You are the first guy I’ve found in a long time who isn’t just recycling what everyone else has been saying but actually giving new audio knowledge. Respect
100% the most honest person when it comes to talking about mixing and mastering, it’s not about telling us “this is the last eq move you’ll ever need”, or “ you need this plugin to get good mix’s”. You rely on actual science and practical means to show us what steps we can take to make a good mix/master
This knocked my socks off! When you demonstrated what is happening with signal processing speed vs wavelength - never thought about it before but it makes perfect sense, logically and audibly. Thank you. You really increased my understanding in a meaningful way.
holy crap - so nice to see a mixer have exactly what they want to achieve in mind, talk through the thought clearly and pull up the precisely right processing tool to execute as you're describing it. beautiful vid man.
I began falling down the rabbit hole of thinking I need hardware to mix and master. While tools are nice, knowledge is much more helpful. Thank you for this.
Command clicking on the tracks volume display changes it to peak measurement. This is useful if you don't want to open an analyzer to find the fundamentals peak amplitude.
It’s so refreshing to see someone posting videos who can explain the science and demonstrate the application. Outstanding work, glad I came across this, I’ll be binging this channel in the coming days!
I wanted to tell you that you made things a little bit more complicated with this approach. But after watching the whole video, your tips are actually very helpful. Especially if someone struggles with having the low end sit in the mix well. Thank you!
Finally! After countless attempts to understand this specific scenariao on YT, I think yours was the lesson that flicked the switch in my (sometimes lazy) mind, and I 'm now much, much closer to working this all out.
WOW, OMG... Thank you for taking the time to post this. I had no idea that the attack and release time on compression could introduce or take away harmonics. Really great video!
Wow it’s great that you’re explaining the “why” behind these issues. So many people are just sharing “recipes” but deep understanding requires much more than a recipe, and takes you a lot further. Keep it up! I just wish the music was hard techno! 😂
(12:15) anybody else start singing Cher? “ do you believe in love after all… I can feel something inside me say I really don’t think you’re strong enough” 😂😂😂😂
no matter all your fancy numerical calculations or algorithims....what is ultimately important is that your kick not sound like it has snare-tap on each and every hit.
Appreciate the shoutout. While we all eagerly wrote your new equation on a post-it note in our studio, at 4:19 you seem to recommend against compression for low end now that we know how to set compressors to not introduce harmonics AND keep the punch. Maybe you can provide some clarity there?
Mixing context and mastering context Mixing context, i recommend against using compressors for leveling one note to the next (compressors can be used for tone/feel) Mastering context, to control the whole dynamics of the mix you’re working with a fullband signal not an isolated stem
Very good workflow! When you use LUFS to balance the loudness of each bass notes do you ever run into issues where different notes take different headroom? Since LUFS does a frequency dependent weighting Some of your bass notes would have to have a larger amplitude in order to hit the same LUFS. Maybe it’s not really noticeable difference, so just wanted to ask if you ever have to consider that for downstream processes that depend on peak amplitude such as saturation.
Was just about to type "mix with EQ".. and then it was done. And then i was just about to tell about phantom frequency.. and it was instantly explained. Very important concept when it comes to mixing bass. I'll give an example: With bass guitar the phantom frequency is very prominent, it is in fact true with all stringed instruments bass range: the fundamental frequency is not the loudest, but its harmonics are, mostly 2nd and 3rd are the loudest (and octave too, it is not loudest but as it sits closer to our more sensitive frequency range of our hearing, we hear it quite well). And when we go to something like low B, near 30Hz... there is little to nothing in that string itself of 30Hz, it is all above it and you should almost treat it like it is 60Hz source. If you want to get that 30Hz from a bass guitar: use bass synth, which is an effect, not a real synth. The idea is to create new frequencies that are not necessarily present in the input. Or you can add sine bass but then you HAVE to be tuned very well, to avoid disassociation between the bass guitar harmonics and the added fundamental. When done right it is practically invisible to ear. Synth bass doesn't have the same physical limitations, so they can have fundamental frequency be the loudest. So, keep this in mind with synth basses too, it can be very beneficial to attenuate the fundamental in the synth itself. Then you can double that part with sine bass and now you can control this relationship while mixing.
@@panorama_masteringThere is one piano with string lengths so long that it can produce the "right" harmonic series. Search for "the longest piano" to hear it. It is quite... plain sound, it isn't rich and complex like grand piano. The string length is what makes the difference in the bass range, if it can't form a full wave, those 2nd, 3rd and octave harmonics will start to dominate.
3:01 There is a more easy way. Acon Digital Dynamics does not introduce any harmonics from 20Hz to 20kHz in any configuration as long as the lookahead is >25ms.
Thank you for another great video. Quick question. When you're finding the perfect attack/release time for compressing bass, why do you divide 5000 over the frequency? What is that 5000? Thank you
Sometimes i put Soothe on the bass and dig into it just as much that the note with the weakest fundamental just tickles the graph. That way it should level them out to an equal volume. Basically doing something like the clip gaining, just automated.
