The difference between George and Jeff is that Jeff has the optimism of the potential of the new system because he lives in it and George has the pessimism of the old system because he lives in it.
Gammon is not qualified to speak on the subject and its boring when debates are lopsided. Would be better to host an og and propose the same questions to get competent answers
We all live in the old system. its impossible to put the globe on a "bitcoin standard" as the capacity of the chain just will not support that. It sounds great on paper but realistically that can't happen for all. Just math.
Gammon is not qualified to speak on the subject and its boring when debates are lopsided. Would be better to host an og and propose the same questions to get competent answers
george is an authoritarian apologist hack who keeps repeating his dumb points ad infinitum... hes been on this clownshow tirades about moneyprinting since breedlove and saylor
Jeff's thinking/evaluation/analyses definitely centered in the balance! He's also absolutely correct, that all of the so-called experts, as well others debating these subjects are INSIDE THE SYSTEMS, trying to measure those parameters against something new/revolutionary that's never been done in history. As far as human nature, the biggest (most effective, most powerful) factors are the proper incentives!
....as opposed to George's frustration with (what amounts to) his own lack of critical thinking skills, which first raises its ugly head beginning at 38:10
Wow! For the first time I start realizing how much pain it was for my prof to teach me something that I wasn't capable of understanding because of my hubris. Kudos Jeff 👏
Gammon is not qualified to speak on the subject and its boring when debates are lopsided. Would be better to host an og and propose the same questions to get competent answers
This was a great conversation! - we need a 2nd episode for sure. It took me several episodes to understand Jeff's thesis, same as it did for Peter. Thank you all 3 of you for making this happen!
Thanks Peter for bringing this debate to us. Great to see the debate with out fist fighting these days or throwing personal threats if the debate is online. Great to see people open to hear other side of argument. The main point of the whole discussion happened at 1:25:00 onwards. George thinks fractionalization happens even on Bitcoin standard and Banks will increase M2 supply. Jeff says then those banks will go bust over the time. George even agrees that most of them will go bust. Jeff says that will put the discipline back on the remaining entities. Great conclusion. Thanks again...
Gammon: Humans will always want to borrow and get yield. Booth: And under bitcoin they'll get wrecked. Gammon: But humans will always want to borrow and get yield. Booth: Yeah, but under bitcoin they'll get wrecked. (5 more times at least) Booth is correct. Human nature has never had to modify because it could be pacified with funny money. Bitcoin represents a new constraint that rent seekers will have to adapt to.
Exactly 💯 . I was thinking the same. I'm like, what doesn't George get about that? You can't have something for nothing. And bitcoin won't allow cheating.
Gammon's point ( i think) is that the rules of Bitcoin would come under pressure to be modified to allow more than 21 million, such would be the demand from human nature - fwiw i think it's a very good point, I don't see how a bitcoin standard works without credit creation, did it work in the past with gold?
@@PatrickN.What you are missing is that human nature is immutable. Humans are the only life form on this planet that aggregates resources far in excess of what they need to survive(btw squirrels don’t even come close to how much humans hoard). Greed is a human constant. As fantastic as BTC is(btw I’m a fan)human greed rules all. Even BTC can not change that. George is correct.
As a rent seeker I will never adapt to that. TPTB will never have a system without borrowing and yield earning.. Booth's assumption assumes everyone will go to btc and that won't happen. While it sounds great the reality is it won't and physically can't happen. Doesn't have the technical capability. Thats not pessimism.....thats reality.
Yes, I'm reading this judgment being tossed at George when what I see is my buddy working through ways BTC may be weak in an attempt to better understand. Not that Jeff is full of bias, but two minds are better than one. Thanks for your pragmatism.
@@AllNighterHeiderlooking for weaknesses in it is one thing, and it's great. All great maxis have done that, and came to a conclusion. Jeff, Saylor, all of them. However, it does seem pretty evident that George in this video is more worried about winning a debate and defending his ideas and point rather than learning and being open minded. That's the problem with the vast majority of debates. Regardless what is presented to someone, most people just dig in and choose to die on their hill, rather than accept looking at something another way. I personally think Jeff has analyzed far more, been more open minded, and has more conviction in his view.
Gammon is not qualified to speak on the subject and its boring when debates are lopsided. Would be better to host an og and propose the same questions to get competent answers
Love this! I think the biggest point of contention is George believes people are fundamentally bad and will corrupt Bitcoin. Jeff understands Bitcoin restrains greed and bad actors. It removes the instability and inequality of the fiat system. So even if a pandemic happens again, people will be better off on a Bitcoin standard. I choose to believe in hope and Jeff.
@@Maxknell Bad actors have tried to corrupt bitcoin (blocksize wars, ftx, celcius) to make temporary fiat system conditions, and they get wrecked?! Over and over... It's already working "in reality". Prove its not?
I don't think George is a Hobbesian, let alone a Han Fei pessimist. Those authors built their political theories around the assumption that humans are fundamentaly bad, hence the need of a Leviathan (Hobbes) or an absolute burocratic government that administers punishment (Han Fei). You're probably too idealistic. George recognizes the flawed -not inherently bad- nature of humans. Classical liberalism, which in the anglo word mutated into libertarianism, understands that people are egoistical. It is this element of human nature that allows growth and expansion, and also brings about business cycles. It's the appetite for risk and volatility. I'm still waiting for a bitcoiner to properly adress the question of credit. Jeff couldn't in this debate. They imagine a perfectly smooth loanable funds market, such as the orthodox Austrians, where demand for credit is matched with its supply (savings) by the way of an esoteric natural interest rate. Such theory predicts a nice secular growth. Wouldn't that be amazing?
What George doesn't realize is that the money printing was necessary to fund the pandemic otherwise, the pandemic wouldn't have happened. The fractional reserve banking system funds "distortions" and "crisis". On a bitcoin system, these things don't happen.
I love that you have 2 people on that disagree, I always get so stimulated when you have people that criticize bitcoin from the outside so that you can have the greatest minds like Jeff booth defend bitcoin and shed even more light on the differences and finer details.
