless of which 2 of these 4 get sent to the graveyard if you have enough mana and a handful of other cards in your graveyard you can assemble a win) This may seem a bit specific but Breach combos are some of the most reliable ways to win for some of the best decks in the format.
Would love Rofellos coming off. Seems silly that its on there with some of the other stuff I've seen.
yeah, I think it would be strong, but for example Kinnan is probably stronger.
@@juliand.1147Kinnan is strong, but all Rofellos cares is that you make landdrops and it's probably a deck with only forests. Having 6 mana on turn 3 consistently because it would be your commander is pretty damn strong and if you add in ways to play more lands it can get sillier still. If it was only played as a card in the 99 yeah not too strong and certainly worse than sol ring, but sol ring has deserved to be banned forever.
@@dstreetz91 I can see that Rofellos is stronger when you don't tune the 99, as making use of his ability is easier. On the other hand almost all Kinnan decks include very many ramp pieces that work with Kinnan. I think that such a tuned Kinnan deck is stonger than Rofellos by a good margin. Firstly because Kinnan has draw in the form of the activated ability. Secondly because Kinnan has blue, thereby counters and just more options for cards.
Also yes Sol Ring and Mana Crypt totally should be banned.
@@juliand.1147 As someone who did play with Rofellos when he was a commander, he was very strong for his day. Also your not factoring in one of the things about Rofellos. He is budget friendly and would more likely be played over Kinnan by casual players. You can realistically build a good Rofellos deck for easily under a $100, and that is not factoring the price of Rofellos himself or the forests.
Plus since commander is a casual format, the player of a tuned Kinnan deck would be very likely asked to tune down their deck or swap to a different deck. Rofellos is that but on a budget.
As once you reach about 6 lands, you can cast most spells with Rofellos that are 12 mana or less. Like if you cast a rampant growth on turn 2, you can bring down a Blightsteel Colossus on turn 5 with Rofellos, assuming you made each of your mana drops.
EDH should have restricted banlist for commanders like dual commander.
Rofellos is fine in the 99 but very broken as a commander.
personally, an 8 mana sorcery wincon is perfectly fine. they unbanned wildfires a ways back, unban the others
I feel like Dockside, Bowmaster, and The One Ring have the same play pattern as Primeval Titan.. people trying to steal, clone, copy the trigger, reanimate etc.
True the main difference is that each of these cards is providing a massive amount of equity for wotc right now so they won't ban them anytime soon
Put 'em on the list, but remove the list for cedh
@@Hakaze See. I like this idea. I think cedh needs its own list, 'cause the differences between casual play and cedh are so great that they're practically completely different formats.
The One ring is dangerous. I've killed myself with it before😂
@@Sona_Buvelleyou can make a separate banlist and say it's for cEDH, but that doesn't mean cEDH players will use it. Pretty much all cEDH players have said they would ignore any attempt to separate the format and just follow whatever the main banlist is. Because cEDH isn't a format, anymore than tournament Modern and kitchen table Modern are different formats, it's just playing the format in a competitively optimal way.
The EDH Ban List is just cards that /can/ do well in Timmy-level playgroups, but would either be slow/clunky in higher-level play.
Or, in the case of Flash, just being as degenerate as ThOracle/Demonic Consul in cEDH - a completely different format that deserves a separate ban list.
Cards like Crusade and Invoke Prejudice aren't problems. I would run Crusade solely because I like the Elspeth Dual Deck art. Just rename most of those cards and make some new art. Invoke Prej is just a really good stax piece.
The difference between Armageddon and Wrath of God is that it's a lot easier to repopulate your board with creatures than it is to recover lands. Aside from that, the usual play pattern with Armageddon is to play a big combo or set up a value engine, then nuke everyone's lands so they cant break your board on their turns, leaving the person who played Armageddon WAAAAY out in the lead.
Armageddon was a go to card for me back in the Day. My first deck I made was an Elves/Red Deck (1999). Get enough Llanowar Elves and such out there that can be Mana...Armageddon everything and watch your opponent cry. I didn't even care if I won, I just wanted games to go long enough to Armageddon it all.