9:07 Just in case you were looking at the right pane to guess the frequency range, you can look at the bottom where it says Low and High (before Range, Cursor, History) and there you have it :) [maybe you already knew this]
Loved seeing how you go through the painstaking effort in the editing process. The one thing I almost always notice in videos like this, though: the tracks start out sounding fantastic. I do really enjoy your channel so this is not all directed at you, but I sometimes think videos like this accidentally perpetuate this notion that mixing is so much more than it is. Like mixing is going to make our song sound like this, and I believe that for so long. I really had to step back and start reading between the lines to realize that it is like 90% the quality of the recorded tracks. Maybe your assistant worked some magic on some things before delivering to you, but it’s almost TOO easy when you’re mixing sampled kick and synth bass! Everything is already pretty darn consistent and there isn’t as much to learn as if we were mixing acoustic drums recorded in a bad space and a real, affordable bass guitar. These are just some thoughts. I don’t comment as often as I have something to say because people can be so rude online, but I thought this might resonate with some people. Anyways, seriously: thank you for your channel. You are doing good work and I know it’s not easy. Thank you.
Great video, thanks! Is it safe to assume the bass had already been sidechained to the kick? I thought sidechaining kick and bass (especially in the same frequency range) is pretty much always done, but I didn't see you do any in the video
Enjoyed your vid, great work! Its a lot simpler yet more complex. When you clip gained you introduced glitches at the joins...which is the danger of driving with your eyes... U didn't seem to notice. Clip gaining to perfection is like pitch correction...ironing the life out of it. Each kick has no natural variance, so now you are flattening the micro dynamics of it all. Fretting over 2db is teaching peeps mix by numbers...sure if that's what you want...but the real gift is closing your eyes and just feeling it. All those micro moves are the synergy of feel and perfect in the art of expression does not equal best. Great to show the science etc but the art has been lost in the myopics of perfection...a dangerous thing to teach and it took me 10 years to actually get it, really get it. It does spoil it though, reduced what I can listen to by about 60% the perfect pitch and perfectionism has replaced the humanity. Train, yes, the just feel it else you will go around in circles if you are writing, performing and then mixing as well. The simple rule is,
@@iam-music Hi, thanks for your detailed answer. Sounds interesting but I am not sure i understand you completely, if you feel like clarifying a little bit that would be cool. First with "spectral" do you mean using something that doesnt have a variable threshold, like a compressor does, rather works sprectraly like for instance Gulfoss or Soothe? Second, what do you mean we retain a lot of psychoacoustic details that trick us by using spectral processors? What do you mean by inducing a 20ms advance in the subs by using apropriate filters? Ducking was used in the old days to pocket the kick and bass, to make them sound like they are playing together in the groove, it had nothing to do with controling the subs. And the techniques used were completely the opposite than what everyone else is using today. The idea was to use the slower attack time on the sidechained compressor for the bass, and being the analog days of the SSL consoles, their slower attack time is around 30ms(dependent on the material). So, the inital transient of the bass would poke through those 30ms and would be in sync with the kick, because the kick would then duck the body of the bass. You get the initial transients of the kick and the snare happening at the same time and then the body of the bass gets lowered, solidifying the groove. Not a lot of gain reduction was used for this either, 1 to 3dB max. Today everybody uses the fastest attack possible and slams the gain reduction up to 12dB, which is something I guess originated in electronic music, but more as an effect. Applying that technique to say a rock track with live drums and bass is disastrous. So there are completely different kick to bass sidechaining techniques dependent on the genre and the effect you are going for. Also unrelated question: are you one of Mike's students? Whenever I hear "Cheers" at the end of the sentence I immediately think of him :)
@devianthousend Hehe...no not a Mike student. What you are saying is right in terms of what it does. TBH my trick is that I dont use the room sub to translate
How would you approach a track with an electric bass guitar or even synth bass that is busier and intentionally has dynamic variance built into the performance that grooves with the other instruments? I’m still trying I get to understand the manual bass volume leveling outside of avoiding adding 3rd order harmonics so it harmonizes better with the chords and other melodic parts. It was very cool to see and hear how the comp/limiter times can be calculated to match a frequency. I’ll even keep this in mind when I’m setting driven bass envelopes or VCAs in general for more or less 3rd order harmonics. Thank you!
It actually is. People who do this professionally are called audio engineers and I'm guessing Mr. Panorama Mastering is one of them if not producer or something else. All best
Some very good tips. Adding two observations. 1. Having your kick fundamental same level as your bass sub is something that very rarely happens and could be a trap for a beginner to follow blindly. Usually the kick fundamental sits between 3-7 db lower than the low Bass Sub fundamental when measured on a regular 6-8 LUFS master. I advise everyone to load their favorite records and measure on a spectrum analyzer. Having a loud kick fundamental not only changes the whole feel of the song but also can mess up your possibility of getting a loud mix in the end. Fast and loud transient on such a low frequency can lead to a big mess. Of course, there’s no rules, but this happens in 99% of pop, rap, dance current music. 2. Interesting leveling the bass notes like that through clip gain without also correlating with the actual spectrogram. You could have more high end or the harmonics could be at a different balance between each new notes and just by looking at the peak or rms measurement can result in notes that are inconsistent even if overall measured equally by RMS levels. I always like to load up Span, set it it highest resolution, have a secondary line just for the maximum level for each frequency and level by frequency automating an EQ, instead of looking just at the clip level overall.