1. Zeitgeist 2. 3rd Industrial Revolution 3. Jeff Booth The circle is almost complete Great discussion well done Peter for putting these two heavy weights together probably best TH-cam I’ve watched since coming to Bitcoin in 2019 🙏🏽🙏🏽 You guys should of been at Amsterdam on one of the panels
Great discussion. But George is missing a point here. He thinks there will be fractual reserve because people are greedy and the market will provide it. Thats wrong. Here is why: We now have this system where banks carry no risk. If the debt goes default, the central bank pays a visit and bails them out. We only have this easy credit world, because banks have no risk! In a Bitcoin world the bank will lend you 1 Bitcoin, and you will have to give them a security for it. Lets say a house. Bitcoin will rise in value continously and it will get harder and harder to pay it back. The bank will call you and say: hey either give us a second house or we liquidate you because Bitcoin is rising. The bank knows: there is No one who can bail them out; there is No one who can print Bitcoin! Credit will be very very expenisve and very dangerous. That will lead to the point where people Don't want credit anymore. They will avoid credit like a plague, because they know it will kill them. That's the new Bitcoin world. People will want to work and save, and avoid credit! And I think that was what Jeff wanted to say but just could not find the words.
A world without credit is not only massively deflationary (loans and lending de-incentivized) but that also causes much slower velocity of money and economic growth. Human history has always had credit and it would be foolish to think it won't in the future ("this time it's different"). Consider this - If less loans go out (for this example removal of fractional reserve banking) people earn less yield/return on savings. At the same time less entrepreneurs/businesses will be able to acquire credit and loans to start up businesses. Productivity and innovation will come down massively in that world. Lastly in a Bitcoin monetary system we would experience a deflationary bust far greater then 1920s. In that scenario at least Zoomers would be less worried about their pronouns, Instagram accounts and micro aggressions 😄
just started watching the video but I agree with a couple caveats: there will be leverage on top but lenders will be far more careful about who they lend to, it'll have to outpace the CAGR of BTC. also it depends what we end up using as collateral. If people are okay accepting, for example, BTC derivatives as collateral like a futures contract that they know has an extremely liquid market they can go into and redeem they might not care that it isn't real bitcoin. it serves the same purpose. But ofc that leverage will still unravel the same way it does every business cycle. Again, just less because of the attractiveness of holding the collateral itself
One important point that was brought up by Jeff and Peter was that learning about Bitcoin and the economy changes you. Peter talked about the time horizon, indicating that things like delayed gratification and less use of debt will come into play. But, also, Bitcoin, together with social media, the internet and the failing of the current fiat system will all be massive learning lessons for everyone. George assuming everyone will want a similar type of economic system in that we will want to borrow, stimulus cheques etc. is based on the assumption that everyone's perspective and knowledge of the world is how it is now. Which is impossible
Excellent conversation. Great so see two v intelligent people engaging in passionate discourse without becoming shout fests. I learnt a lot. Well done ❤
This is going to be compelling. I listen to George a lot but even though I have never owned any Bit coin I can see that the ledger has to be held by the people, it's the only way forward for things to evolve in spite of the risks.
Juat finished the interview.. absolutely loved it. May have to listen to the last quarter again juat to clarify where they botn ended in agreement with the summary.
George, Jeff and Peter. The way conversation should be. Thank you all for the thought provoking insights and the inspirational example. There’s still hope 😂
Really wonderful, thanks to all three , particularly good because it remained so respectful ..... I'll be recommending this video to anyone really wondering on the overall subject of the world's currency future
As George has said, the government could come to take your BTC in taxation to replace the silent taxation of inflation...but its a little harder to syphon your pocket when they rely on your vote. It will force devolution imo. Great chat, couple of my favourites in the finance space! 👏❤
Which is an incompetent take that has been refuted 10 other ways, namely that taxation is impossible to enforce and such non compliance increases with decentralization
@@Aaron565until you become an AI you are in meatspace and as such governments around the world are very good at getting what they legislate is due to them. Tax is how they get senior mafia in the US and if Bitcoin gets really valuable against fiat then when you use it you will be accruing massive capital gains taxes and penalties for not paying. So you may enjoy your smug outlook from behind bars one day.
The first hour of George’s point could be put to bed by explaining that banks can create fiat money, they can’t create bitcoin. Full stop. No credit creation, no fractional reserve.
He also thinks "human nature" precludes people's ability to respond to incentives... as if the human race was born to chase after credit as opposed to it being a trained response because of the incentives.
I worked with drug addicts for over 10 years. I know intimately the thought process and the rationalizations, the enabling of outside influences and many other factors that go into the perpetuation of addictive behavior. To a person who is not an addict, the behavior of an addict is self destructive, irrational, and after some time you start to realize it will never change. But on the rare occasion that an addict breaks free of their addiction and changes not just their behavior, but their heart and mind, about some of the most fundamental things regarding life, liberty, responsibility and consequences The strangest thing happens. They become free of the addictive behavior. This is a microcosm of what’s happening between the two systems that Gammon and Booth are talking about. Gammon it is stuck in the addiction mentality. It’s a hopeless, helpless mindset that fails to be able to see a way out. Jeff booth is living in the free mentality, that looks at the addict and just can’t quite get them to see past their addiction. The world is addicted to fiat money, fiat food, Fiat Church, Fiat everything. I don’t know if a bitcoin standard will cause a mass conversion on a global scale, but I do know that it happened to me and many other people I know.
Amazing point. It is drilled into the addicts head to see the other way of life. People places and things are all replaced with something different and better. Jeff is saying everything will be replaced with something different and better. You have to radically change to get free from addiction. Just like we have to radically change to get away from this system. However George is saying most addicts don’t recover and make that change. I still need to be convinced that Bitcoin is the only answer to escape fiat corruption. I need more education. I know fiat is horrible for many reasons just don’t know how to escape it. Thanks for your comment!
Trying to be fair here but Jeff definitely won this debate. George just refers gold from 1800s which were totally talking a different asset and different incentives
Lol. He is correct in a theoretical model. Sadly, we live in the real world where greedy humans rule the world. Though I hope Jeff will be correct, the reality is as of today, George is correct. Bitcoiners need to live here in the real world.
@@ocavantso yall like theft as the base line for everything, love the lies, that is why I say screw my parents and give me a better world that don't rely on theft and lies...smdh😮
Wow, this was an amazing episode! Jeff is a visionnary, I totally agree with him on his view. I also appreciate George, but he is stuck in the fiat mind. If govts are small, they won’t be able to fund a pandemic ever again to scare people…but I think first it will get much worse before it gets better.