A perfect example for mass land destruction, in the actual ban list, is Balance. However, in a format so wide and articulated, the less cards are on the ban list, the better: the answer to each and every issue are all right there. At most, we could think about UNbans, but not bans (example: if Rhystic is considered an issue - and it's not - , just unban Hullbreacher). For the cEDH end of the meta, people WANT to play with powerful cards that you can use only in this format, it's the point to come across that meta; for the Casuals, is it possible to manage ANY issues just with the rule 0; so, there's really zero reason to take these efforts.
They should ban all of the reserved list cards by default.
Man I’d love a functional reprint of Invoke prejudice. New art and change of name.
Just play the original. The fact that it`s banned from official play doesn`t mean it`s banned in your casual play. The sjw-bans which Invoke was part of didn`t make sense for half the cards anyway. I`m totally on board with not printing stuff like Invoke nowadays but it`s simply a piece of it`s time that in terms of functionality inside the MtG-context is still only represented on 2 cards total the other beeing Nethervoid
@@zirilan3398exactly. Banning "jihad" and "crusade" just for the words... is absolutely ridiculous.
Stop hiring "sensitivity readers"
@@zirilan3398 No, they all make a lot of sense as to why they're banned
@@zirilan3398 alright boys, here is the racist
@@Duskstone89 so why isn`t Hellfire on he list as well?
My Chulane deck wants Limited Resources so bad. If i could have one card of the banned list I'd be sweating between that and Leovold back as my commander.
i will say part of the issue with recurring nightmare is that it is a bitch and a half to actually interact with because bouncing it is a part of the cost to activate the ability,
Most EDH players don't actually understand how the rules work so they don't get why Nightmare is banned lol.
I mean, Sensei's Divining Top is similarly agitating to interact with - and it is easily one of the most irritating cards to play against because of how it creates exponentially more decision points in a game.
@MadMage86 the thing with top is that in most decks top is just annoying rather than an overpowered card. Top does have powerful synergies but Recurring nightmare does more for more decks because almost every black deck would love that kind of effect to be able to repeatedly get value creatures and fatties back from the yard. In effect Recurring nightmare can help close the game by itself top is outside of combos mostly just time consuming
You can still remove everything else required for it to work.
@@spearhead2054 which unless it is mass exile they can just get back as soon as they have a creature. in order to deal with a recurring nightmare you need to destroy or exile all creatures hope none of them leave tokens and then destroy nightmare ore rip it from their hand after they bounce it.
This was an excellent walkthrough. I see so many people hating on the banlist without understanding the rationalizations behind most of the entries (and omissions). Nearly all of your reasoning was exactly how I understand it. And glad to see some love for Gifts, I'd love to see that off the banlist for LftL setups.
I will say that I don't think Tabernacle is a problem, since you mentioned it a couple times. I do own one so I guess I'm biased, but I also own a library and I think library makes way more sense to keep banned. Library can go into a TON of decks, basically every control deck I've ever built would want it, and that create a P2W situation. Tabernacle is a great card, but it's also pretty niche by comparison, plus it's mechanically stax, which people rarely play unless they're playing cEDH or nearly so. So it only creates bad P2W vibes for people who are largely outside the target audience of the banlist, and only for certain decks.
I have a 5C Matters deck with Ramos, Dragon Engine as a commander. Coalition Victory would be so incredibly easy to win with and anti-climactic in my Ramos deck that I wouldn't want to put it in even if it WAS legal. The card would be unbelievably lame in 5C commander decks.
You say incredibly easy but it's an 8 mana sorcery that can be interacted with by somebody killing a creature that has a color you need or simply countering it. Color identity doesn't do anything for it so not even Ramos helps get the condition. A swords on your only red pip or any counterspell and you've blown most of your turn doing nothing.