Great share! RE: // 1 - This is just a starting point; the energy will almost always change; but it's always good to have a benchmark to start from so you know the point at which things are at equal energy; funilly enough I find more often that I've heard more commercial mixes with the fundamental of the kick louder; again this doesn't mean it's the CORRECT WAY; it's just a way to navigate and get your bearings; ultimately creative decisions win! // 2 - You're right the harmonics can change between one notes to the next; sometimes I'll cut the high and low notes onto two seperate channels so I can process the lower notes with more harmonic saturation and the higher ones with an EQ to help balance them
No hard and fast rule on this but most pros and my own Span measurements show the kicks hit harder than the bass to give it the punch. However it probably depends on genre.
So, do you never compress your bass? I've been using this thing called Dyn1 (very good, multi-band comp) for a while to compress my sub. Sounds powerful. Are harmonics that low really that damaging to a mix? One more thing: I suppose I can use a low pass on an SSL bus comp on the master to avoid/reduce these problems with the sub. How about a limiter? Wouldn't that create the same problem and be unavoidable? Anyway, sorry for all the questions and appreciate your videos/knowledge.
Wow, thanks for such valuable tips!! By the way, the Kirchhoff concept but as a compressor is just released. Can't be more excited about it considering the Kirchhoff EQ is a beast of a plugin. What about a review of it soon? Thanks man!
when you said "not sure whats going on here" it is the natural harmonic phase of the sinewave, which might be satured with odd harmonics but not going over Nyquist, that would be my first guess. ;)
Removing all dynamics from a naturally dynamic instrument (bass), removes the realism. It's almost universally accepted/objective that more dynamics sounds 'better' or more life-like when played loud-ish through decent speakers. This gives a closer impression to being at a concert, which most of us enjoy. The flipside being a squashed (loudness war casualty) master with most dynamics removed 'can' sound better through headphones, but through large speakers just sounds like headphones and introduces listener fatigue. I do appreciate the science of minimizing sub-frequency phase, which I'll use to keep my mixes more dynamic for my taste.
How did they do this in the analogue world? I listen to old Eminem, 50 Cent Records and the low end is super tight. They didnt have all those analytic tools ? Somebody from the old days here - lets say early 2000?
EDIT: What I said didn't mean to diminish Nicholas' methods, he is making great work and content and it works for him. IMHO, looking and detailing into analyzers is not the way... Having just a vu-meter or a Dorrough meter or something that shows average energy in a time window is about enough to determine if you have to much or too less energy in the low end and make the decisions, and having a spectrum analyzer showing a smoothed spectrum response is also enough, but not necessary, for sanity check.... Of course all of these meters should be used in correlation with the main analyzers we all have, our ears.
Feel ultimately wins; this was the science; and method to showcase the relative levels of the fundamentals and balance of them. This is just a benchmark to set up from; the FEEL of the record ultimately takes priority which you can deviate towards as you mix;
ok, but back than the bass wasn't very deep. they basically had only the kick down there. it wasn't such a collision like we have now in EDM and modern pop
So that's why when I do Dimebag whammy bar shit, it creates a really cool perception of a lower fundamental. You confirmed my theory.🤣This is sick! Thanks man!
So basically it went like this: 1. Suggested not to use compression because of THD induced. 2. Level automatization to get the same loudness. 3. As a result, bass sound farther in the mix (because absence of peaks generates that effect) 4. Increased lows in 1st layer of eq to get more loudness 5. Increased highs in 2nd layer of eq to get more perception of bass (highs are more dynamic, so more peaks and now this cancelled out the effect of point 2) and this will cause the bass to be closer in the mix 6. Distortion added to limit peaks previously added and also added character to the tone. So basically you just did a compression but manually.... Why to avoid compression (based on the argument of avoiding harmonics) if then you are adding harmonics at the end of your chain with eq and distortion?? Cancellation will be caused because same frequencies are being played at same levels but at different times. All you have to do it to avoid it is chose different fundamentals and your cancellation will be gone. Just create space with eq. +3dB 30 hz and -3db 60hz for Bass and the opposite for kick and that's it. I don't see the value of doing all those steps manually if you just combine eq (creating space) plus compression. Also while doing all those EQ adjustments, you didn't compensate the increase in loudness as per best practices (using VU meters to make sure the EQ change the tone of the instrument without increasing volume)
I think I've made the mistake of presenting this as a technique rather than a discussion around the mechanics of low-end; I get where you're coming from!
Oh man, I went YEARS without latching on to the bass level thing. As a synth guy, it's embarrassing. Of course when using a bass with a low pass filter, the higher notes will be quieter. Once I figured that out, the low end got a lot more consistent. My heavy handed solution was to limit the crap out of it. 🙃
I thought the bass sounded too quiet compared to the kick. The concept of matching fundamental frequency volumes seemed to make the balance worse to me.
A different perspective: For live performance, it was always a thing that some bass notes project while others dip. From multiple environments and venues, patterns emerged. So the old-school trick (at the time) was to modify note attack and note selection depending on the song's key. However if volume corrections are all done 'in post', then, over time, choices made by the bassist are partially lost on the band and completely lost on the audience. A new genre begins to form. (A distant WUB is heard echoing in the forest)
@@gregorsalsaif I understand him, the bassist is aware that certain notes project better, and chooses notes knowing this. When you perfectly level the bassline, you're removing this decision that the bassist made. I sort of agree, in that you should only edit maybe 50% of the way to level - leaving in some of the dynamics
Liked and subscribed, thank you for sharing your knowledge! One question though - you said that you were going to boost the kick's fundamental to match it with fundamental of the bass but you boosted the kick above the fundamental, at around 170. It worked but i want to understand why)
Me TOO! Always happy to fuck it up and have others help! My problem is with most maths I do is I fail to simplify the equations because I like to map out and logistically see how each variable contributes to solving the problem;
If you have three kicks to make the kick of a track. Will the sub and knock kicks always be out of phase no matter what I do? So many EDM pros use at least two kicks. Some use three, sub, knock, click.