Sounds like you're confusing George's understanding of human nature and history (why it repeats/rhymes) with his skepticism of Bitcoin monetary system. He's not arguing to keep any old systems in place. He's always looking at probabilities where we're headed (based on macro analysis from fairly wide range of people including Lyn Alden) so he can be best prepared and positioned. Other considerations to take into account (wonder how many people in this channel do) is massively inverted yield curve and knowing we're in a 4th turning and how those usually play out. Hint 4th turnings usually turn into more collectivism (cough Communism/Socialism) not less.
You don't see any value in playing devils advocate to strengthen conviction? Your one single mind has it all figured out and we should all blindly trust your understanding without working towards our own personal understanding? You seem to perceive George as anti BTC. I see George as thoughtfully considering how BTC could be undermined in an attempt to get a better understanding. This is what rational people do. Was your conviction in BTC not strengthened as a result of listening? Or were you too busy typing your judgement to have gained anything?
George’s argument is like saying “I like cars but I still think people will keep eating sausages”. The latter point being entirely irrelevant to the former.
I loved this podcast. Two very smart heavyweights going back and fourth. George showed me a different angle to view the future in regards to bitcoin and the current system we live in, which is hard since I was orange pilled
George is smart and I like him but he does not understand bitcoin ….he is like the guy who said the internet will never amount anything more than a typewriter
That criticism of George is as valid as a criticism of a Nobel winning cosmologist who doesn’t accept a multiverse model “must” exist. Misplaced certainty is not a good look in science or economics.
The bitcoin Utopua is a possible world. That was George's whole arguement that you don't get. It does exist yet. And there is only a pissibility it will exist, not a certainty.
I am kind of freaking out right now as I think I just heard Gammon ask Booth who isn’t going to want to borrow money to buy a house or a car?? I mean if you ask the question this way instead….do you enjoy being in debt? Personally I would rather be debt free and work less and spend more time on things that I really love…family-friends-good times-good food-good drugs-good communication-good….you get my point. If you really had a choice you would choose the good and bitcoin is that choice. If you opt in and hodl….it doesn’t matter how small a piece you get your hands on…you are part of the network when you possess it and you being a free thinking being have the ability to hop in and out of it whenever you like…not like the hotel California….
I think in George point of view, why people want interest on their saving and want a loan to purchase (house or other goods) is because we live in the inflationary monetary system, but if all item price is deflationary against the money (ie bitcoin) then people don’t want to purchase instead they will choose to use as services not own, why u paid interest for deflationary assets more make sense to use as service and pay fraction of it. And if money value is keep appreciating, people won’t mind to save their money without interest even willing to pay services, same thing with people pay fee for bank to save (custody) their gold
I wonder if that means that in a Bitcoin standard, fewer and fewer people would want to own their own homes? Why own a depreciating asset when you can just rent it ? Although I don't see people paying Banks or external custodians to store their bitcoins. Because that introduces counterparty risk that is not worth it
I had been waiting to hear from Jeff Booth for a while. This discussion is so great. Thank you you big beautiful brains for having this discussion and letting me listen in on this very insightful conversation
George’s point on btc potentially centralizing if it’s widely used by the average joe and Jane is actually a good point. 1800s people were on a gold standard and chose a yield over just holding their gold and benefiting from deflation. But Jeff’s point is good too. You had to put your gold in the bank. Self custody wasn’t an option. So now we are in a new era where security and decentralization are achievable.
George's point is very good indeed. He seems to understand the human psyche better. Jeff is trying hard to get his thesis across but is failing here. At least in this interview. He needs to polish his thesis. I want so much to believe Jeff but so far it has been slabber.
The world is not going on a Bitcoin standard because power always seeks to be centralized, and people tend to always vote for more government power. I agree with George's thesis.
M2 doesn't tell the entire story. There are more dollars floating around the world today than in the 1800's by far. Banks in America and offshore create dollars every day
That was an honest, genuine and respectful debate that i learn from. We need more of theses exchange on any topics in the world. It would so mush easier to advance forward and progress as a nation instead of being divided. Good job !
One thing that I wish that Jeff had pointed out when it comes to people dealing with fractional reserve paper bitcoin is that it can be distinguished from actual bitcoin instantly. In the deflation era that George is referring to, nearly all gold was traded as paper, and paper that was fully backed couldn't be reliably distinguished from paper that wasn't backed. The only way to test it was to go collect the gold. People couldn't opt out. Whereas with bitcoin, this isn't true. The only thing required to protect oneself from a fractional service is to refuse to trade except for true bitcoin. By doing so, only those who participate in a fractional system can suffer it's destruction.
I was looking for an answer to the "fractional reserve question" and i think you answered it.. so basically, those who participate in the credit/paper BTC will not have protection, whereas those that hold spot BTC in their own wallets, will benefit from its scarcity vs. inflation.
Good discussion. I was a little shocked by a few of Jeff's ideas about human nature, such as people will just shift to saving money to buy houses with cash, or will just move countries when they feel like it. As an international person myself, I can vouch for the fact that that is WAY harder than wealthy or well-traveled people appreciate. There are such things as friends and family, and George nailed it - try selling your wife and kids on El Salvador, good luck with that. Jeff has been hanging around wealthy intellectual idealists too long. I give the nod to George on this one - Jeff did not adequately counter George's point that the government and banking elites will fight dirty as hell to win. Govt's could make Bitcoin illegal tomorrow if their power is threatened. That is always the elephant in the room. Jeff says their power IS threatened. So what is the case for why they won't be able to fight dirty, when all they've been doing is fighting dirty since forever? Are all the world's major banks just going to say "aw shucks, I guess the common man wins this time"?
I think you're forgetting houses and other expenses things will fall in cost under BTC dominance- that's what has already happened in bitcoin. Jeff mentioned that; my house was 30 BTC, now it's 8 for example. People purchase of a 400k house would not be 150k, a lot more doable as bitcoin makes everything cheaper over time; the reverse of inflationary fiat. Also this is based on something that's emerging. Of course governments will fight it. But they will fail; just like prohibition failed, the war on drugs, etc. It only make the prohibited thing more expensive and never stops people who want it from buying/selling. Difference is it will be much harder to stop since there's nothing physical like in the case of drugs. Even weed eventually became legal because people pushed back on that. As to the banks; they want to make money just like everyone else, and if holding BTC benefits them, they will do it.