Invoke prejudices effect seems good. Maybe make a new card with different name and art with same effect. I’d love to run a control effect like that
The commander play list is a joke. What is and more importantly, what isn’t ban is laughingly inconsistent. So my playgroup just doesn’t follow it.
We kinda just throw random jank and bulk into a deck and grind a few games when we aren’t playing legacy or modern. It’s an amazing time when you play commander how it’s suppose to be played. Causally, with random bulk you have lying around. When WOTC started to monetize and capitalize on commander is when I stopped playing it as much. It really is ruining the format and to a certain extent the game.
I have one of the banned-for-sensitivity cards that got reprinted in a precon with new art, specifically the Elspeth vs Tezzeret version of Crusade. Other than it being a 2 mana anthem, I don't see what's wrong with that specific version and have permission to rule zero it into my monowhite soldiers.
I have no such objections about not being allowed to use my Tolarian Academy in Esper.
That one needs a functional reprint. They banned the OG so they don't have to worry about people playing 2 or 8 of the same thing.
@@data_abortTo be fair, instrad of a functional reprint there have been a few cards that are just better. Honor of the Pure is a less restrictive casting cost and is one sided. The more recent Flowering of the White Tree is also just better.
@@someguy1ification That's fair. I dunno why people want to play it. I have heard people say that they do or did tho.
I had Iona in my Kaalia deck for ages. Was surprised they took so long to ban her, and that at the end of the day they only banned her because they didn’t want the degeneracy of her and Painter’s Servant being legal at the same time.
As sad as I was to see her go, I was happy I could slot PS into my Teysa deck for utter nonsense.
One of the first games I played of EDH had an Erayo deck at the table. There were 11 people. Erayo won the first game in about 20 minutes, so three turns. Next game we all killed that guy immediately and then played for 12 more hours in one game. Best game of magic I've ever played. Never again though.
The very-real thing you're describing where the real ban list isn't the ban list but rather some vague and inconsistent idea of what's obnoxious is one of the things that made it so hard to get into commander for me (despite many attempts ~10 years ago as casual Magic was shifting to 100% commander). I've barely played Magic since then and not entirely sure why I watched this video but I found it very validating!
I find it interesting how Gaea's Cradle is upwards of $600 but Growing Rites of Itlimoc is under $3 even though Growing Rites gets you a land in hand and under the right circumstances, flips into a slightly better version of Gaea's Cradle. I get that it's 3 mana for 1 land with only a slight upgrade in that it's still useful with zero creatures on board, but still.
Growing Rights is significantly worse than Cradle - you don't get to use it the turn it comes in. It's an end step trigger.
Massive downgrade.
Cradle is Reserve List, and can't be reprinted. That's a large pat of the price.
Coalition Victory is weaker as printed than your suggested end step trigger. Coalition Victory checks on resolution once, were as your version would check on end step presumably multiple times. As you alternatively suggested, an upkeep trigger would be weaker, however, as you'd paint a big flag that says "Kill me."
There really are cards that SHOULD be on the banlist, but aren’t because of…dumb reasons. Meanwhile some cards are on the banlist when they shouldn’t be 😂 Though I may be biased for my Pirates
You can have hullbreacher but then I'm gonna play mine and cast wheel of fortune
Gifts ungiven is very very powerful when you target player A, right after player B puts him out of contention for winning. I kind of get the ban, though i would like to see it backj.
funny rules interaction (correct me if wrong) i believe as it enters the gy you can respond to that trigger that shuffles it to deck with a instant reanimator it wont get the cast benefits but oh no anyway yeh (yes this applies to all the big eldrazis) also storm the vault is a 4 mana transform fair tolerian academy .
Invoke prejudice is required in all decks in our play group.
I think the only card on the list I have a problem with is Gifts Ungiven. Having played against it in Limited 1v1 games I feel like in Commander it will either take forever and a day to resolve as the player tries to find what silver bullets they want and ways to ensure they get them, or functionally (or literally) ends the game on the spot when they get an impossible pile like the Unburial Rites example. That said, either Intuition needs banning or Gifts needs unbanning. Gifts is of course better due to being "up to 4 cards" but Intuition is so prohibitively expensive that it's functionally banned in no-proxy environments and the effects of both cards are too similar for them to be on opposites sides of a ban.