It's too expensive. Melda do a cheaper one for a quarter of the price, so I'll demo that and see if it helps. Auto Align is usually for large sessions with big drum kits.@@panorama_mastering
This might be a stupid question but isn’t you auto leveling the bass completely removing the artists velocity dynamics? Or is velocity dynamics in the bass bad or is this a subjective thing?
Just for my understanding: where is this number 5000 coming from? I have to say your new game plan in terms of upload freq. is quite remakable and i hope it pays off on the long run.
8:02 I’m assuming copy pasting the pieces over only works if you already know the part is a perfect loop, yes? Otherwise you’d just be erasing any kind of evolving filtering or effects the producer put on that bassline. There’s gotta be a compressor out there that can do this without doing it manually. Mv2 perhaps?
Oh; absolutely correct; usually I'm stuck with the task of manually editing EVERY SINGLE NOTE! I don't think you'd want me to add 30 minutes of manual editing into a video ;)
I am a bit confused about the phantom fundamental thing: when you show it I definitely can hear the big difference. But you also said in other videos that pushing the highs of a mix lowers the perceived loudness of the bass and vice versa. Does this only apply to to a whole mix or did I get something wrong here?
You are the first guy I’ve found in a long time who isn’t just recycling what everyone else has been saying but actually giving new audio knowledge. Respect
Thanks man!
Look up “PIERRE BOURNE MIXING SAUCE + PROOF” thank me later
This is very true
100% the most honest person when it comes to talking about mixing and mastering, it’s not about telling us “this is the last eq move you’ll ever need”, or “ you need this plugin to get good mix’s”. You rely on actual science and practical means to show us what steps we can take to make a good mix/master
Nah this mid look up “PIERRE BOURNE MIXING SAUCE +PROOF” thank me later
This knocked my socks off! When you demonstrated what is happening with signal processing speed vs wavelength - never thought about it before but it makes perfect sense, logically and audibly. Thank you. You really increased my understanding in a meaningful way.
holy crap - so nice to see a mixer have exactly what they want to achieve in mind, talk through the thought clearly and pull up the precisely right processing tool to execute as you're describing it. beautiful vid man.
I began falling down the rabbit hole of thinking I need hardware to mix and master. While tools are nice, knowledge is much more helpful. Thank you for this.
Well said! Knowledge + practice = development
Look up “PIERRE BOURNE MIXING SAUCE + PROOF” thank me later
@@panorama_mastering I still wanna snag myself a nice little 500 series rack with some nice eq's and comps tho
Imo you only benefit from hardware if your mixes a great in digital. As long as there are things that need to be fixed hardware is useless.
@@ronson795 a lot of plugins sound better than hardware IMO I still think they can bring a character to your sound that's nice though.
Command clicking on the tracks volume display changes it to peak measurement. This is useful if you don't want to open an analyzer to find the fundamentals peak amplitude.
It’s so refreshing to see someone posting videos who can explain the science and demonstrate the application. Outstanding work, glad I came across this, I’ll be binging this channel in the coming days!
I wanted to tell you that you made things a little bit more complicated with this approach. But after watching the whole video, your tips are actually very helpful. Especially if someone struggles with having the low end sit in the mix well. Thank you!
My pleasure!
Finally! After countless attempts to understand this specific scenariao on YT, I think yours was the lesson that flicked the switch in my (sometimes lazy) mind, and I 'm now much, much closer to working this all out.
The best part of your videos is watching you jam to every track
And that's saying a lot since your videos are packed with info
Thank you
Thank you for showing us actual technique. This change the way I think about how individual instruments interact how a mix fits new together
My pleasure!
Thank you for your videos! Most channels just scratch the surface but from u I can always lean something even after 8+ years of prodcing
I was already familiar with the concept and this was such a fantastic demonstration that helped me understand this to a much better level, thanks!
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching
You really bring something new and valueable to the table. Much appreciated.
My pleasure!
WOW, OMG... Thank you for taking the time to post this. I had no idea that the attack and release time on compression could introduce or take away harmonics. Really great video!
My pleasure! Thanks for watching.
Wow it’s great that you’re explaining the “why” behind these issues. So many people are just sharing “recipes” but deep understanding requires much more than a recipe, and takes you a lot further. Keep it up!
I just wish the music was hard techno! 😂
(12:15) anybody else start singing Cher? “ do you believe in love after all… I can feel something inside me say I really don’t think you’re strong enough” 😂😂😂😂
one of the best videos about low frequencies so far. Congrats from brazil
Glad you think so!
no matter all your fancy numerical calculations or algorithims....what is ultimately important is that your kick
not sound like it has snare-tap on each and every hit.
Appreciate the shoutout.
While we all eagerly wrote your new equation on a post-it note in our studio, at 4:19 you seem to recommend against compression for low end now that we know how to set compressors to not introduce harmonics AND keep the punch. Maybe you can provide some clarity there?