Great episode! I love both of these guys takes and it just makes it that much more exciting going forward on how Bitcoin will change the world going forward.
Jeff seems very adamant about how things are going to work out rather than flexible and realistic like George. Both guys have very valid points, George seems to be far more based in reality.
@@dontcare916 He doesn't suggest they are dumb. They are used to fractional reserve. People want to be able to take out loans for cars and homes. When Booth said...just save up and pay for a home in BTC.... he lost me. Pie in the sky not realistic.
@@davidvick5968 if people can save up and pay for a home in US dollars, why can't you do it in BTC? In fact you are better off saving in BTC than us dollars since the dollar loses value, while BTC gains value in the longer run. His point was very much valid
Jeff's thinking/evaluation/analyses definitely centered in the balance! He's also absolutely correct, that all of the so-called experts, as well others debating these subjects are using information/parameters & data points from INSIDE THE EXISTING SYSTEMS. Therefore, they are trying to measure (compare with) mostly archaic (physically/mentally embedded for many generations) factors/parameters, against something new/revolutionary that's never been done in history. As far as human nature, the biggest (most effective, most powerful) factors are the proper incentives!
I don't agree he embarrassed himself, I think he brought good points about the human nature and fractional reserve banking, I enjoyed listening to it's point of view. 🙂
But somewhere I disagree with him is I think people in the future will make a clear distinction between what is Bitcoin, the real Bitcoin and paper Bitcoin being affected by all this fractional reserve shenanigan... people will want to hold the real deal and not this fake IOU which will tend to be worth less than the real one...
Thanks Peter. I was always thinking George had something that would threaten bitcoin that i didnt understand. Thanks for contrasting him with Jeff and now making me even MORE convicted for a bitcoin future. Jeff clearly explained to George all his concerns and he still doesnt get it. He will all have his epiphany sooner or later. Once you see it, you can't un see it. Poor George. He's just to stuck in the current system and its way of thinking.
@@Maxknell He did. He clearly explained credit could and would exist on a bitcoin standard but bubbles would break and collapse sooner and less severely. George kept referring to the late 1800s for his example of credit expansion. Why didn't he mention that that the bubbles corrected faster and more frequently with less damage than they do today? He didn't. But they did. And we didn't have the fed and the economy boomed. It was better on the gold standard but he pretended it was just as bad as it is today. Natural disasters would be the same. Without government control of the money, things would actually work out more quickly. You just can't have something for nothing and George can't seem to wrap his head around that.
This is a great conversation! Great work moderating Peter. Gammon forgets that people move all the time. Look no further than the migration to Florida, and Texas due to taxes and health mandates.
The difference between George and Jeff is that Jeff has the optimism of the potential of the new system because he lives in it and George has the pessimism of the old system because he lives in it.
Totally. Jeff's book was a true eye opener for myself.
He not only lives in it but reinforces his prison by podcasting about it.
Well said! Gammon a fearful pessimist. Jeff the optimist.
Gammon is not qualified to speak on the subject and its boring when debates are lopsided. Would be better to host an og and propose the same questions to get competent answers
We all live in the old system. its impossible to put the globe on a "bitcoin standard" as the capacity of the chain just will not support that. It sounds great on paper but realistically that can't happen for all. Just math.
Both of these guys challenged me to reevaluate how I think about Bitcoin vs fiat. Fantastic discussion. We need more of this sort of thing. Well done.
What in your evaluation changed?
me too
This is great! A civilized discussion between adults, not the usual debate yelling and talking past each other. And well done Peter!
Gammon is not qualified to speak on the subject and its boring when debates are lopsided. Would be better to host an og and propose the same questions to get competent answers
george is an authoritarian apologist hack who keeps repeating his dumb points ad infinitum... hes been on this clownshow tirades about moneyprinting since breedlove and saylor
What an incredible debate and thanks for keeping it respectful guys!
Only Jeff Booth could pull off such a cordial ending to such an intense debate at times. 😁😁 Jeff is pure Zen. 😁
Jeff's thinking/evaluation/analyses definitely centered in the balance! He's also absolutely correct, that all of the so-called experts, as well others debating these subjects are INSIDE THE SYSTEMS, trying to measure those parameters against something new/revolutionary that's never been done in history.
As far as human nature, the biggest (most effective, most powerful) factors are the proper incentives!
@@evoluidotechvelhawisdom5814and once people realize and see to the incentive to switch to a superior system, it’s game over for fiat.
....as opposed to George's frustration with (what amounts to) his own lack of critical thinking skills, which first raises its ugly head beginning at 38:10
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
Other than the fact he traps animals for fun. Insanely cruel.
Wow! For the first time I start realizing how much pain it was for my prof to teach me something that I wasn't capable of understanding because of my hubris. Kudos Jeff 👏
1:23:50
So true.
Gammon is not qualified to speak on the subject and its boring when debates are lopsided. Would be better to host an og and propose the same questions to get competent answers
This was a great conversation! - we need a 2nd episode for sure. It took me several episodes to understand Jeff's thesis, same as it did for Peter. Thank you all 3 of you for making this happen!
Thanks Peter for bringing this debate to us. Great to see the debate with out fist fighting these days or throwing personal threats if the debate is online. Great to see people open to hear other side of argument. The main point of the whole discussion happened at 1:25:00 onwards. George thinks fractionalization happens even on Bitcoin standard and Banks will increase M2 supply. Jeff says then those banks will go bust over the time. George even agrees that most of them will go bust. Jeff says that will put the discipline back on the remaining entities. Great conclusion. Thanks again...
This is one of the best conversations on the future of bitcoin and what a bitcoinized world will look like that I have ever listened to. Thank you!
Thank you George for presenting your arguments in this panel. I'm sure a lot of people appreciate it.
Gammon: Humans will always want to borrow and get yield.
Booth: And under bitcoin they'll get wrecked.
Gammon: But humans will always want to borrow and get yield.
Booth: Yeah, but under bitcoin they'll get wrecked.
(5 more times at least)
Booth is correct. Human nature has never had to modify because it could be pacified with funny money. Bitcoin represents a new constraint that rent seekers will have to adapt to.
Exactly 💯 . I was thinking the same. I'm like, what doesn't George get about that? You can't have something for nothing. And bitcoin won't allow cheating.