All in all though I would love for everything to be unbanned and the list started over while reinstating "banned as commander" as an option, and use hard bans instead of "signpost" bans.
I always felt like the banlist wasn’t looked at enough power creep exists so some of that old stuff should be able to come off.
Kinda agree about 4 color decks in constructed, but I do love them in draft because you really have to work for it!
To me, cards like Esper Sentinel, Smothering Tithe and Rhystic Study are prime ban targets. They either massively advantage one player or restrict the rest of the table and they require no investment or setup. Absolutely groan inducing for me. At least Mystic Remora has a cumulative upkeep.
My pod has an aversion to Rule 0. So I Started playing a R/U land destruction deck. Fuck it.
I really like the idea of Coalition Victory, but the problem like you said is triomes, tap duals, and especially Leyline now. I'd love to see a retrain though to upkeep or end step on an enchantment or artifact, something. The flavour is great, it's just the execution isn't at all in line with the current state of the game. I'd say the same for banning pieces of Thoracle if there was the support for it too. There's a lot of "win from nowhere" feelsbad where the answer is effectively just "play blue".
Personally I wouldn't balk at Cradle banning either for accessibility's sake, ditto the OG duals, but on their face none of those are THAT bad. I'm not actively pushing for their banning, I just wouldn't lose sleep either.
Ante is like pogs with that poison slammer. 😂😂
A ban list for commander is like playing competitive Pokemon video games
Not even remotely similar.
I love Prophet of Krupix so much. I also love Leovold...
Maybe that says something about me as a person...
I truly don't understand the purpose of the committee that's in charge of these things like the banlist. All they ever seem to do is announce they will do nothing and then justify it by saying it's casual so you can rule 0 and then also ask the question I hate which is "if we unban 'x' what does it add to the game" and the reason I hate that question is it just feels like it's in bad faith because just about every card in Magic has a use for someone.
Fastbond is way too good in landfall decks where you can ignore the 1 life through a 1 cost creature and proceed to combo win on turn 1 with the help of bounce lands and Amulet of Vigor.
I, frankly, don't see how me assembling a bunch of mana dorks and a beast whisperer, playing paradox engine and casting my whole deck is any more ban worthy than playing a couple cost reducers and Jhoira to draw my pile of practically 99 mana rocks.
I don't play Jhoira in fun casual matches. I let people know it will likely lead to a turn or two of solitaire. Sometimes, people are into watching something cool come together, so I do play it from time to time, especially when my students make a plan to all gang up on me to take down my "most powerful" deck. If I could play Paradox Engine, if treat it the same. An awesome card for awesome moments.
Instead, the only time I've played it in commander was when I'd finally built a deck that I thought might be able to pull off a win against my pod, which had far more years of experience and much deeper pockets than I did. When I played the Engine and knew I could win that turn, it was exhilarating. When I was told that's a banned card, it was embarrassing. When they let me play it anyways, and I "only won because I didn't know the rules", it cheapened all my work and careful planning to get to the point where I could swing for lethal. The ban list ruined my first EDH win, and I can never have that back.
My opinion on bans in commander is that if a card repeatedly leads to games that end with 3/4 of the table sighing and shuffling after a boring and anticlimactic win of the 4th player, maybe that card isn’t perfect for the format
I hope for MH3 or a future commander product we get a version of Karakas that can only target your own legendary creatures as a cool utility land.
Limited resources, upheaval, balance, sundering Titan, Sylvan primordial
All cards that blow up lands on the banned list
The only thing i really disagree with is panoptic mirror. Everyone cries about tine warp panoptic mirror but a 10 mana two card combo at sorcery speed that does nothing until your opponents all get an entire turn to respond does not seem like a problem to me. It feels like that one is on the ban list because no one ever thought too hard about it
The lack of Devoid mentioned against Iona makes me sad.