Mixing context and mastering context
Mixing context, i recommend against using compressors for leveling one note to the next (compressors can be used for tone/feel)
Mastering context, to control the whole dynamics of the mix you’re working with a fullband signal not an isolated stem
Very good workflow! When you use LUFS to balance the loudness of each bass notes do you ever run into issues where different notes take different headroom? Since LUFS does a frequency dependent weighting Some of your bass notes would have to have a larger amplitude in order to hit the same LUFS. Maybe it’s not really noticeable difference, so just wanted to ask if you ever have to consider that for downstream processes that depend on peak amplitude such as saturation.
Was just about to type "mix with EQ".. and then it was done. And then i was just about to tell about phantom frequency.. and it was instantly explained. Very important concept when it comes to mixing bass.
I'll give an example: With bass guitar the phantom frequency is very prominent, it is in fact true with all stringed instruments bass range: the fundamental frequency is not the loudest, but its harmonics are, mostly 2nd and 3rd are the loudest (and octave too, it is not loudest but as it sits closer to our more sensitive frequency range of our hearing, we hear it quite well). And when we go to something like low B, near 30Hz... there is little to nothing in that string itself of 30Hz, it is all above it and you should almost treat it like it is 60Hz source. If you want to get that 30Hz from a bass guitar: use bass synth, which is an effect, not a real synth. The idea is to create new frequencies that are not necessarily present in the input. Or you can add sine bass but then you HAVE to be tuned very well, to avoid disassociation between the bass guitar harmonics and the added fundamental. When done right it is practically invisible to ear.
Synth bass doesn't have the same physical limitations, so they can have fundamental frequency be the loudest. So, keep this in mind with synth basses too, it can be very beneficial to attenuate the fundamental in the synth itself. Then you can double that part with sine bass and now you can control this relationship while mixing.
Amazing; thanks for sharing!
@@panorama_masteringThere is one piano with string lengths so long that it can produce the "right" harmonic series. Search for "the longest piano" to hear it. It is quite... plain sound, it isn't rich and complex like grand piano. The string length is what makes the difference in the bass range, if it can't form a full wave, those 2nd, 3rd and octave harmonics will start to dominate.
Can you please show this lesson with aucustic instruments as well?
Bloody fantastic!! Loving your channel Nick! Been doing this for 24 years and still picking up so much from your channel. Thank you
Bloody hell - that's how you do a youtube tutorial! 👏👏👏👏
Thanks for such a quality lesson
Glad you liked it! My pleasure!
3:01 There is a more easy way. Acon Digital Dynamics does not introduce any harmonics from 20Hz to 20kHz in any configuration as long as the lookahead is >25ms.
Interesting! I will look into it !
Thank you for another great video. Quick question. When you're finding the perfect attack/release time for compressing bass, why do you divide 5000 over the frequency? What is that 5000? Thank you
Sometimes i put Soothe on the bass and dig into it just as much that the note with the weakest fundamental just tickles the graph. That way it should level them out to an equal volume. Basically doing something like the clip gaining, just automated.
Awesome!
9:07 Just in case you were looking at the right pane to guess the frequency range, you can look at the bottom where it says Low and High (before Range, Cursor, History) and there you have it :) [maybe you already knew this]
Watching you nerd out on this was sooo fun to listen to and appreciate
Thanks man!
Loved seeing how you go through the painstaking effort in the editing process.
The one thing I almost always notice in videos like this, though: the tracks start out sounding fantastic.
I do really enjoy your channel so this is not all directed at you, but I sometimes think videos like this accidentally perpetuate this notion that mixing is so much more than it is. Like mixing is going to make our song sound like this, and I believe that for so long.
I really had to step back and start reading between the lines to realize that it is like 90% the quality of the recorded tracks.
Maybe your assistant worked some magic on some things before delivering to you, but it’s almost TOO easy when you’re mixing sampled kick and synth bass! Everything is already pretty darn consistent and there isn’t as much to learn as if we were mixing acoustic drums recorded in a bad space and a real, affordable bass guitar.
These are just some thoughts. I don’t comment as often as I have something to say because people can be so rude online, but I thought this might resonate with some people.
Anyways, seriously: thank you for your channel. You are doing good work and I know it’s not easy. Thank you.
Great share!!! Quality in = quality out!!
great video, i was able to really understand and comprehend everything you said and learned alot from it
Great to hear!
Do all your tracks have that DC offset?
Great video, thanks! Is it safe to assume the bass had already been sidechained to the kick? I thought sidechaining kick and bass (especially in the same frequency range) is pretty much always done, but I didn't see you do any in the video
Absolute W video the way you explain things is incredibly clear and easy to understand.
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent intelligent video. Thank you
Glad you enjoyed it!
That was really nice, thanks a lot for sharing. It makes so much sense go for the bass notes with loudness instead of actual volume.
Enjoyed your vid, great work! Its a lot simpler yet more complex. When you clip gained you introduced glitches at the joins...which is the danger of driving with your eyes... U didn't seem to notice.
Clip gaining to perfection is like pitch correction...ironing the life out of it. Each kick has no natural variance, so now you are flattening the micro dynamics of it all. Fretting over 2db is teaching peeps mix by numbers...sure if that's what you want...but the real gift is closing your eyes and just feeling it. All those micro moves are the synergy of feel and perfect in the art of expression does not equal best.