Gammon's point ( i think) is that the rules of Bitcoin would come under pressure to be modified to allow more than 21 million, such would be the demand from human nature - fwiw i think it's a very good point, I don't see how a bitcoin standard works without credit creation, did it work in the past with gold?
@@PatrickN.What you are missing is that human nature is immutable. Humans are the only life form on this planet that aggregates resources far in excess of what they need to survive(btw squirrels don’t even come close to how much humans hoard). Greed is a human constant. As fantastic as BTC is(btw I’m a fan)human greed rules all. Even BTC can not change that.
George is correct.
As a rent seeker I will never adapt to that. TPTB will never have a system without borrowing and yield earning.. Booth's assumption assumes everyone will go to btc and that won't happen. While it sounds great the reality is it won't and physically can't happen. Doesn't have the technical capability. Thats not pessimism.....thats reality.
yes. bitcoin favors workers and savers, fiat favors owners and borrowers.
It's good we're having these conversations no matter how difficult.
Yes, I'm reading this judgment being tossed at George when what I see is my buddy working through ways BTC may be weak in an attempt to better understand. Not that Jeff is full of bias, but two minds are better than one.
Thanks for your pragmatism.
@@AllNighterHeiderlooking for weaknesses in it is one thing, and it's great. All great maxis have done that, and came to a conclusion. Jeff, Saylor, all of them.
However, it does seem pretty evident that George in this video is more worried about winning a debate and defending his ideas and point rather than learning and being open minded. That's the problem with the vast majority of debates. Regardless what is presented to someone, most people just dig in and choose to die on their hill, rather than accept looking at something another way.
I personally think Jeff has analyzed far more, been more open minded, and has more conviction in his view.
Gammon is not qualified to speak on the subject and its boring when debates are lopsided. Would be better to host an og and propose the same questions to get competent answers
Love this! I think the biggest point of contention is George believes people are fundamentally bad and will corrupt Bitcoin. Jeff understands Bitcoin restrains greed and bad actors. It removes the instability and inequality of the fiat system. So even if a pandemic happens again, people will be better off on a Bitcoin standard. I choose to believe in hope and Jeff.
@@Maxknell Bad actors have tried to corrupt bitcoin (blocksize wars, ftx, celcius) to make temporary fiat system conditions, and they get wrecked?! Over and over... It's already working "in reality". Prove its not?
I don't think George is a Hobbesian, let alone a Han Fei pessimist. Those authors built their political theories around the assumption that humans are fundamentaly bad, hence the need of a Leviathan (Hobbes) or an absolute burocratic government that administers punishment (Han Fei). You're probably too idealistic. George recognizes the flawed -not inherently bad- nature of humans. Classical liberalism, which in the anglo word mutated into libertarianism, understands that people are egoistical. It is this element of human nature that allows growth and expansion, and also brings about business cycles. It's the appetite for risk and volatility.
I'm still waiting for a bitcoiner to properly adress the question of credit. Jeff couldn't in this debate. They imagine a perfectly smooth loanable funds market, such as the orthodox Austrians, where demand for credit is matched with its supply (savings) by the way of an esoteric natural interest rate. Such theory predicts a nice secular growth. Wouldn't that be amazing?
@@MaxknellI think Jeff did touch on this. The greedy leverage. Then rug. Bitcoin price goes up. Rinse and repeat until paradigm shift is complete.
What George doesn't realize is that the money printing was necessary to fund the pandemic otherwise, the pandemic wouldn't have happened. The fractional reserve banking system funds "distortions" and "crisis". On a bitcoin system, these things don't happen.
@@Maxknellsupply cap.
Excellent conversation. Much respect and gratitude to all of you. Thank you!
I love that you have 2 people on that disagree, I always get so stimulated when you have people that criticize bitcoin from the outside so that you can have the greatest minds like Jeff booth defend bitcoin and shed even more light on the differences and finer details.
Wow, rational discussion between two people.. very nice to listen to this..
THANK YOU so much to all three of you for finally doing this! I learned a lot.
It's great to see both perspectives. I'm more inclined to what Jeff believes.
Wow! I loved the ending! It ended very cordial! And they found the core issue they were talking past each other in the other 90 minutes. Thanks Peter.
Jeff is just fantastic! far above and beyond than most in the space
Peter, please do more of these! This was great!
Thank you for bringing these 2 gentlemen together. This conversation was stimulating thought provoking and thoroughly enjoyable.
Really enjoyed this calm, well reasoned discussion. I follow all three and enjoy and ponder each point of view.
1. Zeitgeist
2. 3rd Industrial Revolution
3. Jeff Booth
The circle is almost complete
Great discussion well done Peter for putting these two heavy weights together probably best TH-cam I’ve watched since coming to Bitcoin in 2019 🙏🏽🙏🏽
You guys should of been at Amsterdam on one of the panels
Great discussion. But George is missing a point here. He thinks there will be fractual reserve because people are greedy and the market will provide it. Thats wrong. Here is why: We now have this system where banks carry no risk. If the debt goes default, the central bank pays a visit and bails them out. We only have this easy credit world, because banks have no risk! In a Bitcoin world the bank will lend you 1 Bitcoin, and you will have to give them a security for it. Lets say a house. Bitcoin will rise in value continously and it will get harder and harder to pay it back. The bank will call you and say: hey either give us a second house or we liquidate you because Bitcoin is rising. The bank knows: there is No one who can bail them out; there is No one who can print Bitcoin! Credit will be very very expenisve and very dangerous. That will lead to the point where people Don't want credit anymore. They will avoid credit like a plague, because they know it will kill them. That's the new Bitcoin world. People will want to work and save, and avoid credit!
And I think that was what Jeff wanted to say but just could not find the words.
good comment
A world without credit is not only massively deflationary (loans and lending de-incentivized) but that also causes much slower velocity of money and economic growth. Human history has always had credit and it would be foolish to think it won't in the future ("this time it's different"). Consider this - If less loans go out (for this example removal of fractional reserve banking) people earn less yield/return on savings. At the same time less entrepreneurs/businesses will be able to acquire credit and loans to start up businesses. Productivity and innovation will come down massively in that world. Lastly in a Bitcoin monetary system we would experience a deflationary bust far greater then 1920s. In that scenario at least Zoomers would be less worried about their pronouns, Instagram accounts and micro aggressions 😄
just started watching the video but I agree with a couple caveats: there will be leverage on top but lenders will be far more careful about who they lend to, it'll have to outpace the CAGR of BTC. also it depends what we end up using as collateral. If people are okay accepting, for example, BTC derivatives as collateral like a futures contract that they know has an extremely liquid market they can go into and redeem they might not care that it isn't real bitcoin. it serves the same purpose. But ofc that leverage will still unravel the same way it does every business cycle. Again, just less because of the attractiveness of holding the collateral itself
That doesn’t sound like a fun world - how do you get a university degree or start a business without credit?