Doggy bitten magic cards should a Milk Daddy Patreon tier.
*Thanks for the Content!*
I can't agree with gifts and nightmare.the reason those two are banned is that so long as you know how to play with them, those cards have zero counterplay aside from counter spells
😂 "it's like farewell if farewell walked your house and kicked your dog" I'm dying!😂
I only play with friends and we just set our own rules, banlist and that so these topics never really matter to me. But I always find it funny when people get so heated about a banlist it's like ya know you can play it amongst others who don't care to follow it or play with those who do. What a simple solve.
The ban list just doesn't address what people who want to play High Power but Not CEDH. The committee needs to realize a lot of people don't want to durdle up for a few turns before doing anything while the also don't wanna play several rocks over the first few turns while contemplating whether or not they should kill the Tyma or the combo piece, or it's safe to cast their own.
If lutri is a problem for being an extra free card outside the 99. Then it should be applied to other companions. I find it ridiculous since they're supposed to be ein the sideboard. (Commander doesn't have a sideboard)
The ban list is weird because inherently a casual format shouldn't need banned cards. Ideally each playgroup would just come up with their own list for their own pod. The problem arises when ppl want to play at LGS or Conventions with others they've never met. Here it can be a good tool but is ultimately not enough so rule 0 talks should still take place. Imo we should all see the ban list more as a suggestion than anything else and ideally there would be multiple sets of ban lists for CEDH and casual or those that ban certain strategies. That way even at Conventions you could simply say "hey lets play with ban list xy" and everyone would know if their decks would be legal for that.
I think the idea behind Chaos Orb/ Falling Star being banned is not just because they are stupid silver border effects, but that everyone should be able to play magic regardless of physical disabilities, and I can get behind that
Still, if someone tells me they have a chaos orb in their deck, I'm giving them a thumbs up
Library of Alexandria being banned makes me kind of wish Mishra's Workshop were banned, even if workshop is really fun on MTGO where you can actually get a copy
I want to know what you think of Approach of the second sun. Like Coalition Victory, it is a Sorcery that can win the game, although not as sudden as the Victory.
In most circumstances you can very much see it coming.
I was playing commander during the short period Sylvan Primodial was legal and one guy was Entomb + Exhuming it turn 2. That was a bit of an awkward time when commander was new and growing and WotC wasn't designing around it
I remember playing it with Conjurer's Closet. It was not fun. Even for me, I felt dirty for having them out at the same time.
I think with all the mechanics these days with the interaction with lands... we definitely need mass land removal.
23:12 I am with you on the four and five colors thing. The game is based on the idea of restrictions. If you play a two-color deck, your mana is better and allows you to play cards with more “devotion” to that color. The downside of multi-colored cards was that they were harder to cast. However, with the popularity of Commander, the downside is now the upside. This also goes for being legendary. A card should not be BETTER by being legendary.
Yeah well Karakas messes with that calculus too. Someone was just mentioning its ban.
I can’t understand why mind slaver isn’t banned. It’s my number one feel bad card in existence. I don’t play for 30 minutes and have to have someone else’s hands all over my cards playing my deck as poorly as they can. And it’s only one player so it’s not like it comes close to ending the game for anyone but one player.
Why is Sway of the Stars banned but Worldfire isn't?
Simple. One ends games and one prolongs it.
I'm sweating as i use Armageddon, wrath of God and tefari's proc in my knights commander deck
Primeval Titan pales in comparison to dockside, and Sheldon Menery admits that it warps games it's in, but says it's not banned since it only affects more competitive pods. But let's be honest, it's a money thing, and neither he nor the RC/CAG would hit dockside with a ban and have Wotc lose such high reprint equity.
Vince you play a Cradle in some of your decks would you rule zero and let someone play a Tolarian Academy?