Great to show the science etc but the art has been lost in the myopics of perfection...a dangerous thing to teach and it took me 10 years to actually get it, really get it.
It does spoil it though, reduced what I can listen to by about 60% the perfect pitch and perfectionism has replaced the humanity.
Train, yes, the just feel it else you will go around in circles if you are writing, performing and then mixing as well.
The simple rule is,
What do you mean by "transients have a friend, spectral sidechaining?
@@devianthousend Hi, so if it is not beneficial to layer frequencies subject to fighting each other eg
@@iam-music Hi, thanks for your detailed answer. Sounds interesting but I am not sure i understand you completely, if you feel like clarifying a little bit that would be cool.
First with "spectral" do you mean using something that doesnt have a variable threshold, like a compressor does, rather works sprectraly like for instance Gulfoss or Soothe? Second, what do you mean we retain a lot of psychoacoustic details that trick us by using spectral processors?
What do you mean by inducing a 20ms advance in the subs by using apropriate filters?
Ducking was used in the old days to pocket the kick and bass, to make them sound like they are playing together in the groove, it had nothing to do with controling the subs. And the techniques used were completely the opposite than what everyone else is using today. The idea was to use the slower attack time on the sidechained compressor for the bass, and being the analog days of the SSL consoles, their slower attack time is around 30ms(dependent on the material). So, the inital transient of the bass would poke through those 30ms and would be in sync with the kick, because the kick would then duck the body of the bass. You get the initial transients of the kick and the snare happening at the same time and then the body of the bass gets lowered, solidifying the groove. Not a lot of gain reduction was used for this either, 1 to 3dB max.
Today everybody uses the fastest attack possible and slams the gain reduction up to 12dB, which is something I guess originated in electronic music, but more as an effect. Applying that technique to say a rock track with live drums and bass is disastrous. So there are completely different kick to bass sidechaining techniques dependent on the genre and the effect you are going for.
Also unrelated question: are you one of Mike's students? Whenever I hear "Cheers" at the end of the sentence I immediately think of him :)
@devianthousend Hehe...no not a Mike student. What you are saying is right in terms of what it does. TBH my trick is that I dont use the room sub to translate
How would you approach a track with an electric bass guitar or even synth bass that is busier and intentionally has dynamic variance built into the performance that grooves with the other instruments? I’m still trying I get to understand the manual bass volume leveling outside of avoiding adding 3rd order harmonics so it harmonizes better with the chords and other melodic parts. It was very cool to see and hear how the comp/limiter times can be calculated to match a frequency. I’ll even keep this in mind when I’m setting driven bass envelopes or VCAs in general for more or less 3rd order harmonics. Thank you!
Don’t try to understand what he said, it doesn’t make sense.
Dude is an Engineer literal audio science.
Thanks man!
It actually is. People who do this professionally are called audio engineers and I'm guessing Mr. Panorama Mastering is one of them if not producer or something else. All best
Great to see this and thanks for showing some of your mix process. Thanks 🔥
No problem 👍 any time
Knew I was onto something with pushing those 1.5-3k frequencies.
Some very good tips. Adding two observations.
1. Having your kick fundamental same level as your bass sub is something that very rarely happens and could be a trap for a beginner to follow blindly. Usually the kick fundamental sits between 3-7 db lower than the low Bass Sub fundamental when measured on a regular 6-8 LUFS master. I advise everyone to load their favorite records and measure on a spectrum analyzer. Having a loud kick fundamental not only changes the whole feel of the song but also can mess up your possibility of getting a loud mix in the end. Fast and loud transient on such a low frequency can lead to a big mess. Of course, there’s no rules, but this happens in 99% of pop, rap, dance current music.
2. Interesting leveling the bass notes like that through clip gain without also correlating with the actual spectrogram. You could have more high end or the harmonics could be at a different balance between each new notes and just by looking at the peak or rms measurement can result in notes that are inconsistent even if overall measured equally by RMS levels. I always like to load up Span, set it it highest resolution, have a secondary line just for the maximum level for each frequency and level by frequency automating an EQ, instead of looking just at the clip level overall.
Great share!
RE:
// 1 - This is just a starting point; the energy will almost always change; but it's always good to have a benchmark to start from so you know the point at which things are at equal energy; funilly enough I find more often that I've heard more commercial mixes with the fundamental of the kick louder; again this doesn't mean it's the CORRECT WAY; it's just a way to navigate and get your bearings; ultimately creative decisions win!
// 2 - You're right the harmonics can change between one notes to the next; sometimes I'll cut the high and low notes onto two seperate channels so I can process the lower notes with more harmonic saturation and the higher ones with an EQ to help balance them
@@panorama_masteringpart 1 sounds like a great video idea to dive deeper in!
All tutorials and tips I have watched so far say that the kick should be the loudest. I will defnitely try your suggestion though
No hard and fast rule on this but most pros and my own Span measurements show the kicks hit harder than the bass to give it the punch. However it probably depends on genre.
Point 1 is false and misleading for dance.
So, do you never compress your bass? I've been using this thing called Dyn1 (very good, multi-band comp) for a while to compress my sub. Sounds powerful. Are harmonics that low really that damaging to a mix? One more thing: I suppose I can use a low pass on an SSL bus comp on the master to avoid/reduce these problems with the sub. How about a limiter? Wouldn't that create the same problem and be unavoidable? Anyway, sorry for all the questions and appreciate your videos/knowledge.