THAT'S what Jeff should have told George and the audience. To the point, thank you.
This was a fantastic example of a civil disagreement and a great quality dialog. Beneficial for anyone watching.
One important point that was brought up by Jeff and Peter was that learning about Bitcoin and the economy changes you. Peter talked about the time horizon, indicating that things like delayed gratification and less use of debt will come into play.
But, also, Bitcoin, together with social media, the internet and the failing of the current fiat system will all be massive learning lessons for everyone. George assuming everyone will want a similar type of economic system in that we will want to borrow, stimulus cheques etc. is based on the assumption that everyone's perspective and knowledge of the world is how it is now. Which is impossible
Excellent conversation. Great so see two v intelligent people engaging in passionate discourse without becoming shout fests. I learnt a lot. Well done ❤
This is going to be compelling. I listen to George a lot but even though I have never owned any Bit coin I can see that the ledger has to be held by the people, it's the only way forward for things to evolve in spite of the risks.
Exactly, things don't have to play how they did in the past. Evolution, things can evolve and change.
It's a vote for a better future, IMO
Very cordial discussion and a great example to others. Disagree without getting angry and raising your voice.
george needs to let jeff finish explaining more often
Thank you for recording and posting this excellent debate.
This was great, one of the best discussions on bitcoin
Juat finished the interview.. absolutely loved it. May have to listen to the last quarter again juat to clarify where they botn ended in agreement with the summary.
George, Jeff and Peter. The way conversation should be. Thank you all for the thought provoking insights and the inspirational example. There’s still hope 😂
Great conversation! I love Booth but my opinion of Gammon just went way up. Thanks.
Phenomenal - thanks Peter, Jeff and George 👍
Really wonderful, thanks to all three , particularly good because it remained so respectful ..... I'll be recommending this video to anyone really wondering on the overall subject of the world's currency future
Jeff is talking about what the world will look like in 100 years, George is talking about the next 20.
Great discussion. I hope you have more of these!
As George has said, the government could come to take your BTC in taxation to replace the silent taxation of inflation...but its a little harder to syphon your pocket when they rely on your vote. It will force devolution imo. Great chat, couple of my favourites in the finance space! 👏❤
no they cant. you can just refuse to pay. lock me up. idc. you are never getting any more of my btc us government after ftx. fuck u
My government does it at this moment in time 🤣But only if I sell it.
Which is an incompetent take that has been refuted 10 other ways, namely that taxation is impossible to enforce and such non compliance increases with decentralization
@@Aaron565 taxation is anywhere and always impossible to enforce, yet with severe punishment and a few statuary examples, people end up self-enforcing
@@Aaron565until you become an AI you are in meatspace and as such governments around the world are very good at getting what they legislate is due to them. Tax is how they get senior mafia in the US and if Bitcoin gets really valuable against fiat then when you use it you will be accruing massive capital gains taxes and penalties for not paying. So you may enjoy your smug outlook from behind bars one day.
Peter, thanks for hosting this, I love these guys!!!!!
The first hour of George’s point could be put to bed by explaining that banks can create fiat money, they can’t create bitcoin. Full stop.
No credit creation, no fractional reserve.
Exactly!
but that brings its own issues no?
Great video, thank you to all three of you
George is confusing saving with investing.
He also thinks "human nature" precludes people's ability to respond to incentives... as if the human race was born to chase after credit as opposed to it being a trained response because of the incentives.
@@josep3776 Excellent. Agreed completely.
I worked with drug addicts for over 10 years. I know intimately the thought process and the rationalizations, the enabling of outside influences and many other factors that go into the perpetuation of addictive behavior. To a person who is not an addict, the behavior of an addict is self destructive, irrational, and after some time you start to realize it will never change. But on the rare occasion that an addict breaks free of their addiction and changes not just their behavior, but their heart and mind, about some of the most fundamental things regarding life, liberty, responsibility and consequences The strangest thing happens. They become free of the addictive behavior. This is a microcosm of what’s happening between the two systems that Gammon and Booth are talking about. Gammon it is stuck in the addiction mentality. It’s a hopeless, helpless mindset that fails to be able to see a way out. Jeff booth is living in the free mentality, that looks at the addict and just can’t quite get them to see past their addiction. The world is addicted to fiat money, fiat food, Fiat Church, Fiat everything. I don’t know if a bitcoin standard will cause a mass conversion on a global scale, but I do know that it happened to me and many other people I know.
Amazing point. It is drilled into the addicts head to see the other way of life. People places and things are all replaced with something different and better.
Jeff is saying everything will be replaced with something different and better.
You have to radically change to get free from addiction.
Just like we have to radically change to get away from this system.
However George is saying most addicts don’t recover and make that change.
I still need to be convinced that Bitcoin is the only answer to escape fiat corruption. I need more education. I know fiat is horrible for many reasons just don’t know how to escape it. Thanks for your comment!
Trying to be fair here but Jeff definitely won this debate. George just refers gold from 1800s which were totally talking a different asset and different incentives
No one won anything...there was nothing to win
Lol. He is correct in a theoretical model. Sadly, we live in the real world where greedy humans rule the world. Though I hope Jeff will be correct, the reality is as of today, George is correct.
Bitcoiners need to live here in the real world.
@@ocavantso yall like theft as the base line for everything, love the lies, that is why I say screw my parents and give me a better world that don't rely on theft and lies...smdh😮
Actually he mentioned 5000 years of human civilisation and human nature.
@@ocavantyes. And those greedy people who run the World are gold collectors and probs bitcoin as well
Thanks for making this happen. Excellent discussion. Both have strong points, it's really about probabilities. Great conclusion in the end.
Me and George gammon are literally in sync with our probability outlook. Great guy
💯
Unfortunately, he seems to understand the human psyche better.
Very good podcast. High quality discussion and analysis of possible futures. Well done to all three.
George needs to read Jeffs' book
Fantastic interview. Really enjoyed it. Thanks.