As an outsider fuck nooo cradle is strong academy is absolutly bonkers
I think 3 colors is best. I hate that my doctors tribal deck is forced to be 4 colors especially because all the green doctors shouldn't be green. None of them make sense as green.
I think Farewell is fine because you have a choice, if its was choose all modes no matter what, that's a different story.
The Iona banning was just a clear example of their incompetence, they banned it so someone on the committee could get to play with painters servant again
11:30 I also thought it was named after Smokestack but apparently that's only partly true. Stax derived its name from the original nickname, $T4KS. The 4 Thousand Dollar Solution. There's a bit of history to it, so I'd recommend doing some research. Could be nice, free content.
I think that if Yawgmoth's Bargain (4BB) is banned but necropotence isn't (2B), then Yawg's Bargain should be legal
What？
My group unbanned sundering Titan. With how many non basics in the format it really doesn’t do too much unless Yavimaya, Urborg or Duals are in play. Far better things you could doing for the investment
Definitely agree, it does work at removing a lot of degenerate things from the game. The ban list isn't perfect and has plenty of cards that should be on it/taken off it, that being said thoracle combo needs to go. And maybe dockside... even tho I think red needs it, it's pretty dumb.
Unban Lutri, declare that he is unable to be used as a Companion due to the ease of use for Commander (basically the inverse of the U/W Bird who's Companion rule is to have 20 extra cards in the deck)
4 colors decks indeed are stupid. But I think 5 colors are valid IN SPECIFIC CASES. Like Slivers, or shrines, for example.
Justice for Lutri. Let her be in the 99 Wizards
i feel like invoke prejudice should get a reprint in the form of a new card with a different name and art but same cost and ability since it’s a really cool counter effect that i would love to use in a control deck but without the racist implications you know?
If Griselbrand and Yawgmoth's bargain are banned, why is Atraxa allowed in the format?
Because they are very, very different effects in a 40 life format.
If you ban Gaea’s Cradle then you have to ban Serra’s Sanctum too.
also yes, the color pie is important, that's why i eat the whole thing
New player hear only got 4 games total that invoke p card actually has a cool effect what alternative are there that do that kind of thing? Before anyone says anything I am literally playing against a group that everyone has infinite combos and one plays humans that gain like every keyword and like 200 attack and has multiple combats a turn 😢
Protean Hulk should never have been unbanned
I really want to build a "big dick energy" deck that is built around hard casting those rediculous 8-10 cmc spells just for the hell of it.
Personally if i were in a game and my opponent actually pulled off one of those spells I'd laugh and say GG, they dont need to be banned
I think the argument against a card like Armageddon, is essentially the same as the argument against a card like Farewell - feels miserable to be on the receiving side of, and is only a fine play pattern, if the player using it does so as a part of an efficient win-condition. Players who use either as a stall tactic are the problem, not the cards themselves. No one wants a game that was gonna last 45 minutes to last 2 hours because someone cast a single card that essentially reset the game.
I want a new griselbrand thats commander legal. Not the ability, the character for a leliana theme deck.
I don't get the Coalition Victory argument. Depending on a board state it can be hosed by a simple spot removal spell. It also can be hosed by Platinum Angel type effects or removed from the stack. It's unreliable as hell and needs protection in a pod with interaction.
In a battle cruiser pod with four Timmies at the table it is stupid, but the moment pod starts using interaction - it's very situational
Edit: Erayo is another extremly stupid ban. All you need is a way to double the amount of loyalty counters Planeswalkers get on the ETB and Jace, Unraveler of Secrets and BAM you have an unremoveable Erayo effect by using only TWO cards. And it's legal.....
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH
No, Erayo is not a stupid ban. I played when she was legal, built many decks with her, faced off against many.
First, you're trying to mimic her power with with a specific card. Erayo doesn't need specific cards. Your opponents cards even help you out. You just play the game as normal and you flip her. The speed at which an Erayo deck would flip it was always that turn.
2nd, she's only a two mana investment. Far cheaper than the combo you trying to put down. Combined with the fact that she counts your opponents' spells played as well as itself and I'm sure you can see how her speed is just disgusting.