I do sometimes; and sometimes I don't !
But when setting up the balance and energy of the low end; I avoid compressing
I got it, thank you, bru.@@panorama_mastering
Wow, thanks for such valuable tips!! By the way, the Kirchhoff concept but as a compressor is just released. Can't be more excited about it considering the Kirchhoff EQ is a beast of a plugin. What about a review of it soon? Thanks man!
Thanks for the info! Added to my list of plugins to try out; if it comes onto my arsenal for regular use; expect a video;
What's the name and brand of the compressor plugin?
@@RealHomeRecording Tokyo Dawn Labs.
Vision 4X is a great plugin for visualizing the kick/bass relationship + general analysis
Nice share!
This mix is insane! 🔥
thanks man!
Thanks bro, it would be awesome if you did an episode on mixing leads, synths
when you said "not sure whats going on here" it is the natural harmonic phase of the sinewave, which might be satured with odd harmonics but not going over Nyquist, that would be my first guess. ;)
Removing all dynamics from a naturally dynamic instrument (bass), removes the realism. It's almost universally accepted/objective that more dynamics sounds 'better' or more life-like when played loud-ish through decent speakers. This gives a closer impression to being at a concert, which most of us enjoy. The flipside being a squashed (loudness war casualty) master with most dynamics removed 'can' sound better through headphones, but through large speakers just sounds like headphones and introduces listener fatigue.
I do appreciate the science of minimizing sub-frequency phase, which I'll use to keep my mixes more dynamic for my taste.
Diggin it! Been rockin something similar to find the levels and groove of the bass and kick together
Super!
Hey Nicholas, I would love to know what is that thing that looks like a little Joystick in your left hand?
Teleprompter, I have video notes up on my camera.
Depends. Sometimes kick and bass sound better when they're actually" competing" in the same frequencies that way they sound more glued together
spot on!
So this envelope speed introducing the harmonic, has effectively created an audio illusion.
well done thank you ..u really opend my eyes with that fundamental issue
My pleasure! Thanks for watching
pls make one of these for house/techno.
There may be a masking effect between bass and kick. How do you solve this problem?
For me it was worth gold! thank you!
You're welcome!
How did they do this in the analogue world? I listen to old Eminem, 50 Cent Records and the low end is super tight. They didnt have all those analytic tools ? Somebody from the old days here - lets say early 2000?
EDIT: What I said didn't mean to diminish Nicholas' methods, he is making great work and content and it works for him.
IMHO, looking and detailing into analyzers is not the way... Having just a vu-meter or a Dorrough meter or something that shows average energy in a time window is about enough to determine if you have to much or too less energy in the low end and make the decisions, and having a spectrum analyzer showing a smoothed spectrum response is also enough, but not necessary, for sanity check....
Of course all of these meters should be used in correlation with the main analyzers we all have, our ears.
Feel ultimately wins; this was the science; and method to showcase the relative levels of the fundamentals and balance of them.
This is just a benchmark to set up from; the FEEL of the record ultimately takes priority which you can deviate towards as you mix;
ok, but back than the bass wasn't very deep. they basically had only the kick down there. it wasn't such a collision like we have now in EDM and modern pop
So that's why when I do Dimebag whammy bar shit, it creates a really cool perception of a lower fundamental. You confirmed my theory.🤣This is sick! Thanks man!
Banging!
Go into The Smile!!! As a guitarist take a listen to “The Thing” and “Under our Pillows”!!!
Great analysis and explanation!
You're welcome!
I love that you spit in the face of conventional styles and didn’t scoop things to make room.
It’s called Beat Frequency Oscillation. It’s also used for creating Alpha brain waves using headphones.
Aka binaural beats.
Thankful for you friend!
No sweat!
Wild that you can use the calculator directly in spotlight, bro's releasing videos from the year 3024
yeee it’s always a real pleasure to watch you mix !
by curiosity, which speakers do you listen to the mix on ?
Neuman KH310A
@@panorama_mastering thx😊
Waouu
So basically it went like this:
1. Suggested not to use compression because of THD induced.
2. Level automatization to get the same loudness.
3. As a result, bass sound farther in the mix (because absence of peaks generates that effect)
4. Increased lows in 1st layer of eq to get more loudness
5. Increased highs in 2nd layer of eq to get more perception of bass (highs are more dynamic, so more peaks and now this cancelled out the effect of point 2) and this will cause the bass to be closer in the mix
6. Distortion added to limit peaks previously added and also added character to the tone.
So basically you just did a compression but manually....
Why to avoid compression (based on the argument of avoiding harmonics) if then you are adding harmonics at the end of your chain with eq and distortion??
Cancellation will be caused because same frequencies are being played at same levels but at different times. All you have to do it to avoid it is chose different fundamentals and your cancellation will be gone. Just create space with eq. +3dB 30 hz and -3db 60hz for Bass and the opposite for kick and that's it.
I don't see the value of doing all those steps manually if you just combine eq (creating space) plus compression.
Also while doing all those EQ adjustments, you didn't compensate the increase in loudness as per best practices (using VU meters to make sure the EQ change the tone of the instrument without increasing volume)
Remember - none of the HUGE classic mixes that are benchmark references today used this technique. It was ALL done by ear.