Wow, this was an amazing episode! Jeff is a visionnary, I totally agree with him on his view. I also appreciate George, but he is stuck in the fiat mind. If govts are small, they won’t be able to fund a pandemic ever again to scare people…but I think first it will get much worse before it gets better.
Brilliant conversation gentlemen! ❤ Thank You! 💯
Listening to George is like listening to a buggy manufacturer in the year 1900 say, "No, no, cars will never take over!"
Sounds like you're confusing George's understanding of human nature and history (why it repeats/rhymes) with his skepticism of Bitcoin monetary system. He's not arguing to keep any old systems in place. He's always looking at probabilities where we're headed (based on macro analysis from fairly wide range of people including Lyn Alden) so he can be best prepared and positioned. Other considerations to take into account (wonder how many people in this channel do) is massively inverted yield curve and knowing we're in a 4th turning and how those usually play out. Hint 4th turnings usually turn into more collectivism (cough Communism/Socialism) not less.
At least he says that he likes the idea of a car, and understands that the car is a improvement over a horse and buggy
You don't see any value in playing devils advocate to strengthen conviction?
Your one single mind has it all figured out and we should all blindly trust your understanding without working towards our own personal understanding?
You seem to perceive George as anti BTC. I see George as thoughtfully considering how BTC could be undermined in an attempt to get a better understanding. This is what rational people do.
Was your conviction in BTC not strengthened as a result of listening? Or were you too busy typing your judgement to have gained anything?
Smart but very little vision for a world different from what he's known.
George’s argument is like saying “I like cars but I still think people will keep eating sausages”. The latter point being entirely irrelevant to the former.
I loved this podcast. Two very smart heavyweights going back and fourth. George showed me a different angle to view the future in regards to bitcoin and the current system we live in, which is hard since I was orange pilled
Jeff booth is running laps around George in this debate, George can’t comprehend a world outside the existing system
George is smart and I like him but he does not understand bitcoin ….he is like the guy who said the internet will never amount anything more than a typewriter
Is it that George doesn't comprehend or that he doesn't think the world will comprehend?
That criticism of George is as valid as a criticism of a Nobel winning cosmologist who doesn’t accept a multiverse model “must” exist. Misplaced certainty is not a good look in science or economics.
@@willissmalls7100lol george is like everyone when it came down to the internet, jeff is like the one invested in the internet...
The bitcoin Utopua is a possible world. That was George's whole arguement that you don't get. It does exist yet. And there is only a pissibility it will exist, not a certainty.
Gammon is the most reasonable Devil's Advocate - thanks for airing this conversation 💯. Happy 2024 you guys!
Oh yes cant wait for this!! Fantastic 💯 ⚡️ 🧡
I loved this discussion. One of the best this year. ❤️
This needs to happen again!
Really appreciate your podcasts, Peter. :)
I am kind of freaking out right now as I think I just heard Gammon ask Booth who isn’t going to want to borrow money to buy a house or a car?? I mean if you ask the question this way instead….do you enjoy being in debt? Personally I would rather be debt free and work less and spend more time on things that I really love…family-friends-good times-good food-good drugs-good communication-good….you get my point. If you really had a choice you would choose the good and bitcoin is that choice. If you opt in and hodl….it doesn’t matter how small a piece you get your hands on…you are part of the network when you possess it and you being a free thinking being have the ability to hop in and out of it whenever you like…not like the hotel California….
Amazing! Thank you guys for a hell of a discussion!
I think in George point of view, why people want interest on their saving and want a loan to purchase (house or other goods) is because we live in the inflationary monetary system, but if all item price is deflationary against the money (ie bitcoin) then people don’t want to purchase instead they will choose to use as services not own, why u paid interest for deflationary assets more make sense to use as service and pay fraction of it. And if money value is keep appreciating, people won’t mind to save their money without interest even willing to pay services, same thing with people pay fee for bank to save (custody) their gold
You will have no equity in an environment of deflationary services. Real value requires an underlying asset.
I wonder if that means that in a Bitcoin standard, fewer and fewer people would want to own their own homes? Why own a depreciating asset when you can just rent it ? Although I don't see people paying Banks or external custodians to store their bitcoins. Because that introduces counterparty risk that is not worth it
I had been waiting to hear from Jeff Booth for a while. This discussion is so great. Thank you you big beautiful brains for having this discussion and letting me listen in on this very insightful conversation
George’s point on btc potentially centralizing if it’s widely used by the average joe and Jane is actually a good point. 1800s people were on a gold standard and chose a yield over just holding their gold and benefiting from deflation. But Jeff’s point is good too. You had to put your gold in the bank. Self custody wasn’t an option. So now we are in a new era where security and decentralization are achievable.
Except with gold, you don't benefit from deflation, as the supply is not fixed and it's gone through several supply shocks.
George's point is very good indeed. He seems to understand the human psyche better. Jeff is trying hard to get his thesis across but is failing here. At least in this interview. He needs to polish his thesis. I want so much to believe Jeff but so far it has been slabber.
Such a great idea to hear both sides. Absolutely fantastic. Thank you all three!
The world is not going on a Bitcoin standard because power always seeks to be centralized, and people tend to always vote for more government power. I agree with George's thesis.
Love this conversation. I learn so much from Jeff Booth!
Damn good episode! Only time will tell if human’s will act in their own self interest by sacrifice in the short term.
Great show Peter. Would love to hear a follow-up show with these two to game play the fiat banking with Bitcoin and how they all fail eventually.
Great discussion. George brought out the important differences of the FED balance sheet and M2 “currency units” and how money gets “printed”
that damn Jeff Snider guy must have got to 'em
M2 doesn't tell the entire story. There are more dollars floating around the world today than in the 1800's by far. Banks in America and offshore create dollars every day
george is clueless repeating that nonsense ad infinitum
That was an honest, genuine and respectful debate that i learn from. We need more of theses exchange on any topics in the world. It would so mush easier to advance forward and progress as a nation instead of being divided. Good job !
Episode should be called "Orange-pilling George."
One thing that I wish that Jeff had pointed out when it comes to people dealing with fractional reserve paper bitcoin is that it can be distinguished from actual bitcoin instantly. In the deflation era that George is referring to, nearly all gold was traded as paper, and paper that was fully backed couldn't be reliably distinguished from paper that wasn't backed. The only way to test it was to go collect the gold. People couldn't opt out. Whereas with bitcoin, this isn't true. The only thing required to protect oneself from a fractional service is to refuse to trade except for true bitcoin. By doing so, only those who participate in a fractional system can suffer it's destruction.