Third, this was over 10 years ago. The game has become even more explosive. More powerful ramp, rituals, free interaction and card draw. She is not a card that has been power crept at all. Erayo only gets finer over the years.
Lastly, you can easily flip her in response to removal, most likely nullifying said removal as she turns into a enchantment. In addition, since she's a creature and not a planeswalker, returning her for more tries is always a possibility and easier than your Jace.
When it comes to the monetary cost of cards, I'm of mixed feelings. On the one hand, I fully support proxies, provided that no one tries to sell them pretending they're real cards. However, given the RC's link to WOTC I can understand why they can't officially condone that, and therefore feel the need to speak up about expensive cards. But at the same time, if everyone is allowed to proxy and knows what they're getting into, I don't see a problem with proxying expensive cards. It's a tough topic for the RC because they're not employed by WOTC, but they do have to maintain a working relationship. I guess this is what Rule 0 is for, but I can see the issues here.
Shoutout to @JakenJoelAreMagic for the Farewell mention
Gotta disagree with the coalition Victory argument. It's hard to pull off than demonic consultation+thassa oracle and that's still allowed plus even when it works, the result is everyone shuffles and plays a new game of magic. I feel like too many players feel like losing a game of magic is a big deal and a personal attack. Or that if someone else wins they didn't deserve the victory because of some wacky reason that only makes sense to them. You got a land type of each type, creatures of all 5 colors, and resolved an 8 mana card. All that is a lot to jump though to win. Congrats. Now shuffle and see who goes first in the next game. That card is so much easier to disrupt than throacle but if it wins it wins. At least with biorythm I can see a board where one guy is ahead on cards and mana but no creatures. So the green player resolves it and only one player does. Now they have to sit there and watch as the rest of the game goes on. With throacle and co Victory people just move into a new game of magic
Well i took golos and threw in all the bad old dragons.
Its Futusight Scion now, but it was fun to jsut slam some realy bad dragons down and slap some ppl.
They need to either be more consistent or just leave at this point! People get salty Because there is no consistency.
I wish it was Clear Cut rules
Cards under 4 mana that can make more mana then you put in - banned
Cards under 4 mana that destroy multiple Land - banned
Commanders that have any possibility to win the game if you cast it when you have Have 0 cards in hand no noland permanents on field nothing in your graveyard. And just enough mana to use the ability once!
Simple rules that when it comes out you can read it and be like that will be banned
So Erayo is banned, but Jin Gitaxis Progress Tyrant is not because it’s a slightly powered down creature version… yeah okay
I did win a game last week with insurrection and city on fire. It was cool. But if I didn’t make that play. We were all dead the next round
Imagine turn 1 jeweled lotus into braids, I'm good on braids
If someone wins the game cause they cast an 8 mana sorcery speed spell that requires a permanent in play, they deserve to win. Play more removal and/or more counter magic, or be ok with losing games
Invoke prejudice doesn't picture KKK members in its art, as per the art director of the time and the artist himself the art is inspired by/depicts the spanish inquisition.
The real perk of the ante cards was they removed themselves from your deck if you aren't playing for ante.
Coalition Victory and Biorythm should both be unbanned. Coalition Victory is the easier case; it checks on resolution. Every color has cheap, instant-speed interaction available to stop it. It is easier to stop than Insurrection. 3WUBRG is a silly, restrictive cost.
The broader issue is that the banned list presents a conundrum. Cards that slow things down but don't win are frowned upon. Ok, that makes sense. Cards that win out of nowhere like Flash are banned, ok, sure. But to me that points to cards that win decisively with proper setup. But now we're banning some of those? But we're banning Biorythm, which requires you to have things and your opponents to not have things and not banning Insurrection which requires your opponents to have things but doesn't care what you have? One of those is far more of a win from nowhere card and it's not the one that's banned. Winning with Craterhoof requires less setup than winning with Biorythm does, to say nothing of Lab Man or Thoracle.