I think I've made the mistake of presenting this as a technique rather than a discussion around the mechanics of low-end;
I get where you're coming from!
@@panorama_mastering OK, I see that.
Enlightening Lesson! Thank you master
Respect in the game +5 Stars
Oh man, I went YEARS without latching on to the bass level thing. As a synth guy, it's embarrassing. Of course when using a bass with a low pass filter, the higher notes will be quieter. Once I figured that out, the low end got a lot more consistent. My heavy handed solution was to limit the crap out of it. 🙃
the higher notes of the bass get quieter? or of other elements
God tier content, thank you
I thought the bass sounded too quiet compared to the kick. The concept of matching fundamental frequency volumes seemed to make the balance worse to me.
I think I spiked many lessons, but ill keep watching...
You gained a new follower
Great video. Cheers!
Many thanks! My pleasure!!
Great vidéo, thanks !
You're welcome!
Nicholas is the real MVP. I love this science based approach, what a legend.
I wish I had the patience to learn all this.
This good how can you do this in a stereo mix, dynamic eq to hit the fundamental frequencies of bass.
A different perspective: For live performance, it was always a thing that some bass notes project while others dip. From multiple environments and venues, patterns emerged. So the old-school trick (at the time) was to modify note attack and note selection depending on the song's key. However if volume corrections are all done 'in post', then, over time, choices made by the bassist are partially lost on the band and completely lost on the audience. A new genre begins to form. (A distant WUB is heard echoing in the forest)
What do you mean by modifying the note attack and selection?
@@gregorsalsaif I understand him, the bassist is aware that certain notes project better, and chooses notes knowing this. When you perfectly level the bassline, you're removing this decision that the bassist made. I sort of agree, in that you should only edit maybe 50% of the way to level - leaving in some of the dynamics
@@laughinginthe90s oh okay, got it. Thank you for taking the time 🙏🏼
Can I use TDR Prism in place of Infrasonic here?
Liked and subscribed, thank you for sharing your knowledge!
One question though - you said that you were going to boost the kick's fundamental to match it with fundamental of the bass but you boosted the kick above the fundamental, at around 170. It worked but i want to understand why)
A low shelf is a bit more smoother; having a notch/eq peak there would be a bit ringy and unatural;
@@panorama_mastering Oh, the shelf button was on. My bad) Thanks!
He’s been working on this tune for a while now, lol… I’m starting to like it.
“Chance to make it work” yeeeah 🤟🤓🤟
Wow. I’m just going to say thank you. Thank you!
(Subbed)
After watching this decided to put Soothe on bass and try to smooth out lowest fundamentals, it did change the sound for the better. Could this work?
I was gonna fix that equation, glad someone wrote it haha
Me TOO! Always happy to fuck it up and have others help!
My problem is with most maths I do is I fail to simplify the equations because I like to map out and logistically see how each variable contributes to solving the problem;
Great info here! Thank you 🙏
You're welcome!
If you have three kicks to make the kick of a track. Will the sub and knock kicks always be out of phase no matter what I do? So many EDM pros use at least two kicks. Some use three, sub, knock, click.
Use auto-align by Sound Radix!! :) Trust me on that one!
It's too expensive. Melda do a cheaper one for a quarter of the price, so I'll demo that and see if it helps. Auto Align is usually for large sessions with big drum kits.@@panorama_mastering
This might be a stupid question but isn’t you auto leveling the bass completely removing the artists velocity dynamics? Or is velocity dynamics in the bass bad or is this a subjective thing?
Tokyo dawn is slept on
SUPER slept on!
Just for my understanding: where is this number 5000 coming from? I have to say your new game plan in terms of upload freq. is quite remakable and i hope it pays off on the long run.
Original video; th-cam.com/video/TDixctLOhnM/w-d-xo.html
Recent update; th-cam.com/video/Xp0P7J-Z21A/w-d-xo.html
Amazing Show here! my new prime time Channel I guess... hope to see further Procontent. Thanx a lot
sheesh this was very helpful !
I'm glad ot hear!
Really really well done. Kudos.
8:02 I’m assuming copy pasting the pieces over only works if you already know the part is a perfect loop, yes? Otherwise you’d just be erasing any kind of evolving filtering or effects the producer put on that bassline. There’s gotta be a compressor out there that can do this without doing it manually. Mv2 perhaps?
Oh; absolutely correct; usually I'm stuck with the task of manually editing EVERY SINGLE NOTE!
I don't think you'd want me to add 30 minutes of manual editing into a video ;)
Great video. Why are the songs always so wack on mix videos?
Great work Sir 😊
Thanks 🙂
not realy a good song for a tutorial but that's pure taste... anyway your video confirmed my own findings in experimentations so thx... subscribed :)
Fair enough :) thanks for subbing, always happy to take on feedbackn
I am a bit confused about the phantom fundamental thing: when you show it I definitely can hear the big difference.
But you also said in other videos that pushing the highs of a mix lowers the perceived loudness of the bass and vice versa. Does this only apply to to a whole mix or did I get something wrong here?
Applies to the whole mix and general relative balance on the mix bus; not the individual tone of the bass;
Yo, listen you hear that?
0:57
Killers in the jungle
Ha! Wonderful!
air drumming skills on point xd