I was looking for an answer to the "fractional reserve question" and i think you answered it..
so basically, those who participate in the credit/paper BTC will not have protection, whereas those that hold spot BTC in their own wallets, will benefit from its scarcity vs. inflation.
George is impatient much like a child.
Amazing conversation!
How do you get the 3-5% yield on lightening?? Just by having btc in your wallet, or is there more to it?
Good discussion. I was a little shocked by a few of Jeff's ideas about human nature, such as people will just shift to saving money to buy houses with cash, or will just move countries when they feel like it. As an international person myself, I can vouch for the fact that that is WAY harder than wealthy or well-traveled people appreciate. There are such things as friends and family, and George nailed it - try selling your wife and kids on El Salvador, good luck with that. Jeff has been hanging around wealthy intellectual idealists too long. I give the nod to George on this one - Jeff did not adequately counter George's point that the government and banking elites will fight dirty as hell to win. Govt's could make Bitcoin illegal tomorrow if their power is threatened. That is always the elephant in the room. Jeff says their power IS threatened. So what is the case for why they won't be able to fight dirty, when all they've been doing is fighting dirty since forever? Are all the world's major banks just going to say "aw shucks, I guess the common man wins this time"?
I think you're forgetting houses and other expenses things will fall in cost under BTC dominance- that's what has already happened in bitcoin. Jeff mentioned that; my house was 30 BTC, now it's 8 for example. People purchase of a 400k house would not be 150k, a lot more doable as bitcoin makes everything cheaper over time; the reverse of inflationary fiat. Also this is based on something that's emerging. Of course governments will fight it. But they will fail; just like prohibition failed, the war on drugs, etc. It only make the prohibited thing more expensive and never stops people who want it from buying/selling. Difference is it will be much harder to stop since there's nothing physical like in the case of drugs. Even weed eventually became legal because people pushed back on that. As to the banks; they want to make money just like everyone else, and if holding BTC benefits them, they will do it.
This is a good synopsis. Maybe it makes more sense the longer time goes on? Wish I had a crystal ball...
Wow. What a great discussion. Thank You!
George doesn’t Get the nuts and bolts of Bitcoin. He needs more study so he is, as Jeff says, down to the sand.
Great episode! I love both of these guys takes and it just makes it that much more exciting going forward on how Bitcoin will change the world going forward.
Jeff seems very adamant about how things are going to work out rather than flexible and realistic like George. Both guys have very valid points, George seems to be far more based in reality.
George is based in fiat reality.
@@dontcare916 He doesn't suggest they are dumb. They are used to fractional reserve. People want to be able to take out loans for cars and homes. When Booth said...just save up and pay for a home in BTC.... he lost me. Pie in the sky not realistic.
@@davidvick5968 if people can save up and pay for a home in US dollars, why can't you do it in BTC? In fact you are better off saving in BTC than us dollars since the dollar loses value, while BTC gains value in the longer run. His point was very much valid
Let's go! Didn't expect this. I love both these guys.
George, you are not always the smartest person in the room. Let Jeff speak please.
Iron sharpens Iron, this is a debate not a lecture.
Really?!? What about Peter? Crazy idea but perhaps moderators should stay in their lane and, you know, just MODERATE!
@@JPs-q1oPeter did a fine job..
It def goes both ways
@@JPs-q1oPeter barely said two words, what are you talking about??
Jeff's thinking/evaluation/analyses definitely centered in the balance! He's also absolutely correct, that all of the so-called experts, as well others debating these subjects are using information/parameters & data points from INSIDE THE EXISTING SYSTEMS. Therefore, they are trying to measure (compare with) mostly archaic (physically/mentally embedded for many generations) factors/parameters, against something new/revolutionary that's never been done in history.
As far as human nature, the biggest (most effective, most powerful) factors are the proper incentives!
Gammon doesn’t mind embarrassing himself for engagement
Exactly! 😂
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
😂 I have to Agree.
I don't agree he embarrassed himself, I think he brought good points about the human nature and fractional reserve banking, I enjoyed listening to it's point of view. 🙂
But somewhere I disagree with him is I think people in the future will make a clear distinction between what is Bitcoin, the real Bitcoin and paper Bitcoin being affected by all this fractional reserve shenanigan... people will want to hold the real deal and not this fake IOU which will tend to be worth less than the real one...
1:17:30 Peter is absolutely right! Bitcoin changes the attitude completely!
Thank you! proof of work by incentivizing energy production rewards the bottom of the economic stack
One of the best episodes yet. 🙌
Jeff booth is not only brilliant, but has the most soothing voice. Great debate!
This was excellent guys. Much appreciated
George suddenly became less aggressive the moment he found out Jeff is Canadian. lol.
😂 🇨🇦
The comments at 1:29:00 ish about fractional reserve banking not being able to survive on a bitcoin standard are spot on.
Thanks Peter. I was always thinking George had something that would threaten bitcoin that i didnt understand. Thanks for contrasting him with Jeff and now making me even MORE convicted for a bitcoin future. Jeff clearly explained to George all his concerns and he still doesnt get it. He will all have his epiphany sooner or later. Once you see it, you can't un see it. Poor George. He's just to stuck in the current system and its way of thinking.
@@Maxknell He did. He clearly explained credit could and would exist on a bitcoin standard but bubbles would break and collapse sooner and less severely. George kept referring to the late 1800s for his example of credit expansion. Why didn't he mention that that the bubbles corrected faster and more frequently with less damage than they do today? He didn't. But they did. And we didn't have the fed and the economy boomed. It was better on the gold standard but he pretended it was just as bad as it is today. Natural disasters would be the same. Without government control of the money, things would actually work out more quickly. You just can't have something for nothing and George can't seem to wrap his head around that.
Great level headed conversation. Thx to you all.
This is a great conversation! Great work moderating Peter. Gammon forgets that people move all the time. Look no further than the migration to Florida, and Texas due to taxes and health mandates.
So glad george did this interview. I really enjoyed it.
"The Great Taking"
scary book - WBD should try to invite the author on the show
Thanks and great respectfully conversation which we need more of ! Part 1 of many I hope !